"Where's our traffic"
StandupfortheUlstermen
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,182
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From: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
WBS - yep, we probably could resolve it over a coffee somewhere, but I don't see the point.
brain fade - every time you have asked a question (on any Anti-Bristol thread), I have answered it to the best of my abilities, this isn't some conspiracy to evade answers. Even other ATCO's from other units have answered some of your questions but you're still not satisfied. I'm beginning to think you're suffering from broken pencil syndrome............................pointless.
brain fade - every time you have asked a question (on any Anti-Bristol thread), I have answered it to the best of my abilities, this isn't some conspiracy to evade answers. Even other ATCO's from other units have answered some of your questions but you're still not satisfied. I'm beginning to think you're suffering from broken pencil syndrome............................pointless.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 206
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From: Sunny Scotland
i dont mind pilots asking where their traffic is when i'm not busy. What does annoy the hell out of me is when the pilot then questions my instruction because he thinks he can overtake the other or asks why he's slowing down and not the other guy.
Here's a tip if we think you can be no1 we'll bloody well put you no.1. if we don't we won't. Its not a popularity contest or a race it just a fact. If you are landing at the same airport as the one in front and we don't think you're going to overtake we will slow you down to maintain the gap or put you on a heading to engineer a gap and if we're not busy we may even explain that to you but please dont assume that because the r/t has gaps that we are doing this for the hell of it.
and as a final note, questioning my judgement as to the best way of controlling the aircraft in my sector at that moment is not going to increase the chances of my changing my mind.
Thanks for listening
Rant over
Here's a tip if we think you can be no1 we'll bloody well put you no.1. if we don't we won't. Its not a popularity contest or a race it just a fact. If you are landing at the same airport as the one in front and we don't think you're going to overtake we will slow you down to maintain the gap or put you on a heading to engineer a gap and if we're not busy we may even explain that to you but please dont assume that because the r/t has gaps that we are doing this for the hell of it.
and as a final note, questioning my judgement as to the best way of controlling the aircraft in my sector at that moment is not going to increase the chances of my changing my mind.
Thanks for listening
Rant over
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 587
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From: Planet Claire
Ayrprox
Can't speak for anyone else but the only time I ask what number we are is when I'm hoping we're no 1 so I can ask for a visual!
standard.
I prefer tea. i'll come and see you when I get the chance. Your'e right tho, it is a bit pointless asking you and I agree you've made the best job of trying to answer that you can. It's also plain that I still don't know why you do the silly warnings and I still don't know why you do the 'threshold elev' calls either. i shall seek enlightenment elsewhere but I'd have thought, since it's your practice, that you'd be well placed to know why you do it??
BF wrong again!
Evil J
I agree. It's a bit like being asked if you've remembered to put the wheels down.
Can't speak for anyone else but the only time I ask what number we are is when I'm hoping we're no 1 so I can ask for a visual!
standard.
I prefer tea. i'll come and see you when I get the chance. Your'e right tho, it is a bit pointless asking you and I agree you've made the best job of trying to answer that you can. It's also plain that I still don't know why you do the silly warnings and I still don't know why you do the 'threshold elev' calls either. i shall seek enlightenment elsewhere but I'd have thought, since it's your practice, that you'd be well placed to know why you do it??
BF wrong again!
Evil J
I agree. It's a bit like being asked if you've remembered to put the wheels down.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 836
Likes: 2
From: Costa del Swanwick
And even when you know where the traffic is on TCAS you STILL ask for further descent. eg "AAA123 approaching FL310 requesting lower"
"AAA123 maintain FL310 traffic just below you"
"Yes we've got it on TCAS"
Only happened a few times over the winter months but for Gods sake don't make a habit of it during the summer. Anyone who does will go right to the back of the queue.
"AAA123 maintain FL310 traffic just below you"
"Yes we've got it on TCAS"
Only happened a few times over the winter months but for Gods sake don't make a habit of it during the summer. Anyone who does will go right to the back of the queue.
Guest
Posts: n/a
OK, things have moved on a bit - but not necessarily for the better.
brain, you ask why the threshold elevation is put on the ATIS. Well, here goes my take on it again. BRS IS ON TOP OF A 600ft HILL. If a pilot gets something wrong there's every possibility that the aeroplane will make a dent in the side of the hill before the pilot gets a chance to spot his error. Whilst I respect your experience and professionalism, as Standard points out, not all pilots are as good as you and the belt and braces stuff is for their benefit. Be kind and put up with a bit more info than you need for the benefit of those less fortunate than yourself.
Oh, and
in the interests of brevity and good use of R/T time, why not say "ABC123 has the field in sight and happy to take a visual approach". This will save the controller having to guess why you're asking that question - that we've established is of little value - and clearly indicates your wishes.
Out.
brain, you ask why the threshold elevation is put on the ATIS. Well, here goes my take on it again. BRS IS ON TOP OF A 600ft HILL. If a pilot gets something wrong there's every possibility that the aeroplane will make a dent in the side of the hill before the pilot gets a chance to spot his error. Whilst I respect your experience and professionalism, as Standard points out, not all pilots are as good as you and the belt and braces stuff is for their benefit. Be kind and put up with a bit more info than you need for the benefit of those less fortunate than yourself.
Oh, and
Can't speak for anyone else but the only time I ask what number we are is when I'm hoping we're no 1 so I can ask for a visual!
Out.
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,924
Likes: 614
From: surfing, watching for sharks
250Kts posted
"And even when you know where the traffic is on TCAS you STILL ask for further descent. eg "AAA123 approaching FL310 requesting lower"
This came up here on the ATC section of the prune a number of months ago. I as a pilot would wait till obvious TCAS conflictions were gone until making a request. I was told by a controllers not to wait, as the sooner they know about my request, the sooner they can plan and act upon it. Just know your rant isn't shared by all your controller brethern.
"And even when you know where the traffic is on TCAS you STILL ask for further descent. eg "AAA123 approaching FL310 requesting lower"
This came up here on the ATC section of the prune a number of months ago. I as a pilot would wait till obvious TCAS conflictions were gone until making a request. I was told by a controllers not to wait, as the sooner they know about my request, the sooner they can plan and act upon it. Just know your rant isn't shared by all your controller brethern.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
This has been GREAT fun to watch <G>... Pilots are indeed for the most part a clueless bunch when it comes to ATC... I too am a pilot and I teach pilots, so the things that I hear in class is quite interesting. Then the comments after putting said pilots through radar simulator is also quite interesting... It ought to be a requirement...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
I'm Just A Lawnmower
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
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From: Over the hills and faraway
Just as controllers should be required to sit in the sim and run a practice QRH on an electrical fire to get an idea of what we are up against
Seriously, as has been said numerous times whenever debates like this crop up, pilot/ATCO liason should be positively encouraged by our respective employers. It is fine talking about it on Proon but nothing beats experiencing how the other half live in the flesh, as it were. We need regular fam flights. You guys need to plug in on sectors. Might just make us appreciate what the other is has to deal with.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,294
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From: UK
Hear hear Balix,
About time we got back into Fam flights and Pilots visits.
I was lucky a few years ago to go to Cranebank and sit in the simulator for several hours with a crew whilst they did there 6 monthly check. I did the ATC RT for them and observed as they went through numerous emergency drills. It was possibly the best emergency training I could have experienced.
I am hoping to set up simulator runs at Cardiff for locally based airline crews this year and I know other units do it as well. The more we understand each others jobs the better for us all.
About time we got back into Fam flights and Pilots visits.
I was lucky a few years ago to go to Cranebank and sit in the simulator for several hours with a crew whilst they did there 6 monthly check. I did the ATC RT for them and observed as they went through numerous emergency drills. It was possibly the best emergency training I could have experienced.
I am hoping to set up simulator runs at Cardiff for locally based airline crews this year and I know other units do it as well. The more we understand each others jobs the better for us all.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 987
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
As has been said earlier, when I get the R/T time, I will pass the reason for the vector and the relevant traffic to the pilot. More often than not, if I am vectoring I don't have time, and the only time I will pass traffic is when I want the aircraft involved to know about each other so as to adjust rates of climb and descent to try and avoid a superfluous RA.
Just a tip (especially to the Speedbird moron who flew into Abu Dhabi a while ago), if you are 6 NM behind and 30 Kts faster than the preceding traffic and you have 20 minutes to touchdown, yes you could get your nose in front at some point in your descent. BUT, I have a choice of slowing you and maybe giving you a little turn, and getting my ten (ie. an adjustment of 4 NM) and all the while being able to give unrestricted descent to both aircraft. The alternative (the preferred one for whinging "but we are faster than him, it's not fair" poms) is to restrict the following aircrafts descent, and push down the preceding traffic early, while I try and get the following traffic in front, then vector the crap and slam the brakes on the front aircraft, so I can get my ten (ie. an adjustment of 16 NM).
Bottom line, someone has to be number one and someone has to be number last. The world isn't out to get you if you are number last, and whether you understand why you are number last or not, you will still be number last. Moaning about where and why you are where you are in the sequence, will only succeed in you and your airline's fellow crew members, being number last all the more often.
Just a tip (especially to the Speedbird moron who flew into Abu Dhabi a while ago), if you are 6 NM behind and 30 Kts faster than the preceding traffic and you have 20 minutes to touchdown, yes you could get your nose in front at some point in your descent. BUT, I have a choice of slowing you and maybe giving you a little turn, and getting my ten (ie. an adjustment of 4 NM) and all the while being able to give unrestricted descent to both aircraft. The alternative (the preferred one for whinging "but we are faster than him, it's not fair" poms) is to restrict the following aircrafts descent, and push down the preceding traffic early, while I try and get the following traffic in front, then vector the crap and slam the brakes on the front aircraft, so I can get my ten (ie. an adjustment of 16 NM).
Bottom line, someone has to be number one and someone has to be number last. The world isn't out to get you if you are number last, and whether you understand why you are number last or not, you will still be number last. Moaning about where and why you are where you are in the sequence, will only succeed in you and your airline's fellow crew members, being number last all the more often.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
brain, you ask why the threshold elevation is put on the ATIS. Well, here goes my take on it again. BRS IS ON TOP OF A 600ft HILL. If a pilot gets something wrong there's every possibility that the aeroplane will make a dent in the side of the hill before the pilot gets a chance to spot his error.........
Pilots are very aware of what the airfield/threshold elevation is and these days the transmission of this information is no longer of any benefit.
If a pilot is making an instrument approach, they will make a missed approach at the DA/MDA. The airfield elevation or the passing of that information makes little difference because;
a) The most likey reason for hitting the hill is going below minima
b) The next most likely is not setting the correct QNH or QFE or worse still setting QNH and using an D/MDH i.e. flying into Bristol and trying to descend to 200ft AMSL on an ILS with QNH set.
In those cases knowing that the hill is 600ft high makes no difference because the pilot thinks they are above it.
It is ironic that the field elevation is not passed on departure when QNH is always used and things like 1000ft checks are made at 1000ft ASFC not AMSL.
We have a bug on our altimeter set to the airfield elevation prior to approach and prior to departure not to mention the fact that it is on every chart we have.
I can imaging the guy at Innsbruck saying in a very camp voice.....the runway elevation is xxxx and we have 6000ft hills here here and here and 10000ft hills there there and there now don't go catching your little bottom on any.
On the ILS protection - don't assume that just cause the pilot is visual that protection is no longer required - the aircraft may still be completing an autoland for training or currency or equipment check.
Regards,
DFC
PS British Midland sims in Stockley Park have had lots of guys over from West Drayton in the past and made return visits. I think that the only problem controllers had with it was that they had to do it on their own time.
Pilots are very aware of what the airfield/threshold elevation is and these days the transmission of this information is no longer of any benefit.
If a pilot is making an instrument approach, they will make a missed approach at the DA/MDA. The airfield elevation or the passing of that information makes little difference because;
a) The most likey reason for hitting the hill is going below minima
b) The next most likely is not setting the correct QNH or QFE or worse still setting QNH and using an D/MDH i.e. flying into Bristol and trying to descend to 200ft AMSL on an ILS with QNH set.
In those cases knowing that the hill is 600ft high makes no difference because the pilot thinks they are above it.
It is ironic that the field elevation is not passed on departure when QNH is always used and things like 1000ft checks are made at 1000ft ASFC not AMSL.
We have a bug on our altimeter set to the airfield elevation prior to approach and prior to departure not to mention the fact that it is on every chart we have.
I can imaging the guy at Innsbruck saying in a very camp voice.....the runway elevation is xxxx and we have 6000ft hills here here and here and 10000ft hills there there and there now don't go catching your little bottom on any.
On the ILS protection - don't assume that just cause the pilot is visual that protection is no longer required - the aircraft may still be completing an autoland for training or currency or equipment check.
Regards,
DFC
PS British Midland sims in Stockley Park have had lots of guys over from West Drayton in the past and made return visits. I think that the only problem controllers had with it was that they had to do it on their own time.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 136
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From: OK (it's okay)
Years ago I worked at Denver Center. We began using a metering program that assigned crossing times at fixes about 150 miles from the airport. We worked a "4 post", so the computer would look at traffic over Arizona, Utah, Nebraska and Kansas and set up the arrival order. As a result, the aircraft arriving from, say, the southeast might be "following" an aircraft from the northwest.
See how it works?
Frequently pilots, when slowed to meet a metering time, would ask, "Where's my traffic?" Try to explain to a guy in western Nebraska that his traffic is just east of Salt Lake City, Utah.
The better informed the pilot is, the more cooperative he'll be - usually - but some situations are too complicated to explain on frequency.
---
ATC 24/7
See how it works?
Frequently pilots, when slowed to meet a metering time, would ask, "Where's my traffic?" Try to explain to a guy in western Nebraska that his traffic is just east of Salt Lake City, Utah.
The better informed the pilot is, the more cooperative he'll be - usually - but some situations are too complicated to explain on frequency.
---
ATC 24/7
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 836
Likes: 2
From: Costa del Swanwick
Ah sorry West Coast, i hadn't realised that you need continuous descent because you now have an electrical fire. You only had to say.
Yes we do need fam flights just as we need you guys to visit the ATC units. But it doesn't change the fact that if I haven't got the required separation you ain't getting the clearance.
Yes we do need fam flights just as we need you guys to visit the ATC units. But it doesn't change the fact that if I haven't got the required separation you ain't getting the clearance.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
West Coast;
I agree, controllers should be able to find out MORE of what goes on on the other side... In fact, next week that is going to be one of the discussions that I have on the panel that I am on for Communicating for Safety. It ought to be an interesting discussion to say the least...
later
Scott
I agree, controllers should be able to find out MORE of what goes on on the other side... In fact, next week that is going to be one of the discussions that I have on the panel that I am on for Communicating for Safety. It ought to be an interesting discussion to say the least...
later
Scott
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Staffordshire
DFC,
As a mil controller at West Drayton, (recently passed NATS interview awaiting class 1 medical and security clearance) I would be really interested in visiting the British Midland simulator.
Do you have any contacts there or an email address I can go on.
PM me if you have.
Regards
Doody
As a mil controller at West Drayton, (recently passed NATS interview awaiting class 1 medical and security clearance) I would be really interested in visiting the British Midland simulator.
Do you have any contacts there or an email address I can go on.
PM me if you have.
Regards
Doody
