A positive approach to NERC and the future
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Great Unmanaged -
Agreed, now but. What about the first ten years of the peoject? Did ATCO's specify the colours that are being used - everywhere. YES they did
Did ATCO's specify the electronic strip design / font sizes? I think not. YES they did
Agreed, now but. What about the first ten years of the peoject? Did ATCO's specify the colours that are being used - everywhere. YES they did
Did ATCO's specify the electronic strip design / font sizes? I think not. YES they did
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Janet;
Our system was actually going to have two 20X20 main display monitors. One on the radar position and the other on the assistant or D-side as we call them here. Planner is what I think that you call them. The radar had one for radar display and then all of the flight data info was on the d-side display.
Right now we are putting a bit more flight data info on the R-side display with a new software drop that we are putting into use right now. There is also an aux. display that we are putting into use in two centers called URET which is a conflict probe that also displays a LOT of info... There is another one that NASA is working with called Direct too, that also is a conflict probe... Lots of interesting stuff that is going to be getting fielded here in the next couple of years. Not to mention the testing of Data Link which will have some display stuff in a fourth line of the data block...
Did you get the info that I tried to send you earlier?
regards
Our system was actually going to have two 20X20 main display monitors. One on the radar position and the other on the assistant or D-side as we call them here. Planner is what I think that you call them. The radar had one for radar display and then all of the flight data info was on the d-side display.
Right now we are putting a bit more flight data info on the R-side display with a new software drop that we are putting into use right now. There is also an aux. display that we are putting into use in two centers called URET which is a conflict probe that also displays a LOT of info... There is another one that NASA is working with called Direct too, that also is a conflict probe... Lots of interesting stuff that is going to be getting fielded here in the next couple of years. Not to mention the testing of Data Link which will have some display stuff in a fourth line of the data block...
Did you get the info that I tried to send you earlier?
regards
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Findo.
Wrong! The radar colours were decided by the Royal College of ART (YES - ART). The strip font sizes may have been chosen by an ATCO (wearing X ray specs) but the idiot that said the size should not be changable? Come on.
Wrong! The radar colours were decided by the Royal College of ART (YES - ART). The strip font sizes may have been chosen by an ATCO (wearing X ray specs) but the idiot that said the size should not be changable? Come on.
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Just beaten to it bt GU, but I was involved in the DSS and MSS trials in the 90`s. The single most common complaint from us operational ATCO`s was the colours used were very rubbish. Yes they were chosen by the Royal College of Art !! Apparently they are more reliable than the bolshy ATCO who is against any change. We were constantly told not to worry because the displays we were using were " not NERC like "
I dont recall the Font size being a problem at the time, but my eyes are now 10 years older, have they been changed? Who knows. But even my 350 Mhz PC has dozens of different font sizes, types etc, surely it is not rocket science to have the same feature at NERC. One has to ask whether the NTT mentioned these problems and were ignored.
If managers refuse to believe what we tell them, but believe Artists, what hope have we got? Why some of the senior managers of the project are still involved beggars belief. Over to you TAG.
I dont recall the Font size being a problem at the time, but my eyes are now 10 years older, have they been changed? Who knows. But even my 350 Mhz PC has dozens of different font sizes, types etc, surely it is not rocket science to have the same feature at NERC. One has to ask whether the NTT mentioned these problems and were ignored.
If managers refuse to believe what we tell them, but believe Artists, what hope have we got? Why some of the senior managers of the project are still involved beggars belief. Over to you TAG.
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The fonts are NOT rocket science... Just have your suits tell LMART that you want the same software update that they did for DSR so that you have the different font sizes. Our suits told us too that that can't be done you can have this or that... We walked out of the meeting telling them that since they weren't bargaining in good faith the meeting must be over. When asked where we were going ( a collective we, I wasn't there)we just replied to the press... When the reporter that we had talked with called the FAA for their take on the story, the front office got wind and all of a sudden we were called back to the table. Oh you mean THOSE fonts and such <G>...
regards
regards
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Hi Janet 301
Re your concerns related to putting too much on a single screen. I had the same concern some five or six years ago. I considered that putting opaque windows over my radar data was "not good" and making my radar display smaller because of these additional windows meant that I would have to control using a magnifying glass at arms length. I have been bleating on since then about transparent/translucent windows under which you can see your traffic. Not only that but you can address your traffic through an active window. If you are at ATC Maastricht in Feb 2002, come to stand No345 just opposite NATS and I'll show this windowing system plus the 3D mouse. I believe that the FAA DSR programme may well be getting some of this functionality.
Doug
Re your concerns related to putting too much on a single screen. I had the same concern some five or six years ago. I considered that putting opaque windows over my radar data was "not good" and making my radar display smaller because of these additional windows meant that I would have to control using a magnifying glass at arms length. I have been bleating on since then about transparent/translucent windows under which you can see your traffic. Not only that but you can address your traffic through an active window. If you are at ATC Maastricht in Feb 2002, come to stand No345 just opposite NATS and I'll show this windowing system plus the 3D mouse. I believe that the FAA DSR programme may well be getting some of this functionality.
Doug
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Douglas;
DSR has had the ability to have either opaque or transparent windows or menus since we went operational with it a couple of years ago... We are adding some items to it though. We are expanding the ability to read out multiple flight plans on the Radar side as well as adding some range functions tied to the data block...
regards
DSR has had the ability to have either opaque or transparent windows or menus since we went operational with it a couple of years ago... We are adding some items to it though. We are expanding the ability to read out multiple flight plans on the Radar side as well as adding some range functions tied to the data block...
regards
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Hi Scott
Yes, I was aware of the transparency functions that you had. I am now working on the "through addressing" for the mouse cursor. It is cracked by using an invisible layer with invisible objects. I don't have the complete update re the DSR replacement, but I believe that you have been using a Canadian graphics company recently - if so, then you will have that invisible function. I have also used the transparency for weather returns and that has been well received for APP.
I haven't got around to the web site but if you look at the Euro web site you'll see an example of transparency and through addressing.
Doug
Yes, I was aware of the transparency functions that you had. I am now working on the "through addressing" for the mouse cursor. It is cracked by using an invisible layer with invisible objects. I don't have the complete update re the DSR replacement, but I believe that you have been using a Canadian graphics company recently - if so, then you will have that invisible function. I have also used the transparency for weather returns and that has been well received for APP.
I haven't got around to the web site but if you look at the Euro web site you'll see an example of transparency and through addressing.
Doug
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The hardware for the Advanced Automation System was the Sony 20" square displays. The old paperwork is packed up/gone but as I recall they were really sate of the art for 15 years ago. The resolution of the display (dot pitch) was similar to or a little better than what you will find on PC screens today, as is the color capabilities. The first tubes for the first workstations came from Japan and cost the earth, but Sony set up a plant in California to build them.
What struck me at the time was that the specifications were not very sophisticated and weren't requiring anything very advanced other than the size of the tube (and it's still a really big tube). Previous human factors work I had seen on the U.S. Navy E-2C aircraft (imagine a flying TRACON run by 3 controllers) had done a much much better job...and no, I don't think E-2Cs have flight strips or flight strip printers.
As Scottsays ther ewas an atmosphere of we want it this way in the program office and nobody was allowed to disagree too much and live to tell about it.
What struck me at the time was that the specifications were not very sophisticated and weren't requiring anything very advanced other than the size of the tube (and it's still a really big tube). Previous human factors work I had seen on the U.S. Navy E-2C aircraft (imagine a flying TRACON run by 3 controllers) had done a much much better job...and no, I don't think E-2Cs have flight strips or flight strip printers.
As Scottsays ther ewas an atmosphere of we want it this way in the program office and nobody was allowed to disagree too much and live to tell about it.
More than just an ATCO
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Bex, and others
At Maastricht we put a lot of the info on a CD Rom and for a while it was rumoured that management were going to spring for a laptop for all the Ops staff so that we could complete the training at our own speed and in our own time. Unfortunately a couple of the bean counters ( The same duck-heads who now calculate our annual leave in MINUTES!!!!!) objected, so we were paid 4 days extra salary to complete this and the RVSM training in our own time.
A number of controllers were involved in the project from an early stage - but not early enough as we were repeatedly told that tranparent windows and other desireables were impossible - I was once at a meeting where we raised the requirement that it be possible to plug in a mouse on the left hand side of a console to accomodate training and south paws. Airsys's (or whatever the name was that week) "Immediate response, "Impossible, too complicated, too expensive!"
Our answer, "Connections to the bus-bar and a cost of about £5 per console for about 110 consoles. We will do it and absorb the cost."
The contracter wanted to defer the decision and call an extra meeting with the same participants (flown in from Cwmbraan, Munich, Paris, Brussels etc. at great expense)
Another case; I was tasked to recommend which mouse should be selected - obviously the prime requirement in our environment is reliability - so a standard test was devised to ascertain this with the accuracy of the mouse tested after each stage.
1) the mouse wass held in the left hand, the cable looped round the right hand and a good tug given. From memory three gave up the ghost at this stage.
2) The mouse was placed on the floor and the AIP dropped on it from shoulder height. A couple more fell off the perch.
3) the mouse was dunked in a cup of coffee and then rolled through an ashtray. None passed this.
So which one did we get? The cheapest.
Sorry for rambling on - it must be the medicine - but as you see you are not alone. The difference between NERC and the rest of the world is that your management has made it into a very high profile project and is now reaping the harvest of that decision.
Elsewhere there has been a tendency not to shout too loudly until the system is up and running.
BTW anyone remember Fag Ash Lil in the LATCC canteen? Her ghost lives on here. I had a "Healthy, i.e. salad, sandwich" here 2 days ago and have had one end firmly glued to the toilet and the other in the shower for most of the last 48 hours.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: Lon More ]
At Maastricht we put a lot of the info on a CD Rom and for a while it was rumoured that management were going to spring for a laptop for all the Ops staff so that we could complete the training at our own speed and in our own time. Unfortunately a couple of the bean counters ( The same duck-heads who now calculate our annual leave in MINUTES!!!!!) objected, so we were paid 4 days extra salary to complete this and the RVSM training in our own time.
A number of controllers were involved in the project from an early stage - but not early enough as we were repeatedly told that tranparent windows and other desireables were impossible - I was once at a meeting where we raised the requirement that it be possible to plug in a mouse on the left hand side of a console to accomodate training and south paws. Airsys's (or whatever the name was that week) "Immediate response, "Impossible, too complicated, too expensive!"
Our answer, "Connections to the bus-bar and a cost of about £5 per console for about 110 consoles. We will do it and absorb the cost."
The contracter wanted to defer the decision and call an extra meeting with the same participants (flown in from Cwmbraan, Munich, Paris, Brussels etc. at great expense)
Another case; I was tasked to recommend which mouse should be selected - obviously the prime requirement in our environment is reliability - so a standard test was devised to ascertain this with the accuracy of the mouse tested after each stage.
1) the mouse wass held in the left hand, the cable looped round the right hand and a good tug given. From memory three gave up the ghost at this stage.
2) The mouse was placed on the floor and the AIP dropped on it from shoulder height. A couple more fell off the perch.
3) the mouse was dunked in a cup of coffee and then rolled through an ashtray. None passed this.
So which one did we get? The cheapest.
Sorry for rambling on - it must be the medicine - but as you see you are not alone. The difference between NERC and the rest of the world is that your management has made it into a very high profile project and is now reaping the harvest of that decision.
Elsewhere there has been a tendency not to shout too loudly until the system is up and running.
BTW anyone remember Fag Ash Lil in the LATCC canteen? Her ghost lives on here. I had a "Healthy, i.e. salad, sandwich" here 2 days ago and have had one end firmly glued to the toilet and the other in the shower for most of the last 48 hours.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: Lon More ]
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Lon More
An excellent tale. Your mouse experience is an exact parallel of the NERC one. So I guess the need to have some sort of 'trial' outweighs the need to procure the best item for the job is an industry standard!
Shouldn't you be reporting your sickness time in minutes, not hours? Hope you feel better soon!
An excellent tale. Your mouse experience is an exact parallel of the NERC one. So I guess the need to have some sort of 'trial' outweighs the need to procure the best item for the job is an industry standard!
Shouldn't you be reporting your sickness time in minutes, not hours? Hope you feel better soon!
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Transparent windows were achieved five years ago on operationally available software, if you had been to ATC Maastricht since then you would have seen them being demonstrated each year, including this next one where you will also see addressing through an active window. Been there, done that, next problem!!
More than just an ATCO
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Douglas,
Look at my location: as you said, "Been there, ....."
I KNOW the problem can be solved, howver at the time the contractor persuaded management, not a million miles away from you, that it could not be done.
It is relatively easy to constantly update the design, however at some stage the development has to stop or it will never become operational.
Look at my location: as you said, "Been there, ....."
I KNOW the problem can be solved, howver at the time the contractor persuaded management, not a million miles away from you, that it could not be done.
It is relatively easy to constantly update the design, however at some stage the development has to stop or it will never become operational.
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Guys,
This is becoming a fascinating discussion about the world of futuristic ATC. Forgive me for asking but what on earth has that got to do with NERC? What Bexil asked was how we can extricate ourselves from the mess that NATS management has got us into. They are all still there by the way. Not one removal so far. As there is absolutely no chance of them starting to listen to us now then our only hope is the new blood brought in by TAG.
If we could keep the thread simple and preferably without Mr Spragg's advertising (Hi Doug, remember me) with real solutions which might save a little face for the top neddies and a lot of grief from the coal face guys and gals then I think we might get somewhere.
So, Mr Moderator (or is it Mrs?) if you agree with me could you edit the thread a little and put the non NERC stuff elsewhere?
Z
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: ZIP250 ]
This is becoming a fascinating discussion about the world of futuristic ATC. Forgive me for asking but what on earth has that got to do with NERC? What Bexil asked was how we can extricate ourselves from the mess that NATS management has got us into. They are all still there by the way. Not one removal so far. As there is absolutely no chance of them starting to listen to us now then our only hope is the new blood brought in by TAG.
If we could keep the thread simple and preferably without Mr Spragg's advertising (Hi Doug, remember me) with real solutions which might save a little face for the top neddies and a lot of grief from the coal face guys and gals then I think we might get somewhere.
So, Mr Moderator (or is it Mrs?) if you agree with me could you edit the thread a little and put the non NERC stuff elsewhere?
Z
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: ZIP250 ]
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OK point taken – Sorreeee! Back to the main subject. A lot will depend upon the attitude of everybody during the first few critical days of operation. I believe that there will need to be some form of watch technical team to focus and collect ideas and suggestions related to early modifications to the system. Here I mean that the system comprises the hardware/software/peopleware/paperware. Change can be made in some areas relatively simply, in others with difficulty. What can be modified? Well things like procedures – are the proposed and current procedures actually finely tuned to the new system especially since there has been no practical operational experience so far. During the first few weeks I am certain that questions and wishes will be expressed. How do they get aired with the authority of the watch keeping ATCO? Maybe through a technical group. What are the priorities to be for the upgrading of the system? I see that colour causes discussion – are you wanting to change the colours used? The easy thing is to edit the colour look up file, BUT the difficult thing is to have complete agreement on the colours to be used. I was fortunate to have been involved with several modernisations in Europe and the problems were the same – Welcome to the club!! I found that the best way to achieve acceptance was to encourage the ATCOs to discuss their problems between themselves and then air them openly once agreement had been achieved. Yes, it entails considerable work, but the prize was a workable system – not a perfect system, just workable. NERC at the moment is in Phase 1, the future phases must be driven by you. To achieve that, some form of operationally led discussion group will be necessary to draw all the ideas together for presentation in a coherent way to management. In a nutshell, organise a team of respected ATCOs, encourage positive open mindedness, identify priorities, collect ideas/complaints, present agreed issues to management for action.
It would appear that this forum item would form the foundation for the above.
A little PS for ZIP250, if you email me then I would recognise you. You have the advantage of me Sir!! As I retire at the end of the year, I use my real name.
I found that the best way to achieve acceptance was to encourage the ATCOs to discuss their problems between themselves and then air them openly once agreement had been achieved. Yes, it entails considerable work, but the prize was a workable system – not a perfect system, just workable. NERC at the moment is in Phase 1, the future phases must be driven by you. To achieve that, some form of operationally led discussion group will be necessary to draw all the ideas together for presentation in a coherent way to management. In a nutshell, organise a team of respected ATCOs, encourage positive open mindedness, identify priorities, collect ideas/complaints, present agreed issues to management for action.It would appear that this forum item would form the foundation for the above.
A little PS for ZIP250, if you email me then I would recognise you. You have the advantage of me Sir!! As I retire at the end of the year, I use my real name.
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Good to know everyone's having fun training down at NERC and raking in all that lovely loot (well some of you...), but can someone please tell me whether NERC will WERK and is the planned 'O' date realistic ?
I'm interested, of course, but then so are our "customers". For example, 2 B757s to TFS delayed by 1hr and 1hr 45mins, respectively, because of lack of staff on Hurn the other day. An A321 avoided the delays by routeing via LEMG.
It seems that some airlines, on some routes, are having to pay a very high price to get NERC up and running.
I think all of us want to be positive about NERC - providing it delivers.
p.s. Has a contingency plan been established in case NERC falls over - or is it really "that good" ?
I'm interested, of course, but then so are our "customers". For example, 2 B757s to TFS delayed by 1hr and 1hr 45mins, respectively, because of lack of staff on Hurn the other day. An A321 avoided the delays by routeing via LEMG.
It seems that some airlines, on some routes, are having to pay a very high price to get NERC up and running.
I think all of us want to be positive about NERC - providing it delivers.
p.s. Has a contingency plan been established in case NERC falls over - or is it really "that good" ?
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Been out of the real world for a few days so couple of points here relate to posts of recent weeks.
I well remember the MSS at Bournemouth. Very first one I did had superb dark BLUE display with light blue Data Blocks. Fabulous contrast for the tactical. Can't remember any legibility problems as a planner but then eyesight 7 years ago was a bit better!!Then it all went GREY and downhill from then on.
Tinkering with the fonts recently has had a marginal improvement, although I understand now that certain windows have to be capital letters now or the bottom of g's, y's etc just disappear. That's good then.
Main safety issue has to be the primary database, the Paper Strips, that has the very real potential to be dangerously inaccurate. As a planner's workload increases, so he/she has less time to service the electronic beast and the strip board. Probably 50% of NFL changes get missed. This of course assumes the strips are on the board and not stuck in the printer's tray waiting for the assistant to deliver them. The minimal time between offer, printing and aircraft calling is not too much of a problem in the simulator but wiil be when/if O Date arrives.
It is quite noticeable that amendments are taking considerably longer to be carried out at Nerc than at Latcc. If largely depends on whether the Atsa has been trained of Flight Plans and therefore has a working knowledge of routeings or if they have simply been the ' gopher ' on the wings whilst the SSA does all the tricky things.
That should annoy a few Atsa's, but that's how I see it I'm afraid.
Be positive was the thread.
I think the jury is still out
I well remember the MSS at Bournemouth. Very first one I did had superb dark BLUE display with light blue Data Blocks. Fabulous contrast for the tactical. Can't remember any legibility problems as a planner but then eyesight 7 years ago was a bit better!!Then it all went GREY and downhill from then on.
Tinkering with the fonts recently has had a marginal improvement, although I understand now that certain windows have to be capital letters now or the bottom of g's, y's etc just disappear. That's good then.
Main safety issue has to be the primary database, the Paper Strips, that has the very real potential to be dangerously inaccurate. As a planner's workload increases, so he/she has less time to service the electronic beast and the strip board. Probably 50% of NFL changes get missed. This of course assumes the strips are on the board and not stuck in the printer's tray waiting for the assistant to deliver them. The minimal time between offer, printing and aircraft calling is not too much of a problem in the simulator but wiil be when/if O Date arrives.
It is quite noticeable that amendments are taking considerably longer to be carried out at Nerc than at Latcc. If largely depends on whether the Atsa has been trained of Flight Plans and therefore has a working knowledge of routeings or if they have simply been the ' gopher ' on the wings whilst the SSA does all the tricky things.
That should annoy a few Atsa's, but that's how I see it I'm afraid.
Be positive was the thread.
I think the jury is still out
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...and so we return after a fascinating diversion to the original idea of the topic...
Actually I don't really mind, the discussion has thrown up a lot of useful info, and food for thought (anybody want to start another thread along the lines of "Where did it all go wrong?", be my guest)
But I digress...
Returning to NERC. I, among others (M40612 as well) have noticed that as soon as the ATSA, who is an integral part of the T,P and A team has to deal with something unusual, say an AU or re-route, his/her ability to deliver the strips is severely curtailed. Not their fault, nobody can be expected to do two things at once.
Possible solution. There are going to be A LOT of cadets (call them what you will, but you know who I mean) wandering around awaiting training. Why not use these people, who salary NATS is paying already, to back up the assistants when they get busy? It will help the assistant, taking the strip loading function off him/her, and you never know, the cadets might learn something useful about operational ATC.
Discuss...
Rgds BEX
Actually I don't really mind, the discussion has thrown up a lot of useful info, and food for thought (anybody want to start another thread along the lines of "Where did it all go wrong?", be my guest)
But I digress...
Returning to NERC. I, among others (M40612 as well) have noticed that as soon as the ATSA, who is an integral part of the T,P and A team has to deal with something unusual, say an AU or re-route, his/her ability to deliver the strips is severely curtailed. Not their fault, nobody can be expected to do two things at once.
Possible solution. There are going to be A LOT of cadets (call them what you will, but you know who I mean) wandering around awaiting training. Why not use these people, who salary NATS is paying already, to back up the assistants when they get busy? It will help the assistant, taking the strip loading function off him/her, and you never know, the cadets might learn something useful about operational ATC.
Discuss...
Rgds BEX