Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

[kbrockman]

Apparently a 777 belonging to Asiana arriving at SFO crashed
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOgsgo4CEAEblgh.jpg

HL7742 , a 777-200ER

[goudie]

Looks very serious.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOgvi-_CYAAu6ha.jpg

[beamender99]

Boeing 777 crashes while landing at SFO | www.ktvu.com (http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/boeing-777-crashes-while-landing-sfo/nYfcx/)


A plane crashed while landing at San Francisco International Airport Saturday morning after its tail came off while it was touching down on the runway.
According to a witness, around 11:20 a.m. the plane was just about to land -- its landing gear had come down -- when the tail of the plane came off.
After wobbling for a minute, the aircraft flipped upside down, coming to a stop on runway on it's back.

[ukdean]

Tail plane missing, plane is upright

[Keylime]

Weather at SFO..

METAR text: KSFO 061856Z 21007KT 170V240 10SM FEW016 18/10 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T01830100
Conditions at: KSFO (SAN FRANCISCO , CA, US) observed 1856 UTC 06 July 2013
Temperature: 18.3°C (65°F)
Dewpoint: 10.0°C (50°F) [RH = 58%]
Pressure (altimeter): 29.82 inches Hg (1009.9 mb)
[Sea-level pressure: 1009.8 mb]
Winds: from the SSW (210 degrees) at 8 MPH (7 knots; 3.6 m/s)
Visibility: 10 or more miles (16+ km)
Ceiling: at least 12,000 feet AGL
Clouds: few clouds at 1600 feet AGL
Weather: no significant weather observed at this time

[beamender99]

A good image


https://path.com/p/1lwrZb

I just crash landed at SFO. Tail ripped off. Most everyone seems fine. I'm ok. Surreal...
— David Eun at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) (Airport)

[1stspotter]

Picture taken from a passenger on that flight
https://path.com/p/1lwrZb

He tweets:
I just crash landed at SFO. Tail ripped off. Most everyone seems fine. I'm ok. Surreal...

[Machinbird]

One report of 290 onboard + an infant.

[akerosid]

Aircraft is HL7742, in service with OZ since March 2006; LN 553.

Photo: HL7742 (CN: 29171) Asiana Airlines Boeing 777-28E(ER) by John Fitzpatrick - JetPhotos.Net (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7130150)

Only the second 777 hull loss; hopefully still non-fatal.

[1stspotter]

NBC LA reports
290 on board airplane that crash landed at #SFO, CalFire reports. No reports of injuries.

[Bearcat]

I wonder did a heavy landing turn into a crash landing. Serious impact for the tail to snap. Lets hope there are no fatalities.

[Springer1]

Fire may have come after the evacuation.

[lunkenheimer]

CNN video shows aft bulkhead present but breached.

[1stspotter]

some photos taken close to the aircraft by a TV heli

https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/353597138934067200/photo/1
https://twitter.com/izzy_the_drizzy/status/353597090057830400/photo/1
https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/353596898269089792/photo/1
https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/353596363730190336/photo/1


EYEWITNESS TO @KTVU: The plane "started violently shaking" after it hit the runway at San Francisco airport, and then "rolled over"
tail broke off when it crashed

[BayAreaLondoner]

KSFO Ground: http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksfo_gnd&icao=ksfo
KSFO Tower: http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=ksfo_twr&icao=ksfo

[Springer1]

Admiral, I was thinking the same, a MD-80 at Edwards AFB, CA. No flap landing by a FAA evaluator.


Aircraft Crash Landing Video a Plane hits Runway Tail Falls Off an MD 80 on Test Flight Hard Landing - YouTube

[Admiral346]

Showing the tail now, there's a debris field from the beginning of the tarmac, just at the sea, dragging onto the runway and the touchdown zone. Maybe undershoot.

[2dPilot]

This Photo: https://path.com/p/1lwrZb seems to show the fire started relatively slowly and does not seem to include the fuselage when passengers were escaping. Hopeful for a low casualty count.

Edit: Fire services suggesting no deaths, but some reports of burns.

[sangiovese.]

just seen on abc, landed v short tail prob hit right on end of hard surface by the sea

[1stspotter]

Live images from heli flying above the crash scene here
Latest breaking news on Plane reportedly crash lands at San Francisco Airport, July 6, 2013 - breakingnews.com (http://www.breakingnews.com/topic/plane-reportedly-crash-lands-at-san-francisco-airport-july-6-2013)

[CityofFlight]

Just seeing the tail and a lot of debris at the landing threshold. Am wondering if this was a hard tail strike?

[LMLMLM]

There is a live helicopter feed on Fox News and it has just shown the tail sat just before the runway threshold and marks on the ground over the embankment into the water on the approach.

[westhawk]

I just saw a news report on NBC TV which featured a camera shot apparently taken from a news helicopter from somewhere over the bay northeast of the airport. From this perspective it appears that the airplane came to rest less than 100 feet left of rwy 28L just beyond the 1,000' aim point markers. 2 left side escape slides deployed, maybe 1L and 2L.

[Non Zero]

Low speed ... high AOA ... late realization of a short touchdown ...

[PropPiedmont]

Didn't a 777 land short before due to ice in the fuel?

[Deacon Blues]

2nd 777 hull loss, and it looks like deja vu all over again.

May be for different reasons, but it looks remarkably similar.

[LME (GOD)]

CNN showing extensive debris field on runway undershoot.

[direct ortac]

Reports are now saying all are accounted for.

[320DRIVER]

Looks very similar dynamic to the BA crash in LHR. Give the pilots the benefit of the doubt before we start accusing them of landing short and hard enough to rip of the tail and open the rear bulkhead like a tin of sardines on a fair weather day.

[sgs233a]

Umm, is it just me, or do the passengers seem to be strolling out of the burning airplane with their carry on luggage?

http://crush.flightaware.com/~dbaker/AAR.jpg

[Corsairoz]

PropPiedmont

British Airways Flight 38 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_38)

[Warby74]

Thought RR had issued a fix for the fuel icing issue...!

[800driver]

777 Crash LHR. Engines didn't respond. Looks a little similar!!

[roving]

Boeing 777

This is only the second hull loss accident for a Boeing 777, introduced in 1995. The previous accident was in 2008 when a British Airways 777 crashed short of the runway at London Heathrow due to engine failure.

[Jetpipe.]

Seems like ENG nr2 separated from the wing and caught fire.. You can see from the photos that the engine fire has burned a hole in the fuselage next to the wing root!

[eqd]

Helicopter view of the apparent tail strike on the water berm way ahead of the zebra stripes:

http://theori.st/take_away/random/ktvu_ss_20130706_1240.jpg

[direct ortac]

It does have similarities to the BA38 incident. This one had P+W engines. Dont know if the FOHE was a RR part or common to all 777's. Anyway, all are OK which is the main thing.

[B-HKD]

Before all the armchair NTSB investigators think they have found the cause..

This aircraft had PW4090 engines. The BA aircraft involved in the LHR accident had RR Trent895 engines.

Either way, this proves again that the 777 is a tank. Of course the landing gear, and engines are gone, but the hull remained intact.

[Blue Pineapple]

Despite perfect weather conditions, the aircraft has made contact with the rock wall / breakwater at the waters edge. This is well short of the threshold. The impact has taken the tail off and the aircraft has finished up off the runway with the engines detaching too. Thankfully all passengers and crew appear to have made it out of the wreckage. Reason for the undershoot yet to be determined.

[Jack1985]

Seems the tail contacted the very start of the runway, debris in the water and in the displaced threshold area, very quick stop which suggests it was a slow and short landing. Apparently all on board safe:eek: amazing news if true! Echoing the posts about crew bashing, we don't know the facts all though this has a certain BA38 esque feeling.

[Al Murdoch]

I think it's actually the third hull loss? Depending on your definition of course. The Egypt Air fire wrote the aircraft off I think.

[1stspotter]

Watching live images from the heli.
aircraft is situated on the leftside of 28L.
Righthand engine close to the fuselage. Lefthand ripped off wings but do not see it. Part of the tailsection at the very first beginning on the runway.
At the first meters of the concrete, just a few meters from the water, lots of small parts of the aircraft. It looks like the aircraft landed very short. Lost the tail, went the the left (trails of the wheels leading to the left).
Must have been a bizar landing.

[RoyHudd]

Perhaps a misjudged approach ending up in an undershoot? Twin engine failure due to multiple bird strike on short final? Nobody can yet know.

Anyway, no need for silly posts offering prayers and the like. Just wait for the accident report folks.

[toffeez]

Similarities to BA38 exist if this was a very cold day at altitude.

[bnt]

Sky News saying all crew & pax accounted for, some getting treatment for burns.

The heli images make it clear that the plane hit the end of the breakwater, leaving some bits in the water. Then a long scrape all the way on to 28L, losing bits as it went.

[Colonal Mustard]

CNN , SKY, FOX, seem to be asking the parking lot cleaner , drainpipe technician and airport terminal window cleaner if they saw anything and throwing them on the screen...


I wonder if it had a double engine failure just prior to touchdown similar to heathrow (different engines though), although i havent seen any landing gear strewn on the field yet so wonder if it was down prior to landing..

Hopefully all ok onboard and asiana having to provide 300+ free flights for life :ok:

[Viscount812]

This appears so similar to the BA accident at Heathrow - end of a long haul flight, stretching the glide, low speed (the fuselage stopped very quickly) and what appears to be a power off stall resulting in a tail strike on the threshold.
Amazing good news that all survived.

[Admiral346]

There are parts of the gear close to the numbers...

[shaun ryder]

Whatever has happened it's a miracle as it seems all are off alive. Somehow it just made it on to the runway. Striking similarity with the BA triple at Heathrow.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Make you realise how luck BA pax and crew were when you see what's left of this one. Agreed tho about the position of the fire being strange, and where is that left hand engine, that's a big old lump for it not to be seen

[akerosid]

Al Murdoch, you're quite correct - my apologies; it was the second accident, but the third hull loss - the MS 772 was indeed written off. Still, an excellent record for the type.

Looking at the photos, notice the fuselage buckling a few feet forward of the rear doors, which suggests a very hard impact.

[BrandonSoMD]

In the picture of the deplaning passengers, note the fracture in the fuselage above the wing. Must have been a fairly high vertical speed impact with some pitchdown.

The debris at the seawall is somewhat right of the extended centerline, based on the landing lights pier in the helicopter video presently playing. Maybe 50 feet right. A surprising amount of debris is right at the seawall, including a large chunk of something in the water. The tail fins (horiz and vertical stab) are all separated, and there is literally no visible structure OTHER than the fin. The nose gear is sitting right before the numbers but has scarring on the pavement leading up to it, so it must have slid some distance.

There is a clear, black wavy skid line on the runway that heads off to the left, before entering the dirt. Strangely, it appears to point to the nose area. At least one tire was clearly dragged, but based on the skid mark it wasn't rotating at all.

No sign of one of the engines. Is it possible that is what is visible in the water about 20 feet offshore from the seawall?

My conclusion: it must have been a fairly high AOA at impact to destroy the tail section so thoroughly; perhaps they got rather slow on short final and hauled on the yoke to at least make the tarmac at all. Either way, the tail was completely ripped off and self-destructed immediately. The nose then came down hard and the airplane slid to a stop.

[BigPoppaCO]

Here is the ATC courtesy of LiveATC.net

http://wandr.me/Audio/AAR214-KSFO-Crash.mp3

[Cows getting bigger]

Initial impact significantly right of runway centreline suggest something more thn just landing short.

[1stspotter]

At NBC TV a NTSB investigator says the plane was slightly right of centerline when it hit the stone seawall at the point where the runway starts. Undershoot. Possible lose of engine power like the BA 777 crashlanding at LHR.

[avspook]

Slats deployed - flaps dont Look fully deployed slides 1L&2R deployed Door3 Closed D4 Missing - Circumferential stress fracture fwd of aft pressure bulkhead - pressure bulkhead severely damaged - no evidence of spoilers deployed

[roving]

KLM Boeing B747-400 Landing San Francisco Cockpit view - YouTube

Cockpit view landing at SF

[Montrealguy]

HL-7742 ? 06-Jul-2013 ? RKSI / ICN - KSFO ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/HL7742/history/20130706/0730Z/RKSI/KSFO)

The aircraft began at FL340 (roughly four hours), then climbed to FL370 (for about 150 minutes) and finished at FL390 (for about 2 hours). Anyone know how to get the temperatures the aircraft experienced during its flight to see if they were significantly below standard temperature ?

[caber]

They are starting construction at ksfo as well, believe the ils and lda are ots for the next several months. They were supposed to start in late June.

[1stspotter]

Picture showing the aircraft hit the stone seawall at landing
https://twitter.com/TelstarLogistic/status/353603001795092480/photo/1

and here landing gear
https://twitter.com/TelstarLogistic/status/353603001795092480/photo/1

[eagle21]

http://t.co/e0tk8wPbKC

[sitigeltfel]

and where is that left hand engine, that's a big old lump for it not to be seen

Is it tucked under the right side of the fuselage, behind the wing root? Looks like the fuselage may have ridden over it after it broke off?

[autothrottle]

Hopefully everyone got out alive. While there are similarities in the dynamics to BAW38, the hypothesis of power loss from a multiple birdstrike at very low altitude may be closer, as someone has already pointed out the BAW hull at RR while these are PW.

Hell of a strong aircraft.

[Ian W]

While it is similar to the BA land short with water frozen to slush in the fuel, that was after an extended winter flight with OAT of minus 70C extremely cold. Followed by a continuous descent approach with engine power only being brought up at 4 miles finals - and they didn't spool up.
The weather is not cold enough and I don't believe that Asiana are part of the Tailored Arrival trials into SFO so they would not have been a continuous descent and would have made more noises about engine problems earlier.
However, a bad bird strike at the wrong time could cause a similar problem. I am sure that we will know inside 12 hours.

[LiveryMan]

Looks to me like they under shot and smacked the tail off of the rocks at the end of the runway.

Reports say everyone got off safely.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ksfo/KSFO-Twr-Jul-06-2013-1800Z.mp3

ATC recording has the pilots talking to the tower after the crash, so some on board systems were still operational once the dust began to settle.

[1stspotter]

This picture shows the crash happening. Lots of smoke starting from the beginning of the runway
https://twitter.com/stefanielaine/status/353591123958173696/photo/1

[JanetFlight]

Here is the ATC courtesy of LiveATC.net

http://wandr.me/Audio/AAR214-KSFO-Crash.mp3
BigPoppaCO is online now Report Post Reply

Impressive that after destroyed on the ground, the pilot stills call on the radio...

[ZeBedie]

Cruise OAT was not unusually cold over the N. Pacific today.

[B-HKD]

Regarding KSFO.

The thresholds for 28L/R have been displaced very recently by ~300ft. Furthermore, new glideslopes have been installed/are in the process of being installed.

Aircraft are usually cleared for a visual to 28L/R on a CAVOK day like today.

If the had the ILS for 28L showing, TCH would have been 64ft.

Note VGSI and ILS glidepath are not coincident

[Corsairoz]

Sky News doing a good job.

Now airing shots showing that the debris field starts exactly at the waters edge.

If reports are correct, looks like it was a very lucky escape and that the tail strike occurred right at the waters edge. High AOA and early tail strike suggesting a fully extended glide by the crew?

[StopStart]

Listen to the audio feeds. He'd declared an emergency prior to landing.

[tbaylx]

From what i heard he did not declare an emergency. he acknowledged a normal landing clearance.

Well judging by the ATC tape it was ops normal until they hit, they were cleared to land and no emergency seems to have been declared since a United flight was waiting to go just short of the runway. They must have got a pretty good view of that.

Either something happened very short final and the crew had no time to advise ATC or they were unaware of anything wrong/didn't communicate it to tower.

[kennedy]

I went into SFO r28L last week, no glide slope, and no papis visual approach only and the DME doesn't read 0dme at the threshols!

Very easy to undershoot or overshoot without vertical guidance! Espesecially as this crew probably hadn't done a visual approach for a long time!

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Maybe then the crew of the united will hold the key, assuming they didn't have their heads down in their instruments at the time

[ManaAdaSystem]

Can anyone confirm the ILS was off the air, and the traffic was doing visual approaches into SFO?
What is the policy on visual approaches in Asiana?

When BA crashed it was winter and the temp at cruise level was -73 degrees celsius. They had a long flight in unusual cold conditions. I'm putting my money on this accident NOT being ice related.

[roving]

This one is better, it shows landing on both L & R

747-400 Parallel Approach KSFO - YouTube

[bugg smasher]

Conducted LOC approach into SFO last night, glideslope out of service for both 28R & L due construction (until August 22nd) , PAPI was working last night. Departed this morning in relatively calm winds, visual approaches were in use for the 28's.

[Non Zero]

I went into SFO r28L last week, no glide slope, and no papis visual approach only and the DME doesn't read 0dme at the threshols!

Very easy to undershoot or overshoot without vertical guidance! Espesecially as this crew probably hadn't done a visual approach for a long time!

Back to the basic aircraft skill ... Visual App without ant vertical assistance. And if you want any instrument assistance ... use the FMC ... 60 to 1 rules ... extend the centerline and add the altitude of 3000 ft ...
Basic aircraft AOA and landing attitude should be well known if you are on a 777-200ER ... right?

[gordonroxburgh]

Confirm no G/S on both 28L and 28R. PAPI only

http://aeronav.faa.gov/content/aeronav/acfstatus/Presentations/13-01_AAUP_Approach_Status.pdf

[tbaylx]

I went into SFO r28L last week, no glide slope, and no papis visual approach only and the DME doesn't read 0dme at the threshols!

Very easy to undershoot or overshoot without vertical guidance! Espesecially as this crew probably hadn't done a visual approach for a long time!


If its a visual only approach surely you'd extend a centerline and fly the FMS vertical profile as a backup to your visual at the very least?? Especially if you don't do visuals that often?

[Airclues]

Listening to the ATC tape, the UA885 (the Osaka bound 744 at the holding point) was offered a line-up clearance but declined it as he needed "a few more minutes". I don't think that he would have been offered this clearance if the Asiana 777 had declared an emergency.

[North Shore]

Assuming (I know..) no mechanical problems, and an undershoot, what's the time frame from recognition and full power application, through spool-up and the plane accelerating and beginning to climb?

[1stspotter]

At least 2 dead, 12 injured
At least two dead, 12 injured in Boeing 777 crash at SFO | www.ktvu.com (http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/boeing-777-crashes-while-landing-sfo/nYfcx/)

[jcjeant]

This picture shows the crash happening. Lots of smoke starting from the beginning of the runway

The pilots of the aircraft on foreground must have seen all ot the event ...

[bcbob]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOg1QPuCEAA8spW.jpg:large

[1stspotter]

Pilot made no distress call prior to landing at San Francisco Int'l Airport, source close to the investigation tells NBC News

[1stspotter]

KTVU now reports: 2 dead, 61 injured

[skol]

Departed SFO yesterday, no VASIS, PAPIS or ILS at KSFO. Only G/S available according to NOTAMS is what's in your FMS.

It sucks, it's asking for trouble.

[aeromech3]

Frozen fuel vis lack of fuel, no fuel emergency called but then not many on-route alternatives, lets hold our breath, just saying engines don't respond whatever OEM to throttle with no fuel! Engines off wing, U/c sheared and yet no wing fire to speak of. Nothing yet says he carried max range fuel!

[B-HKD]

went into SFO r28L last week, no glide slope, and no papis visual approach only and the DME doesn't read 0dme at the threshols

As I mentioned previously, this is due to the installation of the new glideslope antenna being installed for 28L/R 300ft further down.

The 300ft displaced thresholds are part of the new FAA mandated "Runway End Safety Area (RESA)"

Furthermore, the fact that the DME doesn't show 0DME at the threshold is perfectly normal in the U.S. as the DME for the ILS sits at the localizer and is clearly stated on the charts.

[maels]

live

Boeing 777 ???????? ? ????????? ???-????????? - YouTube

[polysilane]

Having watched several photos on the media (live TV), I am shocked that several passengers walking away from the plane were carrying roller bags (which had to have been previously stowed in overhead bins), and large purses, and went down the slides with their bags (or did they toss their bags over ahead of sliding, still incorrect procedure?).

I wonder if casualties were exacerbated by delays in deplaning, which I assume delays had to have occurred in order to accomodate passengers carrying bags and large purses through the aisles and down the slides.

The investigation will need to carefully examine the behavior of the crew and their leadership and guidance to the passengers.

[StopStart]

I may have been a little rash suggesting he'd put out a call - :uhoh: - there's a garbled, stepped on call just prior to everyone going around. The Asiana does call short finals - it's just after that. Prob not related, apologies.
The lack of landing aids sounds "exciting"....

Think I'll defer to the NTSB now!

[roving]

Compressor stall blamed for 777 engine problem | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/44319637.html)

Incident in 2009 involving one of this airline's 777s. Caused by a compressor stall -- but not arising from a bird strike.

[gordonroxburgh]

We've not seen the second engine at all. Is it in the bay?

[eagle21]

Where is engine 1? In the water?

[magbreak]

Does SFO have video cameras on the ends of runways for areas ATC cannot see from the tower?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Assuming (I know..) no mechanical problems, and an undershoot, what's the time frame from recognition and full power application, through spool-up and the plane accelerating and beginning to climb?

Based on the general regulations and not considering the type:

Go-around performance considers engine thrust after 8 seconds of advancing the levers. That usually means the engines are designed to be close to full power at that point (otherwise you can't take credit for the thrust they can give). So one bound on the time is that 8 seconds.

A second item can be used to gauge this, and that's the AP minimum use height, which is often based on the height you'd lose if you had an AP failure/hardover, and had to react to pull up following the hardover - the height you'd need for all of that is typically in the 50-100ft range. So again, 5-10 seconds. (But that includes the failure and reaction, not just reaction)

Another guide is the fact that aircraft typically flare at 50 ft or so, and that's enough time to smoothly adjust the flightpath to level flight, more or less. A more aggressive flare type manoeuvre would reduce the height required to execute it by a bit.

Generally I've seen the actual aircraft response be pretty fast - once the control input is in, the aircraft starts to respond practically immediately.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say between 2.5 and 5 secs (25-50ft) to arrest the descent and begin the climb, with another 2.5-5 secs to get the full climb capability as the engines come up to power.

Based on where they seem to have hit, they seem to have been ~100ft low.

[haughtney1]

I wonder what the FMA said? I wonder if they had RAD ALT issues?

[EGGD]

The 300ft displaced thresholds are part of the new FAA mandated "Runway End Safety Area (RESA)"

How ironic if the outages were a contributary factor in the crash..

[liam548]

Looking at those images reminds me of BA38 ..!


yes I am sure Peter Burkill is watching with interest

[Wizofoz]

I wonder what the FMA said? I wonder if they had RAD ALT issues?

I wonder if they had a bloody window to look out of, and knew what to do with it!!

[oceancrosser]

Re the L engine:


Is it tucked under the right side of the fuselage, behind the wing root? Looks like the fuselage may have ridden over it after it broke off?

That would help explain the lower fueselage damage and subsequent fire.

[CityofFlight]

wizofoz :D

The report will tell.

[ShockWave]

This aircraft is a different model from the BA incident with different engines. It was a shorter flight, not winter, not Polar and therefore the fuel temperature could not have been a factor.
Most Korean Pilots I have flown with will autoland at every chance they can. Take that option away from them, then turn off the ILS and many will struggle, even in benign conditions.

[B-HKD]

Guaranteed if this was a Korean crew that it was the first time in a long time conducting a visual approach without any form of vertical guidance available.

Just ask some of the guys here who have flown for Korean, Asiana etc.

Its either ILS to minimums or guaranteed CFIT.

What happened to briefing the threshold crossing height?

[OxfordGold]

Debris at the start of the Runway (and in water)...

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130706170752-san-francisco-plane-crash-13-horizontal-gallery.png

[Flying Cheddar]

Even with all the learned lessons from previous accidents, all the rigorous crew selection and training, and strict regulations, it amazes me that this still happens. It makes me think they had some really severe technical difficulties. But then again, aircraft maintenance sector is also built upon trial&error and is constantly improving and implementing new rules... By textbook, this shouldn't have happened. I really look forward to unraveling this mystery and learning something from it.

Added... Some of you say ILS was inactive... So what? If OZ pilots cannot handle the airplane down without an autoland, then they are not pilots! How did they pass the sim when they were interviewed for the job? I don't know, a 777 crashed because they had to land visually? Come on...

[gwillie]

CNN just "interviewed" the alleged daughter of a passenger - after much jibberish about absolutely SFA, the dolt-interviewer finally asked her what her father had reported about the event. She replied: 'he knew they were going in too low and that it was going to happen....the tail of the plane hit first and then bounced...'

Interesting............

[canyonblue737]

I may have been a little rash suggesting he'd put out a call - - there's a garbled, stepped on call just prior to everyone going around. The Asiana does call short finals - it's just after that. Prob not related, apologies.
The lack of landing aids sounds "exciting"....

The garbled call sounds to be another controller in the background saying "what's that over there..." In the background as he apparently starts seeing the crash in progress which immediately cuts off the transmitting controller who then must be looking too. Following a pause ATC starts sending everyone around.

Lack of PAPI and GS in beautiful VFR causing a visual to be a complex maneuver in particular in a modern glass cockpit aircraft with a trained air carrier crew is laughable.

[Min Drag]

"Lack of PAPI and GS in beautiful VFR causing a visual to be a complex maneuver in particular in a modern glass cockpit aircraft with a trained air carrier crew is laughable."

I'd say that if this was the cause/contributory factor it's a sad state of affairs rather than laughable - I'd be inclined not to laugh when people are hurt/dead:=

[GearDown&Locked]

curious about altimeter settings ...

[PaperTiger]

Graphic representation of approaches, yesterday and today.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOhIDCWCUAApHFV.jpg:large

[changer]

Guaranteed if this was a Korean crew that it was the first time in a long time conducting a visual approach without any form of vertical guidance available.

Just ask some of the guys here who have flown for Korean, Asiana etc.

Its either ILS to minimums or guaranteed CFIT.

Bingo. You're spot on.

[Obama57]

This is supposedly the Professional pilots forum. Daytime, VFR, light winds; a professional airline pilot does not need an electronic glideslope or FMS GP to affect a safe landing. Visual 28L/R is the norm for landing at SFO. BTW, both runways are 11,000+.

[Doors To Manuel]

Absolutely appalling PR approach. 2hrs plus have gone by and nothing on any of their websites which are all still 'business as usual'.

Most major carriers have plans to but up a holding page within 10 mins of a major incident.

Asian embaressment at loss of face being taken too far methinks.

[West Coast]

Get off your high horse MD

Quite common to have pax exit the aircraft in sfo saying they thought we were going to land in the water when landing 28L/R. You're over water till about 100-150 AGL. I can understand their concern.

[AnQrKa]

Having flown for several airlines in Asia including big blue I can suggest that a cocked up vis app with no slope guidance is very possible with some of these guys. It may turn out to be technical but it may not be that complex ar all.

[ORICHETTI]

what about a stall on short final? bad speeds on FMS? no time to react?

:ugh:

[glad rag]

PaperTiger (http://www.pprune.org/members/30450-papertiger)'s post above very telling indeed....

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Double engine failure on short final would account for this. Am I alone in finding the official cause of the BA 777 crash at Heathrow (ice in fuel causing both engines to fail at exactly the same moment in two seperate fuel systems) a tad unlikely?

After a working lifetime in software I know wher my money was for that one. Is this the inevitable repeat?

[clark y]

If nothing else, this accident shows that even on a nice clear sunny day you can still be bitten.

[Case One]

In the Navy we used to call this a ramp strike, a far more serious beast than a typical tail strike. Question is why?

I wouldn't immediately rule out a BA38 type scenario. Sure it's different engines and a warmer cruise - but BA38 wasn't meant to happen either, could be a new and unwelcome data point.

Visual approaches into SFO can be "sporty" for a big jet and a tired crew. Add that to no PAPIs or ILS GS; or much hand/ visual flying currency and an "interesting" approach is certainly possible.

Don't see how briefing TCH is of any use at all on a visual approach (not too sure it's of any use anyway, I use the window).

[Helmut Smokar]

Profiles above are interesting, possible Autopilot capture at RNAV minima followed by high rate of descent after disconnect?

[GearDown&Locked]

seems they were trying to correct an overshoot initial glide path...

[777Yank]

No ILS glide slope and no PAPI. It is obvious what happened. VNAV is a good back up for a visual approach, unfortunately the "poor mans" glide slope is on the Navigation Display and not of the PFD (Pilot Flight Director), were it should be. Boeing is just getting around to fixing this with NPS (NAVIGATION PERFORMANCE SCALES) on the PFD. NPS is a new display feature that integrates the current LNAV (Lateral Navigation) and VNAV (Vertical Navigation).

[NWSRG]

Am I alone in finding the official cause of the BA 777 crash at Heathrow (ice in fuel causing both engines to fail at exactly the same moment in two seperate fuel systems) a tad unlikely?

Given that the same fuel was being sent to both engines, to a common (flawed) design of heat exchanger, and both heat exchangers had experienced exactly the same combination of conditions, I think the outcome of the investigation can be taken as sound...

[CallBell]

The investigation will need to carefully examine the behavior of the crew and their leadership and guidance to the passengers.

Looking at footage/pics of other evaluations, it appears that many passengers ignore the commands of the crew to leave everything and get out. There is nothing a crew member can do if a passenger gets to the door with a bag as attempting to take it off them would only slow the evacuation further and the crew at the doors have nowhere to put the bags.

What needs to be investigated is not the behaviour and leadership of the crew, given that it seems all but 2 people survived and exited, but rather the behaviour of the passengers who seem to value their possessions, thereby placing others at risk.

[B-HKD]

Here we go again with the BA accident..

For thos who are unware.

The BA -200ER had RR Trent 895s.

The OZ -200ER involved in the crash has PW4090s.

United has been operating the very same engine since '97 and has for more than a decade operated polar flights (ORD-HKG-ORD) (ORD-PEK-ORD) etc.. and there has bever been an issue with heat exchangers freezing on the PW4090.

What many fail to believe, and yet is nothing but cold hard facts, is that the same culture that brought down all the Korean Airlines aircraft in the 80/90s continues to flourish at both KAL and Asiana.

I suggest searching/reading some first hand experiences on PPRuNe. If you want slme video proof, look at what these clowns do on the regular when forced to conduct a manual landing at notoriously challenging airports such as Narita.

If the guy in the right seat was PNF, theres no doubt he didnt dare speak up to the Captain.

To late to cover up loss of face now.

Indeed.. a professional crew doesnt need a glideslope/VGSI/FMS to land in CAVOK on a 11,000+ ft runway.

These guys on the other hand..need all the above. Unless FMA shows LAND3 its
:confused::confused:

[twentyyearstoolate]

I flew for these guys for several years. Whilst the facts are not known and it could be anything at this stage, I will say that the majority of the Korean Pilots were lost without the G/S. Also, most of them had[have] a tendency to push forward and undershoot the Glide Slope in the last couple hundred feet in order to have a lower angle in the hope of the "smooth landing". These guys were obsessed with the smooth landing. Word got around about me, and when they flew with me they knew never to undershoot when I was next to them.

I am saddened by this news, although not surprised based on my personal experience.

[Hardbutt]

Automaticitis. :hmm:

[Speed of Sound]

Just a thought. Are the DFDR and the CVR located in the tail of the 777?

[ORICHETTI]

if a BOEING 777 CREW can not land safely on a long rwy with VFR conditions, then we have a big problem... something happened there, will see next weeks informations.

[G-CPTN]

Early images showed smoke rising from 'beyond' the otherwise intact fuselage.

Fire seems to have been confined to the roof of the fuselage and not immediately after impact - presumably initiated by the starboard engine (if, indeed, the engine on the starboard side of the crash site was the starboard engine, as seems likely).

No fire in the wings.

How quickly did the firefighters arrive?

[Chinese Camp]

I'm sitting here about 10 miles away from SFO, and it would be hard to imagine much better conditions for flying. It's a bright day, clear as a bell with no clouds or fog to be seen. The temperature is around 72 degrees. There is a light breeze that can move the leaves on the trees a little, but nothing more than that.

I don't see how there could be much to complain about regarding conditions.

[Cool banana]

Can see that the fire was caused by the number two engine buring through the forward cargo hold,
But what caused the fire on the other side of the runway?
Also have to ask where are all the t/e flaps off the left wing? and Number 1 engine are they both sitting in SF Bay rapped around a couple of the approach lights??

[RealFish]

I flew for these guys for several years. Whilst the facts are not known and it could be anything at this stage, I will say that the majority of the Korean Pilots were lost without the G/S. Also, most of them had[have] a tendency to push forward and undershoot the Glide Slope in the last couple hundred feet in order to have a lower angle in the hope of the "smooth landing". These guys were obsessed with the smooth landing. Word got around about me, and when they flew with me they knew never to undershoot when I was next to them.

I am saddened by this news, although not surprised based on my personal experience.

Track Log - last 120 secs

19:26 37.5847 -122.2940 298° West 178kts 205mph 1,700ft -1,020 rate Descending
19:26 37.5900 -122.3070 297° West 169 194 1,400 -1,380 Descending
19:27 37.5988 -122.3270 299° West 145 167 800 -1,380 Descending
19:27 37.6016 -122.3340 297° West 141 162 600 -1,320 Descending
19:27 37.6045 -122.3410 298° West 134 154 400 -900 Descending
19:27 37.6073 -122.3480 297° West 123 142 300 -840 Descending
19:27 37.6103 -122.3550 298° West 109 125 100 -120 Descending
19:28 37.6170 -122.3740 294° West 85 98 200 120 Climbing

[PointMergeArrival]

If Paper Tigers Google Earth images are accurate it looks like they mismanaged their visual approach and ended up significantly above a three degree descent path. Could they have dirtied the aircraft fully and started down with a very high descent rate until very short final, engines at idle, and then trying to arrest the descent too late?

[PJ2]

Yes, they're in the unpressurized area of the empennage behind the pressure bulkhead. The exact locations of the SSFDR and CVR varies per type. They will almost certainly have lost all data after the impact due to the separation but the important data will likely be in pristine condition.

[Ian W]

Canyonblue737
Lack of PAPI and GS in beautiful VFR causing a visual to be a complex maneuver in particular in a modern glass cockpit aircraft with a trained air carrier crew is laughable.

Almost as 'laughable' as an A330 crew in alternate law being unable to maintain straight and level in cruise at night. Luckily this one was survivable.

[ywg396]

any indications of a post crash fuel fed fire?

[Case One]

Originally posted by ORICHETTI:

if a BOEING 777 CREW can not land safely on a long rwy with VFR conditions, then we have a big problem...

Regardless of the outcome of this investigation, I thought it was pretty well established that this industry does indeed have a big problem that's getting bigger.

[rudydab]

The Outliers: the story of success. A book by Malcolm Gladwell, that has a very interesting chapter about (past) Korean aviation. A MUST READ!!!

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with your point about the useful data.

All the relevant data and audio information will have been recorded before the separation of the tail.

Although if there are any questions about the subsequent evacuation, there will be no recording of what was said on the FD after the crash, other than what is on ATC tapes.

[haughtney1]

Quote:

I wonder what the FMA said? I wonder if they had RAD ALT issues?
I wonder if they had a bloody window to look out of, and knew what to do with it!!



Aha Wiz.......you read between my lines :E

I know where my money is on this, time will tell...

[nitpicker330]

One possibility is a Erroneous Rad Alt problem like Turkish Airlines in AMS.

The Rad Alt issue is still on going awaiting a fix.

[Ian W]

Shaggy SD
Double engine failure on short final would account for this. Am I alone in finding the official cause of the BA 777 crash at Heathrow (ice in fuel causing both engines to fail at exactly the same moment in two seperate fuel systems) a tad unlikely?

After a working lifetime in software I know wher my money was for that one. Is this the inevitable repeat?

In the BA case the approach to LHR is a Continuous Descent Approach at close to idle idle and clean from 8000ft or higher then at 4 miles out configure for landing drop gear and flap and then spool up the engines to be established on finals at 2 miles.

In this case there was no requirement for a clean CDA to 4 miles with idle engines then spool up the engines for landing configuration. So the only similarity is that both aircraft landed short. The requirement to spool up from idle to landing RPM was only in the LHR case. In this case the aircraft should have been stable in landing configuration at least 6 miles out.

[Speed of Sound]

A couple of local eyewitnesses now saying that the last seconds of the approach were unstable ('very wobbly').

If true I assume they mean roll rather than pitch.

[testpanel]

Pilot error, on a CAVOK day with winds calm.

Radio altimeters (should) have NOTHING to do with this accident:ugh:

[chimbu warrior]

They got about 100 metres further than Lionair did.

[Marc_H]

approx position of the FDR/CVR:

http://666kb.com/i/cfkha8tal274wq0uu.jpg

FDRS - COMPONENT LOCATIONS - 1
EFFECTIVITY
---
A 777 MANUAL
Aft Equipment Center
The flight data recorder (FDR) is in the E7 aft
equipment rack. Access is through a ceiling panel that
is forward of the aft galley.

[twentyyearstoolate]

One possibility is a Erroneous Rad Alt problem like Turkish Airlines in AMS.

Complete BS! A rad alt problem in Sky Clear CAVOK conditions would not affect a visual approach!

An Airspeed indicator and a big window is all you need!

[HighSpeedAluminum]

A/T in SPD mode on finals?

[Pucka]

FPV? skill sets in the lower visual sector poor? FO PF? Korean authority gradients? Fatigue? SFO complacency? Corporate culture? VFR SOP's? The no G/S fear factor...?

[PJ2]

Marc_H, thanks, you're may actually be right in pointing out the location of the DFDR/CVR on the B777. I was going from memory and knowledge of other types.

Regardless, the data for the approach-to-impact will be available.

[Ditchdigger]

Aviation Herald is reporting that there were NO fatalities.

Emergency services reported all occupants have been accounted
for and are alive. Emergency services repeated ALL occupants have been accounted
for in response to media reports that two people have been killed and said,
these reports are untrue. A number of people were taken to hospitals with
injuries of varying degrees.



Accident: Asiana B772 at San Francisco on Jul 6th 2013, touched down short of the runway, broke up and burst into flames (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=464ef64f&opt=0)

[Sand dune Sam]

Check flightaware... Rate of descent from 1400 ft down to 600 ft was around 1300 ft/min.... Stabilised approach criteria anyone?...:ugh:

[sludge]

<1000' fpm.

[B-HKD]

HighSpeedAliminum:

Nothing wrong with A/T in SPD mode on finals on the 777.

It is SOP at various major 777 operators. The A/T is extremely responsive and perfectly capable of maintaining VREF+5 until touchdown under normal ops.

And yes, unlike other Boeing aircraft, where AutoPilot off usually means A/T off, this does not apply to the 777.

[PJ2]

I would be very cautious about anything Flightaware and AVHerald have to offer at this point.

[kungfu panda]

It does seem listening to the ATC conversation on CNN, that prior to the accident there was some technical problem as emergency services had been called prior to the landing.

Maybe I misunderstood, but that's the way it seemed to me.

[Montrealguy]

http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20130706&t=2&i=748236077&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=390&r=CBRE9651TS900

[HighSpeedAluminum]

B-HKD you missed my point. I hope the A/T was in SPD mode. Nothing saying that if it isn't you don't override it. Being qualified on type, SFO visual approaches and culture it's not a given.

[Arrowhead]

28L has no GP and no PAPIs:

Q) KZOA/QLPAS/IV/BO/A/000/999/3737N12223W005
B) FROM: 13/07/06 22:19C) TO: 13/07/08 22:19 EST
E) RWY 28L PAPI U/S

Q) KZOA/QIGAS/I/NBO/A/000/999/3737N12223W005
B) FROM: 13/06/01 14:00C) TO: 13/08/22 23:59
E) ILS RWY 28L GP U/S

[Capt Kremin]

How lucky is that United crew and passengers...,

[A4]

The profiles shown in PaperTigers post indicte (if accurate) that the approach started from a higher altitude than the "normal"other approach. So, possibly, high with idle power, trying to correct to a normal visual picture? An over correction (profile flattens) and then a "dive" back towards profile but overdone with thrust reducing to idle.....sinks in short final.....pulls and hits tail?

Eyewitnesses say it was "wobbly". Possibly a PIO with resultant low power?

Speculation but how else do you manage to smack the tail and take it off 1000' short of the TDZ?

[FLYDHC8]

CNN played an edited audio recording between the Pilot and ATC. The part where other aircraft were communicating with tower after the crew received their landing clearance was cut out.

[B-HKD]

HighSpeedAluminum

B-HKD you missed my point. I hope the A/T was in SPD mode. Nothing saying that if it isn't you don't override it. Being qualified on type, SFO visual approaches and culture it's not a given.

All clear now

[alaslistas]

Looks like he landed er full flaps and full slats not the configuration to extend glide

[Jet Fuel Addict]

What, in this day and age, no one managed to film the crash? :}

I'm amazed!

[Romeo E.T.]

a passenger is giving an interview on CNN at the moment

although it is a passengers comments, he does seem to back up some of the speculation here as well.
1)high on approach
2)rapid descent to try to get back into the slot
3)late realization that the rate of descent might be overcooked
4)application of thrust and harsh pitch change to arrest rate of descend
5)tail gets "hammered" (passengers words) into the ground
6)rearmost passengers are the worst off

[GobonaStick]

Arrowhead - the date would suggest the PAPIs are out as a result of the accident.

[deSitter]

There are in fact 2 fatalities. I heard someone on CNN implying that someone in the very rear was ejected.

[1fm]

Up to 60 unaccounted for, at the moment.

[emil011]

NTSB live press conference: 2 fatalities confirmed, 60 persons unaccounted for

[Airclues]

It does seem listening to the ATC conversation on CNN, that prior to the accident there was some technical problem as emergency services had been called prior to the landing.


No, the call from the Asiana aircraft was after it had crashed. ATC was assuring him that the emergency services were on their way.

http://soberbuildengineer-com.s3.amazonaws.com/AAR214-KSFO-Crash.mp3

[B-HKD]

The clowns at Asiana have yet to release a official press release even aknowledging the accident. Unbelievable.

I suspect the result of this will be a swift decision to employ western DEC's who remember how to land a plane using hand and eyes. Just like their hometown competition did following the Guam crash. Unfortunately, that did not result in any change of culture whatsoever.

There is always hope that this time around they will learn...

In any case, there will no doubt be attempts by the airline to blame the fault on inop ILS and VGSI.

Too bad the average passenger isnt aware that shiny new planes and cabins dont necessarily mean trained and capable pilots.

[misd-agin]

Post 139 -

If the readouts are correct the power must have been very low for the a/c to slow that quickly while descending at 1,300 FPM.

If the 600' data is correct it shows an airplane descending at a higher than usual ROD, speed above Vref and slowing, which would require a power setting significantly less than usual.

[jmmilner]

It's early Sunday morning in Seoul. The folks on duty at HQ are juniors who won't wake their superiors or act before they have been given orders. The culture in the cockpit mirrors the culture of the country as a whole. Respect for your elders and superiors is more important than your own live. While it may work for the country as a whole, it isn't the best approach for flying an aircraft or running a nuclear power plant.

Just checked Asian's flight status for OZ 214 - they say it is still "flying"?

OZ 214 Jul 06. 16:30 - Jul 06. 16:35 Jul 06. 11:15 Jul 06. 11:17 - Flying

[Swedishflyingkiwi]

They at least tweeted an hour ago...
https://twitter.com/asianaairlines/status/353644403098787841

[Alexander Pichler]

According to this link

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/06/us/where-asiana-flight-214-came-to-rest.html?_r=1&

the plane must have left the runway quite soon? The whole runway is 3469m and it went off already before taxi way N which desn't even seem to be a quarter of the runway.

Isn't that an indication of a very low approach speed as well?

[nitpicker330]

The Erroneous Rad Alt theory is not bull***

Yes a competent crew in good weather "should" not be caught out by this known problem BUT Turkish Airlines were in AMS.

Before you call BS do you even know what the Errouneous Rad Alt problem causes and how an unsuspecting crew could be caught out during the approach leading to a severe loss of IAS?

In fact good clear weather could have lulled the crew into a false sense of security and they may well not have noticed idle thrust until too late......

[con-pilot]

A bit steep, no?

Yes, unless you've got enough excess airspeed and power to handle it. Any pilot that has to depend on any automated system or a radar altimeter on a visual approach with the weather at SFO today, has no business being the cockpit of jet aircraft, any aircraft for that matter.

But, we don't know as of yet if it was pilot error or something else, so I'll not speculate as to the cause.

[Cacophonix]

If the readouts are correct the power must have been very low for the a/c to slow

Rollback?

It has happened before. Sure, we just don't know anything yet.

[flyingkiwi]

Agree with nitpicker, if your not flying to stabilized criteria and coming in high, the crew may not realize that a RadAlt failure has commanded idle thrust, this is what it normally does at 25'ra, the crew may then arrest there descent but with no thrust it could cause this situation, just like Turkish in AMS. If the pilots are too reliant on spd mode from the a/t they may not even pick up the problem. Having spend equal time on airbus and 777's I always thought airbus's way of making the pilot reduce thrust the safer option, albeit they could have picked a better word than "retard"

[deSitter]

From this photo of a un-dinged one, you can see how much compressed the rear part of the fuselage is. For the landing gear to be in the bay, impact must have taken place well up near the wing. It's a miracle that the airplane stayed mostly together. Well, it's good engineering.

Where is the L-side engine?? Could it have separated and rolled into the bay farther up?

http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/2/5/4/7/53871_1282891745.jpg

[Lookleft]

Another possible scenario is that the crew selected LVL CHG to get the aircraft down and expected the aircraft to recover through the automatics. Its happened on a few occasions in 777s conducting NPAs (and a 737). With a better outcome obviously.

[Airclues]

nitpicker330

Forgive me if I am wrong, but doesn't the U/S RAD ALT only reduce the thrust if the aircraft is coupled up to an ILS? In this case the G/S was U/S, and the crew were cleared for a visual approach.

Edit;

I'm talking about the 777 here. The Airbus might be different for all I know?

[Capi_Cafre']

Interesting bit on the safety culture at KAL.

http://www.negotiatingsolutions.com/Changing_Airline_Culture.pdf

[Fenwicksgirl]

Typical scene post crash with pax evacuating with carry on luggage.

If any deaths attributable to a delay in evac, would like to think these morons can be taken to task and held accountable. Won't happen but would be good to name and shame!

[wiggy]

doesn't the U/S RAD ALT only reduce the thrust if the aircraft is coupled up to an ILS?

Given it's a "full time" autothrottle on the Triple AFAIK if serviceable it will close the thrust levers at 25 radio in a multitude of modes, not just G/S.

That said I'm still digging around in the manuals to find any dire warnings about the consequences of a single U/S rad alt on the 777 - are there any similarities between the 737 and 777 autothrottle logic or are comparisons with the AMS accident just a red herring??

[CityofFlight]

Having been on many flights, sitting next to pax who can barely get up from a seat without assistance, I've often wondered who is responsible for these pax in the event of such an emergency.

One flight, from LHR to US, the guy next to me could barely use utensils to eat and used his diapers to relieve his bodily functions. (I know this because of odor) and yet he traveled alone. Sitting in an aisle seat, he would have been extremely difficult to crawl over, had there been an emergency evacuation, as he was a plump man.

Kids in car seats, senior citizens and the infirmed, will all become difficult in such evacuations and can impede those who are right next to them. Sadly, I suspect some of the fatalities will be the result of the above.

[barit1]

Remember this one? Landing short (http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19681122-0)on SFO 28L?

History (almost) repeats itself.

[timbob]

My recollection of the 777-200 is that it was a glider when light, this was exacerbated by relatively low maximum flap speeds. If you got behind on a slam dunk from ATC, the greatest risk to a stabilized approach was the inability to select final landing flaps due to flap overspeed issues even with thrust at idle, until later in the approach than I would have liked. My understanding of the ROK operators is that they are highly focused on all FOQA data and that crews are regularly challenged on any deviations. I saw more (with reasonable cause) speed brake useage on the 777 in a month than I previously had seen in 4 years on a 747-4.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Just been watching Fox News - the lady on there announced a few minutes ago that the aircraft 'may have touched down at up to 1,400 feet per second'. I suspect she has not done too much flying in commercial airliners.

[skol]

Irrespective as to whether it contributed to this accident in any way, it's outrageous that an airport the size of KSFO has no electronic or visual G/S.

Temporary VASIS or PAPIS can't have been that expensive until R/W works were complete.

[barit1]

Capi_Cafre' :Interesting bit on the safety culture at KAL.

http://www.negotiatingsolutions.com/...ne_Culture.pdf

Most interesting. 40 years ago Joe Shackford was a friend and colleague in introducing a brand new engine to the US military.

[nitpicker330]

The A/T will still go the idle in the flare if being used without GS on a normal landing.

Erroneous Rad Alt could have caused this.

[misd-agin]

Just been watching Fox News - the lady on there announced a few minutes ago that the aircraft 'may have touched down at up to 1,400 feet per second'. I suspect she has not done too much flying in commercial airliners.



BA 038 was either 1200' or 1500' FPM.

"May have touched down at ..." is still a possibility.

[OD100]

In the event they lacked basic airmanship skills to compute a glide path, it would have been simple enough to dial in the GPS Rnav RNP approach for 28R to give then glide path info, since by all accounts the GS was OTS.

[Toruk Macto]

Worked with Aisiana F/O , he was 7 years on 747 . He admitted he never made a decision or spoke up to cpt ever .

[pakeha-boy]

Cmon...lets try not to sound like the media here......many of us fly into SFO on a daily/weekly basis......for International arrivals coming in from the West/SW,,are cleared for the 28L(visual) arrival,...(some)overshoot 28L AND the 28R Centreline...(ive had several RA,s)(Not all airlines)......desperately manuver back to the 28L centreline......meanwhile,deny they ever got the RA,.........elbows and :mad: to get down and slow down.....then drag it in.....(as Ive seen many times)doing these staggered apps....Ive been witness to Asiana having issues with visual apps to 28L Before......my point??? going into SFO with ldg Rwys to the west,departing Rwys to the Nth..........configuration and speed control are vital.........SFO is well known for its "illusions"....I believe that all the players and pieces are here,it will not be hard to find the "cause"

[Metro man]

Press release now up on the ASIANA website.

Asiana Airlines flight OZ214 (Aircraft Registration HL7742) departed Incheon International Airport
on July 6, 2013 at 16:35 (Korea time) bound for San Francisco. Only July 7, 2013 at 11:28 (Local time)
an accident occurred as OZ214 was making a landing on San Francisco International Airport's runway 28.
There were a total of 291 passengers (19 business class, 272 travel class) and 16 cabin crew aboard.
The majority of the passengers were comprised of 77 Korean citizens, 141 Chinese citizens,
61 US citizens, 1 Japanese citizen, etc. for a total of 291 people.
Asiana Airlines is currently investigating the specific cause of the incident as well as any injuries
that may have been sustained to passengers as a result. Asiana Airlines will continue to cooperate fully
with the investigation of all associated government agencies and to facilitate this cooperation has established
an emergency response center at its headquarters.
At this point no additional information has been confirmed. New developments will be announced as more
information becomes available.

[pattern_is_full]

Just been watching Fox News - the lady on there announced a few minutes ago that the aircraft 'may have touched down at up to 1,400 feet per second'.

To be fair - their tame aviation expert also said "1400 feet per second" - and then corrected himself to "feet per minute."

Weird to see everything aft of the pressure bulkhead basically gone, while the rest of the fuselage is substantially intact except for post-crash fire damage.

I think I see what physically happened here - tail got low and clipped the seawall, surgically removing the tailcone and empennage. WHY that happened - exactly - we shall see.

Happy the survival rate seems quite high - so far.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Use 300ft per mile on either of a visual or non precision approach, as a profile guide?:confused::ugh:

[Ian W]

I'm still :ugh: thinking about the constant comments on the US networks that the aircraft "cartwheeled/flipped over"

I'd imagine that would be news to the PAX and Crew.

Eyewitness accounts are often unreliable. So the aircraft lands short and there is a great cloud of dust - in which the entire tail breaks off - out of the cloud of smoke and debris comes the aircraft - and the fin is not sticking up - therefore it must be upside down - it bounces into more smoke and bits start breaking away. Excitable witnesses could assume - no fin upside down big clouds of smoke and debris 'rolling over' 'cartwheeling' etc.

I think the reports are understandable - but the media is taking them all as gospel even when it is blatantly obvious that an aircraft with wings still attached is unlikely to have 'rolled over'.

[repariit]

# Alexander de Meerkat (http://www.pprune.org/members/294501-alexander-de-meerkat)




Just been watching Fox News - the lady on there announced a few minutes ago that the aircraft 'may have touched down at up to 1,400 feet per second'.
I heard the same report. The reporter Claudia Cowan said a rate of descent1400 FPM, which is 23 FPS. Also, she was referring to rate of descent, not necessarily at touchdown.

[Capt. Inop]

Erroneous Rad Alt could have caused this.

Since manual thrust is just one click away poor airmanship would have to be involved.

[OD100]

Yep, well right of CL. And I suppose that makes sense, in-as-much as it's been established these folks don't have a lick of airmanship if they have to hand fly, so I guess it stands to reason with the winds out of the south (which they were) they can't fly the CL....

[400drvr]

Could it be that the crew was trying to miss the approach lights?

[Clear_Prop]

I don't want to have a dig at the controller on frequency or other stations transmitting, its difficult enough when something like this happens so quickly, but its frustrating listening to the RT clip... the poor guy in the burning emergency aircraft can't even get a conversation going for all the other people stepping on him to announce their go-arounds and what-not. Where's the common sense in that? If you're on final in that sort of situation use your ears and try to entertain SOME degree of situational awareness. Your go around will be evident by the fact you are still aviating in the big blue sky and not skidding around on the ground adding to the detritus of the existing crash... there's no need to step on the guy saying "help! I crashed". A bit of "All stations San Francisco is closed maintain radio silence and contact approach on BLAH" may have helped but you still have to respect the fact things sometimes unfold too quickly for that sort of thing and if you MUST report your go-around to someone, get off the emergency frequency and tell approach, you can't expect the emergency aircraft to start cycling frequencies, so let him have his say because he IS more important than you.

Rant over.

[Setright]

Ref, ''lack of approach guidance as primary cause'', .................................contributory possibly

but in CAVOK daylight.................................................... ...................

the correct thrust setting for approach, and a window to judge the correct aiming point,

is all you need........................................................ ...........................

if you know what you are doing!

:cool:

[CityofFlight]

Portvale...that corroborates a witnesses version.

[dargentw]

Today's airline training teaches pilots everything except HOW TO FLY THE AIRPLANE. Perfect weather , perfect aircraft, only GS u/s CRASH!!!!!! If it is not for those poor people on board it would be funny

[SeniorDispatcher]

I wish people wouldn't make posts like this.

Whatever airmanship the crew of this flight did or didn't exhibit, I just hope it's better than the ethics of posters who see fit to trash other crews (and for that matter entire airlines crews) on public forums on the basis of speculation.

The irony here is that some otherwise well-meaning aviation folks are doing precisely what many condemn the media for doing.

When i heard on the car radio some years ago that TWA 800 was down, I turned off the radio because at the very early stage of things the only thing that was factually known was the aircraft was down--everything to follow to fill the air-time was news anchor babble and rampant speculation by a bevy of "experts" they had on to comment. I turned off the radio this time as well. Sure, the video footage shows certain things, and I wonder about the as-yet-to-be-officially-determined crash sequence, but I'll wait for the NTSB folks to get there and start their work.

[Setright]

I would have to agree with dargentw's comment. [Not in all carriers]

If I had to pick the favourite , in this case, pilot error would be the horse I would be betting to win.

Especially if the horse was born and bread in Korea.

[Rozy1]

"Help, I crashed?" (Post 221)
Seriously?
The tower cab has really, really big windows. The local controller knew what happened.

[BBK]

Dargentw

You say "perfect aircraft". How can you possibly know that?:ugh:

Indigopete

I quite agree with your point regarding speculation. I'm familiar with SFO and the "slam dunk" although in my experience that's more typical on 28R.

We don't know the: aircraft state, descent rate, ILS/PAPI availability, autothrust status, propulsion system status etc etc.

Remember the midair collision over Austria in which a Russian plane was involved. Obviously the Russian crews' fault said the armchair experts except that wasn't the case at all. Far too difficult to wait for some data, better to spout crap straight away.

[SalNichols]

I'm not a pilot, just an SFBay sailor. We've had a nuking westerly for the last week. 20kts has been a LIGHT day. The past 40 hours have been blowing like hell. I haven't seen under 20 kts in two days, and I'm 15 miles N. of SFO.

[Clear_Prop]

Rozy1 with all due respect you seem to have read my post in inverted colours. Apologies for any misunderstanding "Help I crashed" was simply a characterisation for whatever it was the emergency traffic was attempting to communicate with the duty officer on shift on the frequency in use at the point of the incident. I'm sorry if that was not obvious from my wording. I made no reference to the controllers understanding of events as you suggest.

[solowflyer]

Just saw on news witness say gear hit seawall then tail.

[Married a Canadian]

Clear Prop

If that was a Liveatc.net recording then remember it will be excerpts of numerous frequencies at SFO so the overlaps are usually when the site is skipping frequencies.
The online atc sites provide some useful information but not the full picture as they are cramming too much info into one stream.

[Clear_Prop]

Married a Canadian - Thanks for the clarification, I was not aware of that. :)

[J.O.]

MaC is correct. Those sites also use scanner technology that commonly clips the beginning of a transmission.

[Ngineer]

Asiana 214 KSFO Crash Landing ATC - YouTube


Above is another ATC link.

Asiana Airlines plane crashes at San Francisco airport leaving two dead | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world-news/asiana-airlines-plane-crash-lands-at-san-francisco-airport/story-fndir2ev-1226675431955)

This link reports 2 dead, 60 missing.

[last747fe]

Having flown around Asia for 20+ years, many times on a cavok day would have to extend downwind because a korean wouldn't except a visual!

[deSitter]

Here is an excellent onboard report..

Passenger: 'We just jumped off' plane - CNN.com Video (http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/06/blitzer-interviews-sf-crash-passenger.cnn.html)

There were several people ejected, presumably through the broken rear bulkhead.

[repariit]

The apparent fact that Asiana 214's transmissions to ATC made several requests for emergency equipment makes one wonder what he was dealing with that caused him to do so.

[6 DOF]

Just curious - soot marks evident right where the left engine would have passed over the rock wall, but clear on the right side.

[RussRamz]

I noticed this same issue when watching the live footage of the accident. I would imagine the 777 has some sort of split-flap protection and the other wing flaps were lost in the follow-on cluster-f*#%#ed roll-out. Maybe a 777 pilot here could add his thoughts.

[edmundronald]

The passenger in this interview indicates bad performance by first respondents. He sounds pretty credible. Apparently some passengers got thrown off, response was not in a hurry to find and collect them. Bad marks for SFO. Twenty-thirty minutes reaction time to get the injured cannot be blamed on the pilots who at least got the plane on the ground.

Passenger: 'We just jumped off' plane - CNN.com Video (http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/06/blitzer-interviews-sf-crash-passenger.cnn.html)

[galaxy flyer]

Edmund

Have you ever experienced the time compression during a real emergency?

[Rozy1]

I understand Clear Prop. But in that situation, it becomes time critical to get the pax out. Now.
Didn't mean to sound snarky, but the local controller (American term) will send the cfr crews if you ask for them or not. He stayed cool, while coordinating the go arounds, as he should.
But in the aftermath of going through all that, I don't blame the f/o or cappy for trying to call the tower either. There can't be a worse feeling than that.

[Ivanbogus]

Again, these ATC conversations were heard after the accident occured ! My guess is on a poorly and misjudged visual approach, we'll just have to wait and see !

[edmundronald]

Galaxy,

I look forward to reading that part of the NTSB report which deals with the evacuation and response. As far as I'm concerned, whatever their faults, the pilots at least got the plane down in a survivable landing.Looking at those images of the airframe, one wonders exactly what happened *after* the landing.

[galaxy flyer]

Edmund,

You're killing' me...."the pilots got the plane down to a survivable landing"? Really? Like the the plane was trying to kill them, but they managed to wrestle the beast to a survivable landing.

skol

You can't land a "wide body" without an outside glide path? Maybe, I'm old school, but it, VMC, this shouldn't be brain surgery.

[Mimpe]

This is the most detailed footage I can find - it indicates a very heavy impact at or close to the rock wall with extensive debris immediately occurring

Close Up) Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 Crashes On Landing At San Francisco Airport July 6 2013 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/8HoXGBoeRZ8)

[Mic Dundee]

Why did fuselage burn and not wing fuel tanks? Both engines ripped off as well as tail. Looks like a tail strike right on the sea wall... It almost makes you wonder if they flat ran out of fuel on approach.

[Sheep Guts]

My condolences to the family's concerned this is a horrible accident
Lets not jump to conclusions and wait for the NTSB and FAA report on this.
At least the accident will be investigated in the USA and some light will come from the investigation unlike the Asiana Cargo 744 Jeju island crash a few years back which was covered up.

[Mic Dundee]

I think the requests for emergency equipment came AFTER he was down?

[Lost in Saigon]

Why did fuselage burn and not wing fuel tanks? Both engines ripped off as well as tail. Looks like a tail strike right on the sea wall... It almost makes you wonder if they flat ran out of fuel on approach.


They did not run out of fuel because this passenger reports hearing the engine thrust increase just before they hit.

Passenger: 'We just jumped off' plane - CNN.com Video (http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/06/blitzer-interviews-sf-crash-passenger.cnn.html)

[Skystar320]

I like how people start becoming armchair experts, especially people questioning the response by 'emergency workers' sicken me.

Lets just wait till the report comes out. You will find that first responding emergency workers did their best until sufficient help was called.

[mickjoebill]

For a change 24 hour news stations are worth watching, of course it is their aviation assets that are providing the most useful information.:ok:

Bear this in mind if you have a choice of allowing a live news chopper into a major incident.

[Mimpe]

If you listen to the passenger account in post 245, he describes a very late attempt by the flight crew to get additional thrust- it doesnt sound like an engine problem- more a high rate of descent or undershoot/ non stabilised visual approach. I'd also be very interested in hearing crew experienced in this San Francisco approach - posts above are commenting on illusions etc. This ATSB finding will be multifactorial for sure and will likely include a mix of preparation, training, possible recency issues with hand flown approaches, lack of usual vertical navigation cues, fatigue, and possible post crash issues relating timeliness and coordination are already emerging. I suspect the aircraft itself will not have been a substantial contributing factor. The relief is the number of survivors but this figure is yet to emerge.

[cameo]

So, if they did not run out of fuel, how come it was not the wings (where the fuel is) that got burned, but the top of the fuselage? What is so flammable up there that could melt the aluminum skin? I am not a pilot, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.

[PAXboy]

sgs233a
Umm, is it just me, or do the passengers seem to be strolling out of the burning airplane with their carry on luggage?(others posted similar about pax)

Of COURSE the Pax are carrying hand luggage! They are Pax! My guess is that, when the CC see them holding bags - it's easier and faster to get them out of the a/c than to start piling the bags up inside by the door.

Off main topic: The UA885 that was waiting departure on 28L:
After they've finished thinking 'Ouch' and 'lucky they were to the right of the centreline and not the left ...'

Do they have to shut down?
Did they take busses and steps to them, or just tug them back?
How long did they have to wait for a tug to get them back to to a stand?

[avspook]

Unlikely- triple Rad alts cross check each other ( different than the Turkish 737 ) if one fails Auto-switches to next available - it would require a triple simultaneous failure - unannouced - to roll back the thrust - very low probability

[NWA SLF]

Watching video taken by a passenger of the plane and other passengers standing around, I noticed what appears to be a heavy stream of water from the far side of the plane. At this point the fuselage is still intact (meaning no visible fire damage seen from the LH side). Yet the plane ends up like so many with the top of the fuselage burned. Is this likely from fire going through the air ducting from the engines going through the wing into the fuselage top where the ducting for cabin pressurization is located? Is there a fire stop in the pressurization system to prevent a fire from entering through the ducting? Trying to understand how the fuselage burned when several minutes after the crash there is smoke on the RH side but the fuselage is not yet involved.

[SeniorDispatcher]

Off main topic: The UA885 that was waiting departure on 28L:
After they've finished thinking 'Ouch' and 'lucky they were to the right of the centreline and not the left ...'

Do they have to shut down?
Did they take busses and steps to them, or just tug them back?
How long did they have to wait for a tug to get them back to to a stand?

Yes.

Word I had from someone on-scene (at the terminal) was that they were deplaned via portable stairs driven to the taxiway, and bused back to the terminal. They also said the aircraft (now empty) was pushed (backwards) to clear the taxiway, and then back on a gate to unload the baggage/freight. I don't have any info on how long any of all that took, but given the much higher priority tasks being undertaken, I don't think it happened very fast.

[PaperTiger]

I would be very cautious about anything Flightaware and AVHerald have to offer at this point.One might say the same about PPRuNe, no?

Those two sources seem to be doing a better job than many of the "official" sites and ALL of the media.