Cardiff-2

[PDXCWL45]

Not quite Cardiff but close. A new MRO hangar is to be built at St Athan. Initially it looks like a temporary one capable of housing up to a 738 will be built and then a more permanent one.
https://ukaviation.news/new-mro-hangar-to-be-built-at-st-athan/

[runway30]

Not quite Cardiff but close. A new MRO hangar is to be built at St Athan. Initially it looks like a temporary one capable of housing up to a 738 will be built and then a more permanent one.
https://ukaviation.news/new-mro-hangar-to-be-built-at-st-athan/

I can’t help but point out that they had a really nice MRO facility which is now a car factory.

[Buster the Bear]

They still have an MRO.

https://caerdav.com/

[PDXCWL45]

I can’t help but point out that they had a really nice MRO facility which is now a car factory.
Yes and they are building more. Also plans for a paint shop I believe and some sort of training centre.

[PDXCWL45]

They still have an MRO.

https://caerdav.com/
Yes and they are adding more.

[runway30]

Yes and they are adding more.
In the rush to prove your vast knowledge you completely missed the point. They had a building, now it is a car factory. A car factory doesn't need an active runway, big opening doors or the building height of a hangar.

[taffyhammer]

Unfortunately that particular hangar, was incompatible with the maintenance of commercial aircraft mainly due insufficient building height and the low load weight of the floor.

[runway30]

Unfortunately that particular hangar, was incompatible with the maintenance of commercial aircraft mainly due insufficient building height and the low load weight of the floor.

Where does that come from? This is a report of the original PFI procurement

The aircraft hangar will occupy 45,000 square metres and will consist of a 48 bay fast-jet, deep maintenance hangar with full support facilities. The design will be able to accommodate a wide range of military and civil aircraft including C130, A320 and B737 aircraft. The design is also flexible enough to allow for future changes in service requirements.

[taffyhammer]

I had left the RAF by the time this was built, some former colleagues informed me that what was built was only suitable for fast jet maintenance giving the reasons I had previously posted, Even though RAF St Athan lost the contract to maintain these aircraft. A number of MRO companies over the years have been and gone through the St Athan site, none of them have considered using this hangar?

[runway30]

Taff, the strategy for the site was made in Wales, control of the building remained with the English. I think you will find that the problem was political rather than technical.

[PDXCWL45]

In the rush to prove your vast knowledge you completely missed the point. They had a building, now it is a car factory. A car factory doesn't need an active runway, big opening doors or the building height of a hangar.
I would say Caerdav and Ecube are the ones needing the runway and who knows who else in the future.

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff is due a PPE flight at 13.00 today from Cambodia.
https://twitter.com/cardiffonline/status/1255014381567397888?s=19

[jon01]

Cardiff is due a PPE flight at 13.00 today from Cambodia.
https://twitter.com/cardiffonline/status/1255014381567397888?s=19

VP-BOY B763

[PDXCWL45]

VP-BOY B763
There should be another 2 flights later in the week.
https://twitter.com/WelshGovernment/status/1255039469058772992?s=19

[bravoromeosierra]

VP-BOY B763

Are you sure? Pretty sure all that is carrying is Russian tourists from a week or two on a beach in SEA and it seems to be heading towards Moscow.

Edit: Mistaken

[PDXCWL45]

Are you sure? Pretty sure all that is carrying is Russian tourists from a week or two on a beach in SEA and it seems to be heading towards Moscow.
https://ukaviation.news/first-special-ppe-flight-for-wales-to-arrive-at-cardiff-airport/
According to the article it's correct. Further flights will come from China.

[bravoromeosierra]

https://ukaviation.news/first-special-ppe-flight-for-wales-to-arrive-at-cardiff-airport/
According to the article it's correct. Further flights will come from China.

Ah fair enough! I see it has now changed trajectory towards the UK.

[PDXCWL45]

Ah fair enough! I see it has now changed trajectory towards the UK.
Its now just over Belarus. Going to be a long flight about 14 hours in total I reckon.

[PDXCWL45]

200,000 items of PPE and 11 tonnes of medical freight altogether from Cambodia.
https://twitter.com/fmwales/status/1255144673242312705?s=19
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2020/04/28/cardiff-airport-welcomes-ppe-freight-for-welsh-nhs/

[PDXCWL45]

https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Airport/status/1255227071506366467?s=19

[PDXCWL45]

CAA Stats March 2020
29,346 passengers used the airport in March down 70.4% on 2019.
Rolling year was 1,579,366 down 0.4% on 2019.
Atms were 439 down 63.9% on 2019.

The effect of losing Flybe and the start of the COVID_19 crisis really shows.

[PDXCWL45]

https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Airport/status/1257636166070947840?s=19

[fanrailuk]

Seems the Qatar Airways service has been removed from sale for the remainder of Summer 2020.

It will recommence on Monday 26 October at 5 x weekly.

[PDXCWL45]

Seems the Qatar Airways service has been removed from sale for the remainder of Summer 2020.

It will recommence on Monday 26 October at 5 x weekly.
Looks like BHX as well.

[inOban]

Looks like BHX as well.
EDI still showing as July 1st

[PDXCWL45]

EDI still showing as July 1st
It looks like Heathrow, Manchester, Edinburgh and Dublin will still operate.

[PDXCWL45]

Another PPE flight today.
https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Airport/status/1260140109518770176?s=19

[PDXCWL45]

Looks like Loganair have dropped Edinburgh and Glasgow.

[fanrailuk]

Seems the MLA service by Ryanair has been cut for the remainder of S2020 and due to restart on 25 October.

All other FR routes are to recommence July and August....

BUT of course, everything is subject to change!

[PDXCWL45]

Obviously this could all change but these are the dates i've found that the individual airlines will start back up at CWL.
Eastern Airways look like they are due to start both Anglesey and Teesside/Aberdeen on the 15th June.
Vueling are down to start all 3 routes on 1st July.
Ryanair are down to start on the 6th July but will only operate 3 out of 4 routes.
KLM will return on the 4th July.
Qatar Airways won't return until 26th October.
It looks like TUI are down to start on the 12th June.

[CWL757]

Obviously this could all change but these are the dates i've found that the individual airlines will start back up at CWL.
Eastern Airways look like they are due to start both Anglesey and Teesside/Aberdeen on the 15th June.
Vueling are down to start all 3 routes on 1st July.
Ryanair are down to start on the 6th July but will only operate 3 out of 4 routes.
KLM will return on the 4th July.
Qatar Airways won't return until 26th October.
It looks like TUI are down to start on the 12th June.
Is TUI still planning on using 3 based aircraft and the Alba Star/freebird?

[PDXCWL45]

Is TUI still planning on using 3 based aircraft and the Alba Star/freebird?
As far as I know yes with the exception of Freebird Turkish flights.

[taffyhammer]

Unlikely TUI will operate any revenue flights whilst the 14 day return to UK quarantine is in place. One way travel will likely return prior to charter flights whilst the quarantine rules remain.

[cymru]

So Tui and KLM both booking from 1st Aug. I wonder if they will bring any of these forward?
It would be a good time to get people flying through the airport if they could guarantee some flights.

[PDXCWL45]

So Tui and KLM both booking from 1st Aug. I wonder if they will bring any of these forward?
It would be a good time to get people flying through the airport if they could guarantee some flights.
Pretty sure they won't. At the moment Ryanair is due back on the 4th July I think and Eastern on the 13th. Vueling are due back in August and Qatar at the end of October. Loganair won't be returning.

[fanrailuk]

Seems the Senedd don’t want Ryanair starting their flights so soon...

Airline asked to postpone foreign flights (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53245880)

[bycrewlgw]

Seems the Senedd don’t want Ryanair starting their flights so soon...

Airline asked to postpone foreign flights (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53245880)

Does Wales still have the 5 mile rule? If so will put restrictions on a lot of their customer base.

[TOM100]

Until Monday there is the 5 mile guidance (which nobody sticks to). If they can’t fly from CWL Welsh travellers will just go to BRS/BHX/MAN ! A good chunk of the rural Welsh don’t even live within 5 miles of their nearest supermarket/pharmacy so it is pretty non sensical.

[Midland Alpha9]

Seems the Senedd don’t want Ryanair starting their flights so soon...

Airline asked to postpone foreign flights (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53245880)
You just couldn't make it up from this totally inept government! They are incapable of making a decision to go to the toilet if they had the brown smelly stuff running down their legs!!
No doubt it will all be Westminster's fault when the jobs disappear meanwhile people will ignore the rules and depart to BRS very helpful for CWL.

[Letsflycwl]

Someone on the Eastern Airways webpage has referenced both BHD & DUB being possible new Eastern destinations from CWL.

They also refer to the recruitment advertised for CWL (prior to the coronavirus pandemic)

Wishful thinking or a slight possibility??

[PDXCWL45]

Someone on the Eastern Airways webpage has referenced both BHD & DUB being possible new Eastern destinations from CWL.

They also refer to the recruitment advertised for CWL (prior to the coronavirus pandemic)

Wishful thinking or a slight possibility??
Out of all the airlines Eastern is probably the most likeliest to take up the routes from Cardiff imo.

[DUB19]

Someone on the Eastern Airways webpage has referenced both BHD & DUB being possible new Eastern destinations from CWL.

They also refer to the recruitment advertised for CWL (prior to the coronavirus pandemic)

Wishful thinking or a slight possibility??

Have you got a link for this?

[caaardiff]

Have you got a link for this?

I think its the Eastern thread on this site that's being referred to...
[allan1987 (javascript:void(0)) , 28th Jul 2020 17:38
There is an order in for 4 ATR72-600
1 E190 (ER-ECC) has been painted white at East Midlands,
1 JS41 (G-MAJU) has gone to cranfield
looks like G-MAJK (JS41) has been repaired and now back in service
1 E170 Still to come back from storage
more likely to replace G-CDEB (S2000)
the 2 E145 are up for sale
think 2 new routes will be CWL-BHD and CWL-DUB
There is only 2 ATR72's both are at SOU

[Letsflycwl]

Yeah that’s the one, sorry I should have attached it to my posting......there is also another one where someone said about the E190 being based for Sun routes but guess that is a massive long shot hope or wish !! But in fairness the BHD & DUB could be a good shot for the airline but then given the current state of air travel who knows.

[ATNotts]

Yeah that’s the one, sorry I should have attached it to my posting......there is also another one where someone said about the E190 being based for Sun routes but guess that is a massive long shot hope or wish !! But in fairness the BHD & DUB could be a good shot for the airline but then given the current state of air travel who knows.

Does "allan1987" speak for Eastern Airways? Judging by the use of the word "think" in the penultimate line suggests they don't - just possibly an enthusiast wish rather than an airline aspiration.

[PDXCWL45]

Sadly it seems for whatever reason CWL isn't a priority for many airlines at the moment. I'm sure though eventually the likes of Dublin and Belfast and Edinburgh will return hopefully at least by Summer 2021

[bycrewlgw]

Sadly it seems for whatever reason CWL isn't a priority for many airlines at the moment. I'm sure though eventually the likes of Dublin and Belfast and Edinburgh will return hopefully at least by Summer 2021

with State aid rules potentially going next year when we have officially left the EU (trade deal pending), I wonder whether a small Air Wales v3 will appear? While I think there’s better things to spend money on and those in power would need to evaluate what happens with business travel etc, it could be an option.

[ATNotts]

with State aid rules potentially going next year when we have officially left the EU (trade deal pending), I wonder whether a small Air Wales v3 will appear? While I think there’s better things to spend money on and those in power would need to evaluate what happens with business travel etc, it could be an option.

But why. aviation is not a public service, like buses and trains, and if the Welsh government has money to waste on vanity schemes like that I feel sure that many people in Wales would feel there are more deserving causes it could be used for.

[PDXCWL45]

with State aid rules potentially going next year when we have officially left the EU (trade deal pending), I wonder whether a small Air Wales v3 will appear? While I think there’s better things to spend money on and those in power would need to evaluate what happens with business travel etc, it could be an option.
Problem is that the UK government seems to want control over many of the powers returning from the EU and I believe state aid is one of them so it will be a complete unknown what the WG will be able to do state aid wise concerning the airport.

As for a national carrier it would be nice to see an Air Wales again.

[bycrewlgw]

But why. aviation is not a public service, like buses and trains, and if the Welsh government has money to waste on vanity schemes like that I feel sure that many people in Wales would feel there are more deserving causes it could be used for.

oh I know I agree and as I said there are better things to spend money on but, if connectivity attracts more inward investment, more job creation and there is a return to be made then it could be less a vanity project and waste to more a necessity that could get people out of the public sector (of which wales has a high proportion of public sector workers) and into the private. Obviously I don’t know the economics of running an airline and certainly not from CWL.

[ATNotts]

oh I know I agree and as I said there are better things to spend money on but, if connectivity attracts more inward investment, more job creation and there is a return to be made then it could be less a vanity project and waste to more a necessity that could get people out of the public sector (of which wales has a high proportion of public sector workers) and into the private. Obviously I don’t know the economics of running an airline and certainly not from CWL.

The chances of inward investment anywhere outside of London given the double-whammy the UK is headed for, one of which entirely self inflicted, are remote. CWL certainly needs connectivity to N.I, Glasgow and Edinburgh, as well as at least a couple of the major European hubs, one of which (Amsterdam) is already covered. Connectivity into the Aer Lingus transatlantic hub will eventually (after the USA gets Covid-19 under control) also be a must I'd have thought.

[PDXCWL45]

But why. aviation is not a public service, like buses and trains, and if the Welsh government has money to waste on vanity schemes like that I feel sure that many people in Wales would feel there are more deserving causes it could be used for.
But the problem is that the same people who will complain that the money is wasted and that it can be used elsewhere will then complain that CWL is a disgrace of a national airport because it doesn't have the connections to places like Dublin. So whatever WG does they'll complain.
The reality is that the WG doesn't really have the fiscal powers to establish a national carrier.

[HDP]

Any idea why the C130 Hercules from Ohio Air National Guard (164th Airlift Squadron) landed in Cardiff today?

[Link Kilo]

Any idea why the C130 Hercules from Ohio Air National Guard (164th Airlift Squadron) landed in Cardiff today?

There's a relatively new FBO there called Global Trek. They also operate from BFS and have a fair amount of US / Canadian military through there, so I guess GT offering CWL to their existing BFS contacts may be why it landed. I think they were formed by ex-PIK staff (when PIK took handling in house), which is where I assume the US military contacts came from.

[PDXCWL45]

"Edinburgh to Cardiff is just behind, at 304 passengers per day"
https://t.co/iZaSkmCeaZ

[PDXCWL45]

David Walters is the new finance director
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2020/08/11/new-finance-director-confirmed/

[supermarine]

David Walters is the new finance director
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2020/08/11/new-finance-director-confirmed/

320 Departures for the last week at Bristol

27 Departures at Cardiff Its not a Finance Director they need, more like a Funeral Director

[TOM100]

Agreed - airport looks a bit of a basket case at the moment.....

[PDXCWL45]

Difference is that Bristol hasn't lost airline's that provided over have their daily movements between them.

[TOM100]

Doesn’t change the reality though the airport is not looking viable......in the short/medium term. Guess Spencer running this ‘arms length commercial’ organisation will be hoping the WG have patience....,,

[PDXCWL45]

Doesn’t change the reality though the airport is not looking viable......in the short/medium term. Guess Spencer running this ‘arms length commercial’ organisation will be hoping the WG have patience....,,
Of course the WG will have patience. The reality is that CWL got hit by a triple whammy of events but it still has it's core sun routes operation and KLM still going. It'll take time to recover but I'm sure it will.

[TOM100]

Doesn’t change the reality though the airport is not looking viable......in the short/medium term. Guess Spencer running this ‘arms length commercial’ organisation will be hoping the WG have patience....,,

so let’s forget the charade of this being a commercial ‘arms length’ organisation - it isn’t. What happens through the winter ? More taxpayers money thrown at it ?

[PDXCWL45]

so let’s forget the charade of this being a commercial ‘arms length’ organisation - it isn’t. What happens through the winter ? More taxpayers money thrown at it ?
It depends on what the airports needs are i suppose. In the end I'm sure like many airport owners private and public the WG will have to in some way invest in the airport to keep it going or the airport will divert money intended for elsewhere to keep the business going, which also includes St Athan now and Anglesey handling.

[supermarine]

This is utter , utter madness. The new finance director is on an advertised salary of between £85- £90,000 per annum plus an £8k car allowance.

I really despair how this is justified.

[runway30]

This is utter , utter madness. The new finance director is on an advertised salary of between £85- £90,000 per annum plus an £8k car allowance.

I really despair how this is justified.

Challenging work adding up all those losses..................

[PDXCWL45]

This is utter , utter madness. The new finance director is on an advertised salary of between £85- £90,000 per annum plus an £8k car allowance.

I really despair how this is justified.
I believe that the average pay for a finance director is £72000, a lot of companies will have thing's like commision and bonuses and share schemes and profit sharing schemes. So it's probable all the latter have been averaged out and added on to his salary.
Would be interesting to know what the finance director at Bristol is on!

[BHX5DME]

I believe that the average pay for a finance director is £72000, a lot of companies will have thing's like commision and bonuses and share schemes and profit sharing schemes. So it's probable all the latter have been averaged out and added on to his salary.
Would be interesting to know what the finance director at Bristol is on!

I would say that was very cheap for an FD !

[PDXCWL45]

I would say that was very cheap for an FD !
It is a company that had a £20.8 million turnover for 2018-19.

[ATNotts]

I would say that was very cheap for an FD !

I would agree, and an FD would generally be qualified with ACA or similar, so degree level, and it certainly isn't a job for an accounts clerk!

The problem is that some people have no idea about salaries in management position, and frankly if Cardiff Airport has picked up an FD so cheaply, I just hope they're up to the job.

[supermarine]

It is a company that had a £20.8 million turnover for 2018-19.

Two departures today as opposed to 30 exactly a year ago. The airport is truly up against the wall and will be for a long time to come. This appointment would have been acceptable last year ,

I feel if the public purse was not propping up the business, then this position is not tenable for the foreseeable future , there is not enough work for a Financial Director per se.

[JSCL]

Two departures today as opposed to 30 exactly a year ago. The airport is truly up against the wall and will be for a long time to come. This appointment would have been acceptable last year ,

I feel if the public purse was not propping up the business, then this position is not tenable for the foreseeable future , there is not enough work for a Financial Director per se.

I agree that it is most unusual. Given the airport is owned by the Welsh Government, I would have expected this role and associated duties to have been soaked in to centralised teams. It's very unusual I'd say for them to have a direct appointment, unless they're gearing it up for private sale of course.

[PDXCWL45]

I agree that it is most unusual. Given the airport is owned by the Welsh Government, I would have expected this role and associated duties to have been soaked in to centralised teams. It's very unusual I'd say for them to have a direct appointment, unless they're gearing it up for private sale of course.
They run it as a separate commercial business. The WG are the major shareholders, its not a government department.

[PDXCWL45]

Two departures today as opposed to 30 exactly a year ago. The airport is truly up against the wall and will be for a long time to come. This appointment would have been acceptable last year ,

I feel if the public purse was not propping up the business, then this position is not tenable for the foreseeable future , there is not enough work for a Financial Director per se.
And we know why. Are you really blaming the airport management for Flybe and Thomas Cook collapse and a global pandemic?
You also need to realise that the company isn't just Cardiff Airport its also St Athan airfield and it's business park as well.
As for departures Exeter has 3 today, Norwich 2, Bournemouth 3, Southampton 8, Newquay 2 or 5 depends on Skybus, LBA 9, NCL 14 and DSA 10 according to FR24 most a lot lower than last year so CWL is not alone and yes will no doubt take a longer to recover than most of those airports.

[SWBKCB]

Are you really blaming the airport management for Flybe and Thomas Cook collapse and a global pandemic?

No, but there is a link between airport performance and the impact of weak airlines going under.

[PDXCWL45]

No, but there is a link between airport performance and the impact of weak airlines going under.
Well unfortunately if Cardiff wants routes like Edinburgh and Dublin and Jersey in general it doesn't have much choice but to look to the weak airlines because the strong one Easyjet won't touch it because of their ops at Bristol.

[TOM100]

PDX - u are a tad delusional. How can you say this is a commercial arm when it is being propped up left, right and centre by the WG ? The current management structure and costs is a joke. Please tell me how this ‘commercial’ organisation is reducing costs (permanently) and funding itself in the wake of a two thirds plus slump in business ? If I were a ‘commercial’ owner I would be seeking buyers to build Barrett or Wimpey homes (in the absence of any viable or public plans to at least make the business cash flow neutral) to realise an asset. the airport seems devoid of any strategy except the begging bowl to the WG !

i would be interested to hear your plans and thoughts to stop the airport burning cash in the next 2-4 years and a comparable ‘commercial’ business that would/could sustain such losses with little or no liquidity ?

maybe you know different to us how ‘commercial’ businesses are run.....,

isnt this supposed to be a business, not a plane spotters project ?

Controversial ? Just stating the facts...

[runway30]

And we know why. Are you really blaming the airport management for Flybe and Thomas Cook collapse and a global pandemic?
You also need to realise that the company isn't just Cardiff Airport its also St Athan airfield and it's business park as well.
As for departures Exeter has 3 today, Norwich 2, Bournemouth 3, Southampton 8, Newquay 2 or 5 depends on Skybus, LBA 9, NCL 14 and DSA 10 according to FR24 most a lot lower than last year so CWL is not alone and yes will no doubt take a longer to recover than most of those airports.

I cannot agree with this. If I was signing a ten year deal that involved me supporting the airline (Flybe) for the beginning of the contract and make my profits at the end of the contract I would want to know what the strategy was for the airline for the next ten years including fleet planning and the resilience of the balance sheet to make sure that I could collect from them at the end of the contract. I don’t know whether they asked the question but they certainly didn’t get the answer.

[TOM100]

I cannot agree with this. If I was signing a ten year deal that involved me supporting the airline (Flybe) for the beginning of the contract and make my profits at the end of the contract I would want to know what the strategy was for the airline for the next ten years including fleet planning and the resilience of the balance sheet to make sure that I could collect from them at the end of the contract. I don’t know whether they asked the question but they certainly didn’t get the answer.

and this is business - stuff happens. I would blame a management team that put all its eggs in a basket and didn’t have a risk management/register to mitigate against any ‘shocks’ - it’s not like TCX and BE weren’t on shaky grounds for an extended period of time.

I would expect the BRS FD to earn a lot more - a highly profitable business, run on true commercial reality with a substantially higher turnover. A £20m t/o business is a small business !

when I see a business plan to drastically take out cost with a coherent plan for the future I will get behind them -,whilst just relying on the Welsh taxpayer to subsidise them I will fight tooth and nail via my AM/FM/MP to hold them to account and their feet to the fire.

[runway30]

Just out of interest, I include an extract from a letter from the Government to the Senedd Public Accounts Committee.

‘In terms of the recently agreed extended commercial loan facility, I would like to reassure the Committee that a range of downside scenario models were included within the financial due diligence which informed our decision to award the loan – these scenarios included a “catastrophic event” resulting in significantly reduced traffic for an extended period, and a significant operator stopping its operations at CIAL.’

It shows that the Government were happy to lend on commercial terms even in the circumstances that we know find ourselves in.

[TOM100]

Just out of interest, I include an extract from a letter from the Government to the Senedd Public Accounts Committee.

‘In terms of the recently agreed extended commercial loan facility, I would like to reassure the Committee that a range of downside scenario models were included within the financial due diligence which informed our decision to award the loan – these scenarios included a “catastrophic event” resulting in significantly reduced traffic for an extended period, and a significant operator stopping its operations at CIAL.’

It shows that the Government were happy to lend on commercial terms even in the circumstances that we know find ourselves in.

interesting - but what if they have no means to repay such a loan ? Then what ? A slightly rhetorical question - I know what would happen in the ‘real’ world......

[PDXCWL45]

PDX - u are a tad delusional. How can you say this is a commercial arm when it is being propped up left, right and centre by the WG ?
It is a business that they own and like any shareholders they can choose to invest in the business or not. They don't do the day to day running and it looks to me like they leave any strategic planning of where the business is going up to the management. As you consider the management a joke then surely you should be happy that there are changes a foot!
As for the future in the next 2 to 5 years, as I'm just a planespotter and not a business guru I'd be asking how can the airport diversify its business through St Athan and maximising the potential of the land it holds to replace the lost income from reduced passengers while looking to build those passenger numbers back up.
As for calling Redrow to build houses ask how would it look to Welsh and foreign business and to inbound tourism if Wales doesn't have an airport?

[PDXCWL45]

PDX - u are a tad delusional. How can you say this is a commercial arm when it is being propped up left, right and centre by the WG ? The current management structure and costs is a joke. Please tell me how this ‘commercial’ organisation is reducing costs (permanently) and funding itself in the wake of a two thirds plus slump in business ? If I were a ‘commercial’ owner I would be seeking buyers to build Barrett or Wimpey homes (in the absence of any viable or public plans to at least make the business cash flow neutral) to realise an asset. the airport seems devoid of any strategy except the begging bowl to the WG !
isnt this supposed to be a business, not a plane spotters project ?s...
I'm curious to know what you think that the airport management should be doing to get the airport to profit in the next 2 to 5 years so it doesn't have to use loans from the WG?

[TOM100]

It is a business that they own and like any shareholders they can choose to invest in the business or not. They don't do the day to day running and it looks to me like they leave any strategic planning of where the business is going up to the management. As you consider the management a joke then surely you should be happy that there are changes a foot!
As for the future in the next 2 to 5 years, as I'm just a planespotter and not a business guru I'd be asking how can the airport diversify its business through St Athan and maximising the potential of the land it holds to replace the lost income from reduced passengers while looking to build those passenger numbers back up.
As for calling Redrow to build houses ask how would it look to Welsh and foreign business and to inbound tourism if Wales doesn't have an airport?

Agree, Wales needs an airport. However it also needs to provide other essential services for residents and not an airport at any cost.

it also needs a focussed airport that is well run, on top of costs (especially when revenue falls of a cliff) and attempting to take some control of its own destiny (not blaming external factors).

if they can’t do this, can’t formulate a strategy and right size with the current climate then Wales will just have to be served from BRS, BHX and MAN.

if we are to subsidise heavily a £20m (small) business then I expect them to right size, slim down their senior management and other staff costs (minimal to reflect the size of the business) and reduce the burden to minimal on the Welsh taxpayer. I don’t believe a business of this size needs a Chairman, CEO, FD, Director of Ops, Head of HR, Head of Safety, Head of Commercial (!). to start with. This kind of structure might suit BRS and BHX but not this little airport on a £20m t/o. Last time I looked BRS t/o was around £85m and BHX £145m !

[SWBKCB]

It shows that the Government were happy to lend on commercial terms even in the circumstances that we know find ourselves in.

This approach has always baffled me - if the loan is on commercial terms, why borrow from WG, why not use a bank like the commercial business it purports to be? It's not like WG doesn't have other uses for the money

It is a business that they own and like any shareholders they can choose to invest in the business or not.

As for calling Redrow to build houses ask how would it look to Welsh and foreign business and to inbound tourism if Wales doesn't have an airport?

There's the rub, isn't it? If it was a commercial business, why would they be bothered? If it is an instrument of WG's industrial policy, say so.

[PDXCWL45]

interesting - but what if they have no means to repay such a loan ? Then what ? A slightly rhetorical question - I know what would happen in the ‘real’ world......
As shareholder they can either convert the loans to equity or just defer them or issue a new loan to pay the other loan.

[TOM100]

As shareholder they can either convert the loans to equity or just defer them or issue a new loan to pay the other loan.

but if they have no income/profit after costs how do they pay any loan ? If they are vastly insolvent, where is this equity ?

[PDXCWL45]

Agree, Wales needs an airport.
if they can’t do this, can’t formulate a strategy and right size with the current climate then Wales will just have to be served from BRS, BHX and MAN.

That will never happen. No WG even a Tory one could consider Wales not having and airport and just be served from BRS, BHX and MAN.
As for the management there does seem to be quite a lot of them! So apart from cutting a few managers what else do you think they should be doing going forward?

[PDXCWL45]

This approach has always baffled me - if the loan is on commercial terms, why borrow from WG, why not use a bank like the commercial business it purports to be? It's not like WG doesn't have other uses for the money





There's the rub, isn't it? If it was a commercial business, why would they be bothered? If it is an instrument of WG's industrial policy, say so.
Because they are government owned any commercial bank loan effects the WG block grant i believe.

[TOM100]

This approach has always baffled me - if the loan is on commercial terms, why borrow from WG, why not use a bank like the commercial business it purports to be? It's not like WG doesn't have other uses for the money





There's the rub, isn't it? If it was a commercial business, why would they be bothered? If it is an instrument of WG's industrial policy, say so.

because I suspect no commercial lender would touch them with a proverbial very long barge pole. Put it this way:-

you go to a lender and say I would like to borrow £x million for ongoing general expenses, but my outgoings are significantly higher than my incomings (I suspect in the case of CWL- in the absence of any mitigation) they are significantly higher, oh and I have these other ‘commercial’ loans (WG) I need to repay and the same lender also has a £52m interest in my other assets (WG).

oh and by the way I have no future visibility on any future income (we have had triple shocks you know - not our fault) and no real future strategy for either cost or income but we are important you know !

and I have this really fat employee costs and management structure - we are a proper airport you know.

I think I know what the answer would be......

[MerchantVenturer]

Borrowing by the Welsh Government does not appear to affect its Westminster block grant as long as it keeps within its borrowing powers limit. There is a general provision to meet a current shortfall in receipts from devolved taxes, thus:

The current borrowing powers of the Welsh Ministers are set out in section 121 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 as amended by the Wales Acts 2014. They may borrow funds from the UK Government for the purpose of meeting a temporary excess of sums paid out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund over sums paid into that Fund, any amounts it appears to them are required by them for the purpose of providing a working balance in the Welsh Consolidated Fund and any amounts which in accordance with rules determined by the Treasury are required by the Welsh Ministers to meet current expenditure because of a shortfall in receipts from devolved taxes, or from income tax charged by virtue of a Welsh rate resolution, against forecast receipts.

In addition there is a power, inserted by the Wales Act 2014, to borrow money from the UK Government for capital expenditure. There is a total borrowing cap of £1 billion on this borrowing, of which no more than £150 million can be borrowed annually.

Commercial lenders can also be a source for the capital expenditure borrowing.

https://senedd.wales/laid%20documents/cr-ld12846/cr-ld12846%20-e.pdf

https://law.gov.wales/constitution-government/government-in-wales/finance/?lang=en#/constitution-government/government-in-wales/finance/?tab=overview&lang=en

[PDXCWL45]

Interesting yet I'm pretty sure at one of the Senedd briefings I think it was the CFO Huw Lewis said that it effects the WG block grant.

[TOM100]

That will never happen. No WG even a Tory one could consider Wales not having and airport and just be served from BRS, BHX and MAN.
As for the management there does seem to be quite a lot of them! So apart from cutting a few managers what else do you think they should be doing going forward?

PDX - believe it or not (and as a regular user) I would like to see the airport succeed.

what riles me is the current apparent lack of inaction, too heavy management and apparent lack (or thinking) of any future strategy.

without seeing their accounts it is difficult to say what I would do.

certainly strip all costs out to the absolute bare minimum to operate safely until business returns (and I don’t just mean furlough).

I flew through CWL 2 weeks ago (2 flights operating that day) and I saw the current MD selling coffee and the Ops Director nearby - if they have time to do this then they should be able to combine senior roles into a couple - at least temporarily.

then ruthlessly look at all operating costs.

As to the income side they need to offer aggressive deals to carriers to drive airport use and footfall.

Look to diversify to other airfield use options.

Maybe they are doing these things but as a publicly owned asset I expect them to tell us like a Plc would tell shareholders.

[caaardiff]

Agree, Wales needs an airport. However it also needs to provide other essential services for residents and not an airport at any cost.

it also needs a focussed airport that is well run, on top of costs (especially when revenue falls of a cliff) and attempting to take some control of its own destiny (not blaming external factors).

if they can’t do this, can’t formulate a strategy and right size with the current climate then Wales will just have to be served from BRS, BHX and MAN.

if we are to subsidise heavily a £20m (small) business then I expect them to right size, slim down their senior management and other staff costs (minimal to reflect the size of the business) and reduce the burden to minimal on the Welsh taxpayer. I don’t believe a business of this size needs a Chairman, CEO, FD, Director of Ops, Head of HR, Head of Safety, Head of Commercial (!). to start with. This kind of structure might suit BRS and BHX but not this little airport on a £20m t/o. Last time I looked BRS t/o was around £85m and BHX £145m !

I would say that the majority of the roles are key roles that are required in any business. If the Airport can be run with a senior management team like this, but doesn't have the tier of middle management and unnecessary "manager" roles that many businesses have, including the likes of BRS and BHX, then i don't see what the problem is.
Without seeing an exact structure from top to bottom, we can't really make judgement on the setup. Also having a Management team that specify in the field they operate under brings better experience and knowledge. Aside from maybe Chairperson & MD/CEO, none of those roles are really linked in any way to be able to combine them.

Also don't forget we are still really in the unknown & unpredictable territory. Many services are in house and there have already been redundancies/reduced hours. Personally I really don't think they are sitting back, drinking coffee and watching tax payers money take off from an empty runway like some people on here make out. They have already diversified in many ways before Covid19 hit, this was ever since the WG bought it. There's only so much noticeable diversification that can be done when things keep going wrong like they are.

[PDXCWL45]

PDX - believe it or not (and as a regular user) I would like to see the airport succeed.

what riles me is the current apparent lack of inaction, too heavy management and apparent lack (or thinking) of any future strategy.

without seeing their accounts it is difficult to say what I would do.

certainly strip all costs out to the absolute bare minimum to operate safely until business returns (and I don’t just mean furlough).

I flew through CWL 2 weeks ago (2 flights operating that day) and I saw the current MD selling coffee and the Ops Director nearby - if they have time to do this then they should be able to combine senior roles into a couple - at least temporarily.

then ruthlessly look at all operating costs.

As to the income side they need to offer aggressive deals to carriers to drive airport use and footfall.

Look to diversify to other airfield use options.

Maybe they are doing these things but as a publicly owned asset I expect them to tell us like a Plc would tell shareholders.
With regards to accountability they do make yearly report's to the Senedd and get scrutinsed by committee and had to do the same for the most recent loan.
Personally I think it says something about ethos if the management in a time of crisis is willing to pitch in at the coal face.
As for operating costs what can they cut? A lot of their costs come from regulation, the other costs is of course staff. CWL as far as I know hasn't cut any yet.
The new finance director is replacing Huw Lewis the CFO.
Airline wise it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next year with demand down, I'd have thought that they'd be trying to persuade TUI especially not to cut flights or based aircraft for 2021.

[TOM100]

With regards to accountability they do make yearly report's to the Senedd and get scrutinsed by committee and had to do the same for the most recent loan.
Personally I think it says something about ethos if the management in a time of crisis is willing to pitch in at the coal face.
As for operating costs what can they cut? A lot of their costs come from regulation, the other costs is of course staff. CWL as far as I know hasn't cut any yet.
The new finance director is replacing Huw Lewis the CFO.
Airline wise it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next year with demand down, I'd have thought that they'd be trying to persuade TUI especially not to cut flights or based aircraft for 2021.

PDX - and that’s the rub of my argument - what are they doing to take cost out (yes staff including Senior Management) - someone needs to hold them and the WG to account as this is taxpayers money. In addition to the roles I mention above, last time I looked there were also non execs, Head of marketing, terminal manager and this is before we get to the front line people.

If you assume revenue is down c60% (probably more) in the current FY that means this is an £8m business with some days a single pax flight and on a good day, maybe 6. This will reduce significantly in a couple of months (as Winter scheds kick in).

How can this structure (and cost) be justified in the current business climate ?


I was being deliberately controversial about the MD serving coffee (but this is true) - the actions of this business do not appear to be one of a business in commercial distress and acting like a ‘normal’ commercial business to take immediate cost action.

Yes, some roles are regulatory but given low pax numbers (and no visibility of growth from anywhere) - the business, like any business, needs to right size. Where is the commercial oversight and scrutiny coming from ?

Aren’t the people of Wales entitled to ask these questions ? I just hope they have a plan as Furlough tapers off or I will be asking serious questions of my AM (who happens to also be FM) and opposition AMs as to accountability.

[PDXCWL45]

PDX - and that’s the rub of my argument - what are they doing to take cost out (yes staff including Senior Management) - someone needs to hold them and the WG to account as this is taxpayers money. In addition to the roles I mention above, last time I looked there were also non execs, Head of marketing, terminal manager and this is before we get to the front line people.

If you assume revenue is down c60% (probably more) in the current FY that means this is an £8m business with some days a single pax flight and on a good day, maybe 6. This will reduce significantly in a couple of months (as Winter scheds kick in).

How can this structure (and cost) be justified in the current business climate ?


I was being deliberately controversial about the MD serving coffee (but this is true) - the actions of this business do not appear to be one of a business in commercial distress and acting like a ‘normal’ commercial business to take immediate cost action.

Yes, some roles are regulatory but given low pax numbers (and no visibility of growth from anywhere) - the business, like any business, needs to right size. Where is the commercial oversight and scrutiny coming from ?

Aren’t the people of Wales entitled to ask these questions ? I just hope they have a plan as Furlough tapers off or I will be asking serious questions of my AM (who happens to also be FM) and opposition AMs as to accountability.
Well come winter TUI should be operating a daily flight except Wednesdays, KLM back to 3 daily, Qatar and Vueling should be operating 5 weekly flights each with Ryanair 1 weekly Malta. Eastern should be back with 10 weekly VLY. Doesn't seem like much but better than nothing.
When it comes to summer 2021 we will have to see what happens with airlines and by how much demand picks up.
Replacing the lost Flybe network does look like it'll be a challenge for Cardiff.
Loganair seem to have run a mile from Edinburgh and Glasgow for whatever reason.
Aer lingus obviously doesn't see CWL as a core route for Belfast and no doubt will be hoping to prop up its Dublin and Cork routes at Bristol with Welsh passengers rather than flying directly to Wales. Same with Ryanair on Dublin.
Blue Islands seem focused on Exeter and Southampton and may well be hoping Welsh passengers top up their Jersey route at Bristol as well.
Eastern might be the best option but at the moment they seem to be concerned with Southampton and Teesside.
As for scrutiny short of setting up a committee or panel or holding some sort of inquiry i don't see how the airport can get more scrutiny than it is getting now.
I think with CWL we are going to have to trust the management as its going to take a while for the airport to recover sadly.

[TOM100]

Well come winter TUI should be operating a daily flight except Wednesdays, KLM back to 3 daily, Qatar and Vueling should be operating 5 weekly flights each with Ryanair 1 weekly Malta. Eastern should be back with 10 weekly VLY. Doesn't seem like much but better than nothing.
When it comes to summer 2021 we will have to see what happens with airlines and by how much demand picks up.
Replacing the lost Flybe network does look like it'll be a challenge for Cardiff.
Loganair seem to have run a mile from Edinburgh and Glasgow for whatever reason.
Aer lingus obviously doesn't see CWL as a core route for Belfast and no doubt will be hoping to prop up its Dublin and Cork routes at Bristol with Welsh passengers rather than flying directly to Wales. Same with Ryanair on Dublin.
Blue Islands seem focused on Exeter and Southampton and may well be hoping Welsh passengers top up their Jersey route at Bristol as well.
Eastern might be the best option but at the moment they seem to be concerned with Southampton and Teesside.
As for scrutiny short of setting up a committee or panel or holding some sort of inquiry i don't see how the airport can get more scrutiny than it is getting now.
I think with CWL we are going to have to trust the management as its going to take a while for the airport to recover sadly.

i sincerely hope you are correct about the winter prospects - although I think that is very optimistic. However, imo, with my business perspective even that level of activity does not justify the very heavy cost and management my structure of this business.

i guess we’ll have to disagree on the airport management and strategy as you will probably have gathered, I don’t have trust and confidence in the commercial leadership of the airport. Time will tell.

[PDXCWL45]

i sincerely hope you are correct about the winter prospects - although I think that is very optimistic.

i guess we’ll have to disagree on the airport management and strategy as you will probably have gathered, I don’t have trust and confidence in the commercial leadership of the airport. Time will tell.
That's whats onsale the last time I looked.

[TOM100]

That's whats onsale the last time I looked.

I think the last few months have demonstrated what is on sale and what actually flies can be quite different. TUI are still selling Spain, Canaries and Balearics for the end of this month - will they fly ?

[PDXCWL45]

I think the last few months have demonstrated what is on sale and what actually flies can be quite different. TUI are still selling Spain, Canaries and Balearics for the end of this month - will they fly ?
Yep there is a possibility that some flights won't operate but that is completely out of the airports control. I think the last 6 months has shown that the airport is completely at the mercy of airlines.

[ATNotts]

I think the last few months have demonstrated what is on sale and what actually flies can be quite different. TUI are still selling Spain, Canaries and Balearics for the end of this month - will they fly ?

Given current data, and the rapid rise in cases at the Balearics now, not a chance. They should be honest with the travelling public and stop taking booking for the rest of the summer season, not just from Cardiff, but for the whole UK. I could be so disingenuous as to suggest it's a blatant cash flow improvement exercise to carry on taking people's money for holidays they can be pretty certain won't operate.

[TOM100]

Yep there is a possibility that some flights won't operate but that is completely out of the airports control. I think the last 6 months has shown that the airport is completely at the mercy of airlines.

i don’t fully agree with that last statement - the airport is fully in charge of a large chunk of their operating expenses and commercial activities. That’s like saying my local shop can do nothing unless customers walk through his door (which in the literal sense of course is correct) but if he has a commercial strategy to offer a diversified range of products, keeps his pricing keen, markets his shop intelligently and keeps his overhead costs low so he can invest in the former - he stands a better chance of getting people through the door and making money.

if the customers don’t come in the volume he needs - he needs to adapt by reducing cost to adjust to the volume reality, adjust his strategy, go out of business or hand over to someone else with new ideas and more forward thinking who can make a success of his business. He doesn’t have the option of saying well what can I do I am at the complete mercy of the customers who won’t come !

[PDXCWL45]

i don’t fully agree with that last statement - the airport is fully in charge of a large chunk of their operating expenses and commercial activities. That’s like saying my local shop can do nothing unless customers walk through his door (which in the literal sense of course is correct) but if he has a commercial strategy to offer a diversified range of products, keeps his pricing keen, markets his shop intelligently and keeps his overhead costs low so he can invest in the former - he stands a better chance of getting people through the door and making money.

if the customers don’t come in the volume he needs - he needs to adapt by reducing cost to adjust to the volume reality, adjust his strategy, go out of business or hand over to someone else with new ideas and more forward thinking who can make a success of his business. He doesn’t have the option of saying well what can I do I am at the complete mercy of the customers who won’t come !
But the local shop owner can stock his shop with the products he needs to attract his customers into the store. Brand's like coca cola or walkers don't tell him that he can only stock certain items or that he can't stock their brand at all because they want his customers to go to the tesco down the road. Unlike an airport which is dependent on the airline choosing to fly from there.

[ATNotts]

i don’t fully agree with that last statement - the airport is fully in charge of a large chunk of their operating expenses and commercial activities. That’s like saying my local shop can do nothing unless customers walk through his door (which in the literal sense of course is correct) but if he has a commercial strategy to offer a diversified range of products, keeps his pricing keen, markets his shop intelligently and keeps his overhead costs low so he can invest in the former - he stands a better chance of getting people through the door and making money.

if the customers don’t come in the volume he needs - he needs to adapt by reducing cost to adjust to the volume reality, adjust his strategy, go out of business or hand over to someone else with new ideas and more forward thinking who can make a success of his business. He doesn’t have the option of saying well what can I do I am at the complete mercy of the customers who won’t come !

And the problem with their operating expenses is that they do not fall in proportion to the numbers of passengers the airport handles, and the balance sheet only worsens if they try and buy their way out of trouble by pretty well paying airlines to operate from the airport. I just wonder how much did Flybe actually contribute to the airport's koffers. I would suggest that directly it did little, and the business routes such as the domestics are largely travelled by people who don't spend in the shops and may not even park in the car parks.

Then the other issue you have is the relative wealth of the catchment area, and it is undeniable that the per capita income on the English side of the Severn Bridge, and the catchment for Bristol is very much higher than you'll find in South Wales. That means that airlines have to think very hard before investing equipment and marketing to a spread of destinations such as Bristol enjoys. Some routes that are good earners from Bristol probably wouldn't work from Cardiff. That's a shame, and it will take a lot of hard work from the Welsh Government to get the inward investment that will lead to increased wealth, and help Cardiff airport.

That doesn't mean for a moment that Cardiff is a basket case, things were going in the right direction until the double whammy of Flybe's demise and Covid-19 reared their ugly head. Cardiff is probably no worse off than many UK airports at the moment, aside of probably EMA because of it's cargo operation. Passenger wise it's still dire.

[caaardiff]

Is the senior Management team also running St Athan and the passenger services at Valley?

[TOM100]

Is the senior Management team also running St Athan and the passenger services at Valley?

i believe they are but those operations are chickenfeed in the scheme of things and there hasn’t been a regular pax operation at Valley for months.....I get other airports are in a similar position but are their management structures as heavy and being paid for by taxpayers ? I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.....

[bycrewlgw]

i believe they are but those operations are chickenfeed in the scheme of things and there hasn’t been a regular pax operation at Valley for months.....I get other airports are in a similar position but are their management structures as heavy and being paid for by taxpayers ? I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.....

i understand that the contention of CWL being public owned and managers paid for by the taxpayer etc but it really has been done to death on this forum. Maybe a letter or email to your AM would be more appropriate and beneficial than an online forum?

[PDXCWL45]

Is the senior Management team also running St Athan and the passenger services at Valley?
Yes they are.

[caaardiff]

i believe they are but those operations are chickenfeed in the scheme of things and there hasn’t been a regular pax operation at Valley for months.....I get other airports are in a similar position but are their management structures as heavy and being paid for by taxpayers ? I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.....
My point being, even without passenger operations, things still need to be done, especially at CWL and St Athan. So the senior team you seem adamant are useless and inefficient are effectively running 3 businesses. The current structure isn't that much bigger than it was before WG ownership, yet although the Airport hasn't expanded, the business has.
I really would love to see how it can be done better.
The hard work and diversification that has already happened seems to have been forgotten about.

[TOM100]

My point being, even without passenger operations, things still need to be done, especially at CWL and St Athan. So the senior team you seem adamant are useless and inefficient are effectively running 3 businesses. The current structure isn't that much bigger than it was before WG ownership, yet although the Airport hasn't expanded, the business has.
I really would love to see how it can be done better.
The hard work and diversification that has already happened seems to have been forgotten about.

i would love to see the commentators on here run their own business with their own money. This is just a planesotters wet dream involved here. Again, not really any point in commentating -l let’s just let the WG pour endless amounts of money into what is a failing business with a consenusus no sign of proper return until at least 2023. Its all just a bit silly. Look at other aviation businesses (all reducing costs permanently). CWL do what you like, spend what you want at least we set some good pics! Totally remove from reality ! Don’t worry tho the WG can just keep throwing money their way......

[LGS6753]

My point being, even without passenger operations, things still need to be done, especially at CWL and St Athan. So the senior team you seem adamant are useless and inefficient are effectively running 3 businesses. The current structure isn't that much bigger than it was before WG ownership, yet although the Airport hasn't expanded, the business has.
I really would love to see how it can be done better.
The hard work and diversification that has already happened seems to have been forgotten about.

Many coherent businesses have different divisions/sections/specialisms. That in itself doesn't make it harder to run, it spreads the overhead over a wider base.

[OC37]

Just out of curiosity did this management team do any marketing to have C19 redundant airliners parked-up at St Athan?

[Alteagod]

Oh im a tit I have just been googling what a C19 Airliner is and who flies them. I need to get out more.

[highwideandugly]

Maybe it’s down to who shouts loudest and has the most clout?
Up here on Teesside we have a mayor..who has a seemingly endless pot of money to help a ..let’s face it..struggling airport survive ?

I would have thought Cardiff..capital of one of the home nations would have more requirements for a thriving ,well run ,economically desirable airport than here?

Who knows!🤔

[SWBKCB]

The Tees Valley Mayor doesn't have "seemingly endless pot of money", but he does have a develeopment budget from central govt, part of which he has chosen to spend on the airport as part of his strategy for increasing inward investment - to quote, "inward investment won't arrive at the bus station, it will walk through the terminal doors".

Where that approach differs to Cardiff is that the WG approach seems to be that the airport is being run as a stand-alone business, without this explicit "global connectivity" aim (or have I missed it?)

What is missing in both cases is transparency on what taxpayers money is being used for, and any controls around govt supported businesses competing against private businesses

[runway30]

The Tees Valley Mayor doesn't have "seemingly endless pot of money", but he does have a develeopment budget from central govt, part of which he has chosen to spend on the airport as part of his strategy for increasing inward investment - to quote, "inward investment won't arrive at the bus station, it will walk through the terminal doors".

Where that approach differs to Cardiff is that the WG approach seems to be that the airport is being run as a stand-alone business, without this explicit "global connectivity" aim (or have I missed it?)

What is missing in both cases is transparency on what taxpayers money is being used for, and any controls around govt supported businesses competing against private businesses

What worries me when the airport is being run at arm’s length on a commercial basis is the amount of commercial experience the director’s have had at other airports. Apart from Spencer, who has had experience elsewhere, but has been promoted into his first senior position at CWL, who among the senior management has commercial experience at other airports?

At the Senedd Public Acoounts Committee of 02/03/2020 the senior management stood by their forecast of 2m. passengers and profitability by 2025. This was at the time when we were at risk of the epidemic in China becoming a global pandemic and three days before the flybe collapse when industry insiders could see what was coming. I thought it was an astonishing performance and not for good reasons.

[Midland Alpha9]

This is utter , utter madness. The new finance director is on an advertised salary of between £85- £90,000 per annum plus an £8k car allowance.

I really despair how this is justified.
This is about the going rate ,not outrageous particularly if you are seeking the right calibre of person.

[Midland Alpha9]

Yep there is a possibility that some flights won't operate but that is completely out of the airports control. I think the last 6 months has shown that the airport is completely at the mercy of airlines.
PDX I have read your submissions for numerous years and whilst they are mostly interesting and informative it does lead me to the conclusion you are actually a senior manager with Cardiff Airport or an employee.
I think you are missing the main point ,which Tom100 is making. Has the airport management taken any action in reducing their operating costs/overheads in the past three months? I am aware the C.E.O. has departed, why? Most would think she has done a first class job building CWL up. Is this an opportunity for a much needed restructure. A commercial business facing these difficult challenging times needs a strong FD as I stated in my previous posting the cost of the new FD is not extortionate and if he/she is worth their salt they will more than payback their salary package.

[TOM100]

PDX I have read your submissions for numerous years and whilst they are mostly interesting and informative it does lead me to the conclusion you are actually a senior manager with Cardiff Airport or an employee.
I think you are missing the main point ,which Tom100 is making. Has the airport management taken any action in reducing their operating costs/overheads in the past three months? I am aware the C.E.O. has departed, why? Most would think she has done a first class job building CWL up. Is this an opportunity for a much needed restructure. A commercial business facing these difficult challenging times needs a strong FD as I stated in my previous posting the cost of the new FD is not extortionate and if he/she is worth their salt they will more than payback their salary package.

MA9 - this is exactly my point. I feel for the airport - they couldn’t control Flybe, obvs they can’t control Covid but I do want to see them address their costs to take account of the new commercial reality. Aviation is not predicted to return to 2019 levels until 2022-2024 depending on who’s prediction is most accurate - so they need to take steps to address this beyond the end of furlough (and taking into account any statutory consultation, this should have started by now).

The analogy with my local shop, of course, is not a direct read across (which it was never meant to be) but just to illustrate some principles of doing business in any sector.

i want CWL to thrive, but that also means operating like a true commercial business and showing the leadership and the ability to be nimble - if they can’t do this then it really does make you ask lots of questions about the real business credentials of their senior team.

[runway30]

I like Deb, I have always got along well with her but hopelessly out of her depth as CEO. Embarrassing for her to have to stay on the Board while someone else takes her job.

I presume all the armchair CEOs on here will be putting in their application for the job.

[OC37]

320 Departures for the last week at Bristol

27 Departures at Cardiff Its not a Finance Director they need, more like a Funeral Director

You really do need to get over this CWL vs BRS nonsense, the two of them are some 90 minutes driving time apart which is just about the same as BHX and MAN and I don't observe either of those squabbling who has the biggest one!

[yeo valley]

PDX I have read your submissions for numerous years and whilst they are mostly interesting and informative it does lead me to the conclusion you are actually a senior manager with Cardiff Airport or an employee.
I think you are missing the main point ,which Tom100 is making. Has the airport management taken any action in reducing their operating costs/overheads in the past three months? I am aware the C.E.O. has departed, why? Most would think she has done a first class job building CWL up. Is this an opportunity for a much needed restructure. A commercial business facing these difficult challenging times needs a strong FD as I stated in my previous posting the cost of the new FD is not extortionate and if he/she is worth their salt they will more than payback their salary package.
He works for a welsh haulage company as a driver and a good one .

[caaardiff]

I like Deb, I have always got along well with her but hopelessly out of her depth as CEO. Embarrassing for her to have to stay on the Board while someone else takes her job.

I presume all the armchair CEOs on here will be putting in their application for the job.

Agreed, however a CEO is only as good as their Management team. If there's a well placed, experienced Management team covering the necessary fields to run well and a CEO that can hold all of that together, then it should work. Take a look at Boris Johnson!!

Spencer has been at CWL for many years and knows his job and the Airlines incredibly well. He knows what CWL is up against, but some could argue as he's always been on the commercial side of things, would he be any good with the operational side of things? Deb is the opposite, knows the operational but maybe not so much the commercial.
This is why I don't understand why some posters want to cut the Management team down to minimal, almost making them multifunctional to save money, which would lose the effectiveness of the team in their specialised fields.

Lets not forget what originally got CWL in to this mess in the first place. An inexperienced, and quite frankly useless, uninterested and arrogant MD that only had experience of running Bingo halls. Lack of funding by it's owners and a breakdown of commercial relations with the Airlines, with maintenance and cleanliness of the terminal building taking a hit because of cut backs. Let that happen again and the £52m spent on the Airport will never been seen again.

[OC37]

Agreed, however a CEO is only as good as their Management team. If there's a well placed, experienced Management team covering the necessary fields to run well and a CEO that can hold all of that together, then it should work. Take a look at Boris Johnson!!

Spencer has been at CWL for many years and knows his job and the Airlines incredibly well. He knows what CWL is up against, but some could argue as he's always been on the commercial side of things, would he be any good with the operational side of things? Deb is the opposite, knows the operational but maybe not so much the commercial.
This is why I don't understand why some posters want to cut the Management team down to minimal, almost making them multifunctional to save money, which would lose the effectiveness of the team in their specialised fields.

Lets not forget what originally got CWL in to this mess in the first place. An inexperienced, and quite frankly useless, uninterested and arrogant MD that only had experience of running Bingo halls. Lack of funding by it's owners and a breakdown of commercial relations with the Airlines, with maintenance and cleanliness of the terminal building taking a hit because of cut backs. Let that happen again and the £52m spent on the Airport will never been seen again.

What I have observed during recent times is business after business after business cutting back while their balance sheets shooting in to the red and them needing to scale back to try to balance the books, unless a business has a bottomless pit of third-party money to support it then if it doesn't remain in the black then it ultimately goes out of business.

On to this mentioned finance director on something like 80k per annum plus 8k car allowance, besides being a tax fiddle how can a car allowance of around £37 per working day possibly be justified when surely the government should be encouraging everybody to go green and utuilise public transport as much as is possible, the previous poster stated "take a look at Boris Johnson", exactly, get on your bicycles and leave the cars at home.

A previous poster suggested that the finances be directed within the ''group' for this to be shot down to the effect that it's not just Cardiff Airport but St Athan and Valley handling also, well so what, those are hardly mega businesses, it's common practice and becoming even moreso for businesses to sub-contract out to reduce overheads, does CWL manage it's own car parking, no it doesn't, does it manage it's own food and beverage outlets, no it doesan't, does it manage it's own newsagents, no i doesn't, does it provide the aircraft fuel, no it doesn't, to name but a few these are all sub-contracted out so why not, until times improve and can justify it, sub-contract out finance directing, there are plenty of independant accountants out there!

It's apparent that CWL isn't being operated as a commercially minded business and if the new finance director can't figure out that the business cannot afford to employ him, well he can't be worth his weight.

[PDXCWL45]

PDX I have read your submissions for numerous years and whilst they are mostly interesting and informative it does lead me to the conclusion you are actually a senior manager with Cardiff Airport or an employee.
I think you are missing the main point ,which Tom100 is making. Has the airport management taken any action in reducing their operating costs/overheads in the past three months? I am aware the C.E.O. has departed, why? Most would think she has done a first class job building CWL up. Is this an opportunity for a much needed restructure. A commercial business facing these difficult challenging times needs a strong FD as I stated in my previous posting the cost of the new FD is not extortionate and if he/she is worth their salt they will more than payback their salary package.
Nope i work for a haulage company as a driver. I'm an enthusiast, planespotter and I like to travel, I don't work for the airport and neither does my company.
The CEO is departing to take up a position with the Port of Milford Haven along with other non executive director roles she has. I believe I read somewhere saying her stepping down is planned.
As for cost cutting if I remember correctly it was mentioned that some of the recent loan could be diverted into the business so to cover during the Covid19 crisis so maybe they feel instant cuts not needed? A new finance director I'd imagine would now undergo a full financial review of the business.
What we do now see happening at CWL is a management shakeup A new Chairman, a new finance director, new CEO yet tba and a new CCO if Spencer Birns gets the CEO position full time. New people new ideas who have a big challenge on their hands!
As for finance director car allowance it doesn't necessarily mean that he won't use public transport.

[PDXCWL45]

does CWL manage it's own car parking, no it doesn't, does it manage it's own food and beverage outlets, no it doesan't, does it manage it's own newsagents, no i doesn't, does it provide the aircraft fuel, no it doesn't,
CWL does manage it's own car parks, it manages the Executive lounge (to much criticism from elsewhere), it doesn't manage duty free or the food outlets but I suspect it gets a cut from the takings.
I suspect that the only thing that they could probably take in house maybe is the ground handling.

[runway30]

Nope i work for a haulage company as a driver. I'm an enthusiast, planespotter and I like to travel, I don't work for the airport and neither does my company.
The CEO is departing to take up a position with the Port of Milford Haven along with other non executive director roles she has. I believe I read somewhere saying her stepping down is planned.
As for cost cutting if I remember correctly it was mentioned that some of the recent loan could be diverted into the business so to cover during the Covid19 crisis so maybe they feel instant cuts not needed? A new finance director I'd imagine would now undergo a full financial review of the business.
What we do now see happening at CWL is a management shakeup A new Chairman, a new finance director, new CEO yet tba and a new CCO if Spencer Birns gets the CEO position full time. New people new ideas who have a big challenge on their hands!
As for finance director car allowance it doesn't necessarily mean that he won't use public transport.

As the Airport Accountable Manager, Deb would always have to work out her notice because without an instant replacement, the Airport would have to close.

If Spence did get the job but wasn’t acceptable to the CAA as the Accountable Manager, they would have to hire a new Operations Director. Perhaps Spence would then double up as Commercial Director as well, saving an additional post.

If Spence doesn’t get the job, perhaps they will only hire a CEO with Operations experience and avoid appointing an Operations Director in the same way as they have under Deb.

[caaardiff]

CWL does manage it's own car parks, it manages the Executive lounge (to much criticism from elsewhere), it doesn't manage duty free or the food outlets but I suspect it gets a cut from the takings.
I suspect that the only thing that they could probably take in house maybe is the ground handling.

Now would not be the time to take ground handling in house. It would mean a loss of revenue from office space, handling licences and various other things a handler would pay for to be able to operate at the Airport. Also with a huge reduction in flights, they would need to absorb staff and equipment costs which currently Swissport is having to absorb.

[TOM100]

PIK has less going for it in terms of location and airlines but seem to be heading in the right direction (pre-Covid). Note CEO cites cost focus and driving operational efficiencies. Take note CWL and WG !

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2020/08/prestwick-airport-confident-of-sale-in-return-to-profit/

[caaardiff]

CWL was heading in the right direction, pre-flybe & Covid. TCX could've been recovered from, Flybe will be a lot harder.

If you look at their Management structure, it's very similar to CWL.
Each has a CEO, CFO/FD, HR Director, Ops Director & Commercial Director (With Spencer currently covering CEO)
PIK has 4 non executive Directors, whereas CWL has 3, also with Deb currently an Executive Director role until she leaves in Oct.
So seems a similar structure in both. I'm not sure of the Prestwick business setup, but the CWL team are also managing St Athan Airfield Ops & VLY Passenger services.

Secondly they may be similar in size, but very different in Operations.

2019 Passengers carried - CWL 1.65m / PIK 640k
There's a big difference in aircraft movements. CWL had about 7,000 more aircraft movements, with commercial flights comparison being CWL 16,549 vs PIK 4637
However there's a big military operation at PIK which saw 4292 at PIK vs 346 at CWL
Private non-commercial movements also account for 1915 at PIK vs 6155 at CWL. These flights are likely going to bring in less revenue than military flights.
Lastly there's a huge difference in Cargo carried 13054tn at PIK vs 1803tn at CWL. The majority of PIK's cargo throughput is from Cargo aircraft, whereas most of CWL's is schedules flights (Mainly QR).

PIK is also positioned well to be a cargo hub for Scotland, whereas CWL's location is more difficult as it would have to compete with a massive hub in EMA. So passenger wise PIK may not be doing well, but it has the ability to diversify.

I still don't understand why the Management team are continuing to get a bashing when CWL have already driven operational efficiencies and looked at costs pre-covid, whilst having to make investments in the Terminal and Airfield to remain attractive. They get scrutinised by the WG, as well as the media and general public. They aren't going to be p*ss*ng money up the wall with that kind of focus on them. I have still yet to see any solid evidence from an informed source that they are doing so.

[OC37]

CWL was heading in the right direction, pre-flybe & Covid. TCX could've been recovered from, Flybe will be a lot harder.

If you look at their Management structure, it's very similar to CWL.
Each has a CEO, CFO/FD, HR Director, Ops Director & Commercial Director (With Spencer currently covering CEO)
PIK has 4 non executive Directors, whereas CWL has 3, also with Deb currently an Executive Director role until she leaves in Oct.
So seems a similar structure in both. I'm not sure of the Prestwick business setup, but the CWL team are also managing St Athan Airfield Ops & VLY Passenger services.

Secondly they may be similar in size, but very different in Operations.

2019 Passengers carried - CWL 1.65m / PIK 640k
There's a big difference in aircraft movements. CWL had about 7,000 more aircraft movements, with commercial flights comparison being CWL 16,549 vs PIK 4637
However there's a big military operation at PIK which saw 4292 at PIK vs 346 at CWL
Private non-commercial movements also account for 1915 at PIK vs 6155 at CWL. These flights are likely going to bring in less revenue than military flights.
Lastly there's a huge difference in Cargo carried 13054tn at PIK vs 1803tn at CWL. The majority of PIK's cargo throughput is from Cargo aircraft, whereas most of CWL's is schedules flights (Mainly QR).

PIK is also positioned well to be a cargo hub for Scotland, whereas CWL's location is more difficult as it would have to compete with a massive hub in EMA. So passenger wise PIK may not be doing well, but it has the ability to diversify.

I still don't understand why the Management team are continuing to get a bashing when CWL have already driven operational efficiencies and looked at costs pre-covid, whilst having to make investments in the Terminal and Airfield to remain attractive. They get scrutinised by the WG, as well as the media and general public. They aren't going to be p*ss*ng money up the wall with that kind of focus on them. I have still yet to see any solid evidence from an informed source that they are doing so.

But in fairness you're comparing CWL against PIK but do you truly wish to compare CWL against an airport that has been a white elephant since the day that it was built and, what with longer range aircraft needing lesser length runways, has pretty much no marketplace in modern day aviation and even for transatlantic fuel stops has always been in competition with SNN.

And I honestly do not know how these shall compare but how about comparing with the likes of EXT, BOH, NWI and HUY for perhaps some more realistic comparisons.

But of interest, to my business mind rather than my personal mind, is that it is directors being itemised, I note that CWL has a Commercial Director, would he/she be responsible for Sales in the absence of any Sales Director, so the CD is the 'Chief', how many 'Indians' does he have beneath him/her banging the telephones and out there knocking on doors trying to sell anything aviation related.

Of particular note during these times is that the CWL directors have two less than anywhere near fully utilised airfields seemingly just begging for business, below is a recent picture of BOH, would anyone care to post a recent picture of St Athan or were the CWL Commercial team, of seemingly one, too preoccupied having meetings to decide when the next meeting may be whilst other airports were out there doing some marketing?


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x433/boh_ab18a067729f0ca278c3a8b5aa519a6b37657ad4.jpg

[TOM100]

Unfortunately, some posters on here seem to miss the fundamental point I am trying to make. For a business to be successful it has to grown in a controlled way. If it is not growing and revenue is falling or static it needs to ruthlessly keep control of costs in order to maintain its margin (or reduce losses).

As pointed out PIK was regarded as a white elephant but has managed to grow revenue (which is significantly higher than CWL), pursue diversification (carving out some niches) control costs and turn a profit. Even in a ‘good’ recent year CWL’s EBITDA was, what £77k ! So my point was - find your own niches, search them out, then as OC states, go knocking doors relentlessly (metaphorically speaking). I have still yet to see CWL management state anything about cost focus and steps they are taking to address these, beyond furlough, with the business/industry estimated to take 3-4 years to recover.

The high level point point I was making about PIK is that you carve out and make your own success with the assets you have - it’s not all down to pax airlines turning up.

Anyway, clearly flogging a dead horse here as clearly some people think a £77k EBITDA on £18m t/o = management doing a fantastic job.

BTW - I don’t count the WG as proper scrutiny - most of these politicians have never worked in the real commercial world and if you take a look at their questioning in committees of CWL management - this clearly shows.

[OC37]

Unfortunately, some posters on here seem to miss the fundamental point I am trying to make. For a business to be successful it has to grown in a controlled way. If it is not growing and revenue is falling or static it needs to ruthlessly keep control of costs in order to maintain its margin (or reduce losses)..

The No.1 rule of business is that the money coming in needs to be more than the money going out, achieve that and it becomes irrelevant if the business is growing or not!

[LGS6753]

Whilst I applaud Caaaardiff's attempt to analyse the differences between CWL and PIK, I think he has missed a crucial point. It is no coincidence that various airports are owned by property companies - because that's often what they are. A quick look at CWL shows much less developed property to let than at PIK, and I suspect that is the crucial difference.

Of course, I may be wrong....

[PDXCWL45]

Just with reference to parked aircraft at CWL and St Athan.
At CWL there is about 12 747 aircraft parked around the site and it was up to 14 at one point. They are definitely maximising the space there.
As for St Athan it is a busy site for Ecube with lots of aircraft parked around to be scrapped.
In the tweet below they do mention what they're doing at the airport during this crisis.
https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Airport/status/1295763272898088962?s=19

[TOM100]

Just with reference to parked aircraft at CWL and St Athan.
At CWL there is about 12 747 aircraft parked around the site and it was up to 14 at one point. They are definitely maximising the space there.
As for St Athan it is a busy site for Ecube with lots of aircraft parked around to be scrapped.
In the tweet below they do mention what they're doing at the airport during this crisis.
https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Airport/status/1295763272898088962?s=19


Great words Spencer - please tell us what these cost controls are (and I hope significant reductions too) now and beyond the end of the job retention scheme and how much £ they amount to on an annualised basis ? Frankly it’s a given that any non critical caped has stopped - this should have happened on March 24. Words and begging bowls are easy what tangible changes (permanent/semi permanent) have been made (including the senior team costs) to reflect the new revenue and pax number reality that is likely to exist for several years. I have written to my AM and put in an FOI request to attempt to get some answers.

[PDXCWL45]

Great words Spencer - please tell us what these cost controls are (and I hope significant reductions too) now and beyond the end of the job retention scheme and how much £ they amount to on an annualised basis ? Frankly it’s a given that any non critical caped has stopped - this should have happened on March 24. Words and begging bowls are easy what tangible changes (permanent/semi permanent) have been made (including the senior team costs) to reflect the new revenue and pax number reality that is likely to exist for several years. I have written to my AM and put in an FOI request to attempt to get some answers.
Well he's not exactly going to produce an item by item list especially if peoples jobs are on the line.
As for FOI good luck with that as I believe others have tried but as the airport isn't a government department and a commercial business owned by the WG I'm pretty sure it like them it'll be rejected! But please let us know what the reply is.

[TOM100]

I’ll let you know. I care passionately about this airport but feel strongly it is being mis-managed. I want it to thrive and prosper but to attract new owners and investment (eventually after all this) it needs to show it has potential and is being run like a true commercial business.

How can EXT show higher turnover and higher levels of profitability (accounts available from Companies House) with less pax and less airlines is beyond me ?

Costs need to be commensurate with revenue - it’s a business fundamental.

Who would want to invest in a business with bloated costs, no clear strategy and no diversification of business ?

I can’t help but feel the management are way too comfortable knowing they can just go to the WG with the begging bowl and get bailed out.

How can this drive the right, timely and correct commercial decisions ?

if there was private money at stake you can bet your bottom dollar that their feet would be held to the fire, they would need to be nimble and act in a truly commercial way. If the management team didn’t, they would be out.

BTW - the silence from the new Chair is deafening !

[SWBKCB]

if there was private money at stake you can bet your bottom dollar that their feet would be held to the fire, they would need to be nimble and act in a truly commercial way. If the management team didn’t, they would be out.

Remind me, why did the WG step in?

[TOM100]

Ummm - the WG stepped in as it couldn’t make money and nobody else was interested. Being run by the same people now. Remind me why was no commercial operator interested ? Hence why Albertis were more than keen to offload at an inflated price.

[caaardiff]

Ummm - the WG stepped in as it couldn’t make money and nobody else was interested. Being run by the same people now. Remind me why was no commercial operator interested ? Hence why Albertis were more than keen to offload at an inflated price.

The same people that were near to bring the Airport back to profitability. CWL was part of the deal that brought Luton and Belfast to the group. They didn't really want it and that was evident in the lack of investment and restricted running that the owners put on the Airport and its management team.

I've raised this a number of time but it appears to have been ignored. There have been many changes at CWL since the WG took over. Many signs of diversification, many signs of increased passenger numbers and slow progress of increased routes and Airlines. This process hasn't just started since covid/flybe. It started 5years+ ago.
Along with all of that change came investment in the Airfield, airfield equipment and the terminal. All of which was needed but obviously affected the books.

TOM100, you clearly have a grudge against the Airport Management which is starting to show and get boring and repetitive.
Seeing as you seem to know so much, I am very curious to see you put your money where your mouth is and start providing some viable and realistic options to how you would better run CWL, without the belief that you can get anyone off the street to do senior roles, Airlines are banging at the door to use CWL and there isn't a need for ongoing investment.....

[PDXCWL45]

Exeter is mentioned a bit and probably is a better comparing with than Bristol. I think the fact that it has less airline's and routes maybe shows that it's making it's money on other parts of the business like the Executive jet side and I believe that they own a business park nearby? Not too mention the former Flybe mro operation and I'm told that they have high out of hours charging which I don't believe CWL has. The non passenger side of the business is what CWL has been building up with the arrival of Global trek and taking over of St Athan. It'll be interesting to see how those operations effect the airports profitability in the future.
As for selling the airport in the future I don't think any WG government could risk it without some sort of golden share and a private owner is no guarantee that WG money won't still end up in the business as any canny owner would surely try and use WG money rather than their own.

[TOM100]

OThe same people that were near to bring the Airport back to profitability. CWL was part of the deal that brought Luton and Belfast to the group. They didn't really want it and that was evident in the lack of investment and restricted running that the owners put on the Airport and its management team.

I've raised this a number of time but it appears to have been ignored. There have been many changes at CWL since the WG took over. Many signs of diversification, many signs of increased passenger numbers and slow progress of increased routes and Airlines. This process hasn't just started since covid/flybe. It started 5years+ ago.
Along with all of that change came investment in the Airfield, airfield equipment and the terminal. All of which was needed but obviously affected the books.

TOM100, you clearly have a grudge against the Airport Management which is starting to show and get boring and repetitive.
Seeing as you seem to know so much, I am very curious to see you put your money where your mouth is and start providing some viable and realistic options to how you would better run CWL, without the belief that you can get anyone off the street to do senior roles, Airlines are banging at the door to use CWL and there isn't a need for ongoing investment.....

i think my views are clear - I am not hiding them - if you find my views boring and repetitive then jut don’t bother replying (I don’t ask you to). I could say the same of sycophancy and lack of questioning (but I happen to respect other people’s opinions - even if I don’t agree with them). The current necessity is to take out cost to reflect the new commercial reality. I won’t hide from the fact that the airport cannot have it both ways. If they want to take money from the WG and Welsh taxpayer they have to demonstrate value for money. Whilst I am a taxpayer and they are happy to use our money I will unashamedly ask my representatives to hold this business to account. If they want to stop pretending to be an arms length commercial organisation and become another bloated arm of the Welsh civil service then fine - be upfront and let the electorate decide.

This is is a business taking on more and more debt and not tangibly addressing how they are (even attempting) to balance the books in light of (in their own words) a drop in 80% of their business.

Should anyone who disagrees or who wants to engage in debate (even if u
you don’t agree) just be silent ?
u

[TOM100]

Exeter is mentioned a bit and probably is a better comparing with than Bristol. I think the fact that it has less airline's and routes maybe shows that it's making it's money on other parts of the business like the Executive jet side and I believe that they own a business park nearby? Not too mention the former Flybe mro operation and I'm told that they have high out of hours charging which I don't believe CWL has. The non passenger side of the business is what CWL has been building up with the arrival of Global trek and taking over of St Athan. It'll be interesting to see how those operations effect the airports profitability in the future.
As for selling the airport in the future I don't think any WG government could risk it without some sort of golden share and a private owner is no guarantee that WG money won't still end up in the business as any canny owner would surely try and use WG money rather than their own.

Agreed, but CWL has one of the largest MRO facilities in the UK (BAMC), is the capital city of Wales, has a larger catchment area etc - so what are these businesses doing and achieving that CWL seems unable to ?

[macdo]

God, this thread is like a twenty year groundhog day, even down to some of the same characters bickering over why CWL is/is not a business failure. Always has been (apart from tentative green shoots in the mid 2000's) and when I went through there last year and saw the fossilised tumbleweed blowing through the terminal, and always will be. If it wasn't for BAMC it would have been a housing estate years ago, which is hopefully its eventual fate rather than digging up green field around Cardiff. You've got 2 massive aviation sites within spitting distance and not enough business for one of them The dead hand of WG is all over this and I have little doubt it will stagger on for a bit longer as they try to convince the population of Wales that it is a national status symbol and has to have more money (the invisible kind) thrown at it.
Ugh, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it!

[OC37]

God, this thread is like a twenty year groundhog day, even down to some of the same characters bickering over why CWL is/is not a business failure. Always has been (apart from tentative green shoots in the mid 2000's) and when I went through there last year and saw the fossilised tumbleweed blowing through the terminal, and always will be. If it wasn't for BAMC it would have been a housing estate years ago, which is hopefully its eventual fate rather than digging up green field around Cardiff. You've got 2 massive aviation sites within spitting distance and not enough business for one of them The dead hand of WG is all over this and I have little doubt it will stagger on for a bit longer as they try to convince the population of Wales that it is a national status symbol and has to have more money (the invisible kind) thrown at it.
Ugh, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it!

LOL, somewhat of a contradiction citing two massive aviation sites while suggesting without sufficient business for either of them, perhaps a description of two massive real estate sites might have been more apt given your overall summarisation.

There is an airfield in Swindon with a Honda car plant built upon it, there is an airfield in Ellesmere Port with a Vauxhall/Opel car plant, there is an airfield in Sunderland with a Nissan car plant, there is an airfield in Derby with a Toyota car plant, there is an airfield in Hethel with a Lotus car plant, there is an airfield in Gaydon with Jaguar/Land Rover & Aston Martin car plants, Dyson have taken over Hullavington airfield for their electric cars so it was interesting to learn that Aston Martin are/were moving in to St Athan to develop a business plant there, St Athan would be ideal for non-aviation related industry with it having been perhaps the largest of ex RAF bases but without a size of runway to match and located within the country of government incentives for developing businesses.

CWL could do something to improve upon it's public transport links, by the way what the hell is happening with Cardiff Central bus station, that was one of the few perfect city rail/bus interchanges, on/off a bus and/or train within a couple of minutes walk of each other, what the hell are they doing to it?

But trains to/from the airport, CWL have designated Rhoose station as their airport rail station, Rhoose station was closed for umpteen years, is little more that an open-air platform or two on the coast, exposed to the Severn estuary, with just one train and one airport shuttle bus per hour, is located 2.2 miles from the airport and according to a route planner 6 minutes away

By comparison just 3.6 miles and 7 minutes away from the airport is Barry rail station with, not one but,three trains per hour, an average of one train per 20 minutes, with building(s) to take shelter from the elements and convenient to local services such as food & beverage outlets, why the hell are CWL focusing upon a village rail service rather than a far better town rail service?

[supermarine]

LOL, somewhat of a contradiction citing two massive aviation sites while suggesting without sufficient business for either of them, perhaps a description of two massive real estate sites might have been more apt given your overall summarisation.

There is an airfield in Swindon with a Honda car plant built upon it, there is an airfield in Ellesmere Port with a Vauxhall/Opel car plant, there is an airfield in Sunderland with a Nissan car plant, there is an airfield in Derby with a Toyota car plant, there is an airfield in Hethel with a Lotus car plant, there is an airfield in Gaydon with Jaguar/Land Rover & Aston Martin car plants, Dyson have taken over Hullavington airfield for their electric cars so it was interesting to learn that Aston Martin are/were moving in to St Athan to develop a business plant there, St Athan would be ideal for non-aviation related industry with it having been perhaps the largest of ex RAF bases but without a size of runway to match and located within the country of government incentives for developing businesses.

CWL could do something to improve upon it's public transport links, by the way what the hell is happening with Cardiff Central bus station, that was one of the few perfect city rail/bus interchanges, on/off a bus and/or train within a couple of minutes walk of each other, what the hell are they doing to it?

But trains to/from the airport, CWL have designated Rhoose station as their airport rail station, Rhoose station was closed for umpteen years, is little more that an open-air platform or two on the coast, exposed to the Severn estuary, with just one train and one airport shuttle bus per hour, is located 2.2 miles from the airport and according to a route planner 6 minutes away

By comparison just 3.6 miles and 7 minutes away from the airport is Barry rail station with, not one but,three trains per hour, an average of one train per 20 minutes, with building(s) to take shelter from the elements and convenient to local services such as food & beverage outlets, why the hell are CWL focusing upon a village rail service rather than a far better town rail service?

In a few lines this has post has exposed the level of governance in the Principality; useless would be perfect adjective to describe Cardiff Council and the Idiots down the Bay. All self serving, pulling in strong public money whilst

uneducated in the real world of actually sweating assets. Still we will have a raft of sixteen year olds voting next May , they will help guide the country to prosperity, especially looking at the recent exam results. Excellent.
.

[TOM100]

Macdo has summed it up and given food for thought. The WG aviation strategy (if they have one) should consolidate around one site if they are intent and truly see value in a national airport. Sell of St Athan airfield, use some of the proceeds to relocate Caerdav/eCube to the south side o of CWL (maybe set up an aviation/MRO hub), stop the PSO service (costing millions) to Valley (it’s not like this is a vital link to some outer Hebridean island) - use funds for CWL route development, take cost out of the CWL operations and attempt to turn a profit (or at least to break even). Rather than spreading limited funds across multiple sites and strategies.

CWL (as Macdo points out like in the 00’s) can attract 2-2.5m pax and make money but has a lot of work to do.

My strong view (sorry if this bores some posters) is that it doesn’t have the right leadership, drive, accountability for results etc that is required to achieve this. If you disagree that’s fine but this is my view. I feel it’s just sit back, take the WG money, wait for the airlines to come back and hope for the best.

As Henry Ford said “if you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you always got”.

[southside bobby]

No worries...Cardiff Airport & ya man with a statement is calling on the UK Government to "introduce a package of support measures for the hard pressed aviation sector including suspending APD for a number of years".

[SWBKCB]

No worries...Cardiff Airport & ya man with a statement is calling on the UK Government to "introduce a package of support measures for the hard pressed aviation sector including suspending APD for a number of years".

Along with just about everybody else in the industry, so he's not alone. Would suspending APD be much help - is it the cost putting people off flying??

[PDXCWL45]

Agreed, but CWL has one of the largest MRO facilities in the UK (BAMC), is the capital city of Wales, has a larger catchment area etc - so what are these businesses doing and achieving that CWL seems unable to ?
Yes BAMC is big, as for the capital city of Wales I'm not sure that is such an advantage that a lot of people think it is. Cardiff doesn't have the profile of say Edinburgh Belfast or Dublin as a destination and Wales doesn't have the profile as a country of the others for various reasons I won't go into.
As for catchment area like Exeter that is seriously impacted by the airport next door maybe more so for CWL.
As for what CWL isn't doing that Exeter isn't i think it needs to be asked what has happened to EXT that hasn't at CWL. EXT seems to have been a more steady airport down to I'd say it's owners who have no doubt invested in the airport whereas that hasn't happened in the past at CWL.

[PDXCWL45]

By comparison just 3.6 miles and 7 minutes away from the airport is Barry rail station with, not one but,three trains per hour, an average of one train per 20 minutes, with building(s) to take shelter from the elements and convenient to local services such as food & beverage outlets, why the hell are CWL focusing upon a village rail service rather than a far better town rail service?
I did read somewhere that it has been suggested that the rail link will move to Barry as part of the metro plans.

[OC37]

Does this look like the airport railway station of a capital city international airport to you?


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/rhoose_39a23e654a272c050ed3b4b8a2339592cd465273.jpg

[PDXCWL45]

In a few lines this has post has exposed the level of governance in the Principality; useless would be perfect adjective to describe Cardiff Council and the Idiots down the Bay. All self serving, pulling in strong public money whilst

uneducated in the real world of actually sweating assets. Still we will have a raft of sixteen year olds voting next May , they will help guide the country to prosperity, especially looking at the recent exam results. Excellent.
.
Firstly Wales isn't a Principality. The Principality of Wales ended in 1536 when it was annexed by England. Secondly as for WG people need to actually vote in a different party if they want change and having 16 and 17 year olds able to vote may well help change that. But would any change effect the airport? I don't think so as all parties consider it important to the country.

[PDXCWL45]

Sell of St Athan airfield, use some of the proceeds to relocate Caerdav/eCube to the south side o of CWL (maybe set up an aviation/MRO hub), stop the PSO service (costing millions) to Valley (it’s not like this is a vital link to some outer Hebridean island)”.
Where would you fit Ecube for a start let alone Caerdav. As for the VLY service build a high speed rail link through Wales north to south then it won't be needed.

[yeo valley]

I have not seen any thing or might have missed it. Ecube has opened a big scrapping yard out in Spain. I cant remember if it was Almeria or Girona.They have out grown St Athan.

[TOM100]

I have not seen any thing or might have missed it. Ecube has opened a big scrapping yard out in Spain. I cant remember if it was Almeria or Girona.They have out grown St Athan.


it’s in Castellon. I believe this is where BA’s recently (this week) retired 744 G-CIVD went to meet it’s fate.....

https://ecube.aero/latest/high-demand-opening-phase-spanish-operations/

[supermarine]

Firstly Wales isn't a Principality. The Principality of Wales ended in 1536 when it was annexed by England. Secondly as for WG people need to actually vote in a different party if they want change and having 16 and 17 year olds able to vote may well help change that. But would any change effect the airport? I don't think so as all parties consider it important to the country.

Semantics and pedantry are not quite as bad as sarcasm , whoever you are , I admire your unrequited love 💔 for Cardiff Wales (not Principality) Airport . Perhaps we should go back to calling it Rhoose . Face it truthfully, it’s a busted flush, most of the population of South Wales are prepared to travel to Lulsgate for their jollies . Scrap it and spend the millions wasted on a better infrastructure instead . You would get a more profitable return planting potatoes on the land .

i used to argue the case for the airport with the ex pilot , living in Tiago Island who has ultimately been proved correct , The corona virus has done for CWL .

[PDXCWL45]

Semantics and pedantry are not quite as bad as sarcasm , whoever you are , I admire your unrequited love 💔 for Cardiff Wales (not Principality) Airport . Perhaps we should go back to calling it Rhoose . Face it truthfully, it’s a busted flush, most of the population of South Wales are prepared to travel to Lulsgate for their jollies . Scrap it and spend the millions wasted on a better infrastructure instead . You would get a more profitable return planting potatoes on the land .

i used to argue the case for the airport with the ex pilot , living in Tiago Island who has ultimately been proved correct , The corona virus has done for CWL .
CWL will recover from the effects of Covid19. Despite people like you who seem desperate to shut it down and just seem to have nothing but anything negative to say about it. So what if more people use Bristol? More people from Devon use Bristol as well yet no one calls for Exeter to be closed down.
From a personal perspective I'm sure I'll be using it in the year's to come to travel to the world just as I'll also use Bristol and Heathrow and Birmingham in the years to come.

[TOM100]

There is a lot of space at the southern end of the disused runway for Caerdav and eCube - if indeed their operations are viable.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&source=hp&ei=CVA_X8zuIofhUuWjucAJ&q=images+from+the+air+cardiff+airport+airfield&oq=&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyAggpMgYIKRAWEB4yAggpM gUIKRCgATICCCkyBggpEBYQHjICCCkyBQgpEIsDMgIIKTICCCkyBQgpEKABM gUIKRCgATICCCkyBQgpEKABMgcIKRAKEKABUABYAGDHGWgAcAB4AIABAIgBA JIBAJgBALABDw&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=ABMWe6zNaF_T-M

[SWBKCB]

if indeed their operations are viable.

Anything to suggest they are not?

[caaardiff]

There is a lot of space at the southern end of the disused runway for Caerdav and eCube - if indeed their operations are viable.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&source=hp&ei=CVA_X8zuIofhUuWjucAJ&q=images+from+the+air+cardiff+airport+airfield&oq=&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyAggpMgYIKRAWEB4yAggpM gUIKRCgATICCCkyBggpEBYQHjICCCkyBQgpEIsDMgIIKTICCCkyBQgpEKABM gUIKRCgATICCCkyBQgpEKABMgcIKRAKEKABUABYAGDHGWgAcAB4AIABAIgBA JIBAJgBALABDw&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=ABMWe6zNaF_T-M

It would certainly make sense to consolidate the 2 airfields and there is space on the South side for a BAMC sized shared hangar or 2 smaller hangars. Comparison of both airfields attached. Blue is Caerdav & yellow Ecube
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1564x1564/img_20200821_072815_78fe9acaec4714f9c66cb5a36c8ab6e306858cd3 .jpg

This is also a good summary of current ongoings at the Airport along with challenges faced. It does highlight the support that CWL needs, however that doesn't mean its not a viable business in the long term... the link will open a WG pdf document.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/5059/default/&ved=2ahUKEwingd3N1avrAhURqXEKHaGjDh8QFjAMegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0qeTdE_ThqygRIf7zXLwih

[SWBKCB]

Moving heavy engineering sites is such a quick and easy thing to do (and cheap!). The neighbours will be delighted! :ok:

[OC37]

Moving heavy engineering sites is such a quick and easy thing to do (and cheap!). The neighbours will be delighted! :ok:

Did someone mention moving heavy engineering, such as a complete fleet of Nimrods manufactured in Wales?


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x484/nimrod_2_4434377189d74365425c8749af4faa4dd6598199.jpg

[TOM100]

There is a lot of space at the southern end of the disused runway for Caerdav and eCube - if indeed their operations are viable.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&source=hp&ei=CVA_X8zuIofhUuWjucAJ&q=images+from+the+air+cardiff+airport+airfield&oq=&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyAggpMgYIKRAWEB4yAggpM gUIKRCgATICCCkyBggpEBYQHjICCCkyBQgpEIsDMgIIKTICCCkyBQgpEKABM gUIKRCgATICCCkyBQgpEKABMgcIKRAKEKABUABYAGDHGWgAcAB4AIABAIgBA JIBAJgBALABDw&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=ABMWe6zNaF_T-M

What ? So it’s too difficult let’s not even investigate. Neighbours didn’t like T5, LTN expansion or BRS new terminal - all were able to overcome objections in arguably much more sensitive areas. As you say may have been or being considered but a visible strategy to save and/or secure the business would be good to see. Didn’t CWL recently bid (and lost) for the site as a location for some Boeing maintenance facility ?

[PDXCWL45]

What ? So it’s too difficult let’s not even investigate. Neighbours didn’t like T5, LTN expansion or BRS new terminal - all were able to overcome objections in arguably much more sensitive areas. As you say may have been or being considered but a visible strategy to save and/or secure the business would be good to see. Didn’t CWL recently bid (and lost) for the site as a location for some Boeing maintenance facility ?
I think Caerdav would be ideal. With Ecube I think it would be more about space for aircraft storage especially big aircraft like 747s which no doubt they'll be busy with soon enough. And the potential for FOD at an active airfield like cwl when they're breaking up the aircraft.
And yes they did bid for a Boeing maintenance facility.

[PDXCWL45]

Between 20th September and 18th October Ryanair are adding a Sunday flight to the Faro route taking it back to 3 weekly! A bit of good news for CWL!

[PDXCWL45]

Bit more Ryanair news for Summer 2021.
Malaga is now onsale the route operates 3 weekly Mon, Wed & Fri from 2/6/21 to 30/8/21
Malta 2 weekly Wed & Sun and Faro Mon & Fri are onsale as well.
Just missing Barcelona 😕

[fanrailuk]

Am sure we all knew this already... :rolleyes:

Cardiff Airport “needs true low cost airline” to compete (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53897491)

[JSCL]

Am sure we all knew this already... :rolleyes:

Cardiff Airport “needs true low cost airline” to compete (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53897491)
Whatever happened to Flyforbeans?

[SKOJB]

Am sure we all knew this already... :rolleyes:

Cardiff Airport “needs true low cost airline” to compete (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53897491)

Don’t they have that already with RYR, just not the selection of routes?!

[CabinCrewe]

Is QR DOH gone for good?

[runway30]

Am sure we all knew this already... :rolleyes:

Cardiff Airport “needs true low cost airline” to compete (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53897491)

I wish he had done his homework before opening his mouth. The market at Cardiff will sustain a low cost airline in the Summer, it will not sustain it during the Winter. You might say that this describes the whole of the low cost market but at Cardiff it is more pronounced because whilst some of the catchment is wealthy enough to to take multiple flights a year, a large part of the catchment historically only went on holiday once a year and now can only afford to go on holiday once a year if at all.
You cannot take back passengers from Bristol by, let us say, using support from the Welsh Government because that would be illegal state aid. After December 31st, we don’t know what the competition policy will be of the UK Governemnt but we already know that they won’t allow APD to be devolved and therefore don’t support the Welsh Government taking passengers back from Bristol.
Ther is a risk in having a dominant low cost based airline at an airport the size of Cardiff. They would demand and get lower aeronautical charges, other remaining airlines (such as they are) would demand the same to enable them to compete with the low cost carrier. The low cost carrier could then use commercial power to keep those charges low, taking away aeronautical income that would deny funds for further development of the airport.
Up until coronavirus, the policy of attracting low cost airlines to fly from their foreign bases seems very sensible until Cardiff could achieve a large enough density of passengers to allow multiple airlines to compete. The problem at Cardiff was the deal with Flybe which didn’t give the passenger numbers and growth that would have been provided by a low cost airline but dominated the airport and therefore discouraged competition.
I was never encouraged that the airport would get through the loss making part of the deal into the nirvana of the profitable end of the deal because nobody could tell me what the Flybe strategy would be in 3 years never mind ten years.

[OC37]

I wish he had done his homework before opening his mouth. The market at Cardiff will sustain a low cost airline in the Summer, it will not sustain it during the Winter. You might say that this describes the whole of the low cost market but at Cardiff it is more pronounced because whilst some of the catchment is wealthy enough to to take multiple flights a year, a large part of the catchment historically only went on holiday once a year and now can only afford to go on holiday once a year if at all.
You cannot take back passengers from Bristol by, let us say, using support from the Welsh Government because that would be illegal state aid. After December 31st, we don’t know what the competition policy will be of the UK Governemnt but we already know that they won’t allow APD to be devolved and therefore don’t support the Welsh Government taking passengers back from Bristol.
Ther is a risk in having a dominant low cost based airline at an airport the size of Cardiff. They would demand and get lower aeronautical charges, other remaining airlines (such as they are) would demand the same to enable them to compete with the low cost carrier. The low cost carrier could then use commercial power to keep those charges low, taking away aeronautical income that would deny funds for further development of the airport.
Up until coronavirus, the policy of attracting low cost airlines to fly from their foreign bases seems very sensible until Cardiff could achieve a large enough density of passengers to allow multiple airlines to compete. The problem at Cardiff was the deal with Flybe which didn’t give the passenger numbers and growth that would have been provided by a low cost airline but dominated the airport and therefore discouraged competition.
I was never encouraged that the airport would get through the loss making part of the deal into the nirvana of the profitable end of the deal because nobody could tell me what the Flybe strategy would be in 3 years never mind ten years.

That statement came from the chairman of two budget airlines who clearly has his head up his backside if he believes that EZY are a, quote, "true low cost airline" and if he thinks, quote, "people simply keep driving along the M4… and get to Bristol", that BRS is anywhere near to the M4 whilst he serves to reignite the CWL vs BRS animosity, that's truly mature of him!

Quoting this poster that CWL can sustain a loco during the summer, yes but what routes would they serve beside the same old 'bucket and spade' summer holiday destinations that have been successfully served from CWL since the launch of IT holidays and long before loco's became a more recent fad.

Are Vueling not a loco, have Vueling not been serving some of these bucket and spade routes successfully for a number of years now, have the likes of Thomas Cook (RIP) and TUI, to name but two, not been serving these bucket and spade routes also, CWL can successfully operate UK domestic routes with modestly sized aircraft, if BRS can do it with medium jet operators who have squeezed the airport for the lowest fees whilst transporting budget travellers many of whom shall keep their money in their pockets when transitting the airport then let them do so, if CWL were to even think about taking on BRS head-to-head in a price war then whilst the travelling public may benefit, BRS would ultimately win due to it's geographic location whilst both airports and airlines would suffer along with the Welsh taxpayers who subsidise CWL!

What springs to mind is a discussion I once had with a former colleague regarding tour operators, he was ex Britannia, Thomson were the No.1 UK tour operator, both on quality and quantity, Airtours came along and overtook them on numbers, on holidays sold and passengers transported but to do so they simply couldn't offer the quality that Thomson offered, should CWL be focusing on quality or quantity?

[caaardiff]

That statement came from the chairman of two budget airlines who clearly has his head up his backside if he believes that EZY are a, quote, "true low cost airline" and if he thinks, quote, "people simply keep driving along the M4… and get to Bristol", that BRS is anywhere near to the M4 whilst he serves to reignite the CWL vs BRS animosity, that's truly mature of him!

Quoting this poster that CWL can sustain a loco during the summer, yes but what routes would they serve beside the same old 'bucket and spade' summer holiday destinations that have been successfully served from CWL since the launch of IT holidays and long before loco's became a more recent fad.

Are Vueling not a loco, have Vueling not been serving some of these bucket and spade routes successfully for a number of years now, have the likes of Thomas Cook (RIP) and TUI, to name but two, not been serving these bucket and spade routes also, CWL can successfully operate UK domestic routes with modestly sized aircraft, if BRS can do it with medium jet operators who have squeezed the airport for the lowest fees whilst transporting budget travellers many of whom shall keep their money in their pockets when transitting the airport then let them do so, if CWL were to even think about taking on BRS head-to-head in a price war then whilst the travelling public may benefit, BRS would ultimately win due to it's geographic location whilst both airports and airlines would suffer along with the Welsh taxpayers who subsidise CWL!

What springs to mind is a discussion I once had with a former colleague regarding tour operators, he was ex Britannia, Thomson were the No.1 UK tour operator, both on quality and quantity, Airtours came along and overtook them on numbers, on holidays sold and passengers transported but to do so they simply couldn't offer the quality that Thomson offered, should CWL be focusing on quality or quantity?

I imagine for the likes of TUI that CWL is pretty profitable for them. The amount of times you'll hear that CWL is more expensive than BRS, not just with low cost flights but with tour operator Holidays too. TUI (and TCX) had to deal with a lot more competition at BRS, BHX, and LGW. Which meant through basic economics that flights/holidays are cheaper. A family could save £100s flying from those rather than CWL.
CWL can often be competitive and even cheaper than other Airports. I have often been of the view that because there is less capacity offered at CWL but in general package holidays are very popular in Wales, that flights fill up quicker than at other bigger airports. Eventually the holiday prices do increase and that should likely make it more profitable for the carrier. That being said, if demand is there and capacity has been added, as with TUI, will that dilute profits if CWLs catchment can't fill the extra capacity?
So I agree, is less quantity better for a more profitable operation for the Airline, or is there a fine line at CWL between good profit and extra capacity with reduced profits. That is why i also believe Vueling haven't expanded, to maintain high profits but not off capacity to it's full potential (during summer).

The more media presence on the topic should hopefully help build momentum to restoring the passenger numbers at CWL. I'm now of the mindset that someone like Wizz would be best placed. No competition with themselves at BRS and a lower cost base than EZY. It would take some building up of brand awareness in South Wales but if Wizz can't make it work, then no-one can.
What didn't help Flybe was having EZY and FR who could easily undercut their fares over the bridge to squeeze Flybes performance at CWL. Even EZY would struggle to undercut Wizz prices.

[OC37]

I imagine for the likes of TUI that CWL is pretty profitable for them. The amount of times you'll hear that CWL is more expensive than BRS, not just with low cost flights but with tour operator Holidays too. TUI (and TCX) had to deal with a lot more competition at BRS, BHX, and LGW. Which meant through basic economics that flights/holidays are cheaper. A family could save £100s flying from those rather than CWL.
CWL can often be competitive and even cheaper than other Airports. I have often been of the view that because there is less capacity offered at CWL but in general package holidays are very popular in Wales, that flights fill up quicker than at other bigger airports. Eventually the holiday prices do increase and that should likely make it more profitable for the carrier. That being said, if demand is there and capacity has been added, as with TUI, will that dilute profits if CWLs catchment can't fill the extra capacity?
So I agree, is less quantity better for a more profitable operation for the Airline, or is there a fine line at CWL between good profit and extra capacity with reduced profits. That is why i also believe Vueling haven't expanded, to maintain high profits but not off capacity to it's full potential (during summer).

The more media presence on the topic should hopefully help build momentum to restoring the passenger numbers at CWL. I'm now of the mindset that someone like Wizz would be best placed. No competition with themselves at BRS and a lower cost base than EZY. It would take some building up of brand awareness in South Wales but if Wizz can't make it work, then no-one can.
What didn't help Flybe was having EZY and FR who could easily undercut their fares over the bridge to squeeze Flybes performance at CWL. Even EZY would struggle to undercut Wizz prices.

Perhaps what may be the answer is a new Wales based tour operator, there was Red Dragon Travel with Airways International Cymru, Aspro Holidays with Inter European Airways, with all these WG incentives for businesses can't they find a new tour operator with an in house or contracted airline focused on primarily serving Wales and without charging a supplement to do so?

[caaardiff]

Perhaps what may be the answer is a new Wales based tour operator, there was Red Dragon Travel with Airways International Cymru, Aspro Holidays with Inter European Airways, with all these WG incentives for businesses can't they find a new tour operator with an in house or contracted airline focused on primarily serving Wales and without charging a supplement to do so?
The WG shouldn't be funding Tour Operators as it does nothing for the Welsh economy. However the suggestion of independent tour operators utilising a carrier should work. I posted an example of this elsewhere where if say Wizz were to base, the likes of Travel House & Hays could use them. Its viability would be better as the flights would be supported by holiday makers as well as Wizz flight only bookings. Im not sure if Tour Operators use the Ryanair flights to transport their customers but I know Vueling get used often.

If routes from CWL can't be run viably then the question needs to be asked as to why the routes are running in the first place? I'm sure we'd all love to see Air Wales reborn serving the domestic routes, with the right cost base, timings and aircraft it could work, but then it would remain a small specialist carrier with limited route options. Personally i feel the Flybe deal was all wrong. Another WG todger swinging vanity project to say 'look at the routes we have' that eventually the realisation become clear that some of the routes weren't sustainable. There could be many reasons as to why, but for now its back to square one in hope that we see a return to the routes that were viable.

Everyone needs to realise that the reset button has been hit again, just like it was in the early 2010s, and it will take several years for CWL to build back up. Consolidate and concentrate on what works, rebuild passenger confidence in looking at CWL and using it and making routes profitable for Airlines.

[SWBKCB]

and without charging a supplement to do so?

Where do you get the scale to do this? And wouldn't a Cardiff based company mainly be serving South Wales?

What is the end game for WG - what would they regard as a "success" - operating at a profit? increased passenger numbers? "business friendly" flights to places of commercial/industrial importance? more links to hubs for global connectivity? cheap "bucket and spade" flights for welsh holidaymakers?

[highwideandugly]

Quote...The WG shouldn't be funding Tour Operators as it does nothing for the Welsh economy.

Teesside mayor doesn’t think so!

[PDXCWL45]

Is QR DOH gone for good?
Last time I checked it was due to restart at the end of October

[supermarine]

Whatever happened to Flyforbeans?

A half baked idea that was doomed by the last recession, this one would have completely wiped it out.

[OC37]

Where do you get the scale to do this? And wouldn't a Cardiff based company mainly be serving South Wales?

What is the end game for WG - what would they regard as a "success" - operating at a profit? increased passenger numbers? "business friendly" flights to places of commercial/industrial importance? more links to hubs for global connectivity? cheap "bucket and spade" flights for welsh holidaymakers?

Were Aspro Holidays mainly serving south Wales, most people were of the impression they were mainly serving Cyprus along with all the other IT destinations and from airports across the UK and N. Ireland??

And who suggested that it would be Cardiff based?

[SWBKCB]

Sorry - thought you were talking about a WG supported tour operator to serve Wales?

[OC37]

Sorry - thought you were talking about a WG supported tour operator to serve Wales?

Red Drogon Travel who owned Air Cymru were Cardiff based but that didn't stop them operating from the likes of LGW and leasing airc raft to the Airlines of Britain Group, they had a loyal following in Wales just for being a Welsh business.

Aspro Holidays much the same, the owners weren't even British never mind Welsh but had that loyal Welsh following just for being based there whilst they also operated thru such UK airports as BRS, EMA, GLA, NCL/ MAN. LTN, LGW, MSE & BFS.

What it seems CWL is suffering currently, according to other poster(s), is, dare I say it, 'English' tour operators who want to charge the Welsh a premium for the privilige of flying thru CWL, if WG can afford an airport can they not afford a tour operator to offer the travelling Welsh, even if they only travel once per year, a value for money product without overcharging them.

Yes, that tour operator/airline shall need to diversify in the quest for profit but then don't Welsh rugby ever play away? :)

[SWBKCB]

Depends what type of WG support you are talking about - could run into issues with competitors.

[TOM100]

CWL really doesn’t need to get more entangled with the WG - everything they touch is a disaster and state ownership is just another shackle around their business (what’s left of it). Why do you think IAG/BA are doing all they can to avoid state intervention (bailout) as if they accept it they will get state interference of some sort (however they dress it as commercial loans etc). The state does not run businesses well, period - that’s why they privatise. Come to think of it they don’t usually run states well either 😂

it’s really not the States job to provide holidays for its citizens, they have far more call for their resources at home (and they frequently screw this up too). Just saying.

Any operation needs to commercially stand on its own two feet. If it can’t there is no business there.

imo CWL should throw everything they have at FR and Jet2. If they are not interested then again no business here.

[PDXCWL45]

WG won't be interested in a tour operator. For them it'll be more about connecting Wales to UK and European cities and long haul for business and inbound tourism. Hence the PSO list they gave to the UK government and the German and Italian cities for Flybe operation and their target list of NYC, Toronto and Middle East hub.

[southside bobby]

The machinations behind IAG/BAW "avoiding state intervention" ie not requesting a Government loan is said to be boardroom strategy to deny reciprocal or similar Government help for Virgin.

[TOM100]

The machinations behind IAG/BAW "avoiding state intervention" ie not requesting a Government loan is said to be boardroom strategy to deny reciprocal or similar Government help for Virgin.

Whatever - they don’t want it. Am pretty sure they really see VS as an irrelevance at this stage. VS looks a basket case. Would they really want HMG saying you can’t do this or that (as a condition) to
them properly running their business commercially.

i am flying again from CWL this weekend (5th time since July). I hope I don’t see their MD running the coffee shop again !

[southside bobby]

Whatever-

Apologies if perhaps some of the facts may get in the way of the oration.

[TOM100]

Whatever-

Apologies if perhaps some of the facts may get in the way of the oration.

No idea what that means.....having worked at BA for years (relatively recently) my views are not mere conjecture.

[southside bobby]

Not mere conjecture...Deliberate BA strategy to distance themselves from state bailouts as it hurt UK rivals.

Not mere conjecture...BA would probably have accepted state aid either if Virgin with their own call succeeded or if Virgin eventually collapsed.

[OC37]

it’s really not the States job to provide holidays for its citizens, they have far more call for their resources at home (and they frequently screw this up too). Just saying.

So why is the state providing the gateway for those very citizens to travel to/from their holidays?

What I was suggesting that of all the WG incentives for businesses to develop in Wales could they not find a Holiday and/or tour operator business!

Any operation needs to commercially stand on its own two feet. If it can’t there is no business there.

Oh come on, why do you think BAMC opted to base themselves in Wales, Aston Martin are coming also I've read, why do you think Bruce started Cardiff Aviation in Wales, what about Bosch when they were there, Ford in Bridgend, why do you think Airbus UK have based themselves in Wales, and these are just a few that are there for the WG financial incentives?

imo CWL should throw everything they have at FR and Jet2. If they are not interested then again no business here.

MOL is an accountant by trade, I saw him in a TV interview regarding the MAX, all he could talk about was that with the MAX they could fly a few more pax whilst burning a few percent less fuel when compared to the -800, that is all he cares about, profit, he'll continue to utilise CWL so long as CWL give him what he wants and as soon as they stop he'll be on his bike, or should that be his MAX!

[macdo]

Red Drogon Travel who owned Air Cymru were Cardiff based but that didn't stop them operating from the likes of LGW and leasing airc raft to the Airlines of Britain Group, they had a loyal following in Wales just for being a Welsh business.

Aspro Holidays much the same, the owners weren't even British never mind Welsh but had that loyal Welsh following just for being based there whilst they also operated thru such UK airports as BRS, EMA, GLA, NCL/ MAN. LTN, LGW, MSE & BFS.

What it seems CWL is suffering currently, according to other poster(s), is, dare I say it, 'English' tour operators who want to charge the Welsh a premium for the privilige of flying thru CWL, if WG can afford an airport can they not afford a tour operator to offer the travelling Welsh, even if they only travel once per year, a value for money product without overcharging them.

Yes, that tour operator/airline shall need to diversify in the quest for profit but then don't Welsh rugby ever play away? :)

Lets not let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned nationalism!
The reason holidays from CWL were more expensive than elsewhere was the fact that the charges made by CWL were higher and the CWL management were unwilling to reduce them.
Due to this added burden, the Welsh public voted with their wallets and flew out of BRS.
Result can be observed in the pax figures for BRS and CWL respectively for at least the last 20 years.

Did I really see a reference to FlyForBeanz up there? Lord above!!

[PDXCWL45]

Looks like KLM are making some cuts in September, the 09.45 departure has been cut with the exception of Mondays. So looks like Cardiff to Amsterdam will be 8 weekly in September.

Also reported elsewhere Eastern Airways have posted a new job advert for cabin crew at Cardiff Airport. It was posted 3 days ago.
Also Qatar Airways have a job advert for Senior Airport Services Agent posted a month ago.
So fingers crossed it'll be good news for CWL.

[OC37]

Lets not let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned nationalism!
The reason holidays from CWL were more expensive than elsewhere was the fact that the charges made by CWL were higher and the CWL management were unwilling to reduce them.
Due to this added burden, the Welsh public voted with their wallets and flew out of BRS.
Result can be observed in the pax figures for BRS and CWL respectively for at least the last 20 years.

Did I really see a reference to FlyForBeanz up there? Lord above!!

Facts?

OK, for any punters some mid-point between BRS & CWL it is six of one and a half dozen of the other which airport they choose but for punters west of Newport and up the valleys travelling to BRS is not going to be cheap, around 100 miles round trip from/to central Cardiff or what price public transport for one, two, three or four persons?

On the overall cost of a holiday CWL, the airport, can have very little impact, contributing to the cost of that holiday are the hotel and transfer costs, overheads of both tour operator and airline, aircraft hull costs, fuel, overflight charges, destination airport charges, I mean that there are so many individual costs incorporated in to the cost of a holiday CWL cannot possibly have more than a negligible impact upon that cost by their prices of landing, navigation, any aircraft parking and what it costs per passenger to check-in thru until boarding the aircraft, I cannot imagine would get even close to financing the costs of travelling to/from BRS.

When these airlines, loco's in particular, squeeze the airport for reduced charges do you think that they are passing those reduced charges on to the passenger, of course a loco business model is 'cheap', I operate such a low cost business model myself, I search around for the best prices on supplies to calculate what I need to charge the customer but generally supplier cost savings serve to increase operator profits rather than customer savings, an example of this is in the past couple of years I changed to LED light bulbs to achieve a 22% reduction in the wattage of my business's lighting, do you think that saving has been passed on to the customer, no it hasn't, that has served to only reduce overheads increasing profits.

So if the costs of holidays are significantly higher from CWL then that is the tour operator charging the premium and cannot be blamed upon the airport, I've just checked KLM's fares from both BRS & CWL and they are charging the same base fare for both.

Comparing BRS & CWL's passenger figures serves no constructive purpose, rule no.2 of business is to concentrate on your own business and not what others are doing, so long as BRS have the clientele airlines then they shall always have the more passengers and that has nothing to do with CWL's charges, it is plain and simple geographic location.

Just look at BRS's catchment area, they've got Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Avon, Gloucestershire, Wilshire and much of Dorset, I have friends who live in Swindon, whilst they consider BRS to be their local airport if BRS wasn't there then they'd head off the other way along the M4 to LHR, little if any chance that they would ever contemplate utilising CWL and similarly for the people of the south and west of England, little if any chance that they would ever drive north past BRS to cross the Severn before travelling back south again to CWL, BRS shall always win simply because of geographic location and that is something that CWL cannot compete with.

I'm sure that CWL management are focusing upon their business, kind of a shame that others continue to focus upon what's happening across the other side of the Severn!

[caaardiff]

Lets not let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned nationalism!
The reason holidays from CWL were more expensive than elsewhere was the fact that the charges made by CWL were higher and the CWL management were unwilling to reduce them.
Due to this added burden, the Welsh public voted with their wallets and flew out of BRS.
Result can be observed in the pax figures for BRS and CWL respectively for at least the last 20 years.

Did I really see a reference to FlyForBeanz up there? Lord above!!

What is this based upon? The age old tale of CWL's landing fees?
Given that some holidays can be at least £50 per passenger more expensive at CWL, but at the same time you can often find deals equally priced or even cheaper, is this just not simply supply and demand? As the flight fills up, the price fluctuates.
Surely the Airport charges can't be that much higher to warrant the likes of TUI whacking a £50+ pp premium on to a flight. Airport charges don't come anywhere close to the amount that would add up to per passenger per aircraft.

[SWBKCB]

Smaller bases are generally more expensive - always have been. Economies of scale.

[macdo]

What is this based upon? The age old tale of CWL's landing fees?
Given that some holidays can be at least £50 per passenger more expensive at CWL, but at the same time you can often find deals equally priced or even cheaper, is this just not simply supply and demand? As the flight fills up, the price fluctuates.
Surely the Airport charges can't be that much higher to warrant the likes of TUI whacking a £50+ pp premium on to a flight. Airport charges don't come anywhere close to the amount that would add up to per passenger per aircraft.

I'm afraid they do add up to such a premium. Unfortunately I have seen the management spreadsheets of the cost to run a base at CWL for what was a major operator in the past. CWL is expensive and the lack of economies of scale are an additional burden. The public are incredibly price sensitive, to the extent that they will travel further to make a perceived saving. As I said a few posts back, this has all been discussed over and over for the past 20 years. The proof of the pudding is in the pax numbers.

[macdo]

Facts?


So if the costs of holidays are significantly higher from CWL then that is the tour operator charging the premium and cannot be blamed upon the airport, I've just checked KLM's fares from both BRS & CWL and they are charging the same base fare for both.


!

Sorry, not going down this ancient rabbit hole.

Just to address one point. KLM use their short haul services from regional airports as a loss leader to feed their long haul hub out of AMS. Nothing new again here, BA did it for years to LHR. LH to FRA etc etc.

[PDXCWL45]

I'm afraid they do add up to such a premium. Unfortunately I have seen the management spreadsheets of the cost to run a base at CWL for what was a major operator in the past. CWL is expensive and the lack of economies of scale are an additional burden. The public are incredibly price sensitive, to the extent that they will travel further to make a perceived saving. As I said a few posts back, this has all been discussed over and over for the past 20 years. The proof of the pudding is in the pax numbers.
Which airline are you talking about?

[OC37]

Sorry, not going down this ancient rabbit hole.

Just to address one point. KLM use their short haul services from regional airports as a loss leader to feed their long haul hub out of AMS. Nothing new again here, BA did it for years to LHR. LH to FRA etc etc.


Yes, been there and done that, I appreciate that, let's say, that the fare CWL/AMS/FCO can be the same, if not cheaper than, AMS/FCO but on this occasion I checked CWL/AMS/CWL and BRS/AMS/BRS so longer haul connections have got diddly squat to do with it and anyone here is as equalled abled as I am to check for themselves.

[caaardiff]

I'm afraid they do add up to such a premium. Unfortunately I have seen the management spreadsheets of the cost to run a base at CWL for what was a major operator in the past. CWL is expensive and the lack of economies of scale are an additional burden. The public are incredibly price sensitive, to the extent that they will travel further to make a perceived saving. As I said a few posts back, this has all been discussed over and over for the past 20 years. The proof of the pudding is in the pax numbers.

So are you digging up historic figures, 10, 20 years+ ago? Things are very different now. I cant imagine for one minute that Vueling or Ryanair are paying anything above the odds, if anything I can see Ryanair paying less than their normal going rate at other Airports just to get them back. Flybe were effectively paid to fly from CWL and I can imagine QR have been given a very good deal. TUI were pretty big 10 years ago at the peak and were back up to 3 summer aircraft last summer. Again, i can't imagine that would've happened without a good deal or CWL being profitable.
I can also imagine TCX were given a good deal to keep them there and then to get the A321 back towards the end.
Unless it can be proved otherwise, let's talk about the current time or recent past, rather than historic news that is likely to be a very different situation from now.

[CabinCrewe]

Also Qatar Airways have a job advert for Senior Airport Services Agent posted a month ago.
So fingers crossed it'll be good news for CWL.
Although one wonders why the previous employee jumped ship...

[macdo]

LoL, I'll revisit this thread in 2030 and see how it all panned out.

[OC37]

I can go back 30 years, indeed longer than 30 years, when I worked for a CWL based operator, thereafter I worked for other operators who would operate thru CWL and NEVER did I hear a single reference to CWL being expensive.

Airports all have their scales of charges, landing, navigation, parking etc. and I'd imagine that the regional airports, so to speak, recommended retail prices of these charges are all pretty much the same and if CWL has been historically overpriced, when compared to other airports, then why were such operators as Air Cymru and IEA basing their fleets in CWL, why were Manx Europe so keen to move in, I recall that BAC Express pretty much had a Shed or two based their, Norman Aircraft manufacturing crop sprayers there and thriving flying clubs to name but a few.

It is a rule of thumb of business that the greater volume of something that a business has then they can afford to let a percentage sell for a discounted price, that could be a hotel and rooms, an airline and seats or indeed an airport and movements.

What may have well happened is other airports, BRS perhaps, have reduced their charges to attract the volume, BRS's geographic location would permit them to do so, whilst with a lesser volume not permitting them to do so CWL got left behind, not a case that CWL have increased their prices but others have been able to reduce their prices, kind of alike the supermarket vs the convenience store scenario.

CWL doesn't have the volume to permit them to reduce prices when due to geographic location they're not going to reap the rewards of doing so, somewhat amusing though to repeatedly read complaints that CWL is too expensive whilst reading counterproductive complaints that CWL is a drain upon the taxpayers of Wales, you people can't have it both ways!

BRS were lucky to source and appoint obviously the right person for the job as MD back in the 1980's, perhaps one day CWL shall be so lucky also.

[MerchantVenturer]

Leaving aside the football supporter-type adulation that some aviation followers seem to pursue when it comes to nearby airports, there is no doubt that the fortunes of CWL and its neighbour at BRS are inextricably linked and have been for many, many years.

Looking back at CAA statistics over the past 60 years CWL and BRS were much of a muchness when it came to passenger numbers until the mid 1980s, with CWL slightly ahead for most, though not all, of the intervening years. It was fairly small beer though because annual numbers did not reach 300,000 at either airport until 1982. The last time that CWL handled more passengers in a calendar year than its neighbour was in 1986: 487,000-469,000.

OC37 makes a valid point about Les Wilson. Until he was appointed as BRS MD in 1980 the then city council-owned airport had been a drain on the purses of city rate payers and there were calls to close it. Les (tragically killed in a motor accident in 1995) might even have been the last chance saloon. He recognised the potential as Barbara Cassani and her senior colleagues did 20 years later when BRS was selected as GoFly’s second base with the airline later bought by easyJet.

BRS has also been fortunate (or perhaps good judgement on the part of the company played a part) in the quality of its senior management since Les Wilson’s time, with the various overseas owners following full privatisation in 2001 investing hundreds of millions of pounds into infrastructure and other amelioration.

Since the mid 1980s BRS has moved steadily ahead of CWL with the pace growing markedly this century following the arrival of GoFly to the point where in 2019 CWL handled 1.655 million against 8.959 million at BRS.

Why is that relevant to CWL? Mainly because between 12% and 20% of BRS’s annual passenger numbers (surveys down the years vary) originate or terminate in Wales. 20% in 2019 would mean nearly 1.8 million ‘Welsh’ passengers, more than used CWL in total.

Taking into account the number of BRS passengers from/to Devon and Cornwall as well means that the Lulsgate airport sees around a third of its passenger numbers generated from outside its core catchment.

BRS sits approximately midway between CWL and EXT and has a larger and generally more affluent catchment than these airports. This means it begins with a local passenger pool advantage and, because of its central position, is able to draw in passengers from both the CWL and EXT catchments to support those thinner routes that would not be viable at the other airports because of their smaller catchments and inability to ‘top up’ from the other (because of distance).

BRS also has a number of physical and operational disadvantages such as being positioned within the Green Belt, a small site, short runway, often poor weather across its 600 feet-plus AMSL elevation and difficult surface connectivity, most which don’t apply at CWL yet the airport has not yet managed to use any of these factors to significantly benefit itself.

OC37 also makes a point about passenger volume and its relationship with airport charges. A look at BRS’s accounts for the year ending 31 December 2018 (the latest year I can find) shows that its £112 million turnover contained only £42 million from aeronautical revenue. The rest was mainly the result of car parking and concessions which shows how much an airport like Bristol is heavily dependent on passenger footfall to feed its non-aeronautical revenue streams. The airport generated a profit of just under £36 million after tax that year.

It might be that CWL’s best chance for substantial growth in the future would be for BRS to lose its appeal to the Planning Inspectorate over the local authority’s decision to reject the airport’s expansion planning application earlier this year, which would mean a permanent cap of 10 mppa. Pre-Covid the BRS management projected that the ten million limit would be reached by the end of next year. The pandemic effect suggests that the airport will now take considerably longer to reach 10 mppa which might not be helpful to CWL, at least in the short term.

Both the Welsh Government and its airport company formally objected to BRS's expansion plans, saying that CWL had excess capacity and could handle the extra flights that BRS was seeking through its planning application.

As to a major ‘low-cost’ airline presence at CWL, Ryanair gave evidence to the Westminster Welsh Affairs Committee last year when the committee was enquiring into APD devolution to Wales. The airline said that APD was holding it back at CWL and if it was reduced or abolished Ryanair would put in more services there. I don’t know if this was simply part of Ryanair’s rhetoric in its longstanding campaign to have aviation taxes reduced or abolished across its network or whether it really was CWL-specific.

[SWBKCB]

BRS also has a number of physical and operational disadvantages such as being positioned within the Green Belt, a small site, short runway, often poor weather across its 600 feet-plus AMSL elevation and difficult surface connectivity, most which don’t apply at CWL yet the airport has not yet managed to use any of these factors to significantly benefit itself.

Impact of these sort of effects are often exagerated - airlines will work around them if the pax demand is there.

As to a major ‘low-cost’ airline presence at CWL, Ryanair gave evidence to the Westminster Welsh Affairs Committee last year when the committee was enquiring into APD devolution to Wales. The airline said that APD was holding it back at CWL and if it was reduced or abolished Ryanair would put in more services there. I don’t know if this was simply part of Ryanair’s rhetoric in its longstanding campaign to have aviation taxes reduced or abolished across its network or whether it really was CWL-specific.

Purely cost related, not CWL specifc - Ryanair are interested in reducing their cost of operation, and would have said the same anywhere

[OC37]

Purely cost related, not CWL specifc - Ryanair are interested in reducing their cost of operation, and would have said the same anywhere

Road vehicle drivers pay taxes for polluting our earth, smokers pay taxes for polluting our earth so why should air travellers not pay taxes for polluting our earth, if they cannot afford to travel then best they stay at home and to hell with lining the pockets of a non-UK national and his Irish airline shareholders, if they don't like it then they know what they can do!

[LTNman]

For a true low cost airport it means cutting staff costs. Welcome to the world of minimum wages and zero hour contracts. Is this the future for Cardiff or is it already at this point where annual leave, sick pay and NI contributions are a thing of the past for not only those employed directly by the airport but also the service providers like handling agents.

The airport slaves serve the better off who demand £10 fares and the likes of Ryanair who normally make eye watering profits oblige while wanting to pay airports nothing.

[ATNotts]

This is beginning to resemble a Cardiff airport "hamster wheel"!

[OC37]

This is beginning to resemble a Cardiff airport "hamster wheel"!


Much the same could be said for most of the airport threads, what is so different about this one?

[ATNotts]

Much the same could be said for most of the airport threads, what is so different about this one?

Nothing, just that the hamster appears to be running faster!!!

[OC37]

Nothing, just that the hamster appears to be running faster!!!

That'll be the half'n'half they all eat in Wales

[PDXCWL45]

Coronavirus: Cases on Tui flight from Zante to CardiffPublic Health Wales (PHW) is contacting the 193 passengers and crew on board.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53966897

[clivegore]

Outrageous that Tui staff allowed prople to discard their masks. This one invIdentify will put back the recovery by weeks.

[PDXCWL45]

Would be interesting to know if Cardiff Airport is one of the other 4 regional airports bidding for these Aer lingus A321lr trans Atlantic services.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-may-move-transatlantic-services-from-shannon-to-the-uk-1.4342317?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

[caaardiff]

I can imagine that they would also want connections to be able to feed into these flights from other Airports such as SNN and ORK, even DUB and some BA connections. Something CWL doesn't have at the moment.
I'd say Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh and either Bristol or Newcastle would be the potential regionals.

[PDXCWL45]

Oh I don't think CWL would stand a chance tbh especially as Aer Lingus doesn't even fly to Cardiff and if they are talking to Aer lingus I'd hope it would be about Dublin, Cork and Belfast not USA. But a NYC service is on the WG target list. Personally I expect it'll be Manchester and Edinburgh. But it would be good to know who the other 4 airports are!

[runway30]

Oh I don't think CWL would stand a chance tbh especially as Aer Lingus doesn't even fly to Cardiff and if they are talking to Aer lingus I'd hope it would be about Dublin, Cork and Belfast not USA. But a NYC service is on the WG target list. Personally I expect it'll be Manchester and Edinburgh. But it would be good to know who the other 4 airports are!

Now go back and look at which Regional Airports would have the financial muscle to do this, CWL would be on that list. Now go back and list the Regional Airports whose shareholders have had the desire to do this for a long time and are prepared to throw a lot of money at it, CWL would be on that list.

[PDXCWL45]

Now go back and look at which Regional Airports would have the financial muscle to do this, CWL would be on that list. Now go back and list the Regional Airports whose shareholders have had the desire to do this for a long time and are prepared to throw a lot of money at it, CWL would be on that list.
If the WG were going to get the cheque book out it would be for a scheduled long haul route which no doubt would look good attracting one just before an election!

[caaardiff]

Depends if EI/BA want to create whichever Airport as a mini long haul hub. CWL-New York might work, but that's about it, which is only 1 aircraft.

Is there enough demand in the region? I doubt it. Theres no connecting traffic through CWL. Especially with Airlines saying travel won't return to 2019 levels for a few years yet.

[runway30]

Depends if EI/BA want to create whichever Airport as a mini long haul hub. CWL-New York might work, but that's about it, which is only 1 aircraft.

Is there enough demand in the region? I doubt it. Theres no connecting traffic through CWL. Especially with Airlines saying travel won't return to 2019 levels for a few years yet.

I don’t think there is any wish to create anything. EI have two aircraft surplus and they want to be paid to place them somewhere. A match made in heaven for WG I would have thought.

[Letsflycwl]

With all the planned Eastern expansion notably at MME, SOU and other airports how come Eastern only appear to be advertising for cabin crew at CWL on their webpage ?

i know they do the twice daily CWL-VLY route with the based J41 and prior to COVID-19 they did the daily MME/ABZ but this was with a non based aircraft.

Would this cabin crew recruitment drive be purely for the VLY route or is something else in the planning for CWL as since the loss of Flybe, CWL has lost (and not replaced to date) BHD, DUB, EDI, GLA, JER and CDG.......all of which were the busiest schedule routes for CWL or is this just wishful thinking ? Just seems odd to be advertising solely for CWL based crew.

These destinations could fit in nicely with a based ATR I guess.

[PDXCWL45]

With all the planned Eastern expansion notably at MME, SOU and other airports how come Eastern only appear to be advertising for cabin crew at CWL on their webpage ?

i know they do the twice daily CWL-VLY route with the based J41 and prior to COVID-19 they did the daily MME/ABZ but this was with a non based aircraft.

Would this cabin crew recruitment drive be purely for the VLY route or is something else in the planning for CWL as since the loss of Flybe, CWL has lost (and not replaced to date) BHD, DUB, EDI, GLA, JER and CDG.......all of which were the busiest schedule routes for CWL or is this just wishful thinking ? Just seems odd to be advertising solely for CWL based crew.

These destinations could fit in nicely with a based ATR I guess.
It's an unknown, obviously we hope for something more but personally I can't see any of lost Flybe destinations returning until at least S21. At the moment we must assume that it's for the Anglesey route.

[yeo valley]

Originally Posted by Letsflycwl View Post (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599820-eastern-airways-2-a-38.html#post10877921)
With all the planned Eastern expansion notably at MME, SOU and other airports how come Eastern only appear to be advertising for cabin crew at CWL on their webpage ?

i know they do the twice daily CWL-VLY route with the based J41 and prior to COVID-19 they also did the daily MME/ABZ but this was with a non based aircraft.

Would this cabin crew recruitment drive be purely for the VLY route or is something else in the planning for CWL as since the loss of Flybe, CWL has lost (and not replaced to date) BHD, DUB, EDI, GLA, JER and CDG.......or is this just wishful thinking ? Just seems odd to be advertising solely for CWL based crew.
Airlines recruit from all different places for crew. The 2 airlines that spring to mind that had a advert for cabin crew around CWL was BA and Virgin,but neither fly any passenger services from CWL.I remember at the time there was a big discussion at the time and the same question was asked as you asked. Airlines recruit from all walks of life as it adresses the racist thing.Normaly the crew that apply for jobs get employed near to a base,as not many apply that live no where near a base,also it tells the airline what sort of people are out there in the big wide world. This practice has been going on like this for years. The sad part is this corona 19 has made airlines think and have and will do make redundancies.
yeo valley is online now Report Post (https://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=10878084)

[Letsflycwl]

Yeah but the Eastern Airways website states “CWL based cabin crew” hence the question......seems a big push if it was simply for the VLY route.

[fanrailuk]

Yeah but the Eastern Airways website states “CWL based cabin crew” hence the question......seems a big push if it was simply for the VLY route.

What I will add to this is that the information regarding recruitment being "open" for Cardiff has been on there for quite some time, even pre-pandemic days.

I can only imagine there was a drive to recruit at CWL for the VLY and MME routes (maybe using the CWL to route through MME and crew from there as well)... but I guess none of us know what's going on behind closed doors. And may never know.

[PDXCWL45]

Eastern Airways have put Anglesey onsale for Summer 2021. Same times from Cardiff as before 0735 and 1610 (15.10 on Fridays). Doesn't look like Teesside/Aberdeen is coming back.
The route is due to restart again on 19th October. Finger's crossed for that!

[PDXCWL45]

Bit of good news for CWL in that there will be an IOM Charter next summer.
https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1303695696063856641?s=19
Bad news is that unless CWL gets a based airline for next year to operate them it looks like there'll be no flights to Scotland as Loganair are adamant on social media that they will not be resuming Cardiff to Edinburgh or Glasgow for Summer 2021.

[Letsflycwl]

Bit of good news for CWL in that there will be an IOM Charter next summer.
https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1303695696063856641?s=19
Bad news is that unless CWL gets a based airline for next year to operate them it looks like there'll be no flights to Scotland as Loganair are adamant on social media that they will not be resuming Cardiff to Edinburgh or Glasgow for Summer 2021.

I still think there is something in the pipeline with Eastern ......just got a feeling they may take up the BE routes to BHD, DUB, EDI & possibly CDG. They will have the rule of the roost with no competition from Blue Islands or now Loganair.

[PDXCWL45]

I still think there is something in the pipeline with Eastern ......just got a feeling they may take up the BE routes to BHD, DUB, EDI & possibly CDG. They will have the rule of the roost with no competition from Blue Islands or now Loganair.
Thats probably CWLs only option to regain the Scottish routes. Ireland i suppose there's still a chance of Aer lingus and Paris probably a slim chance of Air France.

[Letsflycwl]

Yeah I tend to agree and prior to COVID-19 would have expected some form of deal to be arranged with CWL. BHD & EDI (possibly GLA) would be a good start along with VLY of course. Be great to have Aer Lingus Regional doing DUB again and as you said AF to CDG, should fit in nicely for HOP too.

COVID-19 has certainly thrown a spanner in the works with things.....can’t understand why Loganair have dropped EDI & GLA yet seem to be adding frequency from other regional airports. If they had x2 daily flights it would have been a good earner for them as EDI especially was one of the top destinations ex CWL.

Bring back Air Wales !!

[PDXCWL45]

Yeah I tend to agree and prior to COVID-19 would have expected some form of deal to be arranged with CWL. BHD & EDI (possibly GLA) would be a good start along with VLY of course. Be great to have Aer Lingus Regional doing DUB again and as you said AF to CDG, should fit in nicely for HOP too.

COVID-19 has certainly thrown a spanner in the works with things.....can’t understand why Loganair have dropped EDI & GLA yet seem to be adding frequency from other regional airports. If they had x2 daily flights it would have been a good earner for them as EDI especially was one of the top destinations ex CWL.

Bring back Air Wales !!
The CEO in an interview said Cardiff wasn't viable and there was no demand. Which maybe understandable for summer 2020 during Covid19 but in the future as demand recovers? Maybe there's more to the situation than we'll ever know?
Hopefully CWL will regain the routes in good time.

[CWL757]

The CEO in an interview said Cardiff wasn't viable and there was no demand. Which maybe understandable for summer 2020 during Covid19 but in the future as demand recovers? Maybe there's more to the situation than we'll ever know?
Hopefully CWL will regain the routes in good time.
I highly doubt there's little demand in normal times. I don't know why they didn't use a Saab 340 if the ERJ was to big. I think the failure was some crazy prices and a pathetic schedule. Unless as you mentioned, there's more to it.

[Letsflycwl]

I highly doubt there's little demand in normal times. I don't know why they didn't use a Saab 340 if the ERJ was to big. I think the failure was some crazy prices and a pathetic schedule. Unless as you mentioned, there's more to it.

can’t understand why Loganair said there was no demand, Flybe and BMI baby operated 3 flights a day on larger aircraft than the EM4. The demand was simply not there due to the silly excuse of flight timings they offered and just one flight a day in the evening. If Loganair were serious then they had the capacity and aircraft to do at least 2 a day. Just a publicity stunt to show them taking over BE routes to save the day more like.

[PDXCWL45]

can’t understand why Loganair said there was no demand, Flybe and BMI baby operated 3 flights a day on larger aircraft than the EM4. The demand was simply not there due to the silly excuse of flight timings they offered and just one flight a day in the evening. If Loganair were serious then they had the capacity and aircraft to do at least 2 a day. Just a publicity stunt to show them taking over BE routes to save the day more like.
Elsewhere it was mentioned that CWL-EDI wasn't the most profitable of routes under Flybe. Whether that changed or not when it went Q400 I don't know.
It's a shame now that Edinburgh especially seems to be lost as a route but hopefully Dublin and Paris aren't.

[Letsflycwl]

Elsewhere it was mentioned that CWL-EDI wasn't the most profitable of routes under Flybe. Whether that changed or not when it went Q400 I don't know.
It's a shame now that Edinburgh especially seems to be lost as a route but hopefully Dublin and Paris aren't.

I do agree with you regarding the DUB & CDG routes though......let’s hope these are picked up pretty soon once this COVID-19 pandemic calms down a notch.

[BHX5DME]

3,506 pax in July !

[OC37]

I do agree with you regarding the DUB & CDG routes though......let’s hope these are picked up pretty soon once this COVID-19 pandemic calms down a notch.

But CWL does have a CDG connection, last time I travelled on the blue Fokker, these days an Embraer, it was on an AF flight no. CWL/CDG via AMS:

Departing: Cardiff International Airport (CWL), Cardiff, United Kingdom
16:50 Sat
Arriving: Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, (AMS), Amsterdam, Netherlands
19:05 Sat
Air France (AF 8348) Aircraft type - F70

[PDXCWL45]

But CWL does have a CDG connection, last time I travelled on the blue Fokker, these days an Embraer, it was on an AF flight no. CWL/CDG via AMS:

Departing: Cardiff International Airport (CWL), Cardiff, United Kingdom
16:50 Sat
Arriving: Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, (AMS), Amsterdam, Netherlands
19:05 Sat
Air France (AF 8348) Aircraft type - F70
Not really a direct route. Yes you can use Amsterdam as with lots of other European cities and i have done so but its not the same.

[OC37]

Not really a direct route. Yes you can use Amsterdam as with lots of other European cities and i have done so but its not the same.

My point was that CWL was/is on the Air France network, people can travel to/from CWL with AF even if it isn't such a direct routing as it could be but how likely would any future CDG route operator be to have a codeshare with AF?

[CabinCrewe]

Depends if EI/BA want to create whichever Airport as a mini long haul hub. CWL-New York might work, but that's about it, which is only 1 aircraft.

Is there enough demand in the region?
No. CWL-NYC... really?

[supermarine]

No. CWL-NYC... really?

We had a great time in New York two years ago but I would not go near the place today, it is reverting back to the bad old days according to mates who live there and are trying to move upstate as soon as they can !

[PDXCWL45]

Considering the capacity for New York just down the road at Heathrow even I question whether a direct route would be viable even pre Covid19.
At the moment CWL needs to concentrate on Ireland and Europe.

[ATNotts]

Considering the capacity for New York just down the road at Heathrow even I question whether a direct route would be viable even pre Covid19.
At the moment CWL needs to concentrate on Ireland and Europe.

Exactly, I really do wonder what it is about New York that really is so important to airport enthusiasts. The seat of world economic power is moving east, and in terms of long haul Qatar need to be nurtured during these covid times, so that they are still in Cardiff when the dark clouds have lifted.

More urgent priorities, for the Welsh economy, and to assist in attracting inward investment, are decent multi-daily connections to 2 or 3 of Europe's major hub airports - AMS, FRA and one other I suggest.

[PDXCWL45]

Exactly, I really do wonder what it is about New York that really is so important to airport enthusiasts. The seat of world economic power is moving east, and in terms of long haul Qatar need to be nurtured during these covid times, so that they are still in Cardiff when the dark clouds have lifted.

More urgent priorities, for the Welsh economy, and to assist in attracting inward investment, are decent multi-daily connections to 2 or 3 of Europe's major hub airports - AMS, FRA and one other I suggest.
I think it's a prestige thing and that NYC is one of the big financial centres in the world.

[TOM100]

Incredible that CWL saw the largest YOY drop in pax numbers of any UK airport in July. They cannot sustain an operation of their current size and cost levels on these kind of pax numbers.

You have to hope they are really seriously considering how they can respond. Given furlough ends in Oct if they are going to reduce their variable costs substantially eg people then consultations should have commenced by now. Maybe they
have ? As an aside I returned through CWL last week and its arrival appearance was shabby - flickering lights, broken lights, error messages on lots of screens and with the one flight, first bags on belt took 25-30 mins (not sure last but my bag came out after about 35 mins and there were still a lot of people waiting). Given they must have a lot of people with spare capacity you would think they could present the terminal in tip top condition.

STANSTED 468,537 down -83.0
LUTON 467,605 down -74.1
MANCHESTER 332,158 down -89.6
GATWICK 280,475 down -94.1
EDINBURGH 168,976 down -88.8
BIRMINGHAM 135,145 down -90.0
BRISTOL 121,115 down -87.6
BELFAST INTERNATIONAL 103,921 down -83.7
LIVERPOOL (JOHN LENNON) 81,890 down -83.5
EAST MIDLANDS INTERNATIONAL 79,447 down -86.1
GLASGOW 68,952 down -92.9
ABERDEEN 59,338 down -78.8
LEEDS BRADFORD 52,631 down -89.1
NEWCASTLE 49,623 down -91.7
DONCASTER SHEFFIELD 26,530 down -83.8
BELFAST CITY (GEORGE BEST) 22,976 down -91.0
JERSEY 21,845 down -88.4
SOUTHEND 20,819 down -91.1
BOURNEMOUTH 16,280 down -82.9
PRESTWICK 13,851 down -82.9
LONDON CITY 12,653 down -97.4
INVERNESS 11,568 down -87.9
SUMBURGH 9,962 down -62.5
SOUTHAMPTON 7,594 down -95.8
NORWICH 6,715 down -88.5
CITY OF DERRY (EGLINTON) 6,683 down -65.3
GUERNSEY 5,962 down -93.3
ISLES OF SCILLY (ST.MARYS) 5,003 down -62.9
LANDS END (ST JUST) 4,172 down -46.9
CARDIFF WALES 3,506 down -98.3
KIRKWALL 3,393 down -79.3
ALDERNEY 2,705 down -51.5
ISLE OF MAN 2,611 down -96.6
NEWQUAY 2,387 down -96.0
STORNOWAY 2,359 down -80.7
EXETER 2,150 down -98.1

[PDXCWL45]

I'm sure management will do what they feel is best for the business. 25 minutes sound's reasonable especially as I'd have thought that the airport was on skeleton crewing. The drop in numbers is no different from other Flybe reliant airports.
CAA Stats July 2020
3506 passengers used the airport in July down 98% on 2019. The rolling year was 879,000 down 46.5% on 2019.
Domestic
Humberside 70
Leeds Bradford 67
Liverpool 68
Teesside 66
European
Faro 818 -88%
Alicante 366 -97%
Barcelona 428 -87%
Malaga 1623 -89%

[ATNotts]

TOM100

I imagine, regarding the evident shabbyness of the terminal and system, and the perceived delay in baggage reclaim, CWL is keeping staffing to an absolute minimum to keeps costs down. In their position I'd be doing very similar.