Cardiff-2

[caaardiff]

27 minutes really isnt excessive for a standard a320/737 flight. Most Airlines expect no more than 30 minute delivery time, 40 for charters with full baggage loads. If you think bags just magically roll out of the hold, onto a trolley and straight into the baggage hall you may want to do a shift as a baggage handler. Peoples expectation of these things really are surprising. Even if it was an Embraer 27 minutes isnt the quickest but certainly isnt worthy to complain about.
You also might want to read Bristols twitter psge which is constantly covered with complaints about baggage delivery. An hour, sometimes over 1.5hr wait times.

[Midland Alpha9]

27 minutes really isnt excessive for a standard a320/737 flight. Most Airlines expect no more than 30 minute delivery time, 40 for charters with full baggage loads. If you think bags just magically roll out of the hold, onto a trolley and straight into the baggage hall you may want to do a shift as a baggage handler. Peoples expectation of these things really are surprising. Even if it was an Embraer 27 minutes isnt the quickest but certainly isnt worthy to complain about.
You also might want to read Bristols twitter psge which is constantly covered with complaints about baggage delivery. An hour, sometimes over 1.5hr wait times.

Caaardiff for your information I have done plenty of shifts loading bags in my time during industrial action at LHR I am only too aware there is certainly no magic involved. I would concur my expectation of baggage delivery at CWL would be one of a better performance than LHR.
With respect I prefer to compare travel between CWL and BRS, from my own experience as a very frequent user of both airports rather than some social media. Passenger perception is everything when the bags arrived in the hall on friday evening a cheer of relief rang out. If you think 30 minutes is acceptable for a first bag to arrive at the belt for a Embraer or any other aircraft for that matter than I don't think you are too knowledgeable of airline QLA'S unless of course you are an employee of the current Ground Handler at CWL.
I reiterate my first choice whenever possible is to use CWL either on business or leisure, I am one of the individuals who have contributed to the seasonal increase in passenger numbers referred to previously.

My point is I am aware a lot of people have worked very hard to move CWL airport out of ' intensive care' in the past three years but the third party suppliers need to be on the same journey to ensure a sustained improvement with the customer service experience. It is not about a passenger whining about my experience, if it is I can simply vote with my feet.

MA9.

[PDXCWL45]

Midland Alpha 9
I'm just curious but which airline did you fly with and do you know what stand you parked on?
My experience of CWL is with Flybe and KLM both operate Embraers. Flybe have usually parked on stand 1 or 3 and 10 while KLM always go on 9 and my luggage has always pretty quick to get to the baggage hall maybe because the handlers don't have far to go as they would if the aircraft was parked on say stand 12. My experience has generally been leaving the airport roughly 30 mins after landing with luggage.

[Midland Alpha9]

Midland Alpha 9
I'm just curious but which airline did you fly with and do you know what stand you parked on?
My experience of CWL is with Flybe and KLM both operate Embraers. Flybe have usually parked on stand 1 or 3 and 10 while KLM always go on 9 and my luggage has always pretty quick to get to the baggage hall maybe because the handlers don't have far to go as they would if the aircraft was parked on say stand 12. My experience has generally been leaving the airport roughly 30 mins after landing with luggage.

PDXCWL on this occasion I flew in with Ryanair not sure of stand number but it was quite a walk (for Cardiff) I would agree normally no complaints about timings etc but ironically my previous flight through CWL was an easyjet diversion from BRS and the ground staff were not particularly helpful which I put down to the pressure of disruption and diversions but last friday we were the only arrival at 1850.
In my vast global experience within aviation I have come across many monopoly or duopoly suppliers with performance levels that drags the reputation of the airline and more importantly in this case the airport into disrepute which i feel should be challenged after all the hard effort (which I am aware of) to make CWL a success once again.

[PDXCWL45]

Midland Alpha 9
It sounds like you were parked on stand 12 or 13 maybe hence the longer walk.
As the airport grows i suppose it will be a challenge for Swissport to keep the staffing numbers high enough to cope with it all especially as i can't see another handler coming in either.

[caaardiff]

PDXCWL on this occasion I flew in with Ryanair not sure of stand number but it was quite a walk (for Cardiff) I would agree normally no complaints about timings etc but ironically my previous flight through CWL was an easyjet diversion from BRS and the ground staff were not particularly helpful which I put down to the pressure of disruption and diversions but last friday we were the only arrival at 1850.
In my vast global experience within aviation I have come across many monopoly or duopoly suppliers with performance levels that drags the reputation of the airline and more importantly in this case the airport into disrepute which i feel should be challenged after all the hard effort (which I am aware of) to make CWL a success once again.

So you're talking a 737 from Tenerife or Faro. Both being a popular holiday destination where there is often a high number of checked in luggage. Anywhere between 100-150 bags. It's likely the flight was busy and given FR's new hand luggage policy there will often be lots more hand luggage to unload as well. You could be talking 50-100+ additional hand luggage of passengers that aren't priority boarding. So anywhere really between 150-250 bags to offload that will likely be split between 2 holds. That's charter 757 loads which get an hour turnaround.
It doesn't matter who the handling agent is, the performance will be the same.
I really don't think one flight which delivered bags within the time stipulated by the Airline (And likely the Airport that will have it's own SLA's with a handler) is any cause for concern or is even worth of a topic. If it was a continuing trend then it would be something to worry about. This isn't.

[PDXCWL45]

For April and May 2019 Qatar Airways have increased flights to Doha from 5 weekly to 6 weekly with the addition of a Thursday flight. Only day it doesn't operate on is Monday.

[SWBKCB]

Does this coincide with the runway closures at DXB? May in particular is usually quieter for the ME3 because of the impact of Ramadan.

[PDXCWL45]

Does this coincide with the runway closures at DXB? May in particular is usually quieter for the ME3 because of the impact of Ramadan.
I honestly have no idea. It could be possible but I've also heard that the route is doing well and better than expected. Either way Qatar must be confident that they can sell the extra flights during that period which is great for Cardiff and Wales!

[Midland Alpha9]

I honestly have no idea. It could be possible but I've also heard that the route is doing well and better than expected. Either way Qatar must be confident that they can sell the extra flights during that period which is great for Cardiff and Wales!
PDXCWL45 This is standard protocol for QR on a regional route they start with 5X weekly and with some degree of confidence of performance they will ratchet it up to a daily frequency. Good news https://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

[Midland Alpha9]

So you're talking a 737 from Tenerife or Faro. Both being a popular holiday destination where there is often a high number of checked in luggage. Anywhere between 100-150 bags. It's likely the flight was busy and given FR's new hand luggage policy there will often be lots more hand luggage to unload as well. You could be talking 50-100+ additional hand luggage of passengers that aren't priority boarding. So anywhere really between 150-250 bags to offload that will likely be split between 2 holds. That's charter 757 loads which get an hour turnaround.
It doesn't matter who the handling agent is, the performance will be the same.
I really don't think one flight which delivered bags within the time stipulated by the Airline (And likely the Airport that will have it's own SLA's with a handler) is any cause for concern or is even worth of a topic. If it was a continuing trend then it would be something to worry about. This isn't.

Interestingly Today I spoke with senior management at Ryanair, who has responsibility for this area, He said his expectation would be to have first bag on the belt within 20 minutes of ATA . I agree there is no further point in discussing this on this forum there is a new FR Regional Manager starting next month I will discuss directly.

[PDXCWL45]

Interestingly Today I spoke with senior management at Ryanair, who has responsibility for this area, He said his expectation would be to have first bag on the belt within 20 minutes of ATA . I agree there is no further point in discussing this on this forum there is a new FR Regional Manager starting next month I will discuss directly.
While you are talking to him/her ask them for some new routes! Malta would be great!

[PDXCWL45]

The Red Arrows will be at Cardiff Airport on Saturday and Sunday the times are as follows.
Saturday arrive 14.46 depart 17.01 arrive 17 41.
Sunday depart 11.43 arrive 12.26 depart 14.26.

[PDXCWL45]

It looks like Thomas Cook will base an aircraft from April in 2019 instead of starting in May. They'll operate 11 weekly flights.
Looking at their flight website it looks like Larnaca 1 weekly , Palma de Mallorca 2 weekly, Lanzarote 1 weekly, Tenerife South 3 weekly, Antalya 1 weekly (based aircraft reverts to non based in May), Dalaman 2 weekly and Enfidha 1 weekly.

[flyerboy]

Doubt he is on the inside

Looks like I knew more than you thought though!!
Unless of course you think 2965 of 11234 seats is good.
Remember he who laughs last laughs longest!!

[PDXCWL45]

Doubt he is on the inside

Looks like I knew more than you thought though!!
Unless of course you think 2965 of 11234 seats is good.
Remember he who laughs last laughs longest!!

The loads were up and down in that month with good days and bad days. From what i'm told the the route is growing well and the airport and the airline are very happy with the route and how it is progressing. And yes i do think it is good as if you'd told me 2 years ago that Cardiff would have Qatar Airways flying to and from my country daily i would've laughed at you and said you are nuts.

[PDXCWL45]

CAA Stats for May 2018
The airport saw 164,897 passengers through the terminal up 12% on last year. The rolling 12 month total was 1,511,504 up 9.2% on 2017. The Atms were 1658 for May up 2.2%.

Domestic routes for May 2018
Aberdeen TBA
Anglesey 1357 +37%
Belfast City TBA
Bournemouth 76
Edinburgh 9797 +22%
Glasgow 2945 +40%
Guernsey 51 -91%
Jersey 2213 +37%
Newcastle 1127 -17%

European and International routes May 2018
Larnaca 2552 +5%
Paphos 1867 +12%
Paris CDG 6835 +38%
Berlin TXL 1133 -10%
Dusseldorf 289 +24%
Munich 1158 -8%
Corfu 1263 -1%
Heraklion 1651 -1%
Keffalinia 1639 +2%
Kos 536 -1%
Rhodes 3199 +1%
Zakinthos 2952 -10%
Cork 1265 +38%
Dublin 9192 +16%
Milan MXP 1841 -23%
Rome FCP 1522 +6%
Venice 943
Verona 1455 +29%
Amsterdam 12,042 +2%
Faro 9092 +26%
Alicante 11,069 +1%
Barcelona 3524 +23%
Bilbao 347
Ibiza 4480 -18%
Mahon 2506 -20%
Malaga 10,567 +6%
Palma de Mallorca 17,307 +6%
Reus 2780 +2%
Vitoria 265
Arrecife 4921 +18%
Las Palmas 1482 +1%
Tenerife South 7644 +6%
Akureyri 182
Keflavik 2
Antalya 1868
Dalaman 5240 +23%
Burgas 1416 -14%
Doha 2965

[PDXCWL45]

Doubt he is on the inside

Looks like I knew more than you thought though!!
Unless of course you think 2965 of 11234 seats is good.
Remember he who laughs last laughs longest!!

There was only 10,951 seats onsale as the 1st A350 arrival was a non revenue one.

[bycrewlgw]

Doubt he is on the inside

Looks like I knew more than you thought though!!
Unless of course you think 2965 of 11234 seats is good.
Remember he who laughs last laughs longest!!

Do we have to explain yield again?

[flyerboy]

Do we have to explain yield again?

Not to me but you can if it helps.

[PDXCWL45]

Do we have to explain yield again?

Not to me but you can if can if it helps.
Do you know how much cargo was shipped using the Doha route?

[SWBKCB]

Do you know how much cargo was shipped using the Doha route?

152 tonnes according to the CAA stats.

There was only 10,951 seats onsale as the 1st A350 arrival was a non revenue one.

And? The non-revenue pax will have been included in the 2,965 pax carried

I know it's early days, but yields will need to be stellar if the L/F is 30%.

[PDXCWL45]

152 tonnes according to the CAA stats.



And? The non-revenue pax will have been included in the 2,965 pax carried

I know it's early days, but yields will need to be stellar if the L/F is 30%.
Well Qatar must be happy as they increased to 6 weekly in May 2019.

[SWBKCB]

Well Qatar must be happy as they increased to 6 weekly in May 2019.

For April and May 2019 Qatar Airways have increased flights to Doha from 5 weekly to 6 weekly with the addition of a Thursday flight. Only day it doesn't operate on is Monday.

Is that for the full season or just April and May?

[PDXCWL45]

.

Is that for the full season or just April and May?
April and May at the moment .

[Sean North]

152 tonnes and a 26% load factor isn't that profitable. The whole route is completely stupid. It's a vanity route and Qatar is only flying it because of WG help. It's going to be downgraded to a 320 soon and the frequency cut. That is, if there is not a contract stipulating frequency for political reasons.

@PDXCWL45, Qatar don't exactly have an aircraft shortage, do they? Not only are they desperate to lease planes to other airlines like BA, they have lots sitting around doing nothing. They might as well fly this route because it would not surprise me if the WG is underwriting any losses or give other incentives. But we'll never know "commercial reasons" will be cited in any FoI request.

[EK77WNCL]

If they were to operate the route x1.5 weekly on the 787, they'd be rolling in it with 97.25% load factors! Say every Monday and every other Friday, I think it could work. In time they might be able to profitably run a twice weekly A350 in and out of Cardiff.

I'm sorry, I'm willing to give any operation the benefit of the doubt and I love supporting the underdogs. I wished Cardiff well but this is just ridiculous. Anyone airline in their right mind would have picked Bristol... And any airport that had the slightest intention of making money out of this and building a stable relationship and profitable route, would not have picked Qatar. This is just another example of QR's dodgy business practices. Thank God the average member of the public doesn't understand how these operations work and are probably still naive enough to believe this is a positive thing for Cardiff, Wales and the South West.

[Sean North]

If they were to operate the route x1.5 weekly on the 787, they'd be rolling in it with 97.25% load factors! Say every Monday and every other Friday, I think it could work. In time they might be able to profitably run a twice weekly A350 in and out of Cardiff.

I'm sorry, I'm willing to give any operation the benefit of the doubt and I love supporting the underdogs. I wished Cardiff well but this is just ridiculous. Anyone airline in their right mind would have picked Bristol... And any airport that had the slightest intention of making money out of this and building a stable relationship and profitable route, would not have picked Qatar. This is just another example of QR's dodgy business practices. Thank God the average member of the public doesn't understand how these operations work and are probably still naive enough to believe this is a positive thing for Cardiff, Wales and the South West.

An accurate summary there. Long-haul to the Middle East is not a game changer as some hardcore Cardiff Airport fans would have you believe. They look only for the positive and ignore the negatives. Cardiff Airport should stop chasing long haul travel. If the Welsh Government has sense it would undercut Bristol, hand out wads of cash, and beg Ryanair to make Cardiff a hub like Southend.

[Letsflycwl]

Yes the QR loads are low for May but this was the 1st month of operation, people really need to give this route chance to prove itself before slating it.

I imagine there will be an increase in figures for the next coming months as people get to hear about it and use it. From what I’ve read and seen the fairs are reasonable too if booked in advance (as many people do).

Maybe a daily service was excessive and 3 or 4 times a week would have been better, however we have this route from a world class carrier and should support it and not constantly knock it.

Im sure people would not have been happy if they chose BRS, but they didnt, they chose CWL and time will tell over the next couple of months (not just month 1 of operation) how successful it is and will be

[LGS6753]

Qatar don't exactly have an aircraft shortage, do they? Not only are they desperate to lease planes to other airlines like BA, they have lots sitting around doing nothing.

Qatar (the country) is being sanctioned by various other Middle East states, including Saudi and Egypt, hence their current fleet availability. If that is resolved, they will have greater need for their fleet.

[PDXCWL45]

Im sure people would not have been happy if they chose BRS, but they didnt, they chose CWL and time will tell over the next couple of months (not just month 1 of operation) how successful it is and will be

And i think for many here that is the bugbear and why many are against the route and willing it too fail because in their minds Qatar were supposed to pick Bristol not Cardiff and that seems to offended many people on this site because something positive has happended to Wales. I do wonder if there will be the same negativity if/when Qatar launch Belfast. There are many reasons why Cardiff was chosen over Bristol and Welsh Government lobbying is just one of them.

[PDXCWL45]

If they were to operate the route x1.5 weekly on the 787, they'd be rolling in it with 97.25% load factors! Say every Monday and every other Friday, I think it could work. In time they might be able to profitably run a twice weekly A350 in and out of Cardiff.

I'm sorry, I'm willing to give any operation the benefit of the doubt and I love supporting the underdogs. I wished Cardiff well but this is just ridiculous. Anyone airline in their right mind would have picked Bristol... And any airport that had the slightest intention of making money out of this and building a stable relationship and profitable route, would not have picked Qatar. This is just another example of QR's dodgy business practices. Thank God the average member of the public doesn't understand how these operations work and are probably still naive enough to believe this is a positive thing for Cardiff, Wales and the South West.

The route wouldn't be viable on that frequency and yes the route is a positive for Wales as a country just like the Dubai route is for the North East.

[Letsflycwl]

And i think for many here that is the bugbear and why many are against the route and willing it too fail because in their minds Qatar were supposed to pick Bristol not Cardiff and that seems to offended many people on this site because something positive has happended to Wales. I do wonder if there will be the same negativity if/when Qatar launch Belfast. There are many reasons why Cardiff was chosen over Bristol and Welsh Government lobbying is just one of them.


I could not have said it any better than that !!! Totally agree with you here

[EK77WNCL]

Is it really a positive for wales if it's just having money thrown at it? Taxpayer's money I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong). I can draw some significant differences between CWL-DOH and NCL-DXB. Vague similarities are that they both started with roughly 8 months of advances sales from the original press release, both started on 1st of the month and were on similarly sized, two class aircraft (788 - 254 vs A332 - 278). That's where it ends. September 2007 saw 9552 passengers fly NCL-DXB. Yes, it was daily, but CWL-DOH was originally sold as daily. 9552 passengers is a 57% load factor on the 278 seat A330. EK's fares were/are also slightly higher than QR's. Were QR not selling CWL-SYD for something crazy like £400 return a few months ago. 26% is not a sustainable load factor, not by a long shot, not even if every single seat was full fare!

I say this as if it matters to Qatar Airways, who seem to care very little for any kind of economic viability. As long as they can say they serve the most capital cities, I'll just sit back and watch them live in their own little bubble. It's a real shame though, they could genuinely have something to offer Wales and the South West if they weren't so reckless!

[PDXCWL45]

Is it really a positive for wales if it's just having money thrown at it? Taxpayer's money I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong). I can draw some significant differences between CWL-DOH and NCL-DXB. Vague similarities are that they both started with roughly 8 months of advances sales from the original press release, both started on 1st of the month and were on similarly sized, two class aircraft (788 - 254 vs A332 - 278). That's where it ends. September 2007 saw 9552 passengers fly NCL-DXB. Yes, it was daily, but CWL-DOH was originally sold as daily. 9552 passengers is a 57% load factor on the 278 seat A330. EK's fares were/are also slightly higher than QR's. Were QR not selling CWL-SYD for something crazy like £400 return a few months ago. 26% is not a sustainable load factor, not by a long shot, not even if every single seat was full fare!

I say this as if it matters to Qatar Airways, who seem to care very little for any kind of economic viability. As long as they can say they serve the most capital cities, I'll just sit back and watch them live in their own little bubble. It's a real shame though, they could genuinely have something to offer Wales and the South West if they weren't so reckless!
So a government spending money promoting Wales not just as a tourist destination but as a place for business and investment isn't a positive thing in your mind? As for load factors the route has gotten off to a slow a start yes but Cardiff is different than Newcastle and will need time to build the route up which will happen.
So serving Wales is in your eyes reckless let me guess because they should've gone to Bristol?

[SWBKCB]

Clearly it is far to early to say if the route is a failure or a success, so the comments about "it's all positive" are as invalid as the "we're all doomed" types. I thought generally Prunners we're in favour of routes being given time to develop?

I have no problem with the WG as owners of the airport offering start up support, so long as the within the realms of that available from other commercial operators in the rest of the country - there should be a level playing field.

And to be honest, if Qatar want to operate an un-commercial service as a vanity project, are we bothered so long as the service is sustained and isn't constantly chopped and changed??

Being able to offer "Global connectivity" must be a good thing for the Welsh economy.

[ATNotts]

Yes the QR loads are low for May but this was the 1st month of operation, people really need to give this route chance to prove itself before slating it.

I imagine there will be an increase in figures for the next coming months as people get to hear about it and use it. From what I’ve read and seen the fairs are reasonable too if booked in advance (as many people do).

Maybe a daily service was excessive and 3 or 4 times a week would have been better, however we have this route from a world class carrier and should support it and not constantly knock it.

Im sure people would not have been happy if they chose BRS, but they didnt, they chose CWL and time will tell over the next couple of months (not just month 1 of operation) how successful it is and will be

QR loads across all their UK routes were pretty dire in April, and certainly not too much can be read into one month's figures, especially when that one month is the first month of operation. One thing is for certain, they can't make money on 30% passenger load factors even if the aircraft are rammed with cargo on all sectors but sometimes you wonder if QR is actually there to make money, or is a vanity project for the country's leaders.

Problem with reducing frequency to 3 or so per week is that you're making the service less attractive to business passengers who need frequency and flexibility, and if a route is to survive on lower loads then front end loads have to be good - that is where the likes of LHR succeed and BHX fail.

I wouldn't be too despondent unless passenger numbers aren't very significantly improved by September.

[ivor toolbox]

And i think for many here that is the bugbear and why many are against the route and willing it too fail because in their minds Qatar were supposed to pick Bristol not Cardiff and that seems to offended many people on this site because something positive has happended to Wales. I do wonder if there will be the same negativity if/when Qatar launch Belfast. There are many reasons why Cardiff was chosen over Bristol and Welsh Government lobbying is just one of them.

Lack of a dedicated air freight handler probably also goes against Bristol as well.... way back in the day they used to have one, but got rid in favour of car parking and lo cost operators. Their choice.

Ttfn

[PDXCWL45]

Lack of a dedicated air freight handler probably also goes against Bristol as well.... way back in the day they used to have one, but got rid in favour of car parking and lo cost operators. Their choice.

Ttfn
Yep and the runway length as well. Other reasons as well.

[SWBKCB]

Other reasons as well.

Such as???

[supermarine]

Such as???

Lack of government support :O

[PDXCWL45]

Such as???

Cardiff is a capital city for a start which i believe is important because Qatar may well want to be the only ME3 airline that flies to all the capitals of the UK eventually.
Cardiff has a lot of events which gives it, for it's size, a high profile. Also Cardiff being a smaller airport means Qatar have much more of a say when it comes to fees in the future than they would at Bristol and for Qatar having a government to work with will no doubt be a positive, Bristol doesn't have a South West regional government to work with to attract routes like this. Another factor as well could be the BAMC base as it means that engineers qualified on the 787 from a partner airline are onsite if the aircraft went tech.

[Centre cities]

Cardiff is a capital city for a start which i believe is important because Qatar may well want to be the only ME3 airline that flies to all the capitals of the UK eventually.
Cardiff has a lot of events which gives it, for it's size, a high profile. Also Cardiff being a smaller airport means Qatar have much more of a say when it comes to fees in the future than they would at Bristol and for Qatar having a government to work with will no doubt be a positive, Bristol doesn't have a South West regional government to work with to attract routes like this. Another factor as well could be the BAMC base as it means that engineers qualified on the 787 from a partner airline are onsite if the aircraft went tech.

So is it being intimated that the route exists because the normal financial route operating pentameters do not apply to Qatar.

There must be some financial implication otherwise the route would still be daily as originally advertised.

Centre cities

[PDXCWL45]

So is it being intimated that the route exists because the normal financial route operating pentameters do not apply to Qatar.

There must be some financial implication otherwise the route would still be daily as originally advertised.

Centre cities
The route is daily until November then it goes to 5 weekly then in April and May 2019 it goes 6 weekly.

[edi_local]

Cardiff is a capital city for a start which i believe is important because Qatar may well want to be the only ME3 airline that flies to all the capitals of the UK eventually.
Cardiff has a lot of events which gives it, for it's size, a high profile. Also Cardiff being a smaller airport means Qatar have much more of a say when it comes to fees in the future than they would at Bristol and for Qatar having a government to work with will no doubt be a positive, Bristol doesn't have a South West regional government to work with to attract routes like this. Another factor as well could be the BAMC base as it means that engineers qualified on the 787 from a partner airline are onsite if the aircraft went tech.


You'd think so, but BA do not actually provide the maintenance for QR at CWL, It's done by, I believe, Storm Aviation.

I'm sure if worse came to worse BA would offer assistance or parts, but they are not the default option.

[PDXCWL45]

TUI are now offering packages to the Far East from Cardiff and this what they are offering.
Bali 1 weekly on Sundays until October 2018.
Thailand has 3 offerings.
Khao Lak 2 weekly Sunday and Tuesday until April 2019.
Krabi 2 weekly Sunday and Tuesday until April 2019.
Phuket 2 weeky Sunday and Tuesday until April 2019.
Sri Lanka 4 weekly Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday until October 2018.
Maldives 1 weekly Sunday until October 2018 though with there isn't anything onsale.
Curiously the flights are down as British Airways flights operated by Qatar Airways.

[LGS6753]

Curiously the flights are down as British Airways flights operated by Qatar Airways. Code share?

[PDXCWL45]

Code share?
By the looks of it yes.

[bycrewlgw]

Anyone heard when the Master plan is going to be released? Was due to be finalised in the spring so hoping it’ll be published soon.

[PDXCWL45]

Anyone heard when the Master plan is going to be released? Was due to be finalised in the spring so hoping it’ll be published soon.
There is an ACC meeting on the 17th July so maybe they'll look to release it after that.

[EastMids]

Anyone heard when the Master plan is going to be released? Was due to be finalised in the spring so hoping it’ll be published soon.

There is a press / media briefing on the new masterplan scheduled for next week - 18th if I remember correctly.

[bycrewlgw]

There is an ACC meeting on the 17th July so maybe they'll look to release it after that.

cool cheers bud

[bycrewlgw]

There is a press / media briefing on the new masterplan scheduled for next week - 18th if I remember correctly.

cheers bud :-)

[Mr A Tis]

Qatar appears not over the moon about passenger numbers from Cardiff

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qatar-airways-cardiff-airport-doha-flights-passenger-numbers-akbar-al-baker-a8450646.html

[PDXCWL45]

Qatar appears not over the moon about passenger numbers from Cardiff

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qatar-airways-cardiff-airport-doha-flights-passenger-numbers-akbar-al-baker-a8450646.html
Good advertisement for the route in a national newspaper! Especially that the prices are cheaper than other airports!

[LAX_LHR]

So, an Airline CEO comes out publicly and says a route is underperforming, and the article points out that fares are as much as half it’s UK counterparts which will in turn be affecting yield, all while the route is still being subsidised (so when it does have to stand on it s own 2 feet it will struggle more). And that’s a good thing?! Seriously?

Ill admit that I do often wear my rose tinted spectacles , but this is a whole new level.

[Welshtraveller]

Why was Vueling's flight to Barcelona cancelled this afternoon? Looks like the incoming flight arrived with no problems.

Thanks.

[PDXCWL45]

So, an Airline CEO comes out publicly and says a route is underperforming, and the article points out that fares are as much as half it’s UK counterparts which will in turn be affecting yield, all while the route is still being subsidised (so when it does have to stand on it s own 2 feet it will struggle more). And that’s a good thing?! Seriously?

Ill admit that I do often wear my rose tinted spectacles , but this is a whole new level.

He said it's not performing to expectations he didn't say it was under performing and that the cargo side was performing well. It depends what those expectations are and so what if fares are cheaper than at other UK airports? It's the yield that counts. Is the route being subsidised? The Welsh government has a marketing deal with Qatar Airways yes but no one knows what the deal entails so people are just asuming they are subsidising the route because the reality is people especially on this forum don't seem to be supportive of this route because i get the feeling in their view an airport like Cardiff shouldn't have a route like this. It's early days for the route and only time will tell how it gets on and if Cardiff loses the route then i'm sure plenty of people on here will be quite happy about it.

[PDXCWL45]

Why was Vueling's flight to Barcelona cancelled this afternoon? Looks like the incoming flight arrived with no problems.

Thanks.

It wasn't cancelled according to FR24. It departed at 14.00.

[LAX_LHR]

He said it's not performing to expectations he didn't say it was under performing

erm, is it not the same thing? not performing to expectations = under performing from the expectations set. Your arguing a technicality.

It depends what those expectations are and so what if fares are cheaper than at other UK airports? It's the yield that counts.

yes, it is yield that counts, and do you honestly think said yield wouldn’t be stellar if fares are up to 50% cheaper than other U.K. regionals?

Is the route being subsidised? The Welsh government has a marketing deal with Qatar Airways yes but no one knows what the deal entails so people are just asuming they are subsidising the route

come on, it’s being subsidised. It’s a government entity (Wales) and a government entity (Qatar) in partnership. It’s being subsidised. No routes to a lot of EU capitals, no flights to long haul hotspots like Orlando and the Caribbean’s, but there is a route to Doha. What do you thinks happening?

because the reality is people especially on this forum don't seem to be supportive of this route because i get the feeling in their view an airport like Cardiff shouldn't have a route like this.

where have I, or anyone, said this. I’m merely questioning how an article with a quote from an airline CEO saying the route isn’t meeting expectations is seen a source nothing but a good thing?

It's early days for the route and only time will tell how it gets on and if Cardiff loses the route then i'm sure plenty of people on here will be quite happy about it.

Yes that’s exactly the crux of what people are talking about, they all want to know when they can go and buy their party hats. Let’s not argue the points, let’s just put words in people’s mouths instead.

[RND20]

Maybe he went public with this as a stunt to try get a bigger subsidy from the welsh government?

[chinapattern]

He does state that freight and cargo is doing well which as we all know can be quite lucrative and help make or break a route. Funny how LAX didn’t pick up on that when he’s the first one to highlight the importance of cargo revenue when someone dare critisices a MAN route!

[PDXCWL45]

erm, is it not the same thing? not performing to expectations = under performing from the expectations set. Your arguing a technicality.



yes, it is yield that counts, and do you honestly think said yield wouldn’t be stellar if fares are up to 50% cheaper than other U.K. regionals?



come on, it’s being subsidised. It’s a government entity (Wales) and a government entity (Qatar) in partnership. It’s being subsidised. No routes to a lot of EU capitals, no flights to long haul hotspots like Orlando and the Caribbean’s, but there is a route to Doha. What do you thinks happening?



where have I, or anyone, said this. I’m merely questioning how an article with a quote from an airline CEO saying the route isn’t meeting expectations is seen a source nothing but a good thing?



Yes that’s exactly the crux of what people are talking about, they all want to know when they can go and buy their party hats. Let’s not argue the points, let’s just put words in people’s mouths instead.

A technicality? What he doesn't say is that the route isn't making a profit. For all we know it's making a profit just not as much as was expected and maybe the expectation was set too high?
As for the fares. Again we don't know the cost structure so just because a fare is low compared to another airport doesn't mean the yeild is low. Airports like Heahtrow and Manchester will have higher charges than an airport like Cardiff.
As for subsidy again you are assuming there is a subsidy. And as for European capitals Cardiff has routes to 7 if you count Edinburgh and Belfast as European capitals 5 if you don't and hopefully will gain more in the years to come. And as for lack of Orlando and Caribbean (there are flights in the winter) so what? Just because Cardiff doesn't have these then what it shouldn't have Doha?
Look back at the posts on this thread and you'll find a lot of negativity towards this airport especially considering the Doha route but people are entiltled to their opinions as it's a free country and we all have the right to free speech.

[edi_local]

come on, it’s being subsidised. It’s a government entity (Wales) and a government entity (Qatar) in partnership. It’s being subsidised. No routes to a lot of EU capitals, no flights to long haul hotspots like Orlando and the Caribbean’s, but there is a route to Doha. What do you thinks happening?

Don't see how you can seriously compare a route to Orlando or the Caribbean to Doha.

Orlando or the Caribbean would presumably be on a charter basis, in peak summer and would very much be aimed at the outbound Welsh market. Such a route would have almost no inward appeal and would not carry cargo or offer connections at either end.

DOH provides all of that, in both directions and opens CWL up to the world.

[LAX_LHR]

I notice my number one cheerleader posted. Ignore function is bliss as no doubt he is slagging me off again. I must get him off ignore and invite him for dinner some time, someone that fixated must want more and who am I to deny!

as for the other post. Connected to just 5 European capitals, and pretty much the rest of the post, I rest my case.

[PDXCWL45]

I notice my number one cheerleader posted. Ignore function is bliss as no doubt he is slagging me off again. I must get him off ignore and invite him for dinner some time, someone that fixated must want more and who am I to deny!

as for the other post. Connected to just 5 European capitals, and pretty much the rest of the post, I rest my case.

You do realise that Cardiff Airport is at 1.5 million passengers not 15 million passengers? I'd say having scheduled routes to Dublin, Madrid, Paris, Amsterdam, Rome and Berlin is half decent and you can add on Edinburgh and Belfast. Also non capitals Barcelona, Milan, Venice, Geneva, Munich and Dusseldorf, i won't include Alicante or Malaga or Faro or Verona or for 2019 Dubrovnik and Naples. A lot of routes also help to bring in tourists directly into Wales as well and yes most of them aren't daily. Cardiff may not be a 25 million passenger airport but is growing a nice European network and i'm sure will continue to add to that network.

[edi_local]

I notice my number one cheerleader posted. Ignore function is bliss as no doubt he is slagging me off again. I must get him off ignore and invite him for dinner some time, someone that fixated must want more and who am I to deny!

as for the other post. Connected to just 5 European capitals, and pretty much the rest of the post, I rest my case.

Not sure what that has to do with anything? Your case is far from rested. In fact you have confused me with that comment.

The vast majority of QRs route network is not connected to any European capitals. Is that a pre-requisite now? I have no idea what you're trying to suggest.

[LAX_LHR]

But in terms of subsidies, haven’t you just created an extension of the question and also cast doubt?

as you say, CWL handles 1.5m pax. It has a select number of scheduled routes and also some charter. Yet, here we are. We have a Qatar B787 touching down at what is, and by your own admission, a small airport (and I genuinely don’t mean it as a derogatory statement, you too have insinuated the same).

there are airports with more long haul and larger pax numbers than CWL that don’t have QR. Glasgow, Porto, Lisbon, Lyon and Düsseldorf to name a few. Now, I know ‘rights’ may be an issue in some and it’s not a clear cut case as to why those airports are not served, and I’m not saying CWL doesn’t deserve a chance at the route, but don’t you find that just a teensy bit ‘out of the ordinary?’ And let’s not forget, outside of CWL, we are talking about an airline that is blocked from serving some of its biggest markets and still sailing away just fine, so, not beyond the realms of possibility the welsh government agreed to subsidise the route.

it’s back to my original point though. How can it be considered purely good news that the airline CEO has come out and said what he has. My question had nothing to do with ‘I want the route to fail’ or ‘CWL doesn’t deserve the route’. I was genuinely intrigued how the interpretation of ‘the route hasn’t yet met expectation’ translate down into ‘good news’.

[RND20]

But in terms of subsidies, haven’t you just created an extension of the question and also cast doubt?

as you say, CWL handles 1.5m pax. It has a select number of scheduled routes and also some charter. Yet, here we are. We have a Qatar B787 touching down at what is, and by your own admission, a small airport (and I genuinely don’t mean it as a derogatory statement, you too have insinuated the same).

there are airports with more long haul and larger pax numbers than CWL that don’t have QR. Glasgow, Porto, Lisbon, Lyon and Düsseldorf to name a few. Now, I know ‘rights’ may be an issue in some and it’s not a clear cut case as to why those airports are not served, and I’m not saying CWL doesn’t deserve a chance at the route, but don’t you find that just a teensy bit ‘out of the ordinary?’ And let’s not forget, outside of CWL, we are talking about an airline that is blocked from serving some of its biggest markets and still sailing away just fine, so, not beyond the realms of possibility the welsh government agreed to subsidise the route.

it’s back to my original point though. How can it be considered purely good news that the airline CEO has come out and said what he has. My question had nothing to do with ‘I want the route to fail’ or ‘CWL doesn’t deserve the route’. I was genuinely intrigued how the interpretation of ‘the route hasn’t yet met expectation’ translate down into ‘good news’.
Theres no doubting the route is heavily subsidised. Another example would be emirates from NCL or the transatlantic services from the likes of shannon and cork in ireland, milking off government subsidies. anyone who thinks Cardiff got qatar without a government subsidy is deluded.

[PDXCWL45]

But in terms of subsidies, haven’t you just created an extension of the question and also cast doubt?

as you say, CWL handles 1.5m pax. It has a select number of scheduled routes and also some charter. Yet, here we are. We have a Qatar B787 touching down at what is, and by your own admission, a small airport (and I genuinely don’t mean it as a derogatory statement, you too have insinuated the same).

there are airports with more long haul and larger pax numbers than CWL that don’t have QR. Glasgow, Porto, Lisbon, Lyon and Düsseldorf to name a few. Now, I know ‘rights’ may be an issue in some and it’s not a clear cut case as to why those airports are not served, and I’m not saying CWL doesn’t deserve a chance at the route, but don’t you find that just a teensy bit ‘out of the ordinary?’ And let’s not forget, outside of CWL, we are talking about an airline that is blocked from serving some of its biggest markets and still sailing away just fine, so, not beyond the realms of possibility the welsh government agreed to subsidise the route.

it’s back to my original point though. How can it be considered purely good news that the airline CEO has come out and said what he has. My question had nothing to do with ‘I want the route to fail’ or ‘CWL doesn’t deserve the route’. I was genuinely intrigued how the interpretation of ‘the route hasn’t yet met expectation’ translate down into ‘good news’.

Only Qatar will know why they choose Cardiff. Is it because it was subsisided? I honestly don't know if it was or if it is. I do know there is a marketing deal but i'm not privvy to the contents of it and if i was i wouldn't be able to release it anyway. I do believe in the long run that deal will probably come out into the open.
If the route was subsidised what difference would it make? The Welsh governments job is too promote Wales, it's too help strenghten the Welsh economy and encourage inward investment into Wales and attracting Qatar Airways helps with that. Providing better access for business and tourism and cargo into Wales directly and promoting Wales in large parts of the world.
As for CWL being a small airport what difference does it make? Should these routes only go to large airports. In the end time will tell if the route will survive or not and another thing would Qatar increase to 6 weekly in April and May if the route was doing so badly?
And where has anyone said the article was good news? I said it was more advertisement for the route whether it's good or bad it's still advertisement in a national newspaper.

[LAX_LHR]

I feel like you haven’t read my post properly as you are now essentially questioning your own posts.

with that in mind, we could just keep going round in loop here and risk a ban, so, I’ll leave it there. But, I’ll reiterate again, I’m not saying the route should/will fail, and I’m not saying CWL doesn’t deserve the route, I honestly wish the route well as it’s a great asset for the region (don’t want to be thrown into the anti-CWL/QR pile).

[SWBKCB]

Theres no doubting the route is heavily subsidised. Another example would be emirates from NCL

Sorry to intrude on a private argument, but are you having a laugh? Any evidence that NCL is any different from any other EK route?? A daily 777 from NCL is no more remarkable than 2 x 380's from BHX or however many a day at MAN

[SWBKCB]

If the route was subsidised what difference would it make? The Welsh governments job is to promote Wales, it's to help strengthen the Welsh economy and encourage inward investment into Wales and attracting Qatar Airways helps with that

It's an advantage not available to other airports

[Callum Paterson]

Emirates are not subsidised out of Newcastle. I believe Qatar are "heavily" subsidised by the Welsh government.

The comments in the aforementioned article backup exactly what I heard from QR UK sales staff around a month ago. They are very pleased with all their UK routes, apart from CWL. This route is very much under the microscope and as the old saying goes... use it or lose it!

[CabinCrewe]

if they can survive elsewhere with apparent low pax loads and upgauge to bigger aircraft despite, surely CWL can grow even if just on the back of good cargo loads

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff Airports Masterplan to 2040 is being released for consultation today.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/cardiff-airport-unveiled-vision-next-14921105

[Heathrow Harry]

emirates has run at over 80% load factors out of NCL for several years without a subsidy. But they've been unable to keep a new York service....

As people say use it or lose it

[bycrewlgw]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44864963

cardiff reporting that they’ve sold 1,500 of the 1,750 seats to Doha representing 84% load.

Wonder when this is for? June maybe?

[SWBKCB]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44864963

cardiff reporting that they’ve sold 1,500 of the 1,750 seats to Doha representing 84% load.

Wonder when this is for? June maybe?

Think it's poorly worded and means seats sold for last weeks flights (rather than they said it last week)

[PDXCWL45]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44864963

cardiff reporting that they’ve sold 1,500 of the 1,750 seats to Doha representing 84% load.

Wonder when this is for? June maybe?
last week i think it said

[bycrewlgw]

last week i think it said

doh I read it as being they said last week... :-)

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff Airport's Masterplan has been launched today.
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/07/18/our-vision-for-2040/

[PDXCWL45]

Flybe have released their first phase of spring/summer 2019. I've had a quick look and at the moment Belfast City looks unchanged with the exception of no flights onsale on Saturdays so 11 weekly at the moment, Dublin is 14 weekly, Cork 2 weekly, Faro 4 weekly, Glasgow 5 weekly, Jersey 2 weekly, Milan 2 weekly, Paris 10 weekly, Rome 2 weekly so no change with them, Edinburgh has gone up to 17 weekly with extra flights on Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays. At the moment Dusseldorf, Berlin, Munich, Verona and Venice aren't onsale but this is only their first release.

[bycrewlgw]

Flybe have released their first phase of spring/summer 2019. I've had a quick look and at the moment Belfast City looks unchanged with the exception of no flights onsale on Saturdays so 11 weekly at the moment, Dublin is 14 weekly, Cork 2 weekly, Faro 4 weekly, Glasgow 5 weekly, Jersey 2 weekly, Milan 2 weekly, Paris 10 weekly, Rome 2 weekly so no change with them, Edinburgh has gone up to 17 weekly with extra flights on Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays. At the moment Dusseldorf, Berlin, Munich, Verona and Venice aren't onsale but this is only their first release.

lets see if this 4th a/c comes

[PDXCWL45]

lets see if this 4th a/c comes


At the moment with the current schedule there will be 3 E175s based. Verona and Venice have now go onsale at 2 weekly each so it's just the German routes still to come and any new routes if they are any to come. My personal opinion is IF they are going to add a 4th aircraft then it won't be announced this week because of the launch of the Masterplan.

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff is expecting it's busiest summer holiday season in a decade with 296,000 people expected to jet off on holiday over the next 6 weeks.
The top 10 most popular routes are
Palma Majorca, with TUI, Thomas Cook and Vueling
Amsterdam, with KLM
Doha, with Qatar Airways
Alicante, with TUI and Vueling
Malaga, with TUI and Vueling
Edinburgh, with Flybe
Dublin, with Flybe
Faro, with Flybe, TUI and Ryanair
Tenerife, with TUI, Thomas Cook and Ryanair
Dalaman, with TUI and Thomas Cook
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/new...ng-busiest-summer-holiday-season-in-a-decade/

[heading 125]

Emirates are not subsidised out of Newcastle. I believe Qatar are "heavily" subsidised by the Welsh government.

The comments in the aforementioned article backup exactly what I heard from QR UK sales staff around a month ago. They are very pleased with all their UK routes, apart from CWL. This route is very much under the microscope and as the old saying goes... use it or lose it!

thats really strange as a friend of my Uncles best friend son's said that all the world wide QR are extremely happy with how Cardiff is performing. My source might be more accurate than yours. Come on guys or girls grow up. I don't think anyone in the industry really reads pprune any more.

[PDXCWL45]

Well according to the airport the route is now in the top 3 of most popular routes and if they got that from July figures so far and it's ranked above Alicante and Malaga then the route may well see more than 10,000 passengers on it in July but we'll not know for certain until the July CAA stats come out.

[CabinCrewe]

with an almost daily widebody flooding with seats it would not be difficult even half full to trump low cost to Benidorm.
Airport promo holiday announcements are just that, promos and may bear no resemblemce to formal numbers
As you say, wait for CAA stats. If not going good guns high summer when can it.

[Midland Alpha9]

A technicality? What he doesn't say is that the route isn't making a profit. For all we know it's making a profit just not as much as was expected and maybe the expectation was set too high?
As for the fares. Again we don't know the cost structure so just because a fare is low compared to another airport doesn't mean the yeild is low. Airports like Heahtrow and Manchester will have higher charges than an airport like Cardiff.
As for subsidy again you are assuming there is a subsidy. And as for European capitals Cardiff has routes to 7 if you count Edinburgh and Belfast as European capitals 5 if you don't and hopefully will gain more in the years to come. And as for lack of Orlando and Caribbean (there are flights in the winter) so what? Just because Cardiff doesn't have these then what it shouldn't have Doha?
Look back at the posts on this thread and you'll find a lot of negativity towards this airport especially considering the Doha route but people are entiltled to their opinions as it's a free country and we all have the right to free speech.
One thing is for certain the route currently will not even be making a contribution let alone a profit and nor is it expected. The normal measurement for route development are year 1 loss, year 2 break even and year 3 contribution /profit.
I don't know why people are banging on about subsidies all airports in the UK and Europe, (with the exception of LHR) dish out ' marketing incentives ' for start up routes no different here in Cardiff.
This is the time to grab the headlines as it is Farnborough week and His Excellency will smartly use any opportunity! CWL is an absolute pleasure to fly out of compared to the 'Cattle Market 'along the M4, spinning 30 times around the London TMA before touchdown, Heaven https://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

[supermarine]

Emirates are not subsidised out of Newcastle. I believe Qatar are "heavily" subsidised by the Welsh government.

The comments in the aforementioned article backup exactly what I heard from QR UK sales staff around a month ago. They are very pleased with all their UK routes, apart from CWL. This route is very much under the microscope and as the old saying goes... use it or lose it!

are you appearing in the Edinburgh Festival , you seem like a right comedian?

[PDXCWL45]

Emirates are not subsidised out of Newcastle. I believe Qatar are "heavily" subsidised by the Welsh government.

The comments in the aforementioned article backup exactly what I heard from QR UK sales staff around a month ago. They are very pleased with all their UK routes, apart from CWL. This route is very much under the microscope and as the old saying goes... use it or lose it!
If the route is heavily subsidised as you believe then why would the route be under a microscope from Qatar?

[Callum Paterson]

Quite clearly the Cardiff fanboys are upset that their only long haul route is failing so badly, but to personally attack people over a bloody air route is simply pathetic. Go outside and get a life. Sad, sad individuals.

Some on here will need to be put on suicide watch when this route gets dropped.

[PDXCWL45]

Quite clearly the Cardiff fanboys are upset that their only long haul route is failing so badly, but to personally attack people over a bloody air route is simply pathetic. Go outside and get a life. Sad, sad individuals.

Some on here will need to be put on suicide watch when this route gets dropped.
Yet the only time certain people post on here is to have a go at it. Its odd how very few seem to comment about other news like the Masterplan!
It's only been in operation for 3 months yet already people are predicting doom and gloom! And this 'fanboy' would be disappointed yes but not that disappointed!

[bycrewlgw]

Quite clearly the Cardiff fanboys are upset that their only long haul route is failing so badly, but to personally attack people over a bloody air route is simply pathetic. Go outside and get a life. Sad, sad individuals.

Some on here will need to be put on suicide watch when this route gets dropped.

lol. Pot and kettle spring to mind...

[Centre cities]

lol. Pot and kettle spring to mind...

With the Welsh Government apparently paying Qatar 1 million per year for the first 2 years (extendable) I think it is safe for a bit.

Centre cities

[PDXCWL45]

With the Welsh Government apparently paying Qatar 1 million per year for the first 2 years (extendable) I think it is safe for a bit.

Centre cities
To advertise Wales as a destination throughout their network.

[Sean North]

With the Welsh Government apparently paying Qatar 1 million per year for the first 2 years (extendable) I think it is safe for a bit.

Centre cities

Where did you get this information from? I suspected a subsidy, not that much by any means though.

[supermarine]

On BBC Wales website, it works out at just over £5.00 per seat inbound and outbound. If the Welsh Assembly are happy to fund this, then I am happy to carry on paying my taxes , not that I have any choice.

[inOban]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44810051

The dosh is match funding between the Welsh government and Qatar to promote Wales. Renewable for a further year.

Qatar are continuing to move into secondary airports. I see that they are planning on Gothenburg.

[edi_local]

The apparent £1 Million per year, out of the Welsh budget is hardly a lot if it is promoting Wales on the world stage. The money made from the new tourists flying directly to Wales will surely make it extremely worthwhile. Why the hostility? Wales has a global connection, a scheduled, year round, long haul route. Some folk need to suck it up. QR are in it for the long term. They will at least be there until the other side of Qatar 2022. The route will mop up the over spill from English routes during that world cup. If Wales qualify then even better news. By that time the route will be established and holding its own.

[VickersVicount]

EDI has always been hit and miss with loads sometimes down to low 60s loads at the outset and has still blundered on with QR chucking everything at it (special specific discount offers, varying frequency, and more recently A350 advertising) so CWL might be no different. Its a good product and with OW opportunities so no reason it cant be built on.
The EDI 'fanboys' are no better in this respect.

[PDXCWL45]

If anyone is interested this is a link to a PDF brochure of the airports Masterplan
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/uploads/Masterplan%20brochure.pdf

[PDXCWL45]

So far this is what Flybe have released in Phase 1 of their summer 2019 compared to 2018
Dublin 15 weekly 2018, 14 weekly for 2019 -1 weekly flight there is a slot for a 15th flight on Fridays
Edniburgh 13 weekly 2018, 17 weekly for 2019 +4 weekly flights
Belfast City 11 weekly 2018, 11 weekly for 2019 no change
Paris CDG 10 weekly 2018, 10 weekly for 2019 no change
Faro 5 weekly 2018, 4 weekly for 2019 -1 weekly flight plus the aircraft type changes from all E195 to all E175
Glasgow 4 weekly 2018, 5 weekly for 2019 +1 weekly flight
Jersey 4 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 -2 weekly flights
Cork 2 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 no change
Milan 3 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 -1 weekly flight
Munich 2 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 no change
Rome FCO 2 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 no change
Venice 2 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 no change
Verona 2 weekly 2018, 2 weekly for 2019 no change but will only operate 1 weekly in April
Berlin 2 weekly 2018, not onsale for 2019 though there is room for it
Dusseldorf 1 weekly 2018, not onsale 2019 though there is room for it
Geneva 1 weekly just for April in 2019
Chambery 1 weekly just for April 2019
For 2018 there is a total of 78 weekly flights onsale, for 2019 so far we have 75 weekly flights onsale after the phase 1 release with aircraft changing from 1 E195 and 2 E175s to 3 E175s.

[PDXCWL45]

KLM will go down to 2 daily flights Monday to Saturday and 1 flight on a Sunday between 3rd September and 26th October with no evening flight. I believe it's due to runway works at Schipol?

[PDXCWL45]

CAA stats for June 2018
181,292 people used the airport in June down 2% the rolling year was 1,507,827 up 6.7%
Air transport movements were 1707 down 5.4%.
The - will be down to the Champions league final.
And the Doha route saw 4491 passengers use it in June.

[CabinCrewe]

based on the number of flights in June, what would be the estimated load factor for CWL-DOH?

[flyerboy]

They had 52 flights in June so the average was 86

[Letsflycwl]

Good to note the significant increase with passenger figures since for this second month of operation and with it just being start of the main summer season these are hopefully bound to increase further.

[PDXCWL45]

Also 158 tonnes of freight went through the airport as well.
Another thing to note is Amsterdam grew 6% to over 12,000 passengers in June.

[caaardiff]

They had 52 flights in June so the average was 86
There were only 4 days where the route didn't operate in June? Is that right?

[PDXCWL45]

There were only 4 days where the route didn't operate in June? Is that right?
Yes that's correct.

[bycrewlgw]

And the Doha route saw 4491 passengers use it in June.

no bad considering second month of operation. BHX has 7186 so deffo moving in right direction

[PDXCWL45]

Disappointing' foreign tourist visits despite £5m campaign.

"According to Mr Calder Wales is standing still as a holiday destination compared to London and Scotland despite a £5 million campaign with visitor spending dropping by 17%.
Mr Calder said the lack of flights from major countries meant Wales was regarded as "an add on" to a trip to England rather than a destination in its own right".
To be fair to him he's probably right as Wales doesn't have the geographical position or the same sort of profile that Scotland has nor does it have the major airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet flying into it and thus promoting it as a destination.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45060541

[Rutan16]

Mr Calder master of statements of the obvious !

However rather misses the fact that a significant number of overseas visitors drive and drag their home behind them especially from the low countries and quite few fly also in via Manchester.

The Chinese especially then go to Chester and day trip the coast and mountains then on to York and Edinburgh and off home .

Wales major castles are primarily in the North West whilst the far south west is exceptionally picturesque it’s difficult enough to get to for much of our own domestic market !

[VickersVicount]

no bad considering second month of operation. BHX has 7186 so deffo moving in right direction

And if you cant get bums on seats in summer, when can you...
Interesting to see if they can get sustained month on month increases. A colleague flew on a half full QR A350 (albeit from EDI) and said it was a great product for a one stop from Melbourne.

[PDXCWL45]

Mr Calder master of statements of the obvious !

However rather misses the fact that a significant number of overseas visitors drive and drag their home behind them especially from the low countries and quite few fly also in via Manchester.

The Chinese especially then go to Chester and day trip the coast and mountains then on to York and Edinburgh and off home .

Wales major castles are primarily in the North West whilst the far south west is exceptionally picturesque it’s difficult enough to get to for much of our own domestic market !





The major foreign markets that need developing is Europe especially the Med and Germany to encourage people to fly directly into Wales and holiday in the whole country and spend their money here!
Castle wise Wales is covered with them, big and little as a result of the Norman conquest.
As for South West Wales it's not that bad to get to, a 2 hour drive from Cardiff and there are plenty of regular train services.

[bycrewlgw]

And if you cant get bums on seats in summer, when can you...
Interesting to see if they can get sustained month on month increases. A colleague flew on a half full QR A350 (albeit from EDI) and said it was a great product for a one stop from Melbourne.


have flown them to and from Australia many times. They have a great product in both biz and economy. DOH is a great airport to transfer through too. Will avoid DXB at all costs

[VickersVicount]

Do we know the comparitive load factors specifically for QR on their UK routes for June now including the CWL service?

[PDXCWL45]

Do we know the comparitive load factors specifically for QR on their UK routes for June now including the CWL service?

BHX 47%
Edinburgh 74%
Manchester 64%
Cardiff 34%
That's of seats sold for the month of June.

[PDXCWL45]

New Meet and Greet car park service has been launched.
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/08/13/cardiff-airport-launches-new-meet-and-greet-service/

[shamrock7seal]

34% load factor on the Doha service is definitely not 'moving in the right direction' to quote someone in an earlier post.

This route better start working or it will be gone quicker than you realise.

Newcastles Dubai service was around 70% when it first launched.

[PDXCWL45]

34% load factor on the Doha service is definitely not 'moving in the right direction' to quote someone in an earlier post.

This route better start working or it will be gone quicker than you realise.

Newcastles Dubai service was around 70% when it first launched.
Well I'd have thought it has 2 year's at least considering the marketing deal in place. If what I've heard is correct then July should be a lot better.

[bycrewlgw]

34% load factor on the Doha service is definitely not 'moving in the right direction' to quote someone in an earlier post.

This route better start working or it will be gone quicker than you realise.

Newcastles Dubai service was around 70% when it first launched.

So being down 8% is a better direction in your opinion then given that being up 8% is definitely not moving in the right direction?

[edi_local]

34% load factor on the Doha service is definitely not 'moving in the right direction' to quote someone in an earlier post.

This route better start working or it will be gone quicker than you realise.

Newcastles Dubai service was around 70% when it first launched.

Is it your decision? :confused:

It'll stay for ages yet, certainly until the other side of Qatar 2022, so better get used to the fact that CWL has a ME link. You have no idea of the inbound loads, the split in the cabin, the cargo loads or any corporate contracts the route may be sustaining.

Look at some of the cities QR are going to be flying to and think to yourself if they really care about things like load factors. TLL, GOT, LUX, AGP, JMK? Hardly massive inbound markets on the global scale and very small populations (relative to other QR cities) for outbound too.Not traditionally places which would have a ME link for sure. It's about promoting Qatar for the upcoming world cup and the fact it can stand up against the blockade too.

[shamrock7seal]

Let's hope the route starts to cover its direct operating costs for a start

[heading 125]

Let's hope the route starts to cover its direct operating costs for a start

The QR flight is making money with the cargo on board only, technically it doesn't need any passengers to make a profit on the route. July and August figures for the pax are doing very well indeed. Inbound pax are good as well and bringing in a variety of foreign tourists in particular Japanese. So the flight is starting to do what the Welsh Assembly wanted more tourists to Wales. 👍 Cardiff City centre seems to have a bigger mix of foreign tourists. So that can only be good for Wales finances. I am not a fan of the Welsh Assembly, but what they have done with Cardiff Airport seems to be working well at the moment.

[ATNotts]

The QR flight is making money with the cargo on board only, technically it doesn't need any passengers to make a profit on the route.

I don't know where you got this assertion from!! Passenger aircraft should make money from the passengers; the cargo should add to that profit. It has always been thus, air cargo rarely makes money as a stand alone business for passenger carriers, if it did them BA would have a fleet of their own cargo aircraft, which they don't.

And before anyone mentions UPS and FedEx; they are integrators not traditional cargo airlines.

[shamrock7seal]

Agreed. Belly hold cargo usually brings in around 5-20% max of total revenue for a flight like this. 5-10% for outliers (like BHX) and 15-20% for major cities (like LHR)

[Letsflycwl]

Are Flybe starting CWL-PMI flights as of April 2019? Heard a few rumours and it’s been added onto Wiki (I know that’s not gospel) but someone must know if this rumour is true.

[PDXCWL45]

Are Flybe starting CWL-PMI flights as of April 2019? Heard a few rumours and it’s been added onto Wiki (I know that’s not gospel) but someone must know if this rumour is true.

That's interesting. Hopefully it'll be part of an expansion and not replace either Berlin or Dusselsdorf or both!

[FRatSTN]

someone must know if this rumour is true.

I doubt anyone with any meaningful information would be shouting it from the rooftops if it were. These things tend to be confidential until any public announcement.

[caaardiff]

I doubt anyone with any meaningful information would be shouting it from the rooftops if it were. These things tend to be confidential until any public announcement.
Agreed. And they certainly wouldn't be taking the time to update Wikipedia

[Letsflycwl]

Yeah agree with you both there but who ever bumped the information into Wiki was very date specific for April next year, wait and see I guess

[PDXCWL45]

Flew with Iberia Express to Madrid yesterday from Cardiff. Great flight and great route that CWL has attracted! Also by my estimate at least half the passengers of about 160 were Spanish and at time's it felt like it was a domestic flight in Spain! It's great that the route is attracting Spanish tourists into Wales!

[SWBKCB]

What's the basis for stating they werre tourists?

[PDXCWL45]

What's the basis for stating they werre tourists?
Just my general impression from what i observed on the flight.

[ATNotts]

What's the basis for stating they werre tourists?

I believe that in the eyes of tourism boards every visitor to anywhere who overnights is categorised as a "tourist" whether they're traveling for business or pleasure!

To be honest, if 50% of the load were Spanish that in itself is a result for Cardiff and greater South Wales in general.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The QR flight is making money with the cargo on board only, technically it doesn't need any passengers to make a profit on the route.
Cargo is merely additional revenue, it’s always necessary in this market to carry good passenger loads *ESPECIALLY* down the pointy end. Look no further than Etihad at EDI to see what happens next if you don’t.

[CabinCrewe]

How do we **KNOW** the ***POINTY*** end of EY EDI wasnt propping up the rest?

[edi_local]

Cargo is merely additional revenue, it’s always necessary in this market to carry good passenger loads *ESPECIALLY* down the pointy end. Look no further than Etihad at EDI to see what happens next if you don’t.


EY are retreating from a few places on their network. Plus, I don't think it's coincidence that EK start up the very next day after EY bow out. Mysterious forces at play with that one, for sure. :}

[PDXCWL45]

Cargo is merely additional revenue, it’s always necessary in this market to carry good passenger loads *ESPECIALLY* down the pointy end. Look no further than Etihad at EDI to see what happens next if you don’t.
It all helps! Reality is Qatar will be the only one's who know the figures!

[CWLSupporter]

What’s with the Atlas Air flight to Chicago (ORD) that’s showing on the airport departure board for 28/05/2018 at 02:00?

Atlas Air are primarily a cargo airline but they do also operate some charter / adhoc flights.

Any have any ideas ?


no it was Taylor Swift, attending the Swansea Big weekend.

[PDXCWL45]

Just had a quick look at Qatar Airways website and it looks like for Summer 2019 they will go daily from 23rd May. Also Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays in July the prices are higher than the weekday prices.

[canberra97]

Just had a quick look at Qatar Airways website and it looks like for Summer 2019 they will go daily from 23rd May. Also Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays in July the prices are higher than the weekday prices.

Great news if it actually happens especially considering how Qatar change their schedules on a regular basis but concerning the prices, your notice that the majority of fares are higher on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays on most airlines not just Qatar with Tuesdays generally being the cheapest option. I always tend to fly on a Tuesday or Wednesday with the majority of the flights that I take due to the fact that those two days are usually the cheapest option.

[PDXCWL45]

So far this year starting in January 2018 the airport has seen 1 million passengers using it a 7% increase on this time last year. July 2018 saw a 12% growth on 2017 which equates to an extra 20,000 passengers for the month compared to July 2017 and the rolling year saw 8% growth. If the airport keeps the growth up then the year should end over the 1.6 million passenger mark.
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/08/21/busy-year-sees-cardiff-airport-hit-1-million-passengers-in-august/

[PDXCWL45]

CAA Stats July 2018

The airport saw 192,026 passengers use the airport up 11.9% on 2017.

The rolling year was 1,528,248 up 7.5% on 2017.

Atms were 1784 up 4.3% with the rolling year at 16,925 up 0.1%.
Doha saw 10,160 passengers use the route in July so a big jump there.
And Amsterdam saw 13,060 passengers use the route in July use the route a growth of 14%!

[SWBKCB]

July stats? - is this what was supplied to the CAA rather than published?

[shamrock7seal]

I couldn't see any official release from CAA on their website so is this inside info?

If Doha stats are correct then that is a fantastic result. When does/did the route go daily? Is that 70%+ load factor?

[caaardiff]

Stats are taken from the CAA website.

As a comparison;
May - 2900
Jun - 4491
Jul - 10160 (over double growth of June)

July
EDI - 15122
BHX - 12256
CWL - 10160

The route is certainly improving and hopefully it will sustain the figures over the quieter months. I suspect August will see even better results than July.

[PDXCWL45]

I couldn't see any official release from CAA on their website so is this inside info?

If Doha stats are correct then that is a fantastic result. When does/did the route go daily? Is that 70%+ load factor?
From the CAA website. Route went daily in June. Average load of 163 65% LF
https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis/UK-aviation-market/Airports/Datasets/UK-Airport-data/Airport-data-2018-07/

[SWBKCB]

From the CAA website. Route went daily in June. Average load of 163 65% LF
https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis/UK-aviation-market/Airports/Datasets/UK-Airport-data/Airport-data-2018-07/

Cheers - July isn't showing on the CAA website for me, although I can get there by following your link!

[PDXCWL45]

Top 10 routes for July 2018
1. Palma de Mallorca 19,512
2. Amsterdam 13,060
3. Alicante 10,603
4. Malaga 10,389
5. Doha 10,060
6. Dublin 9659
7. Edinburgh 9475
8. Faro 8558
9. Paris CDG 8131
10. Dalaman 7414
CAA Stats July 2018 Domestic
Aberdeen 773 +2%
Anglesey 1496 +17%
Belfast City TBA
Edinburgh 9475 +6%
Glasgow 2621 +15%
Guernsey 629 -8%
Jersey 2187 +17%
Newcastle 1219 +6%
CAA Stats July 2018 European and International
Larnaca 3475
Paphos 1474 +5%
Paris CDG 8131 +47%
Tarbes-Lourdes 164 -27%
Berlin TXL 1430 -31%
Braunschweig 45
Dusseldorf 470 16%
Munich 1491 -17%
Corfu 1496 +2%
Heraklion 1859 +28%
Kefallinia 1839 +27%
Kos 1229 -26%
Rhodes 2661 -2%
Zakinthos 4846 -2%
Cork 1496 -11%
Dublin 9659 +9%
Milan MXP 2735 -16%
Rome FCO 1678 -11%
Venice 1393
Verona 1201 -26%
Amsterdam 13,060 +14%
Faro 8558 +11%
Alicante 10,603 +2%
Barcelona 3559 -20%
Ibiza 6029 -8%
Madrid 2340 +21%
Mahon 3093 -31%
Malaga 10,389 +4%
Palma de Mallorca 19,512 -1%
Reus 3266 +15%
Arrecife 4436 -1%
Las Palmas 1466 -32%
Tenerife South 7269 +3%
Antalya 2723
Dalaman 7414 +62%
Burgas 4895 -2%
Doha 10,060

[shamrock7seal]

Interesting and considering the great weather in July the performance is good. Some holiday routes showing declines?

[SWBKCB]

Interesting mix of numbers, particularly on the city routes - large increases on CDG and AMS, but TXL, MUC, FCO, MXP all down? Admittedly smallish numbers so percentage changes can be deceptive.

[PDXCWL45]

Interesting mix of numbers, particularly on the city routes - large increases on CDG and AMS, but TXL, MUC, FCO, MXP all down? Admittedly smallish numbers so percentage changes can be deceptive.
CDG went from 7 weekly to 10 weekly. AMS had a seat increase due to the Fokkers leaving. TXL and MUC went from 3 weekly to 2 weekly each so they could fit in Venice and MXP lost a weekly flight so they could add one to Faro. Verona i believe has lost some pax to Venice and Rome was 2 E195 flights but is now 1 E195 and 1 E175 and BCN was 4 weekly last year it's now 3 weekly.

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff Airport will hold Public Enagagement Events about it's Masterplan on the 6th September at the Cardiff Story Museum just by The Hayes in Cardiff City Centre and on the 7th September at Barry Library.
https://www.facebook.com/events/269909186981194/
https://www.facebook.com/events/703646399984306/

[VickersVicount]

QR DOH not all that bad. EDI loads had been as low as that way after this stage for CWL so promising.

[Letsflycwl]

Regarding Flybe, if they do add PMI for next summer hopefully that’ll lead to the 4th aircraft and if that “does” happen let’s hope for some additional destinations to follow.

[PDXCWL45]

Looks like the Thomas Cook A320 has gone tech as a Privilege 767 300er has flown in from Madrid and is down to operate today's Rhodes flight which should've departed at 13.30 the airport website has it down for a 21.15 departure but according to FR24 hasn't departed yet.

[Letsflycwl]

Does anyone have any idea on what the “exciting announcement” is that had been posted on Twitter for tomorrow ?

I hope it is another new route/routes or airline. Let’s start the guessing and wishes.....

Thomas Cook year round?
4th Flybe aircraft?
New Flybe routes?
New Ryanair destination or destinations?
Norwegian?
Transatlantic destination?
Jet 2?

It will most probably not even be airline or route related but at least we can dream.....

[PDXCWL45]

Does anyone have any idea on what the “exciting announcement” is that had been posted on Twitter for tomorrow ?

I hope it is another new route/routes or airline. Let’s start the guessing and wishes.....

Thomas Cook year round?
4th Flybe aircraft?
New Ryanair destination or destinations?
Transatlantic destination?
Jet 2?

It will most probably not even be airline or route related but at least we can dream.....
Best guess Flybe 4th based aircraft. Can't see it being anything to do with Jet2.
I would love it though if Ryanair launched a few new routes though or a base!

[Letsflycwl]

Best guess Flybe 4th based aircraft. Can't see it being anything to do with Jet2.
I would love it though if Ryanair launched a few new routes though or a base!

Yeah I’m swaying more towards an additional Flybe aircraft for next year and that will tie in with the PMI rumours for Flybe too with possible new destinations in the pipeline - regional France please like BOD or EGC.

Ryanair quite possible with another destination or two - just hope it is something exciting as advertised and nothing naff about planting a tree or something zzzz like that

[PDXCWL45]

A possible 5th route for Vueling?

[Letsflycwl]

A possible 5th route for Vueling?

But would that be classed as “exciting”? Of course it be great if Vueling also expand and add another desitination - MJV used to be popular with BMI baby.

It would be amazing if it was another long haul route....YYZ or NYC too, so many opportunities.

Who knows until this “exciting announcement” is announced tomorrow....if it is route/airline related or not.

[PDXCWL45]

But would that be classed as “exciting”? Of course it be great if Vueling also expand and add another desitination - MJV used to be popular with BMI baby.

It would be amazing if it was another long haul route....YYZ or NYC too, so many opportunities.

Who knows until this “exciting announcement” is announced tomorrow....if it is route/airline related or not.
It could be in the airport PR world!
NYC would be exciting!

[Letsflycwl]

It could be in the airport PR world!
NYC would be exciting!

jetBlue or Norwegian......mmmmm interesting (or more like wishful thinking)

[PDXCWL45]

jetBlue or Norwegian......mmmmm interesting (or more like wishful thinking)
Primera? A321neo?

[Letsflycwl]

Primera? A321neo?


Ooh yeah I forgot about Primera and that previous announcement that they were looking westwards from London.....

[PDXCWL45]

Ooh yeah I forgot about Primera and that previous announcement that they were looking westwards from London.....
Well I hope this is not it!

https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/09/10/cardiff-airport-becomes-newest-partner-of-cardiff-and-vale-credit-union/

[mathers_wales_uk]

I been told that clue is in the image.

my guess

1. Child wearing Purple, crowns in the background = Flybe returns London City
2. Child Wearing Purple = Generic Flybe announcement
3. Child and load of crowns in the background = Disney Princess - Florida

[bycrewlgw]

I been told that clue is in the image.

my guess

1. Child wearing Purple, crowns in the background = Flybe returns London City
2. Child Wearing Purple = Generic Flybe announcement
3. Child and load of crowns in the background = Disney Princess - Florida

flybe launching the domestic routes that the welsh gov want? Aren’t they going to be PSO routes? Maybe between Flybe and the T3 J41 they could make them work?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44237823

guess we will have to wait until later! :-)

[Letsflycwl]

Maybe wishful and hopeful thinking but given today’s date of 11/09 or as the Americans say 9/11 could it be New York ? Or is that bad timing and taste announcement wise “IF” it was....

I’m still banking on the 4th Flybe aircraft and as posted previously it could even be the new PSO destinations eye balled by the Government.

[PDXCWL45]

Maybe wishful and hopeful thinking but given today’s date of 11/09 or as the Americans say 9/11 could it be New York ? Or is that bad timing announcement wise “IF” it was....

I’m still banking on the 4th Flybe aircraft and as posted previously it could even be the new PSO destinations eye balled by the Government.
I don't see it being a PSO as i don't see what would qualify.
As for the US a direct flight to New York would give Carwyn Jones a nice bit of PR before he leaves.

[fanrailuk]

Ryanair to launch flights to Malta (Luqa)

Twice a week Wed & Sun

Starts 3rd April

[Letsflycwl]

Good to see Ryanair adding another destination from CWL and great to see MLA back on the departure boards too.....that was always a popular route when we had Air Malta.

Being a bit greedy but would have been nice to have had more than 1 new route especially as EXT got 3 but it’s all good news indeed.

Lets hope there are more news to come with Flybe and others now

[PDXCWL45]

Good to see Ryanair adding another destination from CWL and great to see MLA back on the departure boards too.....that was always a popular route when we had Air Malta.

Being a bit greedy but would have been nice to have had more than 1 new route especially as EXT got 3 but it’s all good news indeed.

Lets hope there are more news to come with Flybe and others now
Yeah I'm kind of left underwhelmed. Having Malta back is great but I'm kind of thinking why not more? Fingers crossed for the rumoured 4th based aircraft!

[Letsflycwl]

Yeah I'm kind of left underwhelmed. Having Malta back is great but I'm kind of thinking why not more? Fingers crossed for the rumoured 4th based aircraft!

The rumours are of Flybe operating a PMI route, which if is the case then I’d imagine it to be 2-4 times a week peak season and a 4th aircraft would tie in nicely with their schedule and the possibility of some others being added for aircraft maximum use.

[bycrewlgw]

Yeah I'm kind of left underwhelmed. Having Malta back is great but I'm kind of thinking why not more? Fingers crossed for the rumoured 4th based aircraft!

cardiff needs all the routes it can get. Sustainable expansion is better than having loads that people don’t use and airlines pull out. The fact that another airline is expanding at CWL is great news.

[Letsflycwl]

cardiff needs all the routes it can get. Sustainable expansion is better than having loads that people don’t use and airlines pull out. The fact that another airline is expanding at CWL is great news.


I think they were just stating that EXT got 3 Ryanair flights and CWL 1, not slating Ryanair at all and it’s all good news regardless for CWL and South Wales as a whole and obviously they’ve done their research as MLA had great loads with Air Malta.

Ryanair have done a clever return to CWL to TFS, FAO and now MLA and let’s hope this new relationship with CWL continues to grow

[PDXCWL45]

cardiff needs all the routes it can get. Sustainable expansion is better than having loads that people don’t use and airlines pull out. The fact that another airline is expanding at CWL is great news.

Of course it's great news that Malta is back and that it is Ryanair that are operating that but if the airport is serious about getting above 2 million passengers again and if Ryanair is serious about Cardiff then more will be required.
If nothing changes then next year Ryanair will operate 3 routes and 5 weekly flights to Cardiff in the summer. The airport will need more than that so adding 2 or 3 routes from Europe's biggest airline coming to probably 4 to 6 extra weekly flights isn't putting over capacity at an airport like Cardiff considering the leakage out of it's area.

[bycrewlgw]

Of course it's great news that Malta is back and that it is Ryanair that are operating that but if the airport is serious about getting above 2 million passengers again and if Ryanair is serious about Cardiff then more will be required.
If nothing changes then next year Ryanair will operate 3 routes and 5 weekly flights to Cardiff in the summer. The airport will need more than that so adding 2 or 3 routes from Europe's biggest airline coming to probably 4 to 6 extra weekly flights isn't putting over capacity at an airport like Cardiff considering the leakage out of it's area.

oh no I agree and have no doubt that the airport is serious. The way they have turned the airport around since the takeover has been great and just goes to show that the previous owners weren’t interested.

I know its been spoken about to death but brexit will play a part in airline’s decisions for next year so having a further 21000 seats available from one airline isn’t bad. Coupled up with the 100,000 extra from TUI and the increases from TCX for starting earlier in the season and rumours of a 4th based BE Unit is a great boost towards the 2m mark. What are the predictions for what CWL should finish on this year? 1.5m? 1.6m?

I know that we all have wishlists for the destinations we would like to see from airlines and I’m sure FR have looked at many potential routes from places like cardiff and will continue to do so. The people of wales and Malta now need to use this route to show that further routes can be viable. The market is there and providing they can price it right to make it cheaper flying from Cardiff than driving to BRS or BHX then people I’m sure will use them.

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff should be around the 1.6 million mark this year and the airports objective is 2 million passengers by 2021.
Hopefully by then the Ryanair network at the airport will be big enough to see at least a daily movement from them!
The airport is growing well and going in the right direction and it'll be interesting to see if any new airlines turn up or return in the future!

[PDXCWL45]

202,600 passengers used the airport in August up 11% on last year the highest month in a decade.
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/09/14/cardiff-airport-welcomes-busiest-summer-month-in-a-decade/

[Sean North]

Any update on the PSO routes? Were they approved?

I'm hoping for a flight to Heathrow.

[PDXCWL45]

Any update on the PSO routes? Were they approved?

I'm hoping for a flight to Heathrow.

Nope no update but i seriously doubt anything new PSOs will start from CWL.

So although they aren't onsale yet it looks like Ryanair has started to load up Faro and Tenerife, the new route Malta is onsale.
Faro is 2 weekly Monday and Friday the same as this year.
Monday FAO-CWL 08.45-11.25 CWL-FAO 11.50-14.30
Friday FAO-CWL 16.20-19.00 CWL-FAO 19.25-22.05
Tenerife South is 1 weekly Thursday the same as this year.
TFS-CWL 14.20-18.15 CWL-TFS 18.40-22.45
Malta is 2 weekly Wednesday and Sunday
MLA-CWL 07.00-09.25 CWL-MLA 09.50-14.15

That gives Cardiff 5 weekly flights from Ryanair +2 on 2018 and the only days there will not be a Ryanair flight is Tuesdays and Saturdays.
I would love to think there maybe more too come but i won't hold my breath.

[PDXCWL45]

Any update on the PSO routes? Were they approved?

I'm hoping for a flight to Heathrow.
The Welsh government has applied for the previously mentioned PSO routes with Manchester top of the list.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/new-cardiff-manchester-air-route-15164040

[Letsflycwl]

The Welsh government has applied for the previously mentioned PSO routes with Manchester top of the list.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/new-cardiff-manchester-air-route-15164040

Is it just MAN or have they applied for all of them do you know ?

It will be interesting to see what carrier will operate the routes but expect Flybe would do MAN to tie in with their hub there.

[PDXCWL45]

Is it just MAN or have they applied for all of them do you know ?

It will be interesting to see what carrier will operate the routes but expect Flybe would do MAN to tie in with their hub there.
They've applied for all of them.

[daz211]

The welsh government seem to have forgotten about Anglesey / VLY not only does the Cardiff route need a larger aircraft there should be a PSO to London and maybe Scotland.

[PDXCWL45]

The welsh government seem to have forgotten about Anglesey / VLY not only does the Cardiff route need a larger aircraft there should be a PSO to London and maybe Scotland.
The problem there is the terminal. They did apply to be increase capacity on the VLY route but the CAA and Department of transport said no.

[daz211]

I’m aware of the No destination on the Cardiff route but this should have been appealed as the demand is there just the aircraft isn’t. The terminal could cope with double the passengers on the Cardiff aircraft.
But London should be a given, I don’t see why investment would be a problem the owners and investors in the new power plant would probably pay for most of the cost of a larger terminal building.

[Letsflycwl]

Yeah I agree, London should surely work as a PSO route as it is with Flybe NQY-LGW, Loganair DND-STN and Flybmi LDY-STN.

After a lot of turmoil and worry with Highland Airways, Manx2, Links Air and Citywing it is good to see the Eastern/Flybe franchised J41 doubt a good service at long last, much better suited aircraft than the old J31 and D28 and more passenger appealing too.

Any idea as to when we will learn is these PSO routes have been successful ?

I wonder if Flybe would look at LGW as they currently operate there with a PSO route from NQY

[MerchantVenturer]

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/c20173712-guidelines-pso.pdf

In the absence of case law from the European Court of Justice, the European Commission issued Interpretative Guidelines last year in respect of PSOs - see above link. They make it clear that future Court of Justice decisions might overturn some of the guidelines.

Of course, it’s not just a case of a government deciding that route A-B would be a good one for a PSO. There have to be reasons that satisfy the legislation and the interpretation.

As regards Cardiff-London, on the face it rail connectivity, soon to be improved even more with electrification, would make an air PSO extremely unlikely. The rail journey is under three hours, well under in fact, and it’s probable that the half-hourly frequency would not satisfy the principle for an air PSO.

Below are the relevant EC interpretations on other transport, particularly rail.

38. PSOs should only be imposed insofar as other transport modes cannot meet the transport needs of the region concerned. Account should be taken mainly of services offered by train, ferry and coach operators. The adequacy of the services should be assessed, in particular, with regard to their frequency, journey times, departure times and to possible connections to other important destinations, in particular long-haul travel options. The possibilities of individual (car) transport should also be explored, having regard in particular to the journey times by road.

39. Particular consideration should be given to train services that serve the envisaged route with a travel time of less than three hours. This refers to both high-speed train services and other train services. Where such train services provide sufficient frequencies for the mobility needs of the concerned region, PSOs should in principle not be imposed on air services. Exceptionally, such PSOs could be considered however, in particular if the train services do not allow adequate connections to medium- and long-haul air services (e.g. inadequate connection between the train station in the region concerned and the airport offering medium- and long-haul services or absence of alternative travel options to connect to the long-haul destinations, including indirect flight options). The assessment needs to be carried out on a case-by case basis.

The UK government seems anxious to be sure that this is not simply a back-door method of axing APD on the routes in question. There is clearly more negotiating to be done before the UK government is willing to send the proposals to the EC.

A Welsh Government spokesperson said today, ”We have received the response from the UK Government setting out a number of challenges to our proposals. We want to work with the UK Government to allow us to be able to provide this connectivity across the UK which will be especially important post Brexit and to help re-balance the UK economy.”

A UK spokesperson said today, “Our aviation strategy will consider wider use of PSOs and we will use our upcoming Green Paper and consultation as an opportunity to fully work up the policy options, ensuring it is fit for the whole of the UK.”

The routes that the Welsh Government would like to see as PSOs are Cardiff to Manchester, Leeds-Bradford, Humberside, Glasgow, Aberdeen, London, Newquay, Inverness and Norwich. Manchester is reported to be their number one target.

[PDXCWL45]

I’m aware of the No destination on the Cardiff route but this should have been appealed as the demand is there just the aircraft isn’t. The terminal could cope with double the passengers on the Cardiff aircraft.
But London should be a given, I don’t see why investment would be a problem the owners and investors in the new power plant would probably pay for most of the cost of a larger terminal building.

Even if the WG had investors in the end it's up to the MOD as VLY is an RAF base. Would they allow expansion of the civilian side to several flights a day including business jet movements as well? It will be interesting to see if the WG can agree a deal with them for that in the future.

As for the PSO routes from Cardiff i don't see them happening as i think the UK government will just say no. If the Welsh government wants Flybe to launch a Manchester route then they are going to have to back it another way.

[SWBKCB]

As regards Cardiff-London, on the face it rail connectivity, soon to be improved even more with electrification, would make an air PSO extremely unlikely. The rail journey is under three hours, well under in fact, and it’s probable that the half-hourly frequency would not satisfy the principle for an air PSO.

Cardiff-Manchester is only just over 3 hours by direct train.

[caaardiff]

Cardiff-Manchester is only just over 3 hours by direct train.

My thoughts exactly. That's city to city too. Is there really enough business/leisure traffic to support 2 return flights per day?
Connectivity wise, what could MAN offer CWL?
There is of course Atlantic connections, but not sure MAN is a big enough HUB.
We have QR to the east so why dilute that?
Flybe use CWL as a mini hub for some connections, so why take that away from CWL. Other connections using BE via MAN seem pointless given that it's in the wrong direction to connect to where anyone would want to go.
If this was a standalone route then crack on and good luck. But no way should this be funded. If any money was going to go into connecting MAN it should go on improving train capacity as this can be a busy route.

[MerchantVenturer]

My thoughts exactly. That's city to city too. Is there really enough business/leisure traffic to support 2 return flights per day?
Connectivity wise, what could MAN offer CWL?
There is of course Atlantic connections, but not sure MAN is a big enough HUB.
We have QR to the east so why dilute that?
Flybe use CWL as a mini hub for some connections, so why take that away from CWL. Other connections using BE via MAN seem pointless given that it's in the wrong direction to connect to where anyone would want to go.
If this was a standalone route then crack on and good luck. But no way should this be funded. If any money was going to go into connecting MAN it should go on improving train capacity as this can be a busy route.
When the proposals were first unveiled in May the Welsh Government's Transport Secretary made this statement in the Senedd.

https://gov.wales/about/cabinet/cabinetstatements/2018/UpdateonthedevelopmentofaviationPublicServiceObligationsPSO/?lang=en

As regards funding of the routes, he said, "Other than some modest marketing budget, I do not intend to provide any further subsidy for these new routes. Early market indication is the proposed incentives may be sufficient for many, if not all, of these routes to operate in this way – but only a formal tender process will flush that out. If the market does not think these incentives are sufficient for a particular route, then no contract will be awarded for that route."

The incentives mentioned are a four-year period of exclusivity on each of the routes and an absence of air passenger duty.

[SWBKCB]

No subsidy but a reduction in taxation - hmmm... :rolleyes:

[heading 125]

No subsidy but a reduction in taxation - hmmm... :rolleyes:

well it's seems APD is firmly back on the Welsh Assemblies agenda and being raised by Andrew RT Davies as well as other AMs. As the airport is one of the major employers in Alun Cairnes constituency and as he is the Secretary of Estate for Wales I expect he'll support it for the airport and their employees through Westminster.

[PDXCWL45]

well it's seems APD is firmly back on the Welsh Assemblies agenda and being raised by Andrew RT Davies as well as other AMs. As the airport is one of the major employers in Alun Cairnes constituency and as he is the Secretary of Estate for Wales I expect he'll support it for the airport and their employees through Westminster.

Alun Cairns has never supported APD being devolved to Wales and unless it suits him politically is never likely to.
I'd be surprised if any Westminster government devolved APD to Wales especially this one.

[heading 125]

Surely he must support it as it is the biggest employer in his constituency and as secretary of estate of Wales he would be fighting to get it for Wales. It would be very surprising if he wasn’t. That’s what he is in post as the Vale MP and Welsh Secretary to do. The Northern Ireland and Scottish Secretaries have been successful for their regions why would Wales be any different.

[PDXCWL45]

Surely he must support it as it is the biggest employer in his constituency and as secretary of estate of Wales he would be fighting to get it for Wales. It would be very surprising if he wasn’t. That’s what he is in post as the Vale MP and Welsh Secretary to do. The Northern Ireland and Scottish Secretaries have been successful for their regions why would Wales be any different.
He's a member of the UK government and the UK government doesn't support devolution of APD to Wales. As the local MP I'm sure he's supportive of the airport itself just not devolving APD.
I believe his reason is because the airport is in the South and North Wales won't benefit

[PDXCWL45]

CAA stats August 2018
202,405 passengers used the airport up 11.1%. The rolling year was 1,548,474 up 8% on 2017.
Atms were 1794 up 4.6%.
Freight was 219 tonnes. 211 tonnes set down and 8 tonnes picked up.
Top 10 routes for August 2018
1. Palma de Mallorca 21,308
2. Amsterdam 12,851
3. Doha 11,568
4. Dublin 10,540
5. Malaga 10,516
6. Alicante 10,413
7. Edinburgh 9973
8. Faro 9489
9. Paris CDG 8390
10. Dalaman 7974

[Letsflycwl]

Pretty impressive figures on the DOH route considering it is month 3 of the route and after all the initial negative press it had. That load is not far off the BHX-DOH which has been operating a few years and it has to be around 75% load factor for CWL so obviously the route is proving itself rather well.

[Flightrider]

You simply can't tell. 73% loadfactor isn't especially high for a long-haul service and there is every prospect that the yield isn't high as Cardiff has been included in every Qatar Airways low fare promotion going. You can easily fly services at 100% loadfactor and still lose money. What you can tell is that the service is not doing well from a cargo perspective. 8 tonnes uplifted from the entire airport in the month of August is dire. Given that cargo accounts for a good proportion of long-haul income, the absence of it certainly won't be helping the economics of the QR service but whether they're good, bad or indifferent to begin with would be pure guesswork.

Far far too early to be hanging out the bunting yet.

[PDXCWL45]

The numbers for Doha are very good especially as many people doubted the service should even exist. As for the yield we don't know what that is like for any airport Qatar Airways fly too. What is great is that Amsterdam is doing so well and not being effected passenger numbers wise.
As for cargo 8 tonnes sounds dire but we actually don't know what is being exported. The goods may well be lightweight and high volume
Also it's good to see Dublin back over 10,000 again!

[bycrewlgw]

You simply can't tell. 73% loadfactor isn't especially high for a long-haul service and there is every prospect that the yield isn't high as Cardiff has been included in every Qatar Airways low fare promotion going. You can easily fly services at 100% loadfactor and still lose money. What you can tell is that the service is not doing well from a cargo perspective. 8 tonnes uplifted from the entire airport in the month of August is dire. Given that cargo accounts for a good proportion of long-haul income, the absence of it certainly won't be helping the economics of the QR service but whether they're good, bad or indifferent to begin with would be pure guesswork.

Far far too early to be hanging out the bunting yet.

211 tonnes brought in though so not like there’s not a cargo operation there. Edi for comparison only dropped 10 tonnes and picked up 4 so I’m sure the route isn’t performing too badly.

Yes yield is the main factor we all know that and it’s been talked to death several times on here but the fares are comparible to the London airports so they’re not heavily discounted. Of course CWL and I’m sure many other airports feature in the low fares promotions, it’s a new route and is going to take time to bed in. The passenger figures show there’s a market. What do they say? Loss in 1st year, break even in 2nd and profit in 3rd?

[Flightrider]

That used to be the old CAA route licensing hearing principle and it no longer applies. Most airlines now are seeking a break even at worst in year one, profit by year two. Margins are so thin that you can’t take short term losses in any magnitude.

[caaardiff]

That used to be the old CAA route licensing hearing principle and it no longer applies. Most airlines now are seeking a break even at worst in year one, profit by year two. Margins are so thin that you can’t take short term losses in any magnitude.

So given that the figures have increased to 73% LF within 4 months there's still another 8 months to grow before it needs to break even. There has been some good deals from CWL, but also similar pricing with other carriers at other Airports. Various reports that the front end is also doing well and there's some cargo being carrier through which will certainly help yield. It wouldn't be a surprise if the operating costs are initially quite low at CWL in comparison to other Airports.
I do think this is a much longer term project though for QR and the Welsh Government. Things won't instantly change with the economy after a few months of a new route, but if it helps boost the Welsh economy, whether that be in additional business travel, more money to spend on holidays or increase in industry leading to more cargo, then eventually the results will be seen.
I was sceptical over this route, especially seeing as QR in general don't seem to have high LF's at other airports. But I must say I'm impressed on the results in such a short time. Hopefully it's sustainable through the winter and further beyond.

[PDXCWL45]

Cardiff Airport posts first profit in 8 years of £7000.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/cardiff-airport-profit-first-time-15228561

[ensiferum23]

Cardiff Airport posts first profit in 8 years of £7000.<br /><br /> That's hardly something to boast about, they are still in the red, however next year will be even better.

[PDXCWL45]

<br /> That's hardly something to boast about, they are still in the red, however next year will be even better.
Who's boasting? It's news.

[Flightrider]

however next year will be even better

I suspect that all depends on from whose budget the support for the Qatar Airways Doha service is coming. If it's from Cardiff Airport's coffers then I doubt the airport will show a profit.

A vanity project if ever I saw one.

[PDXCWL45]

I suspect that all depends on from whose budget the support for the Qatar Airways Doha service is coming. If it's from Cardiff Airport's coffers then I doubt the airport will show a profit.

A vanity project if ever I saw one.
The only sort of 'support' is the marketing deal between the Welsh government and Qatar Airways. As for it being a vanity project would you say that if Qatar had gone to BRS or BFS or EXT?
It seems many people sadly seem quite bitter that Qatar choose Wales and Cardiff and are helping to boost inbound tourism into Wales and help the profile of the country and give it's people an opportunity to fly from Wales and not another country.

[Flightrider]

I think that's exactly the point. Qatar would not have chosen BRS, BFS or EXT as none of the local funding authorities in those locations would have offered the magnitude of support required to secure the service. Had they done so, I would indeed have classed it as a vanity project. The fact remains that only CWL and the Welsh Government did. An increasing proportion of services at Cardiff only exist because of the terms offered which a commercial enterprise could not, in my view, afford to do. How this continues to escape state aid considerations is beyond belief.

[PDXCWL45]

I think that's exactly the point. Qatar would not have chosen BRS, BFS or EXT as none of the local funding authorities in those locations would have offered the magnitude of support required to secure the service. Had they done so, I would indeed have classed it as a vanity project. The fact remains that only CWL and the Welsh Government did. An increasing proportion of services at Cardiff only exist because of the terms offered which a commercial enterprise could not, in my view, afford to do. How this continues to escape state aid considerations is beyond belief.
Yes god forbid the Welsh government should be able to promote Wales and attract airlines to fly directly into Wales to the benefit of Wales.
All airports generally offer incentives to airlines to operate from them through various means so how is Cardiff any different from anywhere else the world over?

[SWBKCB]

Because it's the government doing it - and offering advantages that aren't available to comptetitors.

[bycrewlgw]

I think that's exactly the point. Qatar would not have chosen BRS, BFS or EXT as none of the local funding authorities in those locations would have offered the magnitude of support required to secure the service. Had they done so, I would indeed have classed it as a vanity project. The fact remains that only CWL and the Welsh Government did. An increasing proportion of services at Cardiff only exist because of the terms offered which a commercial enterprise could not, in my view, afford to do. How this continues to escape state aid considerations is beyond belief.

rather than whinging in here why not contact the EU and put a complaint in? They can investigate it for you as you’re so sure about state aid. A simple google search will bring up the state aid complaint form. If you prefer I can post the link for you too.

[PDXCWL45]

Because it's the government doing it - and offering advantages that aren't available to comptetitors.
Yet none of those competitors have put in a complaint as far as anyone knows so they can't be that bothered about it or see Cardiff as competition or a threat.

[Flightrider]

I think you'll find two have submitted the complaints. I don't need the form or the sarcasm myself, thanks. The issue isn't about a Government being pro-active in supporting economic development and air services. It's the extent to which the Cardiiff contingent has intervened in the market and the magnitude of support introduced in pure cash terms which is extraordinary and the key difference to other regions and areas.

[LGS6753]

Although most people reading this board are in favour of aviation developments, there is a view that taxpayers' money (taken compulsorily from every man, woman and child) should not be used to prop up any long-haul air service.

[PDXCWL45]

I think you'll find two have submitted the complaints. I don't need the form or the sarcasm myself, thanks. The issue isn't about a Government being pro-active in supporting economic development and air services. It's the extent to which the Cardiiff contingent has intervened in the market and the magnitude of support introduced in pure cash terms which is extraordinary and the key difference to other regions and areas.
Well that's interesting news! I wonder who they are that's complained bevatse in reality Cardiff Airport isn't really a competitor for any of the airports nearby.

[PDXCWL45]

Although most people reading this board are in favour of aviation developments, there is a view that taxpayers' money (taken compulsorily from every man, woman and child) should not be used to prop up any long-haul air service.
The marketing deal between the Welsh government and Qatar Airways is to promise Wales as a country through Qatar Airways network. That can only benefit Wales and her people.

[heading 125]

The marketing deal between the Welsh government and Qatar Airways is to promise Wales as a country through Qatar Airways network. That can only benefit Wales and her people.
and APD devolved to Wales will be the next step in boasting the Welsh economy. It's " when, not if".

[PDXCWL45]

and APD devolved to Wales will be the next step in boasting the Welsh economy. It's " when, not if".
Fingers crossed for that!

[Reversethrustset]

Aren't there more pressing things in life to be worrying about rather than whether the Welsh government has funded a couple of routes? Seriously.

[Midland Alpha9]

I think that's exactly the point. Qatar would not have chosen BRS, BFS or EXT as none of the local funding authorities in those locations would have offered the magnitude of support required to secure the service. Had they done so, I would indeed have classed it as a vanity project. The fact remains that only CWL and the Welsh Government did. An increasing proportion of services at Cardiff only exist because of the terms offered which a commercial enterprise could not, in my view, afford to do. How this continues to escape state aid considerations is beyond belief.
This is nothing to do with state aid as I have said previously this is no different to other locations within the UK offering marketing inducements. QR have been considering the prospect for numerous years prior to the route launch earlier this spring.
Indications I have received from sources within Qatar Airways say they are encouraged by the commercial numbers thus far. Whilst I do not fly the red flag personally the Welsh government should be applauded for taking back control of CWL. Yes we all know they paid circa 25M over the top but at least it is now a going concern with a future and not another retail park.

[Midland Alpha9]

[QUOTE=PDXCWL45;10265639]Fingers crossed for that![/QUOTE
I second that lets have the same flexibility as Mrs Krankie in Scotland

[zoomboy]

The Cardiff Qatar is decried as a 'vanity project'. But so are make-up, car-ownership, and writing a comment without cliche.
Recently a member of our family used the service with colleagues to travel to India to setup a joint R&D project. Soon he'll be using the KLM service to do the same in Europe, again bringing work and money to South Wales. I must stop - it's vain to boast of such workaday achievements.
I assume all those who condemn the service as receiving an incentive from the airport never accept introductory inducements from utility suppliers etc.It would be so hypocritical to have your electric or netflix cross-subsidised by those paying the real cost plus.

[SWBKCB]

I assume all those who condemn the service as receiving an incentive from the airport never accept introductory inducements from utility suppliers etc.It would be so hypocritical to have your electric or netflix cross-subsidised by those paying the real cost plus.

So long as the inducements are available to everybody, not a problem. It's selective government funded inducements which aren't available to competitors which is the issue

[bycrewlgw]

So long as the inducements are available to everybody, not a problem. It's selective government funded inducements which aren't available to competitors which is the issue

but you can say the same for everything just read about a steel company going bust despite a 5m government grant. Where was the same for coal for example? What deal was given to Nissan to stay in the UK following Brexit? Why has the same deal not been given to another company?

It has been confirmed that £1m has been matched with Qatar to develop the route. There’s no reason why Visit England or Visit Scotland etc can’t offer the same. If they choose not to that’s up to them.

as for the other loans provided to the airport they’re on commercial terms which will be available to every business.

[supermarine]

The Welsh Assembly Government has given 18 million quid to Aston Martin as an inducement to come to St. Athan. This does not seem to have bothered any plane spotters, and it is a damn side more than has been given to CWL

[heading 125]

I think I’ll put a bet in place that long haul APD is devolved to Wales and that Qatar Airways increase their flights from Cardiff. 😀

[Flightrider]

There is something of a difference between a long term investment in capital facilities and an air service that can be withdrawn the day the money runs out! I stick by my views - clearly not popular but it is also reaching the point where everyone knows Cardiff pay airlines to fly there and no-one will develop services there now without being paid to do it. If you’re happy with that situation and think it’s sustainable then I’d support full devolution of all tax affairs to WG soonest so that none of my taxes are going forwards funding this charade!

[PDXCWL45]

There is something of a difference between a long term investment in capital facilities and an air service that can be withdrawn the day the money runs out! I stick by my views - clearly not popular but it is also reaching the point where everyone knows Cardiff pay airlines to fly there and no-one will develop services there now without being paid to do it. If you’re happy with that situation and think it’s sustainable then I’d support full devolution of all tax affairs to WG soonest so that none of my taxes are going forwards funding this charade!
Except it's not your taxes as by the sounds of it you don't live in Wales.
And you have proof airlines won't fly to Cardiff unless they are paid?

[SWBKCB]

Except it's not your taxes as by the sounds of it you don't live in Wales.

This is getting silly now - you might want to check your facts.

[caaardiff]

There is something of a difference between a long term investment in capital facilities and an air service that can be withdrawn the day the money runs out! I stick by my views - clearly not popular but it is also reaching the point where everyone knows Cardiff pay airlines to fly there and no-one will develop services there now without being paid to do it. If you’re happy with that situation and think it’s sustainable then I’d support full devolution of all tax affairs to WG soonest so that none of my taxes are going forwards funding this charade!

It's fairly obvious that currently CWL is being supported by SOME Airlines that are benefiting from whatever it is is being given. Whether it be marketing help, reduced fees or some kind of subsidy. The are other Airlines at CWL that have been there some time and I doubt they are still receiving any benefits.
TUI are growing to a 3rd aircraft next summer. Although it's not much to shout about, they are still maintaining the winter long haul and cruise schedules.
Vueling are operating decent schedules and have now been around some time. It was said they previously had marketing incentives, which I doubt are still being provided.
CWL is growing after being neglected by Abertis years ago. Had the investment been provided throughout it would be interesting to see where CWL would be now. What the WG has done is provided investment that should have been done by Abertis. The issue is that it's now in the public eye and continually being scrutinised. But lets not forget that ultimately the investment in QR is an investment in the Welsh economy, not just CWL.

What no-one knows is what will happen post "incentive time" for Flybe and Qatar. Flybe are said to be happy with the CWL operation, but I would also think some of their routes aren't performing as well as they could be. As for QR, it's only a few months in. Figures are growing and becoming comparable to the likes of BHX already. It could go either way, and I believe there's valid points provided on both sides, but only time will tell. There's obviously some pessimistic views and some optimistic views, this is a rumour and open forum after all.
What is evident is whatever CWL are doing, they are doing it right. Growth is happening, but there's still a long way to go. Personally I think it's too early to write off anything that's currently happening as a long term failure.
Given that BRS has grown by over 2m passenger in the past 4/5 years and is projected to continually grow, where it's currently at 8+m per year, there's no doubt that a proportion of that is from the South Wales catchment (1m+ is a figure thrown around recently). What CWL is slowly doing is winning those passengers back. Clearly not all of those passengers are going to switch to CWL as they may to travelling to places offered from BRS but not CWL. But I do know that many people that use BRS are travelling to places offered from CWL, but either default to the likes of EZY and FR without checking CWL because of the age old perception that's it's always more expensive to fly from CWL, which I would say is not always true. CWL needs to work on trying to promote itself and change that way of thinking. Help the current routes to grow and become sustainable, and then look to the future growth of route network.

[PDXCWL45]

This is getting silly now - you might want to check your facts.
I know my facts thank you and yes you are right this is getting silly but this seems to happen on the Cardiff thread because people can't seem to cope with Cardiff growing again and some people seem offended by that it seems to me.

[SWBKCB]

Except it's not your taxes as by the sounds of it you don't live in Wales.

The implication here is that those in the UK who live outside of Wales don't contribute to the funding of the Welsh Government. Have I understood correctly, and if so can you provide any evidence to support your comment?

I've nothing against state intervention and I've nothing against Cardiff growing - I do however believe that state intervention should be fair and open, and available to every one.

[MerchantVenturer]

The implication here is that those in the UK who live outside of Wales don't contribute to the funding of the Welsh Government. Have I understood correctly, and if so can you provide any evidence to support your comment?

I've nothing against state intervention and I've nothing against Cardiff growing - I do however believe that state intervention should be fair and open, and available to every one.

https://beta.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2018-10/draft-budget-2019-2020-leaflet.pdf

This is a brief summary on Welsh Government funding.

[jensdad]

I do however believe that state intervention should be fair and open, and available to every one.
If the 'state' involved is the Welsh government then they can only give it to airports in Wales. Regardless of whether a percentage of that money comes from the rest of the UK, responsibility for how it is spent has been devolved to the Welsh government. As has been mentioned, if administrations in other parts of the UK choose not to spend their cash in the same way, that's not Wales's problem.

[PDXCWL45]

Eastern Airways will operate a reduced schedule on their Cardiff to Newcastle route between now and the 21st December.
Monday to Thursday will be 1 daily flight CWL-NCL 10.25-11.50 NCL-CWL 14.00-15.25
On Fridays there will be CWL-NCL 10.25-11.50 NCL-CWL 13.15-14.40 CWL-NCL 18.25-19.50
On Sundays there will be NCL-CWL 16.05-17.30 inbound flight only
So it's looking like 1 J41 will overnight at CWL and will operate this pattern Monday to Thursday.
CWL-VLY-CWL-NCL NCL-CWL-VLY-CWL
On Fridays it looks like this.
CWL-VLY-CWL-NCL NCL-CWL-VLY-CWL-NCL
The schedule goes back to 10 weekly in January.

[TOM100]

T3 might aswell give up the route - cancelled again today ! BRS for me....I can’t plan with such unreliability

[PDXCWL45]

T3 might aswell give up the route - cancelled again today ! BRS for me....I can’t plan with such unreliability
I found it's cheaper to fly to Edinburgh and catch the train down!

[caaardiff]

New route from FR. CWL-BCN starting summer 19. 2x weekly

VY must be chopping the route after all.

[PDXCWL45]

Good news as at least CWL won't lose a route and will get a daily Ryanair movement in summer 2019.

[PDXCWL45]

So Ryanair for Summer 2019 looks like this.
Faro is 2 weekly Monday and Friday the same as this year.
Monday FAO-CWL 08.45-11.25 CWL-FAO 11.50-14.30
Friday FAO-CWL 16.20-19.00 CWL-FAO 19.25-22.05
Tenerife South is 1 weekly Thursday the same as this year.
TFS-CWL 14.20-18.15 CWL-TFS 18.40-22.45
Malta NEW is 2 weekly Wednesday and Sunday
MLA-CWL 07.00-09.25 CWL-MLA 09.50-14.15
Barcelona NEW is 2 weekly Tuesdays and Saturdays
Tuesday BCN-CWL 08.25-09.30 CWL-BCN 09.55-13.00
Saturdays BCN-CWL 07.40-08.45 CWL-BCN 09.10-12.15
That gives Cardiff 7 weekly flights from Ryanair +4 on 2018 and a Ryanair movement on every day of the week.

[PDXCWL45]

178,681 passengers for September up 7% on 2017. Rolling year was 1.56 million passengers up 8%.
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/10/24/cardiff-airport-jets-into-winter-with-more-passenger-growth/?fbclid=IwAR1d126C2Kraz2OLpqVZK7y4yLWv5ur2WCX-1U04J6L7VGJ5Z9Z_nJT-mVc

[bycrewlgw]

178,681 passengers for September up 7% on 2017. Rolling year was 1.56 million passengers up 8%.
https://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/2018/10/24/cardiff-airport-jets-into-winter-with-more-passenger-growth/?fbclid=IwAR1d126C2Kraz2OLpqVZK7y4yLWv5ur2WCX-1U04J6L7VGJ5Z9Z_nJT-mVc

the article also states that BE have released their full schedule. The BE website seems to suggest otherwise unless TXL / DUS etc are cut next year