ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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atc voluntary overtime ban
Been to the Shannon meeting. Still confused over some issues but most staff strong in support of holding out for the best deal . Remember we have only got this far by being united. We must stay strong and focused on whats important. We should have known the IAA would use their contacts to discredit us but that strategy has backfired on them . Goodwill is non existent and I dont see a rush of direct entries heading this way with all the bad publicity.
Whats important now is (a) dont do call ins until this is resolved .(b) keep our differences off this site. We are not the only ones reading it .(c) Stay strong and united. Without overtime the system cannot run .(d) hold out for the best deal .
A big thanks to the dub lads . They started this ball rolling and we followed behind. Dont forget , we are voting for our future.
Whats important now is (a) dont do call ins until this is resolved .(b) keep our differences off this site. We are not the only ones reading it .(c) Stay strong and united. Without overtime the system cannot run .(d) hold out for the best deal .
A big thanks to the dub lads . They started this ball rolling and we followed behind. Dont forget , we are voting for our future.
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deflated
i think that in past times ,this package , although not complete, would suffice .It would have been voted in and accepted by the majority. However, in the current climate , I think that it won't be enough to keep the majority happy. i think that an admission by management that there is a shortage of air traffic controllers within the IAA and an apology to the controllers would be enough for us to move on and put this episode in the past. This problem can be resolved with a few simple sentences.
'' WE ARE SORRY. WE GOT IT WRONG. THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS . LET'S WORK TOGETHER AND SORT IT OUT''.
It takes courage to win a fight. It takes courage and humility to admit when you are wrong.
'' WE ARE SORRY. WE GOT IT WRONG. THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS . LET'S WORK TOGETHER AND SORT IT OUT''.
It takes courage to win a fight. It takes courage and humility to admit when you are wrong.
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United
I agree jackl, we've come a long way in a short time by standing together.
It's more important now than ever to stay strong and united.
NO OVERTIME UNTIL THIS IS RESOLVED TO OUR SATISFACTION
Keep the pressure on, our mismanagement are on the canvass, don't let them back up.
Well done to our NEC, we appreciate your work.
It's more important now than ever to stay strong and united.
NO OVERTIME UNTIL THIS IS RESOLVED TO OUR SATISFACTION
Keep the pressure on, our mismanagement are on the canvass, don't let them back up.
Well done to our NEC, we appreciate your work.
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I listened to the interview on Newstalk yesterday evening and didn't think that the controllers came out that well. Landers seemed vague in some of his comments and would have left plenty of room for doubt in a sceptic's mind. I was left with the impression that George Hook tried harder to defend the controllers the Landers did.
If I were in your current situation I'd have a full page public apology from the IAA on the broadsheets as number 2 item on any agreement. I'd also want Lilian Cassin to go. She may not be the only one to blame, but it might make the rest of them think before they act in future.
It seems to have a taken a number of years and a huge amount grief to get you to this position. Now that you've been through all the emotional turmoil of industrial action, you may as well get what you came for, because I can't imagine there will be much will to do it a second time. Remember that whatever is signed is your agreement, not Michael Landers and not IMPACT's. You have to live with the reality, for Michael it's just another days work and he'll be off to some other dispute in a few weeks time.
If I were in your current situation I'd have a full page public apology from the IAA on the broadsheets as number 2 item on any agreement. I'd also want Lilian Cassin to go. She may not be the only one to blame, but it might make the rest of them think before they act in future.
It seems to have a taken a number of years and a huge amount grief to get you to this position. Now that you've been through all the emotional turmoil of industrial action, you may as well get what you came for, because I can't imagine there will be much will to do it a second time. Remember that whatever is signed is your agreement, not Michael Landers and not IMPACT's. You have to live with the reality, for Michael it's just another days work and he'll be off to some other dispute in a few weeks time.
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Having been to the meeting and read the proposals very carefully, on the whole i welcome it. The main issues of staffing do appear to be in the process of being adressed.
There are some very good outcomes too with rosters and breaks etc.
While i welcome the proposals i would till say that caution is advised especially from here on. Remember these are just what they say they are-proposals. Also bear in mind that mismanagement still have to clarify and accept a lot of whats in that document. If they do then i think i will vote for it.
If they dont clarify and accept then we are back to the start again and all that entails. Actions speak louder than words and we should all play close attention to whether the IAA are actually doing what they say they will do. The real test for them will be the direct atco recruitment. It may take a concerted effort to recruit the 20-22 direct atco's. A one time AD in flight international will not suffice. it may take multiple efforts over the next 9 months to get the 22. But this is what they must do and be seen to do.
So for me the issue was always staff and i think my concerns will be met if what has been stated becomes reality.
If it is voted for then the overtime system comes into existence. Nothing more. It will then be up to each to decide whether the measly amount of 30-40 euro's a week is enough to compensate you for 12 rest days. I for one will not be signing up for it. I will respect anyone who does but i wont agree with their decision to do so. In fact i would express my opinion that no atco should sign up to it while respecting the minority few who will.
I will also express my opinion that no controller should agree to any casual overtime (as was there before) while respecting the minority few that will do it. Basically i would urge all atco's to use their right to decline voluntary call-ins/overtime.
I will also express my opinion that no controller should agree to any ad-hoc overtime. When your duty finishes -it finishes. No extending of duties.
I will of course respect anyone who does agree to extend their duty for a few pieces of silver but i wont agree with their decision.
As for looking for an apology from certain people or the company-i don't want one. I have said it before that it would be insincere and i would not believe it -so i dont want an apology.
But their misdeeds will be felt for a long time to come. Remeber no further change will be delivered on credit. This will have big implications for their projects and other fancy notions. The have blown away all good will and they will now reap what they sow from that.
In time to come they will regret their actions/inaction/libel/slander/and breaches of confidence so much that will wish that an apology would ease their pain.
What is likely to happen tho' is that some of these people will "slip quietly into the night" never to be seen again.
Others will be moved sideways or otherwise sidelined to mark out their time until they go with a full pension.
I must say that i have had grave doubts about Impact and our reps in the past but credit where credit is due. I say well done to them ,they have played a blinder. I thank them for their time effort and patience.
But also remember that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. At the moment the ingredients sound and look good but we haven't tasted the cake just yet.
Remeber stay strong,stay united and let our actions from here on in send a message.
yours as ever
OCK1F
There are some very good outcomes too with rosters and breaks etc.
While i welcome the proposals i would till say that caution is advised especially from here on. Remember these are just what they say they are-proposals. Also bear in mind that mismanagement still have to clarify and accept a lot of whats in that document. If they do then i think i will vote for it.
If they dont clarify and accept then we are back to the start again and all that entails. Actions speak louder than words and we should all play close attention to whether the IAA are actually doing what they say they will do. The real test for them will be the direct atco recruitment. It may take a concerted effort to recruit the 20-22 direct atco's. A one time AD in flight international will not suffice. it may take multiple efforts over the next 9 months to get the 22. But this is what they must do and be seen to do.
So for me the issue was always staff and i think my concerns will be met if what has been stated becomes reality.
If it is voted for then the overtime system comes into existence. Nothing more. It will then be up to each to decide whether the measly amount of 30-40 euro's a week is enough to compensate you for 12 rest days. I for one will not be signing up for it. I will respect anyone who does but i wont agree with their decision to do so. In fact i would express my opinion that no atco should sign up to it while respecting the minority few who will.
I will also express my opinion that no controller should agree to any casual overtime (as was there before) while respecting the minority few that will do it. Basically i would urge all atco's to use their right to decline voluntary call-ins/overtime.
I will also express my opinion that no controller should agree to any ad-hoc overtime. When your duty finishes -it finishes. No extending of duties.
I will of course respect anyone who does agree to extend their duty for a few pieces of silver but i wont agree with their decision.
As for looking for an apology from certain people or the company-i don't want one. I have said it before that it would be insincere and i would not believe it -so i dont want an apology.
But their misdeeds will be felt for a long time to come. Remeber no further change will be delivered on credit. This will have big implications for their projects and other fancy notions. The have blown away all good will and they will now reap what they sow from that.
In time to come they will regret their actions/inaction/libel/slander/and breaches of confidence so much that will wish that an apology would ease their pain.
What is likely to happen tho' is that some of these people will "slip quietly into the night" never to be seen again.
Others will be moved sideways or otherwise sidelined to mark out their time until they go with a full pension.
I must say that i have had grave doubts about Impact and our reps in the past but credit where credit is due. I say well done to them ,they have played a blinder. I thank them for their time effort and patience.
But also remember that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. At the moment the ingredients sound and look good but we haven't tasted the cake just yet.
Remeber stay strong,stay united and let our actions from here on in send a message.
yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 27th Feb 2008 at 09:14.
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The public perception of us at the moment is that we are greedy civil servants. This reputation has been created by management's doing over the past few weeks.
Why would a public who have an average wage that is half the current average ATCO salary (the real one not the MOL version) and who if they can get overtime get 1.5 times the normal rate and who can in some cases desire to do overtime but get paid nothing more if it is not available and who only get the minimum legal annual leave entitlement and who have diddly squat in terms of job security think of the proposals for paying people just to say they will think about doing overtime but only if it suits them and then being paid a whole shift at double time for working 5 days in a row, then having 2 off before going back to work.
Much was made about the safety issues surrounding overtime. But those safety fears evaporate in the face of double time.
The public would probably say that there should be no overtime and that there should be a more reasonable amount of annual leave available and that the hours worked should be maximised in accordance with a scheme like the UK regulation for ATCO hours and that staff sitting scratching their ass for hours on end should be better used.
All this talk of "take the deal and take the money then refuse to do part of the deal" says it all about the money factor.
Regards,
DFC
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Dfc-you still here. That last post was your worst ever. there are so many lies,inaccuracies and walter mitty ideas in it its un-believable. In fact that what it is- un believable.
your total lack of ability to absorb any idea or point of view other that your own, and your complete lack of basic logic and basic thought processes astound me , and all who read your rantings. It does genuinely make me very concerned if you are either 1) a pilot 2) Atco 3) flight dispatcher 4) baggage handler 5) bin man or in fact any job that involves higher brain functions and mechanical machinery that moves.
The safety issues are still there, single,double or treble time. Most people still wont do overtime but not for the reasons you think. And those that will do it in the future will now have restrictions on the length and number of overtime duties they can carry out in each twist,month and year where no restricions applied before. WHY? Because its not safe to do excessive overtime and ideally no overtime should be needed or done.
I actually agree with most of that statement but the end of it just shows how out of touch you are. Sitting around scratching anything would be great but we dont have the time-traffic levels versus available staff sees to that.
Are you capable of saying anything without it being unnecessarily obtuse ,insulting,misinformed,wrong or is it really that you cannot resist ANY opportunity to preach and piss people off.
Or are you just a social misfit?
Its a pity 'cos every now and again you get so close to making a reasonable point but then you always blow it with idiotic contentions , misinformed opinion and sometimes just downright hostility and lies.
Like i said a pity 'cos this is meant to a forum for debate not for walter mitty debates. Your post have precluded you from really participating in this debate-your loss-definitely not ours
Yours as ever
OCK1F
your total lack of ability to absorb any idea or point of view other that your own, and your complete lack of basic logic and basic thought processes astound me , and all who read your rantings. It does genuinely make me very concerned if you are either 1) a pilot 2) Atco 3) flight dispatcher 4) baggage handler 5) bin man or in fact any job that involves higher brain functions and mechanical machinery that moves.
Much was made about the safety issues surrounding overtime. But those safety fears evaporate in the face of double time
The public would probably say that there should be no overtime and that there should be a more reasonable amount of annual leave available and that the hours worked should be maximised in accordance with a scheme like the UK regulation for ATCO hours and that staff sitting scratching their ass for hours on end should be better used.
Are you capable of saying anything without it being unnecessarily obtuse ,insulting,misinformed,wrong or is it really that you cannot resist ANY opportunity to preach and piss people off.
Or are you just a social misfit?
Its a pity 'cos every now and again you get so close to making a reasonable point but then you always blow it with idiotic contentions , misinformed opinion and sometimes just downright hostility and lies.
Like i said a pity 'cos this is meant to a forum for debate not for walter mitty debates. Your post have precluded you from really participating in this debate-your loss-definitely not ours
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 27th Feb 2008 at 09:40.
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The public would also prob say that pilots are obsolete as the planes fly themselves most of the time........but you still have to sit there scratching your ass DFC..... ATCOS have respect for the flying community and the job they do and know that it entails more that that
Maybe you are reading a different thread or maybe you are just so bitter against ATCOs that you haven't noticed that most of the posters on here have said they will accept the agreement as the IAA have proposed to do something about the staffing levels......which is what they said all along and is what everybody has been pointing out to you for quite a while now..
If I have to explain......
I'm beginning to think you have just escaped from somewhere where you should have been safely locked up
Maybe you are reading a different thread or maybe you are just so bitter against ATCOs that you haven't noticed that most of the posters on here have said they will accept the agreement as the IAA have proposed to do something about the staffing levels......which is what they said all along and is what everybody has been pointing out to you for quite a while now..
If I have to explain......
I'm beginning to think you have just escaped from somewhere where you should have been safely locked up
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more disinformation
Honestly DFC, you would make yourself seem mildly intelligent, if you could actually cite examples to back up your claims -
exactly what words of ours did they use?
what is the "minimum annual leave entitlement" , and what is the source?
can you back this up.
The Labour Court have not published anything yet, and its not on Wiki, and if you Google it you wont find it.
You sure as hell have not seen the ATC document, no-one has leaked that to your buddys in rIAAnair
you dont know the mechanics of the labour court ruling, how could you possibly comment on what is part ,or not, of this recommendation.
I'll repeat that word for you recommendation not "deal"
Would you please attempt to address these issues that are stated above
I fear that you wont be able to, and will just ignore this post. its a pity, since i'm one of the few that is trying to educate you with facts - not opinion, not past history, just facts
Surprise me
Regards
Irishatco
"an unchecked lie becomes the truth"
- would appear to be your way of doing business
It wasn't Management's doing - they simply sat back and used your own words and actions against you. Very effectively ity seems.
and who only get the minimum legal annual leave entitlement
Much was made about the safety issues surrounding overtime. But those safety fears evaporate in the face of double time
The Labour Court have not published anything yet, and its not on Wiki, and if you Google it you wont find it.
You sure as hell have not seen the ATC document, no-one has leaked that to your buddys in rIAAnair
All this talk of "take the deal and take the money then refuse to do part of the deal" says it all about the money factor.
I'll repeat that word for you recommendation not "deal"
Would you please attempt to address these issues that are stated above
I fear that you wont be able to, and will just ignore this post. its a pity, since i'm one of the few that is trying to educate you with facts - not opinion, not past history, just facts
Surprise me
Regards
Irishatco
The Labour Court Recommendation is privileged to both parties initially (think 7 days).
So all commentary in the news is based on the slant given by the source of the info (Management or Union).
The media and public do not have time or expertise to get to the complex details of any situation and will take commentary from percieved experts or informed sources.
At the info meeting the NEC did a good job in addressing the concerns of members.
If anyone has any queries the NEC is the place for answers not the media.
The recommendation will be balloted on once the minor details are sorted.
It has always been about staff numbers.
8 Contract staff (fixed duration)to be recruited asap.
A further 12 direct entry (full time) to be recruited also.
The new student class of 36 will start on 3/3/8.
After 18 months all who succeed will be available on the roster.
So we have got some staff with more in the pipeline.
That been said there will be staff shortages for the next 18 months anyhow.
Consequently there will at some stage be the inevitable delays and/or closures.
The proposed overtime scheme it will be voluntary.
You can sign up if you wish or keep your rest days its your decision.
If you sign up you must attend when called.
The old arrangement will run in tandem and here if it dosent suit you can say no.
There is now a maximum number of duties that you can attend per month.
Statutory holiday entitlements =>rough rule of thumb 8 Hours AL for every 100 Hours worked + Bank Holidays. Dept of trade and employment publishes a handbook on this.
So all commentary in the news is based on the slant given by the source of the info (Management or Union).
The media and public do not have time or expertise to get to the complex details of any situation and will take commentary from percieved experts or informed sources.
At the info meeting the NEC did a good job in addressing the concerns of members.
If anyone has any queries the NEC is the place for answers not the media.
The recommendation will be balloted on once the minor details are sorted.
It has always been about staff numbers.
8 Contract staff (fixed duration)to be recruited asap.
A further 12 direct entry (full time) to be recruited also.
The new student class of 36 will start on 3/3/8.
After 18 months all who succeed will be available on the roster.
So we have got some staff with more in the pipeline.
That been said there will be staff shortages for the next 18 months anyhow.
Consequently there will at some stage be the inevitable delays and/or closures.
The proposed overtime scheme it will be voluntary.
You can sign up if you wish or keep your rest days its your decision.
If you sign up you must attend when called.
The old arrangement will run in tandem and here if it dosent suit you can say no.
There is now a maximum number of duties that you can attend per month.
Statutory holiday entitlements =>rough rule of thumb 8 Hours AL for every 100 Hours worked + Bank Holidays. Dept of trade and employment publishes a handbook on this.
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Dee Mac
What you suggest is exactly what we will be doing in EIDW .
Most of us feel that the priority given to staffing, on leave, breaks, experts and family policies meet 99% of our reasons for starting down this road and would ordinarily have merited a yes vote. But no matter what we will not do Overtime, Ad-Hoc or otherwise until IAA make serious noises either in a public fashion or directly to staff. I outlined in an earilier post what I will be doing, if I get an apology (doubtful) I'll see that copies of same make it onto notice boards in all 3 stations and if I don't , i'll post my solicitors advice on this forum
Maybe 20 or so solicitors letters to La C****n will achieve something.
As to public perception, so what, we live in the Sky News era and the public have the attention span of daffodils! We'll be forgotten about on Monday. Ambulance Drivers and Nurses are balloting for strike so there's plenty of fresh meat for the media.
Do the worst we can and stay united, think about accepting the package but not doing the overtime, management expect a 60% sign up for the ot scheme but don't do it, in a month, when airports are closed they'll have to admit to shortages.
For all you DFC fans, we should know exactly who he is very soon!!
Someone at yesterdays meeting said to me on the QT that they know but want to be double sure, i just have to catch up with them.
Stay united take what we want and f**k the call in scheme
What you suggest is exactly what we will be doing in EIDW .
Most of us feel that the priority given to staffing, on leave, breaks, experts and family policies meet 99% of our reasons for starting down this road and would ordinarily have merited a yes vote. But no matter what we will not do Overtime, Ad-Hoc or otherwise until IAA make serious noises either in a public fashion or directly to staff. I outlined in an earilier post what I will be doing, if I get an apology (doubtful) I'll see that copies of same make it onto notice boards in all 3 stations and if I don't , i'll post my solicitors advice on this forum
Maybe 20 or so solicitors letters to La C****n will achieve something.As to public perception, so what, we live in the Sky News era and the public have the attention span of daffodils! We'll be forgotten about on Monday. Ambulance Drivers and Nurses are balloting for strike so there's plenty of fresh meat for the media.
Do the worst we can and stay united, think about accepting the package but not doing the overtime, management expect a 60% sign up for the ot scheme but don't do it, in a month, when airports are closed they'll have to admit to shortages.
For all you DFC fans, we should know exactly who he is very soon!!
Someone at yesterdays meeting said to me on the QT that they know but want to be double sure, i just have to catch up with them.
Stay united take what we want and f**k the call in scheme
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The proposed overtime scheme it will be voluntary.
If you sign up you must attend when called.
There is now a maximum number of duties that you can attend per month.
8 Contract staff (fixed duration)to be recruited asap.
A further 12 direct entry (full time) to be recruited also.
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3 year contracts
With nearly 20 percent (guesstimate) of the staff eligible for retirement in 4 - 6 years why are the IAA only agreeing a staffing strategy for 3 years. It seems to me that they are determined to run the service down.
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With nearly 20 percent (guesstimate) of the staff eligible for retirement in 4 - 6 years why are the IAA only agreeing a staffing strategy for 3 years. It seems to me that they are determined to run the service down.
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Really...!!!
SM4 Pirate,
Is that really true, some already have contracts?
I would be among the direct entry applicants from last November when contacted by HR to do so.
Nothing heard officially by me (or ex colleagues in the Military), other than rumour and assumptions by those "in the know".
Can someone enlighten me? (Even a PM would be welcome)
Sylvester
Is that really true, some already have contracts?
I would be among the direct entry applicants from last November when contacted by HR to do so.
Nothing heard officially by me (or ex colleagues in the Military), other than rumour and assumptions by those "in the know".
Can someone enlighten me? (Even a PM would be welcome)
Sylvester
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"A heads up-and most importantly keep this to yourself and do not broadcast on PPRUNE.
You may of course PM people who you know/trust and by word of mouth with people you know and trust.
The IAA have let it be known that they have a list of names of the posters on pprune. So be very careful and sure about what you have said and more importantly you will say.
No name calling, slander, or anything that could hurt you if they decide to get nasty.
Just a heads up-stay safe"
You may of course PM people who you know/trust and by word of mouth with people you know and trust.
The IAA have let it be known that they have a list of names of the posters on pprune. So be very careful and sure about what you have said and more importantly you will say.
No name calling, slander, or anything that could hurt you if they decide to get nasty.
Just a heads up-stay safe"
So just to clarify, there is no way the IAA, or anyone else for that matter, can know who anyone is on PPRuNe unless the individual tells someone who they are (in which case, it's kind of their own fault anyway), or unless the IAA have hacked in to a private US internet hosting company and have also hacked in to any ISPs where the (generally anonymous) emails people have used to register are stored. The latter would both be highly illegal and worthy of a class action in the USA, which would guarantee the end of the line for the IAA and any of it's servants, if found guilty. Which also assumes they are capable of technically doing so. Make your own judgement on that.
PPRuNe will not disclose any private registration information, unless it is requested by a valid legal judgement. This would require jurisdiction first of all, followed by a complaint being accepted by a judge or similar within the area of jurisdiction. In this case, full co-ordination would take place with the PPRuNe member, since they are likely to be the ones being served notice ultimately.
The 'threats' or warnings would appear to be scaremongering by an organisation in fear, or by people who wish to sow seeds of panic. The users of PPRuNe need have no fear if they take sensible precautions, such as keeping their identity private, and keeping within the laws of libel when posting.
PPRuNe has had many legal threats over the years, by players much bigger, smarter, and richer, than the IAA. None have resulted in us having to reveal the name of a poster. Fact !!!