ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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Dee Mack,
The FIRs that the UK look after are;
London - EGTT
Scottish - EGPX
and
Shanwick - EGGX
The EG in the designator gives it away.
The ATS for the Shanwick FIR - EGGX is provided by the Prestwick OACC. However, various pieces of airtspace are delegated eg SOTA and NOTA.
When SOTA and NOTA were brought into being the FIR boundaries were not moved.
That is why it is described as delegated airspace. Similar pieces exist in ther Brest FIR - try telling the French that the DGAC can not investigate happenings there!
Regards,
DFC
DFC, your ignorance is astounding, The NOTA and the SOTA are not in the UK FIR.
London - EGTT
Scottish - EGPX
and
Shanwick - EGGX
The EG in the designator gives it away.
The ATS for the Shanwick FIR - EGGX is provided by the Prestwick OACC. However, various pieces of airtspace are delegated eg SOTA and NOTA.
When SOTA and NOTA were brought into being the FIR boundaries were not moved.
That is why it is described as delegated airspace. Similar pieces exist in ther Brest FIR - try telling the French that the DGAC can not investigate happenings there!
Regards,
DFC
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Oh Wise One
GENEX69, You speak a lot of sense here.
Our Primary dispute with the IAA must remain our primary focus or all is lost.
The legitimate concerns about LIBEL, CRONYISM and BREACH OF CONFIDENTIALLITY can be dealt with later.
Finish the OT dispute first and take the b*****ds to court later!
Our Primary dispute with the IAA must remain our primary focus or all is lost.
The legitimate concerns about LIBEL, CRONYISM and BREACH OF CONFIDENTIALLITY can be dealt with later.
Finish the OT dispute first and take the b*****ds to court later!
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Without wanting to sound cowardly how about we suggest to the Nat. Exec. that after thursday we ONLY close SNN High Level?
That way IBEC and O'Leary have nothing to whinge about but it kicks the IAA in the NUTS.
That way IBEC and O'Leary have nothing to whinge about but it kicks the IAA in the NUTS.
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http://www.ibec.ie/ibec/press/pressp...3?OpenDocument
Ibec statement in full!!!
Looks to me that the IAA wont be for turning on Monday...
Ohh this summer is going to be so much fun...if controllers on certified sick leave can shut Cork and Shannon and Dublin in Febuary imagine how much fun the IAA are going to have explaining themeselves this summer
Its going to be ******* chaos
and all the IAA's doing..
Nice one lads...stay strong...stay united.....we do our contracted hours and nothing more until this is solved to our satisfaction!!!!
As for Minister Noel Dempsey...
unless your going to get the army or gardai out with weapons to force me and my atco friends onto a radar screen then your talking a load of b
x!!!
Ibec statement in full!!!
Looks to me that the IAA wont be for turning on Monday...
Ohh this summer is going to be so much fun...if controllers on certified sick leave can shut Cork and Shannon and Dublin in Febuary imagine how much fun the IAA are going to have explaining themeselves this summer
Its going to be ******* chaos and all the IAA's doing..Nice one lads...stay strong...stay united.....we do our contracted hours and nothing more until this is solved to our satisfaction!!!!
As for Minister Noel Dempsey...
unless your going to get the army or gardai out with weapons to force me and my atco friends onto a radar screen then your talking a load of bx!!!
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IMPACT! Get the finger out!
I'm getting a bit tired of the misinformation that is going out. EireAtco has a good point, if the IAA don't step up to the plate and sort out the staffing issues ( which is the MAIN issue ), then there is going to be more of the same over the next couple of months. No one in their right mind would consider going back to the way things were up until now.
I can't understand why Impact can't come out with some facts. Tell them how much ATCOs earn, its public information anyway. Tell them the percentage of ATCOs who partake in overtime. Its ridiculous that Joe Public now thinks that everyone in ATC does overtime and is demanding extra money. If the point was put across that the improved call in system would only benefit about half the staff then maybe people might start to realise that this is about safety .... their safety!
One other thing that Impact could do ... give out the figures of how much overtime has increased in the last couple of years along with how the number of ATCOs has decreased plus how much the traffic has increased both in Dublin and the Shannon airspace. Print it!!!!! Please!! IMPACT, you have to do something to stop the Sunday newspapers having a field day about how greedy we are. Its ridiculous.
I can't understand why Impact can't come out with some facts. Tell them how much ATCOs earn, its public information anyway. Tell them the percentage of ATCOs who partake in overtime. Its ridiculous that Joe Public now thinks that everyone in ATC does overtime and is demanding extra money. If the point was put across that the improved call in system would only benefit about half the staff then maybe people might start to realise that this is about safety .... their safety!
One other thing that Impact could do ... give out the figures of how much overtime has increased in the last couple of years along with how the number of ATCOs has decreased plus how much the traffic has increased both in Dublin and the Shannon airspace. Print it!!!!! Please!! IMPACT, you have to do something to stop the Sunday newspapers having a field day about how greedy we are. Its ridiculous.
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[QUOTE]
Next week’s threatened strike by air traffic controllers will damage the economy and the country’s international reputation, Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey warned tonight.
Up to 900 airline flights will be grounded if the controllers go ahead with a planned 24-hour stoppage on Thursday.
Mr Dempsey also told the Dáil that the Government may have to enforce no-strike clauses for essential services if industrial action causes disruption on a national level.
“I believe very, very strongly that putting consumers through the kind of mental torment for the next week is not necessary and it shouldn’t happen.
“I believe the possible damage to the economy and to the reputation of this country is way out of proportion to the issues that need to be resolved.”
Tens of thousands of passengers will be affected by the dispute, which is set to cripple all services to, from, and over Ireland’s airspace.
Impact claims the row is over staff shortages but the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has insisted it relates to rosters and overtime.
Both sides will meet for crunch talks at the Labour Court on Monday.
In the Dáil, Fine Gael frontbench TD Fergus O’Dowd said planned strike action will also cost other transatlantic airlines who won’t be able to fly through Irish airspace.
He also called for a “no-strike” clause to be in place for essential service providers like air traffic controllers.
Mr Dempsey said the social partnership regime between the government and unions did not necessitate a no-strike clause.
But he added: “Quite clearly if people don’t abide by the regulations and don’t make full use of the industrial relations channels of the state and if staff threaten walk-outs, then I think it is time for the government to review the no-strike situation.”
Earlier, Mr Dempsey agreed controllers had a stressful job because they were responsible for the lives of thousands of people.
“You have a lot of lives in your hands at any one time,” he added.
On the planned strike, he continued: “This will have a huge impact on air services to and from Ireland.
“If it happens, it will do a huge amount of damage but the uncertainty for a week in advance will also cause huge anxiety for travellers.”[/
QUOTE]
Tell me Noel...what would cause you more anxiety?
1.The cancellation of your flight
2.A jetliner travelling at 550mph slapping off of you at 35,000 feet
cos if this situation is allowed to continue then No.2 is a possibility!!
Its amazing how he continously harps on the following
...when strike notice was only issued AFTER our third and as we knew at the time final apperance at the LRC..and its AN OFFICAL strike action so we have abided by the rules in issueing it...
Sure what can we expect from a party who would allow the appointment of the brother of the then minister for transport to be the chief exec of the IAA..
Next week’s threatened strike by air traffic controllers will damage the economy and the country’s international reputation, Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey warned tonight.
Up to 900 airline flights will be grounded if the controllers go ahead with a planned 24-hour stoppage on Thursday.
Mr Dempsey also told the Dáil that the Government may have to enforce no-strike clauses for essential services if industrial action causes disruption on a national level.
“I believe very, very strongly that putting consumers through the kind of mental torment for the next week is not necessary and it shouldn’t happen.
“I believe the possible damage to the economy and to the reputation of this country is way out of proportion to the issues that need to be resolved.”
Tens of thousands of passengers will be affected by the dispute, which is set to cripple all services to, from, and over Ireland’s airspace.
Impact claims the row is over staff shortages but the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has insisted it relates to rosters and overtime.
Both sides will meet for crunch talks at the Labour Court on Monday.
In the Dáil, Fine Gael frontbench TD Fergus O’Dowd said planned strike action will also cost other transatlantic airlines who won’t be able to fly through Irish airspace.
He also called for a “no-strike” clause to be in place for essential service providers like air traffic controllers.
Mr Dempsey said the social partnership regime between the government and unions did not necessitate a no-strike clause.
But he added: “Quite clearly if people don’t abide by the regulations and don’t make full use of the industrial relations channels of the state and if staff threaten walk-outs, then I think it is time for the government to review the no-strike situation.”
Earlier, Mr Dempsey agreed controllers had a stressful job because they were responsible for the lives of thousands of people.
“You have a lot of lives in your hands at any one time,” he added.
On the planned strike, he continued: “This will have a huge impact on air services to and from Ireland.
“If it happens, it will do a huge amount of damage but the uncertainty for a week in advance will also cause huge anxiety for travellers.”[/
QUOTE]
Tell me Noel...what would cause you more anxiety?
1.The cancellation of your flight
2.A jetliner travelling at 550mph slapping off of you at 35,000 feet
cos if this situation is allowed to continue then No.2 is a possibility!!
Its amazing how he continously harps on the following
if people don’t abide by the regulations and don’t make full use of the industrial relations channels of the state and if staff threaten walk-outs
Sure what can we expect from a party who would allow the appointment of the brother of the then minister for transport to be the chief exec of the IAA..
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Im pissed......
Unlike EIDW,EINN does not even have a current official sector capacity.The study for same has been promised for quite a while now but as yet has not been undertaken.SAFETY-SAFETY-SAFETY.
When the media get hold,and they will,of the real issues,not the bull being spouted by The IAA,then all hell will break loose.Remember all the lies and condascending remarks are coming from one source-The IAA.Other fools are jumping in on the bandwagon.Some trying to gain free publicity,other groups just making comment on an issue that they know absolutely nothing about.
Comrades,forget about them all.As I have said already,when the real issues are debated in public,the public wont take much convincing if any at all.
Our industry is screaming for an independent regulator to sort out the mess that is.We will ensure that the truth prevails.The gurus that are the IAA may percieve that they have the upper hand but alas for them they cant seem to look past the present.They continuously fail to do so and in so doing,forget to plan ahead.
The media will eventually expose them for what they really are.When the public eventually see the safety implications to the flying public,they wont be long realising that this war has not been about money but staffing levels.
Pilots hours are heavily regulated.Ours are not regulated in any way shape or form.Even the great MOL has to restrict the amount of time his flight crews spend in the air.However our esteemed leader,Mr Brennan is his name by the way,thinks it fit and in no way comprimises safety for us to work every god given hour.Well Mr Brennan,NO MORE.
What you and your management team have done and continue to do is a national disgrace.I presume that your absence in recent times is as a result of the contempt from which you would be held if you ever dared to show your face in public.SHAME ON YOU.You have turned a once well respected company into the laughing stock of ANSP's.Getting cosy with Ryanair was a big mistake.Neither the public nor your staff will ever forgive what you and your management team have done.
Finally,to our Union Reps,you have been dignified and have retained the respect of the membership during very trying times by acting in a proffessional,dignified manner,as all ATCO's do.
Good luck on Monday.
When the media get hold,and they will,of the real issues,not the bull being spouted by The IAA,then all hell will break loose.Remember all the lies and condascending remarks are coming from one source-The IAA.Other fools are jumping in on the bandwagon.Some trying to gain free publicity,other groups just making comment on an issue that they know absolutely nothing about.
Comrades,forget about them all.As I have said already,when the real issues are debated in public,the public wont take much convincing if any at all.
Our industry is screaming for an independent regulator to sort out the mess that is.We will ensure that the truth prevails.The gurus that are the IAA may percieve that they have the upper hand but alas for them they cant seem to look past the present.They continuously fail to do so and in so doing,forget to plan ahead.
The media will eventually expose them for what they really are.When the public eventually see the safety implications to the flying public,they wont be long realising that this war has not been about money but staffing levels.
Pilots hours are heavily regulated.Ours are not regulated in any way shape or form.Even the great MOL has to restrict the amount of time his flight crews spend in the air.However our esteemed leader,Mr Brennan is his name by the way,thinks it fit and in no way comprimises safety for us to work every god given hour.Well Mr Brennan,NO MORE.
What you and your management team have done and continue to do is a national disgrace.I presume that your absence in recent times is as a result of the contempt from which you would be held if you ever dared to show your face in public.SHAME ON YOU.You have turned a once well respected company into the laughing stock of ANSP's.Getting cosy with Ryanair was a big mistake.Neither the public nor your staff will ever forgive what you and your management team have done.
Finally,to our Union Reps,you have been dignified and have retained the respect of the membership during very trying times by acting in a proffessional,dignified manner,as all ATCO's do.
Good luck on Monday.
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Finally,to our Union Reps,you have been dignified and have retained the respect of the membership during very trying times by acting in a proffessional,dignified manner,as all ATCO's do.
Good luck on Monday
Good luck on Monday
Like you say when the press get a hold of the facts the
will hit the fan...a whole summer of us not doing overtime and actions will lead to chaos...To quote Wiston Churchill
This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
Stay strong lads/ladies
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Good luck lads and lassies,
A few weeks with everyone in the Emerald Isle only working their rostered shifts would appear to me to be able to very quickly demonstrate to the IAA whether there is a staff shortage or not. Where you couldn't man up or provide the cover agreed with the IAA, you regulate the traffic. And watch massive delays accumulate which will be solely attributable to the IAA. And this is in winter traffic.
Controllers would be complying precisely with their rostered attendances, they'd be exercising the 'voluntary' part of their contract (i.e. we're not coming in on our rest days), so demonstrating their professionalism and desire for a non fatigued safe workforce. You can't call that 'industrial action'.
The IAA, O'Leary, and the rest of the Goons such as the press, could then jump up and down and rant to their hearts content, but who gives a flying **** ... you'd be beyond reproach.
Then when it dies down, sue the feckers for libel in regard to their lies and indignations !!
Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat! Ádh mór ort!
A few weeks with everyone in the Emerald Isle only working their rostered shifts would appear to me to be able to very quickly demonstrate to the IAA whether there is a staff shortage or not. Where you couldn't man up or provide the cover agreed with the IAA, you regulate the traffic. And watch massive delays accumulate which will be solely attributable to the IAA. And this is in winter traffic.
Controllers would be complying precisely with their rostered attendances, they'd be exercising the 'voluntary' part of their contract (i.e. we're not coming in on our rest days), so demonstrating their professionalism and desire for a non fatigued safe workforce. You can't call that 'industrial action'.
The IAA, O'Leary, and the rest of the Goons such as the press, could then jump up and down and rant to their hearts content, but who gives a flying **** ... you'd be beyond reproach.
Then when it dies down, sue the feckers for libel in regard to their lies and indignations !!
Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat! Ádh mór ort!
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atc overtime ban
As a first time entrant to this thread bear with me . I wish to state the following.
(A) i AM AN ATCO EXPERT ON MY MAX SALARY . I do not earn anything like what mol and ibec are saying.
(b) We as controllers have worked hard , accepted massive changes in work practices etc and got on with the job . We were sold a pup with the Kilkenny agreement but we will not be caught again.
(c) I do not like all my colleagues want to disrupt the travelling public but we are left with no choice.
(d) As controllers i have never seen us so united , so determined and so as one on an issue (management have succeeded in bonding us better than we ever did in as long as i remember ) We must build on this unity and never again let the dub/ sha/ crk bickering divide us again.
(e) We must stay strong on this issue. We have taken terrible flak in the media this week and next week will be worse . The strong among us must support those who may waver in the face of this pressure.
(f) Stay strong , stay united and remember this will be resolved . They have to talk to us . Afterall we are the only show in town.
Lastly do not bend to pressure from well meaning but weak station managers. If we lose this battle management will walk all over us forever.
(A) i AM AN ATCO EXPERT ON MY MAX SALARY . I do not earn anything like what mol and ibec are saying.
(b) We as controllers have worked hard , accepted massive changes in work practices etc and got on with the job . We were sold a pup with the Kilkenny agreement but we will not be caught again.
(c) I do not like all my colleagues want to disrupt the travelling public but we are left with no choice.
(d) As controllers i have never seen us so united , so determined and so as one on an issue (management have succeeded in bonding us better than we ever did in as long as i remember ) We must build on this unity and never again let the dub/ sha/ crk bickering divide us again.
(e) We must stay strong on this issue. We have taken terrible flak in the media this week and next week will be worse . The strong among us must support those who may waver in the face of this pressure.
(f) Stay strong , stay united and remember this will be resolved . They have to talk to us . Afterall we are the only show in town.
Lastly do not bend to pressure from well meaning but weak station managers. If we lose this battle management will walk all over us forever.
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Dee Mac,
1. Plug in headset and flick switch to side of plug you used (on the front edge of the desk)
2. Select appropriate frequency selector for the sector or sectors that you are doing.Selectors found left or right of radar.
3. Press foot switch or use switch on desk - back to key transmitter or forward for intercom to others with the same frequency selected on their panel
If 1 to 3 fail stand up and lift the red telephine type handset. Select the frequency you use and then use the tx switch on the red handset to transmitt - Tells will be with you in moments because they are awoken when you pick up the red standby system.
If everything fails........walk via the desk to have a quick check on D+D and through the door to tells........you can eat their bickies while they fix the problem.
Well you did ask!
Want the procedure for the CDO position in the ocean?, Dublin or Swanwick or MACC..........some where else?
Never mind I think you get the idea
The UK CAA are very interested in safety issues relating to the Shanwick FIR. If fatigued Irtish ATCOs providing a service in that airspace do not want to write to the UK CAA ( they say the IAA ignore reports) then there is always CHIRP
Here is the link for fatigued ATCO's who want to make a report http://www.chirp.co.uk/main/Aviation.htm
---------
Back to the debate.
The editorial in the indo today says it all.
Far too many self-important people have let money for continued overtime etc etc cloud the reality which is that with a in depth rationalisation of the current staffing and recruitment of direct entry controllers plus trainees to replace the leavers the goal should be no overtime.
Claiming that having to do overtime is a safety issue and not saying that since it is a safety issue it will stop has been one of the best cases of revolver - foot - aim - fire.
Regards,
DFC
Can you now please tell me how to work the radio thingy?
2. Select appropriate frequency selector for the sector or sectors that you are doing.Selectors found left or right of radar.
3. Press foot switch or use switch on desk - back to key transmitter or forward for intercom to others with the same frequency selected on their panel
If 1 to 3 fail stand up and lift the red telephine type handset. Select the frequency you use and then use the tx switch on the red handset to transmitt - Tells will be with you in moments because they are awoken when you pick up the red standby system.
If everything fails........walk via the desk to have a quick check on D+D and through the door to tells........you can eat their bickies while they fix the problem.
Well you did ask!
Want the procedure for the CDO position in the ocean?, Dublin or Swanwick or MACC..........some where else?
Never mind I think you get the idea
The UK CAA are very interested in safety issues relating to the Shanwick FIR. If fatigued Irtish ATCOs providing a service in that airspace do not want to write to the UK CAA ( they say the IAA ignore reports) then there is always CHIRP
Here is the link for fatigued ATCO's who want to make a report http://www.chirp.co.uk/main/Aviation.htm
---------
Back to the debate.
The editorial in the indo today says it all.
Far too many self-important people have let money for continued overtime etc etc cloud the reality which is that with a in depth rationalisation of the current staffing and recruitment of direct entry controllers plus trainees to replace the leavers the goal should be no overtime.
Claiming that having to do overtime is a safety issue and not saying that since it is a safety issue it will stop has been one of the best cases of revolver - foot - aim - fire.
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC; 22nd Feb 2008 at 20:41.
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If half of what has been written here is true, it beggars belief ! How ever much I might bitch and moan, the IAA (Ireland Against Aviation) make my employer look like heaven on earth. Sector TMVs not only defined but monitored, manning levels defined with annual leave entitlement factored in, safety concerns listened to and followed up etc. etc.
My fear is that, despite having a very just cause to back you up, you still may lose the battle when confronted by Irish politics and cronyism. I hope not.
Stay united ... the one positive aspect of this fiasco so far ...... and good luck!
Edited to say....
DFC,
Our posts crossed. Overtime cannont be eliminated totally. You cannot do manpower plannig to the point where every eventuality is covered. When you rely on it as a matter of course rather than to deal with force majeur ....... you have a real problem. Then again, that's been said often enough already on this thread.
My fear is that, despite having a very just cause to back you up, you still may lose the battle when confronted by Irish politics and cronyism. I hope not.
Stay united ... the one positive aspect of this fiasco so far ...... and good luck!
Edited to say....
DFC,
Our posts crossed. Overtime cannont be eliminated totally. You cannot do manpower plannig to the point where every eventuality is covered. When you rely on it as a matter of course rather than to deal with force majeur ....... you have a real problem. Then again, that's been said often enough already on this thread.
Last edited by Radar; 22nd Feb 2008 at 21:05.
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Thank you all for your support
A BIG THANK YOU to all our friends , controllers and pilots alike, including RIAAnair pilots, who have supported us throughout this current dispute. a big TANGO YANKEE, if you weren't happy with the level you got today.... well thats just TANGO SIERRA.. BIg Thanks to the shamrock lads and yer man from Roundwood . Look forward to returning the compliment. Thanks to PPruneRadar and co. for all your tips and advice and for allowing us to use this global stage to air our views. i hope that this forum will be the the launchpad for the GLOBAL recruitment of Air Traffic Controllers.
To my fellow controllers in the iaa . It's time to
PUT EM UNDER PRESSURE
Go raibh mile maith agaibh go leir
ta suil agam nach bhfuil turas deas againn! Bi Ullamh
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PT65I2ny8
To my fellow controllers in the iaa . It's time to
PUT EM UNDER PRESSURE
Go raibh mile maith agaibh go leir
ta suil agam nach bhfuil turas deas againn! Bi Ullamh
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PT65I2ny8
Last edited by COMICALIAM; 22nd Feb 2008 at 23:17. Reason: got a pheckin d in pass irish
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Impact should take out a full page ad in some of the Irish Sunday newspapers and put the message across in a clear fashion.
This whole situation right back to the treatment of the SCP6 students would make a great "Primetime" programme.
Get the story out there.
This whole situation right back to the treatment of the SCP6 students would make a great "Primetime" programme.
Get the story out there.