ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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First of all, Best of Luck to the lads in the Labour court today.
I overheard this while I was waiting to meet someone in a Dublin Pub last night.
"If there's one bunch of f*****s out there that are entitled to every penny they earn its air traffic controllers", there was no argument.
I know public support is really immaterial in deciding the out come but it's gratifying to think that we do have some and that the negative press isn't having much of an impact.
Ibec,rIAAnair and the press didn't gang up on the Nurses, teachers, Hosp. Consultants or the Gardai when they went on strike. Those other strikes didn't prompt cross party support in the Dail for anti strike legislation.
Why?
Because they're afraid of us! We can close this country down and they're terrified.
They can whinge and lie as much as they want and get all their mates to do the same but as I said before we know what real pressure is and we can take anything they throw at us.
Thats the power we have and we had better take it back.
If it comes to it, on Thursday I'll be proud to stand on the Picket Line, public support or no because we are right and the truth will out
I overheard this while I was waiting to meet someone in a Dublin Pub last night.
"If there's one bunch of f*****s out there that are entitled to every penny they earn its air traffic controllers", there was no argument.
I know public support is really immaterial in deciding the out come but it's gratifying to think that we do have some and that the negative press isn't having much of an impact.
Ibec,rIAAnair and the press didn't gang up on the Nurses, teachers, Hosp. Consultants or the Gardai when they went on strike. Those other strikes didn't prompt cross party support in the Dail for anti strike legislation.
Why?
Because they're afraid of us! We can close this country down and they're terrified.
They can whinge and lie as much as they want and get all their mates to do the same but as I said before we know what real pressure is and we can take anything they throw at us.
Thats the power we have and we had better take it back.
If it comes to it, on Thursday I'll be proud to stand on the Picket Line, public support or no because we are right and the truth will out
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Norby, the reason those strikes don't incite a 'no strike' clause, is because they don't cost businesses money in the same way. Nurses strike, who cares, the worst that can happen is we'll have a few corpses on our hands. You won't be seeing any IBEC representation weeping at those funerals.
The same applies to our own situation. IBEC and Ryanair are happy enough to run any kind of ATC service, because insurance companies pick up the tab resulting from ATC related catastrophies.
If it doesn't cost them money, they don't care. Life is not just cheap for the big business community, it's valueless.
The same applies to our own situation. IBEC and Ryanair are happy enough to run any kind of ATC service, because insurance companies pick up the tab resulting from ATC related catastrophies.
If it doesn't cost them money, they don't care. Life is not just cheap for the big business community, it's valueless.
Last edited by goodworker; 2nd Mar 2008 at 15:41.
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After I made a comment regarding staffing elsewhere Macker rushed off to ask for figures. I don't think he got what he expected. Why did he not simply use the telephone rahther than showing the public that while Shannon Required Air and Ground H24 with more staff for "contingency and breaks", Manchester can sope with less staff while handling far more flights.
EINN 2 ATCOS H24
egcc tower 2 atcos, 2atsa,twr/gmc/gmp,2200-0700
einn 2 staff h24
not seeing how 4 is less than 2
at an earlier stage you made the preposterous statement that there were more staff in EIDW ATC on nights than SWANICK(SIC)
5 vs 20
gotta love your handle on maths
The only reason why I say what I do in my opening sentence is that I have spoken to you "thorisgod" and you are normally a reasonable person.
****- i've spoken to you many times, and i haven't outed you yet
YET!
see you next tuesday
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Gotta love there contining stance from RTE news
"The Irish Aviation Authority has categorically rejected claims by the air traffic controllers' union IMPACT that there are staff shortages in the air traffic control service"
"However, arriving for talks at the Labour Court this morning, Liam Kavanagh of the Irish Aviation Authority categorically rejected that assertion, describing it as completely false and grossly misleading"
Impact
"
Ahead of those talks, IMPACT published its submission to the Labour Court.
In it, IMPACT claimed that the Authority had conceded at the Labour Relations Commission some weeks ago that there were staffing shortages in the service"
"The Irish Aviation Authority has categorically rejected claims by the air traffic controllers' union IMPACT that there are staff shortages in the air traffic control service"
"However, arriving for talks at the Labour Court this morning, Liam Kavanagh of the Irish Aviation Authority categorically rejected that assertion, describing it as completely false and grossly misleading"
Impact
"
Ahead of those talks, IMPACT published its submission to the Labour Court.
In it, IMPACT claimed that the Authority had conceded at the Labour Relations Commission some weeks ago that there were staffing shortages in the service"
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Good luck from the green pilots.
I trust the slander and abuse from the likes of psycho mick, ibec and your brutal management will be utterly counterproductive from their point of view and merely harden your stance.
I trust the slander and abuse from the likes of psycho mick, ibec and your brutal management will be utterly counterproductive from their point of view and merely harden your stance.
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The much vaunted progress of debate.
Thanks again DFC,
but for me this is not about money, however it's the only language the IAA understand.
I don't think I'm normally a reasonable person, LOL. OK I am.
The reason I can post at 2am and post again at 9am is because my sleep patterns are screwed up by working days and nights in the same week, every week. But I can accept that. After all I am payed shift allowance for it. Also, I am a very moderate drinker.
99% is as close as you can get and I would never for one second intimidate or bully any person who didn't vote for the majority or failed to show solidarity in the event of a walkout.
The IAA can spout all they like saying we signed up for a level of VOLUNTARY overtime in previous negotiations. It is still Voluntary. Besides they agreed, in previous negotiations to recompense us commensurately for massive operational changes. The changes have happened, the recompensing hasn't.
Some people are being allowed to work an un-safe level of overtime. This needs to be addressed. What do you want me to do, free overtime. If the answer to that is yes, apply now for a management role in the IAA. You have all the requirements.
Bertie can bring a no-strike clause for all I care, he still can't stop us from doing a work to rule by not working overtime. As has been stated many times and in many ways on this thread; as has been demonstrated over the previous few days; the system can't even stand up to winter traffic levels without Overtime. What will the summer hold. That's what we may find out if this thing isn't sorted. I for one don't want to be out there on Thursday. I don't want to inconvenience so many businesses and travellers. How "inconvenienced" will they be if the unspeakable happens and an over-tired controller makes a mistake?
We are understaffed. I know the IAA say we are not. They say they have adequate numbers of staff to operate the roster. They only do if you discount the need to cover illness, maternity leave, parental leave, planned leave, loss of ratings due to ilness or competency or incident/accident, etc., the list goes on.....
Need to go take some Rennie, I'm giving myself an ulcer.
P.S.
Your comments are more than welcome on this thread by me.
Thorisgod
but for me this is not about money, however it's the only language the IAA understand.
I don't think I'm normally a reasonable person, LOL. OK I am.
The reason I can post at 2am and post again at 9am is because my sleep patterns are screwed up by working days and nights in the same week, every week. But I can accept that. After all I am payed shift allowance for it. Also, I am a very moderate drinker.
99% is as close as you can get and I would never for one second intimidate or bully any person who didn't vote for the majority or failed to show solidarity in the event of a walkout.
The IAA can spout all they like saying we signed up for a level of VOLUNTARY overtime in previous negotiations. It is still Voluntary. Besides they agreed, in previous negotiations to recompense us commensurately for massive operational changes. The changes have happened, the recompensing hasn't.
Some people are being allowed to work an un-safe level of overtime. This needs to be addressed. What do you want me to do, free overtime. If the answer to that is yes, apply now for a management role in the IAA. You have all the requirements.
Bertie can bring a no-strike clause for all I care, he still can't stop us from doing a work to rule by not working overtime. As has been stated many times and in many ways on this thread; as has been demonstrated over the previous few days; the system can't even stand up to winter traffic levels without Overtime. What will the summer hold. That's what we may find out if this thing isn't sorted. I for one don't want to be out there on Thursday. I don't want to inconvenience so many businesses and travellers. How "inconvenienced" will they be if the unspeakable happens and an over-tired controller makes a mistake?
We are understaffed. I know the IAA say we are not. They say they have adequate numbers of staff to operate the roster. They only do if you discount the need to cover illness, maternity leave, parental leave, planned leave, loss of ratings due to ilness or competency or incident/accident, etc., the list goes on.....
Need to go take some Rennie, I'm giving myself an ulcer.
P.S.
Your comments are more than welcome on this thread by me.
Thorisgod
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The latest from RTE
"
Air traffic contollers suspend strike
Monday, 25 February 2008 13:29
Air traffic controllers have suspended their 24-hour strike that was due to take place on Thursday.
They have also suspended their official overtime ban that was due to take effect from tomorrow"
"
Air traffic contollers suspend strike
Monday, 25 February 2008 13:29
Air traffic controllers have suspended their 24-hour strike that was due to take place on Thursday.
They have also suspended their official overtime ban that was due to take effect from tomorrow"
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I don't quite understand the RTE story.
The strike was suspended before the talks began or as a result of some progress during the talks? And if so, what progress was made?
The strike was suspended before the talks began or as a result of some progress during the talks? And if so, what progress was made?
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Ok the strike has been suspended and suspended only-note not cancelled. It can be re-activated. The overtime ban as far as i am aware is not included in the suspension-i think RTE have got that bit wrong.
It was done in order to show good will towards the labour court and them only.
It was done in order to show good will towards the labour court and them only.
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Who's the demon here?
IMPACT agreeing to suspend the 24 hour stoppage is an outstanding gesture in light of the scathing press releases by ryIAA.
It speaks volumes about who can be reasonable at a time of apparent insanity when you look at the various rantings by LK and MOL and some of the media reports.
I have stated before that the ATCOs are the only true professionals in this situation and if this action is the case you also show the correct level of maturity and openess.
(p.s. just in case I'd have a few jars of vaseline on standby.....)
RESPECTATCOs!!!!
It speaks volumes about who can be reasonable at a time of apparent insanity when you look at the various rantings by LK and MOL and some of the media reports.
I have stated before that the ATCOs are the only true professionals in this situation and if this action is the case you also show the correct level of maturity and openess.
(p.s. just in case I'd have a few jars of vaseline on standby.....)
RESPECT
ATCOs!!!!
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strike/overtime suspended
strike and overtime ban suspended.
this is fairly standard in these matters.
one party cannot be expected to negotiate with a loaded gun to their head.
the test will come after the talks have broken up.
is there enough there to carry on talking
if not it should be a case of reverting to plan a - which may be the overtime ban in isolation
we'll see. in the absence of any other info, i will defer to the union. they know what their members want
this is fairly standard in these matters.
one party cannot be expected to negotiate with a loaded gun to their head.
the test will come after the talks have broken up.
is there enough there to carry on talking
if not it should be a case of reverting to plan a - which may be the overtime ban in isolation
we'll see. in the absence of any other info, i will defer to the union. they know what their members want
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This just confirms what I've already suspected. Impact do not have the balls to carry through with their threats. This capitulation will get us nowhere.
You know aswell as I that management will just carry on stalling the process as they have continued to do for so long and we'll be back to square one.
You may think that showing cooperation will give us bonus points in the eyes of the court, but it has done sweet FA for us so far and I don't expect that to change.
Impact, two words for you.... F***ing cowards
You know aswell as I that management will just carry on stalling the process as they have continued to do for so long and we'll be back to square one.
You may think that showing cooperation will give us bonus points in the eyes of the court, but it has done sweet FA for us so far and I don't expect that to change.
Impact, two words for you.... F***ing cowards
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Yaweh- i understand your feeling and sentiment, indeed my first reaction was 'dont do it" with regards to tempoarily suspending the strike.
But it was the correct action. The LC would not issue any proposals, recommendations or rulings with the strike in place.
It just shows in my opinion the professional, calm and intelligent response from us ATCO's.
BUT REMEBER IF THE STAFFING ISSUES ARE NOT MET THERN THE STRIKE IS BACK ON AND WE ALL MAY YET HAVER DAY(S) IN THE SUN OUTSIDE THE GATE.
This way we can say that we have co-operated fully in all the machinations of the state industriial machinery, showed nothing but good will and initiative and if at the end of the day it all gets throwm back in our face then we can strike.
I understand your sentiment especially after all the abuse we have suffered but let see what comes of this new chapter in this story.
My $0.02
But it was the correct action. The LC would not issue any proposals, recommendations or rulings with the strike in place.
It just shows in my opinion the professional, calm and intelligent response from us ATCO's.
BUT REMEBER IF THE STAFFING ISSUES ARE NOT MET THERN THE STRIKE IS BACK ON AND WE ALL MAY YET HAVER DAY(S) IN THE SUN OUTSIDE THE GATE.
This way we can say that we have co-operated fully in all the machinations of the state industriial machinery, showed nothing but good will and initiative and if at the end of the day it all gets throwm back in our face then we can strike.
I understand your sentiment especially after all the abuse we have suffered but let see what comes of this new chapter in this story.
My $0.02
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Here, here Sevenstar - the Chairman of the Labour Court always takes the approach "lets put the guns down and talk" - it is not a surprising outcome. If we the members democratically reject any proposal - we are right back at strike notification - the sanction still stands .... so it could be say next week. Our guys are demostrating maturity and responsibility while the IAA just continue with their hissy fit. This does not in any way lessen my determination in this matter - nor that of most others I would guess ??
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Suspension of action
SEVENSTAR, I agree. This is not a time for typing first and thinking later.
We're united, our lads are doing good work, let's wait to hear the real situation tomorrow.
Second guessing and bitching today will be devisive and counter-productive.
STAY STRONG, STAND TOGETHER.
We're united, our lads are doing good work, let's wait to hear the real situation tomorrow.
Second guessing and bitching today will be devisive and counter-productive.
STAY STRONG, STAND TOGETHER.
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Rab-K- sorry!
But needs must.
Cuttin the number of eastbound tracks in half and knocking 3 or 4 flight levels from each track and forcing all traffic to go in straight lines is just what we needed and more importantly it was justified due lack of staff.
However for any inconvenience i apologise on behalf of our inept management!
But needs must.
Cuttin the number of eastbound tracks in half and knocking 3 or 4 flight levels from each track and forcing all traffic to go in straight lines is just what we needed and more importantly it was justified due lack of staff.
However for any inconvenience i apologise on behalf of our inept management!
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Proposals
Any word on what these proposals are?
If the Union have postponed action to ballot on proposals I'm hoping (against hope) that they might actually resemble an answer to our demands.
Hopefully Impact are not trying to sell us another pup, either we get solid proposals or we walk.
from the Irish Times
"Despite the good news for passengers, Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell said the controversies do "irreperable damage" to tourism.
She urged those working in aviation to consider the effect of their actions on "the thousands of workers who depend on a constant and dependable flow of tourists into the country".
Maybe if we had any form of effective opposition party and if it had kept an eye on the amount of FF hacks nepotised(????) into jobs in the aviation sector we wouldn't be here
If the Union have postponed action to ballot on proposals I'm hoping (against hope) that they might actually resemble an answer to our demands.
Hopefully Impact are not trying to sell us another pup, either we get solid proposals or we walk.
from the Irish Times
"Despite the good news for passengers, Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell said the controversies do "irreperable damage" to tourism.
She urged those working in aviation to consider the effect of their actions on "the thousands of workers who depend on a constant and dependable flow of tourists into the country".
Maybe if we had any form of effective opposition party and if it had kept an eye on the amount of FF hacks nepotised(????) into jobs in the aviation sector we wouldn't be here