UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[ProM]

Does it matter whether the income is salary, or additional voluntary whatever, or bonuses?

So that famous sketch has become (it would appear in some people's minds, not all):


"I look down on him. His skills are not in as short supply and so he does not deserve to get paid as much as me

I am entitled to get paid lots, it is only reasonable to want to earn as much as possible

I look down on him too, he earns a lot more than me. So he is greedy and does not deserve it."

[mr.777]

I would say that it matters rather a lot where it comes from when he expects his workforce to take a pay freeze (and that includes all staff, not just ATCOs). Why should he get a £600k bonus or whatever it is when he expects everybody else to get nothing...in addition to the reduced pension we now have?

I really struggle to comprehend how anybody can defend this course of action...you must be f***ing brainwashed

[anotherthing]

ProM

compare with criticism of the Baron for receiving a bonus and driving an Aston. Is he not just earning as much as poss?

I think you will find that the reason there is criticism is because whilst the top dog gets all the juicy treats, his workforce hardly get any scraps.

I'm all for management awarding themselves bonuses, so long as they don't try to tell the workforce that the company cannot afford to give us pay rises!

Say what you want about Mr B - he is very good at his job. Unfortunately his mandate comes from his labour cronies who sold NATS and put us in debt in the first place. He is doing everything they wanted him to do.

The problem most people have is nothing to do with his performance - he excels at cutting costs at lower levels and scaremongering - but everything to do with the fact that his mandate does not sit particularly well with the idea of being the best ATC provider... a slogan that no longer appears on NATS literature.

[PeltonLevel]

Atco's should do the decent thing and breakaway

It would be interesting to watch it happening
All you have to do is follow the script:
Derecognition owing to lack of support - worker application

A worker (or workers) from the bargaining unit can apply to the CAC for derecognition - but only where no such similar application has been made in the past three years. If the CAC accepts the application as valid, it will try to help the workers, union and employer reach an agreement on derecognition. If an agreement is not reached, the CAC will arrange a secret ballot to test worker support for derecognition. However, it will do this only if it believes that:
- at least 10 per cent of the workers in the bargaining unit favour derecognition, and
- a majority of the workers in the bargaining unit are likely to favour derecognition
A union will be derecognised as a result of the ballot if a majority of those voting and at least 40 per cent of those entitled to vote favour derecognition.

Of course those pushing for derecognition would have to do it in their own time - only recognised unions get facilities time. They wouldn't be able to push off home at the end of every shift. They would also have to find another union who would accept them and would then have to become the reps instead of sniping from the sidelines. Might be educational!

[ZOOKER]

anotherthing,
According to the NATS website, you still work for:-
"A World Leader in Air Traffic Management".

[White Hart]

"So what do you suggest ? The present set up has seen our pension screwed, no ferking pay rise and job cuts right left and centre with morale at rock bottom"

absolutely. all down to the fact that no single group within NATS carries the negotiating punch as strongly as the ATCOs - who decline to put their weight behind anybody other than themselves. Hence - no unity. Therefore, as a workforce with negotiating clout - bolloxed.

My suggestion, FWIW, would be that the ATCOs and Prospect realise once and for all that 'teamwork' includes everybody, both in the workplace (irrespective of grade/position) and most definitely at the negotiating table. Acceptance of this one small point, and with a single Union representing the entire workforce, could make all the difference when it comes down to getting the best deal for everyone.

[White Hart]

"Or will it be another case of the ATCOs digging deep to sort the rest of the company out again?"

WTF are you on about? I must have missed this little gem somewhere in the dim and distant past. looking at the historic (union) record, the only hole the ATCOs have ever dug is one for the rest of the workforce to fall into. The fact that the majority of ATCOs consider themselves to be a cut above the rest in all fields is the primary cause of the situation we now find ourselves in as a Company workforce!

In your eyes, the rest of us are responsible for dragging you all down. In our eyes, the perpetual intransigence of the ATCOs to honestly recognise the input and value of the support staff (and especially the Ops ATSAs) and back them up accordingly, is what the real state of affairs is.

While this situation exists, all of us have no chance of working and negotiating together effectively. Go your own way if you must - we won't be able to stop you, but we certainly won't be any worse off than we are at the moment.

[fisbangwollop]

The only time anyone in this Company showed they had balls was back in 77 when the Assistants walked out for 10 weeks......!!! We have been well and truly shafted in recent months and why????.....because most folk just touched there toe's and let management ram it where it hurts!!!....cannot see this changing in the future either!!!!

[mr.777]

The fact that the majority of ATCOs consider themselves to be a cut above the rest in all fields is the primary cause of the situation we now find ourselves in as a Company workforce!

I think you've got issues mate. That is total and utter bulls*it...where do you get off blaming NATS current situation on the ATCO workforce??? I don't know one single ATCO that displays the attitude you are so ready to tar us all with...certainly not towards ATSAs and Engineers, and certainly not on my watch.

[anotherthing]

Bittertwisted -

unfortunately your post quickly sank to the depths that you accuse others of...

but you wouldn't have worked that out as you are so brilliantly selfish and generally misinformed.

Well done you. Have a skinny latte and then go and throw fewer planes than last year around for 30 minutes...

because the downturn is unique to Swanwick of course and not evident at every unit in NATS...

...Then have a cup of tea (variety is this spice of life after all).

There's no point trying to keep a high moral ground when you start slinging mud yourself, you make yourself sound as petty and smallminded as you claim others to be

[ImnotanERIC]

bittertwisted:

I was trying to be slightly sarcastic and attempting to be tongue in cheek with some of the remarks.

Fail

[White Hart]

"I think you've got issues mate. .."

hah!-going over old ground here. cant be ar*ed to respond - its a lost cause, anyway.

[ImnotanERIC]

white hart

cant be ar*ed to respond

Fail

[manny fred]

In your eyes, the rest of us are responsible for dragging you all down. In our eyes, the perpetual intransigence of the ATCOs to honestly recognise the input and value of the support staff (and especially the Ops ATSAs) and back them up accordingly, is what the real state of affairs is.

Only speaking on behalf of AC/TC here, but the input of ATSAs over the years have dwindled, and to be perfectly honest, the amount of time I have sat with an ATSA who has read a book throughout the whole of the session is easily 85% of the time. Some go off and wander around. I no longer feel any value of support from about 90% of them. There are some who are desperate to support you, and they have great awareness of the tactical picture, but they are the definate minority, the rest are barely noticeable and get a great wage for what they ultimately do, and if they were honest with themselves, they would agree. I bet they would not get a cushier job, with such a wage, anywhere, ever again.

[ImnotanERIC]

from the way you say they sat next to you suggests that you are talking from purely an ac point of view, is that correct?
In tc, in my experience, some of our atsa are brilliant, and can't do enough for you and it is really appreciated, they really earn their money and take pride in their profession. others are no better than dog toff and it can make working a sector more awkward than it should be. in the past i have contemplated splitting a sector earlier than necessary to accomodate for poor atsa work.
A good atsa is as good as a coordinator (sometimes better) for the help they provide to the operation.

[kats-I]

Kats-I

Manny Fred
Try sticking your head into TC..No time for book reading there. . Our ATSAs are on their feet most of the shift, running around like the proverbial B-A Flies. AC ATSAs don't have the same work load as TC..why do you think none of your ATSAs want to come in and join ours..too much like hard work?? So please do not judge all the same.

[Disillusioned]

None of the above is really helped by the fact that there is still no news at all about Friday's meeting.

Even if someone from the negotiating team was to say that there are further meetings planned on such and such a date, at least we would know that things are still progressing. But the complete lack of any information whatsoever (especially after the union promised to keep members more informed about the current state of negotiations, after the pension debacle), isn't helping.

Anyone know anything about Friday's meeting?

[manny fred]

Yes it is a purely ac point of view, but also rumblings from TC guys. Maybe it is a little unfair as on some sectors they have more to do. But on AC sectors, esp Central/south banks. I would say 95% of there jobs is putting the strips out, and nothing more. The ATSAs who only work on the wings(FIR- are worth there weight in gold), are on a great wage, older ones over £40000, with some getting great redundancy money £80000 plus. My wife works long hours for the NHS, and is constantly busy, and gets no where near that sort of money. I then see an ATSA sat next to me, reading the newspaper, and sighing when the printer prints a strip. They are usuallly oblivious to the planner and tac working their butts off. Apart from some who do other tasks, I think they are grosely overpaid, for the service they provide.
How about last August bank holiday. A notoriously busy day in Air Traffic. I am working like crazy, and the ATSA is an overtimer. The ATSA is getting triple time, and it works out they are getting close, if not more than I am getting paid. She is doing the crossword.

[kats-I]

Unfortunately thats Technology and Progress that has taken jobs off ATSAs, not the fault of ATSAs. (sp..grossly)

Still no news on payrise?

[anotherthing]

Anyone know anything about Friday's meeting?

What meeting? I think it was cancelled, at the request of management.

MannyFred,

There are some very lazy ATSAs in TC, but fortunately they are in the minority. In fact one has just gone via VR . There is a big difference between AC and TC ATSA roles/work conditions. When AC first moved out of WD there were a few TC ATSA jobs VN'd. Some AC ATSAS came for a visit with a view to applying as they wanted to stay London way. After seeing the work entailed, not one applied.

However, that's by the by, the majority of ATSAs are good, some exceptional, there is the odd one that if they are working on your sector, you know you will get poor service.

Annoying, but no different from any other walk of life, but yes the pay is exceptional.

I'mnotanERIC

A good atsa is as good as a coordinator (sometimes better) for the help they provide to the operation.

to be fair, that's probably more of a reflection of how bad/lazy some people are at coordinating...