UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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The 400 number will be driven by the amount of cost that needs to be taken out of the business. So take the average NATS salary, multiply by 400 and hey presto you will have a good indication of how many £££ that NATS need to cut. There are other factors like overhead to consider, but its a good 'back of the fag packet' indicator...
Katie
Katie
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...then there's the recession so volume of flights will be down for at least 20 years, so a definite cost saving could be made there...........
20 years... complete hogwash, even management with their scaremongering aren't stupid enough to think we believe that... are they?
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Traffic was down 10% on average in Feb this year compared to last Feb.
Given that traffic had been growing by about 5% per year before the 'credit crunch' (and as much as 15% at some units), the 20yr figure is laughable.
I think there will be a few people caught out when the summer schedules kick in, especially if they swallow the management doom and gloom predictions. There will still be overloads this year, I reckon.
Be careful people, traffic will not be as quiet as some may think - and it might catch us out, especially after a quiet winter.
Given that traffic had been growing by about 5% per year before the 'credit crunch' (and as much as 15% at some units), the 20yr figure is laughable.
I think there will be a few people caught out when the summer schedules kick in, especially if they swallow the management doom and gloom predictions. There will still be overloads this year, I reckon.
Be careful people, traffic will not be as quiet as some may think - and it might catch us out, especially after a quiet winter.
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There is a school of thought that aviation has now peaked and movements will remain steady for several years to come. A bit like the housing boom. On the plus side we will be working at a more comfortable pace similar to 2004 as opposed to the usual pace 
we are accustomed to, unless the lack of staff means we will still be as busy 
. So I guess overloads will still occur, but because of insufficient backup 
we are accustomed to, unless the lack of staff means we will still be as busy . So I guess overloads will still occur, but because of insufficient backup
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I love the diplomacy of the union using the word "modest" to describe a 1.25% pay rise offer! Anything less than 3% could be described as insulting, pathetic or just plain cr@p! and any offer less than 3% should not be recommended by the union to it's members, if they want to try and get some respect back after the pension recommendation that should have had a pay rise of at least 4.8% attached to it, if they had negotiated harder. I can't believe we let NATS get the new pension for FREE! 
If only the first vote had been no who knows what we could of negotiated, NEVER accept the first offer! There's always more available. Let's not make the same mistake again over pay. Also it won't be long until pensions are needing to be revisited either.
Personally I believe a "modest" offer would be between 3% and 4.5% and a suitable offer would be more than 4.5%, and if they want to attach some strings then it's at least 4.8%.
Let's see what next Monday brings
If only the first vote had been no who knows what we could of negotiated, NEVER accept the first offer! There's always more available. Let's not make the same mistake again over pay. Also it won't be long until pensions are needing to be revisited either. Personally I believe a "modest" offer would be between 3% and 4.5% and a suitable offer would be more than 4.5%, and if they want to attach some strings then it's at least 4.8%.
Let's see what next Monday brings
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Well said, totally agree 1.25% is an insult after the pension acceptance. When will our unions learn - perhaps they need to attend a course on "managing mangements pay expectations". PB has always said he wants to have a well motivated work force, with the 1.25% and the pension issue that isn't going to happen.
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Yahoo
I stand corrected, indeed I believe NATS management described their offer of 1.25% (not RPI+1% as you quote) as "modest" and the union described it as "derisory" due to the low amount and the strings attached.
However the sentiment of my previous post remains the same.
I stand corrected, indeed I believe NATS management described their offer of 1.25% (not RPI+1% as you quote) as "modest" and the union described it as "derisory" due to the low amount and the strings attached.
However the sentiment of my previous post remains the same.
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Lets face it, management have us just where they want us. We should be negototiating a pay deal using the pension as a bargaining tool, but no we sold ourselves down the river, thanks prospect.
Look at the pension vote, only 70% of ATCO's bothered to vote, some weren't interested, others never received ballot papers(don't get me started on that).
So we have a disorganised and weak union with a at least, an apathetic workforce of 30%. So if came to strike action or any sort of action on pay, 30% wouldn't bother, and out of the remaining 70% how many would support the action when in these dire financial times the press will give us a totally hammering. Supported by facts given by NATS management.
After all we do get well paid(comparing the national average of 15 grand), you only need look in the Swanick car park to support this.
I reckon we will get maybe 40% willing to take action, so planes will fly with a bit of flow, no problem really considering how busy we are or not at the moment.
So you can kiss goodbye to any sort of payrise this year, thank you prospect and all those who voted YES, i hate to say I told you so, but I TOLD YOU SO.
Managment can sit back keep offering nothing and say do your worst, meanwhile people are getting made redundant, and other companies are giving pay freezes.
We are screwed, and the sooner people realise this the better.
PS no running off to the Middle East either they have stopped recruiting and maybe looking at job cuts!!!
Look at the pension vote, only 70% of ATCO's bothered to vote, some weren't interested, others never received ballot papers(don't get me started on that).
So we have a disorganised and weak union with a at least, an apathetic workforce of 30%. So if came to strike action or any sort of action on pay, 30% wouldn't bother, and out of the remaining 70% how many would support the action when in these dire financial times the press will give us a totally hammering. Supported by facts given by NATS management.
After all we do get well paid(comparing the national average of 15 grand), you only need look in the Swanick car park to support this.
I reckon we will get maybe 40% willing to take action, so planes will fly with a bit of flow, no problem really considering how busy we are or not at the moment.
So you can kiss goodbye to any sort of payrise this year, thank you prospect and all those who voted YES, i hate to say I told you so, but I TOLD YOU SO.
Managment can sit back keep offering nothing and say do your worst, meanwhile people are getting made redundant, and other companies are giving pay freezes.
We are screwed, and the sooner people realise this the better.
PS no running off to the Middle East either they have stopped recruiting and maybe looking at job cuts!!!
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For what it's worth I think 'they' are waiting until after the end of year profit figures are produced. If they are high then the union will hopefully get stuck in! I disagree with the post above on one point: Remember when the ATSA's went on a one day strike? Our customers were forced to cancel flights by their hundreds! I expect Mr BAW to be on the phone to Mr Von Richthoven in short order! The uninions should stop this cosy arrangement of "working together" until management make a decent offer. The unions need to take a much tougher line. 
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you only need look in the Swanick car park to support this.
At the risk of opening a huge can of worms, I believe the above comment is very telling. There are a load of other units, that aren't on Swanwick pay, that earn considerably less. Without using the 'B' word, I would like to think that the disproportionate pay between the units is something else that will be looked at, and I'd like to think that our colleagues at Swanwick would be in full support of this.
In reality though I think I'm living in a dream world.
On both counts.
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Where does it stop though. Band 1 units probably feel they should be band 3. If band 3 units move to band 4, then band 1 units will want band 4. If band 1 then get band 4, the original band 3 will want band 5.Confused now.
Divsion 2 footballers probably want Premiership wages, they all kick the same size football around.
Divsion 2 footballers probably want Premiership wages, they all kick the same size football around.
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manny fred
We don't expect necessarily to gain another bands salary, just a narrowing of the huge gulf between 1, 2, 3 and bands 4 and 5. Is that so controversial or greedy?
Seeing however as the ATCO's in bands 4 and 5 hold the majority vote its never going to happen.
I suspect that NERL will gain more out of this supposed pay rise than NSL and hope that the Union does not give in, mainly because the majority of the BEC is made up of NERL Atco's. Most of the strings attached to the derisory offer relate to NSL after all and would lead to even more Atsa redundancies as we are forced/conned into doing more of their jobs. I would sooner have a pay freeze than gain 1-2 % to do met on a night shift etc which would lead to the removal of an ATSA on a night shift and the inevitable further loss of staff at that grade.
In relation to strike action. By the time we have given notice of a strike by law, it will be into summer schedules. OK, we may not be as busy as usual but traffic will be kicking in again soonish and will still cause chaos if we did strike. Unlike the French who laugh at us every time they visit my workplace we will never gain respect from this management unless we flex our muscle. After all management continually flex theirs and I believe look on the operational staff with contempt.
We don't expect necessarily to gain another bands salary, just a narrowing of the huge gulf between 1, 2, 3 and bands 4 and 5. Is that so controversial or greedy?
Seeing however as the ATCO's in bands 4 and 5 hold the majority vote its never going to happen.
I suspect that NERL will gain more out of this supposed pay rise than NSL and hope that the Union does not give in, mainly because the majority of the BEC is made up of NERL Atco's. Most of the strings attached to the derisory offer relate to NSL after all and would lead to even more Atsa redundancies as we are forced/conned into doing more of their jobs. I would sooner have a pay freeze than gain 1-2 % to do met on a night shift etc which would lead to the removal of an ATSA on a night shift and the inevitable further loss of staff at that grade.
In relation to strike action. By the time we have given notice of a strike by law, it will be into summer schedules. OK, we may not be as busy as usual but traffic will be kicking in again soonish and will still cause chaos if we did strike. Unlike the French who laugh at us every time they visit my workplace we will never gain respect from this management unless we flex our muscle. After all management continually flex theirs and I believe look on the operational staff with contempt.
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I dont care who gets what, but some of the units you mention, dont work nights, dont do full afternoon shifts, or full weekends, people are able to validate in 4 or 5 months. Promotion to watch sup/manager is a lot quicker. Some of the units are northern so in terms of cost of living are probably better off than a southern controller. All these units have been evaluated in terms of movements and complexity, and I dont think it is a coincidence that guys who fail at LACC/LTCC end up validating at Manch/Scottish, or guys who fail at LL validate at SS/KK
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manny fred
Typical response from an arrogant Band 5 atco with his head up his ar**. Prices where I live are comparable to London which will also be more costly than Swanwick. Aberdeen is full of oil money and again is an expensive place to live. Promotion to Watch manager? At smaller units it's dead mans shoes, people stay there for life. There isn't much movement nor promotion prospects.
And if you don't care, as you state, if these things were true then it wouldn't matter to you anyway. But as per usual you are top of the heap and if the lower mortals in Nats (your colleagues) got a bigger percentage to narrow the banding gaps, you would see it as money out of your own pocket no doubt. NSL is shafted for life as the top tier will not look after the rest but themselves.
Typical response from an arrogant Band 5 atco with his head up his ar**. Prices where I live are comparable to London which will also be more costly than Swanwick. Aberdeen is full of oil money and again is an expensive place to live. Promotion to Watch manager? At smaller units it's dead mans shoes, people stay there for life. There isn't much movement nor promotion prospects.
And if you don't care, as you state, if these things were true then it wouldn't matter to you anyway. But as per usual you are top of the heap and if the lower mortals in Nats (your colleagues) got a bigger percentage to narrow the banding gaps, you would see it as money out of your own pocket no doubt. NSL is shafted for life as the top tier will not look after the rest but themselves.
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Not at all hootin. I have not got an arrogant attitude about being on the top band. I am just looking at it from an air traffic point of view. Just because we all share the same job title, does not mean we all do the same job. Someone has evaluated all the units and determined these bands. Should the Captain of a 737 working short haul, be on the same wage as a 747 pilot. Of course not, but they are both highly skilled pilots.
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Just because we all share the same job title, does not mean we all do the same job. Someone has evaluated all the units and determined these bands. Should the Captain of a 737 working short haul, be on the same wage as a 747 pilot. Of course not, but they are both pilots.
The banding system is flawed and always has been. The initial study was not perfect, and the union at our pensions brief agreed that they may have made a mistake and that it contributed to the pension problem. That makes the lower bands who did not make significant gains feel really good.
If the big units continually get what they want at the detriment of smaller units then can someone tell me the point of the union? Isn't its role to look after the minnows and the collective as a whole?