A positive approach to NERC and the future
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you, Janet.
Yes, the 9020 software was transferred to new hardware, the HCS, which will handle FDP (and RDP- anyone know?) for NERC. The NERC workstations gives us colour screens, the co-ordination tools and a twenty minute soft landing in the case of an HCS FLOP. Oh, and SIS, which I happen to think is the dog's b***x apart from minor tweaks.
In evidence, have you tried to do a route amendment or an AU in the Flight Data Editor and got the dots right first time? Also, never forget the mystic mantra, "NAS before NERC", there because the NERC workstations won't work properly without correct flight data in HCS.
Incidentally, I heard on not especially reliable authority that it was decided not to build a Swanwick FDP system because that would have put 'O' date back to 1998!
Pipkin
Yes, the 9020 software was transferred to new hardware, the HCS, which will handle FDP (and RDP- anyone know?) for NERC. The NERC workstations gives us colour screens, the co-ordination tools and a twenty minute soft landing in the case of an HCS FLOP. Oh, and SIS, which I happen to think is the dog's b***x apart from minor tweaks.
In evidence, have you tried to do a route amendment or an AU in the Flight Data Editor and got the dots right first time? Also, never forget the mystic mantra, "NAS before NERC", there because the NERC workstations won't work properly without correct flight data in HCS.
Incidentally, I heard on not especially reliable authority that it was decided not to build a Swanwick FDP system because that would have put 'O' date back to 1998!
Pipkin
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Janet;
Yup we took the D-side (planner) and took out the 20 X 20 tube and covered it up with strip bays. We also took the prime realestate in the middle and put a 15 inch monitor for a computer read out device (what a waste of space). What we wound up doing is covering up part of the monitor with another strip bay so that we would have enough strips where we need them.
BEX
As to how we did it. For those who did it the chicken way (Ft. Worth did) we had someone on the old sector monitoring everything that the new sector was doing and kept up strips and such just incase something went wrong (lots of overtime). We then brought over sectors one at a time and took our time. As centers started cutting over and didn't hear any horror stories, they started to go big bang. We still had someone back at the old sector, but we brought over one whole area at a time...
regards
Yup we took the D-side (planner) and took out the 20 X 20 tube and covered it up with strip bays. We also took the prime realestate in the middle and put a 15 inch monitor for a computer read out device (what a waste of space). What we wound up doing is covering up part of the monitor with another strip bay so that we would have enough strips where we need them.
BEX
As to how we did it. For those who did it the chicken way (Ft. Worth did) we had someone on the old sector monitoring everything that the new sector was doing and kept up strips and such just incase something went wrong (lots of overtime). We then brought over sectors one at a time and took our time. As centers started cutting over and didn't hear any horror stories, they started to go big bang. We still had someone back at the old sector, but we brought over one whole area at a time...
regards
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winchester.Hants.England
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dinosaur.............
While I was at NERC yesterday I asked the question for you.
Reply:
"It's all or nothing.....the switch will be thrown at midnight and away we go. No ramp up, no sector by sector"
Regards
FBW
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]
What happens on the day? I think there is one view that the watch on duty drive to Swanwick rather then LATCC, and perform their duties as usual. OTOH, I've seen mention of various ramp-up approaches (e.g., load restrictions, moving just a few sectors to NERC to start). What's the real plan? Is there a way to soften the impact of the transition
Reply:
"It's all or nothing.....the switch will be thrown at midnight and away we go. No ramp up, no sector by sector"
Regards
FBW
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FBW, thanks for the research.
That's one answer, I guess. Possibly a good one: Certainly the simplest. You can argue that any half-way strategy runs the risk of complicating matters unnecessarily.
But if we do it that way, we'd better have a good answer to question #2: What happens when something goes wrong? Is LATCC backing up NERC? How do we switch to them? Who decides? How do we switch back again?
Short of that, what other responses to less-than-complete outages are available? Who decides?
That's one answer, I guess. Possibly a good one: Certainly the simplest. You can argue that any half-way strategy runs the risk of complicating matters unnecessarily.
But if we do it that way, we'd better have a good answer to question #2: What happens when something goes wrong? Is LATCC backing up NERC? How do we switch to them? Who decides? How do we switch back again?
Short of that, what other responses to less-than-complete outages are available? Who decides?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hades
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The pseudopilots are worried about what they are going to do come O date. We are going to need strip-bashing floorwalkers - slot them in there."
The problem with that is the blippys though. If they dish out strips like they drive their blips then we're in REAL trouble!
The problem with that is the blippys though. If they dish out strips like they drive their blips then we're in REAL trouble!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For what its worth here's my message to TAG;
As many have said before, PLEASE stop listening to management and start listening to all of us at ground zero (that includes controllers, assistants engineers etc). You may not like what you hear, but at least you will get the full truth and not some pc-management speak. We all want to do our jobs in the SAFEST way, it may not be the easiest or cheapest way, but safety must NEVER come at any price and only those who do the job NOW (not managers who used to do it 10 or 15 years ago) know how this is best achieved.
By listening and accepting what we say, you will not only get the best advice possible, but you will be amazed at the improvement in staff relations - something that has been utterly destroyed by the previous management.
The other thing I would like to see changed is the "Cutting costs for the sake of it" syndrome that pervades the management of Nats. A shift rarely passes without hearing of some new idea to eliminate this or that based solely on its cost. For example, one of the latest wheeze's is to do away with everyones personal Mats 1 and only have a few available on unit, now before we get into the merits, or not, of such an idea, the most worrying thing is that it has been presented to the staff almost as a fait accompli. We are told that this "will happen" and we are then left to argue the point. Surely, when SAFETY is our priority, then some sort of safety case/analysis etc should be carried out before any decision is made - especially one where we, the staff, are involved, not just the budget worriers.
My point is this, although any wheeze may delight the bean counters (bean counters = unit managers), surely as it will affect the staff, we should be consulted before hand and work with management and not have to fight all the time, which only serves to increase bad feeling and lower morale.
Well rant over, will we see any changes? not untill we get some honest, straight-forward people in senior positions.
As many have said before, PLEASE stop listening to management and start listening to all of us at ground zero (that includes controllers, assistants engineers etc). You may not like what you hear, but at least you will get the full truth and not some pc-management speak. We all want to do our jobs in the SAFEST way, it may not be the easiest or cheapest way, but safety must NEVER come at any price and only those who do the job NOW (not managers who used to do it 10 or 15 years ago) know how this is best achieved.
By listening and accepting what we say, you will not only get the best advice possible, but you will be amazed at the improvement in staff relations - something that has been utterly destroyed by the previous management.
The other thing I would like to see changed is the "Cutting costs for the sake of it" syndrome that pervades the management of Nats. A shift rarely passes without hearing of some new idea to eliminate this or that based solely on its cost. For example, one of the latest wheeze's is to do away with everyones personal Mats 1 and only have a few available on unit, now before we get into the merits, or not, of such an idea, the most worrying thing is that it has been presented to the staff almost as a fait accompli. We are told that this "will happen" and we are then left to argue the point. Surely, when SAFETY is our priority, then some sort of safety case/analysis etc should be carried out before any decision is made - especially one where we, the staff, are involved, not just the budget worriers.
My point is this, although any wheeze may delight the bean counters (bean counters = unit managers), surely as it will affect the staff, we should be consulted before hand and work with management and not have to fight all the time, which only serves to increase bad feeling and lower morale.
Well rant over, will we see any changes? not untill we get some honest, straight-forward people in senior positions.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wonky Vectors...
Thank you for that, it brings the thread nicely back to what I had originally hoped for. There seems to be a clear message emerging, can you see it TAG???
As for cost cutting for the sake of it, I completely agree with your sentiments. Here's suggestion though, re the MATS pt1. How about putting it on a CD ROM (perhaps it's already available?) This turns the individual document cost into pennies which would please the bean counters, and there is no excuse for being out of date, you just need to have the currentCD. You could even colour code it, each ammendment having it's own colour. There really would be NO excuse then.
Any more....
Rgds BEX
Thank you for that, it brings the thread nicely back to what I had originally hoped for. There seems to be a clear message emerging, can you see it TAG???
As for cost cutting for the sake of it, I completely agree with your sentiments. Here's suggestion though, re the MATS pt1. How about putting it on a CD ROM (perhaps it's already available?) This turns the individual document cost into pennies which would please the bean counters, and there is no excuse for being out of date, you just need to have the currentCD. You could even colour code it, each ammendment having it's own colour. There really would be NO excuse then.
Any more....
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hades
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"monkfish, get a life then try for another job, we really need gits like you, tart."
Notice the "smiles" in my post did you?
Lighten up you berk. And as for me getting a life, I have one thankyou, unlike yourself who obviously has nowt better to do than sit on the internet all day. (100-249 posts?! You must be bored!)
Notice the "smiles" in my post did you?
Lighten up you berk. And as for me getting a life, I have one thankyou, unlike yourself who obviously has nowt better to do than sit on the internet all day. (100-249 posts?! You must be bored!)
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting the advice of the staff at the pointy end is a good recommendation. But. During the late unlamented Advanced Automation Program I watched some of that happen. A group of controllers met with the contractor and provided human factors input to color of screens, trackball feel, etc. Fine. A couple months later the controller human factors input was provided again, by a slightly different group of controllers and guess what...it was for different colors, different trackball etc. The contractor loved it all the way to the bank.
What was interesting seeing this was that the controllers were playing engineer. And when I watched the design meetings between the governemnt and contractor engineers the engineers played controller. This was not the first or last time I had seen it but it seems to be a common phenomenon (sp?). Just think what could happen if a few controllers and engineers got together and the controllers were controllers and the engineers were engineers? Believe that is what happens on some successful programs maybe?
What was interesting seeing this was that the controllers were playing engineer. And when I watched the design meetings between the governemnt and contractor engineers the engineers played controller. This was not the first or last time I had seen it but it seems to be a common phenomenon (sp?). Just think what could happen if a few controllers and engineers got together and the controllers were controllers and the engineers were engineers? Believe that is what happens on some successful programs maybe?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd just like to re-emphasise Wonky Vectors' statement to TAG :-
TAG - I HOPE YOUR EYES ARE BEING OPENED TO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THIS COMPANY.
IT IS SHORT STAFFED, AND MORALE IS LOW.
SADLY THERE IS NO SHORT TERM ANSWER TO THIS, BUT IT WOULD BE A START (AS THIS THREAD IS TRYING TO HIGHLIGHT) TO TRY AND INCREASE MORALE, EVEN IF NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT THE STAFFING PROBLEM.
Edited because of stupidity
[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: It's a Joke ]
TAG - I HOPE YOUR EYES ARE BEING OPENED TO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THIS COMPANY.
IT IS SHORT STAFFED, AND MORALE IS LOW.
SADLY THERE IS NO SHORT TERM ANSWER TO THIS, BUT IT WOULD BE A START (AS THIS THREAD IS TRYING TO HIGHLIGHT) TO TRY AND INCREASE MORALE, EVEN IF NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT THE STAFFING PROBLEM.
Edited because of stupidity
[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: It's a Joke ]
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Free coffee for a week from the vend as we didn't get near the delays target-what bigger boost to morale do you want?
We really must try harder to reduce the delays and then the freebies may be extended to the chocolate machines as well
We really must try harder to reduce the delays and then the freebies may be extended to the chocolate machines as well
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roger Out..
Yes you're right of course, not everybody has a PC or even access to one. Then again, isn't a prerequisite of many degree courses now that you have a PC? Many Uni's and higher education authorities do offer loan machines. Perhaps students should be "encouraged" to get one (with NATS help) before starting at CATC.
NATS has basic PC's spare at most units. All they have to be able to do is run AcroBat reader and be attached to a cheapo printer.
As for the preference for reading from a book rather than a screen, well I haven't read too many novels off a PC tube either, a paperback makes far more sense. I guess you could always print out the pages you actually need, nobody uses the whole book at once and if it's just for reference then surely a CD ROM is ideal.
Another solution is one I think they used to use in Canada. Documents like the AIP were printed on really cheap low quality recycled paper every month. They were amended weekly by sticking a gummed "changes" page on the front, and monthly by binning the whole thing and picking up the latest version, again on cheap low quality recycled paper.
Rgds BEX
Yes you're right of course, not everybody has a PC or even access to one. Then again, isn't a prerequisite of many degree courses now that you have a PC? Many Uni's and higher education authorities do offer loan machines. Perhaps students should be "encouraged" to get one (with NATS help) before starting at CATC.
NATS has basic PC's spare at most units. All they have to be able to do is run AcroBat reader and be attached to a cheapo printer.
As for the preference for reading from a book rather than a screen, well I haven't read too many novels off a PC tube either, a paperback makes far more sense. I guess you could always print out the pages you actually need, nobody uses the whole book at once and if it's just for reference then surely a CD ROM is ideal.
Another solution is one I think they used to use in Canada. Documents like the AIP were printed on really cheap low quality recycled paper every month. They were amended weekly by sticking a gummed "changes" page on the front, and monthly by binning the whole thing and picking up the latest version, again on cheap low quality recycled paper.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
monkfish, as much as I'd like to, I'm not gonna get into a slanging match with you, this isn't the place, and definately not the thread. However this also shows just how ATCO's do jump at anything and try to make something out of it, obviously in this case, ME. We all seem to get very tetchy on the smallest of things, just showing how stressed out we are all getting, not a good thing in our industry. Any little minor thing becomes a big arguement, be it work, pleasure, or just plain chat. We are all piddled off and want to take our stress out on the first thing that moves, why??? I think we all know why.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We too found out a long time ago that we as controllers don't need to get into the how too or the human factors stuff. What we found that worked was to work with the engineers to make sure that what they were building was something that we could use and told them HOW we used it.
As for the Human Factors stuff. What we did was tell the FAA that they had to bring in the human factors scientists when we were working with the engineers. Then we could give our input on improvements that we would like to see and the Human Factors folks would say were things should be placed as well as what color it should be... It works out well that way...
regards
As for the Human Factors stuff. What we did was tell the FAA that they had to bring in the human factors scientists when we were working with the engineers. Then we could give our input on improvements that we would like to see and the Human Factors folks would say were things should be placed as well as what color it should be... It works out well that way...
regards
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London and the South Coast
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And this is exactly why Swan-wick is in such a cra$$y state. Masses of engineer driven design with "ah - but we know what they REALLY want" with little, no, or totally ineffective ATC involvement. Take a look at the VAKO/MEP panels at LATCC to fully understand waht happens when engineers and ATC don't talk to each other. This is occasionally the fault of individual engineers and ATCO's due to the continuing "us and them" attitude. After all, that engineer with a first in electronics is only "TELS" - eh?
Its good to talk...........
Its good to talk...........
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just saw some information in a FAA Human Factors news letter yesterday and guess what... they are planning to do some work on electronic flight strips in fiscal year 02 (October 2001-September 2002). Talk about staying ahead of the game!
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Southampton
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great Unmanaged
I know that your just a tease, but as others may be reading this unaware of your sense of humour, I must point out that NERC as you know it is the product of some of the best respected, innovative and intelligent ATCOs NATS has. The engineers - as far as ATCO/ATSA stuff - are generally implementing their vision as amended by a similarly good bunch of subcontractors. Hopefully TAG will one day ask all those involved to detail where it all went slightly wonky between concept and reality.
Leaders.....found this link for those interested regarding IT project failures
http://www.silicon.com/p46735
I know that your just a tease, but as others may be reading this unaware of your sense of humour, I must point out that NERC as you know it is the product of some of the best respected, innovative and intelligent ATCOs NATS has. The engineers - as far as ATCO/ATSA stuff - are generally implementing their vision as amended by a similarly good bunch of subcontractors. Hopefully TAG will one day ask all those involved to detail where it all went slightly wonky between concept and reality.
Leaders.....found this link for those interested regarding IT project failures
http://www.silicon.com/p46735
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London and the South Coast
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Piglet,
Agreed, now but. What about the first ten years of the peoject? Did ATCO's specify the colours that are being used - everywhere.
Did ATCO's specify the electronic strip design / font sizes? I think not. The guys involved now are pretty excellent but will it all actually work or, as many on these threads state, will it be a pile of poo? Now that yer actual pukka controlling type ATCO's have been let lose on it.
If it does end up as the latter that may be due in a major way to the way that the project was managed for a very long time.
I am happy that my teasing sense of humour is appreciated.
I have just been told that some very strange things happen when the iron brain does a startover (they stop talking to each other). Seek and ye shall find.
Agreed, now but. What about the first ten years of the peoject? Did ATCO's specify the colours that are being used - everywhere.
Did ATCO's specify the electronic strip design / font sizes? I think not. The guys involved now are pretty excellent but will it all actually work or, as many on these threads state, will it be a pile of poo? Now that yer actual pukka controlling type ATCO's have been let lose on it.
If it does end up as the latter that may be due in a major way to the way that the project was managed for a very long time.
I am happy that my teasing sense of humour is appreciated.
I have just been told that some very strange things happen when the iron brain does a startover (they stop talking to each other). Seek and ye shall find.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: GB
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hiya GU (sounds like a clinic I once frequented)
I asked who agreed all the stuff you mention as I'm quite partial to thinking that I could do better. In essence it could be argued that the ATC people of yesteryear did specify such fundamental parts of the user interface. Ask the current guys and they'll tell you who to blame, or, ask why they did what they did.
I think that the biggest problem was that a Sony tube is only so large and if the stuff on the screen like flight data was made bigger there was no room for the radar stuff. Naturally I asked the obvious questions about why not have a second screen and so on but it appears that it's all about compromise. Never a popular thing, that. I can't be particularly positive about the colours so as I can't say anything nice, I won't say anything at all.
J
I asked who agreed all the stuff you mention as I'm quite partial to thinking that I could do better. In essence it could be argued that the ATC people of yesteryear did specify such fundamental parts of the user interface. Ask the current guys and they'll tell you who to blame, or, ask why they did what they did.
I think that the biggest problem was that a Sony tube is only so large and if the stuff on the screen like flight data was made bigger there was no room for the radar stuff. Naturally I asked the obvious questions about why not have a second screen and so on but it appears that it's all about compromise. Never a popular thing, that. I can't be particularly positive about the colours so as I can't say anything nice, I won't say anything at all.
J