Zurich UAC transfer to Geneva UAC postponed.
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Zurich UAC transfer to Geneva UAC postponed.
The planned transfer of control of Zurich upper airspace to Geneva UAC has been postponed due to regulatory clearance being witheld.
This was supposed to occur tonight and has now been postponed until at least the 28th March.
Unfortunately all the controllers who are supposed to work the Zurich airspace are currently in Geneva having been transferred there in preparation for the move. They will now have to return to Zurich as rapidly as possible to man the sectors tomorrow (Thursday 16th March).
This means that there will be capacity reductions of 30% in Zurich upper sectors and 20% in the lower sectors until a solution can be found to the whole mess.
There could be fairly serious delays in that whole region until capacities are increased.
I'm amazed how something like this can happen! Anyone from CH care to add anything?
This was supposed to occur tonight and has now been postponed until at least the 28th March.
Unfortunately all the controllers who are supposed to work the Zurich airspace are currently in Geneva having been transferred there in preparation for the move. They will now have to return to Zurich as rapidly as possible to man the sectors tomorrow (Thursday 16th March).
This means that there will be capacity reductions of 30% in Zurich upper sectors and 20% in the lower sectors until a solution can be found to the whole mess.
There could be fairly serious delays in that whole region until capacities are increased.
I'm amazed how something like this can happen! Anyone from CH care to add anything?
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It's just 'situation normal' at the most expensive, incompetent, arrogant air traffic control organisation with the world's worst safety record, namely Skyguide.
They now operate from a massive palace on Dubendorf airfield - that might give a hint as to the cause of the problem: the Swiss have uniquely decided to coordinate civil and military control in one organisation in a cynical attempt to protect the Skyguide dinosaur from the more logical solution, which would be to hand over Swiss airspace to an enlarged Maastricht/Frankfurt/Milan/Marseille.
They now operate from a massive palace on Dubendorf airfield - that might give a hint as to the cause of the problem: the Swiss have uniquely decided to coordinate civil and military control in one organisation in a cynical attempt to protect the Skyguide dinosaur from the more logical solution, which would be to hand over Swiss airspace to an enlarged Maastricht/Frankfurt/Milan/Marseille.
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And again aeropers talks about something he doesn't have a clue. Is this symptomatic? Just beacause you drive a plane doesn't mean you know about ATC!
BTW: Form the outside would be a far more logical solution to move Swiss's operation to Lufthansa. Would you want that?
BTW: Form the outside would be a far more logical solution to move Swiss's operation to Lufthansa. Would you want that?
Hi Flowman,
just had a look at the ANM, not a pretty sight indeed. I rekon you have the 20/30% reductions from your internal channels? If so, ugly doesn't come close.
As it's a mere 3 hour drive/3:30 train trip airport to airport and the decision seems to have been taken somewhere early this afternoon, that positioning should be not too much of a problem... Made the trip many times myself, even commuting many moons ago, it's teidious but feasible. Some hotels are gonna have a lot of extra business tough.
Seems to have come as a total surprise 
to all involved. No details knows so far at this end other than the go ahead for the move by the Swiss authorities has not been granted as expected. What the reason for this is is unknown so far but they better be good. Clearly, the pieces of this need to be picked up and put in order before things will get back to normal.
After the events which have shaken this country's civil aviation since 2001, it appears to me that many things are proceeding with much more caution than in the old days. This can be a good thing if there is a viable reason behind it, but it can also be fairly paralyzing at times. The one thing I would like to know at this stage is why the go/no go decision had to be left this late?
Best, AN2 Driver
@aeropers
Your track record is amazing. 3 posts and 3 total and utter rants without anything contributing to the thread.... you must be really really frustrated, or what is your agenda here?
Well, I've got news for you. Many people are frustrated here over the developments of the last years, but most of us are trying to cope to the best of our possibilities and abilities. Yet I am pretty darn sure that a lot of the current situation (in the post 2001 Swiss Aviation in general, not particularly this incident) has to do with the always present negativism that is plaguing this country and it's aviation environment since ever I can think back. Amongst other things it cost us both national carriers. If you want to make an example of this attitude, you are doing a good job. Reading your posts, at least nobody needs to wonder anymore how that happened
.
I've asked you before, after post no2, if the organisation you chose as your forum nic is aware and condoning what you are
out here? Knowing quite a few of it's members I rather doubt it. In fact, I wonder if you are trying to make it look as if... but then again, who knows... 
just had a look at the ANM, not a pretty sight indeed. I rekon you have the 20/30% reductions from your internal channels? If so, ugly doesn't come close.
Originally Posted by flowman
Unfortunately all the controllers who are supposed to work the Zurich airspace are currently in Geneva having been transferred there in preparation for the move. They will now have to return to Zurich as rapidly as possible to man the sectors tomorrow (Thursday 16th March).
I'm amazed how something like this can happen! Anyone from CH care to add anything?
to all involved. No details knows so far at this end other than the go ahead for the move by the Swiss authorities has not been granted as expected. What the reason for this is is unknown so far but they better be good. Clearly, the pieces of this need to be picked up and put in order before things will get back to normal. After the events which have shaken this country's civil aviation since 2001, it appears to me that many things are proceeding with much more caution than in the old days. This can be a good thing if there is a viable reason behind it, but it can also be fairly paralyzing at times. The one thing I would like to know at this stage is why the go/no go decision had to be left this late?
Best, AN2 Driver
@aeropers
Your track record is amazing. 3 posts and 3 total and utter rants without anything contributing to the thread.... you must be really really frustrated, or what is your agenda here?
Well, I've got news for you. Many people are frustrated here over the developments of the last years, but most of us are trying to cope to the best of our possibilities and abilities. Yet I am pretty darn sure that a lot of the current situation (in the post 2001 Swiss Aviation in general, not particularly this incident) has to do with the always present negativism that is plaguing this country and it's aviation environment since ever I can think back. Amongst other things it cost us both national carriers. If you want to make an example of this attitude, you are doing a good job. Reading your posts, at least nobody needs to wonder anymore how that happened
. I've asked you before, after post no2, if the organisation you chose as your forum nic is aware and condoning what you are
out here? Knowing quite a few of it's members I rather doubt it. In fact, I wonder if you are trying to make it look as if... but then again, who knows...
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Thanks for that AN2 driver.
I did not realise it was as close as three hours by car. Still a hell of a commute though!
The hotel bill will be massive.
Here's hoping they sort out the manning problem quickly.
Problem is Maastricht have also reduced their capacities because of new route structures in Germany, that means the offload routes will also be producing delays. I have a feeling tomorrow will not be much fun
I did not realise it was as close as three hours by car. Still a hell of a commute though!
The hotel bill will be massive.
Here's hoping they sort out the manning problem quickly.
Problem is Maastricht have also reduced their capacities because of new route structures in Germany, that means the offload routes will also be producing delays. I have a feeling tomorrow will not be much fun
Originally Posted by flowman
Thanks for that AN2 driver.
I did not realise it was as close as three hours by car. Still a hell of a commute though!
The hotel bill will be massive.
Here's hoping they sort out the manning problem quickly.
Problem is Maastricht have also reduced their capacities because of new route structures in Germany, that means the offload routes will also be producing delays. I have a feeling tomorrow will not be much fun
I did not realise it was as close as three hours by car. Still a hell of a commute though!
The hotel bill will be massive.
Here's hoping they sort out the manning problem quickly.
Problem is Maastricht have also reduced their capacities because of new route structures in Germany, that means the offload routes will also be producing delays. I have a feeling tomorrow will not be much fun
what I have heard in the grapevine here is that the ANM note seems more of a precautionary nature given that many people need to take a deep breath and go "right, well, ok, now then...." back to what everyone has been used to for the rememberable past. The airports themselves do not seem overly concerned, neither are ops people of some operators I milked for information
. Of course, the combination with the Maastricht restriction might not be helpful. It's been a time since I have been at the consumer end of CFMU but I do recall contact with you guys always as a very helpful and positive experience. I am sure you guys will do your best as you always do. Sadly I never got the chance to visit you guys while I still had the possibility...
Best regards
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As a user (or shall I use the word "customer") of the Swiss ATC services, I gotta say that I'm not overly impressed.
Compared to what we see around the world, the worst; well most of Africa, most of the Far East. Closer to dear ol'Europe, the messy friendliness of the Italian, the favoritism of Spain, etc.
Now the best; IMHO, in Britain, seconded by Germany, the Netherlands and some of their American counterparts.
Skyguide? Well, without resorting to the wording as used by "aeropest", they have to end up in between or in the first group: Ridiculous spacings, rigid as can be, uncoordinated efforts, high costs (no wonder, plenty vacation, plenty wages, cosy retirement at 55), inefficient, and last but not least, the "we are the best" attitude that was so dear to Swissair and remains present within most of LH South
To sum it up, a real dinosaur...
On the other hand, who are we pilots to judge? Just trained monkeys, pushing some knobs, responding to some predefined situation, reading checklists... Vastly overpaid and underworked, served coffee and sweets by some of the most attractive females... We sure can't have a clue as how enduring and challenging ATC work is...
We are just left do the same as you gals and guys: ADMIRE
P.S.
This little devil is sooo cute!
Compared to what we see around the world, the worst; well most of Africa, most of the Far East. Closer to dear ol'Europe, the messy friendliness of the Italian, the favoritism of Spain, etc.
Now the best; IMHO, in Britain, seconded by Germany, the Netherlands and some of their American counterparts.
Skyguide? Well, without resorting to the wording as used by "aeropest", they have to end up in between or in the first group: Ridiculous spacings, rigid as can be, uncoordinated efforts, high costs (no wonder, plenty vacation, plenty wages, cosy retirement at 55), inefficient, and last but not least, the "we are the best" attitude that was so dear to Swissair and remains present within most of LH South
To sum it up, a real dinosaur...
On the other hand, who are we pilots to judge? Just trained monkeys, pushing some knobs, responding to some predefined situation, reading checklists... Vastly overpaid and underworked, served coffee and sweets by some of the most attractive females... We sure can't have a clue as how enduring and challenging ATC work is...
We are just left do the same as you gals and guys: ADMIRE
P.S.
This little devil is sooo cute!
Originally Posted by F4F
Skyguide? Well, without resorting to the wording as used by "aeropest", they have to end up in between or in the first group: Ridiculous spacings, rigid as can be, uncoordinated efforts, high costs (no wonder, plenty vacation, plenty wages, cosy retirement at 55), inefficient, and last but not least, the "we are the best" attitude that was so dear to Swissair and remains present within most of LH South
To sum it up, a real dinosaur...
To sum it up, a real dinosaur...
I won't say that there is all very much ok with them, there is a lot which could do with improvement, but working in such a politically infested environment must have some perks which may well result in an outside picture that does not entirely coincide with what people could be doing or would be doing given the chance.
Best regards
AN2 driver.
More than just an ATCO
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The reason for the changes at the same time, Switzerland, Germany Netherlands, UK, etc., is that it is an AIRAC date
Looks like being an interesting day.
Looks like being an interesting day.
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Aeropers
On your first post I thought you were genuine. Now I know that your genuine… a genuine numb nut! Nothing but a little frustrated troll that couldn’t cut in this business. Go fly a kite!
So much for that.
Et-al
As for the subject at hand, if the regulator says you aint going, you just aint going! Regardless if you call your self Skyguide, DFS, AENA or whatever. The safety record is of no interest in this case. Yes, the Swiss airspace has gotten a bit more rigid since the accident, but I can somewhat understand that. I wonder how rigid and ridiculous DFS will see the German airspace after a similar accident.. god forbid! And while on the subject, its not like German controllers have any worse conditions.
Skyguide had everything ready to go for the transition of the UAC. The regulator pulled the breaks in the last minute. I fail to see how this is a Skyguide generated problem.
On your first post I thought you were genuine. Now I know that your genuine… a genuine numb nut! Nothing but a little frustrated troll that couldn’t cut in this business. Go fly a kite!
So much for that.
Et-al
As for the subject at hand, if the regulator says you aint going, you just aint going! Regardless if you call your self Skyguide, DFS, AENA or whatever. The safety record is of no interest in this case. Yes, the Swiss airspace has gotten a bit more rigid since the accident, but I can somewhat understand that. I wonder how rigid and ridiculous DFS will see the German airspace after a similar accident.. god forbid! And while on the subject, its not like German controllers have any worse conditions.
Skyguide had everything ready to go for the transition of the UAC. The regulator pulled the breaks in the last minute. I fail to see how this is a Skyguide generated problem.
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N380UA
Yes, the regulator put the brakes on the whole move, but I fail to see how you can say that it is nothing to do with Skyguide. Surely the regulator is there to assess whether what Skyguide has put in place is acceptable and safe. If his findings are that it is not prudent to proceed then that shows poor preparation by Skyguide.
The regulator must have been involved well before now and his requirements must have been known before last night. It would bevery poor project management if he was not.
If you fail your medical do you blame the doctor?
Yes, the regulator put the brakes on the whole move, but I fail to see how you can say that it is nothing to do with Skyguide. Surely the regulator is there to assess whether what Skyguide has put in place is acceptable and safe. If his findings are that it is not prudent to proceed then that shows poor preparation by Skyguide.
The regulator must have been involved well before now and his requirements must have been known before last night. It would bevery poor project management if he was not.
If you fail your medical do you blame the doctor?
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Rumour has it that the staff at the FOCA were unable to peruse the flood of documents submitted by skyguide in time for the launch of the UAC. They require a further 10-12 office days to do so.
Further rumours abound that the seemingly strong anti-UAC lobby has had their lawyers petition the FOCA to put the brakes on this project. For safety reasons.....
Further rumours abound that the seemingly strong anti-UAC lobby has had their lawyers petition the FOCA to put the brakes on this project. For safety reasons.....
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Zurich capacities have just been put back to normal.
So well done to the controllers who have come up with the goods despite what must have been a hectic 24 hours.
So well done to the controllers who have come up with the goods despite what must have been a hectic 24 hours.
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flowman
my understanding is that Skyguide was on top of it but the regulator was dragging his feet. Which, if you ever had anything to do with the Swiss CAA, is not surprising really. So I'd side with ZRH on this one.
my understanding is that Skyguide was on top of it but the regulator was dragging his feet. Which, if you ever had anything to do with the Swiss CAA, is not surprising really. So I'd side with ZRH on this one.
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Half and half guys. As of my information FOCA (CAA) wanted a smooth run of the new computer system for at least 15 days (please correct me as this period might not be right). Skyguide did not acheive this so the change had to be stopped. But I must say that this information is about two weeks old. so it might well be obsolete.
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Does this mean that once this transfer is complete, we won´t get these ridiculous frequency changes every 2000 feet/2 minutes whilst descending towards GVA?
Swiss efficiency my @ss!
Swiss efficiency my @ss!
Switzerland and "aeropers"
Sir,
Thanks for the "calm" explanation.
Re your:
QUOTE: @aeropers
Your track record is amazing. 3 posts and 3 total and utter rants without anything contributing to the thread.... you must be really really frustrated, or what is your agenda here?
Well, I've got news for you. Many people are frustrated here over the developments of the last years, but most of us are trying to cope to the best of our possibilities and abilities. Yet I am pretty darn sure that a lot of the current situation (in the post 2001 Swiss Aviation in general, not particularly this incident) has to do with the always present negativism that is plaguing this country and it's aviation environment since ever I can think back. Amongst other things it cost us both national carriers. If you want to make an example of this attitude, you are doing a good job. Reading your posts, at least nobody needs to wonder anymore how that happened .
I've asked you before, after post no2, if the organisation you chose as your forum nic is aware and condoning what you are out here? Knowing quite a few of it's members I rather doubt it. In fact, I wonder if you are trying to make it look as if... but then again, who knows...
UNQUOTE:
As one of many people both personally and professionally affected by many of the "happenings" here in CH since 2001 I could not agree more with your comments.
What I find particularly disturbing is the fact that this person "aeropers" is, as you have pointed out, using the name of an official organisation in Switzerland. This could have potentially bad consequences for aviation in Switzerland (as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation).
I certainly do not object to anyone posting what I regard as "bunkum" here, but wonder if in a special case like this the Moderator/s cannot do something to change this idiot's nic.
Krgds
AES
Thanks for the "calm" explanation.
Re your:
QUOTE: @aeropers
Your track record is amazing. 3 posts and 3 total and utter rants without anything contributing to the thread.... you must be really really frustrated, or what is your agenda here?
Well, I've got news for you. Many people are frustrated here over the developments of the last years, but most of us are trying to cope to the best of our possibilities and abilities. Yet I am pretty darn sure that a lot of the current situation (in the post 2001 Swiss Aviation in general, not particularly this incident) has to do with the always present negativism that is plaguing this country and it's aviation environment since ever I can think back. Amongst other things it cost us both national carriers. If you want to make an example of this attitude, you are doing a good job. Reading your posts, at least nobody needs to wonder anymore how that happened
. I've asked you before, after post no2, if the organisation you chose as your forum nic is aware and condoning what you are
out here? Knowing quite a few of it's members I rather doubt it. In fact, I wonder if you are trying to make it look as if... but then again, who knows... UNQUOTE:
As one of many people both personally and professionally affected by many of the "happenings" here in CH since 2001 I could not agree more with your comments.
What I find particularly disturbing is the fact that this person "aeropers" is, as you have pointed out, using the name of an official organisation in Switzerland. This could have potentially bad consequences for aviation in Switzerland (as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation).
I certainly do not object to anyone posting what I regard as "bunkum" here, but wonder if in a special case like this the Moderator/s cannot do something to change this idiot's nic.
Krgds
AES
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Originally Posted by AES
as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation
Originally Posted by AES
Sir,
Thanks for the "calm" explanation.
As one of many people both personally and professionally affected by many of the "happenings" here in CH since 2001 I could not agree more with your comments.
Thanks for the "calm" explanation.
As one of many people both personally and professionally affected by many of the "happenings" here in CH since 2001 I could not agree more with your comments.
What I find particularly disturbing is the fact that this person "aeropers" is, as you have pointed out, using the name of an official organisation in Switzerland. This could have potentially bad consequences for aviation in Switzerland (as just 1 example, if a jounalist got hold of his posts and "thought" they represented the official line of this organisation).
I certainly do not object to anyone posting what I regard as "bunkum" here, but wonder if in a special case like this the Moderator/s cannot do something to change this idiot's nic.
Krgds
AES
I certainly do not object to anyone posting what I regard as "bunkum" here, but wonder if in a special case like this the Moderator/s cannot do something to change this idiot's nic.
Krgds
AES
Nevertheless, I have a feeling that the organisation the guy uses as his nic would have to be the ones getting active to put this character into his place.
Best regards
An2 Driver
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Does this mean that once this transfer is complete, we won´t get these ridiculous frequency changes every 2000 feet/2 minutes whilst descending towards GVA?
To answer your question: Yes, with the amount of electronic coordination between the sectors that will be using the new equipment, frequency changes should be reduced considerably.