LUTON History and Nostalgia [Archive] - Page 7

JW411

11th Jun 2016, 17:56

I wonder if the "NEC" stamped on the end of the cartridge shown above is related to the term "Net Explosive Content" that we used to use in Transport Command?

I seem to remember that carrying passengers (except troops) with a cargo which had an NEC of more than 200 lbs was not allowed, for example.

Somebody mentioned AVPIN. This was a highly flammable and volatile substance that no one ever wanted to carry.

So, we are getting towards the very end of 1975 and 39 Sqn with Canberra PR.9s are heading for Jamaica to re-map the place. Two Britannias and one Belfast are in support. On the way through Bermuda, the Britannia carrying the AVPIN forgets to offload it.

Result; New Years Day and we are invited to fly Belfast XR367 back to Bermuda from Montego Bay with a 5 gallon can of AVPIN so that the 39 Sqn Canberras can start their engines!

Our original destination from Montego Bay was Charleston AFB, South Carolina so going back to Bermuda was just a little bit of a major dogleg!

Buster the Bear

12th Jun 2016, 14:02

http://i67.tinypic.com/2wren2p.jpg

Buster the Bear

12th Jun 2016, 14:04

http://i68.tinypic.com/ipshfa.jpg

Buster the Bear

12th Jun 2016, 14:17

http://i67.tinypic.com/2j4t36x.jpg

lotus1

12th Jun 2016, 15:00

Great pictures the invicta dc4 was in a episode of the Saint recently with a Autair ambassador which I beleive Aqua planed on jacks

vintage ATCO

12th Jun 2016, 17:01

G-ALZS 14 Sep 1967. No casualties. Had a local WI on board.

no butz

13th Jun 2016, 18:50

Ten minutes of pure nostalgia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYU6FR4uaM

vintage ATCO

13th Jun 2016, 20:12

In the days when most chaps wore ties to travel. Nice view of the marquee!

treadigraph

13th Jun 2016, 20:14

Courtline scheme really did look good. Never saw it in the flesh...

SpringHeeledJack

13th Jun 2016, 20:22

During the overhead footage, behind the pink Court TriStar there appeared to be either an RAF Beverley, or the french equivalent (Breguet 763 ??) on the apron. Parked sort of where a lot of the biz jets are parked past the taxiway and before the hangars. Any info ?Loved the video, the people all looked like Sid James in a sartorial sense ;-)

SHJ

vintage ATCO

13th Jun 2016, 20:34

Court Line acquired Beverley XB259/G-AOAI with the idea of flying spare engines out should one of the TriStars go AOG. Don't think it was ever used and it sat around for a couple of years. Following Court Line's demise it finally flew out to Paull Airfield on 30 Mar 1974. It was subsequently dismantled.

treadigraph

13th Jun 2016, 20:35

It's the ex A&AEE Beverley bought by Courtline to ferry RB-211s around if needed. Now with Beverley Association (http://www.beverley-association.org.uk/html/259/259.htm) at Fort Paull.

PAXboy

13th Jun 2016, 20:42

Fabulous video no butz. Apart from the great clothing and the cars, I liked that thte TriStar was being loaded through THREE sets of steps. Also notable is how many chairs there are - now they rely on 'paid for' chairs at eating joints. CourtLine was long gone before I moved to the area in 1984.

LTNman

13th Jun 2016, 20:46

More seating in the old terminal than now! Everyone looking smart in the days when flying was still special.

boeing_eng

13th Jun 2016, 20:55

How things have changed...I watched two kids get off a flight at LTN the other day without shoes!:ugh:

DaveReidUK

13th Jun 2016, 21:02

I liked that the TriStar was being loaded through THREE sets of steps.

One of the customer options on the TriStar, taken up by many operators including Court Line (and BA), was to replace the rear emergency exit with a full-sized passenger boarding door to give maximum flexibility for quick turnarounds.

I don't think I ever saw all four in use at once, but it doesn't surprise me that Court Line would use three when they could get enough steps..

Falcon666

13th Jun 2016, 22:46

Out of curiosity what was the function of the land where Monarchs HQ is now.
In the video its is raised on three sides, a compound of some description?

LTNman

14th Jun 2016, 04:22

That was the engine test bay seen in the photo on page 74 post 1480.http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/527527-luton-history-nostalgia-74.html#post9395480

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/bank%202_zpsrpiyxnmo.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/bank%202_zpsrpiyxnmo.jpg.html)

You missed the other one seen here that I think was used for helicopter engine testing but then I can't remember helicopter engines being made at Luton so maybe I am wrong.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/bank%201_zps5zbzcdta.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/bank%201_zps5zbzcdta.jpg.html)

Buster the Bear

16th Jun 2016, 18:47

http://i64.tinypic.com/r72adu.jpg

T-21

17th Jun 2016, 17:06

Re the helicopter test rig believe this was for the Percival P.74 helicopter. The rotor blades were tested there using a Derwent engine mounted in a rig March to December 1955. 40 hours of test running had been completed. Source David Gearings excellent book "On The Wings Of A Gull" Percival & Hunting Aircraft.

T-21

17th Jun 2016, 17:10

The Tiger Moth G-AMTO by the tower was owned by Farm Aviation, Rush Green.

Haraka

17th Jun 2016, 18:38

The Tiger Moth G-AMTO by the tower was owned by Farm Aviation, Rush Green.
Indeed! IIRC and the photo seems to support it , weren't they converted to single seat configuration?
I recall that they had blue fuselages..but it was many years ago..:)

Haraka

17th Jun 2016, 18:57

the Percival P.74 helicopter.Ron Gellatly ( Fairey Rotodyne etc,) was brought in to initiate the P.74 into flight test
Apparently it frightened him to death. He needed both hands (and arm muscles) on the control ( cyclic) column to attempt to stop it flailing around,leaving him little spare capacity for anything else. It just wouldn't fly.
At the end it was towed back by tractor across the airfield to the factory ,with the design team walking behind as if in a funeral cortege. As a kid I saw it in the factory and remarked upon the fact that it looked like a Prince fuselage on short legs...

LTNman

20th Jun 2016, 18:01

The old departure lounge mid 80's

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c275/ksmithltn/IMG_0001_zpsvwn0cypq.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/ksmithltn/media/IMG_0001_zpsvwn0cypq.jpg.html)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c275/ksmithltn/IMG_zpscwfov9zr.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/ksmithltn/media/IMG_zpscwfov9zr.jpg.html)

Wander00

20th Jun 2016, 19:15

Certainly looks it beat the current trek to gates at Stansted

canberra97

20th Jun 2016, 21:01

'The current trek to gates at Stansted'

Stansted is not alone is it!

Well you get that at bigger airports don't you!

no butz

22nd Jun 2016, 19:04

The old departure lounge mid 80's

The airside of the Terminal mirrored the bull horn style in the lounge and I guess was the last Terminal Building designed by the Council's Architects Department. Quite stylish for its day.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2hpsksh.jpg

no butz

22nd Jun 2016, 19:17

By way or contrast with LTNman's 80's shot here is the departure lounge in April 1961.

This was in the wooden building (airport building no. 50) at the base of the Control Tower which lasted so long and ultimately hosted Britannia, ATC Briefing Unit and the Tels section. Oh yes and some chap's office in the corner overlooking the ramp.

http://i65.tinypic.com/4ruic5.jpg

Credit Waller Studios

vintage ATCO

22nd Jun 2016, 21:23

Depends who you mean by "some chap's office in the corner overlooking the ramp". I was only there 1992-94 before I de-camped to the other end of the building.

I am having difficult reconciling the view inside with the view outside. Which way round do you reckon that is?

LTNman

23rd Jun 2016, 05:55

I can see the Britannia hangar being built through the window.

thegypsy

23rd Jun 2016, 06:10

I see the Captain has his hat on and the F/O is holding his in his hand:D

I remember a certain Britannia Captain DN who always for years carried his in a plastic bag. Eventually I believe the powers that be caught up with that and put a stop to it.

LTNman

23rd Jun 2016, 06:33

The terminal 1962

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/1962%202_zps64wmq09m.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/1962%202_zps64wmq09m.jpg.html)
Luton News

vintage ATCO

23rd Jun 2016, 13:22

I can see the Britannia hangar being built through the window. Yes, indeed, but it was my recollection that their were offices at that end of the building, occupied by Autair; obviously added later.

Your outside pic must have been taken shortly after the building was complete as you can make out the signal square immediately in front of it. That was soon re-positioned on the other side of the taxiway.

DH87B Hornet Moth in the distance which I would put money on being G-ADKL.

vintage ATCO

23rd Jun 2016, 13:32

Another view inside the 'new' terminal, presumably taken around the same time.
Barclays Bank which became the Flight Briefing Unit, the passageway to the right leading to the cafe in the previous photo.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/original%20terminal.jpg

sycamore

23rd Jun 2016, 15:00

V-A, `and probably the wing of `AMXL` next to it`....

LTNman

23rd Jun 2016, 15:02

I have never seen an inside photo before of that end of the terminal. That must have been as big as the wooden terminal got before the "new" terminal opened in I think 1966 or 1968.

zetec2

23rd Jun 2016, 19:24

I can see a Piston and a Jet Provost ?.

no butz

23rd Jun 2016, 19:48

I am having difficult reconciling the view inside with the view outside. Which way round do you reckon that is?

Yes as LTNman says I assume it's looking west.

Here's another nice view in mid 61. PH-VIG - presumably a diversion.

I'm pretty sure the chap on the wing is John Webb who became Bonded Stores Supervisor in the early seventies.

Photo credit Napiers.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2r4iwbr.jpg

OUAQUKGF Ops

23rd Jun 2016, 20:06

Aaah - what a wonderful Photograph - sums it all up!

vintage ATCO

24th Jun 2016, 06:35

Not sure if this is the same occasion, I can't quite make the registration out. It is dated 1962 and presumably came from the Jim Hannah collection.

Probably the first occasion KLM diverted to Luton after they announced it was their no. 1 diversion airfield.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/LHR%20diversions%201962.jpg

HP115

24th Jun 2016, 13:38

Ref post #1547. Capt DN and his plastic bag. I remember several occasions where I had to lnform him that Capt DD was on the next A/C or in the crew bus or just walking down from ops etc.

philbky

26th Jun 2016, 23:07

Classic picture. The diagonal stripe tail was substituted later for horizontal stripes when marketing decreed that that diagonals were off putting to passengers!! Out of interest can anyone say where the DC7CF, presumably a Heathrow diversion, had originated? At that time the usual KLM freighter for Heathrow from Amsterdam was a Dak.

Transatlantic flights which could not get into Amsterdam used Manchester as a diversion point. One glorious Saturday in the early 1960s saw two Connies and a DC7C and we just missed out on a DC8 which was later and had enough fuel to hold as the fog lifted.

LTNman

27th Jun 2016, 08:56

The AvgasDinosaur

27th Jun 2016, 12:09

Learned Contributors,
Can some one please advise of the stand numbers opposite the terminal building in the early 1970's where the Britannias used to frequent notably the Eurafric one on the Irish register and the RedCoat ones.
I was an infrequent visitor from Manchester at the time and have often wondered.
Thanks for your time and trouble, and thanks for a wonderful experience on this thread.
Be lucky
David
"The Avgasdinosaur"

philbky

27th Jun 2016, 14:03

After blowing the photo up it looks like a BKS Ambassador in the background and a couple of Jet Provost's behind the tail of the DC6.

Also there are piles of earth on what became the North West Corner so maybe that is under construction.
LTNman, as I said in my post, it is a DC7CF which is a DC7C converted to a freighter. Recognition clues:
Taller, slimmer tale than a DC6
Four bladed props
Few windows
Freight door at rear.

LTNman

27th Jun 2016, 14:36

Ops sorry philbky typo mistake:O

I have enlarged part of the photo on the previous page. Is that really the end of a wing sticking out through a slot in the hangar door? It so what would it be as I have seen a photo of their Lincoln parked the right way around so I can't think what would be bigger than their Lincoln that would need to be parked sideways.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/wing_zps45ty4nyu.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/wing_zps45ty4nyu.jpg.html)

Can some one please advise of the stand numbers opposite the terminal building in the early 1970's where the Britannias used to frequent notably the Eurafric one on the Irish register and the RedCoat ones.

That has got to be a question for Vintage ATCO. I have only ever know the hangar line to be stands 10 to 15 with 10 being outside the Monarch hangar and 15 being outside the Britannia hangar but I don't know if it was different in the early 70's

cj241101

27th Jun 2016, 15:25

Learned Contributors,
Can some one please advise of the stand numbers opposite the terminal building in the early 1970's where the Britannias used to frequent notably the Eurafric one on the Irish register and the RedCoat ones.
"The Avgasdinosaur"

I would agree with LTNman on this one. 10-15½ are the stands that I have recorded in my anorak log from 1976 onwards. What became 15L was known then as 15½. Further to this, the area referred to as "The Pond" i.e. what has been Signatures stand 16 for several years until recently, was known as 16, 17 and I believe 18 at the east end. I stand to be corrected, of course.

vintage ATCO

27th Jun 2016, 17:03

10, outside Monarch's hangar, to 15 outside Britannia's. 15L was added later.

vintage ATCO

27th Jun 2016, 17:11

The first Jet Provost, a T.1 c/n PAC/84/001 XD674. Not sure when the pic was taken but it first flew 25.1.54. The early JPs used piston Provosts u/c legs.

This aircraft made a wheels up landing on the grass at Luton 18.7.54 but it flew again the same day! It had a varied history and the airframe is now engineless at Cosford.

Someone on another forum has identified the chap in uniform as the Chief Airport Fire Officer, Vic Cable. In the days when test pilots wore ties!

Credit: BAE Systems Heritage - Hunting Percival Archive.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/XD674%20JP%20T1.jpg

compton3bravo

27th Jun 2016, 17:53

I thought Stand 18 was always part of the South stands but I am happy to be corrected by our retired atdcos. Of course a number of executive aircraft were parked on the light aircraft stand which ran parallel to McAlpine's hangar.

sycamore

27th Jun 2016, 18:12

Napier also made engines for the Wessex 1 and 3,so it may have had one inside the hangar possibly.

Vampiredave

27th Jun 2016, 18:34

You know that this is Hunting Percival's chief test pilot, R. G. 'Dick' Wheldon following the first flight of prototype Jet Provost T Mk.1, XD674, at Luton on 26 June 1954?

vintage ATCO

27th Jun 2016, 18:44

Thanks, Vampiredave, I did wonder. I have from elsewhere it was June but the Air Britain books states January. Certainly doesn't look like January!

DaveReidUK

27th Jun 2016, 19:19

Coverage of the JP's maiden flight in the 2nd July 1954 issue of Flight:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1954/1954%20-%201939.html

LTNman

28th Jun 2016, 05:32

I thought Stand 18 was always part of the South stands but I am happy to be corrected

The south stands start from 20. Stand 18 has only just been marked up again together with stand 19 on the Pond in readiness for when the stands pass back to the airport from Signature.

Haraka

28th Jun 2016, 06:20

Ref. the J.P.1's Provost undercarriage legs. It was a noticeable feature that when taxying over the grass, the legs had a habit of "walking " alternatively. I do remember seeing about 6 early JP 1's up in line astern formation over Luton for a photo sortie c. 1956.

vintage ATCO

28th Jun 2016, 21:05

Two pics of XD674, the first Jet Provost T.1, following its wheels up landing on the grass at Luton 18.7.54. It apparently flew again the same day!

Source: BAE Systems Heritage - Hunting Percival Archive

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/XD674%202.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/XD674%201.jpg

Wageslave

29th Jun 2016, 16:50

Isn't alternative walking what Monty Python were famous for?

22/04

5th Jul 2016, 12:06

I always thought stands 16 and 17 were known as the "ponda rosa" in the 70s- wide open spaces?

vintage ATCO

5th Jul 2016, 15:53

Yes, a term I have steadfastly refused to use. It got shortened to 'the pond'.

It comes from a TV series 'Bonanza' by NBC that ran from 1959 to 1973 of the Cartwright family living on a fictional Ponderosa Ranch.

22/04

5th Jul 2016, 22:53

But Vintage ATCO do you know how the term originated? I have no idea but it slipped into common usage.

Just looked at that KLM picture again. When was that large area of what looks like grass in the apron removed- is it an optical illusion?

Some ex KLM DC7Cs returned of course in Sudflug guise in 1967 - I still struggle in vain to get a schedule of those flights. Saw one depart from Chiltern Green when I had told my Dad I was going just round the corner from Welwyn- the deceit continued when I made the crash gate in 1968 for about another year. When I told him as a 14 year old he said "better than messing about with girls I suppose"!

vintage ATCO

6th Jul 2016, 06:41

My understanding is a Britannia engineer christened the area shortly after it opened based on the Ponderosa Ranch from the TV series Bonanza.

If you are asking about the etymology of the word, then no.

My brain hurts.

LTNman

6th Jul 2016, 07:37

Just looked at that KLM picture again. When was that large area of what looks like grass in the apron removed- is it an optical illusion?

This photo was posted by Buster the Bear sometime ago. If someone can date this photo then here is the answer. A close examination of the photo will show the new curved concrete that replaced the curved grass in front of the hangar, which is marked off with workman's oil lamps. Also what looks like the contraption that men would sit on while smoothing the concrete can be seen in front of the barrel.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/idak2f%20Buster_zpszapzn7zp.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/idak2f%20Buster_zpszapzn7zp.jpg.html)

Simtech

7th Jul 2016, 13:05

'BO was sold to Britannia Airways on 16th March 1970. The registration was cancelled as permanently withdrawn from use on 25th January 1971 and she was broken up at Luton in May of that year, so that narrows it down a bit...

boeing_eng

7th Jul 2016, 14:44

I think you'll find the 1970 date refers to when Britannia purchased G-ANBO.

It was operated under a lease from Jan 1965......

Simtech

7th Jul 2016, 14:50

It was operated under a lease from Jan 1965......

Narrows it a bit wider then!

22/04

7th Jul 2016, 15:09

That livery was used by Britannia from the introduction of the Britannia 102 until winter 67/68 when all were repainted into the later scheme.

LTNman

7th Jul 2016, 18:01

I also thought 1970/71 was too late so between 1965 to the winter of 1966/67 seems the right time to me also. Maybe it was filled in when the old terminal was built.

This photo shows the grass and the outline of the terminal as work was starting to replace the wooden buildings. The terminal opened in 1966 so this photo must be 1965
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/1962%202_zpsac3d57aa.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/1962%202_zpsac3d57aa.jpg.html)

compton3bravo

7th Jul 2016, 18:54

Interesting parking of aircraft wonder if it was a diversions day?

LTNman

7th Jul 2016, 19:30

Luton based Eagle Aviation Avro York, photo dated 1952. Eagle Aviation went on to become British Eagle.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/Avro_685_York_G-AMGK_Luton_1952_edited-2_zps6df55128.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/Avro_685_York_G-AMGK_Luton_1952_edited-2_zps6df55128.jpg.html)
origin of photo unknown

LTNman

9th Jul 2016, 17:12

They don't make aircraft like they used to
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/LN%20Con_zpsee36529e.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/LN%20Con_zpsee36529e.jpg.html)
Luton News

vintage ATCO

17th Jul 2016, 16:23

Percival Mew Gull G-AEXF which Alex Henshaw flew to Cape Town and back in 1939, setting a record which stood for 70 years. This photo was taken at Luton around 1954 when it had been modified with the awful raise canopy for Peter Clifford of Oxford (there was very limited forward view from the ‘Cape canopy’). It was sold in 1961 and the canopy restored. Unfortunately, this aircraft has suffered several accidents over the years and has been extensively rebuilt each time. It is now resident at Shuttleworth Old Warden where it flies regularly but little remains of the original airframe. Alex Henshaw’s story of the Cape trip is told in his book Flight of the Mew Gull (1980).

This negative took extensive repairs to make it as good as this and I am grateful to BAE Systems Heritage, Warton, for the work they do. Hunting Percival Archive.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/G-AEXF%20c1954.jpg

no butz

24th Jul 2016, 13:52

Finnish Air Force C-47 31st July 1971. I recall many interesting military visitors in the seventies.

http://i66.tinypic.com/oh6bmd.jpg

no butz

24th Jul 2016, 13:59

Swedish C-47 on 8th September 1979.

Behind looks like a 707 with Britannia titles - was that an Icelandic one on lease?

http://i64.tinypic.com/210hhsy.jpg

cj241101

24th Jul 2016, 20:24

Swedish C-47 on 8th September 1979.

Behind looks like a 707 with Britannia titles - was that an Icelandic one on lease?

TF-VLC, a B720B leased from Eagle Air for summer 1979.

cj241101

24th Jul 2016, 20:54

Finnish Air Force C-47 31st July 1971. I recall many interesting military visitors in the seventies.

Here's some more, mostly 80's and 90's though
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/460520Luton20280690_zpsgm0sd6ys.jpg~original
46+05 28/6/90
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/30420Luton20141290b_zpsk1funidq.jpg~original
304 14/12/90, a Northolt diversion I believe
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/FAC90220Luton20251182_zpscosehp43.jpg~original
FAC 902 25/11/82
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/15936220Luton20250591_zpsxx8npkls.jpg~original
159362 25/5/91
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/580820Luton20260587_zpsvenrrt7m.jpg~original
58+08 26/5/87
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/XS60620Luton20090284b_zpspxtw3cfs.jpg~original
XS606 9/2/84 after maintenance in the Monarch hangar
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/1801320US20Army20Luton20181278_zpsbzaul37z.jpg~original
66-18013 18/12/78 a Beech U-21A (King Air A90 I think)
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/7720Swedish20AF20Luton20270679_zpsegawdubh.jpg~original
Swedish AF 77 27/6/79, French Navy Nord 262 behind is No.75

cj241101

24th Jul 2016, 21:17

Finnish Air Force C-47 31st July 1971. I recall many interesting military visitors in the seventies.

"Finnish Air Force 231" if I remember correctly. Sounded like "Finnish Air 4231 on the RT - thought we had a hitherto unknown Finnish airline coming in!

PAXboy

26th Jul 2016, 13:24

XS606 9/2/84 after maintenance in the Monarch hangar
Uuhh what is THAT?!!

dixi188

26th Jul 2016, 13:34

That is an HS780 Andover C1.

lotus1

26th Jul 2016, 16:38

I think the chile Air Force 707 was in for spares for there hunters for a thank you ?

Level bust

26th Jul 2016, 16:49

The German Tornado visited as the pilot had a meeting at RAF Henlow. Nothing like your own personal jet!

no butz

26th Jul 2016, 20:55

http://i65.tinypic.com/jrd9pk.jpg

Does anyone know what event this was for? And when?

Canadian Forces 707 behind.

Photo by Eddie Papps

Since told it was a Southend diversion en route Groningen-Carlisle

PAXboy

26th Jul 2016, 22:25

Thanks dixi188. Not seen one with a rear ramp before.

The Alderney Airlines machine looks familiar ... almost as many windows as a classic VW camper.

cj241101

26th Jul 2016, 22:38

Does anyone know what event this was for? And when?

Canadian Forces 707 behind.

Photo by Eddie Papps

Don't know if there was anything special happening - I suspect the date was 27/2/86. The CAF 707 was 13705 which arrived at 1132 on this day, with the Rapide arriving at 1207. The exec 737 behind is VR-BEG. The 707 spent March, April and May 1986 on a check with Monarch. It did an air test on 23rd May, getting replaced on 24th by 13704.

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/1370520Luton20010586_zpspq6akg2x.jpg~original
13705 1/5/86

boeing_eng

5th Aug 2016, 20:22

It was always good to see the 707's tucked away in the back of Hangar 7/8 with the fins folded down!:ok:

dixi188

5th Aug 2016, 21:04

IIRC it was hangar 1/2 where Airline Engineering (Monarch) used to fold the fins down on the Boeing 720 / 707 and push them into the rear corner for D checks. I was there for a short while in 1979.

boeing_eng

7th Aug 2016, 19:40

7&8 is the current number of said hangar...Opposite Stand 10 (it could well have been different back then!)

dc9-32

8th Aug 2016, 07:26

I used to walk through the hangar abeam stand 10 as a short cut to get to work in the terminal. There was a little wooden door on rails that you just pulled across, stepped in, pulled it shut then strolled across the hangar floor.

Fond memories of 707's in various state of repair.

boeing_eng

8th Aug 2016, 16:44

Reminds me of the procession of BAL Engineers who used to walk straight across the taxiway between H89 and H61 in the 1980's often pulling toolboxes!:}

LTNman

10th Aug 2016, 19:40

The AvgasDinosaur who took these photos many moons ago has asked me to post them on his behalf and wonders if someone can answer the following questions

Did the Boeing 707/720 operators suffer any payload range penalties operating ex Luton. I'm thinking Monarch, Invicta, Britannia, Trans Asian ?

Which stand is the Brit on ?

Anyone got any good tales of the Bristol Britannia years at Luton particularly the freighter ops?

Can anyone I/D this Brit I accept it is a pretty shabby photo.

Many thanks for your time and trouble
The AvgasDinosaur

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/LTN-001_zpsf0rqx1ad.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/LTN-001_zpsf0rqx1ad.jpg.html)

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/LTN-002_zpskolejijs.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/LTN-002_zpskolejijs.jpg.html)

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/LTN-003_zpstif698hg.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/LTN-003_zpstif698hg.jpg.html)

treadigraph

10th Aug 2016, 20:10

The Britannia looks like EI-BCI.

DaveReidUK

10th Aug 2016, 20:18

The Britannia looks like EI-BCI.

Agreed - sans titles.

http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/52/52037_800.jpg

LTNman

10th Aug 2016, 20:37

Photo on this link confirming that it is the same aircraft as taken by The AvgasDinosaur with the following text.

Aviation Feature ? Luton Airport 1978-1985 | GAR (http://www.globalaviationresource.com/v2/2014/12/19/aviation-feature-luton-airport-1978-1985/)
EI-BCI is seen here in Eurafric’s basic colour scheme in the snow, shot in January 1979. Around that time it was leased to Aer Turas and is seen here with the trademark rhino on the tail painted out. Redcoat Air Cargo, also based at Luton, bought this airframe as G-BHAU. It replaced ill-fated Britannia G-BRAC which crashed after take-off from Boston-Logan due to severe icing, descending into a wooded area after only gaining an altitude of 1,700 feet.

LTNman

10th Aug 2016, 20:55

Which stand is the Brit on ?

Using this photo as a reference and by comparing the light and dark shading of the apron, which is the same on both photos, the Brit's are both on stand 11.

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/GW%201973_zps99rriisk.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/GW%201973_zps99rriisk.jpg.html)

Spiney Norman

11th Aug 2016, 01:34

LTNman. You mention any good tales of Bristol Britannia operations.....

It was a typically foggy night at Luton Airport with a low stratus base that had, as the night progressed, descended on to the surface. An easterly wind meant 08 was in use and, as this was in the good old days, an SRA terminating at a half nautical mile using the ACR430 was the way to go for any aircraft that wished to make an approach. I was working in the tower but unfortunately don't remember who my colleagues were on this occasion. Aircraft movements had been expected to be few and far between without the curse of the weather which had seen most of those scheduled divert elsewhere without even attempting an approach. In the early hours of the morning the clatter of the Lamson tube had delivered a teleprinted flight plan for a freighter Britannia operated by a based cargo airline. To our surprise, at the appointed ETA the aircraft turned up and elected to make an approach. The SRA went without a hitch and the aircraft landed and parked up without incident (apparently). As a grey dawn began to lighten the fog it was my turn to carry out the morning surface inspection so, shivering and cold, I made my way out to the runway in the dreadfully draughty yellow Land Rover. I entered the runway and made the run down to the 08 turning circle and was surprised to see some clods of mud on the southern runway edge which quickly resolved themselves into the mighty tyre tracks of a pair of bogies! I moved over to the Southern runway edge and peered into the fog...The tyre tracks ran off onto the grass and, after a quite tight angular turn, ran parallel to the runway surface but offset about 40/50ft from the actual runway edge! The tyre marks were around a foot deep and this surface penetration seemed to have helped as there was no skidding where the aircraft had made it's sudden turn to regain the runway as the crew must have realised that all the runway edge lights were on the left! One poor edge light had however reached the end of it's life by being squashed flat by the whispering giant. I called the tower and reported my findings to the chagrin of the tower controller who knew that, even in those far off years, there'd be some serious paperwork to follow. On my way back across the apron I stopped behind the prime suspect and saw that, unsuprisingly, the underside of the inboard engine cowlings and some of the aft fuselage was liberally coated with mud. No getting away at the end of the shift for us then! The tower 'senior man' rang the airline to advise them of our findings and, whilst we stood in the tower listening to his prolonged conversation, noticed a small group of personnel run out to the aircraft with yard brushes and buckets and vigorously begin to clean the mud off whilst their 'chief' issued strong denials on the phone that it certainly wasn't them and we should look elsewhere!......

But then things were very different in those days.......

Spiney Norman

11th Aug 2016, 01:55

Oops! I've just noticed another question......

Did the Boeing 707/720 operators suffer any payload range penalties operating ex Luton. I'm thinking Monarch, Invicta, Britannia, Trans Asian ?

I'm pretty certain the Monarch 720B's had no issues. I did a fam flight on, I think, G-AZFB? To the old Larnaca airport with a full load down the back and we certainly had no issues. The general ATC opinion was that they performed very well which was more than could be said for the Dan Air B727's! On the subject of Dan Air. Their Comet 4's also seemed to have spectacular field performance wherever they were bound for. My memory may be playing tricks here but I seem to remember a British MD80 operator in the 1980's who were the only airline I remember who would delay departures out of Luton for performance reasons on very hot days? Who were they, if they're not a figment of my imagination? I'll have to do some web research.

Success! Paramount and they were MD83's.

LTNman

11th Aug 2016, 05:09

The SRA went without a hitch and the aircraft landed and parked up without incident (apparently).

From memory, in those days RVR's were calculated by an airport firemen sitting in a little raised hut that sat on legs who would count runway edge lighting.

It must have been a cold lonely night sitting in that little hut while surrounded by a thick fog.

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/fraser_zpss9xtqxmz.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/fraser_zpss9xtqxmz.jpg.html)

Spiney Norman

11th Aug 2016, 07:29

From memory, in those days RVR's were calculated by an airport firemen sitting in a little raised hut that sat on legs who would count runway edge lighting.

It must have been a cold lonely night sitting in that little hut while surrounded by a thick fog.

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/fraser_zpss9xtqxmz.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/fraser_zpss9xtqxmz.jpg.html)

Correct. The firemen seemed to hate it as much as we did and it wasn't unusual to have to constantly ask them 'how many lights' because we thought we could discern a change in visibility but nothing had been heard from them. Quite frequently it was due to the failure of the very unreliable handset radios. The number of lights counted was checked against the official RVR table and noted on a proforma. Allegedly, someone checked the data against the Daily movement register and weather obs log to see if minima had been busted. Quite how well that worked I can only guess!

Spiney Norman

11th Aug 2016, 10:17

Reminds me of the procession of BAL Engineers who used to walk straight across the taxiway between H89 and H61 in the 1980's often pulling toolboxes!:}

An old friend of mine's dad used to be an engineer, (I think for BAL). He was a massive fan of the old black and white cowboy films. So much so he'd somehow got his security pass made out in the name of Tom Mix. Even once getting caught out crossing the apron by a fast taxying aircraft which got him intercepted by security didn't reveal his true identity.

seer557

11th Aug 2016, 11:32

Spiney Norman

11th Aug 2016, 12:00

In response to Spiney Norman (Post 1611), probably the same guys pictured here. (Also reported elsewhere on pprune I believe). Going "off road" seemed to be their speciality!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmakSwlYLs0

Love the video! Without actually naming the airline involved in my post, they subsequently fell foul of officialdom for (allegedly) importing 'exotic snuff' which HMRC discovered concealed in a bulkhead. I believe their aircraft was one of the ex-RAF Bristol Britannia's which found a home at Luton mainly due to the ministrations of Airline Engineering. Oh! By the way, the wheel ruts at Luton were significantly deeper due to the waterlogged state of the ground.

Level bust

11th Aug 2016, 15:34

Very similar to the Caledonian Tristar when backtracking 26 for departure decided he would keep to the left hand side of the runway whilst doing so. Unfortunately, the left main gear was on the soft tarmac that was between the grass and the runway edge lights. Luckily there was a vehicle following it down the runway and noticed, so we stopped him from taking off. Not sure what would have happened as the left bogie was covered in soft tarmac!

Offchocks

11th Aug 2016, 21:42

But then things were very different in those days.......

Sure were, today someone would have taken a few happy snaps with their phone and they would have been on Pprune within hours!

LTNman

11th Aug 2016, 22:51

No fences by the north west corner and 4ft fences around the spectators building. The carefree days of aviation at Luton lasted until the 70's

22/04

13th Aug 2016, 12:20

British Island operated MD80s out of Luton for a while.

Teaboy24

13th Aug 2016, 13:48

Mention of walking across the taxiway reminds me of the occasion in the early eighties when passenger control on the ramp is not what it is now. Two passengers walking from the gate to their aircraft late one evening decided to keep walking and crossed the taxiway and were found on the Merchantman which was loading newspapers on the hangar line looking for their seats.

Happy days

cj241101

13th Aug 2016, 14:39

Did the Boeing 707/720 operators suffer any payload range penalties operating ex Luton..

Speaking from memory the max TOW on the Monarch B720B's was 106,140kgs / 234,000lbs. They never needed a regulated TOW off the Luton runway - having the same P&W JT3d engines as the larger (9ft longer) B707-123B they were over-powered to say the least. Longest route operated regularly was Santa Maria in the Azores (SMA) to St Lucia (UVF), around 2300nm (according to Google Earth). This flight operated LTN-SMA-UVF on Mondays in a 170Y config in the late 70's. 707-320C G-AXRS replaced the 720's on this run in 1981. It still needed the fuel stop on the outward journey (restricted on TOW from LTN) but had the range to return direct UVF-LTN.

I can also recall the 720's operating a few flights to Accra in Ghana in 1977. I'm pretty sure they used to fly direct, around 2700nm.

LTNman

14th Aug 2016, 04:52

Think they were MOD trooping flights.

no butz

19th Aug 2016, 19:20

This photograph was taken 42 years ago today. We've just passed the latest anniversary of the Court Line collapse. The detention paperwork can be seen attached to the aeroplanes. I never believed the airport would recover from the events of that year but look at it now.

Photographer not known but sure not me at that height.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2z5q43s.jpg

LTNman

19th Aug 2016, 19:32

What a great photo. When Court went bust the Tristars were stored in the north west corner so I wonder where they are in this photo?

Spiney Norman

19th Aug 2016, 21:53

[QUOTE=LTNman;9479350]What a great photo. When Court went bust the Tristars were stored in the north west corner so I wonder where they are in this photo?[/QUOTE

Good point! I seem to remember the 1-111's being packed into the NW corner to take up minimum apron space with, (I think), the Tristars at the very back. The parking looks very neat and also as if the aircraft had mainly been taxyed on to stand.

The Court line bankrupcy had an indirect effect on some of us who worked in the tower as ATCAs at the time as our ATC licence courses were cancelled due to the financial impact on the Airport. It didn't stop any of us getting there in the end though!

dixi188

19th Aug 2016, 22:27

When Court Line went bust the 1-11s were re-possessed by BAC pretty quickly.
My Father (a BAC Senior Inspector) flew to Luton from Hurn in the company HS125 with 4 BAC pilots and cleared the aircraft for the ferry flight to Hurn two at a time. I think the Liens on the aircraft were sorted by the commercial people.
Within about 2 or 3 days 10 of the aircraft were at Hurn with the word Court painted out so nobody would know where the aircraft were from!!!!!! (remember the colours)
The last of the 1-11s was stuck at Nicosia in Cyprus due to the war going on at the time. It was about 6 months later that my father was involved in recovering that aircraft.
This info is IIRC.

Spiney Norman

20th Aug 2016, 02:47

vintage ATCO

20th Aug 2016, 08:09

One BAC1-11 ended up at Bristol (I think). The night Court Line went bust a message was passed to the captain of the aircraft to fly to Luton but apparently he said 'Sod it, these passengers have paid to go to Bristol' so landed there. Whether it was recovered to Luton later I cannot remember.

The TriStars were parked up in the corner for a long time.

no butz

20th Aug 2016, 08:24

What a great photo. When Court went bust the Tristars were stored in the north west corner so I wonder where they are in this photo?

The Tristars are on the left out of shot. Like the rest of the airport I turned out the morning after to see the pink one return home from Halifax (?) I recall.

Discorde

20th Aug 2016, 14:10

I have a (possibly faulty) memory that the aircraft stuck in Nicosia had actually been the recipient of some small arms fire and required some repairs to the pressure hull before it could be flown out?

At least one Trident suffered similar abuse (details here (http://das.org.uk/hawker-siddeley-h-s-121-trident-2e-g-avfb/)).

no butz

20th Aug 2016, 15:22

The Tristars are on the left out of shot. Like the rest of the airport I turned out the morning after to see the pink one return home from Halifax (?) I recall.

Here is my shot on 16th August 1974 as AB taxied in - apologies for such poor quality but at least I was there.

http://i65.tinypic.com/la8sj.jpg

lotus1

21st Aug 2016, 08:45

I remember flying out of Luton in 1975 must have been may or June and seeing this huge pink aircraft sitting alone next to my Britannia 737 which I flew to Ibiza on I was only a young lad and remember my father saying it was court line which went bust a year before also some family friends lost there holiday the previous year I think the tristar ended up with Cathy Pacific

cj241101

22nd Aug 2016, 15:43

Only pictures I ever managed of the Court Line Tristars. Both sat around the northwest corner of the airport for over a year after Court folded on 15/8/74. G-BAAB below - minus titles and logo - was returning following an air test on 7/10/75. It did another air test a couple of days later. I don't have the dates when the 2 aircraft were ferried back to Lockheed. Anyone help with that one?

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/G-BAAA20Luton20160974_zpssovmuv9p.jpg~original
G-BAAA 16/9/74

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/8f3b8be1-e002-4d00-b94f-cfd85a8e7176_zpsryacaask.jpg~original
G-BAAA 1/10/75

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/G-BAAB20Luton20071075_zpsquf4zin9.jpg~original
G-BAAB 7/10/75

cj241101

22nd Aug 2016, 16:25

Both aircraft indeed went to Cathay in 1977 having been reported stored at Palmdale after leaving LTN late 1975. "AA" then went to Aer Turas as EI-CNN in January 1997, appearing at the airport as such - I think minus any titles - on 24/6/98. My anorak log has it back and carrying Air Scandic colours on 12/5/99 and 16/5/99. Its active life ended when it was ferried to Abu Dhabi on 31/10/99. getting broken up there around Nov 2006.

"AB" went from Cathay to Caribbean Wind Airways as V2-LEM in March 1996, arriving at LTN as such at 0009 on 17/3/96, again as I recall with no titles. It was still there on 28/3/96. Air Transat then acquired it as C-FTSI in May 1998, but they only had it for a year or so, with the aircraft getting broken up in December 2000.

Luton Anorak

23rd Aug 2016, 09:30

G-BAAA departed Luton for the last time on the 21st November 1975 and G-BAAB followed four days later on the 25th November 1975.

rogerg

23rd Aug 2016, 10:10

When the pink one was parked it made a grand visual navigation aid when flying in grotty vis when I was air taxiing from Sywell and Cov.

cj241101

24th Aug 2016, 09:53

G-BAAA departed Luton for the last time on the 21st November 1975 and G-BAAB followed four days later on the 25th November 1975.
Thanks Luton Anorak for filling in a couple of gaps. Didn't realise they went as late in the year as that, so I hadn't scrutinised my notes that far. Found G-BAAA's dep date eventually but not G-BAAB.

LTNman

4th Sep 2016, 08:30

The view from the spectators car park when Luton had a 4ft fence that could be leaned on. What a great collection of cars! I think all of them are UK built apart from one Citroen and a VW Beetle.

Where the two women are standing is where the tunnel starts today under the taxiway.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/12983277_1595648274086942_3080568318729981533_o_zpsade48cba. jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/12983277_1595648274086942_3080568318729981533_o_zpsade48cba. jpg.html)
Luton News

cj241101

7th Sep 2016, 14:03

Anyone able to date the above photo? I'll try but I stand to be corrected as usual. The nearest Brit looks like one of the ex-Eagle machines that sat around during 1969/1970. I have G-AOVK present from March 1969 until Feb 1970 when it was scrapped and G-ARXA from March 1970 until getting scrapped Nov 1970. The length of the shadows indicates it's probably summer (in spite of the lady in what looks like a winter coat). The right edge of the picture has hangar 89 just visible which probably indicates 1970 rather than 1969 when the initial construction began. I remember the hangar was structurally complete by the summer of 1970, although not in use until October that year.

vintage ATCO

7th Sep 2016, 17:03

I think you are probably right in all your surmising. I did wonder if the 105E Anglia was mine but I see that one has hubcaps, mine didn't! :)

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2016, 19:52

http://i65.tinypic.com/14btk5g.jpg

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2016, 19:53

http://i66.tinypic.com/2h7lbfk.jpg

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2016, 20:00

http://i66.tinypic.com/5ytc87.jpg

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2016, 20:02

http://i64.tinypic.com/34ov503.jpg

Buster the Bear

7th Sep 2016, 20:06

http://i67.tinypic.com/jfvrj6.jpg

LTNman

8th Sep 2016, 15:33

I have over the years seen several British Eagle Britannia's photographed at Luton but was there ever a time that they have operated passenger services out of Luton?

compton3bravo

9th Sep 2016, 09:14

Not too sure about Eagle Brits operating from Luton but when they went bust in 1968 the winter ski 1968-69 programme for Lunch Poly and other tour operators which should have been flown from Heathrow was transferred to Luton with Monarch getting most of the business but Britannia doing some flying with their Brits as well.

rog747

9th Sep 2016, 09:27

i think Eagle may have done some ad hoc occasional flights from LTN but not many

the British Eagle failure in late 1968 lead to Lunn poly/Everyman urgently needing summer 1969 IT contracts which is why Dan Air quickly set up the LTN base with 2, then 4 1-11's to fly for them, plus G-AZED came along later making 5 units.

losing LHR as a base was a knock for the holiday company as LTN was seen as the ''poor relation'' for IT charters (no disrespect to my LTN colleagues)

Clarksons had Autair 5 1-11's and Monarch had just started up for Cosmos
Thomson SkyTours/Riviera had BY Brits and 2 B732's new in 1968
Channel 1-11's and Tridents were flying for Lyons holidays but mainly from STN but they did fly from LTN too

Dr Jekyll

9th Sep 2016, 18:27

I seem to remember sightseeing flights in a Reims Cessna 172 boarding from the spectators area. Early or mid 70s?

LTNman

10th Sep 2016, 17:54

I think I can just remember pleasure flights where passengers boarded via a gate in the fence by the corner of the spectators area. I can't remember who or where the money was collected through.

wallp

11th Sep 2016, 09:54

Like you LTNman I most definitely remember a gate in the corner of the spectators area where the pleasure flights boarded from. I'm intrigued now how it all worked - could you literally just rock up, pay your money and hop on board? How did the pleasure flights work?

Halcyon Days

11th Sep 2016, 13:39

Yes you could just turn up-Summer week ends/holidays only.
Regular aircraft was G-ASZW Cessna 172. A good friend flew them for a while-he`s now with Thomson as a senior Captain.

vintage ATCO

11th Sep 2016, 17:42

Yes, I remember the pleasure flying well. It was either Luton Flying Club or a C172 from Clacton I seem to remember. On easterlies they would often go off rwy 36 but land 06, paralleling the 08 approach (well, I did :-) ) Great times and 'proper' air traffic control not like the regimented system these days!

LTNman

11th Sep 2016, 20:18

Back in those days Luton's concrete runway was not very busy with long gaps between airliners but I can remember plenty of light aircraft and not so light occasional Twin Otters passing over FineFare (Asda) and then my house as grass runway 18 was quite popular. Was that always due to the prevailing wind? The runway seemed to get more traffic than I would have expected.

LynxDriver

12th Sep 2016, 01:31

I took several pleasure flights from Luton in 81-82. As I recall they always landed on a grass strip parallel to the terminal side of the main runway.

LTNman

12th Sep 2016, 04:30

Yep that is the grass runway in question. The other grass runway that was almost parallel to the main runway was the first to close for reasons unknown.

PAXboy

12th Sep 2016, 20:12

Buster: I didn't know that the beautiful bird had visited humble LTN?? I'm sure others here know but please tell.

Spiney Norman

12th Sep 2016, 21:44

Yep that is the grass runway in question. The other grass runway that was almost parallel to the main runway was the first to close for reasons unknown.

LTNman. I could be wrong here but I suspect that 06/24 grass was closed when the hard taxiway was built to the new hangar near the old LFC and Helitech hangars. The taxiway was partially constructed and then left moribund for some time, as I suspect you probably recall. Some of the wags in ATC used to refer to it as 'The Raisbeck memorial parkway'.

06/24 was pretty notorious for aquiring rabbit holes overnight but was also very popular with certain individuals on the morning surface inspection for producing an excellent crop of field mushrooms. I did a number of dual circuits on it with Steve Pugh and it was an excellent runway for teaching tyro pilots how to handle short field technique as it had massive run-offs at either end.

Wageslave

12th Sep 2016, 22:15

Why would a runway with massive runoffs be useful in teaching short field technique? Surely you'd need a short field for that? At least, that's how I did it.

Spiney Norman

12th Sep 2016, 22:38

Why would a runway with massive runoffs be useful in teaching short field technique? Surely you'd need a short field for that? At least, that's how I did it.

Because if you didn't end up stopping within the markers you didn't run into a fence/hedge/ditch. It was rather like the dummy carrier landing deck they had painted on the runway at Henstridge if you've ever visited there?

vintage ATCO

13th Sep 2016, 09:47

When I started in 1967 there was grass rwys 24/06 and 18/36. 24/06 certainly is not parallel to 26/08 but if we trusted the bloke in the light aircraft we would treat it so. 'Clear to land 24, if the event of a go-around remain north of the main' was the phrase used. :-)

Left circuits on 06 were interesting. Left base would cross through the final app for 08 and then final would cross over the runway again. Again, if you trusted the person then you could ask the light aircraft to remain north of the 08 approach.

All good fun. Wouldn't get away with it now!

Statute of limitations applies. ;-)

LTNman

13th Sep 2016, 10:39

I could be wrong here but I suspect that 06/24 grass was closed when the hard taxiway was built to the new hangar near the old LFC and Helitech hangars. The taxiway was partially constructed and then left moribund for some time, as I suspect you probably recall. Some of the wags in ATC used to refer to it as 'The Raisbeck memorial parkway'.
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/19880302%20-%20London%20Aviation%20Centre%20with%20G-BNNW%20C210%20I-AMCE%20PA-28RT%20G-CERT%20M20%20%20G-BNEW%20C421C%20-%20%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slid_zps19199f8f.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/19880302%20-%20London%20Aviation%20Centre%20with%20G-BNNW%20C210%20I-AMCE%20PA-28RT%20G-CERT%20M20%20%20G-BNEW%20C421C%20-%20%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slid_zps19199f8f.jpg.html)

This has got the brain matter working overtime. You must mean this hangar that was for The London Aviation Centre but apart from the hangar and the offices either side nothing else got finished. Even this hangar is gone now.
from the David Gearing collection via Luton Anorak

I can't remember the taxiway being built but then I seem to remember it had to be made wider for the cargo apron that followed years later, so it must have already have been there.

Spiney Norman

13th Sep 2016, 10:40

Spiney Norman

13th Sep 2016, 10:52

This has got the brain matter working overtime. You must mean this hangar that was for The London Aviation Centre but apart from the hangar and the offices eaither side nothing else got finished. Even this hangar is gone now. http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/19880302%20-%20London%20Aviation%20Centre%20with%20G-BNNW%20C210%20I-AMCE%20PA-28RT%20G-CERT%20M20%20%20G-BNEW%20C421C%20-%20%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slid_zpsdqas4pht.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/19880302%20-%20London%20Aviation%20Centre%20with%20G-BNNW%20C210%20I-AMCE%20PA-28RT%20G-CERT%20M20%20%20G-BNEW%20C421C%20-%20%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slid_zpsdqas4pht.jpg.html)
from the David Gearing collection via Luton Anorak

I can't remember it being built but then I seem to remember it had to be made wider for the cargo apron that followed years later, so it must have already have been there.

That's the one! If my memory is correct it was originally constructed to be used for GA by a chap named Raisbeck? (Thus the nickname).The construction included a long, narrow taxiway from the hangar along the east side of 18/36 all the way to the run-up bay spur thus crossing 24/06 grass runway. I believe construction was completed but then some issue regarding it's approval for use came up meaning that it couldn't be used by aircraft and access to the hangars on the E side of the field had to be via the gates in front of the old tower or the entry-exit point, (which was constantly either damaged and too rough for aircraft use, or waterlogged).

LTNman

13th Sep 2016, 11:08

This is the hangar complete with apron access via the traffic lights. No sign of the taxiway in this shot so it must have been well short of its destination.
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/19881207%20-%20View%20of%20the%20Flying%20Club%20area%20and%20ground%20w orks%20for%20the%20new%20freight%20terminal%20-%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slide%20414_zps8c7e500b.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/19881207%20-%20View%20of%20the%20Flying%20Club%20area%20and%20ground%20w orks%20for%20the%20new%20freight%20terminal%20-%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slide%20414_zps8c7e500b.jpg.html)
from the David Gearing collection via Luton Anorak

Spiney Norman

13th Sep 2016, 11:50

918

I managed to find this image from the UK VFR Flight guide 1997 edition showing the completed taxiway. I left Luton in 1989/1990 which was before that area became a cargo apron.

I've just included this to show how the taxiway would have made 24/06 unusable as I'd estimate it would cross the 06 threshold. On the other hand....My memory may be completely incorrect. I'm pretty sure about the taxiway being built whilst I was still working at Luton.

LTNman

13th Sep 2016, 18:16

1970 2 grass runways shown but only one listed. Note the lack of an engine run up bay as well
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/IMG_0002_zpsaf7ba76b.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/IMG_0002_zpsaf7ba76b.jpg.html)

Spiney Norman

13th Sep 2016, 21:39

That's interesting as 24/06, the one not listed is shown diagramaticaly as much longer than it was 'in my day'. I remember it definately being a licenced runway and something like 361x18 metres. It was marked with whitewashed recessed edge and threshold markings and had the runway designators on it too.

cj241101

13th Sep 2016, 22:23

Buster: I didn't know that the beautiful bird had visited humble LTN?? I'm sure others here know but please tell.
28th October 1983, ferried in from LHR then did a supersonic trip over the Bay of Biscay the next day before ferrying back to LHR in the evening.

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/G-BOAE20Luton20281083a_zpsf9qbrjp7.jpg~original
G-BOAE 28/10/83
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/G-BOAE20Luton20281083b_zpsdnxkb72r.jpg~original

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/G-BOAE20Luton20281083c_zpsisyssksv.jpg~original

The next visit was in the summer of 1986 although the exact date eludes me (was away somewhere). Lastly another paid a visit to an airport open day in January 1994, parked on the south stands.

dc9-32

14th Sep 2016, 06:26

If I remember correctly, didn't the first visit aircraft have a fuel leak which delayed the pleasure flight ? I was on duty the day it came in and I have some close up photos of my own somewhere. Maybe I'll figure out how to post them up here.

treadigraph

14th Sep 2016, 08:05

That Cessna 210 in LTNman's post 1665 pic met with a very sad end in Italy as I recall...

cj241101

14th Sep 2016, 08:25

I was on duty both days the first Concorde visited. I remember BA sent us a Concorde weight and balance manual a couple of weeks in advance – as I recall the loadsheet was too complex for the BA computerised system to handle because the C of G at take-off had to be an exact figure (45% MAC I think). This was achieved by specifying the amount of fuel in each tank, of which I believe there were 14. So I was sweating over how to complete this manual loadsheet for days beforehand. What BA forgot to tell us was that they were sending their own load controller on the day just to complete the loadsheet. Probably just as well.

xreime

14th Sep 2016, 08:32

Good morning everyone,

enjoying this beautiful thread over the past few years I am finally able to contribute with a link to a website I am following too.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12530375@N08/albums/72157673717255005
Some old photos and a few old approach plates of Luton.

Hope you enjoy it.

Best regards
xreime

LTNman

15th Sep 2016, 15:40

Thank you xreime Glad you are enjoying the thread.

This photo was taken on 21st July 1951 and came with the following comment.

NV768 Hawker Tempest V. Napier test aircraft, with annular radiator and ducted spinner. Napier had a Flight Test unit at Luton, but the Sabre-powered Tempest was probably long retired.

A picture from the 'At Home' event organised by the Luton Flying Club on July 22nd 1951

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/NV768%20_%20Tempest%20V%20Annular%20Radiator%20Trials%20Luto n%2022-7-51%20Tonyhellip%20_%20Flickr%20Gerald%20Lawrence%20via%20Ton y%20Clark_zps6bf00f7f.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/NV768%20_%20Tempest%20V%20Annular%20Radiator%20Trials%20Luto n%2022-7-51%20Tonyhellip%20_%20Flickr%20Gerald%20Lawrence%20via%20Ton y%20Clark_zps6bf00f7f.jpg.html)
Photo by the late Gerald Lawrence, digitised by Tony Clarke.

PAXboy

16th Sep 2016, 13:53

Thanks for the Concorde information. The fuel tanks are detailed here: CONCORDE SST : FUEL SYSTEMS (http://www.concordesst.com/fuelsys.html)

YVRLTN

17th Sep 2016, 01:44

Where did Sabre operate their 727's (and 732's) to? Apart from Dan-Air, were there any other regular pax 727 operators at LTN?

Cleaning up some early 90's records, I have a log of a City Airbus D228 operating for Suckling - would that be correct? HUY based IIRC.

dc9-32

17th Sep 2016, 06:25

Aviogenex used to bring their B727-200's to LTN Friday nights in the 80's if I remember correctly. TAP on Saturday's with their -100's.

Level bust

17th Sep 2016, 08:52

Condor in the late 70s, Scanair in 1978. Sterling in the 70s and 80s, and Tunisair in 1987.

cj241101

17th Sep 2016, 11:40

Condor in the late 70s, Scanair in 1978. Sterling in the 70s and 80s, and Tunisair in 1987.
Royal Air Maroc weekly on Fridays summer 1979
JAT 1986 and 1987, other years just 707'S (1979), DC-9's and 737-300's
Virgin 1988 Dublin schedules (Club Air 727-100 and -200)
Air Atlantis summer 1987
Iberia on Aviaco flights, think just Mar/Apr 1984

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/EI-BUP20Luton20010488_zps8q0v9mxx.jpg~original
EI-BUP 1/4/88 ex-Dan Air G-BAFZ, ex Cayman Airways lease, leased briefly to Virgin by Club Air pending the lease of the 727-200 EI-BVO

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/CS-TBK20Luton20020684_zpszrgdjx8s.jpg~original
CS-TBK 2/6/84

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/YU-AKH20Luton20020886_zpsz6jmilkw.jpg~original
YU-AKH 2/8/86

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/YU-AKA20Luton20260786_zpsf0hpz0ud.jpg~original
YU-AKA 26/7/86

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/colin_jones5/EC-DDV20Luton20230384_zps0cvu1ylv.jpg~original
EC-DDV 23/3/84

LTNman

18th Sep 2016, 06:25

Boeing 727's always seemed in my eyes to need more of Luton's runway to get airborne. In fact it was a Dan-Air 727 that took out some of Luton's approach lights and ILS. I seem to remember when reading the accident report that the aircraft then dropped into the valley before climbing away to head for Gatwick for a emergency landing.

It might well be the case that Luton's position on top of a hill saved the aircraft.

From the report

The aircraft appeared to get airborne just at the end of the stopway.

One observer said it seemed to him that the aircraft remained level while the runway dropped away from it. The aircraft was then seen low in the valley to the west of the airport from which position it climbed away.

The AvgasDinosaur

18th Sep 2016, 12:11

Learned contributors,
Does anyone have a copy of the report into this incident or a link to same?
I can't seem to find one.
Thanks in anticipation for your time and trouble.
Be lucky
David
The Avgas Dinosaur

LTNman

18th Sep 2016, 13:04

wallp

18th Sep 2016, 16:12

You can download the report from here https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/13-1975-boeing-727-series-46-g-baef-21-june-1974 The report also stated that the aircraft took out the ILS localiser aerial which was located 168m (550ft) from the end of the runway.

What a fascinating read, the accident report makes. I recall seeing numerous 727's take off successfully from Luton - this one certainly seems lucky to have survived.

LTNman

18th Sep 2016, 17:23

Yes indeed, I have just read the report fully again which states that approach lights 305 metres (1000ft) from the end of the runway were also damaged. The approach lights to 08 were not the full standard length due to falling ground so I would think the aircraft took out part of the first row before descending into the valley.

The report stated that the take off distance available (TODA) was approximately 178ft below the end of the runway.

compton3bravo

18th Sep 2016, 19:04

Not surprisingly, the captain did not fly any more for Dan-Air.

Rob Courtney

19th Sep 2016, 09:51

Boeing 727's always seemed in my eyes to need more of Luton's runway to get airborne. In fact it was a Dan-Air 727 that took out some of Luton's approach lights and ILS. I seem to remember when reading the accident report that the aircraft then dropped into the valley before climbing away to head for Gatwick for a emergency landing.

Didnt a DHL flight have the same issue, if I remember correctly they loaded the containers in the wrong order making the aircraft nose heavy and the only reason it got airborne was because it dropped into the valley.

no butz

19th Sep 2016, 14:34

These photos show the 727 damage. Firstly the lights at the end of the pavement, the wooden fence and then the localiser. The ground drops away sharply thereafter.
http://i68.tinypic.com/2rnty6x.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/mav3x3.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/bfryc8.jpg

LTNman

19th Sep 2016, 14:56

I have never seen those photos before. The pavement in the first photo was the end of the stopway and not the runway, the smashed light was 200ft from the end of the runway and was only 1ft above the ground.

vintage ATCO

19th Sep 2016, 18:34

I was in the approach room that morning, just finishing a night duty, when all the localiser alarms went off! The crew wouldn't have it at first that they had hit anything. The rolling of the aircraft was due to the damage to the undercarriage doors which stopped when they dropped the gear. I thought they lowered the gear quite early on but the report doesn't seem to say this.

We handed over to the oncoming watch and slid off home to bed!!

Spiney Norman

19th Sep 2016, 20:22

I was a member of the oncoming watch and went out in the Land Rover with another ATCO, (FB). In the remains of the LLZ we found and recovered the 'tail bumper' of the 727! I think we actually tried to lift it and put it in the Landie but no suprises that we couldn't lift it and it wouldn't fit. We recieved a report later, (whether true or not I'm not sure) that parts of the LLZ structure were still embedded in the aft fuselage and some had penetrated the pressure hull.

Just a note. I haven't read the AIB report since it was originally published in case my memory is faulty here.

Spiney Norman

19th Sep 2016, 20:30

Just to add....As I walked in through the door of the VCR all the night tower staff were staring towards the climb out and the remarks being made were of the nature best described as 'expletive deleted'. For a second or two I couldn't see anything then, trailing a dirty exhaust trail, the 727 appeared from behind the MacAlpine hangar slowly climbing away!

LTNman

27th Sep 2016, 07:28

With the airport's departure lounge marque in the background an interesting day for the airport but what year was the photo taken?

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/19751215%20-%20South%20side%20apron%20scene%20diversions%20PH-DEF%20Dc-8%20KLM%20OO-SDJ%20B737%20Sabena%20and%20BA%20Trident_zps3cbwna44.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/19751215%20-%20South%20side%20apron%20scene%20diversions%20PH-DEF%20Dc-8%20KLM%20OO-SDJ%20B737%20Sabena%20and%20BA%20Trident_zps3cbwna44.jpg.htm l)
Probably from the Dave Gearing collection

OUAQUKGF Ops

27th Sep 2016, 08:45

A click on the photo shows 19751215 Diversions. No Court Line Aircraft or Court Line ground equipment visible.

22/04

27th Sep 2016, 09:11

Was OY-APU the previous G-BBZG of Monarch? CAA show de-reg date as 5.12.75 so that is additional evidence

PAXboy

27th Sep 2016, 12:37

What type is the KLM?

cj241101

27th Sep 2016, 12:44

A click on the photo shows 19751215 Diversions. No Court Line Aircraft or Court Line ground equipment visible.
15/12/75 is correct. From memory, the quoted number of diversions for the day was 47, beating the previous highest which I believe was 34 on 4/1/69. A few bizjets and other GA aircraft were probably included in this figure. I have a list of most of them if anyone is interested. I believe Heathrow was fogbound all day, with LTN staying 7-10km, which didn't happen too often. I suspect the photo was taken in the morning as the KLM DC-8-63 wasn't there when I visited early afternoon. The Germanair 1-11 was a regular on Mondays and Fridays.

Yes, G-BBZG became OY-APU with Maersk Air.

LTNman

27th Sep 2016, 13:00

Pointing nose out is a BEA Trident. I thought they had autoland abilities.

PAXboy

27th Sep 2016, 13:01

Thanks, I was confused by the KLM type, as the angle of the picture hides the #3 engine neatly behind the #4.

22/04

27th Sep 2016, 13:04

I assume what is now mid-term was car park then. But look how empty it is? This is when the loss of Court Line and the highly seasonal nature of traffic meant the airport would I guess be not very in busy in the winter. What is the 732 in front of Hanger 89?

cj241101

27th Sep 2016, 13:04

With the airport's departure lounge marque in the background an interesting day for the airport but what year was the photo taken?
I seem to remember the marquee's days were numbered, with a more permanent extension to the departure lounge replacing it early in 1976.

cj241101

27th Sep 2016, 13:05

I assume what is now mid-term was car park then. But look how empty it is? This is when the loss of Court Line and the highly seasonal nature of traffic meant the airport would I guess be very in busy in the winter. What is the 732 in front of Hanger 89?
VR-BEH the Niarchos exec one which was maintained by Britannia. Replaced by VR-BEG in 1980.

cj241101

27th Sep 2016, 13:07

Pointing nose out is a BEA Trident. I thought they had autoland abilities.
At a guess either the autoland was inop or one of the crew wasn't currently trained for autoland. Having just typed this, a quick look in the anorak log has 15 Tridents diverted in total so maybe there was another reason. I don't know the landing capabilities of the autoland equipped Tridents but I doubt it was better than the current ILS Cat 3A limit of 200m RVR touchdown, so perhaps the LHR vis was below that.

vintage ATCO

27th Sep 2016, 13:21

A number of ducks have to be in a row for autoland, or Cat IIIA/B as we now call it. Both crew qualified and current, aircraft systems on line, all required ground equipment and lighting serviceable. Take any one duck out and it cannot happen. Not sure of the state of play of Heathrow's kit back in 1975.

Incidentally, Luton was the first airport where the technical services were not operated by NATS to go CAT III in 1989 or 90. We sweated blood.

Edit: cj beat me to it. Wiki suggests the Trident fleet went from Cat IIIA to IIIB in 1975 so we are talking of 75m RVR touchdown.

dixi188

27th Sep 2016, 13:26

For the Trident I think all three flight crew would have to be Cat III qualified.

LTNman

27th Sep 2016, 14:35

Were all the Trident variants autoland capable or just the later types?

Allan Lupton

27th Sep 2016, 16:05

Were all the Trident variants autoland capable or just the later types?
Since all the work was done on Trident 1 aeroplanes and it was certificated before the other variants entered service it is fair to say that all Trident marks could have been fitted with autoland. Not all examples were, of course, and I'd say it was not Cat IIIC on all those that had autoland.
Here's the famous 1968 film with Jimmy Phillips talking to the camera while the aeroplane gets on with a landing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ilhtHLqOI

Tempsford

27th Sep 2016, 17:23

OY-APU leased to Monarch from Maersk as G-BBZG from 02-02-74 to 12-12-75. The aircraft then returned to Maersk. That would tally with the December 75 date for the photo.
Temps.

compton3bravo

27th Sep 2016, 19:25

Looks like a SABENA 737-200 pointed out also.

LTNman

28th Sep 2016, 19:48

Here is another photo taken on the same day. Noted is another DC8 performing short haul duties but this one seems shorter than the KML example on the last page. The small size might be an optical illusion due to what seems like large well spaced windows so there is less of them compared to the 737 behind it. I always assumed the DC8 was built for long haul.

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/19751215%20-%20North%20side%20apron%20full%20of%20diversions%20-%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slide%20103_zps6pnifwju.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/19751215%20-%20North%20side%20apron%20full%20of%20diversions%20-%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slide%20103_zps6pnifwju.jpg.html)
David Gearing collection

DaveReidUK

28th Sep 2016, 20:22

Noted is another DC8 performing short haul duties but this one seems shorter than the KML example on the last page. The small size might be an optical illusion due to what seems like large well spaced windows so there is less of them compared to the 737 behind it. I always assumed the DC8 was built for long haul.

Alitalia's DC-8s were mostly Series 40 (as is the one on the photo).

So were most of KLMs. but the one in the earlier photo is a Series 63, stretched by nearly 40 feet compared to the Series 40.

cj241101

28th Sep 2016, 20:47

Alitalia's DC-8s were mostly Series 40 (as is the one on the photo).

.
The DC-8-40's were powered by the Rolls Royce Conway engines, which links nicely with the aircraft climbing away in the background with the same powerplant - a VC-10 of the RAF, probably operating a trooping flight.

KLM DC-8's were 30, 50 and 63 series. Only Air Canada and Canadian Pacific bought the 40 series apart from Alitalia, with the US carriers remaining faithful to the P&W engines.

DaveReidUK

28th Sep 2016, 22:08

KLM DC-8's were 30, 50 and 63 series. Only Air Canada and Canadian Pacific bought the 40 series apart from Alitalia, with the US carriers remaining faithful to the P&W engines.

You're right, my mistake, KLM had the 30 and 50 whereas Alitalia had the 40 (all dimensionally identical).

cj241101

28th Sep 2016, 22:16

OY-APU leased to Monarch from Maersk as G-BBZG from 02-02-74 to 12-12-75. The aircraft then returned to Maersk. That would tally with the December 75 date for the photo.
Temps.
If you zoom in on the registration in the picture the original identity N736US can be read indicating its Northwest Orient ancestry.

dixi188

29th Sep 2016, 05:30

As it is a diversion day, would the VC-10 be BA?
Note the height of the VC-10. Not many aircraft would be that high so soon, very good short field performance when on a light weight positioning flight to Heathrow.

Tempsford

29th Sep 2016, 07:45

Up on the Ponderosa there is G-BCBA B720-023B in Invicta colors. This a/c went to Air Nuigini in Feb 16. It returned to the UK in 1977 and then operated for Monarch.

Falcon666

29th Sep 2016, 08:32

What airline is the one behind the BMA viscount with the tail sticking out?
Looks like a dc-9
Great to see the old Aer Lingus decals or as the would say now Retro!!

dixi188

29th Sep 2016, 09:46

I make the line of aircraft:-

DC-8 Alitalia
B737 Aer Lingus
Trident BA
B737 Aer Lingus
Viscount BA
DC-9 Alitalia
Trident BA
BAC 1-11 BA
B720 Invicta
BAC 1-11 unknown

Also, an Aero Commander, something small and a Cessna twin on the left.

compton3bravo

29th Sep 2016, 13:18

I would hazard a guess the 1-11 is Monarch with the yellow and black cheatlines with monarch titling all in lower case on that tailplane. I

Spiney Norman

29th Sep 2016, 13:22

I believe the furthest BAC111 may be a Monarch aircraft.

Oops too late. Compton spotted it already!

LTNman

1st Oct 2016, 18:18

This is the last of the photos taken on 15 December 1995
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u540/nospamuk/19751215%20-%20Night%20shot%20of%20apron%20with%20diversions%20-%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slide%2093_zpsrorp3atx.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk/media/19751215%20-%20Night%20shot%20of%20apron%20with%20diversions%20-%20Dave%20Gearing%20Collection%20-%20Slide%2093_zpsrorp3atx.jpg.html)
David Gearing collection

wallp

2nd Oct 2016, 14:46

1995? Presume 1975?

LTNman

2nd Oct 2016, 15:14

Well spotted young man! 1975

cj241101

6th Oct 2016, 15:05

Don't know if anyone can help with this one. Back in 1968 when I bought my first airband radio, there were still a few airlines using the aircraft registration as the ATC callsign as opposed to the flight number. This seemed to be a mainly British phenomenon, with the only overseas carrier I remember using registrations being Sabena, which they were still doing until at least 1977. UK airlines still using registrations for ATC included, as I recall B.E.A., British Midland and British United. Monarch used flight numbers from day 1 (5th April 1968). B.O.A.C., British Eagle, Laker and Caledonian were using flight numbers. Not sure about Britannia, Channel, Invicta, Cambrian, BKS and Dan Air. The introduction of computerised systems and repetitive flight plans (RPL's) meant most carriers moved to using the flight number for ATC during the 1970's. It no doubt helped with navigation charges as well.

What I am after is further info as to other carriers who used registrations and when they switched to using flight numbers. I remember Autair used flight numbers when they switched their scheduled flights to LHR in 1969 but I think they used registrations prior to that. Did Court Line use registrations in their early days? Any info welcome.

Also can anyone confirm (or otherwise) that Sudflug who used the airport briefly during summer 1967 used the callsign "Bluebird"?

Level bust

6th Oct 2016, 15:28

Court Line did indeed use registrations over the radio.

cj241101

6th Oct 2016, 20:23

Court Line did indeed use registrations over the radio.
Thanks Level Bust. I might have answered my own question if I'd perused some of my old scribblings. One sultry, summers evening in 1970 (1st June to be precise) I was at home and tuned in Luton Tower (120.2 back then) just in time to hear "Lima Oscar Romeo, cleared for take off runway 08" followed by "Court Line Mike Kilo, after the departing aircraft, a Charlie Four Six, cleared to enter, backtrack and line up runway 08". It took about 15 seconds for the bellow of the 2 P&W radial engines to reach me (home was 3 miles away) as the Fred Olsen Curtiss C-46 (LN-FOR) applied take off power. A scarce aircraft type in Europe at the best of times which I never managed to see.

22/04

7th Oct 2016, 08:06

Court Line did use registrations except for a short period in I think 1970 ( not sure why) - remember Court Line 373 being G-AWBL (recognisable by no "beep" at the end of the transmission unlike the -500s). Dan- Air were registrations (not sure when they changed- 1974 ish) and Britannia used Registrations until around 1973- they changed for some reason during a series of French ATC strikes - nothing changes!). Channel were always registrations- Midland were using registrations in 1970 and I guess they also changed in the early 70s. In 1968 Air France and BEA were using reg callsigns (Still Bealine Papa India at the sad time of the Staines crash). Pan Am used reg callsigns for charters (remember Clipper 766?) A lot of supplemental US reg callsigns I think (Saturn, Capitol etc.). BAF were reg.callsigns until T D Keegan took them over in 1972.

Pretty certain Condor 727s came in on Sunday with reg call signs as did TAROM IL-18s. The real problem for us spotters were those that didn't - did you ever find yourself at LTN in the middle of the night to "bag" an ATI DC9?

cj241101

7th Oct 2016, 21:39

did you ever find yourself at LTN in the middle of the night to "bag" an ATI DC9?
Thanks 22/4, that's a big help. And, er, yes to the above, summer '75 and summer '76. At least the speccies car park was "free" that time of night....Seem to remember ATI used "ATI" as their callsign, pronouncing it "arti".

Luton Anorak

8th Oct 2016, 17:00

I think I can just remember pleasure flights where passengers boarded via a gate in the fence by the corner of the spectators area. I can't remember who or where the money was collected through.
Back in September there was a lot of posts regarding the Pleasure Flights that operated from the spectators area - here is a photo of the corner where they operated from (a bit blurred though) - the hut is visible where you could pay and then wait for your ride - it was taken sometime in the early 70's as you can just make out a Court Line (yellow) BAC1-11 landing in the background.

boeing_eng

9th Oct 2016, 12:17

Condor & Bavaria Germanair were still using registrations as call-signs as late as 1977

ZeBedie

10th Oct 2016, 21:56

Luton Anorak

10th Oct 2016, 22:49

Those at Luton in the 70's will well remember a tragic collision between an Aztec and a departing 1-11.

This thread has reminded me that as a plane spotting kid, presumably not that long after the accident, I walked into a hangar and amongst the other aircraft was the cabriolet PA-23, sat there as though it was perfectly normal to leave the wreckage from a fatal accident in a semi public place. What were they thinking of!
This happened on the 18th April 1974 - the McAlpine Aztec G-AYDE was hit by Court Line BAC1-11 G-AXMJ - the Aztec was eventually placed in the McAlpine hangar for a while - I noted it in there 31st May 1974 under covers - it was eventually purchased by Luton Flying Club Ltd for spares.

ZeBedie

11th Oct 2016, 20:39

It wasn't under covers when I saw it. I'm not sure, but I don't think it was the McAlpine hangar - spotters didn't generally get in there.

22/04

11th Oct 2016, 22:07

22/04

11th Oct 2016, 22:19

Now here's another challenge along the lines of that about callsigns.

When I first became interested in Luton in 1968 IIRC the frequencies were as follows;

APP 129.55 ( no change there - if it does change I think it's time for the Ravens to leave the Tower ( London not Luton). But when was this introduced and what were frequencies before my time

RAD 127.3 123.55 (latter rarely used).

TWR 120.2.

Around 1970 we lost 123.55 and gained 128.75 which IIRC was the initial GND frequency. Or was 123.55 used briefly before that for GND.

Then we settled to GND 121.75 TWR 120.2, RAD 127.3, APP/DIR 128.75 APP 129.55 I think- 127.3 was used for SRAs until quite late on.

At some stage the original Radar was replaced by the one on the south side of the runway - Plessey units I think - was the first one a 424- whatever it was it responsible for horrible whine on 127.3.

The TWR became 119.925 (not sure about that)

Then we settled to what we have today, with TWR becoming 132.55 and 127.3 being lost. At some stage 126.725 was introduced as a back up TWR frequency.

I think we still have or did have a delivery frequency - but has this ever been used.

Vintage ATCO will be able to shed some light on this- corrections and dates would be useful

Allan Lupton

11th Oct 2016, 23:16

I think people were a little less sensitive in days of yor - maybe WWII with its losses were fresh in the mind. Remember at Farnboro' in 50s when John Derry was killed Neville Duke immediately took the Hunter up - and the show went on despite crowd casualties. - similarly it went on when the Atlantique crashed in '68. Stiff upper lip.No judgement- just fact.
Sorry about this thread drift, but I think the Farnborough cases you cite were not insensitivity but were deliberately done as a way to keep the crowd there, as otherwise their mass exodus would have blocked all the access roads which needed to be kept clear for the ambulances.
Similarly at Le Mans in 1955 the race continued to its scheduled end.

vintage ATCO

12th Oct 2016, 07:29

When I started in 1967 freqs were App 129.55 Dir 123.55 Rad 127.3 Twr 120.2. I think prior to 129.55 App was 130.35. Not sure.

Radar was a Plessey ACR424 sited where the Engine Run Bay is now but this was replaced late 60s by a Plessey ACR430 which was sited on 'the island'. The Plessey AR15 was purchased early 70s around the time Court Line went bust. If they could have cancelled it I am sure they would. Following a couple of nasty zone infringements we had a temporary Cossor 787, antenna mounted on a truck, displays remoted back to the tower, until the AR15 was ready.

I validated on the 430, 787 and AR15. The 430 was kept going to provide half mile talkdown capability before ILS was installed on rwy 08, the AR15 could only go to 2 miles. The 430 radar head caught fire and melted. I did over 500 half mile talkdowns on the 430.

When we decided to needed a GMC we temporaily used 123.55 ("Luton Director on the Ground" as the then SATCO called it). Then we got 121.75. Can't remember when now the tower freq changed to 132.55 or why we had to lose 120.2. It was also used by Shannon and Lille.

When we got controlled airspace we also had a UHF frequency 378.9 (I think).

Antek

12th Oct 2016, 08:00

500 half-mile talk downs on the AR15...?

"Hello, SRG?"

vintage ATCO

12th Oct 2016, 08:43

Whoops! :O

It was looked at at some time but came to nothing.

Offchocks

12th Oct 2016, 20:07

The 430 was kept going to provide half mile talkdown capability before ILS was installed on rwy 08

I have just started to feel old, there was no 08 ILS when I was based at Luton with Monarch!:(

cj241101

12th Oct 2016, 20:49

RAD 127.3 123.55 (latter rarely used).

TWR 120.2.

Around 1970 we lost 123.55 and gained 128.75 which IIRC was the initial GND frequency. Or was 123.55 used briefly before that for GND.

Then we settled to GND 121.75 TWR 120.2, RAD 127.3, APP/DIR 128.75 APP 129.55 I think- 127.3 was used for SRAs until quite late on.

The TWR became 119.925 (not sure about that)

I think we still have or did have a delivery frequency - but has this ever been used.

Pretty sure 123.55 was the original ground frequency. Not sure about the timing of the switch to 121.75.

Think the TWR was 119.975 for a while after 120.2 and before 132.55.

Yes we have delivery on 121.885, been in use this summer during the morning rush.

cj241101

12th Oct 2016, 21:03

When I started in 1967 freqs were App 129.55 Dir 123.55 Rad 127.3 Twr 120.2. I think prior to 129.55 App was 130.35. Not sure.
.
Thanks vintage ATCO, you've just answered a question I haven't asked yet! My original (Sky Bandit) airband radio came with a list of UK airport frequencies when I bought it at the beginning of 1968. I thought my memory might have been at fault but I have recollections of it giving LTN APP as 130.35 back then. It had already changed to 129.55 by the time I got the radio. Your post has just confirmed this for me.

cj241101

12th Oct 2016, 21:13

there was no 08 ILS when I was based at Luton with Monarch!:(
I stand to be corrected, but I think the 08 ILS was installed in 1987. Touchdown RVR minima was 700m as opposed to 550m on 26 - higher I believe due to fewer approach lights because of the terrain.

One winters night in the late 80's I remember the last Ryanair Dublin flight was on approach to 08. Aircraft was a 1-11 500 crewed by Tarom pilots. 5 miles out and the touchdown RVR was 800m. Shortly afterwards the tower controller passed him an RVR of 400m. No reply from the aircraft. 2 miles out and the RVR had dropped to 200m. "Ryanair 208 RVR now 200 metres, confirm your intentions. Ryanair 208, please acknowledge". Still no response. Then there was an almighty roar of the thrust reversers and "ve are on ground" from the pilot.
They probably didn't break any rules as I believe they were entitled to continue down to decision height (200ft) if the RVR dropped below minima less then 5 miles out. Did they see the lights at 200ft? Maybe....

Offchocks

13th Oct 2016, 02:36

cj241101 You are probably correct, 1987 was the year I left Monarch for sunnier climes. The radar approaches on 08 with the BAC1-11 and 737 were always fun! :)

HershamBoys

13th Oct 2016, 15:31

Aaah...the joys of doing offset 2 mile SRAs on 08 to avoid Caddington. Or twiddling the screwdriver to set up the 430 for 1/2 milers. Also, which muppet decided to check the 430 at the start of the afternoon shift, in blissful ignorance that Tels were crawling all over the head off a step ladder ? Oh yeah...sorry boys. We had a cardboard 'DO NOT TURN ON' plate to put in front of the controls made up by teatime.

HB

vintage ATCO

13th Oct 2016, 16:58

The 430 had two beams, a co-secant squared beam for surveillance, which wasn’t desperately good, and a pencil beam for the talk downs. You had a radar head tilt switch and you needed to get the beam up high during the approach to see the blip through the returns of the ridge 1.5nm from touchdown then quickly down to retain radar contact until termination at 0.5nm.

The radar head had two rotation speeds, 20 and 40 rpm although we never used it had 40rpm as we always thought the radar head would fall of its perch. The rotation switch had three positions up 20, down 40 and centre OFF and the switch was next to the radar head tilt switch.

I had the habit of resting the ball of my thumb on a ridge of metal on the centre console so I could operate the radar tilt switch with a finger. On one occasion the ball of my thumb caught the rotation switched and turned it off!! Radar service was terminated! Everyone go around.

Even banging the rotation immediately on again still required the picture to align which took several minutes, even with the first align button subsequently installed.

Happy days!

Spiney Norman

14th Oct 2016, 06:06

Ah! The North orientation marker. I well remember a night watch with CJF. The weather was heavy rain with low cloud and a strong easterly wind. I was doing the sequencing on the AR15 and Colin was doing the SRAs on the 430. The temperature began to drop and slowly, the heavy rain turned to snow with a consequent drop in visibility. There were several aircraft inbound and we seemed well set. Suddenly there was a bang as the Xpelair ventilation fan flaps slammed shut and a flash and whine as everything wound down. Within seconds the power reset and everything rapidly recovered except for the 430 which, with a loud clicking, started to automatically 'North align'. The aircraft on final on the SRA was sent around but was there time to get the 430 set for the next one? Yes! Just. Then, at around 2nm from touchdown....Bang! Another mains spike...Wind down, wind up...Another North align and set up...Go around! This repeated regularly about every 10 minutes or less until all the aircraft on approach had been forced into a diversion decision.

Personally, I liked doing SRAs. They really were like Marmite. Some ATCOs enjoyed them, others really didn't. Also, I really can't imagine ATCOs being allowed to adjust a radar in the way we were with the 430 in those days. When I subsequently went to work for NATS the Tels guys were amazed we were allowed to change the ILS around! However, as in later Luton days there were no Tels engineers on duty at night there was little choice in the matter.

HershamBoys

14th Oct 2016, 19:29

Spiney Norman

14th Oct 2016, 21:03

I remember the 1/2 mile SRA on my Approach Radar validation. I did it on 'Mad Alfonse', the F- twin which used to visit daily during the 1980s. I suspect he hadn't a clue what was going on, because he obviously flew the LOC. I looked at the Trapper, and at the Training Officer, we all smirked, and nothing more was said.....

I suspect that would be F-BPFN from LFPN? You may remember him sliding off the runway in snowy conditions one day? The Fire team got Britannia to loan them a rather ricketty mobile crane to assist the removal of the aircraft. As the crane lifted the Baron, the jib overload hooter was chirping sporadically showing it was right on the lift limit. Suddenly 'Alfonse' lept on to the wing shouting (in an Allo Allo accent), "Hey! Ma fags and ma money"! The jib horn went crazy and the Firemen grappled him off fearing the crane was about to be toppled over! The aircraft then ended up on the grass near the Luton Flight Centre for a while. I believe more damage was done in the lift and move than was done when it ran off the runway.

P.S. I can't remember why the Baron ran off the runway but believe it may have been an undercarriage failure of the port main?