UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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"Some of us do, however in a democratic society it's the majority who rule. Maybe its time to break away from the non operational ATC types in the office who understandably are concerned about their jobs, and form another union so we are not dragged down with them. That way they can keep their jobs and their pay cut, and others will get the pay rise . The united we stand, divided we fall rule is no longer working for us, at the moment we are all falling"
Erm, I hope that you are joking about this. To start thinking about this course of action just smacks of utter selfishness. What you are suggesting is tantamount to having ATCOs doing their own thing, and fcuk everybody else. Any move to promote this would bring the 'us and them' issue (which has been discussed on here many times - and totally refuted by the ATCOs!!
) into the starkest relief possible. What a good ploy for engendering the team spirit!
If that's the way things (and thoughts) are going, then it really will be time for many to put the coat on and head out the door, 'cos the atmosphere at work would be as pleasant as a silent eggy fart in an overloaded stuck lift.
DC10RM - PM for you.
Erm, I hope that you are joking about this. To start thinking about this course of action just smacks of utter selfishness. What you are suggesting is tantamount to having ATCOs doing their own thing, and fcuk everybody else. Any move to promote this would bring the 'us and them' issue (which has been discussed on here many times - and totally refuted by the ATCOs!!
) into the starkest relief possible. What a good ploy for engendering the team spirit!If that's the way things (and thoughts) are going, then it really will be time for many to put the coat on and head out the door, 'cos the atmosphere at work would be as pleasant as a silent eggy fart in an overloaded stuck lift.
DC10RM - PM for you.
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White hart I could not agree with you more. I have read this and the pensions thread with growing concern. It appears that many people on here make an assumption that management are stupid and do not know what they are doing. This could not be further from the truth. A short trawl back over these post sees ATCO's against CTC against ATSA's against Engineers. NSL against NERL. Productivity against profit. This atmosphere is exactly what they are trying to create. Every topic posted on Natsnet right now is deliberately engineered to lower the morale of the workforce. You doubt me? Compare the posts from one year ago and look at the tone and wording used.
Management are deliberately attempting to create splits within the workforce so that they can use the collective bargaining of the workforce against us.
In the case of the present negotiations they state the economic situation to propose a mediocre pay rise that is dependent on changes to working practices agreements. Those changes ( for the most part) only affect NSL units thereby splitting the majority NERL vote. This they do this at the same time as making ATSA's and CTC personnel redundant. They claim hardship but will still post a profit for this year and despite there doom and gloom for the following 12 months will still pay a dividend to the shareholders.
Management are deliberately attempting to create splits within the workforce so that they can use the collective bargaining of the workforce against us.
In the case of the present negotiations they state the economic situation to propose a mediocre pay rise that is dependent on changes to working practices agreements. Those changes ( for the most part) only affect NSL units thereby splitting the majority NERL vote. This they do this at the same time as making ATSA's and CTC personnel redundant. They claim hardship but will still post a profit for this year and despite there doom and gloom for the following 12 months will still pay a dividend to the shareholders.
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Diary of a possible redundantee, 18 years air traffic experience ( area procedural, area radar, ground ,tower and approach now an ATSA)
DAY 1 -Received an email the other day ( from [email protected]), I quote " EFPS introduction requires that a number of ATSA posts are no longer needed". Thats a pretty smart system, here was me thinking that it just dealt with the strip processing but no apparently it deals with unit staffing requirements as well. Just as well, management havent got a clue what the hells going on!
Day 2 [email protected] informs me I need to attend an interview with respect to voluntary redundancy can I possibly attend at 11-00 Thursday or 13-00 Friday. Reply that 11-00 Thurs is a bit tight because I have just come off a night shift and need some sleep. 13-00 Fri would be better because I can come in early whilst I am in to cover the back shift of the ATSA that they never bothered to replace.
Day 3 Get reply. Interview 11-00 Thurs.
Day 4 Night shift (Dont take a break cos its snowing all night and know that aircraft need the latest conditions )
Day 5 Guess what its snowing again.
Day 6 Get 2 hours sleep and come in for my interview. They tell me I can ask questions at any time... So How many ATSA's are you looking to get rid of? will remain? Im sorry cant tell you that.
So what will the duties of an ATSA be once EFPS come in.... Im sorry cant tell you that.
So what will be the working roster of an ATSA once EFPS comes in....Im sorry cant tell you that.
To be be fair to the guy from HR he did for a second look a bit embarrassed!
This company is going down the plughole so quickly ( God I used to be so proud to work here), the experience is just being allowed to drift away and god help the rest of us that are left. If you are having any problems just email faceless.nats.uk apparently he has all the answers!!!!!
Baggy
DAY 1 -Received an email the other day ( from [email protected]), I quote " EFPS introduction requires that a number of ATSA posts are no longer needed". Thats a pretty smart system, here was me thinking that it just dealt with the strip processing but no apparently it deals with unit staffing requirements as well. Just as well, management havent got a clue what the hells going on!
Day 2 [email protected] informs me I need to attend an interview with respect to voluntary redundancy can I possibly attend at 11-00 Thursday or 13-00 Friday. Reply that 11-00 Thurs is a bit tight because I have just come off a night shift and need some sleep. 13-00 Fri would be better because I can come in early whilst I am in to cover the back shift of the ATSA that they never bothered to replace.
Day 3 Get reply. Interview 11-00 Thurs.
Day 4 Night shift (Dont take a break cos its snowing all night and know that aircraft need the latest conditions )
Day 5 Guess what its snowing again.
Day 6 Get 2 hours sleep and come in for my interview. They tell me I can ask questions at any time... So How many ATSA's are you looking to get rid of? will remain? Im sorry cant tell you that.
So what will the duties of an ATSA be once EFPS come in.... Im sorry cant tell you that.
So what will be the working roster of an ATSA once EFPS comes in....Im sorry cant tell you that.
To be be fair to the guy from HR he did for a second look a bit embarrassed!
This company is going down the plughole so quickly ( God I used to be so proud to work here), the experience is just being allowed to drift away and god help the rest of us that are left. If you are having any problems just email faceless.nats.uk apparently he has all the answers!!!!!
Baggy
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White Hart..
Like I said , The united we stand, divided we fall rule is no longer working for us, at the moment we are all falling"
So what do you suggest ? The present set up has seen our pension screwed, no ferking pay rise and job cuts right left and centre with morale at rock bottom
. Just wait till our terms and conditions are changed and we eventually end up being shafted by our new owners in a couple of years time. All because some of us 
don't have the balls to put up a fight. We should at least die with our boots on.
Like I said , The united we stand, divided we fall rule is no longer working for us, at the moment we are all falling"
So what do you suggest ? The present set up has seen our pension screwed, no ferking pay rise and job cuts right left and centre with morale at rock bottom
. Just wait till our terms and conditions are changed and we eventually end up being shafted by our new owners in a couple of years time. All because some of us don't have the balls to put up a fight. We should at least die with our boots on.
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I think it's time to consider operational and non-operational staff going their separate ways when it comes to negotiations on t&c's.
It's unfair, and frankly selfish of the atcos to expect non-op staff to support them in their claims when expectations on pay and pensions are obviously so wide apart.
Atco's should do the decent thing and breakaway to allow office staff and other non-op personnel the freedom to accept deals offered by the company that operational staff are perhaps reluctant to commit to.
It's unfair, and frankly selfish of the atcos to expect non-op staff to support them in their claims when expectations on pay and pensions are obviously so wide apart.
Atco's should do the decent thing and breakaway to allow office staff and other non-op personnel the freedom to accept deals offered by the company that operational staff are perhaps reluctant to commit to.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Atco's should do the decent thing and breakaway to allow office staff and other non-op personnel the freedom to accept deals offered by the company that operational staff are perhaps reluctant to commit to.
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SN,
I got the impression that some non-op staff on here felt atco's were greedy and had little awareness of economic reality so i thought they'd welcome the opportunity to plow their own furrow.
Maybe i'm wrong.
I got the impression that some non-op staff on here felt atco's were greedy and had little awareness of economic reality so i thought they'd welcome the opportunity to plow their own furrow.
Maybe i'm wrong.
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Despite the fact that any 'breakaway' would be a bad thing, would it not be encumbant on the 'office staff and other non-op personnel' to initiate the breakaway themselves. No one's holding them back, they're not sheep.
I'm not so sure about that
ps I hope you guys in PD dont get too excited with the photo
Last edited by Vote NO; 30th Mar 2009 at 11:33.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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I look worse than that now............and I don't even work in an office!
Alfie, I'm not saying your wrong, but I suspect that the office staff and non-ops guys are quite happy to stick with the ATCOs. After all, they can watch us do all the shouting and screaming while keeping their heads down.
I'm not sure that ATCOs are 'greedy', but we all want to earn as much as poss. I'm acutely aware that any number of health problems could see my licence taken away, problems that wouldn't necessarily affect the earning power of a desk jockey. I want as much as I can get my mitts on so I can pay off the mortgage early, that doesn't make me, or any other ATCO greedy.
Alfie, I'm not saying your wrong, but I suspect that the office staff and non-ops guys are quite happy to stick with the ATCOs. After all, they can watch us do all the shouting and screaming while keeping their heads down.
I'm not sure that ATCOs are 'greedy', but we all want to earn as much as poss. I'm acutely aware that any number of health problems could see my licence taken away, problems that wouldn't necessarily affect the earning power of a desk jockey. I want as much as I can get my mitts on so I can pay off the mortgage early, that doesn't make me, or any other ATCO greedy.
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Alfie,
NATS are posting a record profit this year.
Our Boss got or is getting (I believe it's every 3 years it happens so not sure if it is due this year or has just gone) a huge bonus which takes his gross pay to over a £1 million).
Lets just say 'for instance' his basic was £450k, and with bonus his gross pay comes to over £1 million, thats over £550k bonus over 3 years - almost a whopping 50% per year bonus.
ATCOs are not greedy, they just want recognition for the work they do.
The office workers should be shouting about the amount of extra work they put in to achieve unrealistic deadlines...
It's not about greed, it's about rewarding a diligent, loyal workforce (whatever your job title), with a decent rise - if our boss can get a tasty bonus whilst the company posts record profits, why should we not expect a decent pay rise?
Non Ops staff outnumber ATCOs by a big margin. The fact of the matter is, there is a shortage of ATCOs worldwide, not a shortage of office workers. I'm all for everyone sticking together - after all the 'unrealistic demands' of ATCOs have resulted in good pay rises for non ops staff in the past...
As an ATCO I could look at it this way - seperate the ATCOs and Ops staff from non Ops and have seperate negotiations.
The fact is ATCOs are in worldwide demand. So once the NATS Non Ops personnel (the majority of people in NATS) have accepted their meagre pay rise, it will leave a bigger pot of money for Operational staff to divvy up, giving us an even better pay rise.
However, I believe going our seperate ways would be a bad move and as an ATCO would not advocate it.
NATS are posting a record profit this year.
Our Boss got or is getting (I believe it's every 3 years it happens so not sure if it is due this year or has just gone) a huge bonus which takes his gross pay to over a £1 million).
Lets just say 'for instance' his basic was £450k, and with bonus his gross pay comes to over £1 million, thats over £550k bonus over 3 years - almost a whopping 50% per year bonus.
ATCOs are not greedy, they just want recognition for the work they do.
The office workers should be shouting about the amount of extra work they put in to achieve unrealistic deadlines...
It's not about greed, it's about rewarding a diligent, loyal workforce (whatever your job title), with a decent rise - if our boss can get a tasty bonus whilst the company posts record profits, why should we not expect a decent pay rise?
Non Ops staff outnumber ATCOs by a big margin. The fact of the matter is, there is a shortage of ATCOs worldwide, not a shortage of office workers. I'm all for everyone sticking together - after all the 'unrealistic demands' of ATCOs have resulted in good pay rises for non ops staff in the past...
As an ATCO I could look at it this way - seperate the ATCOs and Ops staff from non Ops and have seperate negotiations.
The fact is ATCOs are in worldwide demand. So once the NATS Non Ops personnel (the majority of people in NATS) have accepted their meagre pay rise, it will leave a bigger pot of money for Operational staff to divvy up, giving us an even better pay rise.
However, I believe going our seperate ways would be a bad move and as an ATCO would not advocate it.
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It's about time the ATCO's who "bring home the bacon" broke away from non-operational staff as an ATCO's bargaining power will always be greater then a desk jockeys.
I'd even go as far as to say NERL ATCO's should break free as NSL appears to be having the more difficult time and their future looks bleak, inparticularly the pension costs are a real headache for NSL.
The reality is that Prospect must do the best it can for all it's members, eventually however there will come a time when it is too damaging to it's majority membership (NERL ATCO's) to protect it's minority membership (NSL ATCO's).
I'd even go as far as to say NERL ATCO's should break free as NSL appears to be having the more difficult time and their future looks bleak, inparticularly the pension costs are a real headache for NSL.
The reality is that Prospect must do the best it can for all it's members, eventually however there will come a time when it is too damaging to it's majority membership (NERL ATCO's) to protect it's minority membership (NSL ATCO's).
Last edited by rumouroid; 30th Mar 2009 at 12:16.
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Originally Posted by rumouroid
It's about time the ATCO's who "bring home the bacon" broke away from non-operational staff as an ATCO's bargaining power will always be greater then a desk jockeys.
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It's about time the ATCO's who "bring home the bacon" broke away from non-operational staff
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I'm not sure that ATCOs are 'greedy', but we all want to earn as much as poss.
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It's about time the ATCO's who "bring home the bacon" broke away from non-operational staff as an ATCO's bargaining power will always be greater then a desk jockeys.
I'd even go as far as to say NERL ATCO's should break free as NSL appears to be having the more difficult time and their future looks bleak, inparticularly the pension costs are a real headache for NSL.
The reality is that Prospect must do the best it can for all it's members, eventually however there will come a time when it is too damaging to it's majority membership (NERL ATCO's) to protect it's minority membership (NSL ATCO's).
I'd even go as far as to say NERL ATCO's should break free as NSL appears to be having the more difficult time and their future looks bleak, inparticularly the pension costs are a real headache for NSL.
The reality is that Prospect must do the best it can for all it's members, eventually however there will come a time when it is too damaging to it's majority membership (NERL ATCO's) to protect it's minority membership (NSL ATCO's).
Green Watch in TC can do their own negotiations, so can B Watch at Prestwick Centre. If they manage to negotiate a higher pay award than Red Watch at LAC, then well done to them. In fact, why not just scrap unions altogether as you obviously don't understand the principles on which they operate ??
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compare with criticism of the Baron for receiving a bonus and driving an Aston.