ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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Just saw this on the IAA website, think its the newest b..**** released
News & Press Releases
Date: February 24 2008
Headline: IAA CALLS ON IMPACT TO SETTLE DISPUTE FOR NO MONEY
24 FEBRUARY 2008: The IAA today calls on the IMPACT Trade Union to be clear and honest about the real issues at the Labour Court tomorrow and stop "fogging" their payment demands with made up staff shortages. In over 40 hours of talks at the Labour Relations Commission(LRC) to date, the issue of staff shortages has been discussed only 10% of the time while the Air Traffic Controllers' demands for more overtime pay and enhanced call in payments have been discussed 90% of the time. In the current negotiations on an alternate on-call/extra attendance arrangement at the LRC, Air Traffic Controllers are demanding an 11,000 payment for being on-call for 12 days per annum with an obligation to work only six. This works out at 1,833 per attendance. They are also demanding 125 per hour for any attendance over and above that level, including a minimum six hours payment for any attendance. This would amount to over 1,000 for an average duty and 750 for a one-two hour extension of a duty. An Air Traffic Controller at Heathrow Airport, London receives Stg£550 for a full shift of additional attendance.
There is no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority. Sufficient staff are available to match the level of traffic at any given time and are deployed in accordance with international safety standards. Staff plans are agreed on an annual basis. The Authority totally rejects IMPACT's assertion that it has accepted in talks at the LRC, that any shortage of controllers exist. This is NOT the case and never has been as the Authority has consistently pointed out in press releases.
The Irish Air Traffic Control System is not dependent on overtime. The average overtime attendance by Air Traffic Controllers in 2007 was less than one hour per week. The highest level of overtime in 2007 by an Air Traffic Controller was 302 hours a year or 6.5 hours per week on average.
The Authority recruits and trains Air Traffic Controllers (it takes 18-24 months at a cost of 270,000 to train one controller paid exclusively by the IAA). As part of its manpower planning to meet forecasted traffic demands and expectant retirements, and not in response to IMPACT allegations of staff shortages, 36 students will commence training with the IAA in 10 days time. These will be fully operational in mid-2009. The advertisements to recruit these staff were placed in September 2007, months ahead of IMPACT action. A further class of students will commence early next year. There are 295 Air Traffic Controllers employed at present in Dublin, Shannon and Cork Airports.
This is an entirely made up dispute in that no "staffing issues" arose in the busy Summer and Christmas periods when traffic was at its peak and also maximum staff were on leave. The current disruptive action is orchestrated to ensure that the IAA is short of staff at key periods and for safety reasons the IAA has had to restrict traffic, reduce services or close airports.
Controllers were awarded an additional 5% pay increase in December 2007 in addition to the 10% paid under Towards 2016, despite claiming over 30%. From 1 January 2008 Air Traffic Controllers on the maximum of their scale, are paid 107,884 and the IAA makes a pension contribution of 31% giving a total remuneration package of 141,328 excluding overtime. Air Traffic Controllers enjoy a Defined Benefit Pension Scheme to which they contribute nothing. They may retire at 60 and receive half of their salary as pension (subject to service), in addition to a lump sum of one and a half times their salary.
The IAA calls on IMPACT to settle this dispute for no additional payments and inform the public that it will accept and publish the Labour Court recommendation in full.
ENDS
For further information contact;
Lilian Cassin
Corporate Communications Manager
Irish Aviation Authority
Tel: 087 647 4079
^ top of page
News & Press Releases
Date: February 24 2008
Headline: IAA CALLS ON IMPACT TO SETTLE DISPUTE FOR NO MONEY
24 FEBRUARY 2008: The IAA today calls on the IMPACT Trade Union to be clear and honest about the real issues at the Labour Court tomorrow and stop "fogging" their payment demands with made up staff shortages. In over 40 hours of talks at the Labour Relations Commission(LRC) to date, the issue of staff shortages has been discussed only 10% of the time while the Air Traffic Controllers' demands for more overtime pay and enhanced call in payments have been discussed 90% of the time. In the current negotiations on an alternate on-call/extra attendance arrangement at the LRC, Air Traffic Controllers are demanding an 11,000 payment for being on-call for 12 days per annum with an obligation to work only six. This works out at 1,833 per attendance. They are also demanding 125 per hour for any attendance over and above that level, including a minimum six hours payment for any attendance. This would amount to over 1,000 for an average duty and 750 for a one-two hour extension of a duty. An Air Traffic Controller at Heathrow Airport, London receives Stg£550 for a full shift of additional attendance.
There is no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority. Sufficient staff are available to match the level of traffic at any given time and are deployed in accordance with international safety standards. Staff plans are agreed on an annual basis. The Authority totally rejects IMPACT's assertion that it has accepted in talks at the LRC, that any shortage of controllers exist. This is NOT the case and never has been as the Authority has consistently pointed out in press releases.
The Irish Air Traffic Control System is not dependent on overtime. The average overtime attendance by Air Traffic Controllers in 2007 was less than one hour per week. The highest level of overtime in 2007 by an Air Traffic Controller was 302 hours a year or 6.5 hours per week on average.
The Authority recruits and trains Air Traffic Controllers (it takes 18-24 months at a cost of 270,000 to train one controller paid exclusively by the IAA). As part of its manpower planning to meet forecasted traffic demands and expectant retirements, and not in response to IMPACT allegations of staff shortages, 36 students will commence training with the IAA in 10 days time. These will be fully operational in mid-2009. The advertisements to recruit these staff were placed in September 2007, months ahead of IMPACT action. A further class of students will commence early next year. There are 295 Air Traffic Controllers employed at present in Dublin, Shannon and Cork Airports.
This is an entirely made up dispute in that no "staffing issues" arose in the busy Summer and Christmas periods when traffic was at its peak and also maximum staff were on leave. The current disruptive action is orchestrated to ensure that the IAA is short of staff at key periods and for safety reasons the IAA has had to restrict traffic, reduce services or close airports.
Controllers were awarded an additional 5% pay increase in December 2007 in addition to the 10% paid under Towards 2016, despite claiming over 30%. From 1 January 2008 Air Traffic Controllers on the maximum of their scale, are paid 107,884 and the IAA makes a pension contribution of 31% giving a total remuneration package of 141,328 excluding overtime. Air Traffic Controllers enjoy a Defined Benefit Pension Scheme to which they contribute nothing. They may retire at 60 and receive half of their salary as pension (subject to service), in addition to a lump sum of one and a half times their salary.
The IAA calls on IMPACT to settle this dispute for no additional payments and inform the public that it will accept and publish the Labour Court recommendation in full.
ENDS
For further information contact;
Lilian Cassin
Corporate Communications Manager
Irish Aviation Authority
Tel: 087 647 4079
^ top of page
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Just a quick note a UK en-route sector is NEVER operated single staffed. A T and P is always on duty H24. To imply otherwise is just wrong.
And if a flow person came over to me and asked if i "could squeeze another one in to save them a delay" the answer would be a very quick and nasty two word answer. I'll do my job correctly by refusing and they should do theirs by not asking.
The monitor values are not a capacity figure with a glass ceiling. They are a value which 'triggers' the flow people to consider whether the demand can be managed or not by the system. They typically provide a 30% buffer below the probable ultimate capacity of the sector. So, as I say, if you are operating a sector with a monitor value of 30-40 an hour, you'd never notice that extra one unless you went and did a traffic count.In units where the flow people are also valid controllers, they are well able to judge the complexity of the traffic demand, the capacity for the sector to handle a few extras based on the exact traffic situation and loading, and the abilities of the team who are providing the ATS. If they are not happy, then they'll regulate accordingly. But if the flow kit is showing a traffic flow with the sector at or near the volume, yet you are literally sitting twiddling your thumbs, they will get on with maximising the traffic flows without necessarily informing the sector team, provided they are confident there will be no overload situation. It comes down to judgement and experience, as well as having a bigger picture than the sector ATCO can have at any given time.
The London FMP and LAS setup might not provide the opportunity to be quite so dynamic I accept, but I know they also beaver away to reduce delays as much as they can
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Not everywhere, unless you mean Swanwick is the UK
Point taken.I understand that flow could increase the count without me knowing, and i'm sure they have done so and to the most part it works. I was just saying that if someone came to me from flow and said that, i would not be a happy bunny.
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Well, the latest IAA press release keeps everything nicely on the boil for tomorrow's negotiations at the Labour Court. A great way to make friends and influence people and aid arriving at an relatively mutual and peaceful resolution and understanding of the dispute.
I despair of Irish public service managements.
I despair of Irish public service managements.
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Reading the latest IAA 'Pravda' contribution above, I hope the operational ATCOs give the IAA a taste of what your rugby team gave mine at the weekend. A sound thrashing and a healthy dose of humiliation.
It must take the patience of Job (or a Saint) for the Impact union folks to watch diatribe after diatribe come from the employer and not publicy attack them and destroy them in a like for like manner purely for their own satisfaction and revenge.
It must take the patience of Job (or a Saint) for the Impact union folks to watch diatribe after diatribe come from the employer and not publicy attack them and destroy them in a like for like manner purely for their own satisfaction and revenge.
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Dear God the arrogance is astounding.
I for one will quite happily settle this for no money as long as you stump up the staff. You cant have it both ways.
If you dont pay me for overtime then i wont EVER do any. And neither will any other ATCO-so yeah count me in. Give us the staff-you keep the money and the overtime.
I won't even dignify the money question with a full answer just that suffice to say that you want me to work on my days off for diddly. Go take a run and jump. The only one fogging the issue here is you -the IAA.
Where have you been for the last month? How can anyone say that we are not reliant on overtime when the staff decide not to work on their days off and you have to shut dublin,shannon and cork. "Sufficient staff are available ...and deployed in accordance with international safety standards"- pure lies. IAA please explain why staff had to fight for breaks after two hours+ of controllling?-its because you want us to work for 4 hours+-hows that for international safety standards? How come when staff do work longer than 2 hours without a break you wont accept an safty report or MOR?-Hows that for a safety standards? when staff are forced to work more traffic than agreed maximums where are your safety standards?
Looks like you dont even know your own staff demographics-all you have to do is look around any of the 3 centers and all you see is OAP's ( sorry lads!) who are due to go in under 5 years. In case you dont know there is a HUNDRED of 'em. And you think 36 will plug the gap-go back to school.
I take it so that you were LYING when you said that the early retirees willl be coming back to help out-so more OAP's doing this job. Come on-this is a direct challenge-which is it?
The ONLY reason there was no delays last summer and christmas was WE did bags of overtime. I am guilty of working 2 extra shifts in one twist - just so you know that 7 days on and 1 day off all to keep the company smelling like roses while we deal with the sh
t that you have created.
This is a regular occurence so i do not believe single word you have said as i have personal experience to the contrary.
As for "orchestrating " this dispute-go on keep digging. So we are defrauding the company are we? Inform the medical council that a huge number of their doctors are engaged in fradulent activities by certifing controllers as not fit when in fact they are. Go on - lets see you do that.????
Just so you know EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY GETS THAT- including you , the postman,the secretary, the binman etc - so what has that got to do with this?
Really didnt know that but thanks anyway-so can you explain why it isn't in my pay check?
Whatver about Impact i will quite happily settle this for NO MONEY as long as you GIVE US THE STAFF. ME never doing overtime again will be great.
If the IAA think that childish drivel and insults will make us call off thursday and do all the mandatory overtime in the world then this is really a great way to do it.
I really do wonder about their intelligence,managerial skills, people skills, planning skills, organisational skills, Hr skills and for the first time i have serious concerns for the future of this company.
GOD help us
IAA CALLS ON IMPACT TO SETTLE DISPUTE FOR NO MONEY
If you dont pay me for overtime then i wont EVER do any. And neither will any other ATCO-so yeah count me in. Give us the staff-you keep the money and the overtime.
I won't even dignify the money question with a full answer just that suffice to say that you want me to work on my days off for diddly. Go take a run and jump. The only one fogging the issue here is you -the IAA.
There is no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority. Sufficient staff are available to match the level of traffic at any given time and are deployed in accordance with international safety standards. Staff plans are agreed on an annual basis. The Authority totally rejects IMPACT's assertion that it has accepted in talks at the LRC, that any shortage of controllers exist. This is NOT the case and never has been as the Authority has consistently pointed out in press releases.
The Irish Air Traffic Control System is not dependent on overtime
The Irish Air Traffic Control System is not dependent on overtime
As part of its manpower planning to meet forecasted traffic demands and expectant retirements, and not in response to IMPACT allegations of staff shortages, 36 students will commence training with the IAA in 10 days time.
I take it so that you were LYING when you said that the early retirees willl be coming back to help out-so more OAP's doing this job. Come on-this is a direct challenge-which is it?
This is an entirely made up dispute in that no "staffing issues" arose in the busy Summer and Christmas periods when traffic was at its peak and also maximum staff were on leave. The current disruptive action is orchestrated to ensure that the IAA is short of staff at key periods and for safety reasons the IAA has had to restrict traffic, reduce services or close airports.
t that you have created.This is a regular occurence so i do not believe single word you have said as i have personal experience to the contrary.
As for "orchestrating " this dispute-go on keep digging. So we are defrauding the company are we? Inform the medical council that a huge number of their doctors are engaged in fradulent activities by certifing controllers as not fit when in fact they are. Go on - lets see you do that.????
10% paid under Towards 2016
Controllers were awarded an additional 5% pay increase in December 200
The IAA calls on IMPACT to settle this dispute for no additional payments and inform the public
If the IAA think that childish drivel and insults will make us call off thursday and do all the mandatory overtime in the world then this is really a great way to do it.
I really do wonder about their intelligence,managerial skills, people skills, planning skills, organisational skills, Hr skills and for the first time i have serious concerns for the future of this company.
GOD help us
Last edited by ock1f; 24th Feb 2008 at 23:11.
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I had to check on www.iaa.ie that this wasn't a joke
but it's really up there
Sorry for doubting you, alwaysmovin
All together now, folks at Aviation house....Ready....Aim at own feet......Fire!
Well done - BULLSEYE
but it's really up thereSorry for doubting you, alwaysmovin
All together now, folks at Aviation house....Ready....Aim at own feet......Fire!
Well done - BULLSEYE
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iaa press release - plagiarism?
hey, i think that ryIAAnair should get their solicitors on this.
this new press release is almost certainly stolen from the ryIAAnair web
site, and assorted media mutterings. its just about word for word
who is the FR mole leaking this info to the IAA? does MOL know?
and for that matter, IBEC/LRC should also consult with their legal eagles, as i fear that Lil has pinched their stuff too!
Bring it on, i'll be the ATCO with the placard outside your building on Thursday.
See ya
this new press release is almost certainly stolen from the ryIAAnair web
site, and assorted media mutterings. its just about word for word
who is the FR mole leaking this info to the IAA? does MOL know?
and for that matter, IBEC/LRC should also consult with their legal eagles, as i fear that Lil has pinched their stuff too!
Bring it on, i'll be the ATCO with the placard outside your building on Thursday.
See ya
Last edited by irishatco; 24th Feb 2008 at 22:50. Reason: cant spell
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The IAA can rest assured that this dispute can be settled for no money.
ATCOs don't work overtime. IAA don't pay for overtime.
DISPUTE SETTLED
To all those entering negotiations tomorrow, make no mistake, this is the overriding sentiment among ATCOs.
ATCOs don't work overtime. IAA don't pay for overtime.
DISPUTE SETTLED
To all those entering negotiations tomorrow, make no mistake, this is the overriding sentiment among ATCOs.
Last edited by goodworker; 24th Feb 2008 at 23:22.
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IAA CALLS ON IMPACT TO SETTLE DISPUTE FOR NO MONEY
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Illness?
What's the meaning of "unusualy high levels of illness"?
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin.../mhojaumhsnid/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin.../mhojaumhsnid/
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And while I'm at it......
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin.../mheysnsnqlcw/
Tourism Ireland has said that it is vital the dispute between the Irish Aviation Authority and Air Traffic Contollers is resolved as quickly as possible.
Try replacing the word "quickly" with the word "safely" or we won't need a Tourism Board. And do it before the IAA replaces it with "cheaply"
Thorisgod
Tourism Ireland has said that it is vital the dispute between the Irish Aviation Authority and Air Traffic Contollers is resolved as quickly as possible.
Try replacing the word "quickly" with the word "safely" or we won't need a Tourism Board. And do it before the IAA replaces it with "cheaply"
Thorisgod
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We have the limelight to ourselves tomorrow
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Best wishes from the 'down under' controllers, either our managers are cloned from yours or vice versa. We will soon be heading down the same path if sanity and common sense do not prevail.
Most of us are tired of propping up the system and being fobbed off with vague promises that pay lip service to the staffing problem.It is particularly galling, after years of keeping the airspace open to the detriment of our families and health, to then be villified by management in the public arena as causing airspace closure.
All the best, it is no longer your problem, shortsighted management created the problem You are not responsible ,anymore, for fixing it. Enjoy your life, you only get one go.
Most of us are tired of propping up the system and being fobbed off with vague promises that pay lip service to the staffing problem.It is particularly galling, after years of keeping the airspace open to the detriment of our families and health, to then be villified by management in the public arena as causing airspace closure.
All the best, it is no longer your problem, shortsighted management created the problem You are not responsible ,anymore, for fixing it. Enjoy your life, you only get one go.
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Labour Court Today
Thanks, Down Under, for support.
I know Ock1f posted something similar but:
If we don't get satisfaction today then I think we should Big up and offer the following:
No extra charge for properly rostered overtime untill staff levels are at an acceptable level and overtime is no longer needed, (beyond emergencies)
In return for this the IAA would have to:
* Admit they are understaffed and have been for years. Which is a safety issue.
* Publish Rosters 6 weeks in advance (like they are supposed to do anyway). Failure to do this should incur a penalty payment in the form of a standby payment for any controller rostered for overtime, or the option to pull out for that month
* Admit that They (and IBEC and Ryanair) have published self-serving lies and half-truths since this debacle started.
* An unconditional apology published in the form of a large advert in National papers and Flight magazine, The controller, etc.
If they would do this, I swear even though I am not particularily interested in doing overtime that I would endeavour to be the first in the queue to volunteer.
Thorisgod.
I know Ock1f posted something similar but:
If we don't get satisfaction today then I think we should Big up and offer the following:
No extra charge for properly rostered overtime untill staff levels are at an acceptable level and overtime is no longer needed, (beyond emergencies)
In return for this the IAA would have to:
* Admit they are understaffed and have been for years. Which is a safety issue.
* Publish Rosters 6 weeks in advance (like they are supposed to do anyway). Failure to do this should incur a penalty payment in the form of a standby payment for any controller rostered for overtime, or the option to pull out for that month
* Admit that They (and IBEC and Ryanair) have published self-serving lies and half-truths since this debacle started.
* An unconditional apology published in the form of a large advert in National papers and Flight magazine, The controller, etc.
If they would do this, I swear even though I am not particularily interested in doing overtime that I would endeavour to be the first in the queue to volunteer.
Thorisgod.
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Thor, while i agree with a lot of the sentiment, i think that the iaa will need to get themselves out of this.
i dont do call-ins, as i appreciate my time off, the notion of giving up my precious time to them for nothing, just isnt palatable.
one solution can be to introduce flow control at all centres when there is a shortfall in the numbers - if you are to believe the iaa, then that will only be til June 09 when 36 new recruits will be fully operational.
IMHO - the call-in ban should continue until they produce actual controllers in the centres.
295 Controllers - so they are counting everyone that has or had a validation as a controller within the iaa - herself included!
what a joke.
I'll support my union, and stand on the picket when it happens. but we cant expect those muppets to do anything to resolve this " non-problem"
the overtime ban should suffice for the next while. a work to rule will also push the iaa to act.
airline summer timetables are coming at the end of march. the rosters require more staff, where will they come from?
not holding my breath
i dont do call-ins, as i appreciate my time off, the notion of giving up my precious time to them for nothing, just isnt palatable.
one solution can be to introduce flow control at all centres when there is a shortfall in the numbers - if you are to believe the iaa, then that will only be til June 09 when 36 new recruits will be fully operational.
IMHO - the call-in ban should continue until they produce actual controllers in the centres.
295 Controllers - so they are counting everyone that has or had a validation as a controller within the iaa - herself included!
what a joke.
I'll support my union, and stand on the picket when it happens. but we cant expect those muppets to do anything to resolve this " non-problem"
the overtime ban should suffice for the next while. a work to rule will also push the iaa to act.
airline summer timetables are coming at the end of march. the rosters require more staff, where will they come from?
not holding my breath
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thorisgod,
Based on the time of your post, I will put it down to simply being fissed as a part.
The only other way to explain it would be to throw it in with simple pure intimidation of the kind melted out to the poor ATCO who has the cheek to say that actually they did not mind doing the overtime and would not like it to be stopped or the attacks on the ATCO who facilitated the late Aer Lingus flight some days ago........not because they permitted a public transport flight ot land at a closed airport but because they broke ranks from the close the gates gang.
The vote for strike was not supported by 100% of the ATCOs in the IAA. The pressure on those that have the cheek to put forward an alternative view or to even consider such a position is unbelieveable. Phone calls, etc etc.
The only reason why I say what I do in my opening sentence is that I have spoken to you "thorisgod" and you are normally a reasonable person.
To drag a piece from the Sunday Indo-
What do we want: people who hide away their true personal convictions behind toughy-feely platitudes, or ones who state their opinions openly?
Debate? Argument? difference?
Glad to see that peoploe are finally waking up to the idea of keeping money out of the issue. Far too late unfortunately. The damage has been done.
So I have done two things;
I have aroused those who can't stand an alternative view to their own and who will go to any length to quash any person who does not share their view.
and
I have copper-fastened your resolve by generating debate.
Obvously the debate you did not want ot have.
Don't let anyone or anything stand between you and your money is how it looks.
After I made a comment regarding staffing elsewhere Macker rushed off to ask for figures. I don't think he got what he expected. Why did he not simply use the telephone rahther than showing the public that while Shannon Required Air and Ground H24 with more staff for "contingency and breaks", Manchester can sope with less staff while handling far more flights.
Not only should you be broadcasting the message that you do not require more money but that you will not stand in the way of a scheme for better use (more productivity) of available staff.
----------
PPRuNe Radar,
Thanks for confirming the staffing numbers.
Clear that it is not what is said but who says it when it comes to keeping people happy.
Regards,
DFC
Based on the time of your post, I will put it down to simply being fissed as a part.
The only other way to explain it would be to throw it in with simple pure intimidation of the kind melted out to the poor ATCO who has the cheek to say that actually they did not mind doing the overtime and would not like it to be stopped or the attacks on the ATCO who facilitated the late Aer Lingus flight some days ago........not because they permitted a public transport flight ot land at a closed airport but because they broke ranks from the close the gates gang.
The vote for strike was not supported by 100% of the ATCOs in the IAA. The pressure on those that have the cheek to put forward an alternative view or to even consider such a position is unbelieveable. Phone calls, etc etc.
The only reason why I say what I do in my opening sentence is that I have spoken to you "thorisgod" and you are normally a reasonable person.
To drag a piece from the Sunday Indo-
What do we want: people who hide away their true personal convictions behind toughy-feely platitudes, or ones who state their opinions openly?
Debate? Argument? difference?
Glad to see that peoploe are finally waking up to the idea of keeping money out of the issue. Far too late unfortunately. The damage has been done.
have served better than any kick in the arse to unite everyone else in this thread in common purpose.
Not just to try and get you banned!
But in copper-fastening our resolve by generating debate to bring peoples real issues to the fore
Not just to try and get you banned!
But in copper-fastening our resolve by generating debate to bring peoples real issues to the fore
I have aroused those who can't stand an alternative view to their own and who will go to any length to quash any person who does not share their view.
and
I have copper-fastened your resolve by generating debate.
Obvously the debate you did not want ot have.
Don't let anyone or anything stand between you and your money is how it looks.
After I made a comment regarding staffing elsewhere Macker rushed off to ask for figures. I don't think he got what he expected. Why did he not simply use the telephone rahther than showing the public that while Shannon Required Air and Ground H24 with more staff for "contingency and breaks", Manchester can sope with less staff while handling far more flights.
Not only should you be broadcasting the message that you do not require more money but that you will not stand in the way of a scheme for better use (more productivity) of available staff.
----------
PPRuNe Radar,
Thanks for confirming the staffing numbers.
Clear that it is not what is said but who says it when it comes to keeping people happy.
Regards,
DFC