"Where's our traffic"
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 111
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From: Up, up and away
West Coast
Just as controllers should be required to sit in the sim and run a practice QRH on an electrical fire to get an idea of what we are up against
On the other hand, pilots have ALWAYS been welcome to visit us, and we're constantly reminding you all on here. But when was the last time I saw an ATPL holder visit the centre? Never, that's when.
PS We get 15 hours flying training (used to be more) and many hours of lectures (and part of several exams) on aircraft characteristics, physics of flight etc. How much does a CPL holder have to learn about ATC?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
Likes: 6
From: southampton,hampshire,england
"where's the traffic?"
Given that the aircraft commander is ultimately responsible for the safety of his aircraft and passengers, I don't find the request at all offensive. Its all too easy to think of ATC as a real-life video game....there are real people on the other end of the radio!
With sectorisation and procedures in use to-day it is quite likely that some of the conflicting traffic may be on a different freq, and it is not always possible for the pilot to be situation-aware from R/T traffic.....and more so when he/she has just checked in.
With sectorisation and procedures in use to-day it is quite likely that some of the conflicting traffic may be on a different freq, and it is not always possible for the pilot to be situation-aware from R/T traffic.....and more so when he/she has just checked in.
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,925
Likes: 614
From: surfing, watching for sharks
"PS We get 15 hours flying training (used to be more) and many hours of lectures (and part of several exams) on aircraft characteristics, physics of flight etc. How much does a CPL holder have to learn about ATC?"
ATC is in the service industry, here to provide a product to pilots not the other way around. That said, pilots don't know as much about the ATC system as we could. However the nature of the relationship requires you know more about my needs than me of yours.
ATC is in the service industry, here to provide a product to pilots not the other way around. That said, pilots don't know as much about the ATC system as we could. However the nature of the relationship requires you know more about my needs than me of yours.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,155
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
West Coast;
Actually we are more a Safety Industry ie fire service etc... We are here to move aircraft first of all safely and then expeditiously. All the other stuff has always been on a as time permits basis. Our job is to safely move aircraft from point a to b, but we are not here to answer to every whim as many feel. Do we try to do what we can when we can? Certainly we do, that is what we all try to do, but if things are a bit busy for us, we will load shed all the nice stuff that many pilots expect or sometimes even demand.
regards
Scott
Actually we are more a Safety Industry ie fire service etc... We are here to move aircraft first of all safely and then expeditiously. All the other stuff has always been on a as time permits basis. Our job is to safely move aircraft from point a to b, but we are not here to answer to every whim as many feel. Do we try to do what we can when we can? Certainly we do, that is what we all try to do, but if things are a bit busy for us, we will load shed all the nice stuff that many pilots expect or sometimes even demand.
regards
Scott
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,925
Likes: 614
From: surfing, watching for sharks
After thinking about it, your correct, more in common with the field of safety. Still providing a service however. I have no heartburn with not approving direct or answering all the ride requests, etc.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 191
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From: next door to the pub
Whilst the Septics are here......
Why is there sooo many ride reports/requests here.....especially from Minibus pilots?
I have noticed that US pilots (Most not all) in Canada seem a bit behind the drag curve when it comes to the RT. Surely when they fly around places like ORD they have to be alert and responsive? My instructors insist I only give American pilots one instruction at once or they won't get it, this has been proved by experience.
We had a similar problem with Emirates pilots in Dubai, relaxing a little too much because "ahh its only Dubai, it's not that busy". Speaking of Dubai, I know a simulator swap was arranged and it went down real well with the few who were involved but sadly it fell by the wayside due to lack of staff.
Rgds FT
PS. This ain't Yank bashing before anyone starts.......I'm marrying one!!
Why is there sooo many ride reports/requests here.....especially from Minibus pilots?
I have noticed that US pilots (Most not all) in Canada seem a bit behind the drag curve when it comes to the RT. Surely when they fly around places like ORD they have to be alert and responsive? My instructors insist I only give American pilots one instruction at once or they won't get it, this has been proved by experience.
We had a similar problem with Emirates pilots in Dubai, relaxing a little too much because "ahh its only Dubai, it's not that busy". Speaking of Dubai, I know a simulator swap was arranged and it went down real well with the few who were involved but sadly it fell by the wayside due to lack of staff.
Rgds FT
PS. This ain't Yank bashing before anyone starts.......I'm marrying one!!
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 516
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From: UAE
Over here in the sandpit, we seem to have this problem mainly in the enroute phase of flight.
Usually when someone doesn't get the level of their choice.
And no, to all you pilots out there, we haven't chopped you off at a level for controller amusement.
When it's busy asking who is the traffic stopping me getting the level of my choice, what is his destination, can I speed up or slow down etc etc isn't going to help the situation.
I understand that you all would like to get your planned levels, but when several aircraft from the same company depart with minimum runway spacing, going into procedural airspace, I'm here to tell you, you will NOT get the same level!
So either give a bit of thought to your departure times, or liase amongst yourselves to decide who wants what, BEFORE you enter our patch. (lets not forget there are other users apart from yourselves).
Muscat is between the rock and the hard place. UAE at one end, Tehran, Karachi and Bombay at the other.
As someone said previously, the conflicting traffic in some cases is not within a bulls roar of where you are now....he will be in 40 minutes though.
Right, off to work!
Usually when someone doesn't get the level of their choice.
And no, to all you pilots out there, we haven't chopped you off at a level for controller amusement.
When it's busy asking who is the traffic stopping me getting the level of my choice, what is his destination, can I speed up or slow down etc etc isn't going to help the situation.
I understand that you all would like to get your planned levels, but when several aircraft from the same company depart with minimum runway spacing, going into procedural airspace, I'm here to tell you, you will NOT get the same level!
So either give a bit of thought to your departure times, or liase amongst yourselves to decide who wants what, BEFORE you enter our patch. (lets not forget there are other users apart from yourselves).
Muscat is between the rock and the hard place. UAE at one end, Tehran, Karachi and Bombay at the other.
As someone said previously, the conflicting traffic in some cases is not within a bulls roar of where you are now....he will be in 40 minutes though.
Right, off to work!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 19
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From: Somewhere out there...
However the nature of the relationship requires you know more about my needs than me of yours.
But when was the last time I saw an ATPL holder visit the centre? Never, that's when.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 671
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From: UAE
Where`s your traffic?
He`s just taxying past stand 5 to fit into the 8 mile gap I`ve just made which you seem determined to close by not complying with the speed control I gave you 12miles ago so welcome to the world of extra track miles!
He`s just taxying past stand 5 to fit into the 8 mile gap I`ve just made which you seem determined to close by not complying with the speed control I gave you 12miles ago so welcome to the world of extra track miles!
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
However the nature of the relationship requires you know more about my needs than me of yours.
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,925
Likes: 614
From: surfing, watching for sharks
Jerricho
No offense taken. I agree with your statement, but your still here to provide a service to the pilot are you not? If I was up because you were down there, I would have a general knowledge of your needs, limitations, etc. BTW, I have been up there because your down there. Doing practice ground controlled approaches for student training. I asked what they wanted, needed, expected and didn't want of me of me before I launched every time.
Fly through
Your phraseology is different than what I'm used to hearing. Not much, but enough that sometimes I digest it slower than what I'm used to hearing rapid fire in the states. If I do need it twice, so be it. I would rather clarify it than assume and dick it up. What's up with having to end all transmissions up there?
No offense taken. I agree with your statement, but your still here to provide a service to the pilot are you not? If I was up because you were down there, I would have a general knowledge of your needs, limitations, etc. BTW, I have been up there because your down there. Doing practice ground controlled approaches for student training. I asked what they wanted, needed, expected and didn't want of me of me before I launched every time.
Fly through
Your phraseology is different than what I'm used to hearing. Not much, but enough that sometimes I digest it slower than what I'm used to hearing rapid fire in the states. If I do need it twice, so be it. I would rather clarify it than assume and dick it up. What's up with having to end all transmissions up there?
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 144
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From: the real deal
If I was up because you were down there......I have been up there because your down there
Hey it's interesting how CUR takes a characteristic shot at pilots then, despite the thread actually turning into a productive exchange (or maybe because of it) she doesn't return to take part in the discussion.
When I was in the RAAF, the studs gradually picked up from the instructors a disdain for ATC, mainly civvy, which our instructors had picked up, themselves in turn, when students years before. It wasn't actively encouraged but it sure wasn't discouraged.
We didn't know why, we just noticed it, and being young, impressionable and pilots, not to mention cool and good-looking, we thought it was funny and carried it on.
Dunno what it's like these days in the RAAF but the relationship is a lot better outside in the civvy world.
A bit of extra info, when time is available, goes a long way to developing SA, as already mentioned. Even the best ATC occasionally make mistakes and it isn't unheard of for a pilot to point it out.
Just because pilots ask for the info doesn't mean ATCOs should develop an obsession with trying to put them off asking, like CUR obviously has. It's like a pilot saying:
"Require HDG ###" and adding: "for weather 1-0 ahead."
Usually the guy's gonna turn anyway and the ATCO might just think to himself, "Hmmm. If there's weather there, maybe I should vector the next tool around it, too."
What's the prob..............
I like ATCOs because they are pseudo-sharps who are generally fatter than pilots, can afford to buy more beer than engos and don't provide real competition for the moisties at our parties.
I even like you, CUR, and you too, Jizzmacho!
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
A bit of extra info, when time is available, goes a long way to developing SA
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 144
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From: the real deal
Hey that's just a little challenge. Get high? Can we get down without resorting to popping the boards???
Nowadays the above is an unpopular sentiment because the desk-bounds have brain-washed all pilates into thinking if you're enjoying yourself you are being irresponsible.
In the mundane life of an airline pilot, I find I get a certain amount of satisfaction from working wiv an ATCO who sounds like he knows what he's doing and keeps us in the loop without even having to spell it out.
Even more so is he's a sexy-sounding she with a French accent because I'm basically a sexist.
Oh and I'm also greedy.
Some friends of mine used to let me sit in the tower and record the ATIS - with suitable retarded comments added by me.
Also, I was allowed to occasionally work the GND freq which I enjoyed. It seemed like a fun job.
Nowadays the above is an unpopular sentiment because the desk-bounds have brain-washed all pilates into thinking if you're enjoying yourself you are being irresponsible.
In the mundane life of an airline pilot, I find I get a certain amount of satisfaction from working wiv an ATCO who sounds like he knows what he's doing and keeps us in the loop without even having to spell it out.
Even more so is he's a sexy-sounding she with a French accent because I'm basically a sexist.
Oh and I'm also greedy.
Some friends of mine used to let me sit in the tower and record the ATIS - with suitable retarded comments added by me.
Also, I was allowed to occasionally work the GND freq which I enjoyed. It seemed like a fun job.
