ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Pearly White Gates
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I told you the Labour Court would be a complete and utter waste of time. My faith in IMPACT has all but disappeared. What did they get us, right back to square one 
Don't be swayed by eloquent speeches from the union reps tomorrow. Reject this proposal unless all you care about is more money
From what I've read so far none of you are like that
I want more staff and a public statement from the IAA retracting all their crap over the past few weeks and I'm not agreeing to anything until I get that.
I think that strike is called for, it's the only way these people will listen
Don't be swayed by eloquent speeches from the union reps tomorrow. Reject this proposal unless all you care about is more money
From what I've read so far none of you are like that
I want more staff and a public statement from the IAA retracting all their crap over the past few weeks and I'm not agreeing to anything until I get that.
I think that strike is called for, it's the only way these people will listen
Last edited by Yahweh; 25th Feb 2008 at 22:35.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Think about it!
1 IAA says they categorically are not understaffed.
2 Staff say they are.
3 Staff stop doing overtime to highlight this.
4 We end up in the Labour Court with a recommendation that we do overtime.
5 ?
Maybe an admission from the IAA that they were wrong and that they SLANDERED their staff in public because the bottom line is all that matters, i.e. they (IAA) are only in it for the money
Then 6 might read staff agree to do overtime (still don't think they'll get enough) and dig the company out, again!
P.S. Hope a monthly cap is going to be set on ad-hoc overtime otherwise this is back to square 1 and the IAA will appear to be right about us being in it for the money.
2 Staff say they are.
3 Staff stop doing overtime to highlight this.
4 We end up in the Labour Court with a recommendation that we do overtime.
5 ?
Maybe an admission from the IAA that they were wrong and that they SLANDERED their staff in public because the bottom line is all that matters, i.e. they (IAA) are only in it for the money
Then 6 might read staff agree to do overtime (still don't think they'll get enough) and dig the company out, again!
P.S. Hope a monthly cap is going to be set on ad-hoc overtime otherwise this is back to square 1 and the IAA will appear to be right about us being in it for the money.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATCOS have stated repeatedly through out this thread that they are regularly subjected to dangerously long periods of time in sometimes overloaded sectors.
We have concluded that the reasons for this is understaffing and expect the situation to improve with increased staffing.
Management deny that there are any staffing issues and have not acknowledged any of the issues. Why should they, There is no proof that controllers are stretched or that sectors are overloaded.
To the best of my knowledge only one controller has ever filed an MOR/SOR on these issues and withdrew the report under duress from manager.
We have ourselves been remiss in our duty of care to the traveling public in this regard and we should realise that MOR's are not just for reporting sick passengers.
We have concluded that the reasons for this is understaffing and expect the situation to improve with increased staffing.
Management deny that there are any staffing issues and have not acknowledged any of the issues. Why should they, There is no proof that controllers are stretched or that sectors are overloaded.
To the best of my knowledge only one controller has ever filed an MOR/SOR on these issues and withdrew the report under duress from manager.
We have ourselves been remiss in our duty of care to the traveling public in this regard and we should realise that MOR's are not just for reporting sick passengers.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well nothing has changed for me...
I have never done overtime and after this i still wont be doing overtime so where has all this gotten us?
Absolutely nowhere is where. I'm fed up with IMPACT. First they wont represent us and now when they do, they end up doing a crap job as always and management get what they want.
Until we have a guarantee of SCP 8, 9, 10, 11.... etc, and timetables as for when these classes will be planned to start, we are still relying heavily on an system run by overtime.
This payment of 4,000 euros a year "hello" money, is only until SCP 7 have checked out. But what then? We will be even more understaffed then than we are now.
I have never done overtime and after this i still wont be doing overtime so where has all this gotten us?
Absolutely nowhere is where. I'm fed up with IMPACT. First they wont represent us and now when they do, they end up doing a crap job as always and management get what they want.
Until we have a guarantee of SCP 8, 9, 10, 11.... etc, and timetables as for when these classes will be planned to start, we are still relying heavily on an system run by overtime.
This payment of 4,000 euros a year "hello" money, is only until SCP 7 have checked out. But what then? We will be even more understaffed then than we are now.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: upmehole
Age: 75
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JESUS CHRIST! just when you thought it couldn't get any worse with a phuckin' Turkey getting up on stage and humiliating us in front of the world...........
Now Dustin is representing us in the eurovision.
GOWONYAGUDTING!!!
Now Dustin is representing us in the eurovision.
GOWONYAGUDTING!!!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stick together
1. no leave
2. only way to get leave is for people to do call ins
3. no one will do call ins.
4. no leave
maybe if no one did callins until the chief exec resigned stating that he was sorry for being incompetent and dragging the name of all air traffic controllers through the mud we would get somewhere.
Ps could impact please employ some competent PR proffesional..... i hear steve staunton is free.
2. only way to get leave is for people to do call ins
3. no one will do call ins.
4. no leave
maybe if no one did callins until the chief exec resigned stating that he was sorry for being incompetent and dragging the name of all air traffic controllers through the mud we would get somewhere.
Ps could impact please employ some competent PR proffesional..... i hear steve staunton is free.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chiglet,
You can have 50 controllers on duty but if only one is plugged in then there is still only one controller staffing a position.
At Midnight especially this time of the year the 1 controller has all the frequencies banboxed and the term early go (which I am sure you are very familiar with ) is in effect.
1 plugged in at an airport with several movements. 2 Plugged in at an airport with 0 movements. Where in the world does not matter.
Oh and the AAODDNNSOO was not a local Manch agreement and was used elsewhere after Manch changed to the MMAANNOOO.
------------
The current proposals are easily interpreted as more money for the same old overtime. Clever proposal especially when so many said that overtime requirements were unsafe. No mention of the words "safe" "orderly" or "expeditious" in anything I have come across. Perhaps the objectives have changed.
Puts the ATCOs in a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't position.
Regards,
DFC
You can have 50 controllers on duty but if only one is plugged in then there is still only one controller staffing a position.
At Midnight especially this time of the year the 1 controller has all the frequencies banboxed and the term early go (which I am sure you are very familiar with
) is in effect.1 plugged in at an airport with several movements. 2 Plugged in at an airport with 0 movements. Where in the world does not matter.
Oh and the AAODDNNSOO was not a local Manch agreement and was used elsewhere after Manch changed to the MMAANNOOO.
------------
The current proposals are easily interpreted as more money for the same old overtime. Clever proposal especially when so many said that overtime requirements were unsafe. No mention of the words "safe" "orderly" or "expeditious" in anything I have come across. Perhaps the objectives have changed.
Puts the ATCOs in a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't position.
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ireland
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1 plugged in at an airport with several movements. 2 Plugged in at an airport with 0 movements. Where in the world does not matter.
shirley(sic) an airport with 0 movements is
(a) closed or
(b) disused
is there a (c)
it doesnt matter how many are on duty if it's (a) or (b)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ireland
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Puts the ATCOs in a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't position.
if so ,that is quite possibly the most reasoned, intelligent and truthful thing that you have ever posted, in your 1800 or so attempts ( i know i've read them all - painful in places!)
well done, good boy
see you next tuesday
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denial
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sick of this. For years, I've seen the service deteriorate. Poor equipment, procedures etc. No answer to it at all except **** the aircraft; No more direct routings, get them down to F270 by 12 degrees west, Leave them on the STAR, frequency changes every 10 minutes. And by the looks of it things will be worse still. Bravo IAA and bravo ATCo's for putting up with it. Throughout it all the attitude has been "Sure, what are you complaining about Paddy. All you have to do is sit here, and in forty years you'll get the pension.". You can take the ATCo out of the civil service.....
And now I find that IMPACT are selling me out as well. I never expected much from an outfit with career-minded people at the top but FUX ACHE! How to take a good impetus and co-opt it. Nobody goes looking for a fight but few run away from one with as little hesitation as IMPACT. "Here's a few extra bob for you, Now get your face back into that radar screen and forget about conditions or resources or respect.". Enough people will vote for it that don't have the gravel for a long, nasty fight and the public will believe that we are overpaid, underworked civil servants who jeopardised hospital flights and Children with Cancer flights to get some more. The slander will go unchecked, because, sure, we're poor Paddy the Controller who's always putting up with abuse anyway.
Lillian and Kavanagh and Ryan will continue to laugh at us.
The service will deteriorate and morale will plunge deeper still. And by next September we'll all be back in a conference room or auditorium giving out about our hours, and our annual leave, and our job sharing and it sickens me.
Sorry for depressing ye but I'm really fed up with this.
If you aren't happy vote No. Don't be put off with ****e about "it's the best deal we'll get and there'll be more down the line and we'll be having meetings about staffing next week.".
If the Labour court couldn't adjudicate on staffing levels then it should have kept it's nose out of this dispute, and if IMPACT are only interested in negotiating about money then they should also have kept their nose out of it.
If you aren't happy vote No.
Put up or Shut up.
I will always be; your Cutlery Thief.
And now I find that IMPACT are selling me out as well. I never expected much from an outfit with career-minded people at the top but FUX ACHE! How to take a good impetus and co-opt it. Nobody goes looking for a fight but few run away from one with as little hesitation as IMPACT. "Here's a few extra bob for you, Now get your face back into that radar screen and forget about conditions or resources or respect.". Enough people will vote for it that don't have the gravel for a long, nasty fight and the public will believe that we are overpaid, underworked civil servants who jeopardised hospital flights and Children with Cancer flights to get some more. The slander will go unchecked, because, sure, we're poor Paddy the Controller who's always putting up with abuse anyway.
Lillian and Kavanagh and Ryan will continue to laugh at us.
The service will deteriorate and morale will plunge deeper still. And by next September we'll all be back in a conference room or auditorium giving out about our hours, and our annual leave, and our job sharing and it sickens me.
Sorry for depressing ye but I'm really fed up with this.
If you aren't happy vote No. Don't be put off with ****e about "it's the best deal we'll get and there'll be more down the line and we'll be having meetings about staffing next week.".
If the Labour court couldn't adjudicate on staffing levels then it should have kept it's nose out of this dispute, and if IMPACT are only interested in negotiating about money then they should also have kept their nose out of it.
If you aren't happy vote No.
Put up or Shut up.
I will always be; your Cutlery Thief.
Last edited by The Cutlery Thief; 26th Feb 2008 at 10:53.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as an atco who worked overtime in the past my mind has been changed utterly over the last few weeks because of our treatment by iaa management through inaccurate press releases.why should i work over time for a miserly 30 something euro per week and help the iaa out of
the hole they continue to dig.so far i have heard no solid proposals on
staffing rosters annual leave etc all the things that we were in dispute
over i thought. management want overtime not us.treat them like they treat us and vote no and watch them squirm over the next eighteen months . entertainment like this cant be bought for thirty something a
week.
vote no no no noooooooo
the hole they continue to dig.so far i have heard no solid proposals on
staffing rosters annual leave etc all the things that we were in dispute
over i thought. management want overtime not us.treat them like they treat us and vote no and watch them squirm over the next eighteen months . entertainment like this cant be bought for thirty something a
week.
vote no no no noooooooo
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Pearly White Gates
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The current proposals are easily interpreted as more money for the same old overtime. Clever proposal especially when so many said that overtime requirements were unsafe. No mention of the words "safe" "orderly" or "expeditious" in anything I have come across. Perhaps the objectives have changed"
From reading the LRC proposal, I'm beginning to think that this whole thing was about money as far as impact were concerned. Never thought I would agree with DFC but if all of you accept this proposal than you are no better than the management who have been slandering us these past few weeks.
The meeting with the union today amounted to no more than "sure we'll keep talkin to management to get some more ATCO's in but nothing is agreed yet"
Back to square one. Thanks for nothing IMPACT
From reading the LRC proposal, I'm beginning to think that this whole thing was about money as far as impact were concerned. Never thought I would agree with DFC but if all of you accept this proposal than you are no better than the management who have been slandering us these past few weeks.
The meeting with the union today amounted to no more than "sure we'll keep talkin to management to get some more ATCO's in but nothing is agreed yet"
Back to square one. Thanks for nothing IMPACT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dublin
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a victory to the good guys
Right, not 100% complete but fresh from the union briefing at EIDW-4 SEP courses to be recruited-union to be directly involved in on-going manpower requirements. 20 to 22 direct entry contract/permanent controllers to be recruited. Extra rating courses for non rated and SNN app staff. Job sharing to increase to 18 by end 2010. Expert system to be made more secure for controllers. UCE system to be modified. 10 ATCO's guaranteed leave per day in DUB (2 per team, 3 per team in SNN). 5 and 3 roster to be maintained. Overtime is as per labour court recommendation, there will be limits on ammount each controller can do, if you have not exceeded your allowance management may ask you to attend for extra duties as at present (I dont intend doing any of them-just give me the extra staff and the guaranteed casual leave)
It is important to point out that these are the issues that staff and mismanagement have before them and no ballot will be presented to staff until mismanagement have accepted ALL of them. Some issues agreed already, waiting for management to agree to the rest of the details of the package.
Well thanks very much IAA, it looks like a staff victory to me, all I want now is a full apology for the disgraceful way we have been treated by IAA mismanagement and by that Judas Cassin woman.
Well done to the union having got us this far and remaining dignified in the face of amateur mismanagement antics.
It is important to point out that these are the issues that staff and mismanagement have before them and no ballot will be presented to staff until mismanagement have accepted ALL of them. Some issues agreed already, waiting for management to agree to the rest of the details of the package.
Well thanks very much IAA, it looks like a staff victory to me, all I want now is a full apology for the disgraceful way we have been treated by IAA mismanagement and by that Judas Cassin woman.
Well done to the union having got us this far and remaining dignified in the face of amateur mismanagement antics.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Pearly White Gates
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
290kts,
None of these issues have been agreed with management so until they do agree to them which seems unlikely, I don't believe this is any victory of the sort to be congratulating the union about. These are proposals that the union are going to put to management, don't consider them as anything more than that
None of these issues have been agreed with management so until they do agree to them which seems unlikely, I don't believe this is any victory of the sort to be congratulating the union about. These are proposals that the union are going to put to management, don't consider them as anything more than that
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never Forget...
I wonder if the bean counters in HQ have calculated the cost of the complete and utter loss of goodwill from ALL ATC staff yet?
When they do they can shove it up their bottom line.
Whatever happens from here on don't forget what your mismanagement really think of you.
When they do they can shove it up their bottom line.
Whatever happens from here on don't forget what your mismanagement really think of you.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wait some more....
Having been at the union meeting this morning, I hold in reserve any opinion of them for the moment. They have stated that certain parts of the proposal - the most important parts to me - such as some guaranteed leave per team per day, roster cycles and maximum hours - have not been agreed by mismanagement. Until they are agreed the union will not present anything to us to officially consider. The ball is back in mismanagements court - let them sort it out.
I for one will continue to exercise my right to refuse to do overtime.
I for one will continue to exercise my right to refuse to do overtime.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
proposals
Yahweh,
Either you were not at the meeting or were not listening......There were two outstanding issues which were still to be agreed upon. The union are not even prepared to Ballot staff unless the iaa management agree these points.
In my view the union have scored a big win here. Forget what is said in the media that can be dealt with another day. This dispute was always going to be sorted around a table at the LRC or Labour court.
As for the call in scheme. If a ballot is put before me to accept all of these proposals including the call in scheme I will accept it. Don't think the call in scheme is for me though so I will probably opt out of that.
Either you were not at the meeting or were not listening......There were two outstanding issues which were still to be agreed upon. The union are not even prepared to Ballot staff unless the iaa management agree these points.
In my view the union have scored a big win here. Forget what is said in the media that can be dealt with another day. This dispute was always going to be sorted around a table at the LRC or Labour court.
As for the call in scheme. If a ballot is put before me to accept all of these proposals including the call in scheme I will accept it. Don't think the call in scheme is for me though so I will probably opt out of that.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ireland
Age: 49
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We'll have to wait and see the outcome,
Maybe mismanagement are too busy trying to help our esteemed colleagues in rIAAnair.
Poor MOL's and Cawleys "improved" website seems not to working to well (anyone tried to book a flight or check in the last two days), perhaps MOL your IT people are overworked and underpaid.
He hasn't been in the media lately, wonder why... I'm sure the IAA will help in anyway it can, one good turn....
Pip Squalk
Maybe mismanagement are too busy trying to help our esteemed colleagues in rIAAnair.
Poor MOL's and Cawleys "improved" website seems not to working to well (anyone tried to book a flight or check in the last two days), perhaps MOL your IT people are overworked and underpaid.
He hasn't been in the media lately, wonder why... I'm sure the IAA will help in anyway it can, one good turn....
Pip Squalk