Aberdeen Runway Occupancy
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Aberdeen Runway Occupancy
Folks,
Dunno if you can help with this - flew to Aberdeen the other day in a 738 in windy and rainy conditions. The runway isn't particularly long, and as we were relatively heavy, the decision made was the slam on the anchors to make sure we stopped then roll to the end. As it happens, we got stopped pretty quickly and then continued to roll, yet we were heavily chastised by the controller for making such an action.
How closely spaced are the arrivals at ABZ? We had an Eastern Airways prop behind us which isn't particularly fast on approach, and it didn't seem that busy on the ground. I wasn't impressed with the tone ATC took with us after that!
One of the things that came to mind is what is written in our airfield briefs, do they get shown to ATC? Do they have input in the way it's written? The brief for ABZ makes note of the short runway and the need to avoid floating/delaying brake application. Feedback appreciated.
Horgy
Dunno if you can help with this - flew to Aberdeen the other day in a 738 in windy and rainy conditions. The runway isn't particularly long, and as we were relatively heavy, the decision made was the slam on the anchors to make sure we stopped then roll to the end. As it happens, we got stopped pretty quickly and then continued to roll, yet we were heavily chastised by the controller for making such an action.
How closely spaced are the arrivals at ABZ? We had an Eastern Airways prop behind us which isn't particularly fast on approach, and it didn't seem that busy on the ground. I wasn't impressed with the tone ATC took with us after that!
One of the things that came to mind is what is written in our airfield briefs, do they get shown to ATC? Do they have input in the way it's written? The brief for ABZ makes note of the short runway and the need to avoid floating/delaying brake application. Feedback appreciated.
Horgy
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I'm curious about the term heavily chastised? If you were told to expedite vacating,then that is standard R/T.Anything else then you have a point,and perhaps a phone call to the watch manager might have been in order.
There is a "standard gap" procedure at Aberdeen which gives spacing of 8nm between fixed wings and a speed limit of 160kt from 8nm from touchdown. Helicopters are spaced at 6nm from whatever is in front as it crosses the threshold.
The tower controller can suspend this procedure when traffic permits and allow radar to pack them in. In this case the turboprop would have been 4nm behind you if it was a Saab 2000 or 6nm if it was a Jetstream 41. In a nil headwind condition, it could have got tasty if you stopped completely on the runway and then rolled gently to the end.
BTW, don't believe that turboprops are not particularly fast on approach. I've seen them do 220kts to 4nm. Try that in your 738 with our titchy runway!
The tower controller can suspend this procedure when traffic permits and allow radar to pack them in. In this case the turboprop would have been 4nm behind you if it was a Saab 2000 or 6nm if it was a Jetstream 41. In a nil headwind condition, it could have got tasty if you stopped completely on the runway and then rolled gently to the end.
BTW, don't believe that turboprops are not particularly fast on approach. I've seen them do 220kts to 4nm. Try that in your 738 with our titchy runway!
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738 into ABZ.Kind of narrows the operators down a bit....To be sure.
I've seen Eastern do 250 kts to 4nm with the Saab 2000.Even some of the new EC225 helis will do 160kts to well inside 4nm.
On 16 there is no high or low speed turn off for a 738.It's to the end always.On 34 it's slightly better with W4,but we still see aircraft more often than not go to the end.
The 8 mile gap is to provide vortex spacing after helis with a light following.Applies to landing on the same and crossing runway,and to departures from certain holding points.
We quite often will pack traffic to help the inbounds and radar.If we have to operate standard gaps ,there will he holding.Often the first to complain is a certain 738 operator.
We don't see what airlines brief about ABZ,but we are very aware of the short runway.That's why we try to avoid operating will a tailwind component as much as possible.Also we are aware that 737 have automatic brake selection,and can come to a grinding halt.But then we have 460 movements a day,and it would be nice if aircraft didn't occupy the runway too long.
I've seen Eastern do 250 kts to 4nm with the Saab 2000.Even some of the new EC225 helis will do 160kts to well inside 4nm.
On 16 there is no high or low speed turn off for a 738.It's to the end always.On 34 it's slightly better with W4,but we still see aircraft more often than not go to the end.
The 8 mile gap is to provide vortex spacing after helis with a light following.Applies to landing on the same and crossing runway,and to departures from certain holding points.
We quite often will pack traffic to help the inbounds and radar.If we have to operate standard gaps ,there will he holding.Often the first to complain is a certain 738 operator.
We don't see what airlines brief about ABZ,but we are very aware of the short runway.That's why we try to avoid operating will a tailwind component as much as possible.Also we are aware that 737 have automatic brake selection,and can come to a grinding halt.But then we have 460 movements a day,and it would be nice if aircraft didn't occupy the runway too long.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 7th Feb 2009 at 17:30.
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The mighty Jetstream 31/32 will quite happily sit at 230knts (VMO) until 4d and you will be fully configured and stable by 2.5D and if brought back to 160knts there is no rush to bring the speed back after that. I won't bother telling you what she can do empty with a 15knt headwind on a visual. I suspect the Gama Kingair would be similar if not faster.
At 160 you will be flap 10. At 3D gear down flap 20 speed will have washed off to 145knts 2D flap 35 and then 135knts to 200ft. The 135 until 200ft is a BAe limitation not a company limit. Over the fence at 101-109knots. Touchdown into beta not rev no need to touch the brakes unless heavy and you will easy make the heli runway to backtrack.
Sometimes especially if the TP is coming in from the south the area controllers stitch the app controller up a treat by trying to get a Jet in front of a TP below 10k. It never works and always ends up with the approach controller working 10 to the dozen and the TP with an extra 5-10 mins of flight.
Although I do feel for the controllers the couple of times they have arranged things so we can nip in on a visual down the Don valley first. The amount of grumping and moaning off the shuttle was comical, I can see why the can't be bothered. They weren't even on tower by the time we went to ground.
At 160 you will be flap 10. At 3D gear down flap 20 speed will have washed off to 145knts 2D flap 35 and then 135knts to 200ft. The 135 until 200ft is a BAe limitation not a company limit. Over the fence at 101-109knots. Touchdown into beta not rev no need to touch the brakes unless heavy and you will easy make the heli runway to backtrack.
Sometimes especially if the TP is coming in from the south the area controllers stitch the app controller up a treat by trying to get a Jet in front of a TP below 10k. It never works and always ends up with the approach controller working 10 to the dozen and the TP with an extra 5-10 mins of flight.
Although I do feel for the controllers the couple of times they have arranged things so we can nip in on a visual down the Don valley first. The amount of grumping and moaning off the shuttle was comical, I can see why the can't be bothered. They weren't even on tower by the time we went to ground.
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James T,
Hmmm
Let's see why.An airfield the size of a postage stamp,with not enough stands.Some of the most varied traffic in the world.Constant bitching from certain operators why they are number 2 instead of number 1.Helis training thinking they are top priority and complaining when they are last.S
ite pay for Nats.Pension going down the toilet.I could say more.
OK sometimes people might get a bit shirty,but I bet they have been provoked.I just say any complaints to the watch manager on the phone,and let them bite your head off.
Hmmm
Let's see why.An airfield the size of a postage stamp,with not enough stands.Some of the most varied traffic in the world.Constant bitching from certain operators why they are number 2 instead of number 1.Helis training thinking they are top priority and complaining when they are last.S
ite pay for Nats.Pension going down the toilet.I could say more.OK sometimes people might get a bit shirty,but I bet they have been provoked.I just say any complaints to the watch manager on the phone,and let them bite your head off.
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i have haerd a couple of people say that ABZ ATC have got a bit 'shirty on occassion'.
OK sometimes people might get a bit shirty,but I bet they have been provoked.I just say any complaints to the watch manager on the phone,and let them bite your head off.
ing Dan Air 082 descending FL90".This took the controller somewhat by surprise but he was even more shocked when the pilot kept referring to his flight as "fu
ing Dan Air 082".When he finally plucked up courage to ask the pilot why he was using a non-standard callsign, he was asked to listen to the ATIS. There in the background, but as clear as a bell was another controller saying "Where is the fu
ing Dan Air 082"!
A simple warning if your going to be longer than usual on the runway should avoid any chastising. The runway isn't a sightseeing attraction. Get off there as quick as you can, wherever you fly.
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As letMfly says, its true- I heard the story from one of the people involved... If memory serves me right, the DAN081 was the last flight of the day, and once landed the Radar Controller could go home (leaving the TWR Controller there until official close time). The Assistant was recording the ATIS and that was when the Controller uttered the words (not thinking that the ATIS was being recorded and might pick them up!).
Thats the gist of it, as remembered through an alcoholic fog
Thats the gist of it, as remembered through an alcoholic fog
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The biggest shock of the story is that the DAN AIR could actually get the ATIS from as far away as Perth.
Many a time over St Abbs after giving up on the VOR ATIS wondering how the hell is Manchester Ground clear as a bell here when I can't hear them on stand 1. Yes I know its only a departure ATIS and we shouldn't be using it,
Many a time over St Abbs after giving up on the VOR ATIS wondering how the hell is Manchester Ground clear as a bell here when I can't hear them on stand 1. Yes I know its only a departure ATIS and we shouldn't be using it,
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A very helpful insight, that's for your comments.
Indeed, I think it might have been a pack it in moment. Your right with the 737 we have autobrake 2,3 or max. Max is never normally used unless it's somewhere like ABZ, and especially in the wet weather. We did infact stop where we could have vacated by the heli runway but were instructed to keep rolling - I appreciate that could have irked the controller, but his tone was what put me off. I wasn't going to "dob him in" because we all have bad days.
I'll forward what you guys have mentioned to the CP and maybe he can bung some in the Aberdeen brief for us, it's certainly useful information. I didn't know props could rocket around like that!
Horgy
Indeed, I think it might have been a pack it in moment. Your right with the 737 we have autobrake 2,3 or max. Max is never normally used unless it's somewhere like ABZ, and especially in the wet weather. We did infact stop where we could have vacated by the heli runway but were instructed to keep rolling - I appreciate that could have irked the controller, but his tone was what put me off. I wasn't going to "dob him in" because we all have bad days.
I'll forward what you guys have mentioned to the CP and maybe he can bung some in the Aberdeen brief for us, it's certainly useful information. I didn't know props could rocket around like that!
Horgy
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Mr Horgy,
I'm still curious about this thing about the tone of the controller.If you landed on 16 and could have vacated down 32/A4,it causes real problems for Ground getting you into Stand 1-5 against the flow.Also there is a major confliction with the helis.Tower are trying to help you.
If you landed on 34 and could make 23/D2,it isn't always possible.There could be a heli holding at C3,and Tower must co-ordinate that with GMC.If they say no then forget it.Also you come into conflict with helis landing on 32.
In any case Tower told you to continue rolling.Standard R/T.Vacate at whatever taxiway.Unless you say what chastising you got,I can only presume that the controller used standard R/T to get you off the runway ASAP.If that was the case,then there is no case to answer.
I'll try an get a EC225 heli to chase the 738 down the ILS.Probably catch up inside 5nm.
I'm still curious about this thing about the tone of the controller.If you landed on 16 and could have vacated down 32/A4,it causes real problems for Ground getting you into Stand 1-5 against the flow.Also there is a major confliction with the helis.Tower are trying to help you.
If you landed on 34 and could make 23/D2,it isn't always possible.There could be a heli holding at C3,and Tower must co-ordinate that with GMC.If they say no then forget it.Also you come into conflict with helis landing on 32.
In any case Tower told you to continue rolling.Standard R/T.Vacate at whatever taxiway.Unless you say what chastising you got,I can only presume that the controller used standard R/T to get you off the runway ASAP.If that was the case,then there is no case to answer.
I'll try an get a EC225 heli to chase the 738 down the ILS.Probably catch up inside 5nm.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 8th Feb 2009 at 18:51.
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It was for runway 16. We were at taxiing speed by the intersection with 14/32. The conversation went along the lines of:
"Cont: RYRXXX Keep rolling please, I have traffic close on finals BREAK Eastern XXX reduce to minimum app speed"
"Eastern XXX: We're bringing it back"
"Cont: RYRXXX That's really not where i'd expect you to stop, I have traffic behind you close in, and it'll screw things up. Keep the speed up"
"RYRXXX: Wilco"
I can see his justification for behind irate, but the tone he used was how i'd assume you'd address your problem child. Condescending, and sarcastic. I didn't report it as I don't think it would have achieved anything.
Horgy
"Cont: RYRXXX Keep rolling please, I have traffic close on finals BREAK Eastern XXX reduce to minimum app speed"
"Eastern XXX: We're bringing it back"
"Cont: RYRXXX That's really not where i'd expect you to stop, I have traffic behind you close in, and it'll screw things up. Keep the speed up"
"RYRXXX: Wilco"
I can see his justification for behind irate, but the tone he used was how i'd assume you'd address your problem child. Condescending, and sarcastic. I didn't report it as I don't think it would have achieved anything.
Horgy
MrHorgy, Trust me - we aren't all as bad as the individual who displayed a less than professional attitude to the job at Aberdeen. There are about twenty-five of us valid on tower and, after reading your recollection of events, I am pretty certain on who it was. More importantly, I think that he will recognise himself on PPRUNE and hopefully be shamed into modifying his attitude.
There is NO EXCUSE for lecturing, bollocking, being sarcastic or shouting at pilots on the R/T, no matter how experienced or otherwise that pilot is. All that achieves is to display to others on frequency what an insecure/poor controller you are. It can also be detrimental to safety, by distracting pilots and breaking their concentration.
I would encourage any pilot to phone in and discuss poor ATCO behaviour with the Watch Manager/Supervisor as it provides valuable "ammunition" to help address that behaviour.
letMfly
There is NO EXCUSE for lecturing, bollocking, being sarcastic or shouting at pilots on the R/T, no matter how experienced or otherwise that pilot is. All that achieves is to display to others on frequency what an insecure/poor controller you are. It can also be detrimental to safety, by distracting pilots and breaking their concentration.
I would encourage any pilot to phone in and discuss poor ATCO behaviour with the Watch Manager/Supervisor as it provides valuable "ammunition" to help address that behaviour.
letMfly
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Well i'll certainly consider it in future, our 25minute turn arounds don't allow much time for such matters!
I'm sure it was an isolated incident. I've been to Swanwick, Manchester, and various towers across the UK and always been impressed, and pleased to meet the guys on the other side of the scope. The Highland and Island guys were especially friendly (probably because they only dealt with 2 movements per day
)
Didn't realise Aberdeen was so busy though, with all that Heli traffic, hats off to you!
Horgy
I'm sure it was an isolated incident. I've been to Swanwick, Manchester, and various towers across the UK and always been impressed, and pleased to meet the guys on the other side of the scope. The Highland and Island guys were especially friendly (probably because they only dealt with 2 movements per day
)Didn't realise Aberdeen was so busy though, with all that Heli traffic, hats off to you!
Horgy