Cardiff-2

[TOM100]

I understand they must be trying to keep staffing low but they really don’t have daily ongoing maintenance and ppm that they can’t factor in changing lightbulbs ? I love the blind faith on these forums that CWL management will “do the right thing”. Not a facetious question but can anybody share with me any aspect of the CWL managements strategy to deal with C19 ? I know some elements, for example, of LHR, BRS, EDI, LGW (none of which are publicly owned)

Ref baggage performance, I don’t think 25 mins for first bag from Gate 3 to carousel is good (with one flight arriving on sched) - I personally don’t think that’s great and as I left I have no idea of time of last bag. For example LGW have a publicly (on their website) target criteria for last bag on belt within 35 mins - a huge airport with 000’s of gates !

If if people are prepared to accept this performance is OK then CWL will obviously continue to be a great traveller experience !

[PDXCWL45]

From what I'm told 25 mins is about right for a regional airport like Cardiff. I'm sure CWL management have plan and I expect eventually they'll present it to a Senedd committee in due time.

[VickersVicount]

Was reading about the new QR A321LXLRs wonder if they'd be good for eg EDI and CWL, although if we’re told they’re ‘all about cargo‘, maybe not as good a move as would be significantly less.

[ATNotts]

From what I'm told 25 mins is about right for a regional airport like Cardiff. I'm sure CWL management have plan and I expect eventually they'll present it to a Senedd committee in due time.
Which is why, if you've got hold bags the scrum to deplane first is completely pointless.

[TOM100]

The scrum now is to get to border control to show and get your PLF form checked without standing in a long queue lol 😂

[caaardiff]

I understand they must be trying to keep staffing low but they really don’t have daily ongoing maintenance and ppm that they can’t factor in changing lightbulbs ? I love the blind faith on these forums that CWL management will “do the right thing”. Not a facetious question but can anybody share with me any aspect of the CWL managements strategy to deal with C19 ? I know some elements, for example, of LHR, BRS, EDI, LGW (none of which are publicly owned)

Ref baggage performance, I don’t think 25 mins for first bag from Gate 3 to carousel is good (with one flight arriving on sched) - I personally don’t think that’s great and as I left I have no idea of time of last bag. For example LGW have a publicly (on their website) target criteria for last bag on belt within 35 mins - a huge airport with 000’s of gates !

If if people are prepared to accept this performance is OK then CWL will obviously continue to be a great traveller experience !

Here we go again. Did you apply for the ceo position? Sounds like you can run it better.

With regards to the baggage, have you considered social distancing may be a factor to longer offload times? The hold of an aircraft is a small confined space at the best of times.

[Link Kilo]

Was reading about the new QR A321LXLRs wonder if they'd be good for eg EDI and CWL, although if we’re told they’re ‘all about cargo‘, maybe not as good a move as would be significantly less.

Can you post a link to where you read that please as to the best of my knowledge they've ordered the LR not the XLR.

[OC37]

More urgent priorities, for the Welsh economy, and to assist in attracting inward investment, are decent multi-daily connections to 2 or 3 of Europe's major hub airports - AMS, FRA and one other I suggest.

For some years I was a regular, both business and leisure, traveller based in east Midlands and I soon came to recognise that my most convenient airport was BHX, not for direct services but for convenience, easy/cheap car parking, good road/rail connections, easy thru the terminal with normally time for a pint or two before departure.

But the number of people from the north that would drive straight past BHX down the M6, M5, M40 to the likes of LHR for their direct flights to wherever who simply didn't recognise that these destinations were available from the BHX airport they passed some two hours previously albeit via an intermediary hub such as AMS, CDG, CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH etc.

CWL will have a similar problem, let's say Mrs Jones asks where she can take a flight to Rome she is likely to receive a reply of BRS or LHR so off Mrs Jones is likely to toddle to BRS or LHR when CWL have up to 3 services daily to/from Rome via AMS, that is the problem and not likely to be one that shall go away anytime soon.

So at present, let's say a percentage of the travelling public travel to LHR, another percentage travel to BRS leaving only the percentage of smarter ones to realise that they can fly locally via that intermediary hub, I can't recall how the AMS route developed, if indeed it was KLM/NLM or Netherlines that started it but I recall at one stage it being combined with a BRS service utilising F27's, I recall direct services utilising SF340's then F27/F50's and a long way thereafter developing it to up to 3 x 80 (ish) daily jet services.

But bring in more European hub operators, as suggested FRA (Lufthansa) and CDG (Air France) seems to be a want then that modest percentage of the smarter ones flying from CWL are going to find themselves spoilt for choice and shall probably utilise the cheapest and most convenient intermediary hub operator, not only are KLM likely to lose passengers but what are the smallest aircraft types that these operators operate to develop and/or maintain a route these days with pretty much all of the lesser sized recognised airliners long since out of production.

What is needed is education by marketing, thereafter might come intermediary hub operations route development, it works very well from BHX so what have BHX done that CWL haven't done?

[marko1]

For some years I was a regular, both business and leisure, traveller based in east Midlands and I soon came to recognise that my most convenient airport was BHX, not for direct services but for convenience, easy/cheap car parking, good road/rail connections, easy thru the terminal with normally time for a pint or two before departure.

But the number of people from the north that would drive straight past BHX down the M6, M5, M40 to the likes of LHR for their direct flights to wherever who simply didn't recognise that these destinations were available from the BHX airport they passed some two hours previously albeit via an intermediary hub such as AMS, CDG, CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH etc.

CWL will have a similar problem, let's say Mrs Jones asks where she can take a flight to Rome she is likely to receive a reply of BRS or LHR so off Mrs Jones is likely to toddle to BRS or LHR when CWL have up to 3 services daily to/from Rome via AMS, that is the problem and not likely to be one that shall go away anytime soon.

So at present, let's say a percentage of the travelling public travel to LHR, another percentage travel to BRS leaving only the percentage of smarter ones to realise that they can fly locally via that intermediary hub, I can't recall how the AMS route developed, if indeed it was KLM/NLM or Netherlines that started it but I recall at one stage it being combined with a BRS service utilising F27's, I recall direct services utilising SF340's then F27/F50's and a long way thereafter developing it to up to 3 x 80 (ish) daily jet services.

But bring in more European hub operators, as suggested FRA (Lufthansa) and CDG (Air France) seems to be a want then that modest percentage of the smarter ones flying from CWL are going to find themselves spoilt for choice and shall probably utilise the cheapest and most convenient intermediary hub operator, not only are KLM likely to lose passengers but what are the smallest aircraft types that these operators operate to develop and/or maintain a route these days with pretty much all of the lesser sized recognised airliners long since out of production.

What is needed is education by marketing, thereafter might come intermediary hub operations route development, it works very well from BHX so what have BHX done that CWL haven't done?


if Bristol cannot keep Air France, lufthansa , sas or Brussels airlines , I very much doubt Cardiff could either. Cardiff’s best bet is attracting a regional carrier or two to serve point to point Scottish , Irish and french markets and bolster the existing Qatar and KLM services. The other two things Cardiff really could bolster is its leisure and cargo services. Holiday flights have always been successful from Cardiff and you have a nice long runway for cargo flights. Lots of advantages at Cardiff that Bristol would be desperate to have. Use those advantages and success will come. Leave the frankfurts etc for Bristol to battle with

[PDXCWL45]

Unless Cardiff attracts a based airline I'd say Scotland is off the list for now as loganair have made it pretty clear that they are not interested. Aer lingus should be the target for the return of the Irish routes and Air France HOP! for Paris. The other priority needs to be keeping TUI at 3 based aircraft for S21 and getting Ryanair to expand again.
As for cargo they need to invest in a cold store.

[caaardiff]

For some years I was a regular, both business and leisure, traveller based in east Midlands and I soon came to recognise that my most convenient airport was BHX, not for direct services but for convenience, easy/cheap car parking, good road/rail connections, easy thru the terminal with normally time for a pint or two before departure.

But the number of people from the north that would drive straight past BHX down the M6, M5, M40 to the likes of LHR for their direct flights to wherever who simply didn't recognise that these destinations were available from the BHX airport they passed some two hours previously albeit via an intermediary hub such as AMS, CDG, CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH etc.

CWL will have a similar problem, let's say Mrs Jones asks where she can take a flight to Rome she is likely to receive a reply of BRS or LHR so off Mrs Jones is likely to toddle to BRS or LHR when CWL have up to 3 services daily to/from Rome via AMS, that is the problem and not likely to be one that shall go away anytime soon.

So at present, let's say a percentage of the travelling public travel to LHR, another percentage travel to BRS leaving only the percentage of smarter ones to realise that they can fly locally via that intermediary hub, I can't recall how the AMS route developed, if indeed it was KLM/NLM or Netherlines that started it but I recall at one stage it being combined with a BRS service utilising F27's, I recall direct services utilising SF340's then F27/F50's and a long way thereafter developing it to up to 3 x 80 (ish) daily jet services.

But bring in more European hub operators, as suggested FRA (Lufthansa) and CDG (Air France) seems to be a want then that modest percentage of the smarter ones flying from CWL are going to find themselves spoilt for choice and shall probably utilise the cheapest and most convenient intermediary hub operator, not only are KLM likely to lose passengers but what are the smallest aircraft types that these operators operate to develop and/or maintain a route these days with pretty much all of the lesser sized recognised airliners long since out of production.

What is needed is education by marketing, thereafter might come intermediary hub operations route development, it works very well from BHX so what have BHX done that CWL haven't done?

Whilst I agree with your points to a degree, its not really that simple. Your average Mr or Mrs Jones would not want the hassle of transferring through a hub and taking 2 flights. They would rather the hassle of driving 1-2hrs down the M4 to BRS/LHR or up the M5 to BHX. To many its not even a hassle thats thought about anymore, its the norm.
Business people or regular flyers will be more open minded to hub Airports because they are used to flying. Your average leisure break passenger isn't, so wants the cheapest and quickest air route but will sacrifice land route to get it.

This is where I believe CWL massively missed the mark with Flybe. It offered good city options but people didn't know about them. In my eyes they weren't marketed well at all.
CWL needs to work on changing mindsets and shouting from the rooftops about what is offered, especially from the likes of Vueling and Ryanair. Social media is a great FREE platform that needs to be used to its full potential, on top of some mainstream media campaigns. Get people thinking about CWL and checking prices there first. There will always be some leakage to other Airports but its all too common to hear of people not even checking CWL because they think its too expensive or the route isn't available.

I agree with Marko, CWL needs to retreat and work on what it does well with what its already got. KLM and QR were performing well before covid19. KLM needs to be built up to 3x E190s a day and QR still has plenty of scope to fill seats on its current offerings.
The domestic routes need to be brought back, and part of me still thinks there's something in the pipeline with Eastern, especially after CWL being mentioned in the media as having some popular routes not yet being taken on.

Sadly Covid19 is a big stumbling block at the moment which makes any near future predictions very unpredictable!

[OC37]

Whilst I agree with your points to a degree, its not really that simple. Your average Mr or Mrs Jones would not want the hassle of transferring through a hub and taking 2 flights. They would rather the hassle of driving 1-2hrs down the M4 to BRS/LHR or up the M5 to BHX. To many its not even a hassle thats thought about anymore, its the norm.
Business people or regular flyers will be more open minded to hub Airports because they are used to flying. Your average leisure break passenger isn't, so wants the cheapest and quickest air route but will sacrifice land route to get it.!

I agree also to a degree, that many a leisure traveller may be nervous of flying with the most dangerous bits being the landings, "give me a direct flight anyday".

But then going back a few months I saw an exchange with a BRS enthusiast about all the destinations BRS serves, I think it was FCO and another that I checked and the unsocial hours that some of the flights arrive back in to BRS pax are snookered for public transportation, it would either be a hire-car or bust and dare to have had a sherbet or few during the long day until that late evening then even a hire-car wouldn't be a viable option.

And as for LHR, already much of a full day of travelling and then the joys of National Express along the M4, perhaps via Bristol, Chepstow and/or Newport arriving in to, or near to, Cardiff Central so late that there are no connecting buses or trains until the next morning ... WHY? :)

[southside bobby]

The facts dictate the post is very wrong concerning hub flying...& as alluded then who says the quickest "air route" is the cheapest...mostly the reverse anyway isn`t it?

[OC37]

The facts dictate the post is very wrong concerning hub flying...& as alluded then who says the quickest "air route" is the cheapest...mostly the reverse anyway isn`t it?

Exactly ...

From BHX one of my regular destinations was FCO, at the time Jet2, supposedly a LoCo, operated the route directly albeit at unconvenient times, it was actually cheaper for me to travel with Swiss, 3 services daily, PDQ connections in ZRH, and with a complimentary sandwich, coffee and beer served on each sector.

And ditto for BHX/MXP also, served directly at the time by BA Connect and then Flybe, cheaper and more convenient schedules via ZRH with Swiss.

[SWBKCB]

Horses for courses though, fine if you are travelling on yr own and yr happy to do it.

If you're on your 'big' holiday with family and bags, who wants the risk/hassle of a longer journey connecting through an unfamiliar airport?

[OC37]

Horses for courses though, fine if you are travelling on yr own and yr happy to do it.

If you're on your 'big' holiday with family and bags, who wants the risk/hassle of a longer journey connecting through an unfamiliar airport?

But unless families fly to/from the same destination each year then they are travelling thru unfamiliar airports!

Come on, Schiphol Airport, I presume that non EU duty free has resumed in UK, SPL is full of shops for the women to get lost in whilst the men nip off to the Murphy's Irish Pub near the C gates for a swift one or few :)

[caaardiff]

But unless families fly to/from the same destination each year then they are travelling thru unfamiliar airports!

Come on, Schiphol Airport, I presume that non EU duty free has resumed in UK, SPL is full of shops for the women to get lost in whilst the men nip off to the Murphy's Irish Pub near the C gates for a swift one or few :)

Changing mindsets of people in the UK to use connecting flights through Hub Airports is a mammoth and unfamiliar task to approach the standard leisure traveller with. Thats a nationwide task, not just a CWL task.

Flybe had the chance to do it from CWL, with many of their European routes not actually being available from other Airports (by Flybe), yet EDI, BHD and DUB all had connection opportunities through CWL due to the domestic timings working well for short connections. Yet most of those routes still weren't popular and never saw anything to say connections were advertised at those origins.
The majority of the time, the locos are cheaper and quicker, which is the priority for most. If the likes of KLM come out cheaper that would raise alarm bells that their flights aren't busy from CWL, which opens another can of worms.

As for AMS shopping is a luxury on travel not necessity. They would want that at the Airport of origin. If anything the least time spent at a connecting Airport the better. Unless travelling long haul.
There may be deal out there and good connection opportunities, which may be appealing to aviation enthusiasts or those in the know, but afraid the general public don't want that and it will take a lot to change.

I know people that have travelled to MAN, LTN and STN just because the price was good. A friend of mine even travelled to CYPRUS from Luton via the Ukraine to just because the price was good during the school holidays.

[OC37]

Changing mindsets of people in the UK to use connecting flights through Hub Airports is a mammoth and unfamiliar task to approach the standard leisure traveller with..

Why focus on the leisure travellers who might only travel once per year and shop and shop around for the cheapest fare, try targetting the business travellers who might travel every few weeks if not less, they are the 'bread & butter' that should be targetted, one business traveller might be worth a dozen leisure travellers!

The majority of the time, the locos are cheaper and quicker, which is the priority for most. If the likes of KLM come out cheaper that would raise alarm bells that their flights aren't busy from CWL, which opens another can of worms..

Call me experienced but when I'm checking for leisure flights I'm bearing in mind hotel check-in/check-out times, I mentioned FCO/BRS previously, on certain days that flight departs FCO at 2005, if a hotel check-out is 1200 what the **** is one supposed to do for the next 8 hours until their flight departs?

And that flight arrives back in BRS at 2155, there is a coach to Cardiff that departs BRS at 0100, arrives Cardiff at 0225 and then diddly squat onward public transportation for another 3 hours or so, one could get home by around 0700 in the morning.

When I would travel on business I wouldn't, I couldn't afford to, lose a day from the office travelling at an unsuitable time of day just for a direct flight, if my meeting wasn't until the next day then I could occupy until mid-afternoon in the office before the one hour drive to BHX to take a teatime/early evening flight. Next day, once the meeting may be finished, back to FCO for an afternoon flight back, home that evening to be back in the office the next morning.

It wouldn't ring alarm bells, from BHX I regularly travelled to FCO with Swiss via ZRH because they were cheaper than the direct service Jet2, I would regularly travel to RIX, it was cheaper with KLM from BHX via AMS than it was the RYR direct service EMA/RIX that would likely have been full of sex tourists, I was a regular traveller BHX to ARN, mostly I utilised KLM via AMS with one time Lufty being cheaper via FRA, both were cheaper than SAS BHX/CPH/ARN, I was a regular traveller to KBP, only direct services were from LON, I utilised the KLM/UIA codeshare via AMS a few times but then I learned of Lufty's cheap BHX/DUS/KBP on CRJ500's all the way there and back with (achieved) 30 (ish) minute connections in DUS because both were non-Schengen flights so utilised the same terminal finger.

Going back a decade or two I was working for a woman boss in the east Midlands, she was a regular traveller to Belfast where she had friends in the city, we were equal travelling times from both BHX and LTN with BHX a pleasure to transit and LTN a nightmare, she was convinced that EZY were the cheapest LTN/BFS and even when I proved to her that BA Connect BHX/BHD were even cheaper she continued to utilise EZY, these people become brainwashed that a supposed loco is always the cheapest!

A friend of mine even travelled to CYPRUS from Luton via the Ukraine to just because the price was good during the school holidays.

Yes, Ukraine can offer that since they relaxed the visa requirement, must be, 15+ years ago, just look at the UIA B737 that the Iranians shot down, of the 167 pax on board 138 of them were to connect with UIA in KBP for onward travel to Canada, hardly any of the pax on board were actually destination Ukraine.

[TOM100]

Caardiff - out of interest (I honestly don’t know the answer) if in the Flybe day I were to purchase, say EDICWLVCE ticket - would I have been able to thru check myself and bags ? I assume I would have to clear in CWL and re check-in ? Would the same have to have happened to my bags ?

[caaardiff]

Why focus on the leisure travellers who might only travel once per year and shop and shop around for the cheapest fare, try targetting the business travellers who might travel every few weeks if not less, they are the 'bread & butter' that should be targetted, one business traveller might be worth a dozen leisure travellers!



Call me experienced but when I'm checking for leisure flights I'm bearing in mind hotel check-in/check-out times, I mentioned FCO/BRS previously, on certain days that flight departs FCO at 2005, if a hotel check-out is 1200 what the **** is one supposed to do for the next 8 hours until their flight departs?

And that flight arrives back in BRS at 2155, there is a coach to Cardiff that departs BRS at 0100, arrives Cardiff at 0225 and then diddly squat onward public transportation for another 3 hours or so, one could get home by around 0700 in the morning.

When I would travel on business I wouldn't, I couldn't afford to, lose a day from the office travelling at an unsuitable time of day just for a direct flight, if my meeting wasn't until the next day then I could occupy until mid-afternoon in the office before the one hour drive to BHX to take a teatime/early evening flight. Next day, once the meeting may be finished, back to FCO for an afternoon flight back, home that evening to be back in the office the next morning.

It wouldn't ring alarm bells, from BHX I regularly travelled to FCO with Swiss via ZRH because they were cheaper than the direct service Jet2, I would regularly travel to RIX, it was cheaper with KLM from BHX via AMS than it was the RYR direct service EMA/RIX that would likely have been full of sex tourists, I was a regular traveller BHX to ARN, mostly I utilised KLM via AMS with one time Lufty being cheaper via FRA, both were cheaper than SAS BHX/CPH/ARN, I was a regular traveller to KBP, only direct services were from LON, I utilised the KLM/UIA codeshare via AMS a few times but then I learned of Lufty's cheap BHX/DUS/KBP on CRJ500's all the way there and back with (achieved) 30 (ish) minute connections in DUS because both were non-Schengen flights so utilised the same terminal finger.

Going back a decade or two I was working for a woman boss in the east Midlands, she was a regular traveller to Belfast where she had friends in the city, we were equal travelling times from both BHX and LTN with BHX a pleasure to transit and LTN a nightmare, she was convinced that EZY were the cheapest LTN/BFS and even when I proved to her that BA Connect BHX/BHD were even cheaper she continued to utilise EZY, these people become brainwashed that a supposed loco is always the cheapest!



Yes, Ukraine can offer that since they relaxed the visa requirement, must be, 15+ years ago, just look at the UIA B737 that the Iranians shot down, of the 167 pax on board 138 of them were to connect with UIA in KBP for onward travel to Canada, hardly any of the pax on board were actually destination Ukraine.

I'm not denying that sometimes hub flying can be cheaper or more convenient. The point im trying to make is there is only limited business travel demand from CWL, most of which probably already uses KLM and is save to the points you've made above.

The reason I focus on leisure travellers is that is the bulk of the Welsh Market. The example given regarding Rome is certainly a good one if you're a business traveller, convenience is a must. But If i was a tourist visiting Rome I would want to continue seeing the city after checking out of the hotel. Whether that means leaving my bags and collecting them later or carrying them with me. I would also want a late flight to maximise my time there. Leisure travellers aren't overly concerned about the travel to/from the Airport. The majority of holiday/leisure flights that depart mid afternoon from the UK often don't return until the early hours of the morning, when taking a car or booking a transfer us essential. We're both talking about 2 different markets and the different demands of both.

I would suspect the demise of BMI has had a positive effect on KLM at CWL with business travellers using that instead of the convenience of direct regular flights from BRS.

[caaardiff]

Caardiff - out of interest (I honestly don’t know the answer) if in the Flybe day I were to purchase, say EDICWLVCE ticket - would I have been able to thru check myself and bags ? I assume I would have to clear in CWL and re check-in ? Would the same have to have happened to my bags ?

Provided its booked as a through ticket then it would check you in all the way through. Its likely your bags would be tagged through but would still need to be collected and rechecked in though, I'm not entirely sure that CWL offered a transfer baggage option on arrival.
You'd need to clear domestic arrivals or immigration if returning and go back through security.

[OC37]

IThe reason I focus on leisure travellers is that is the bulk of the Welsh Market.

So where were the pax for the Flybe Scottish routes coming from, Belfast is not realistically a leisure destination or has it become that, where would CDG 5+ times weekly pax come from, I worked at CWL 30 years ago and it was pretty much a bucket & spade brigade airport then and from what you're suggesting it hasn't changed very much, is there realistically any hope that CWL can ever make a year-round break-even or profit?

[PDXCWL45]

So where were the pax for the Flybe Scottish routes coming from, Belfast is not realistically a leisure destination or has it become that, where would CDG 5+ times weekly pax come from, I worked at CWL 30 years ago and it was pretty much a bucket & spade brigade airport then and from what you're suggesting it hasn't changed very much, is there realistically any hope that CWL can ever make a year-round break-even or profit?
Business, VFR and leisure. Edinburgh is a big tourist destination, NI has attractions like the giants causeway. Paris is one of the biggest tourist destinations in the world, also has Disney and CDG is a hub not too mention inbound tourism from France.

[OC37]

Business, VFR and leisure. Edinburgh is a big tourist destination, NI has attractions like the giants causeway. Paris is one of the biggest tourist destinations in the world, also has Disney and CDG is a hub not too mention inbound tourism from France.

Perhaps for weekend breaks but not Monday thru Friday and then some or doesn't anybody have a job to go to in Wales ... Actually, thinking about it, perhaps best you don't answer that :)

[caaardiff]

So where were the pax for the Flybe Scottish routes coming from, Belfast is not realistically a leisure destination or has it become that, where would CDG 5+ times weekly pax come from, I worked at CWL 30 years ago and it was pretty much a bucket & spade brigade airport then and from what you're suggesting it hasn't changed very much, is there realistically any hope that CWL can ever make a year-round break-even or profit?

The topic was European City routes and Hub Airports. Not UK & I domestic. Two completely different markets which PDXCWL has covered.

[OC37]

The topic was European City routes and Hub Airports. Not UK & I domestic. Two completely different markets which PDXCWL has covered.

Whose topic was European City routes and hub airports and, please excuse me if I am mistaken, are GLA, EDI, BFS/BHD & PAR not European cities, I was of the impression that this thread was about CWL generating revenue and who should particularly care how that revenue is generated!

[PDXCWL45]

Perhaps for weekend breaks but not Monday thru Friday and then some or doesn't anybody have a job to go to in Wales ... Actually, thinking about it, perhaps best you don't answer that :)
People fly when they need to and not everybody works Monday to Friday.
in 2019 over 100,000 people used the Edinburgh route and around 60,000 used Paris and Belfast is similar Dublin was around 100,000 as well. The demand was and no doubt will be there for those routes. Only airlines can decide if they want to cater for it.

[caaardiff]

Whose topic was European City routes and hub airports and, please excuse me if I am mistaken, are GLA, EDI, BFS/BHD & PAR not European cities, I was of the impression that this thread was about CWL generating revenue and who should particularly care how that revenue is generated!

Your post at 0231am on 15th Sep and the majority of posts that followed it. Forgive me for misinterpreting that post, but it eludes to Hub Airports vs direct routes and lists several European cities. No mention of domestic routes, and although it happens, domestic UK travel via Hub Airports is very rare.
GLA, EDI & BHD are European cities but they are also domestic routes which are served regularly by most Airports with good frequencies. Aside from AMS and CDG, the cities you mentioned in your post on 15th Sept aren't high frequency routes from most Airports. Hence the discussion that transpired regarding frequency and convenience.

[OC37]

People fly when they need to and not everybody works Monday to Friday.
in 2019 over 100,000 people used the Edinburgh route and around 60,000 used Paris and Belfast is similar Dublin was around 100,000 as well. The demand was and no doubt will be there for those routes. Only airlines can decide if they want to cater for it.

But an overwhelming majority do work Monday thru Friday whilst school classes also are Monday thru Friday, I was quite astounded to be informed that CWL doesn't have so many business travellers when I would have thought, that with some notable exceptions, industrial cities are primarily business related with leisure travellers making up the numbers.

Anyway, let's leave it there please.

[TOM100]

Here we go again. Did you apply for the ceo position? Sounds like you can run it better.

With regards to the baggage, have you considered social distancing may be a factor to longer offload times? The hold of an aircraft is a small confined space at the best of times.

I missed this - I am quite happy in my own aviation job ! Not sure there are too many (except maybe Spencer) who would relish this role at the moment. Something at the airport in terms of costs has to give and quickly (simple business economics) unless the WG are happy to continue to bankroll with taxpayers money. This could lead to some anger directed towards the airport.

Although it may not appear obvious, I want the airport to succeed - I use it 10+ times per year, hence my frustration at the apparent lack of commercial focus.

i can only hope they have some magic plan in the pipeline, hence the apparent inertia to react to the current environment. I do feel though that as taxpayers, it is not unreasonable for us to expect them to share some of this. It just feels (I. The absence of any other information) that they are just stumbling on hoping for the best. Surely you have to agree if this were a true commercial organization, they would have to publish their medium term plans and actions ?

[OC37]

Your post at 0231am on 15th Sep and the majority of posts that followed it. Forgive me for misinterpreting that post, but it eludes to Hub Airports vs direct routes and lists several European cities. No mention of domestic routes, and although it happens, domestic UK travel via Hub Airports is very rare.
GLA, EDI & BHD are European cities but they are also domestic routes which are served regularly by most Airports with good frequencies. Aside from AMS and CDG, the cities you mentioned in your post on 15th Sept aren't high frequency routes from most Airports. Hence the discussion that transpired regarding frequency and convenience.

I can recall when Air Kilroe started a MAN/CWL/MAN service utilising J31's, at first people were smiling until PDQ the flights were pretty much full, not only is MAN a European city and hub airport but Air Kilroe had a kind of codeshare agreement with Business Air for UK connections to/from the likes of EDI, GLA, DND & ABZ

[BACsuperVC10]

I can recall when Air Kilroe started a MAN/CWL/MAN service utilising J31's, at first people were smiling until PDQ the flights were pretty much full, not only is MAN a European city and hub airport but Air Kilroe had a kind of codeshare agreement with Business Air for UK connections to/from the likes of EDI, GLA, DND & ABZ

They did, I used it, rather that the slow train service, but it didn't last long. Before that Manx operated LPL-CWL ( which was more handy for me) on the way to GLA. And way before that a Helicopter did that route, request stop at Wrexham !

[PDXCWL45]

I can recall when Air Kilroe started a MAN/CWL/MAN service utilising J31's, at first people were smiling until PDQ the flights were pretty much full, not only is MAN a European city and hub airport but Air Kilroe had a kind of codeshare agreement with Business Air for UK connections to/from the likes of EDI, GLA, DND & ABZ
It's also about 3 hours away by train.

[ivor toolbox]

I can recall when Air Kilroe started a MAN/CWL/MAN service utilising J31's, at first people were smiling until PDQ the flights were pretty much full, not only is MAN a European city and hub airport but Air Kilroe had a kind of codeshare agreement with Business Air for UK connections to/from the likes of EDI, GLA, DND & ABZ

Got priced out, fees wise by Manchester Airport IIRC, MAN wanted the slot for jet traffic

Ttfn

[PDXCWL45]

CAA Stats August 2020
15,339 passengers used the airport down 92.9% on 2019. Rolling year 677,997 down 59.2% on 2019.

Corfu 1116 -61%
Kos 2150 -29%
Rhodes 1804 -62%
Zakinthos 1202 -82%
Amsterdam 1503 -89%
Faro 1176 -85%
Alicante 637 -95%
Barcelona 349 -89%
Malaga 1348 -91%
Palma de Mallorca 344 -98%
Vagar 83
Antalya 1177 -68%
Dalaman 2620 -71%

[Midland Alpha9]

I'm sure management will do what they feel is best for the business. 25 minutes sound's reasonable especially as I'd have thought that the airport was on skeleton crewing. The drop in numbers is no different from other Flybe reliant airports.
CAA Stats July 2020
3506 passengers used the airport in July down 98% on 2019. The rolling year was 879,000 down 46.5% on 2019.
Domestic
Humberside 70
Leeds Bradford 67
Liverpool 68
Teesside 66
European
Faro 818 -88%
Alicante 366 -97%
Barcelona 428 -87%
Malaga 1623 -89%
Waiting 25 minutes for your baggage at a regional airport is not reasonable ! They are times more akin to a major hub. Those of us who have worked in this sector would know this type of performance would be wholly unacceptable in a Service Level Agreement. Service dilution under the guise of covid 19 is wearing thin.

[PDXCWL45]

Waiting 25 minutes for your baggage at a regional airport is not reasonable ! They are times more akin to a major hub. Those of us who have worked in this sector would know this type of performance would be wholly unacceptable in a Service Level Agreement. Service dilution under the guise of covid 19 is wearing thin.
Well I was told that time by someone who does work in industry and was a baggage handler at one time as well I believe.

[PDXCWL45]

And as a paying passenger I think it's a reasonable time as well especially at Cardiff where there's very little walking to do to get to the baggage hall compared to the big airports like Heathrow and Amsterdam.

[TOM100]

Grim CAA numbers.....

[LTNman]

Is Cardiff now inside one of the latest Welsh lockdown areas announced today? Even if it is not passengers can’t get there from lockdown areas.

[PDXCWL45]

Is Cardiff now inside one of the latest Welsh lockdown areas announced today? Even if it is not passengers can’t get there from lockdown areas.
No. Newport, Bridgend, Blaenau gwent, merthyr, Caerphilly and Rhondda cynon taff are the areas under lockdown.

[PDXCWL45]

Grim CAA numbers.....
Same story across the whole country sadly. Going to be a long recovery.

[caaardiff]

Waiting 25 minutes for your baggage at a regional airport is not reasonable ! They are times more akin to a major hub. Those of us who have worked in this sector would know this type of performance would be wholly unacceptable in a Service Level Agreement. Service dilution under the guise of covid 19 is wearing thin.

The SLA for most charter operators is maximum 40 mins for the last bag to be delivered.

[fanrailuk]

Is Cardiff now inside one of the latest Welsh lockdown areas announced today? Even if it is not passengers can’t get there from lockdown areas.

CWL is situated in the Vale of Glamorgan, which is surrounded by Bridgend County Borough, RCT and the City & County of Cardiff.

[caaardiff]

Is Cardiff now inside one of the latest Welsh lockdown areas announced today? Even if it is not passengers can’t get there from lockdown areas.

You can travel through the lockdown areas to get to/from CWL, but I imagine a lot of people with flights booked from CWL would be from the areas in lockdown.

[PDXCWL45]

Looks like Ryanair have dropped Malta completely. Not onsale on the app anymore. That leaves Faro and Malaga for next summer.

[Letsflycwl]

Looks like Ryanair have dropped Malta completely. Not onsale on the app anymore. That leaves Faro and Malaga for next summer.

Was it not the same around this time last year ? They were late releasing the MLA schedule for most UK airports and not just a CWL issue.....are there any other UK airports on the schedule ? I thought MLA was one of their popular routes ex CWL

[PDXCWL45]

Was it not the same around this time last year ? They were late releasing the MLA schedule for most UK airports and not just a CWL issue.....are there any other UK airports on the schedule ? I thought MLA was one of their popular routes ex CWL
Not as far as I'm aware. Yes Malta has been quite popular but no doubt Covid19 is putting people off from booking. I was thinking about it for January but the uncertainty of whether the quarantine restrictions will still be in place or added again while I'm there put me off as I can't afford to isolate for 2 weeks on basic sick pay and no doubt many are thinking like me.

[fanrailuk]

Looks like Ryanair have dropped Malta completely. Not onsale on the app anymore. That leaves Faro and Malaga for next summer.

Looks similar across other UK stations that don’t have FR bases, presumably (and probably most definitely) Covid related as the MLA route was FRs busiest year-round service from CWL... :rolleyes:

[TOM100]

It’s curious that VY are still operating with such low loads....

[PDXCWL45]

Looks like KLM have made some changes for November and December.
From 26th October to 22nd November Amsterdam will be 6 weekly with a 17.25 departure. No flights on Saturday.
From 23rd November to 4th January the route will be 14 weekly with a 10.15 and 17.25 departure. Of course this subject to change.
My own personal opinion is that I doubt we'll see the nightstopping aircraft until the start of Summer 2021. At the moment it's supposed to resume in January.

[PDXCWL45]

According to their app Vueling won't be operating Malaga in November and December it'll be 1 weekly on a Saturday in October and then resume 2 weekly Tuesday and Saturday in January.
Alicante remains 3 weekly Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

[Midland Alpha9]

Well I was told that time by someone who does work in industry and was a baggage handler at one time as well I believe.
Well as an ex director of two major international airlines responsible for airports worldwide I can assure you it is not.

[Midland Alpha9]

The SLA for most charter operators is maximum 40 mins for the last bag to be delivered.
Agreed for last bag not first bag . Charter SLA's tend do be different to scheduled services

[PDXCWL45]

Anglesey won't resume until 4/1/21 now

[LTNman]

Won’t be long before no one in Wales will be able to to use the airport.

[PDXCWL45]

Won’t be long before no one in Wales will be able to to use the airport.
It looks like all that'll be operating is KLM and Vueling.

[fanrailuk]

QR service to/from DOH postponed and now due to restart S21

First flight planned for Monday 29 March 2021

[CWL757]

It looks like all that'll be operating is KLM and Vueling.
No TUI this winter?

[PDXCWL45]

No TUI this winter?
It depends whether Spain and Canary Islands are open.

[Capt Scribble]

Depends whether Wales is open. Most of the population in the south has just been ordered not to leave their county without good reason. Apparently, going on your holibobs is not a valid reason. Who is going to book when the rules change by the day.

[allan1987]

On Eastern Airways Website

Cardiff-Anglesey now suspended until January 4th 2021 due Welsh essential travel restrictions

https://www.easternairways.com/announcements/coronavirus-information

[PDXCWL45]

On Eastern Airways Website



https://www.easternairways.com/announcements/coronavirus-information
According to Eastern on twitter the government requested the start be put back. Welsh government that is.

[TOM100]

Are TUI still going to operate with Cardiff and surrounding boroughs locked down ?

[PDXCWL45]

Are TUI still going to operate with Cardiff and surrounding boroughs locked down ?
I'd expect they would. Still potentially have passengers from non lockdown areas and passengers to return.

[TOM100]

Yeah I guess pax to return but from tomorrow the Vale of Glamorgan is locked down too 😂

[PDXCWL45]

Dublin and Paris are the biggest frequency loss and Cardiff lost 37 weekly international departures.
https://www.anna.aero/2020/09/28/78-of-flybes-international-routes-still-unserved-southampton-worst-hit/

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff Airport business down 93% due to COVID-19
https://t.co/FLStZTtbbI

[fanrailuk]

According to a reliable source on here and various other platforms, T3 are to start a daily (ex Sat) BHD service on 11 January.

Announcement apparently scheduled for tomorrow...

[allan1987]

Eastern Airways to start flights from 11 January CWL to BHD

Announcement should be tomorrow or Thursday
CWL 10:45-12:00 BHD (Mon-Thu)

CWL 15:15-16:30 BHD (Sun)

CWL 17:55-19:10 BHD (Fri)



BHD 12:30-13:45 CWL (Mon-Thu)

BHD 17:00-18:15 CWL (Sun)

BHD 19:40-20:55 CWL (Fri)

Flights Will be on JS41
timings was sourced from here

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1313574397312151554

https://t3-prodibe.avantik.io/B2C/en/Home/Availability/CWL/BHD/20210111/20210112/1/0/0/0/GBP/True/0/#!

Flights Will be on JS41

Looks to be timed CWL-VLY-CWL-BHD-CWL

[PDXCWL45]

Good news that Belfast is back and hopefully this is the first of many routes to return to Cardiff and will lead to a base!

[Letsflycwl]

Good news that Belfast is back and hopefully this is the first of many routes to return to Cardiff and will lead to a base!

This must have been the reason for the CWL recruitment then for Eastern. Let’s hope they see the potential and eye up EDI, DUB and potentially CDG too and possibly base an additional aircraft for these routes.......obviously COVID will play a big part here but great to see BHD back

[PDXCWL45]

This must have been the reason for the CWL recruitment then for Eastern. Let’s hope they see the potential and eye up EDI, DUB and potentially CDG too and possibly base an additional aircraft for these routes.......obviously COVID will play a big part here but great to see BHD back
I suspect those routes would require bigger aircraft Atr72 E190 rather than a J41 so could take longer to sort out.

[ATNotts]

This must have been the reason for the CWL recruitment then for Eastern. Let’s hope they see the potential and eye up EDI, DUB and potentially CDG too and possibly base an additional aircraft for these routes.......obviously COVID will play a big part here but great to see BHD back

I do struggle to understand how Eastern are going to make money operating such a small aircraft as the J41, will they compete successfully up against EZY at BRS especially with leisure passengers who must make up a fairly large slice of the market.

[caaardiff]

I'm not sure if the pricing model is the same as it used to be but when T3 were operating NCL it was said that the breakeven load factor wasn't that high, even with only 29 seats. The starting prices currently available is £79.99 one way, and according to the website it looks like only 4 seats are available at that price. Hopefully selling 29 seats isn't going to be that difficult as the flight timings aren't too bad, despite it being only once a day. NCL worked for T3 for many years despite LF's not being that high, and i would have thought there is more demand for Belfast than Newcastle.
Depending on crew availability there is scope for another evening flight to BHD or elsewhere, as the VLY aircraft arrives back at 1820, so a 1900 departure to say BHD or EDI would work. That would then utilise 2 sets of crew throughout the day, which I'm guessing 2 sets of crew is already required for the current offering of VLY x2 and BHD x1.

[Letsflycwl]

I suspect those routes would require bigger aircraft Atr72 E190 rather than a J41 so could take longer to sort out.

The J41 served all 3 of these destinations with British Airways Express for many years.....both EDI & CDG being 3 times a day back then so who knows what the plans are. Guess it’s “watch this space”

[PDXCWL45]

I do struggle to understand how Eastern are going to make money operating such a small aircraft as the J41, will they compete successfully up against EZY at BRS especially with leisure passengers who must make up a fairly large slice of the market.
I'd expect that they would be looking at people who'll pay extra for the convenience of using the route and looking at their prices they're not that far away from Flybe prices when they operated a single daily flight on the Q400.

[Letsflycwl]

I'd expect that they would be looking at people who'll pay extra for the convenience of using the route and looking at their prices they're not that far away from Flybe prices when they operated a single daily flight on the Q400.

The Eastern fare also includes a 15kgs baggage allowance

[PDXCWL45]

The Eastern fare also includes a 15kgs baggage allowance
And free snacks, from what I can remember when the Flybe flight was Q400 daily it was in the bracket of £60 to £70 quite often. People were often complaining about the high price.

[Letsflycwl]

And free snacks, from what I can remember when the Flybe flight was Q400 daily it was in the bracket of £60 to £70 quite often. People were often complaining about the high price.

Yeah so true, plus lounge access too for the higher fares (I think this is still the case). It’s great to see Eastern utilise the based J41 more between VLY sectors and I’m sure BHD will become a good little sector for them too (unless COVID has other plans).

I’m still thinking there maybe more from Eastern at CWL to come, 3 key destinations remain unserved (DUB, EDI & CDG) & Eastern still advertising for CWL based crew. Eastern have the larger AT7, E70 and E90 joining the fleet so who knows here maybe CWL are in discussion with them to step into Flybe’s shoes with some routes.......time will tell but hope I’m right as there be no competition for Eastern at CWL which would be good for them too.

[SKOJB]

Yeah so true, plus lounge access too for the higher fares (I think this is still the case). It’s great to see Eastern utilise the based J41 more between VLY sectors and I’m sure BHD will become a good little sector for them too (unless COVID has other plans).

I’m still thinking there maybe more from Eastern at CWL to come, 3 key destinations remain unserved (DUB, EDI & CDG) & Eastern still advertising for CWL based crew. Eastern have the larger AT7, E70 and E90 joining the fleet so who knows here maybe CWL are in discussion with them to step into Flybe’s shoes with some routes.......time will tell but hope I’m right as there be no competition for Eastern at CWL which would be good for them too.

Don’t get your hopes up as even SOU with its new Eastern hub doesn’t have DUB (starting Jan 21 although been put back several times already) and CDG is not on the horizon what with cases in France rising once again. BFD has been chosen as it’s making use of an under utilised J41 and is also the best serving route on the network, albeit from a very low starting point!

[PDXCWL45]

Realistically for the likes of Dublin and Paris and Edinburgh were probably talking Summer 2021 potential start at the earliest maybe even winter or even summer 2022.

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff Airport, in a move aimed at boosting freight traffic and associated storage and logistics facilities around its terminal, could also potentially bid.
https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/uk-government-wants-see-least-19069311.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

[fanrailuk]

Seems Ryanair have removed BCN and MLA from their CWL offering for Summer 2021...

FAO remains at 2 x weekly (Mon & Fri, full season) and AGP remains at 3 x weekly (Mon, Wed, Fri in Jun, Jul & Aug only)

Here's hoping they will add more if and when things improve, but these are staple solid routes that should survive!

[PDXCWL45]

I'm sure both routes will return eventually.
But at the moment there isn't just the demand.

[LTNman]

So is Cardiff closing down for at least a couple of weeks?

[fanrailuk]

So is Cardiff closing down for at least a couple of weeks?

According to their social media posts they will remain open throughout for “legitimate air travel”

[LTNman]

Sounds like total BS. I can't travel to the Gower on Saturday for a holiday and they can't leave their area for a trip to the rest of Wales but someone from the Gower and I assume England can travel to Cardiff Airport for holiday in a virus hot spot like The Netherlands or Spain. We have to remember who owns Cardiff Airport. I am thinking if I paid £2000 for a half term holiday that is a legitimate reason to travel.

https://i.imgur.com/axK5wY3.jpg

[CabinCrewe]

any sign of QR DOH? Though EDI barely managing a third capacity loads, Im surprised thats still being bankrolled!

[PDXCWL45]

any sign of QR DOH? Though EDI barely managing a third capacity loads, Im surprised thats still being bankrolled!
Due to return for summer 2021.
The airport will be open for essential travel during the lockdown it will not be closed.

[PDXCWL45]

Sounds like total BS. I can't travel to the Gower on Saturday for a holiday and they can't leave their area for a trip to the rest of Wales but someone from the Gower and I assume England can travel to Cardiff Airport for holiday in a virus hot spot like The Netherlands or Spain. We have to remember who owns Cardiff Airport. I am thinking if I paid £2000 for a half term holiday that is a legitimate reason to travel.

https://i.imgur.com/axK5wY3.jpgThe airport is considered a key part of national infrastructure so will remain open for essential travel during the lockdown.

[Midland Alpha9]

any sign of QR DOH? Though EDI barely managing a third capacity loads, Im surprised thats still being bankrolled!
Regrettably, my field agents inform me they are not going to return.

[PDXCWL45]

Regrettably, my field agents inform me they are not going to return.
Yet I've been told the opposite and flights are onsale from the 29th March 2021. Guess we'll find out eventually!

[MARK 101]

The airport is considered a key part of national infrastructure so will remain open for essential travel during the lockdown.
Any reason for the, charters on there. Cityjet to Venice, Blue Islands to Paris and the Faroe Islands ?? Not normal CWL flights are these people escaping the lockdown ?

[PDXCWL45]

Any reason for the, charters on there. Cityjet to Venice, Blue Islands to Paris and the Faroe Islands ?? Not normal CWL flights are these people escaping the lockdown ?
Football and rugby teams. Cardiff sees a good amount of sports charters due to having 4 pro rugby teams, 2 championship football teams, 1 pro hockey team and the various national teams for rugby and football men and women in it's catchment area.

[BHX5DME]

Just 13,725 pax in Sept 20 down 93%

[Midland Alpha9]

Yet I've been told the opposite and flights are onsale from the 29th March 2021. Guess we'll find out eventually!
Let's hope so the service is a fantastic connection to the Middle East with all the interline connectivity to the Far East. Fingers crossed

[CabinCrewe]

KLM AMS suspended?

[PDXCWL45]

KLM AMS suspended?
Yep until mid February.

[Letsflycwl]

Read today that Loganair are basing an aircraft at MME to operate ABZ, BHD, DUB, JER & NQY all in competition with Eastern that only just started there and operate to the same destinations.

Baffles me how a small airport like MME has secured 2 airlines within months (yes I know these have incentives from the Mayor) but I doubt very much MME can support 2 airlines on the same routes.

I would have thought CWL would be out there chasing an airline like Eastern to base another aircraft to compliment VLY and the soon to be BHD. Both EDI & DUB would fit well and also possibly a less frequent JER as these had high passenger figures.

CWL seems to be the only ex-Flybe airport that has been snubbed by Aer Lingus, Aurigny, Blue Islands and Loganair. Just seems weird to me as they would have no competition and pick of the best routes......come on Eastern (or another carrier) give us another J41 or AT7 !!!

At this rate MME, EXT & NQY will all be busier than CWL !!

[fanrailuk]

Read today that Loganair are basing an aircraft at MME to operate ABZ, BHD, DUB, JER & NQY all in competition with Eastern that only just started there and operate to the same destinations.

Baffles me how a small airport like MME has secured 2 airlines within months (yes I know these have incentives from the Mayor) but I doubt very much MME can support 2 airlines on the same routes.

I would have thought CWL would be out there chasing an airline like Eastern to base another aircraft to compliment VLY and the soon to be BHD. Both EDI & DUB would fit well and also possibly a less frequent JER as these had high passenger figures.

CWL seems to be the only ex-Flybe airport that has been snubbed by Aer Lingus, Aurigny, Blue Islands and Loganair. Just seems weird to me as they would have no competition and pick of the best routes......come on Eastern (or another carrier) give us another J41 or AT7 !!!

At this rate MME, EXT & NQY will all be busier than CWL !!

You’re right in saying that MME cannot and will not sustain both of these airlines on these routes.

CWL does not need these regional airlines for its own survival - both of which may or may not survive the pandemic.

Holding off is the best thing the management can do right now, in my opinion. It may not bode well for pax figures or how the airport appears to be spending taxpayers money, but CWL has been burned SO many times before that waiting this one out is probably the best thing they can do.

The Senedd cannot be seen to throw money at airlines like the Tees Valley mayor seems to enjoy so much (during a global pandemic)... :=

[caaardiff]

You’re right in saying that MME cannot and will not sustain both of these airlines on these routes.

CWL does not need these regional airlines for its own survival - both of which may or may not survive the pandemic.

Holding off is the best thing the management can do right now, in my opinion. It may not bode well for pax figures or how the airport appears to be spending taxpayers money, but CWL has been burned SO many times before that waiting this one out is probably the best thing they can do.

The Senedd cannot be seen to throw money at airlines like the Tees Valley mayor seems to enjoy so much (during a global pandemic)... :=

Agreed. I have a feeling that money isn't being thrown at Airlines like at other Airports for that exact reason.

[Letsflycwl]

Agreed. I have a feeling that money isn't being thrown at Airlines like at other Airports for that exact reason.

Yeah I do agree with this and guess what I’m trying to say is that I know CWL had their fingers burnt by BMI baby & then Flybe but given Eastern already have one aircraft based, I would have thought EDI & DUB would have fitted in well. COVID-19 pandemic had obviously thrown a spanner into things.

[Albert Hall]

How much did Cardiff throw at Qatar and would that not have been enough to support a broad range of regional connectivity for an awfully long time ? Between that and the Flybe deal, Cardiff wrote the book on these types of arrangements and so there can be no complaints about what happens elsewhere?

[SWBKCB]

and not forgetting that bmiBaby broke their contract with MME so as to move to CWL...

[TOM100]

I believe CWL (2002) opened as a base before MME (2003). I know WW broke their contract with MME but not sure it had anything to do with CWL.

LCCs can make money at CWL in the summer months but lose a packet in the Winter (typically the summer profits don’t cover the winter losses and provide a return). I remember my previous director saying he wished he could just close the airline (and costs) for 5 months of the year and he would have a great business !! Haha - obviously most of the aircraft (save a few winter leases), crew and employees have to do something.........

[TOM100]

https://ukaviation.news/jet2-preparing-to-launch-base-at-bristol-airport/

[PDXCWL45]

https://ukaviation.news/jet2-preparing-to-launch-base-at-bristol-airport/
That's a massive blow to Cardiffs recovery as their target passengers will be TUIs passengers. 2020 has been a horrible year for the airport.

[ATNotts]

That's a massive blow to Cardiffs recovery as their target passengers will be TUIs passengers. 2020 has been a horrible year for the airport.

The reality is that Bristol's catchment area is very much more affluent than Cardiff's, stretching as it does down the M4 corridor towards London; that is why EasyJet has such a large base there, mainly serving leisure destinations. You can argue whether Summer 2021 is a wise time to embarque on such expansion, but time alone will tell.

[TOM100]

I think Jet2 will do very well - TUI have really not covered themselves in glory with their customer service and handling of refunds during this crisis (take a look at TUI Vs Jet2Holidays Trustpilot reviews). I think a lot of people will give them a go (including from the Welsh side of the bridge) especially when some of their poor TUI experiences are so recent. I wonder if CWL were in the mix for a South West base and what they were able to bring to the table ? Anyway, I think avoiding a TUI monopoly on package holidays in the region can only be a good thing for consumers, albeit a blow for the Welsh airport. Jet2’s customer service reputation and string of awards is enviable. They also have a lot of support from independent agents and the likes of Hays travel (who now have a sizeable presence in South Wales). Whether TUI will have a response to this for the region time will tell. TUI seem a bit slow and not hugely nimble (in comparison) during this current climate.

Jet2 could overtake TUI in terms of ATOL licences in the near future - quite an achievement. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them at LGW before long.

[PDXCWL45]

I think Cardiffs best hope is that Jet2 squeezes the airlines there so much that they look at expanding at Cardiff and Exeter instead of Bristol.

[TOM100]

PDX - agree. Worst case though is they drive incremental growth for BRS from their catchment and BHX/CWL - we know how easily the people from South Wales will cross the bridge for a good deal or for the right trip - they do it in their hundreds of thousands already. I personally know a number of people who have been pretty fed up with TUI this year (waiting months for refunds) and who say now they will book anybody but TUI. Obviously this is just my anecdotal experience and whether this will have a material impact I don’t know. Some local agents have also be burnt by them. Let’s hope the CWL team are doing what they can to cement the TUI relationship as any damage to them at CWL would be a severe blow to the airport.

[southside bobby]

Jet2/Holidays should not be under estimated...They are market makers & influencers.

They barrelled into the lions den of STN back in the day when many said it could not work.

[Midland Alpha9]

Yeah I do agree with this and guess what I’m trying to say is that I know CWL had their fingers burnt by BMI baby & then Flybe but given Eastern already have one aircraft based, I would have thought EDI & DUB would have fitted in well. COVID-19 pandemic had obviously thrown a spanner into things.
The reason CWL got their fingers burnt by bmi baby was because the airport encouraged Flybe to compete with bmi on routes that could not sustain two carriers. The airport authority were informed if they persisted with this strategy baby would relocate their aircraft elsewhere, which of course happened.

[TOM100]

I know not directly related to CWL but I think adds to the whole ‘success and growth of Jet2/H’ - this is an appalling way to treat suppliers - many of whom will be small family businesses and I think demonstrates an abuse of their dominance. I get they are struggling but in the same way they made customers wait and chase for refunds through the summer they are now doing the same to hoteliers (I have no idea if Jet2 are employing similar tactics).

This wont engender loyalty from either suppliers or customers and will drive people to alternates like Jet2. Why would you want to do more business (than you absolutely have to) with an organisation that behaves in such a way. Can they renege on contracts like this ? it is extraordinary times for them but it is for consumers and suppliers too who don’t have access to billions in state aid.

my point is that these kinds of actions can only drive more people - customers, agents and suppliers to want to do business with those organisations who play fair. My personal view is that TUI are doing some real damage to their brand and relationships.

https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/392492/tui-in-dispute-with-greek-hoteliers-over-delayed-payments

[PDXCWL45]

A little bit of good news for CWL.
TUI have added extra flights to Turkey from Cardiff Airport for Summer 2021

Dalaman goes from 2 to 3 weekly with flights on Mon, Wed and Thurs

Antalya goes from 1 to 2 weekly with flights on Mon and Thurs

[Letsflycwl]

I wonder (or clutch at straws) whether TUI will invest more at CWL now with Jet2 & Jet2 Holidays going to BRS ?? I imagine TUI will not be overly impressed about this move and BRS must be pretty full.....

[PDXCWL45]

I wonder (or clutch at straws) whether TUI will invest more at CWL now with Jet2 & Jet2 Holidays going to BRS ?? I imagine TUI will not be overly impressed about this move and BRS must be pretty full.....
Depends how much they effect them but a lot of people are just assuming that they'll only effect TUI. Easyjet also have a holiday division and they might also reduce Ryanair yields as well.
Hopefully TUI and Ryanair will add more at Cardiff along with Vueling.

[Letsflycwl]

Depends how much they effect them but a lot of people are just assuming that they'll only effect TUI. Easyjet also have a holiday division and they might also reduce Ryanair yields as well.
Hopefully TUI and Ryanair will add more at Cardiff along with Vueling.

As good as the news is about Jet2 going into BRS, it must be pretty full to capacity for night stopping aircraft.......and a lot of duplication of routes and destinations.

EZY, FR & Jet2 (plus TUI too) now going head to head.....maybe this may prove too much for one airline who could potentially make the hop across the Severn, who knows but let’s hope CWL work closely with those limited airlines they have left.

[PDXCWL45]

As good as the news is about Jet2 going into BRS, it must be pretty full to capacity for night stopping aircraft.......and a lot of duplication of routes and destinations.

EZY, FR & Jet2 (plus TUI too) now going head to head.....maybe this may prove too much for one airline who could potentially make the hop across the Severn, who knows but let’s hope CWL work closely with those limited airlines they have left.
I don't think any airline will be pushed out but Ryanair and TUI do have the option of adding at Cardiff and Exeter on routes where competition is
high. It'll be interesting to see Easyjets reaction as up until now they have been the ones that have dominated Bristol.

[EI-BUD]

Jet2 is significantly differentiated in terms of being more a tour operator than an airline. Not much easyJet can do. Just as with Ryanair at STN and BHX, Jet2 thrived and not much the incumbent could do. People rate Jet2 very highly...
​​​​​

[Letsflycwl]

I don't think any airline will be pushed out but Ryanair and TUI do have the option of adding at Cardiff and Exeter on routes where competition is
high. It'll be interesting to see Easyjets reaction as up until now they have been the ones that have dominated Bristol.

Be interesting to see EZY reaction I guess, they’ve more of less saved BRS and made it what it is today, so imagine they will not be impressed at all. First FR and now Jet2...... would be amazing to see some “W” patterns through CWL to test the water as a result of this and to threaten BRS after all they’ve invested and done for BRS.

[PDXCWL45]

Be interesting to see EZY reaction I guess, they’ve more of less saved BRS and made it what it is today, so imagine they will not be impressed at all. First FR and now Jet2...... would be amazing to see some “W” patterns through CWL to test the water as a result of this and to threaten BRS after all they’ve invested and done for BRS.
I'd be very shocked if Easyjet showed up at Cardiff but would be nice.

[Letsflycwl]

I'd be very shocked if Easyjet showed up at Cardiff but would be nice.

Yeah I know - very wishful thinking indeed on my behalf but who knows with Ryanair though, they certainly will not like it. Plus who knows TUI may be narked off with it all too.

[fanrailuk]

Spencer Birns, Interim CEO at Cardiff Airport said:

“Following the news that Jet2 will be launching a base at Bristol Airport, we want to reassure our customers that we continue to speak with airlines to secure routes at Cardiff Airport, and are doing everything that we can to ensure the long-term viability of the Airport given the current circumstances.

“COVID-19 has had a devastating impact on the global aviation industry, and the ongoing travel restrictions in place continue to hamper the industry’s recovery.

“We look forward to our airlines resuming their flights from Cardiff Airport in the near future, with many holiday flights now on sale for the summer season.

“We continue to maintain regular dialogue with airlines regarding route development, and we expect to be able to offer sufficient choice for our customers as we move towards recovery.”

Textbook answer maybe because they simply have no leads and no money to throw at airlines...?

[PDXCWL45]

Interesting that they put out a statement.
Can't find that statement online though? Is there a link for it?
And let's face it an airport can have all the money in the world but if the airline's aren't interested there's not a lot they can do.

[TOM100]

Answer on Jet2 approach:


https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/392615/jet2-boss-takes-swipe-at-rivals-withholding-hotel-payments

[AP1995]

Abit strange they released a statement regarding an airline and competitor airport?

[PDXCWL45]

Abit strange they released a statement regarding an airline and competitor airport?
I can't find anything yet about where that statement comes from.

[fanrailuk]

I can't find anything yet about where that statement comes from.

The statement was issued to a friend who has a vested interested in CWL when he messaged them regarding the weeks developments.

It is not a general “press release” per se.

[MerchantVenturer]

Be interesting to see EZY reaction I guess, they’ve more of less saved BRS and made it what it is today, so imagine they will not be impressed at all. First FR and now Jet2...... would be amazing to see some “W” patterns through CWL to test the water as a result of this and to threaten BRS after all they’ve invested and done for BRS.

Makes it sound as if easyJet is some sort of charity that turned up at BRS for purely altruistic reasons and has now been spurned by an ungrateful supplicant. The reason easyJet has grown so much at BRS over most of this century is that it makes money there. Were that not the case it would not have stayed. A recent aviation analyst’s report concluded that BRS is one of the airline’s most profitable bases. The easyJet presence is mutually beneficial as the airport is very profitable for its owners, pandemic effects excepted.

That’s why airlines like easyJet, Ryanair, TUI and now Jet2 are prepared to operate a significant presence at a small airport site perched on top of a mist-laden hill, with a ski-jump size runway, poor surface connectivity in the middle of a Green Belt. Jet2 is partly a replacement for the former three-aircraft Thomas Cook operation anyway. TCX’s programme was never fully replaced by other airlines, especially its Greek and Turkish programme.

As for easyJet saving BRS - it has certainly paid a major part in the airport's growth - but it had already been saved by the time GoFly (soon to be acquired by easyJet) arrived in 2001. The real saviour was a a charismatic individual called Les Wilson who was appointed MD in 1980 at a time when the city council-owned airport was a loss-making, economic basket case supported by the long-suffering Bristol rate payers, of whom I was one. There were periodic local demands for its closure in the 1960s and 1970s. Les, whose arrival might well have been the last throw of the dice, recognised the potential of the catchment, as incidentally did Barbara Cassani (Go’s CEO) and her team twenty years later, and set about turning around the airport’s fortunes. Tragically he was killed in a motoring accident in 1995. By 2000 the airport had been growing steadily for many years and passed the 2 mppa barrier that year with its only low-cost carrier being Ryanair to Dublin, that also operated a CWL-DUB service then.

There should be no problem with aircraft parking at BRS next year. Five new stands have been built in the last few years, with more to come if the airport’s planning appeal is successful. Furthermore, the previously-based three Thomas Cook and five/six flybmi aircraft are now out of the picture, albeit larger aircraft could not use all the stands occupied by the small flybmi Embraers.

BRS’s real problem will arise if it loses its planning appeal and is stuck with a 10 mppa cap indefinitely. Had the pandemic not intervened the BRS management was projecting the 10 million annual cap being reached by the end of 2021 - it had reached a 12-month rolling total of nearly 9.2 million in February this year before the virus made its presence felt.

Perversely the pandemic might have helped BRS in the sense that it now has more time to ride out the appeal procedure, which could take a while, without the possibility of having to turn away business because its annual passenger cap had been reached.

Ryanair and TUI began some expansion at CWL (and at EXT) pre-pandemic and but for the emergency that might well have continued. It still might once aviation begins to get back to normal, or even sooner if the Jet2 arrival really does lead to some adjustment in travel patterns across Severnside. In any case if BRS is permanently capped at its current level an entirely new scenario will emerge in the South Wales/South West England aviation sector within the next few years. The Welsh Government and its airport company will certainly be watching with great interest - they both formally objected to the BRS planning application that was rejected by the local authority early this year.

[PDXCWL45]

Sadly for the planespotters there will be no non based airline operating for TUI for S21. The Monday PMI that was down as for a non based other airline has been shifted into the last evening slot on Mondays. I had hoped they'd go 3 weekly with TFS.
In summary 43 weekly departures 2 destinations lost Sharm el Sheikh and Naples, 3 based aircraft. For Summer 2020 i believe there was supposed to be 47 weekly departures.
Palma de Mallorca 6 weekly
Ibiza 3 weekly
Dalaman 3 weekly
Antalya 2 weekly
Lanzarote 2 weekly
Tenerife 2 weekly -1 weekly flight
Malaga 2 weekly
Alicante 2 weekly
Rhodes 2 weekly
Kos 2 weekly
Corfu 2 weekly
Menorca 2 weekly
Paphos 2 weekly
Zante 2 weekly
Bourgas 1 weekly
Larnaca 1 weekly
Heraklion 1 weekly
Keffalonia 1 weekly
Gran Canaria 1 weekly -1 weekly flight
Enfidha 1 weekly
Reus 1 weekly
Dubrovnik 1 weekly
Faro 1 weekly

[CWL757]

Sadly for the planespotters there will be no non based airline operating for TUI for S21. The Monday PMI that was down as for a non based other airline has been shifted into the last evening slot on Mondays. I had hoped they'd go 3 weekly with TFS.
In summary 43 weekly departures 2 destinations lost Sharm el Sheikh and Naples, 3 based aircraft. For Summer 2020 i believe there was supposed to be 47 weekly departures.
Palma de Mallorca 6 weekly
Ibiza 3 weekly
Dalaman 3 weekly
Antalya 2 weekly
Lanzarote 2 weekly
Tenerife 2 weekly -1 weekly flight
Malaga 2 weekly
Alicante 2 weekly
Rhodes 2 weekly
Kos 2 weekly
Corfu 2 weekly
Menorca 2 weekly
Paphos 2 weekly
Zante 2 weekly
Bourgas 1 weekly
Larnaca 1 weekly
Heraklion 1 weekly
Keffalonia 1 weekly
Gran Canaria 1 weekly -1 weekly flight
Enfidha 1 weekly
Reus 1 weekly
Dubrovnik 1 weekly
Faro 1 weekly
Bittersweet really, whilst the non based was great for planespotters, it's good to see TUI purely using its own metal at CWL. It's also great to see the 3 a/c base is still happening, just a shame about SSH,NAP and The canaries being decreased though.

[PDXCWL45]

Bittersweet really, whilst the non based was great for planespotters, it's good to see TUI purely using its own metal at CWL. It's also great to see the 3 a/c base is still happening, just a shame about SSH,NAP and The canaries being decreased though.
It is a shame we won't see the likes of Freebird or Albastar or Norwegian next year but it's not surprising as considering everything going on with Covid19.
The loss of Egypt and the only Italian route is regrettable but I believe SSH is supposed to be operating in 2022 and hopefully when the cruise industry picks back up Naples will return. One good thing is that Dubrovnik wasn't cut as well.
Hopefully in the long run we might see a 4th based aircraft eventually but for now 3 will do nicely!

[yeo valley]

It is a shame we won't see the likes of Freebird or Albastar or Norwegian next year but it's not surprising as considering everything going on with Covid19.
The loss of Egypt and the only Italian route is regrettable but I believe SSH is supposed to be operating in 2022 and hopefully when the cruise industry picks back up Naples will return. One good thing is that Dubrovnik wasn't cut as well.
Hopefully in the long run we might see a 4th based aircraft eventually but for now 3 will do nicely!
Reading on the BHX thread Norwegian wont be around next year.How true this is or someone jumping the gun i dont know,but time will tell.

[PDXCWL45]

Reading on the BHX thread Norwegian wont be around next year.How true this is or someone jumping the gun i dont know,but time will tell.
People have been saying that about Norwegian for years!

[CWL757]

Do we know if TUI will be basing some SWG airframes here next year?

[PDXCWL45]

Do we know if TUI will be basing some SWG airframes here next year?
If the Max is in service by then I doubt it.

[yeo valley]

If the Max is in service by then I doubt it.
The max aircraft wont be in passenger revenue till at least the second quarter or third quarter due to flight testing and pilot training.

[PDXCWL45]

"English airports to benefit from new £100m covid support package"

https://t.co/qxz4WGcD9f
It'll be interesting to see what the Welsh government does as this politically could untie their hands a bit in providing financial support for CWL.

[PDXCWL45]

Vueling Alicante route is suspended from 7th January until 2nd March.

[fanrailuk]

"English airports to benefit from new £100m covid support package"

https://t.co/qxz4WGcD9f
It'll be interesting to see what the Welsh government does as this politically could untie their hands a bit in providing financial support for CWL.

The Senedd has always provided financial support to airlines in the form of "marketing" - or that's how they claim to have given the support in the past :rolleyes:

Plus CWL has always been in a positive position overall as they are publicly owned and therefore has the public purse on hand, unlike many other airports. Just a shame at this stage they have absolutely nothing to show for having this "upper hand".

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-airport-asks-68m-loan-17843878

However, I would find it very difficult for Westminster to justify giving support to English airports that have multi-million/billion dollar offshore private owners...

[PDXCWL45]

The Senedd has always provided financial support to airlines in the form of "marketing" - or that's how they claim to have given the support in the past :rolleyes:

Plus CWL has always been in a positive position overall as they are publicly owned and therefore has the public purse on hand, unlike many other airports. Just a shame at this stage they have absolutely nothing to show for having this "upper hand".

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-airport-asks-68m-loan-17843878

However, I would find it very difficult for Westminster to justify giving support to English airports that have multi-million/billion dollar offshore private owners...
The Senedd hasn't ever given a penny to Cardiff Airport or airlines. The Welsh government has made a loan facility available to the airport as it's owner and has extended that most recently pre pandemic to which was going to used for things like runway resurfacing and replacement of ILS part of that money was diverted to be used by the airport for the pandemic. This loan is overseen by the Development bank of Wales and scrutinised by Senedd committees.
The WG only has a marketing agreement with Qatar Airways. Any other agreements are between airport and airline.
If Teesside is anything to go by maybe the WG will give the airport some sort of grant to pay their business rates for the year.

[caaardiff]

The Senedd hasn't ever given a penny to Cardiff Airport or airlines. The Welsh government has made a loan facility available to the airport as it's owner and has extended that most recently pre pandemic to which was going to used for things like runway resurfacing and replacement of ILS part of that money was diverted to be used by the airport for the pandemic. This loan is overseen by the Development bank of Wales and scrutinised by Senedd committees.
The WG only has a marketing agreement with Qatar Airways. Any other agreements are between airport and airline.
If Teesside is anything to go by maybe the WG will give the airport some sort of grant to pay their business rates for the year.

Didn't the WG effectively charter Flybe under the Blackbird agreement?

[fanrailuk]

The Senedd hasn't ever given a penny to Cardiff Airport or airlines. The Welsh government has made a loan facility available to the airport as it's owner and has extended that most recently pre pandemic to which was going to used for things like runway resurfacing and replacement of ILS part of that money was diverted to be used by the airport for the pandemic. This loan is overseen by the Development bank of Wales and scrutinised by Senedd committees.
The WG only has a marketing agreement with Qatar Airways. Any other agreements are between airport and airline.
If Teesside is anything to go by maybe the WG will give the airport some sort of grant to pay their business rates for the year.

"provided financial support" - suggests any form of money given to airlines, whether that be a loan to the airport or any other [marketing] agreement, it's taxpayers money...

[supermarine]

The Senedd hasn't ever given a penny to Cardiff Airport or airlines. The Welsh government has made a loan facility available to the airport as it's owner and has extended that most recently pre pandemic to which was going to used for things like runway resurfacing and replacement of ILS part of that money was diverted to be used by the airport for the pandemic. This loan is overseen by the Development bank of Wales and scrutinised by Senedd committees.
The WG only has a marketing agreement with Qatar Airways. Any other agreements are between airport and airline.
If Teesside is anything to go by maybe the WG will give the airport some sort of grant to pay their business rates for the year.
hahaha dream on.

[PDXCWL45]

Didn't the WG effectively charter Flybe under the Blackbird agreement?
No the deal was between the airport and the airline.

[PDXCWL45]

hahaha dream on.
Dream what? Do you want to dispute anything i said because it's all factually correct.

[caaardiff]

No the deal was between the airport and the airline.

Where do you think the money came from to pay for it? And why do you think the routes created were to specific city routes that were marginal or pretty much loss making?
Regardless of who's name was on the contract, its about who was pulling the strings.

[SWBKCB]

Dream what? Do you want to dispute anything i said because it's all factually correct.

The Senedd hasn't ever given a penny to Cardiff Airport or airlines.

The WG only has a marketing agreement with Qatar Airways.

Isn't there an inconsistency here or have I missed the point?

[PDXCWL45]

No the Senedd is the Parliament it's not the government.
Are people saying that the Palace of Westminster are giving £100 million of support to English airports. No because it's not the UK government is giving the money.
Cardiff Airport has had money from the Welsh government in the form of a loan facility which has been increased over time. With the UK government giving money to English airports hopefully that'll mean the Welsh government will now consider doing the same with probability of less political fall out.

[SWBKCB]

I think you are splitting hairs - one way or another Parliament approves all Government expenditure. Conversley, Parliament has no way of giving money to anybody other than through the mechanism of government.

[PDXCWL45]

Not splitting hairs. The Senedd does not own Cardiff Airport the Welsh government does. The Senedd overseas the Welsh government and it's action's and holds the WG accountable but it doesn't give money to the airport. That comes from the government.

[TOM100]

Wherever the money is coming from CWL needs some good news about routes. I said on another forum CWL was looking like a Teeside and was shot down - even Teeside is getting some good news
now ! I think any road to recovery is looking like a very long one without some creativity and aggression from the management team.

Maybe they have something up their sleeve ? I still maintain that only FR can turn things around (quickly) once the vaccine (and hopefully recovery) gets rolled out. Still can’t see QR coming back - even if still on sale.

[SWBKCB]

I might not agree with PDXCWL45 about everything, but at least he can spell Teesside.... :ok: