"Where's our traffic"
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I put in the bit about 'G2' for because the EZY we were waiting for (to land) looked to be so far out that perhaps we could have been allowed to go. Believe me, at CDG, we would have been away!
I realise that G2 protects the ILS.
I notice that neither Spitoon or Standard commented on the " taxi to golf one, hold short of the runway. after departure its a standard noise, then a left turn for WOTAN" call from ATC. Why not boys?
Every single element of that call was either repetion of a clearance or (in the case of noise) SOP
I also note that although you point out (correctly) that our call 'holding at G2' was plainly a prompt, and therefore unrequired (except to remind ATC that we we were willing and able to go), you make no mention of my wider point about brevity.
There are real implications here about the use of VHF comms which are certainly not lost at 'busy' airports, or on the airways where a check in frequently elicits the reply 'ABC123 Roger'. Ever heard that at BRS?
'Brevity' at BRS is definately one of your 'growth areas'. If you disagree with that you need to get out more!
I may as well say that we all put in words that we (me too) could miss out, but at BRS it's particularly bad.
It's not a crusade, and I like going into Bristol.
Really tho, I know it was really quiet for ages, but it's got a lot busier in the last few years, and I think it's about time you raised your game.
ATCOJ30 what is all this crap about 'threshold elevation' anyway? I've not heard it on VHF or ATIS at any UK airport (OK I've not been to them all) ,but really, on EVERY approach?
I think you are a nice bunch. You would do better if you simply copied ATC practice at other airports and ditched your special 'Brizzol' stuff, both on the ATIS & the VHF
Remember it's a simplex net. Any one tx denies the net to all users
I realise that G2 protects the ILS.
I notice that neither Spitoon or Standard commented on the " taxi to golf one, hold short of the runway. after departure its a standard noise, then a left turn for WOTAN" call from ATC. Why not boys?
Every single element of that call was either repetion of a clearance or (in the case of noise) SOP
I also note that although you point out (correctly) that our call 'holding at G2' was plainly a prompt, and therefore unrequired (except to remind ATC that we we were willing and able to go), you make no mention of my wider point about brevity.
There are real implications here about the use of VHF comms which are certainly not lost at 'busy' airports, or on the airways where a check in frequently elicits the reply 'ABC123 Roger'. Ever heard that at BRS?
'Brevity' at BRS is definately one of your 'growth areas'. If you disagree with that you need to get out more!
I may as well say that we all put in words that we (me too) could miss out, but at BRS it's particularly bad.
It's not a crusade, and I like going into Bristol.
Really tho, I know it was really quiet for ages, but it's got a lot busier in the last few years, and I think it's about time you raised your game.
ATCOJ30 what is all this crap about 'threshold elevation' anyway? I've not heard it on VHF or ATIS at any UK airport (OK I've not been to them all) ,but really, on EVERY approach?
I think you are a nice bunch. You would do better if you simply copied ATC practice at other airports and ditched your special 'Brizzol' stuff, both on the ATIS & the VHF
Remember it's a simplex net. Any one tx denies the net to all users
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Quote from brainfade (who is anti-EDI as well as anti-BRS)...
"I put in the bit about 'G2' for because the EZY we were waiting for (to land) looked to be so far out that perhaps we could have been allowed to go. Believe me, at CDG, we would have been away!"
Tower controllers judge gaps every single working day, in many cases several hundred times every working day. Guess what? Most of them are pretty good at it. Often, a gap that looks usable to a pilot isn't, sometimes gue to simple visual perspective and sometimes because there's a reason that can't be seen from the cockpit. That could be slower departed traffic ahead, overflights crossing the departure path, too much traffic on the sector to which departures will be handed over, the list goes on.
Most tower controllers derive great satifaction from firing off departures as quickly as safely possible, and in the smallest usable gaps between arrivals (I certainly did!) so calling when you're at the hold, and can be seen perfectly well by TWR who has a vested interest in getting you airborne and off his frequency ASAP, is utterly superfluous.
"I put in the bit about 'G2' for because the EZY we were waiting for (to land) looked to be so far out that perhaps we could have been allowed to go. Believe me, at CDG, we would have been away!"
Tower controllers judge gaps every single working day, in many cases several hundred times every working day. Guess what? Most of them are pretty good at it. Often, a gap that looks usable to a pilot isn't, sometimes gue to simple visual perspective and sometimes because there's a reason that can't be seen from the cockpit. That could be slower departed traffic ahead, overflights crossing the departure path, too much traffic on the sector to which departures will be handed over, the list goes on.
Most tower controllers derive great satifaction from firing off departures as quickly as safely possible, and in the smallest usable gaps between arrivals (I certainly did!) so calling when you're at the hold, and can be seen perfectly well by TWR who has a vested interest in getting you airborne and off his frequency ASAP, is utterly superfluous.
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I notice that neither Spitoon or Standard commented on the " taxi to golf one, hold short of the runway. after departure its a standard noise, then a left turn for WOTAN" call from ATC. Why not boys?
I see LnL has added some reasons why you might not get away when you think you ought to. Also, bear in mind that every departure from BRS requires a release (though I stand to be corrected!) from approach (and/or maybe Cardiff as well).
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Gonzo yep, you're half right, every IFR dep requires a release from radar, and the problem is, we have to obtain that before we taxy an a/c from G2 to G1.
Only if we have the release, can we be sure of getting the a/c away. No point in taxiing someone past G2 and not being able to get the release and then causing a go around because the one on the ILS isn't happy at getting G/P fluctuations at a critical phase of landing.
BTW, brain fade, that explains why we sometimes ask the inbound if they are visual, and if they say yes, then we taxy you forward to G1 and explain to the inbound that they may get G/P fluctuations due to your prescence at G1. Oh, sorry, would that be a lack of brevity on the r/t?
Ah well, all in the name of using the 5 mile gap.
Right now brain fade, if we're on the subject of looking at each others' working practices, then I'm going to say something that may annoy you. Some of the pilots here at Bristol and in particular the E145 jockeys really do need to raise their game a bit. I used to work at Belfast City, where on 22, we had a backtrack for every dep. Quite often, we would have the Embraers backtracking 500 metres or so, turning and rolling, all in a tiny 6 mile gap. It worked! When I came here to Bristol, I was told that I'd be lucky to get any Embraer to accept a dep when there was a 5 mile gap. I was shocked to say the least, considering there is no backtrack on 27 and only a 250 metre taxy from G2 to the 09 threshold. So if we're looking for improvements, tell me why pilots on all the types based at or operating into BHD can use 6 mile gaps with a backtrack of 500m but at Bristol, they can't with no backtrack or only a 250m taxy???????
See, I knew you wouldn't like that one.
Oh, and another thing, when you are ready for departure, it's customary to inform the tower by saying "ABC123 ready for departure", not "ABC123 holding at G2."
There's not one of us ATCO's here at Bristol that isn't committed to using every gap we can for departures. Pity we can't say the same for the pilots who use this airport.
As for "taxy to G1, hold short of the runway. After departure standard noise, then a left turn to WOT", Gonzo is correct, there's nothing wrong with that. We get hammered by our own management and the Campaign Against Aviation when there is a runway incursion, even if it's not our fault, so we tend to use this phrase, or say "hold position....." then give the release. Point is, some pilots think that once they've been told "after departure......" they think it's some hidden instruction to line up, or even worse, they say "after dep std noise ABC123 cleared take off." And yes, I've had that read back to me more than once here at Bristol. Maybe it's an English thing!?
Finally, and only cos I'm off home soon, " you would do better if you simply copied ATC practice at other airports and ditched you special Brizzol stuff....."
Hey, the CAA gives us some books (MATS pt 1/ UK AIP/ CAP670 etc etc) and we have to work within the framework of said publications. We do. End of.
Clear as mud?
Oh yeah, just one final thought.......
If you don\'t think we\'re much kop here at Bristol, get yerself of down the nearest friendly ATC college and get a licence. Then we\'ll see what your made of! Failing that why not ask for a transfer?
Only if we have the release, can we be sure of getting the a/c away. No point in taxiing someone past G2 and not being able to get the release and then causing a go around because the one on the ILS isn't happy at getting G/P fluctuations at a critical phase of landing.
BTW, brain fade, that explains why we sometimes ask the inbound if they are visual, and if they say yes, then we taxy you forward to G1 and explain to the inbound that they may get G/P fluctuations due to your prescence at G1. Oh, sorry, would that be a lack of brevity on the r/t?
Ah well, all in the name of using the 5 mile gap. Right now brain fade, if we're on the subject of looking at each others' working practices, then I'm going to say something that may annoy you. Some of the pilots here at Bristol and in particular the E145 jockeys really do need to raise their game a bit. I used to work at Belfast City, where on 22, we had a backtrack for every dep. Quite often, we would have the Embraers backtracking 500 metres or so, turning and rolling, all in a tiny 6 mile gap. It worked! When I came here to Bristol, I was told that I'd be lucky to get any Embraer to accept a dep when there was a 5 mile gap. I was shocked to say the least, considering there is no backtrack on 27 and only a 250 metre taxy from G2 to the 09 threshold. So if we're looking for improvements, tell me why pilots on all the types based at or operating into BHD can use 6 mile gaps with a backtrack of 500m but at Bristol, they can't with no backtrack or only a 250m taxy???????
See, I knew you wouldn't like that one.
Oh, and another thing, when you are ready for departure, it's customary to inform the tower by saying "ABC123 ready for departure", not "ABC123 holding at G2."
There's not one of us ATCO's here at Bristol that isn't committed to using every gap we can for departures. Pity we can't say the same for the pilots who use this airport.
As for "taxy to G1, hold short of the runway. After departure standard noise, then a left turn to WOT", Gonzo is correct, there's nothing wrong with that. We get hammered by our own management and the Campaign Against Aviation when there is a runway incursion, even if it's not our fault, so we tend to use this phrase, or say "hold position....." then give the release. Point is, some pilots think that once they've been told "after departure......" they think it's some hidden instruction to line up, or even worse, they say "after dep std noise ABC123 cleared take off." And yes, I've had that read back to me more than once here at Bristol. Maybe it's an English thing!?
Finally, and only cos I'm off home soon, " you would do better if you simply copied ATC practice at other airports and ditched you special Brizzol stuff....."
Hey, the CAA gives us some books (MATS pt 1/ UK AIP/ CAP670 etc etc) and we have to work within the framework of said publications. We do. End of.
Clear as mud?
Oh yeah, just one final thought.......
If you don\'t think we\'re much kop here at Bristol, get yerself of down the nearest friendly ATC college and get a licence. Then we\'ll see what your made of! Failing that why not ask for a transfer?
Last edited by Standard Noise; 27th Apr 2005 at 05:25.
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From Brain
From Spitty
From the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1
And yes, the day I get my ATPL I might try to tell a pilot how he should fly his aircraft. When Brain gets a controllers' licence I might have some time to debate the niceties of how to control more than one aeroplane. In the meantime....
I notice that neither Spitoon or Standard commented on the " taxi to golf one, hold short of the runway. after departure its a standard noise, then a left turn for WOTAN" call from ATC. Why not boys?
You want to know why you were told to hold short. It's because you were being given a departure clearance but you were not yet cleared to line-up. Maybe you understood this. Maybe you've never lined up on a runway without a clearance - but trust me, if you did, you wouldn't be the first.
After an aircraft has been instructed to hold clear of the runway and a clearance message is passed which might be misinterpreted as permission to take-off, the clearance shall be prefixed with an instruction to hold position.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Spitoon - nah, don't wait til you get an ATPL, just tell 'em what they should be doing, works for me!
If bf thinks he could do any better than you or I, then let him try, if he's got the balls...........................oh, and his own 'yellow peril' of course.
If bf thinks he could do any better than you or I, then let him try, if he's got the balls...........................oh, and his own 'yellow peril' of course.
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Standard Noise:
I agree with almost everything you say, apart from:
"BTW, brain fade, that explains why we sometimes ask the inbound if they are visual, and if they say yes, then we taxy you forward to G1 and explain to the inbound that they may get G/P fluctuations due to your prescence at G1. "
As someone who operates on both sides of the gulf that seems to have opened up on this subject, I would argue that once I am visual with the runway and/or the PAPIs, then glidepath fluctuations are irrelevant, as I am using the eyeball and not the ILS to judge my flightpath. Thus I would suggest that your explanation to the inbound might be superfluous, but no more so than a call to report at a holding point which is visible to the Tower!
1-1 then...?!
I agree with almost everything you say, apart from:
"BTW, brain fade, that explains why we sometimes ask the inbound if they are visual, and if they say yes, then we taxy you forward to G1 and explain to the inbound that they may get G/P fluctuations due to your prescence at G1. "
As someone who operates on both sides of the gulf that seems to have opened up on this subject, I would argue that once I am visual with the runway and/or the PAPIs, then glidepath fluctuations are irrelevant, as I am using the eyeball and not the ILS to judge my flightpath. Thus I would suggest that your explanation to the inbound might be superfluous, but no more so than a call to report at a holding point which is visible to the Tower!
1-1 then...?!
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hmmm.....
Just to be clear. Not saying BRS unsafe or 'unprofessional'.
just saying a lot of clearances are repeated. Any denials?
I also acknowledge what you say re some pilots taking to long to go after saying 'ready'. thats poor.
If you guys at BRS don't agree with me that there is a lot of verbal diarrhoea (is that how you spell it?) on the freq then frankly you've got your heads in the sand, my luvvers! Every pilot I know at BRS would be too polite to tell you, but not me as you can see!
There has to be a limit tho' to my moaning, so it's about time I shut the **** up
I've no wish to be an air trafficker, sooner be a drug trafficker, the whole ATC plot gives me the willies, but in a previous life I was a B1 signaller in HM forces and I fuggin hate pish poor sloppy voice procedure on the VHF.
As someone said to me once, "bad service is only a problem if you accept it".
The VP at BRS, is particularly 'wordy' and frankly if you were as busy as you may well be in a few years, you'd brush it up.
I'm not going on about this forever, so ignore my comments if you want.
Brevity is important in comms. Are you really saying you could miss out nothing?
Just to be clear. Not saying BRS unsafe or 'unprofessional'.
just saying a lot of clearances are repeated. Any denials?
I also acknowledge what you say re some pilots taking to long to go after saying 'ready'. thats poor.
If you guys at BRS don't agree with me that there is a lot of verbal diarrhoea (is that how you spell it?) on the freq then frankly you've got your heads in the sand, my luvvers! Every pilot I know at BRS would be too polite to tell you, but not me as you can see!
There has to be a limit tho' to my moaning, so it's about time I shut the **** up
I've no wish to be an air trafficker, sooner be a drug trafficker, the whole ATC plot gives me the willies, but in a previous life I was a B1 signaller in HM forces and I fuggin hate pish poor sloppy voice procedure on the VHF.
As someone said to me once, "bad service is only a problem if you accept it".
The VP at BRS, is particularly 'wordy' and frankly if you were as busy as you may well be in a few years, you'd brush it up.
I'm not going on about this forever, so ignore my comments if you want.
Brevity is important in comms. Are you really saying you could miss out nothing?
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Brain Fade
From MATS Part 1....
7.3.5 If it is known that a particular company uses, or a pilot has clearly indicated that he will use, QNH during the final approach the controller may omit QFE and substitute QNH and aerodrome elevation or if appropriate, the threshold elevation in RTF messages.
Up here at the Ice Station the Threshold Elevation of the runway in use is included in the ATIS - when Pontius was a pilot and 90% of our customers used QFE we used to pass the appropriate figure to the 10% that landed using QNH - now the world has changed and nearly everbody uses QNH the figure goes on the ATIS to save constant repetition.
Re: Standard Noise's comments on E145's...
Embraer Regional Jets were the prompt for my signature
DD
"I cleared you for take off, I didn't give you squatters rights!"
ATCOJ30 what is all this crap about 'threshold elevation' anyway? I've not heard it on VHF or ATIS at any UK airport (OK I've not been to them all) ,but really, on EVERY approach?
From MATS Part 1....
7.3.5 If it is known that a particular company uses, or a pilot has clearly indicated that he will use, QNH during the final approach the controller may omit QFE and substitute QNH and aerodrome elevation or if appropriate, the threshold elevation in RTF messages.
Up here at the Ice Station the Threshold Elevation of the runway in use is included in the ATIS - when Pontius was a pilot and 90% of our customers used QFE we used to pass the appropriate figure to the 10% that landed using QNH - now the world has changed and nearly everbody uses QNH the figure goes on the ATIS to save constant repetition.
Re: Standard Noise's comments on E145's...
Embraer Regional Jets were the prompt for my signature
DD
"I cleared you for take off, I didn't give you squatters rights!"
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Right, let's have another go then................
eyeinthesky- unfortunately, everything we do is regulated by the Campaign Against Aviation, and these nice chaps just love to jump on the poor overworked ATCO when something goes wrong (whether it's the ATCO's fault or not). Therfore, we indulge in a favourite hobby of ours, it's called 'back-covering'. Thus the reason why we say "........you may experience some glide path fluctuations......." Just cos a pilot claims he's visual, doesn't mean he's not got one eye on the G/P indications. We just have to legislate for the lowest common denominator (you know the sort, pilots who moan about traffic in the circuit being too close, despite being in class D and being passed the appropriate tfc info).
brain fade - "just saying that a lot of clearances are repeated. Any denials?"
No, I'm not denying it, but as I said above, we have to legislate for the lowest common denominator, which, quite often, can be the 'professional' smartie tube drivers rather than the ppl students.
DD - which airport is it that has the threshold elevation on their Pamos? Am I right in saying it's Edinburgh?
eyeinthesky- unfortunately, everything we do is regulated by the Campaign Against Aviation, and these nice chaps just love to jump on the poor overworked ATCO when something goes wrong (whether it's the ATCO's fault or not). Therfore, we indulge in a favourite hobby of ours, it's called 'back-covering'. Thus the reason why we say "........you may experience some glide path fluctuations......." Just cos a pilot claims he's visual, doesn't mean he's not got one eye on the G/P indications. We just have to legislate for the lowest common denominator (you know the sort, pilots who moan about traffic in the circuit being too close, despite being in class D and being passed the appropriate tfc info).
brain fade - "just saying that a lot of clearances are repeated. Any denials?"
No, I'm not denying it, but as I said above, we have to legislate for the lowest common denominator, which, quite often, can be the 'professional' smartie tube drivers rather than the ppl students.
DD - which airport is it that has the threshold elevation on their Pamos? Am I right in saying it's Edinburgh?
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Standard
This 'back covering' of which you speak, is at the bottom of a lot of this. It's no excuse tho.
Many airports (and the en route folk) don't have the time to do such a thorough job on the back covering as you guys at quieter airports like BRS. therefore they rely simply on good practice.
Try it.
This 'back covering' of which you speak, is at the bottom of a lot of this. It's no excuse tho.
Many airports (and the en route folk) don't have the time to do such a thorough job on the back covering as you guys at quieter airports like BRS. therefore they rely simply on good practice.
Try it.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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S'not my good practice I'm relying on, it's yours!
And until the Campaign Against Atco's leave us be to get on with it, it will remain our favourite hobby.
And until the Campaign Against Atco's leave us be to get on with it, it will remain our favourite hobby.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Look, in the last two shifts of this cycle (quiet nightshifts), I've had a heading of 275 read back as 270 and an altitude of 2500' read back as 2000'. Both times by 'professional' smartie tube drivers. When you guys start to get it 100% right, then we'll be able to relax with the repetitive back covering clearances. Another favourite which has happened more than once in my last 6 duties, has been "ABC123 taxy to holding point G2."
"ABC123 taxying to G1" Mon Dieu!!!!!!
Is English not your first language? I know I grew up in NI, but my accent isn't that strong !
"ABC123 taxying to G1" Mon Dieu!!!!!!
Is English not your first language? I know I grew up in NI, but my accent isn't that strong !
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As long as people issue and read back instructions, there going to be mistakes. Doesn't mean you have to say everything twice!
You're missing the point again my babber!
You're missing the point again my babber!
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Where i work (regional airport similar size to BRS) we neither pass the elevation (except for an SRA) by RT or on the atis, and I have never been asked for it.
Personally I think passsing it to a commercial aircraft is tantamount to telling em the final approach track or ILS frequency??? Correct me if I'm wrong here pilots, but arent most of you landing ref the rad alt these days anyway, and pressumeably its a requirement to have the appropraite plate in front of you anyway which has all that info on it. And even the aircraft that dont have rad alts have still never asked me for the elevation.
I'm not having a pop at anyone who does it(and certainly dont want this to degenerate into another Bristol slagging exercise), as lots of places ive flown to do pass the elev, my point is that if we dont pass it, and no one has every complained or said we should...is it really necessary???
Personally I think passsing it to a commercial aircraft is tantamount to telling em the final approach track or ILS frequency??? Correct me if I'm wrong here pilots, but arent most of you landing ref the rad alt these days anyway, and pressumeably its a requirement to have the appropraite plate in front of you anyway which has all that info on it. And even the aircraft that dont have rad alts have still never asked me for the elevation.
I'm not having a pop at anyone who does it(and certainly dont want this to degenerate into another Bristol slagging exercise), as lots of places ive flown to do pass the elev, my point is that if we dont pass it, and no one has every complained or said we should...is it really necessary???