"Where's our traffic"
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"Where's our traffic"
This is going to sound like another controller bitch and moan,but I want to highlight a phrase I have heard from pilots over teh past couple of weeks that does not sound professional at all.
On first contact pilot instructed to reduce speed/turn/etc. A minute or two later comes the dreaded:
"Where is our traffic?"
I realise keeping the pilot in the picture is part of our job but a comment like that doesn't achieve anything.I might have priority traffic departing from another runway. And I know it isn't every pilot that does it but its more than a few.
On first contact pilot instructed to reduce speed/turn/etc. A minute or two later comes the dreaded:
"Where is our traffic?"
I realise keeping the pilot in the picture is part of our job but a comment like that doesn't achieve anything.I might have priority traffic departing from another runway. And I know it isn't every pilot that does it but its more than a few.
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Bookworm:
While keeping the pilot in the picture planning wise is a nice touch, it is certainly not top on the priority list for an ATCO. With all due respect why do you need to know our plan? If we had to explain our thinking to a pilot every time we gave an instruction the system would just grind to a halt.
I personally find little comments like 'where is our traffic' and 'what number are we' not only annoying but potentially distracting. Just because the frequency is quiet it doen not mean the ATCO is sitting there doing the crossword. It probably means he is talking or co-ordinating on one of his many telephone lines or intercoms. Having somebody wittering in your ear with superfluous and non-standard phraseology is a pain in the butt.
While keeping the pilot in the picture planning wise is a nice touch, it is certainly not top on the priority list for an ATCO. With all due respect why do you need to know our plan? If we had to explain our thinking to a pilot every time we gave an instruction the system would just grind to a halt.
I personally find little comments like 'where is our traffic' and 'what number are we' not only annoying but potentially distracting. Just because the frequency is quiet it doen not mean the ATCO is sitting there doing the crossword. It probably means he is talking or co-ordinating on one of his many telephone lines or intercoms. Having somebody wittering in your ear with superfluous and non-standard phraseology is a pain in the butt.
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What bookworm is saying is that it is part of 'situational awareness' which is, in general, a GOOD thing to have - for pilots, anyway. Our TCAS has made a huge difference to our interpretation of the airspace around us but it IS limited in scope.
If the USA do not want pilots in their airspace to have 'SA', that is their choice. It will not stop us asking.
CRR - you do not tell us which particular part of the control scene you are, but is it really SO difficult to keep us in the loop? We do not wish to know the other pilot's sock size or auntie's name, but a clue as to why we are turning/slowing/levelling what-have-you does actually help. EG - 'number 5 in traffic' when we have been kept high-speed/straight-line to ctr/fix by the previous sector does affect the way we do things and does not take long to say?
Just seen TIAC's post and again - I would say that a clue as to what lies ahead from you guys and girls does help a lot. 'Track miles' are another very useful tool which LGW inbounds at least are very good at - and saves us asking for those, too - and messing up the crossword
If the USA do not want pilots in their airspace to have 'SA', that is their choice. It will not stop us asking.
CRR - you do not tell us which particular part of the control scene you are, but is it really SO difficult to keep us in the loop? We do not wish to know the other pilot's sock size or auntie's name, but a clue as to why we are turning/slowing/levelling what-have-you does actually help. EG - 'number 5 in traffic' when we have been kept high-speed/straight-line to ctr/fix by the previous sector does affect the way we do things and does not take long to say?
Just seen TIAC's post and again - I would say that a clue as to what lies ahead from you guys and girls does help a lot. 'Track miles' are another very useful tool which LGW inbounds at least are very good at - and saves us asking for those, too - and messing up the crossword
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BOAC
Quite agree that situational awareness is a good thing. But most situational awareness, I would suggest, is gained by listening in on the frequency and building a picture of what is going on. Although it would be nice, it really is impossible to explain every move you make to each aircraft.
I have found that when it is busy, the pilots with the best situational awareness are those who realise it is busy and don't add further to the problems by interrupting a controllers 'line of thought' with further questions. Of course every pilot has the right to query any ATC instruction but if it is busy dont be surprised to fine that the answer to the question "Where is number 1" is:
"Ahead of you!"
Quite agree that situational awareness is a good thing. But most situational awareness, I would suggest, is gained by listening in on the frequency and building a picture of what is going on. Although it would be nice, it really is impossible to explain every move you make to each aircraft.
I have found that when it is busy, the pilots with the best situational awareness are those who realise it is busy and don't add further to the problems by interrupting a controllers 'line of thought' with further questions. Of course every pilot has the right to query any ATC instruction but if it is busy dont be surprised to fine that the answer to the question "Where is number 1" is:
"Ahead of you!"
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Student controllers are taught what the MATS Pt 1 Section 3 Page 2 Para 9 which says:
9.1 The position of an aircraft is to be passed to the pilot at least once on each leg of the circuit.
9.2 Position information for an aircraft making a straight-in approach is to be passed at least once before it commences the final descent.
Note that the phrase "is to be" makes it mandatory.
That of course is the bare minimum required by "The Book". We also teach that, providing the spare capacity exists, number in traffic is useful, a/c type ahead if particularly slow or heavy can give a clue. We also teach that good practice is to give track-miles to touchdown when turning base leg, when turning onto the closing heading, and immediately before QSY to TWR. A good radar controller will be keeping an eye on the Mode C and adjusting the track miles accordingly.
It is to be hoped that on first contact the pilot is informed what sort of approach he will be making e.g. "Vectoring for an ILS approach RWY 26". However, one must accept that when the R/T loading is approaching 100%, the important stuff, like stopping planes banging into each other, takes precedence over the nicities of how far you have to go and what that boring aircraft is you are following. Believe it or not, we do teach that a well informed pilot is less likely to ask questions and is more likely to do what he is told without quibble, thereby making every-one's life easier.
In the interests of PC, any reference to the masculine gender should be taken to include the feminine gender also.
9.1 The position of an aircraft is to be passed to the pilot at least once on each leg of the circuit.
9.2 Position information for an aircraft making a straight-in approach is to be passed at least once before it commences the final descent.
Note that the phrase "is to be" makes it mandatory.
That of course is the bare minimum required by "The Book". We also teach that, providing the spare capacity exists, number in traffic is useful, a/c type ahead if particularly slow or heavy can give a clue. We also teach that good practice is to give track-miles to touchdown when turning base leg, when turning onto the closing heading, and immediately before QSY to TWR. A good radar controller will be keeping an eye on the Mode C and adjusting the track miles accordingly.
It is to be hoped that on first contact the pilot is informed what sort of approach he will be making e.g. "Vectoring for an ILS approach RWY 26". However, one must accept that when the R/T loading is approaching 100%, the important stuff, like stopping planes banging into each other, takes precedence over the nicities of how far you have to go and what that boring aircraft is you are following. Believe it or not, we do teach that a well informed pilot is less likely to ask questions and is more likely to do what he is told without quibble, thereby making every-one's life easier.
In the interests of PC, any reference to the masculine gender should be taken to include the feminine gender also.
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TIAC - CRR's post said "On first contact pilot instructed to reduce speed/turn/etc.", so the 'listening in' option is not an option - and to suddenly find you are number 5 with no clue given before does change the way we do things. It might even be a turn which significantly shortens the APPARENT track miles - which can be a problem for us.
It would not take even the most stupid of us long to detect a busy sector, I can assure you, and I would hope we all keep Stumm, but the 'unexpected' is always better received when a LITTLE background is given. If there is a reason why I might need to level for a while, or even significantly reduce my ROD, say, at FL100 on descent to,?FL60? (maybe for a cabin pressure problem or whatever), or descend at 240kts all the way from FL330, I would aim to say a brief 'why' to you when I announce it, rather than your having to ask and interrupt my unfinished crossword. It will help YOU plan too.
It would not take even the most stupid of us long to detect a busy sector, I can assure you, and I would hope we all keep Stumm, but the 'unexpected' is always better received when a LITTLE background is given. If there is a reason why I might need to level for a while, or even significantly reduce my ROD, say, at FL100 on descent to,?FL60? (maybe for a cabin pressure problem or whatever), or descend at 240kts all the way from FL330, I would aim to say a brief 'why' to you when I announce it, rather than your having to ask and interrupt my unfinished crossword.
It will help YOU plan too.
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"Where's our traffic?" is heard by ATC as "why aren't we number 1?" and thus assigned the label whinge.
You already know why you're being vectored because you'll have heard it on first contact with approach. "Vectoring for the ILS" or whatever the approach happens to be, or it'll be in the STAR to "expect vectors". A vector is not just a heading; think back to those vector diagrams you drew in nav training and at school. A vector is a heading at a specified speed. We are not required to tell you where traffic is from which you're separated (except in Canada where we do have to give traffic if your blips will merge at minimum vertical sep).
If you're hoping from a visual approach and you're number 2, by all means ask for the traffic so you can follow it. If you just want to whinge about slowing down or being widened out, try to act your age.
You already know why you're being vectored because you'll have heard it on first contact with approach. "Vectoring for the ILS" or whatever the approach happens to be, or it'll be in the STAR to "expect vectors". A vector is not just a heading; think back to those vector diagrams you drew in nav training and at school. A vector is a heading at a specified speed. We are not required to tell you where traffic is from which you're separated (except in Canada where we do have to give traffic if your blips will merge at minimum vertical sep).
If you're hoping from a visual approach and you're number 2, by all means ask for the traffic so you can follow it. If you just want to whinge about slowing down or being widened out, try to act your age.
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Bern Oulli,
Just out of interest I wonder why it is taught that way. I think most pilots would agree that by the time the base leg turn has been made the descent profile has prety much happend, and range checks are becoming less important, similarly i see little point in giving a range check once the pilot is established (although many of my colleagues do) as the pilot should now be receiving the DME and will know far more accurately (radar being history) how far he has to go than i can tell him.
Personally I will give a range check as soon as possible after first contact on approach and again about 20 nm from touchdown; i may give further checks if i think the a/c is flying an "inappropriate" descent profile.
But quite often the answer to "how many track miles" is " how many do you want"!!!
Just out of interest I wonder why it is taught that way. I think most pilots would agree that by the time the base leg turn has been made the descent profile has prety much happend, and range checks are becoming less important, similarly i see little point in giving a range check once the pilot is established (although many of my colleagues do) as the pilot should now be receiving the DME and will know far more accurately (radar being history) how far he has to go than i can tell him.
Personally I will give a range check as soon as possible after first contact on approach and again about 20 nm from touchdown; i may give further checks if i think the a/c is flying an "inappropriate" descent profile.
But quite often the answer to "how many track miles" is " how many do you want"!!!
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Some common sense is helpful here. If the frequency is going b@lls out, the reason you haven't been told why you're being put on the heading or given a change of level (i.e. a revision to a climb or descent clearance that stops off early) is because the controller probably has little enough time to think never mind tell everyone what the plan is. If it's quieter the controller will probably give you the information - if it's that quiet yopu'll probably go in a straight line wherever you're trying to get to anyway.
In the old days, before TCAS, I can understand that a pilot might have wanted more info but these days the close in situational awareness to avoid a collision is largely provided by TCAS - so I can only conclude that the requests made by pilots for traffic info are made for less significant reasons.
I've been in the ATC business for a good many years and if there's one thing I can promise you it's that controllers do not put aircraft on a heading or stop it off unless there's a good reason. And that reason will almost inevitably be another aircraft or some similar good reason. I can't speak for others but I won't do it because it increases my workload and I'm lazy. The upshot is that even if you ask where the traffic is, and I tell you, it's not going to change anything.
One final thought. If a pilot refuses a clearance that I issue but doesn't say why I'm not going to ask why - I'll assume there's a good reason and sort something else out.
In the old days, before TCAS, I can understand that a pilot might have wanted more info but these days the close in situational awareness to avoid a collision is largely provided by TCAS - so I can only conclude that the requests made by pilots for traffic info are made for less significant reasons.
I've been in the ATC business for a good many years and if there's one thing I can promise you it's that controllers do not put aircraft on a heading or stop it off unless there's a good reason. And that reason will almost inevitably be another aircraft or some similar good reason. I can't speak for others but I won't do it because it increases my workload and I'm lazy. The upshot is that even if you ask where the traffic is, and I tell you, it's not going to change anything.
One final thought. If a pilot refuses a clearance that I issue but doesn't say why I'm not going to ask why - I'll assume there's a good reason and sort something else out.
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I think Spitoon has it about right. Most aircrew recognise when a sector is busy and keep quiet. Similarly, controllers will usually explain if they are instructing something out of the ordinary.
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Also - don't forget that traffic doesn't necessarily have to be airborne yet but could be still at the holding point in a very long queue!
Spacing via speed control and additonal vectors could also be to meet the towers spacing requirements - balancing the delays for all
Spacing via speed control and additonal vectors could also be to meet the towers spacing requirements - balancing the delays for all
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Bookworm,
In the London area, "thank you for putting me on this heading which will ensure I don't hold up all the much bigger and much faster traffic too much whilst also ensuring I safely reach my intended destination" (and if you're in the Mooney all free of charge as well) 
Anyone is entitled to ask what their number in the sequence is inbound to Gatwick or Heathrow, it'll be....last. Only joking, only joking
BOAC, inbound Gatwick, unless extending the vectoring instead of going once round the hold, it's only required to give track miles on first descent from flight level to altitude (same at Heathrow).
Assuming time available, and there usually should be, would you like a check further back e.g. leave LARCK heading 270 degress, forty miles to go". Would only be a rough guide, more accurate at descent point mentioned above.
WF.
So what phraseology would you prefer when you put me on a heading without giving any explanation and I need to understand what you're planning?
Anyone is entitled to ask what their number in the sequence is inbound to Gatwick or Heathrow, it'll be....last. Only joking, only joking
BOAC, inbound Gatwick, unless extending the vectoring instead of going once round the hold, it's only required to give track miles on first descent from flight level to altitude (same at Heathrow).
Assuming time available, and there usually should be, would you like a check further back e.g. leave LARCK heading 270 degress, forty miles to go". Would only be a rough guide, more accurate at descent point mentioned above.
WF.
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Had an "interesting" conversation with a visiting E145 FO the other day, who accused ATCOs at my unit of filling-in the empty gaps in the RTF with what he termed "un-necessary info" on aircraft which he deemed to be of no relevance to him.
For example:
1. helos hovering on the grass areas to one side of the RWY
2. aircraft postioning visually behind his a/c, from the downwind position in the visual cct
3. potential TCAS traffic which was 1000 feet separated from him but opposite direction
We routinely pass this info in order to:
a) pre-empt pilots asking what the traffic is and where it is
b) to cover our backsides if the circuit traffic or helos do something stupid
c) prevent silly TCAS reports and unwelcome AIRPROXES caused by pilots sighting the other traffic ands thinking it's closer than it really is (has happened at least three times now)
d) assisting the situational awareness of pilots
e) trying to cover as many unplannedl eventualities as poss (ATCOs v.good at this, pilots???) such as the late go-round, busy flight-deck tryin to sort-out a problem and then the aircraft flies off the centreline, to one side of the runway.
One question for the pilot brigade: when you know you're # 2 on the ILS and you have one ahead (which presemably you can see on TCAS), why do some of you delight in trying to close the gap and eroding the vortex wake/radar spacing)? Bloody-mindedness or do you expect us to impose speed control to 4 miles every time? Just a thought....
For example:
1. helos hovering on the grass areas to one side of the RWY
2. aircraft postioning visually behind his a/c, from the downwind position in the visual cct
3. potential TCAS traffic which was 1000 feet separated from him but opposite direction
We routinely pass this info in order to:
a) pre-empt pilots asking what the traffic is and where it is
b) to cover our backsides if the circuit traffic or helos do something stupid
c) prevent silly TCAS reports and unwelcome AIRPROXES caused by pilots sighting the other traffic ands thinking it's closer than it really is (has happened at least three times now)
d) assisting the situational awareness of pilots
e) trying to cover as many unplannedl eventualities as poss (ATCOs v.good at this, pilots???) such as the late go-round, busy flight-deck tryin to sort-out a problem and then the aircraft flies off the centreline, to one side of the runway.
One question for the pilot brigade: when you know you're # 2 on the ILS and you have one ahead (which presemably you can see on TCAS), why do some of you delight in trying to close the gap and eroding the vortex wake/radar spacing)? Bloody-mindedness or do you expect us to impose speed control to 4 miles every time? Just a thought....
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Evil J
to answer on Bern Oulli's behalf, the "why it's taught like that" is because the College (now known as DAT&S...and no I don't know what that means either) has a duty/responsibility to teach the 'book' before the practical short cuts.
With regard to distance from touchdown transmissions on base leg...it makes a difference if you're 8 miles south of the extended centreline, turning base, aiming at 16 mile final with potentially 24 miles to run which (may) be closed up by a tighter vector on base leg. TCAS won't tell you that...and incidentally, when the turn to intercept is given, students are told the ILS/DME will kick in and distance from touchdown information is superfluous.
Hope you realise Bern & his colleagues are trying to prepare the guys who (might) pay for your pension as best they can.
Tori
to answer on Bern Oulli's behalf, the "why it's taught like that" is because the College (now known as DAT&S...and no I don't know what that means either) has a duty/responsibility to teach the 'book' before the practical short cuts.
With regard to distance from touchdown transmissions on base leg...it makes a difference if you're 8 miles south of the extended centreline, turning base, aiming at 16 mile final with potentially 24 miles to run which (may) be closed up by a tighter vector on base leg. TCAS won't tell you that...and incidentally, when the turn to intercept is given, students are told the ILS/DME will kick in and distance from touchdown information is superfluous.
Hope you realise Bern & his colleagues are trying to prepare the guys who (might) pay for your pension as best they can.
Tori
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ATCO J30
Re lack of Brevity on your stations VHF
heres a bit of a transcript from the other day.
Us. 'ABC123 taxi'
BRS Twr 'ABC 123 taxi G2' ok so far
Us. 'ABC123 G2' ie may we proceed?
Twr. 'pass your msg'
Us 'ABC 123 just to let you know we are at G2'
Twr 'Roger hold at G2' Which is what we are doing!
Us ' Hold at G2' have to read back an instruction.
Twr 'ABC 123 taxi G1'
Us ' ABC 123 taxi to G1'. ok
Twr 'ABC 123 taxi to G1, hold short of the runway. after departure its standard noise then a left turn to WOTAN'
Us (read it back)
ATCO can you spot any superflous RT in this? I think this is the sort of waffle your fo was on about!
I sympatise with point b) in your post and I'm sure thats why you do a lot of it but......... brevity is important in rt. It's not a luxury. transmissions must be kept as short as possible!
In the horrible mid air twixt that DHL and the -154 it was not possible for the DHL crew to get out their vital 'TCAS descent' call due to the freq being busy. Had they been able to get the call out the accident may have been avoided.
Keep it brief. If it dont need saying.... Don't say it!
Re lack of Brevity on your stations VHF
heres a bit of a transcript from the other day.
Us. 'ABC123 taxi'
BRS Twr 'ABC 123 taxi G2' ok so far
Us. 'ABC123 G2' ie may we proceed?
Twr. 'pass your msg'
Us 'ABC 123 just to let you know we are at G2'
Twr 'Roger hold at G2' Which is what we are doing!
Us ' Hold at G2' have to read back an instruction.
Twr 'ABC 123 taxi G1'
Us ' ABC 123 taxi to G1'. ok
Twr 'ABC 123 taxi to G1, hold short of the runway. after departure its standard noise then a left turn to WOTAN'
Us (read it back)
ATCO can you spot any superflous RT in this? I think this is the sort of waffle your fo was on about!
I sympatise with point b) in your post and I'm sure thats why you do a lot of it but......... brevity is important in rt. It's not a luxury. transmissions must be kept as short as possible!
In the horrible mid air twixt that DHL and the -154 it was not possible for the DHL crew to get out their vital 'TCAS descent' call due to the freq being busy. Had they been able to get the call out the accident may have been avoided.
Keep it brief. If it dont need saying.... Don't say it!
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brain fade - "Keep it brief. If it don't need saying.... Don't say it!" mmm, indeed.
Us "ABC123 at G2" - A bit superfluous. We sit in a little room with 12 ft high glass windows and guess what, we can see you at G2!
The reason you are held there is so you don't interfere with the glide path signal. If it's possible to hold you at G1, then we'll instruct you to taxy to G1. So telling us you've reached G2 is, in itself, a waste of r/t time.
That whole paragraph of your post is about wasted r/t initiated by a pilot.
So, as I quoted at the beginning of my post, "If it don't need saying.... Don't say it!"
Us "ABC123 at G2" - A bit superfluous. We sit in a little room with 12 ft high glass windows and guess what, we can see you at G2!
The reason you are held there is so you don't interfere with the glide path signal. If it's possible to hold you at G1, then we'll instruct you to taxy to G1. So telling us you've reached G2 is, in itself, a waste of r/t time.
That whole paragraph of your post is about wasted r/t initiated by a pilot.So, as I quoted at the beginning of my post, "If it don't need saying.... Don't say it!"
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brain, you seem to be on a one man crusade against BRS. You ask if there is any superflous R/T in you transcript - as it is written down by your good self there is and it's akin to "where's our traffic" referred to in the original post on this thread.
Why did you introduce an unnecessary call at G2. I would refer you to my earlier post in this thread - controllers don't do things for no reason. And G2 is not there for no reason. I would hazard a guess that its proximity to the 09 glidepath means that it is there to protect the GP signal in certain circumstances like, oh, I don't know, maybe an aircraft is using the ILS. Maybe I'm wrong - but there will be a good reason why you were held there. And when you were able to continue to G1 I'm sure the controller wasted no time in clearing you to continue.
You want to know why you were told to hold short. It's because you were being given a departure clearance but you were not yet cleared to line-up. Maybe you understood this. Maybe you've never lined up on a runway without a clearance - but trust me, if you did, you wouldn't be the first.
Why don't you give BRS a break and try to understand why they do the things they do. Better still, though it pains me to say it, why don't you get on with flying your aeroplane and let the controllers do the stuff that they know about.
[Edited simply to say that Standard got there first - and hey, I was right about G2!]
Why did you introduce an unnecessary call at G2. I would refer you to my earlier post in this thread - controllers don't do things for no reason. And G2 is not there for no reason. I would hazard a guess that its proximity to the 09 glidepath means that it is there to protect the GP signal in certain circumstances like, oh, I don't know, maybe an aircraft is using the ILS. Maybe I'm wrong - but there will be a good reason why you were held there. And when you were able to continue to G1 I'm sure the controller wasted no time in clearing you to continue.
You want to know why you were told to hold short. It's because you were being given a departure clearance but you were not yet cleared to line-up. Maybe you understood this. Maybe you've never lined up on a runway without a clearance - but trust me, if you did, you wouldn't be the first.
Why don't you give BRS a break and try to understand why they do the things they do. Better still, though it pains me to say it, why don't you get on with flying your aeroplane and let the controllers do the stuff that they know about.
[Edited simply to say that Standard got there first - and hey, I was right about G2!]