LUTON History and Nostalgia [Archive] - Page 10

LTNman

16th Jun 2017, 08:52

The window is further over to the right so would not appear in the York photo but that photo does show a vertical length of wood which appears in both photos in the same location.

Also looking at the photos below shows what would appear to be Luton's first terminal which is raised off the ground in both photos. When compared to the middle photo the terminal is between two hangars and is on the apron.

This is confirmed in the bottom photo which show no terminal by the farmhouse.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/first%20terminal_zpsjeaubiov.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/first%20terminal_zpsjeaubiov.jpg.html)

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/12823523_1571596936492076_89736665580282607_o_zpsfizqz6zl.jp g (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/12823523_1571596936492076_89736665580282607_o_zpsfizqz6zl.jp g.html)

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/1949%20Luton%20Airport%203%20Vintage%20ATCO_zpsvwiz5c4y.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/1949%20Luton%20Airport%203%20Vintage%20ATCO_zpsvwiz5c4y.jpg. html)

vintage ATCO

16th Jun 2017, 16:25

Oh, awright! I give in :)

Your bottom pic is from 1949, here's one from 1959

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/stevelevien/PPRuNe%20Pics/1959%20Luton%20Airport.jpg

The wooden terminal that was in front of the old control tower, the infamous Building 50, was built around 1962.

LGS6753

16th Jun 2017, 19:24

...and not a barbed wire fence to be seen.

LTNman

16th Jun 2017, 20:17

Got to confess I had no idea a terminal was ever located on the apron until I went through my entire photo collection looking for photos of huts around the airport. I guess the word terminal is not really an accurate description but I don't know what else to call it unless I stick to the word hut.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/1952_zpsjjdnnpzl.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/1952_zpsjjdnnpzl.jpg.html)

RuthAS

LTNman

17th Jun 2017, 04:53

The colour photo taken in 1959 shows McAlpine's first hangar. The company must the airports oldest customer. In later life it became Magec Aviation before becoming Signature.

McAlpine ops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cS9sZlOCos

noflynomore

17th Jun 2017, 09:40

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/first%20terminal_zpsjeaubiov.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/first%20terminal_zpsjeaubiov.jpg.html)

I sit reading this in an almost identical building. 2x4 frames, weatherboard exterior and in my case lined with 1/2 inch fibreboard. The building is bolted together in sections as shown in the pic.
Does anyone know the provenance of these buildings? Family folklore has it as a WW1 flatpack building - one of the first - intended for use behind the lines. It certainly arrived here between the wars.
Does Prune run to ancient wooden buildings experts?

OUAQUKGF Ops

17th Jun 2017, 18:15

Well that must be you in the photograph then with your case and all. Rather a long wait Old Boy. Did you miss the last bus or was your wife picking you up?

OUAQUKGF Ops

17th Jun 2017, 18:40

By the way those photos of Eagle Aviation Yorks at Luton are probably prior to 1953 when the airline changed its name to Eagle Airways. The photo of G-AMGK at Luton is dated by one source to 1952. Eagle Aviation were operating many trooping flights with Yorks at this time.

LTNman

18th Jun 2017, 08:29

Same building but from the opposite side looking east. Note the Eagle Aviation sign over the door. Hard to date when the building was put up. It appears in photos taken in 1948 but already looks run down in this photo.

Anyone know the aircraft type being worked on.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/EagleAviationCliffMinney_zpsltcrflmr.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/EagleAviationCliffMinney_zpsltcrflmr.jpg.html)
Cliff Minney

VictorGolf

18th Jun 2017, 09:23

Tipsy Trainer? Lovely name for an aeroplane.

treadigraph

18th Jun 2017, 09:40

Yep, Tipsy Trainer.

vintage ATCO

18th Jun 2017, 11:46

Yes, Tipsy Trainer. We've got one at Old Warden in the private hangars, G-AISA.

Crikey, I knew Cliff Minney.

LTNman

18th Jun 2017, 13:11

Thanks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipsy_B

The AvgasDinosaur

22nd Jun 2017, 10:56

22/04

22nd Jun 2017, 12:33

cj241101

22nd Jun 2017, 12:34

Sorry folks,
Having total brain fade here at the moment.
What were the main runway headings at luton in the early 1970s. When you taxied out from the apron to turn left and backtrack for take off what was that holding point called ?
Thanks in anticipation of your time and trouble,
Be lucky
David
I stand to be corrected but I believe the main runway has always been 08/26. If you are looking for the exact runway magnetic headings, I can only go back to the late 90's when it was 079º/259º. Current approach charts show the runway magnetic heading is now 075º/255º, so the magnetic north pole only needs to move a fraction further east and we will have a runway 07/25.

As for the holding point, what is now Charlie One would have been the holding point for a runway 26 departure before taxiway Alpha was extended to its current location in 1998. Not sure if it was actually called Alpha One or just plain Alpha originally.

Level bust

22nd Jun 2017, 17:14

The runway designators are due to change in the near future to 25/07.

The AvgasDinosaur

22nd Jun 2017, 17:27

Holding points were Alpha and Bravo on the eastern taxiway (Alpha just short of the runway) and Charlie and Delta on the western one, with Delta just short of the runway. I cannot remember if there were additional holding points to describe the compass swing bay or whether the Run up bay off the eastern one were there by the 1970s but Vintage ATCO would know. There was a lead off just short of the taxiway intersection on to the grass. Runways were 26 and 08 (7054 feet) as now, with 18/36 grass (2800 feet) and 06/24 grass (2000 feet)
My memory is fading fast but I think I recall one major taxiway from the apron out to the runway almost at the mid point and nearly at a right angle, up past the spotters area in the corner on your left when taxying out?
I think ??
Be lucky
David

LTNman

22nd Jun 2017, 17:49

Eventually took over by Ryanair

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/IMG_zpsjrgp7l3h.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/IMG_zpsjrgp7l3h.jpg.html)

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/IMG_0001_zpslookrseh.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/IMG_0001_zpslookrseh.jpg.html)

lotus1

22nd Jun 2017, 18:49

Wasn't there a problem with them with BAF over the lease of the viscount it was in the press it sat at Luton for a while in a dark blue scheme then came a long the 1 11

LTNman

23rd Jun 2017, 09:14

I have always wondered if the angle of the publicity photo was to hide the fact that the aircraft was a propeller aircraft when in those days a propeller aircraft was seen as dated.

OpsSix

24th Jun 2017, 06:11

LTNman

24th Jun 2017, 06:45

Forgot all about Lynton. Can't remember how long they were around but nor can I remember how long Magec were around either.

LTNman

25th Jun 2017, 05:52

Not one of the better ideas thought up at Luton. In 1985 someone thought it would be a good idea to block pave the runway turning circle. As the second advert stated it was the first application of its kind in the aviation world. It was also probably the last as the bricks became unseated due to jet blast and damaged an aircraft.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/IMG_0001_zps2h47ifpg.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/IMG_0001_zps2h47ifpg.jpg.html)

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w504/nospamuk1/IMG_0003_zps3jibrzi3.jpg (http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/nospamuk1/media/IMG_0003_zps3jibrzi3.jpg.html)

Level bust

25th Jun 2017, 10:09

The bricks were removed by a Monarch Boeing 737-300 that continued onto Spain (or somewhere similar) without being aware of what had happened!

Falcon666

25th Jun 2017, 11:38

If ever there was a reason that councils shouldn't run a airport--- that was it.
From the photo it looks like the 08 turning circle , did they only do one end?
Wasn't it a Monarch 757 and it did quite a bit of damage.
Wonder how long it took and how much it cost the council!

dixi188

25th Jun 2017, 11:41

IIRC the 737 had significant damage to the horizontal stab., including bricks inside, and had to be repaired down route.

Level bust

25th Jun 2017, 12:00

Both turning circles were done and it was the 26 turning circle thats was blown away by the 737. I seem to recall one of the main reasons was the 737-300 having low slung engines which caused the bricks to vibrate before flying up.

vulcanite

25th Jun 2017, 15:36

I was a flying instructor at Luton Flight Training at the time, and the blockwork had LIA (Luton International Airport) inset in a darker colour. We all wondered for whose benefit this was, as the only people that would ever see it were pilots, and one presumes they all knew they were just about to caress Luton's tarmac, and not someone elses. The blockwork was removed very shortly thereafter and was dumped behind the fire station, and free to take away. At least one person I know retrieved enough of them to re-pave his driveway - he was a student pilot at LFT.
IIRC, Monarch tried to sue the council, but were shown the small print on the conditions and terms of use of the airport, which basically said tough luck. Probably apocryphal though.

Falcon666

25th Jun 2017, 16:57

Ah yeah, the Monarch 757 I was thinking of was the one that kept losing one engine on t/o when the runway was being resurfaced and it hit the chamfered edge left overnight by the resurfacing team.
Think it was G-MONB or D.
IIRC it ended up in the Hangar for quite a while while they tried to find the problem.
Apologies if this has been previously discussed.

ericlday

25th Jun 2017, 17:33

Yes I was delayed two nights in Tenerife courtesy of Monarch but not complaining as we were watered and fed and overnight accommodation provided.

Raymond Dome

25th Jun 2017, 17:34

Monarch actually did sue the airport over the 737 bricks incident but lost the case as the judge determined that the level of negligence was not sufficient to override the "use is at your own risk" clause in the airport's contract. This despite the fact that the airport had previously been warned by an expert in writing that this situation could occur. Funny thing at times, the law.
The 757 that had engine failures when it ran over the chamfered edge of the runway resurfacing was indeed hangared for investigation when it was found that a broken spring (inside IIRC the engine start switch) was being thrown about by the shock of the impact with the tarmac edge and was short circuiting electrical terminals which caused the engine to shut down. A huge amount of head scratching took place before this was found though!

vintage ATCO

25th Jun 2017, 20:41

I was first on the scene when the B737 paver block incident occurred and tried to get the various ATC agencies to inform he pilot. The aircraft by now was working the French and for whatever reason the notification did not get through.

The pavers were an idea of one of the Council's civil engineers and was initially employed on the apron stands because of the damaged being caused by fuel spills. The runway turning circles were very prone to this because of the 180deg turns that had to made by aircraft when fuel was vented from the wings especially if heavily fuelled (BAC1-11 were very prone to this). A lot of consultation was carried out and there was interest from other parties including the CAA and RAF. At one time the RAF wanted to bring a Harrier to test it but this never occurred.

In the days prior to the incident there was persistent heavy rain and the sand under the paver blocks became saturated although this was not known at the time. The blocks were laid by a German company using a machine that could lay a square metre of pre-linked pavers at a time; the pavers were not cemented down although they were finished with a form of 'grout'.

The incident aircraft was a B737-300 with low under slung engines and Mr Bernoulli took a hand in matters. Low pressure was caused under the engines and as the aircraft rolled, the upwards bulge of the pavers was disrupted by the thrust from the engines which immediate caused them to be blown backwards. It was the following aircraft, a HS125 who told ATC 'there are one or two blocks missing from the turning circle'. One or two was actually several hundred.

When I arrived on scene there was one solitary paver block ahead of the damage, the rest were behind. This immediately suggested to me that it must have hit the airframe therefore my concern of getting a message to the pilot. I do not believe that any blocks were embedded in the airframe although it has been many years since I have read any of the paperwork involved with the case.

I became involved in the legal action following the case which I will not comment upon except to say the reasons the case was dropped (I don't think it was thrown out by the judges) were long and varied.

The airport was complimented on its very prompt and honest reporting of the incident. The turning circles were taken out of use and resurfaced with tarmac.

IcePack

26th Jun 2017, 10:04

I know the crew concerned. Aircraft handling was normal so when the severe damage was discovered on walk round it was a big surprise. I believe there were quite a few pictures taken, some of which got printed by the press.
Whilst they were re-building the turning circles it was a right P in the A as 73 could not make Cairo in one. This meant a tech stop & discretion every time making a long night of it.

EGGW

26th Jun 2017, 11:32

Here you go chaps.

Apologies to whoever took these, found them some where years back.

EGGW.

LTNman

26th Jun 2017, 11:51

Wow what a set of photos!!!. I thought it was just a few bricks that got blown away and maybe just 1 brick that hit the aircraft but those photos put the incident on a whole new level. :eek:

Blacksheep

26th Jun 2017, 12:16

At one time the RAF wanted to bring a Harrier to test it but this never occurred.Holy Cow! With a 737 kicking up all those bricks, imagine a Harrier in the hover. That would have been quite a sight! :eek: :eek: :uhoh:

vintage ATCO

26th Jun 2017, 12:42

I saw one pic which showed a paver block shaped dent in the leading edge of the horizontal stab. Presumably this was the single block I saw ahead of the disruption.

Raymond Dome

26th Jun 2017, 15:28

The case certainly did go to court, in 1996. Mr Justice Clarke was the judge. I was there and as it's the only time I have ever been involved in a trial, I am not likely to have misremembered. The case foundered roughly for the reasons given above, although granted the legal arguments involved were considerably more complex. Documentation of the trial is still available online if anyone is interested, although sadly it looks as though you have to pay for it.

DaveReidUK

26th Jun 2017, 15:47

Documentation of the trial is still available online if anyone is interested, although sadly it looks as though you have to pay for it.

There are some references to the 1996 judgement in the Encyclopedia of International Aviation Law Volume 3 (Page 833 on), which can be Googled and previewed for free.

vintage ATCO

26th Jun 2017, 16:45

Thanks, Raymond Dome, clearly my recollection is clouded by time. I was grateful I never had to go to court but I was summoned to a barrister's chambers in Lincoln Inn Fields to provide information. No tea or biccies either.

oldandbald

26th Jun 2017, 17:53

Do any recall an incident late 70s early 80s when a Monarch 720 damaged the runway surface on Take-Off. It was a damp foggy morning and during the night resurfacing work had been carried out leaving a slight ramp about half way down across the runway, higher surface being east of the mid-point. Monarch 720 backtracked and departed runway 26, shortly afterwards a light twin on approach to 26 carried out a missed approach and diverted (thankfully ) The AFS crewman carrying out human observer RVR reading reported that the “runway looked strange” and asked to go and look. The departing 720 had lifted the recently laid surface, I guess where rotation started, and it had concertinaed into what looked like, as I saw it, a set of playing cards with some pieces up to about 5 foot high. Runway closed for quite a while for the damage to be repaired! (sorry no photos)

vintage ATCO

26th Jun 2017, 18:36

My recollection it was a BAL B737-200 although that might have been a previous occasion when the runway had been resurfaced. I don't think it was misty/foggy so there would not have been a RVR observer. Someone reported it was like holding the end of a rug and flipping it upwards!

oldandbald

26th Jun 2017, 19:20

Must have been another one because I recall standing out there in the fog that morning looking at the scene. Just don't have a date and the tapes were played showing how close to having something worse if we had not had a man out there or , of course , had IRVR by then :uhoh:

almost professional

27th Jun 2017, 08:51

Regarding the Monarch B757, I seem to recall the ramp should have been 1/100 but was more like 1/10

LTNman

28th Jun 2017, 18:40

One of Luton's big boys taken when Luton had a spectators building. I would say the photo was taken around 1996 as the building has been painted easyjet orange.

http://i67.tinypic.com/349bbdj.jpg

cj241101

28th Jun 2017, 19:11

One of Luton's big boys taken when Luton had a spectators building. I would say the photo was taken around 1996 as the building has been painted easyjet orange.
Think this was the only Cargolux 747 to visit, in which case LX-ACV on 30/4/97, CLX751 from Rio de Janeiro with horses.

vintage ATCO

29th Jun 2017, 16:41

Polo ponies as a gift from the Sultanate Of Brunei to her Majesty the Queen! I went on board before they started off loading.

The pilot was the Chief Pilot of Cargolux, another crew were on hand to take it empty to Luxembourg.

LTNman

29th Jun 2017, 18:07

It must have stunk to high heaven after its long flight!:yuk:

vintage ATCO

29th Jun 2017, 19:19

I'm use to horses :)

There was a plan to put the B747 on the cargo apron but as soon as I heard that I vetoed it, twy Delta in those days was only 19m wide. Then there was a suggestion it could be towed but the Reed tug driver said 'Golly gosh, I am not doing that'; well, it was something along those lines . . . := :)

LTNman

29th Jun 2017, 21:12

I had forgotten about the narrow taxiway. Seem to remember it was put in for London Aviation although I have no idea who footed the bill. I thought it was then widened when the cargo apron was built. That taxiway going in must have been when the grass runway was closed.

The airport used to have some sort of horse reception building by the cargo apron. Only one in the country I seem to remember.

dc9-32

30th Jun 2017, 06:23

I've suddenly become unavailable to view photos on this thread. The photos simply now say "Please update your account to enable 3rd party hosting".

What account ?

Allan Lupton

30th Jun 2017, 07:49

I've suddenly become unavailable to view photos on this thread. The photos simply now say "Please update your account to enable 3rd party hosting".

What account ?
It's your account with "photobucket" which, like me, you probably have not got. The trouble with remotely hosted photos is that when the remote host changes its rules everything goes wrong.

dc9-32

30th Jun 2017, 08:12

I have a Plus50 account with Photobucket.

Democritus

30th Jun 2017, 08:26

What!! $399.99 for a Plus500 account. Who on earth is going to pay that!!

LTNman

30th Jun 2017, 08:32

What a pain, that message is for me!!! No warning no nothing. I have switched to tiny pics but the issue is that the vast majority of achieve photos here is now lost.

The photo on the top of the page has been switched to tiny pics to restore it.

dc9-32

30th Jun 2017, 09:04

Well, I'm not paying that lump sum just to view photos on here. Utter scam and rip off.

PAXboy

4th Jul 2017, 19:17

Does anyone remember: Richmond Precision Engineering Ltd, on Airport Approach Road? Nothing important, just that I have stumbled across their letterhead from 1985 in the course of some research. They had also bought Hudson-Wharton of Elstree who were mechanical engineers.

boeing_eng

5th Jul 2017, 10:05

More about Photobucket's ransom demands here...

Amazon and eBay images broken by Photobucket's 'ransom demand' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40492668)

lotus1

5th Jul 2017, 11:17

Some good old shots of Luton comming on at 2pm on talking pictures film vendetta for the Saint

LTNman

6th Jul 2017, 20:20

More about Photobucket's ransom demands here...

Amazon and eBay images broken by Photobucket's 'ransom demand' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40492668)

It is such a shame that many of the photos here are now gone.

Prototype Percival Prince G-ALCM taken in 1946
http://i66.tinypic.com/2pqufdd.jpg
Luton News

Haraka

7th Jul 2017, 05:29

I think the date in the above post has a typo in it and would suggest 1948 for the Prince. Even the Merganser was first flown in 1947.
It is nevertheless a very evocative shot for those of us who grew up in Luton when it had an aircraft (and aero engine ) manufacturing industry. Thank you LTNMan

Kieron Kirk

7th Jul 2017, 09:13

The Merganser first flew at Luton on 9th May 1947.

The Prince first flew at Luton on 13th May 1948.

Chiarain.

LTNman

7th Jul 2017, 11:33

Looks like some event was taking place by the crowd of people by the the Prince and the fact the newspaper was there.

LTNman

10th Jul 2017, 20:24

1955 Iraqi Provosts

http://i65.tinypic.com/24mf6no.jpg

vintage ATCO

11th Jul 2017, 17:28

I posted that pic on 15 Feb 2016 ;) :)

Here's what I said:
Four of the 15 Percival Provosts for the (then) Royal Iraqi Air Force. Nearest airframe is '374' Provost T.53 c/n PAC/F/355. FF Luton 1955. Del to Iraq via Bovingdon 17.5.55.

The Bristol 170 is one of four operated in Iraq and the one in the pic is likely '330' delivered in 1953. All four served until around 1969.

Credit: BAE Systems Heritage Centre Warton-Percival/Hunting Photo Archive

LTNman

12th Jul 2017, 04:50

With 2322 posts on this thread it can be hard to remember what has been posted before which is not helped by the mass removal by photobucket. That photo slipped through as I hadn't indexed the source of the photo for some reason or who had ownership of it.:O

YVRLTN

14th Jul 2017, 00:43

When was the final Redcoat flight?

cj241101

14th Jul 2017, 10:22

When was the final Redcoat flight?
Their CL-44 G-BRED ferried back on 3 engines from Kano on 9/5/82 which is the last flight I can find. Redcoat called in the receivers on 20/5/82.

LTNman

14th Jul 2017, 12:59

The Redcoat Britannia lives on at Luton where it has been dumped in the long grass by the fire dump.

noflynomore

14th Jul 2017, 15:37

Insomuch as a limbless, bleached, eviscerated skeleton can be described as "living".
Sad to see.

LTNman

14th Jul 2017, 19:02

http://i63.tinypic.com/313ivxu.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/qoaedy.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/24g3s7p.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2wlrkmc.jpg

Looks like a couple of those tube things operated by compressed air for sending messages.
http://i68.tinypic.com/15np2yg.jpg
No idea who took these photos but they appeared on a message board sometime ago. Hopefully the owner is OK with them appearing here. If not I will remove them.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

14th Jul 2017, 19:15

<<tube things operated by compressed air for sending messages. >>

You mean Lamson Tube, with which you can have the greatest fun with your trousers still on. I have seen the result of popping a boiled egg and, on another occasion, a cup of sugar down the tube. The result at the other end was phenomenal. Of course, the Tels people had sense of humour failures......

Helen49

14th Jul 2017, 20:02

Golf balls arrived with a bit of bang as well!!

Level bust

15th Jul 2017, 10:45

Often used for the transportation of Mars bars etc. Although the electricians were not happy when the clip came undone and the change came out blocking it!

LTNman

16th Jul 2017, 17:24

http://i64.tinypic.com/1z2puhj.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2afeo0z.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/kbsi1l.jpg

vintage ATCO

16th Jul 2017, 17:36

When I started in 1967 it did not have double glazing, that was installed a year or two later. It was a local firm that did it and who ever took the measurements were spot on as each frame fitted perfectly when fitted.

The blue desks in the pics were by Alifab; 'tupperware desks' we called them.

folkyphil

16th Jul 2017, 22:56

Slight thread drift, but I recall a nightshift at Heathrow when certain items of ladies underwear arrived by Lamson tube from TWR to Flight Clearance in the Queen's Building. Circa 1968....

LTNman

20th Jul 2017, 06:08

G-ANBF meets its end. Delivered to BOAC 8th January 1956, Broke up April 1970
http://i64.tinypic.com/23jhcet.jpg

photo by Graham Alexander

Wookey

20th Jul 2017, 07:32

Oh how times change! Neatly dismantled by the look of it, not torn apart as nowadays. The old lady retired with dignity!

LGS6753

21st Jul 2017, 17:49

Did Britannia ever base 767s at Luton?

boeing_eng

21st Jul 2017, 19:53

Yes....767-200's were based in the 80's and I seem to recall did some Summer high season work around 2005/2006.

rog747

22nd Jul 2017, 07:51

Did Britannia ever base 767s at Luton?

First deliveries were 2 for summer 1984 then 2 more for 1985 and so on
all 767-200 273Y then up'd to 290Y
one was at LGW and one at MAN but W flights saw them in and out of LTN all the time plus mx downtime in the hangar

final 762 deliveries were in 1990 and 91 with BRIF and BRIG plus BYAA/AB
all ER ETOPS HGW a/c

the first 767-300's arrived new in 1996 and opens up a subsidiary with Germany Britannia GMBh flight code BN based at Berlin

Level bust

22nd Jul 2017, 10:00

Britannia certainly had B767s based from 1986 - 1993, as I went on holiday 3 times and also a jump seat ride on them.

They were definitely based as they were all early morning departures and not w patterns.

boeing_eng

22nd Jul 2017, 10:01

BYAA/B were the only CF6-80C2 powered 767-200's in the fleet. They positioned in/out to operate weekly non-stop LTN-MCO flights for a short period in the early 90's.....Some of the pilots from that era still talk about the climb performance of those hot rods!

Discorde

22nd Jul 2017, 11:27

Some of the pilots from that era still talk about the climb performance of those hot rods!

Indeed . . . on positioning (empty) flights the rate of climb of these 'GT' aircraft surprised ATC - more than once came the challenge 'confirm you are a Boeing 767?'

'AA & 'AB were initially operated by Britannia for Aruba Airways (flying Amsterdam to Aruba). Here's a (photoshopped) image of 'AA at the end of its life.

http://steemrok.com/aa%20peckam%20v7.jpg

LTNman

22nd Jul 2017, 13:30

Didn't Britannia used to operate a 767 service from Ltn to Australia? If they did was it a charter service?

cj241101

22nd Jul 2017, 14:17

Yes....767-200's were based in the 80's and I seem to recall did some Summer high season work around 2005/2006.
767-300 was a regular in summer 2000, remember it getting parked on stand 5 occasionally, normally on the east apron. Operated Wed and Thu only.

NRU74

22nd Jul 2017, 14:43

LTNman
In your post2327 is the guy in the black and white pic using an Aldis?

Falcon666

22nd Jul 2017, 15:30

Re:Britannia Australia flights
I remember sitting in Singapore Changi and seeing Luton on the destination board.
Think the flight originated in Perth and it was a fortnightly service?

At the time didn't they also do ad hoc flights to Barbados from Luton.

The 767-200s in the high season from Luton
Mon Thessaloniki , Dalaman
Tue Malta , Bourgas
Wed Paphos
Thur Palma , Dalaman
Fri Palma , Corfu , Ibiza
Sat Paphos , Alicante
Sun Larnaca , Bodrum

Cant find the year though.
Friday night around 11pm used to be entertaining (with two 767s on occasions) if i remember correctly.

Travelbag was the company, just remembered Flights were Oct/ Nov to Mar/Apr
There is a timetable on a well known on line auction site

Level bust

22nd Jul 2017, 16:52

For info on B767-200

1986 - Thursday to Iraklion
1989 - Tuesday & Thursday to Palma
1993 - Monday to Ibiza. Did a W pattern in between to Manchester (I think) So got an extra day in Ibiza!

All summer flights, in the winter of 85/86 they did a double Lyons for the skiing season.

oldbalboy

22nd Jul 2017, 17:24

Didn't Britannia used to operate a 767 service from Ltn to Australia? If they did was it a charter service?

did charters from 89 for about 12 years from LTN then LGW + Manchester to variety of destinations in Australia & New Zealand using 767-200 & 300

lotus1

22nd Jul 2017, 18:44

I remember a relation flying from Luton to Perth on the 767 they lived at st Albans and always flew from Heathrow on either BA or Singapore but when this service started it was a god send they said the money they saved enabled them to fly twice a year on this service.

almost professional

22nd Jul 2017, 22:01

Is it true Britannia chose the B767 over the A310 because it could make FL370 by the UK FIR boundary off Luton and miss a shed load of slot restrictions?

Offchocks

23rd Jul 2017, 04:35

Is it true Britannia chose the B767 over the A310 because it could make FL370 by the UK FIR boundary off Luton and miss a shed load of slot restrictions?

I'm not sure about the A310, but I'm pretty sure I saw something on TV touting the capability of high flight levels and avoiding slot restrictions.

squeaker

23rd Jul 2017, 09:03

IIRC The first B767 that Britannia used to Oz was G-BOPB.
Immediately christened by the locals as Go Back Ome Pommie B@stards...

ajd1

23rd Jul 2017, 15:08

Certainly the decision was between B767-200 and the A310. Story was that Britannia were close to ordering the 310, then Boeing made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

boeing_eng

23rd Jul 2017, 16:10

The A310 was seriously considered but operating economics and interior layout issues were two big factors that tipped it for Boeing

BY joined with Braathens to gain a few concessions from Boeing for the joint 767 order (including a part-financed simulator which lived at LTN for many years)...Although Braathens association with the type didn't last long!

Incidentally, only G-BYAA operated for Air Aruba

The Australia runs initially operated weekly LTN-Bahrain-Singapore-OZ.....The crews were away for ages! The flights switched to LGW and MAN and the stops swopped to AUH/SHJ and Batam in Indonesia....

lotus1

23rd Jul 2017, 16:43

With regards to Britannia using the 767 my first flight was from gatwick with family to Ibiza 85 we had the late George best on the plane what ever the press said about him he was a true gentleman no special treatment just a true gent with regards to braathens using the767 it was so uneconomical for them they had to get rid of it only used it for a year and a half also didn't Brittania lease a 767 from air newzealand there was a tv show many years about Luton when the plane in question could not take off a passenger said they saw a mouse on it plane was searched and yes it was found.

Mr Oleo Strut

23rd Jul 2017, 17:02

Didn't Britannia used to operate a 767 service from Ltn to Australia? If they did was it a charter service?

Yes. I remember disembarking from an Alitalia 747 at Kingsford-Smith just before Christmas 1995. We'd been very lucky and had been given given a first-class upgrade from Bangkok so we were feeling very pleased with ourselves, cool, nice and refreshed. On the next stand was a Britannia 767 off-loading. It was packed. They'd come out directly from the U.K. in 26 hours with only a refuel in the Gulf. Their pax followed us through the terminal. They were utterly, totally shattered, like zombies, poor little kids crying, wives and girl-friends wailing, they looked like walking wounded coming out of a war zone, but they said it had been a good flight. We didn't comment. I think it was a regular charter.

LTNman

23rd Jul 2017, 17:46

http://i63.tinypic.com/2n1b953.jpg

boeing_eng

23rd Jul 2017, 18:19

Braathens operated the 767 in a low density config of around 240 seats but couldn't make it work as travellers were not willing to pay the higher prices demanded....

Yes, ZK-NBJ was leased in 96/97 (an ex BY aircraft anyway!)

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7569324

Stan Woolley

23rd Jul 2017, 18:46

Is it true Britannia chose the B767 over the A310 because it could make FL370 by the UK FIR boundary off Luton and miss a shed load of slot restrictions?

No idea about why the 767 was chosen, but I remember the policy when tanking fuel we'd only tanker so that we could still make FL410 direct. Tanking to a Take-off weight of 121 500kgs rings a bell, but if that was figure used, you've witnessed a miracle, as my memory is unreliable!

kenparry

24th Jul 2017, 07:13

On the next stand was a Britannia 767 off-loading. It was packed. They'd come out directly from the U.K. in 26 hours with only a refuel in the Gulf.

Not so. The B767 needed 2 stops between UK and Oz. The first was in the Gulf, initially Bahrain, then Abu Dhabi, finally Sharjah. The second was initially Singapore, later Bataam just across the strait.

They were utterly, totally shattered, like zombies, poor little kids crying, wives and girl-friends wailing, they looked like walking wounded coming out of a war zone, but they said it had been a good flight.

Your description of pax condition on disembarking does not tally with what I saw. I operated a number of these flights, and remember happy but tired people on arrival in Oz. The Oz flights ran for a decade or so, chartered by Austravel, and ended when scheduled fares came down so much that the ticket prices had to fall, and the route became only marginally profitable. The commercial risk was too great: one major tech delay down-route would have wiped out the profit for the whole series of flights.

oftenflylo

24th Jul 2017, 07:42

The OZ flights started with the Britannia 102 in 1969 routing Luton, old Dubai, Singapore - callsign 'Southern Cross' but cannot remember if they were painted as such-only worked em on VHF.

Allan Lupton

24th Jul 2017, 07:47

One of my colleagues used that Britannia 767 sevice to and/or from Oz and what he and his family endured left them pretty well done for. The key point, as described to me at the time, was that the seat pitch was left the same as used on (e.g.) trips to Malaga which would be just tolerable for a couple of hours but not for over a day.

22/04

24th Jul 2017, 09:07

I remember G-ANBL is Southern Cross livery but never saw one actually operating or knew what "Southern Cross" was all about- orange cheat line wasn't it with a silver cross replacing the old lady on the tail.

Someone one of here will have more info perhaps.

LTNman

24th Jul 2017, 09:28

Southern Cross G-ANBL at Luton https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0285/1428356-large.jpg

22/04

24th Jul 2017, 09:57

Ah all those Britannias - and an AEL Bedford van. do you have a date for photo LTNman; trying to work out if its a misty moist morning or a balmy summer one- 1970 or'71 I guess - I think the last time I saw this aircraft was during a visit to the tower in that winter. Just checked Charles Woolley's book and that has it with Southern Cross only for one month from May though June 1970.

Pretty sure it went back to BY but they never put the old lady back - so she flew as a white tail to the end of her days.

LTNman

24th Jul 2017, 10:41

Photo taken on 21/06/1970
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1428356

LTNman

25th Jul 2017, 07:48

LTNman
In your post2327 is the guy in the black and white pic using an Aldis?

Looks like one to me. I wonder when Luton became radio only?

compton3bravo

25th Jul 2017, 10:19

Referring back to Britannia B767s I remember watching the TV programme 'Wish you were Here' with Judith permatan Chalmers astolling the virtues of the service to Australia. She was most impressed and thought it good value. Also I went with my two daughters on only what I can describe as a part jolly from Luton to East Midlands via a trip over the North Sea with lunch at EMA before returning to Luton. I can only describe the landing at EMA as an 'arrival'! The captain did apologise for the very hard landing. I think this was in the late 1980s or early 1990s.

DANbudgieman

25th Jul 2017, 12:02

During the days of the "Luton Flying Club" pub at the airport (c.1990) there was a photo displayed in the foyer showing an aerial view of Luton airport.

The photo must have dated from the late 1940s as there was at least one high wing Hunting twin in view (a Prince?)

What really caught my eye was a derelict fuselage pod in the background. This was either a Hampden or Hereford. Can anyone confirm which aircraft was involved and give any clue to its fate?

ViscountFan

25th Jul 2017, 13:34

Southern Cross G-ANBL at Luton https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0285/1428356-large.jpg

...and with what looks like a Donaldson International Britannia in the background. My first ever flight (I was 20) was to Munich on one of those. The week before the Sunday Times ran an article critical of Donaldson's maintenance standard. I spent most of the week ensuring my mother didn't read it!

The Member

26th Jul 2017, 19:19

...and with what looks like a Donaldson International Britannia in the background.

There are 3 Monarch Brits in photo and the one behind the Southern Cross is not a Donaldson unit. I suspect it is a Britannia Airways unit.

LTNman

27th Jul 2017, 06:31

cj241101

27th Jul 2017, 09:03

Also wasn't the hangar in the background Britannia's before and after this photo was taken?
Hangar 61 was in use by Britannia when I first began visiting the airport in 1967. They relinquished it after hangar 89 was completed in late summer 1970. Court Line then had it converted to accommodate the TriStar. Britannia had it enlarged for their 767's which were delivered early in 1984. Britannia also used the original hangar 60 to the right in the photo for their 737's.

dixi188

27th Jul 2017, 12:37

In1979 Airline Engineering (Monarch) used 61. I remember doing some work on a Redcoat Brit and an ex Maersk Boeing 720 at that time.

ViscountFan

27th Jul 2017, 13:35

LTNman

1st Aug 2017, 19:56

Luton to Glasgow, Hull and Blackpool. Maybe 1968? What came first, the Heralds or the 748? Did one replace the other or did they work in tandem?

A days parking at Luton at 3 shillings or 15p in new money. :eek:

http://i.imgur.com/2b4Zodf.jpg?1

Level bust

1st Aug 2017, 20:41

I think the Heralds came first, but I'm not at home to check. Certainly they flew in tandem as I flew in both in 68 and 69.

rog747

2nd Aug 2017, 03:33

three bob was quite a lot in 1968 that was my weeks pocket money lol

LTNman

2nd Aug 2017, 06:16

Just dug out some old timetables that are on the internet. The Herald seems to have replaced the 748 by 1968.

Some of the timetables below can be opened fully

Autair International Airways (http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ou1.htm)

VictorGolf

2nd Aug 2017, 08:30

OUAQUKGF Ops

2nd Aug 2017, 08:41

Heralds G-APWA and then G-ASKK were leased from Handley Page during 1963 as a stop gap due to the delayed delivery of the Ambassadors from Globe Air - they were used for I.T. flights.

H.S. 748s G-ATMI and G-ATMJ were delivered in the spring of 1966 and initially used for I.T. flights and scheduled services.

Heralds G-APWB/WC/WD were delivered in November 1966, all undergoing complete refurbishment at Luton before their introduction on to scheduled services in 1967.

Luton-Blackpool service inaugurated 1st October 1963 using 36 seater Viking.

22/04

2nd Aug 2017, 09:50

The Autair 748s were used a lot on IT services far and wide in 1967- on Saturdays one went Corfu IIRC. Not sure I would want to go that far in a 748.

By 1968 I don't remember them being around at all with Heralds (and still the occasional Ambassador (only 'ZZ by then)) on the scheduled services. I think they spent a lot of time thereafter leased out including to LIAT.

22/04

2nd Aug 2017, 09:53

The Court Line helicopter. I don't know why they had this in their fleet together with a couple of HS 125's. Also wasn't the hangar in the background Britannia's before and after this photo was taken?

Was there ever more than one 125- but don't forget the Navajo. Think Court Line's image was modern and flashy- and also more crews were moved around (certainly by the Navajo) than would be the case today. Wasn't there a hot air balloon too?

G-ARZG

2nd Aug 2017, 10:48

Autair Viking G-AGRW was attacked at Blackpool by Aermacchi AL60 G-ARZG
that jumped its chocks before a truncated) 'around the tower' pleasure flight.

No prizes for guessing who came off worse. 'ZG never flew again (AFAIK), 'RW was back in the air some days later.

Level bust

2nd Aug 2017, 10:59

Having looked back through my flying log, the last 748 flight I went on was in May 1968, which ties in with what LTN Man said. Every scheduled flight I did after that was on the Herald.

Didn't the 748s go out on lease to LIAT and I think one of them went to Jamaica as well.

LTNman

2nd Aug 2017, 17:28

In terms of what came first on the Luton to Blackpool run, was it not the Viking followed by the Ambassador? I seem to remember that my wife to be had a very bumpy ride back to Luton in an Ambassador circa1966.

Single fare in 1966 was £4.15s which is just under £65 at today's prices according to an inflation calculator.

VictorGolf

3rd Aug 2017, 08:35

Crikey, I must have been keen. £4.15 would have been about a quarter of my weekly wage at the time. Anyway we're still together so it must have worked.

LTNman

3rd Aug 2017, 17:56

lotus1

3rd Aug 2017, 18:26

I remember seeing the pink one at Luton may75 while boarding a Brittania 737 for a two week holiday to Ibiza we was staying at Cala den bossa Ibiza airport was just up the road a great spotters hotel was the mer nostrum you could see all arrivals on the second week we heard a loud roar it was court lines pink tristar with no titles could this had been leased out to another operator I thought they where sold to Cathy Pacific after this shot passed we had condors 747s land what a sight always remember names max and fritz what a surprise

sycamore

3rd Aug 2017, 19:22

...and ,relax,breathe gently......!

cj241101

3rd Aug 2017, 19:28

Wasn't there a hot air balloon too?
G-BAND a Cameron O-84 was registered to Court Line from 22/1/73 until 18/4/75.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1440731

cj241101

3rd Aug 2017, 19:32

Didn't the 748s go out on lease to LIAT and I think one of them went to Jamaica as well.
Not to mention G-ATMI which was leased to Skyways summer 1968 and summer 1969.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1392686

22/04

4th Aug 2017, 08:24

I know the TrisStars were at LTN for a long time- I would say around 12-14 months. Does anyone remember whether they were "properly looked after" cabin windows sealed, engine runs and the like.

LTNman

4th Aug 2017, 08:56

http://i.imgur.com/kJ7cold.jpg?1
Graham Alexander

22/04

4th Aug 2017, 09:57

Nice picture presumably in the northwest corner LTNman.

Is the aircraft behind a withdrawn Autair Herald?

LTNman

4th Aug 2017, 12:55

I assume it is outside their hangar next to the NW Corner. Herald services ended when Autair became Courtline so it could well be a withdrawn Herald as the location would be correct.

Snarlingdog

4th Aug 2017, 13:49

Liffy 1M

4th Aug 2017, 14:04

Taken from the offices of McAlpines, with titles missing a dirty looking Ex-Courtline Tristar G-BAAA leaves Luton for the last time. So how long did it stay at Luton after Courtline went bust?

http://i.imgur.com/qLoN6eb.jpg?1

This photo is hosted by me here:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1484/23861530951_a2432f7d36_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CmyzQ4)G-BAAA L-1011 TriStar 1 (https://flic.kr/p/CmyzQ4) by Irish251 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24101413@N03/), on Flickr

LTNman

4th Aug 2017, 14:55

Full credit now given that you first published the photo on Flickr but the photographer remains a mystery. The photo I put on here actually came from another website around a year ago.

It is always incredibly difficult to track down the original photographer but where I can I ask permission. With the power of the internet making it possible to copy and paste I usually get informed that the source did not take the actual photo.

So far only one person has refused permission as he put a monetary value to his photographs which I have respected but his superb 3 page collection can be found here http://www.edendale.co.uk/GO/LTN.1.html as he has been good enough to put his photos of Luton taken in the late 50's and early 60's on the net.

dixi188

4th Aug 2017, 16:03

Fwd. fuselage near fire station is IIRC from a B720.
It's been about 13 years since I did fire and smoke training there.

pabely

4th Aug 2017, 16:10

There is so much knowledge and nostalgia on this forum, it never fails to brighten my day.
Who can tell me what this - blue circled - fuselage front section was from? Presumably it's used for some kind of training but how did it get here?

https://s20.postimg.org/x16y21uzx/fuselage1.png

Used to be this, VP-BJW B.737 [c/n 23551] if it the same fuselage, not noticed whether the same one recently. That came from Kemble on a lorry after being b/u

You can see better pictures on Air Britain Photo site and Key Aero Network sites but they date back tom 2011

LTNman

4th Aug 2017, 16:42

Is it still used as they have a mock aircraft at their fire training ground?

Liffy 1M

4th Aug 2017, 17:42

Full credit now given that you first published the photo on Flickr but the photographer remains a mystery. The photo I put on here actually came from another website around a year ago.

It is always incredibly difficult to track down the original photographer but where I can I ask permission. With the power of the internet making it possible to copy and paste I usually get informed that the source did not take the actual photo.

I wasn't doubting your motives and, where I know the photographer's ID, I wouldn't post it on the 'net without permission either. Thanks for this great thread, which I regularly check for the latest interesting and well-informed postings.

LGS6753

4th Aug 2017, 18:23

When the Heralds were withdrawn, they all returned to Luton one Saturday morning and carried out a "display", calling up "Herald Formation". I wonder if there are any photos of that.

LTNman

4th Aug 2017, 20:31

http://i.imgur.com/uNpMDQH.jpg?1

LTNman

4th Aug 2017, 20:37

DaveReidUK

4th Aug 2017, 21:43

but how did it get here?

Photo taken at Kemble as it was being broken up in 2010:

http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircraft/small/000/471/471518.jpg

pabely

5th Aug 2017, 12:56

Here it is taken tonight

http://i.imgur.com/r1CekdM.jpg?1

Begs the question what the diggers are doing there?

LTNman

5th Aug 2017, 13:49

Taxiway Bravo extension which is just out of shot

cj241101

5th Aug 2017, 22:14

Nice picture presumably in the northwest corner LTNman.

Is the aircraft behind a withdrawn Autair Herald?

ex-Bavaria D-BEBE which sat there from late March to late October 1970

LTNman

10th Aug 2017, 15:57

A moment in time. The reason I really like this photo is the man in the trilby walking across the shot. No doubt from the snappers point of view the man ruined his picture.
http://i.imgur.com/plpt9p8.jpg?1
(edit name correction) Mark Harper

compton3bravo

11th Aug 2017, 07:58

I have my doubts about the snapper ruining the picture; personally I think it is a well constructed photo what with the fuel bowser and baggage truck conveniently situated. Note the airline bag as well.

DaveReidUK

11th Aug 2017, 08:18

He's probably an aircraft salesman. :O

OUAQUKGF Ops

11th Aug 2017, 08:44

More likely he was hoping to impound an Ace Freighter Connie but was not up to scratch on his identification skills.

Level bust

11th Aug 2017, 11:16

Not quite the right name credit LTNman for the Ambassador. Mike Harper not Mark Haroer! Taken on the 28th April 1968 boarding for a flight to Copenhagen. We all got on, then all taken off as there wasn't enough fuel on board! It was a charter taken a plane load of Danes back to Denmark. Then flew back empty, where I spent most of the flight in the Captains seat while the Capt, don't know his first name but was commonly known as 'Speedy Williams' apparantly, sat down the back!

OUAQUKGF Ops

11th Aug 2017, 14:11

Ah - Speedy Williams - A Second War Veteran who was originally based in Berlin with Autair's Vikings. Unflappable - when experiencing an engine failure on The Pig in The Berlin Corridor he took out his pipe and filled the cockpit with smoke whilst telling his young Jewish First Officer Joe 'Foreskins' Foster to "Sort it all out!"

LTNman

11th Aug 2017, 15:49

More likely he was hoping to impound an Ace Freighter Connie but was not up to scratch on his identification skills.

I used to own a very old copy of Aircraft Illustrated that had a photo of a couple of Ace Freighter Connie's abandoned at Coventry. Oh to see them now!

LGS6753

11th Aug 2017, 17:35

Thanks for that pic of the Herald Formation, LTNman. Marvellous!

OUAQUKGF Ops

11th Aug 2017, 18:31

Not Luton but Liverpool, however........The Story of the Ace Freighters Lockheed Constellation That Tipped - AirlineReporter : AirlineReporter (http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/02/the-story-of-the-ace-freighters-lockheed-constellation-that-tipped/)

vintage ATCO

11th Aug 2017, 20:39

while the Capt, don't know his first name but was commonly known as 'Speedy Williams' apparantly, sat down the back!

Mike Williams, I think. Did a fam flight on a BAC1-11 with him.

Level bust

11th Aug 2017, 21:16

I think OUAQUKGF Ops can confirm, but I think Speedy Williams retired with the Ambassador. I don't know how true it was, but my dad told me he was seen pacing the distance between the lighting gantries to see if there was enough room to fly an Ambassador between them!

OUAQUKGF Ops

11th Aug 2017, 22:06

Yes there were two Captain Williams in Autair and 'Speedy' retired on the demise of the Ambassadors. Mike also flew the Ambassadors and was universally known as 'MGW' or,in the days of his piston flying with the company, less charitably as 'Serviceability Charlie'. This latter nick-name came about from his habit, when making his inbound call on the Company Frequency, of almost without fail declaring with relish that the status of his aircraft's serviceability was 'Charlie'.

I.E. Alpha = Fully Serviceable. Bravo = Just about Serviceable (Replace or tighten up a few bolts) and Charlie = Well and truly knackered.

I hope his son David won't mind this mention of his late Dad who went on to fly the One Eleven and Tristar.

WilliumMate

11th Aug 2017, 22:24

Ops;9859081whilst telling his young Jewish First Officer Joe 'Foreskins' Foster to "Sort it all out!"

Priceless. My good oppo who I met on my first day in the Andrew was called rather pretentiously I thought Reuben Samuel Peter Goldberg, usually shortened to RSP Goldberg. When asked what RSP stood for his stock answer with a grin was 'Red Sea Pedestrian'. Top chap.

:}

DANbudgieman

12th Aug 2017, 00:51

Unflappable - when experiencing an engine failure on The Pig in The Berlin Corridor he took out his pipe and filled the cockpit with smoke whilst telling his young Jewish First Officer Joe 'Foreskins' Foster to "Sort it all out!"

Would this be the self same Joe Foster who went on to be a Dan Air 748 skipper?

OUAQUKGF Ops

12th Aug 2017, 08:31

Possibly so - quite a few of Court's pilots found jobs at Gatwick when the airline went bust and I think Elizabeth Overbury and Kurt Lang were amongst those who went to Dan Air.

LTNman

18th Aug 2017, 17:13

http://i.imgur.com/VSi2u2h.jpg?1
Steve Roberts

YVRLTN

22nd Aug 2017, 00:41

I remember an Autair Helicopters Bell 212 at Panshangar mid 90's - any relation to the old Autair?

hatters united

22nd Aug 2017, 08:57

YVRLTN.
Yes, the Autair Helicopters that you saw down at Panshager was owned by the original Autair from Luton in the 50's and 60's.
The helicopters were over in the "blister " hanger next to the flying club at Luton, then when Court Line went under they moved their offices to the old Court Line Cabin trainer which was located behind Halcyon House and moved all there old and stored helicopters to Panshanger. At on time in the 90's there were a number of old S-55 helicopters, as well as an S-55 from Court Line South Africa.
It was all owned by Bill Armstrong who was the main original founder of Autair Airlines and Helicopters.

LTNman

22nd Aug 2017, 18:46

With regards the Autair Helicopters, they are still going in South Africa although the name Court was dropped in 1990.

COURT HELICOPTERS (PTY.), LTD.: South Africa (1964-2000) (http://www.worldhistory.biz/contemporary-history/76760-court-helicopters-pty-ltd-south-africa-1964-2000.html)

Photos here https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=court+helicopters&client=firefox-b&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwjBtPHlvuvVAhVDBsAKHe_sDTcQsAQIMw&biw=960&bih=463

LTNman

25th Aug 2017, 19:08

The last Constellation to visit Luton? Looks like a Courtline generator have been placed by the nose with Dan-Air steps at the rear.

http://i.imgur.com/iB6i8br.jpg?1
unknown photographer

cj241101

25th Aug 2017, 20:26

The last Constellation to visit Luton? Looks like a Courtline generator have been placed by the nose with Dan-Air steps at the rear.unknown photographer
F-BHMI was the last Connie I saw at Luton which was operating a rugby charter on 28/2/71 along with Trans Union DC-6 F-BNUZ, Europe Aero Service Herald F-BLOY and S.A.T.A. Convair 640 HB-IMM. Also the day Britannia took delivery of their 1st 707 G-AYSI which arrived from Oakland in part World Airways colours.

22/04

26th Aug 2017, 07:49

Nice mixture of ground vehicles - Midland Land Rover in there too.

LTNman

27th Aug 2017, 08:51

In the final years British Midland operated only at weekends into Luton on the Jersey and Guernsey routes using F27's, Viscounts and I think DC9's. Before that they used to operate to other destinations in the week but what were they?

When the raised offices above the baggage belt were being knocked down so to move the check-in desks from opposite the entrance to either side of the entrance a large BM route map in plastic that must have been attached to a wall was dumped in a skip. Sorry to say I was not brave enough to take it.

rog747

27th Aug 2017, 12:50

i was at BMA LHR 1977-1985 and as I recall in those years we only flew in and out of LTN at weekends to JER and GCI -
same as with those flights to/from SEN and CVT to the CI's

out of LTN the Viscounts were used on the GCI and both DC-9's and Viscounts on the JER
all the LTN (and SEN & CVT) - Channel islands flights were flown on a W pattern originating from either EMA BHX MME or GLA (maybe LPL too)

cannot think of any weekday flights in/out of LTN during my years but going back to late 60's and early 70's there were plenty

(including the use of VC8, Heralds and the new 1-11 523's) i think to JER GCI EMA LBA DUB and GLA plus the IT charters
popular routes were OST PMI BCN BSL

shame about the sign in the skip :(

LTNman

28th Aug 2017, 09:05

The sign had been abandoned and dumped below the airline offices for many years as there was a void behind the baggage belt. From memory it was a BM route map from Luton. It would have made a nice addition to my garage wall.

Another thing I missed out on was a red light that used to sit on the edge of one of the three WW2 hangars that were located behind Monarch's old hangar. The hangar in question was re-clad and the light which looked as old as the hangar disappeared.

The light in question was a square lantern type fixture.

22/04

28th Aug 2017, 12:15

Probably a different light but I recall one on what I think were then English Electric Offices. It flashed green and was the visual identification beacon. Wasn't used after around the sixties I think.

Midland operated Dublin from the late sixties and the routes to Glasgow via Leeds and EMA briefly in the early 70s- the via Leeds route was I think then operated by Dan Air 748s again fairly briefly. A variety of aircraft were used on the CI route including Heralds,F27s and on occasion Short 360s London City Dash 7s.

LTNman

28th Aug 2017, 14:35

Allan Lupton

28th Aug 2017, 15:09

Guess this must be around 1967 as there is a Autair HS748 in the photo. When did British Midland change its livery? I guess this is a Canadair Argonaut. Looks like a DC4 to me but were they different?

Argonaut was BOAC's name for the Canadair North Star.which, although referred to as DC-4M in some cases, was more than just a RR Merlin-engined DC-4 as a significant proportion was DC-6 and there was some C54 contribution - if geriatric memory is to be trusted!

cj241101

28th Aug 2017, 15:10

Guess this must be around 1967 as there is a Autair HS748 in the photo. When did British Midland change its livery? I guess this is a Canadair Argonaut. Looks like a DC4 to me but were they different?

http://i.imgur.com/pijb5R1.jpg
Published by Andrew Sharp

This photo was taken by my late father on 15/7/67. The Argonaut is G-ALHY in which I flew back from Jersey on 13/8/67. It was basically a DC-4 licence built by Canadair with several mods; primarily it was pressurised and the P&W engines were replaced by Rolls Royce Merlins. In other words it sounded like a Lancaster bomber! Officially designated a Canadair DC-4M, the name Argonaut was the BOAC fleet name; in Air Canada service it was known as the North Star. Midland withdrew it (and G-ALHS) at the end of summer 1967.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_North_Star

The Midland "BM" tail was replaced in 1969.

The DC-3 in the background is G-AMSN, still in the colours of the defunct Mercury Airlines. The HS125 is the ill-fated G-AVGW that crashed on to Vauxhall during a training flight on 23/12/67.

LTNman

29th Aug 2017, 05:32

Luton seemed like a special place up until the more recent years. I can't imagine the latest generation getting nostalgic in 30 years time over a Wizz and EasyJet dominated airport with its Airbuses.

SpringHeeledJack

29th Aug 2017, 07:08

Like a great many airports today, the homogenisation of fleets and aircraft types have rendered variety a thing of the past. LTN has an ever changing biz-jet quotient, but as you say the 'good old days' are long gone. Probably the mid 90's was the last period where interesting types were regular visitors. Oh well, be thankful that you were able to witness, see, smell, feel the nostalgia back when it was the day to day.

jensdad

29th Aug 2017, 12:24

I don't know what it's like at Luton, but at most airports these days, especially my local Newcastle, you can't even get to 'see, smell, feel' anything without parking 'illegally', clambering over hedges or walking down roads where you have a nagging feeling in the back of your mind that you're probably breaking some law or other. :sad:

LTNman

29th Aug 2017, 13:43

Remembering the days of the spectators building and viewing area where visitors were encouraged. The booth in the corner was for pleasure flights.

http://i.imgur.com/O8p7mXG.jpg?1
Mark Osborne

vintage ATCO

29th Aug 2017, 18:14

rog747

29th Aug 2017, 20:02

I started work there in 1967 and I am fairly certain, on occasions, BMA did a charter to Palma with an Argonaut; 4 hours!

And didn't Autair do Luton Palma with a HS748 with a tech stop at Perpignan? I remember it because it had to arrive Perpignan in daylight (no runway lights) but had to depart again before the temperature got too high.

yes 1967 was the last summer of the BM Argie's -
after the awful BMA stockport and air ferry DC-4 crashes in June their days were seriously numbered and piston a/c in the main on IT holiday flights from the UK were quickly replaced with newer jets such as 1-11's and caravelles or at least comets or prop-jet Viscounts Vanguards and Britannia's
(The vanguards of BEA were mostly not charters but the low midweek YN night tourist excursion fares offered by BEA to BCN PMI NAP MLA GIB and so on offered very low fares and full packages were arranged by BEA silver wing Holidays)
Gaytours did charter the BEA vanguards from MAN.

It took some years for the term 'charter airline' to return to respectability,
although Inex Adria, S.A.M of Italy, TAE and Spantax (to a lesser extent) still flew their piston DC-6's and 7's into the UK on holiday charters for some years after into the 1970's.

in July 1968 BY took delivery at LTN of their first 737 and Monarch commenced ops that year.
autair and laker took their first 1-11's in 1968 as had Channel in 1967
Channel in 1968 and BKS (in 1969) with their new Tridents
BUA and Caledonian took their first charter 1-11 500's in 1969

in 1969 Dan Air at LTN quickly set up their 1-11 base in response to Lunn Poly's need for IT contracts due to the demise in Nov 1968 of parent British Eagle. Dan Air by 1971 had five 1-11's on its LTN base.

i gather autair also used the older Elizabethans on IT charters to Corsica and Corfu being two islands they flew to along with using the 748's later on.

OUAQUKGF Ops

30th Aug 2017, 08:15

I had a jump-seat ride on one of Autair's 748s which was operating Luton-Mahon (Menorca) one of a series of charters. We made a planned tech stop at Perpignan southbound but I can't remember now if it was necessary on the return leg.

Yes it was daylight and I think Perpignan was considered by Autair a Cat C airfield more for the surrounding terrain and lack of landing aids rather than any problems with runway lighting. I would think that there was runway lighting at Perpignan for the Air Ferry crash there occurred in the evening. Incidentally in those days the old airfield at Mahon consisted of a couple of huts and a very rough single strip more resembling the remains of an old wartime airfield.

vintage ATCO

30th Aug 2017, 10:58

Yes, Mahon, that was it. Thanks.

compton3bravo

30th Aug 2017, 19:48

British Midland Viscount's on Friday nights to Palma in 1968, usually parked nose out on stand nine if my memory serves me correctly.

Brookmans Park

31st Aug 2017, 17:04

rog747

31st Aug 2017, 17:08

I flew TMI to Mahon a few times from LGW on a Skyways wet lease in 68 I do not recall any tech stops but we did once lose the water meth injection at V1 which gave a very good view of the stone wall at the end of the then very short old runway

the Viscount 800 should not need a tech stop to the Balearic's we did LPL or MAN-PMI OK and BKS did NCL and MME-PMI
but not sure if they could do AGP MLA or GIB for instance with a full load of 73Y

OUAQUKGF Ops

1st Sep 2017, 08:46

Hullo Brookmans Park - were you with Autair at Luton. Did you fly with Geoff Cole and the rest of the Veterans?

LGS6753

1st Sep 2017, 19:53

yes 1967 was the last summer of the BM Argie's -
after the awful BMA stockport and air ferry DC-4 crashes in June their days were seriously numbered and piston a/c in the main on IT holiday flights from the UK were quickly replaced with newer jets such as 1-11's

I well remember many of the tour operators' brochures in the late sixties emphasising that flights were by JET aircraft. One year, a One-Eleven featured on every page of a Clarksons (?) brochure next to the timetable/price panel.

LTNman

2nd Sep 2017, 10:29

rog747

2nd Sep 2017, 12:52

They used a mixture of Autair 1-11's before it became Courtline and Dan-Air Comet 4's for some of the airports Courtline did not have a base at. Teesside comes to mind for the Comet. Actually did Court have any bases away from Luton?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-FZgOIqko

There were alot of Pos'ng flights with OU - not sure if i recall of a BRS or CDF Rhoose base though, they did a lot of flights from there...one to ask the court line thread ?

then in 1973 Court bought out Horizon Hols and 4S Travel who were staunch BUA/BCAL customers/charterers at LGW and MAN whose bulk IT flying then went over to a Court operation

- so from then on the Court Line presence at LGW and also MAN hugely increased

rog747

2nd Sep 2017, 13:00

They used a mixture of Autair 1-11's before it became Courtline and Dan-Air Comet 4's for some of the airports Courtline did not have a base at. Teesside comes to mind for the Comet. Actually did Court have any bases away from Luton?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-FZgOIqko

yes Dan Air Comets did the flying for Clarksons to the further afield places from LGW such as the Canaries and Rhodes, and much of the northern operation from MAN MME and NCL

BRS and CDF Rhoose Clarksons used Court Line and often they did a CDF-BRS hop then to the destination

OUAQUKGF Ops

2nd Sep 2017, 14:42

LTNman

2nd Sep 2017, 16:51

https://i.imgur.com/Yp23R4H.jpg?1
Graham Alexander

rog747

3rd Sep 2017, 09:34

OU Crews operating from Rhoose were accommodated in The Water's Edge Hotel (Now demolished) at Barry. As far as I know there were no Court Line Outstations after the demise of Autair's scheduled services but I left them in 1971 and could well be wrong.

thanks that concurs with what i recall

many positioning flights were done all over the show to Rhoose BRS NCL LGW BHX and STN

lotus1

3rd Sep 2017, 10:19

The terrible Dan air comet crash in Spain 1970 I beleive this was a clarkson charter but wasn't this from Manchester did clarksons use these until they got there own aircraft

lotus1

3rd Sep 2017, 10:21

Apart from clarksons the Dan air comet did a number of special charters to the port of Spain in Trinidad what a flight

SpringHeeledJack

3rd Sep 2017, 18:12

What would the routing have been on that run ?

LTNman

3rd Sep 2017, 19:47

The terrible Dan air comet crash in Spain 1970 I beleive this was a clarkson charter but wasn't this from Manchester did clarksons use these until they got there own aircraft

A forgotten air crash where no relatives could attend the mass burial, as all the remains were buried in just 48 hours.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 3 | 1970: Holiday jet goes missing over Spain (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_2492000/2492087.stm)

LGS6753

8th Sep 2017, 19:19

LTNman - I enjoyed the Clarkson's film. Just to think - 4 years on they had gone bust, and Greece had had a revolution. Then later, Jugoslavia descended into mayhem and Dubrovnik was a theatre of war.

Tahoe2009

9th Sep 2017, 13:03

I was a Wholesale Newsagent in Dublin and my Family from 1946 to 1995.

We got our supplies through Liverpool and Luton on a Saturday night

Until 1988 Aer lingus used 2 Boeing 737f doing two rotations each Night Supplimented by a Merchant man from Luton. then by a DC belonging to Aer Turas, The Liverpool run was classified as an Airlift Moving 60000 Kilos of Newspapers from the . Print centre in Manchester and a further 20000 Kilos from London.

There was also a similar lift to Belfast however Blackpool was used in the North and Stanstead or Southend used near London.

Heathrow was used in the6o's with Viscounts but changed to the other airports when BEA exited the cargo market.

YVRLTN

13th Sep 2017, 19:27

Anyone remember brief schedule service from Europe Air Express with an ATR42? Think reg was D-BAAA or something like that. Was it from MGL?

cj241101

13th Sep 2017, 22:07

Anyone remember brief schedule service from Europe Air Express with an ATR42? Think reg was D-BAAA or something like that. Was it from MGL?
July 2000 to Sep 2001, European Air Express, yes, MGL, 3 flights weekdays, 1 on Sundays, D-BAAA plus D-BBBB, would post a picture if I had a spare $399....

vintage ATCO

14th Sep 2017, 16:36

Use imgur. I won't post a link in case it is not allowed.

DaveReidUK

14th Sep 2017, 18:06

Or simply upload it direct to PPRuNe as an attachment.

LTNman

14th Sep 2017, 19:54

Uploaded and edited to 800 wide as per Prune rules using Imgur. This is also my replacement photo uploader.

https://i.imgur.com/lntppRL.jpg?1
Dave Watts

DaveReidUK

14th Sep 2017, 20:44

Nice Mk 1 Cortina. :O

LTNman

14th Sep 2017, 21:46

The cars seem to age the photo more than the Britannia.

cj241101

14th Sep 2017, 21:57

OK, here's D-BBBB of European Air Express on 28/8/00

https://i.imgur.com/y6W4CAu.jpg?2

cj241101

14th Sep 2017, 22:34

Thanks vintage ATCO for the imgur tip, here's another:-

D-BCRO 26/9/01, leased from Eurowings
https://i.imgur.com/wDt31et.jpg?1 (https://i.imgur.com/wDt31et.jpg?1)

LTNman

15th Sep 2017, 03:27

A 14 month service into Luton yet I don't remember it happening at all. This is rather worrying!:confused:

cj241101

15th Sep 2017, 10:06

The cars seem to age the photo more than the Britannia.

Tellair started operations from Zurich and Basle on 29/5/69, think they must have had technical assistance from Caledonian from the titles on the photo. They operated ex-British Eagle Britannias G-ARKA and G-ARKB plus ex-Lufthansa Convair 440 HB-IMQ but didn't last long. Both Brits ended up stored at Coventry Nov 1969 and were broken up in 1971.
I'm trying to place the location for the photo - think it must have been the McAlpine car park facing northeast.

Here's a picture of G-ARKA from 23/3/69

https://i.imgur.com/aFBka8M.jpg?1

22/04

15th Sep 2017, 10:31

I don't think so. Isn't the Britannia in the background on the pond - stand 10?

vintage ATCO

15th Sep 2017, 11:01

cj241101

15th Sep 2017, 11:29

If we are talking of the pic with the Cortina in the foreground then I think it is from McAlpine's car park facing south east towards the terminal as the Britannia was towed past.

Yes, I would agree the second is stand 10.

I agree with both - I was originally referring to the B&W photo of G-ARKB under tow. Stand 10 for my picture with just a low metal barrier between me and the aircraft. How times change.

thegypsy

15th Sep 2017, 12:25

I had a Mk 1 Cortina once KYO 399 D I think was the reg. It had a long gear lever which snapped in my hand once when changing gear. Amazingly I was in Leics and around the corner was a Ford garage and I was on my way in 30 minutes. It was new when acquired.

LTNman

15th Sep 2017, 15:35

dixi188

15th Sep 2017, 20:15

But why is the Cortina's bonnet not closed properly?

LTNman

15th Sep 2017, 20:34

Probably broken down. Seem to remember that cars had to be serviced every 3000 miles in those days.

cj241101

15th Sep 2017, 22:10

The photo above with the two Britannia's and those metal barriers. Were those barriers put up for an open day? I can just remember visiting the airport around 1969 with my parents. Seem to also remember visiting at least one hangar on that open day

Airport had open days on 20/10/68 and on 1-2/11/69. Yes the metal barriers were in place during the open days, separating the parts of the apron not open from those that were. On normal days, security patrols would be around to discourage small boys with cameras from vaulting over the barriers to get close up photos - not necessarily successfully, though....

airport open day 20/10/68:-
https://i.imgur.com/crZiLBy.jpg

LTNman

18th Sep 2017, 15:35

The last open day was held on the cargo apron around 1995. I can remember snow on the ground, a small funfair, A DC3 doing pleasure flights and a RAF Hercules on stand. There were tours of the airfield on coaches with a commentary.

22/04

18th Sep 2017, 17:50

Took flights on Britannia Airways Britannias (G-ANBO and G-ANBL) on both open days- seem to remember it was £1 for about 30minutes. A friend and I said we would try the 737 next year but there was no next year!

thegypsy

18th Sep 2017, 18:15

For those who may wonder what type of aircraft is beside the Britannia it is a Piaggio 166B owned by McAlpine Aviation as was.

vintage ATCO

18th Sep 2017, 19:38

We're all spotters here . . . . . ;)

I was heavily involved in the two open days on the cargo apron, 1994 and 95.

falcon12

19th Sep 2017, 12:41

Re the Mk 1 Cortina. Actually its the GT version. You can see the badge on rear wing.

I too owned one, maroon, reg: PWC331D. Wanted a Lotus but Harold Wilson devaluing the pound in my pocket forced the GT version as a substitute.

Happy days

thegypsy

19th Sep 2017, 19:12

Mine was maroon too.

LynxDriver

21st Sep 2017, 22:48

Wonder if someone can help confirm a distant memory I have. Back in 1977 just after I got my moped, I recall riding the 11 miles from home to the airport. Just after I got there, a light aircraft, I think it was a Fuji 200 suffered a collapsed nosewheel. Did this incident really occur or is old age getting a grip on me!

l.garey

22nd Sep 2017, 07:00

LTNman

22nd Sep 2017, 22:08

No idea when this photo was taken but this Beech 90 of National Airways had a prang at LTN

https://i.imgur.com/xQYVbxM.jpg?1

Halcyon Days

23rd Sep 2017, 00:54

Think that's my photo -(or one taken from exactly the same spot!) but away on holiday now so can't date it acurately?

Spiney Norman

23rd Sep 2017, 01:41

I recall that a Gardan Horizon landed either wheels up or with no nose wheel. I think it was in the 1970s, but maybe 1972. I don't have it written down, so can't be sure. I recall the runway was closed for some time.

Laurence

You’re correct about the type but I’m sure it was later. 1974 or even beyond that. I remember one of the ATCOs on duty saying that the pilot remarked on the RTF that he’d thought one day he’d land it with the wheels up, and now he had. I believe it might have been Elstree based?

In earlier years, Courtline had operated a Gardan Horizon which was painted in their livery. Whether it was that aircraft after it had been sold on I really can’t say but a little research shows the Courtline aircraft as G-ASJY.

Stan Woolley

23rd Sep 2017, 18:15

I'd be interested in when that photo of 'Nasty Alpha' was taken. I was at National during '87 -'88 with Luton featuring occasionally. If only those aeroplanes could talk!!!

Border Reiver

23rd Sep 2017, 19:01

There was me Stan wondering if you were responsible 😉

Stan Woolley

23rd Sep 2017, 19:07

No thorobred fixed wing pilot would make a mess like that! :ok:

LTNman

23rd Sep 2017, 20:12

I tried looking at the air accidents investigation reports but could only find this one https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/beech-b90-g-blna-20-november-1987 for this aircraft. Right aircraft, wrong accident, as this one was when a cabin door departed the aircraft at 9000ft.

I am sure you will get an answer here in a day or two as even the remotest fact seems to be well documented by the airport history buffs that visit this site.

Wonder if it landed on the tarmac runway or the grass runway as I don't see any gouges in the ground behind it?

Seem to remember they ended up at Southend?

https://i.imgur.com/juyX1tg.jpg?1

dixi188

23rd Sep 2017, 20:28

I seem to recall National Airways had a pretty dire safety record.
Crash into a garage near Southend and a crash at EMA.

Stan Woolley

23rd Sep 2017, 21:11

Thanks Ltn man.

I am sure you will get an answer here in a day or two as even the remotest fact seems to be well documented by the airport history buffs that visit this site.

I put a bit about that other 'incident' in my book 'Who'd Marry a Pilot?', here is an excerpt:

"My ex colleague at National, Con Law, tells a more detailed story: Lindsay was rostered to fly the MO 430/ 431, SEN-DUB-SEN that night, in Beech 90, GBLNA. Apparently he departed as normal, checked-in with London ATCC and was cleared to climb to FL160. After a few minutes, London called him and told him that his Operations had called and that he had to return to SEN as the Cargo Documents were not on board the aircraft. Now, in those days, if one didn’t have the correct Shipping Documents / Air-Way Bills / Manifests / Customs Declarations / other Andrex made products, the cargo was worthless, as it could not be imported into Ireland. So, back to SEN went Lindsay. He apparently called Ops inbound and told them that he would keep the port engine running with the propeller feathered so that the Ops guy (possibly Duncan Sampson, who is now an Ops/ Crewing Duty Officer with DHL UK at EMA) could just open the rear door and chuck the paperwork in the back of the aircraft. This is what happened and after he had closed the door, the Ops guy went around to the front-left of the aircraft to get a ‘thumbs-up’ confirmation that the door was secure from Lindsay. So, off again went Lindsay. He gets airborne, checks-in with the same London Controller, gets the same clearance and all is looking good. Passing FL90, there’s a big bang and it get’s rather cold, draughty and noisy. After Lindsay scrapes himself off the ceiling of Nasty Alpha (no mean feat for Lindsay; it’s a long-way down from the ceiling to the seat for a wee guy like him!), he shines his torch down the back and sees that the door isn’t there any more. So, he calls London and says something like…. "Er, London, National 430, I’ve got a technical problem and I need to return to Southend…. again". “Roger, National 430, make a Left or Right turn to the ‘SND’ and descend to 3500 ft. When you can, let me know the nature of your problem”. Lindsay reads back his clearance and ends with “… it seems that the main cabin door has departed the aircraft”. Rather shocked, well, really shocked, the controller asks “Roger, National 430, are you in control of the aircraft”. To which Lindsay replies, uttering that immortal line “… well, no more than usual”! He lands safely, of course and the door is found the next day in Epping Forrest. Now, the rest is third +-hand and maybe make-believe, but… Apparently Lindsay was back in the crewroom, nervously rolling another ciggie, when in walks the Ops guy and says, “There you-go, Lindsay, it’s all loaded onto ‘KAK, off you go again”! So, for the third time, off goes Lindsay. He calls London, it’s the same controller…. again, only this time the controller says “National 430, Climb FL100, clearance limit is BPK” Lindsay gives a prompt approaching FL100and the Controller responds “National 430, climb FL120, clearance limit is WOBUN”. Approaching FL120, Lindsay drops another hint and the Controller responds “National 430, climb FL140, clearance limit is DTY”. Lindsay then takes the bait and asks “So, what is it with these clearance limits”. The controller replies “Oh, all of us down here are placing bets on how far you’ll get this time”!!! I reckon Lindsay’s “No more than usual” response is still the best ever aviation one-liner."