Qf LAME EBA Negotiations Begin

[Ngineer]

Wasn't having a go NM, your post was very good and precise. Just adding my 2 bobs worth.

[Nassensteins Monster]

No offense taken Ngineer. Your 2 bobs worth was a welcome addition to the debate.

[aveng]

We had the chance for B744 fleet renewal with the B777-200LRs (first delivered 2006) and B777-300ERs, and we didn't take it. Have we learned nothing from NOT buying B777s? The airline is craving fleet renewal, both Domestic and International. It is an insult to our mainline passengers to continue to shuttle them around in clapped out old aircraft. We risk repeating the mistakes of the past - Domestic at least - by flying clapped out ex-Jet* A330s as replacements for the clapped out B767s. And we'll STILL be flogging around reconfigured B744s burning 30% more fuel than a B777 in 10 years time.

Agree totally with your post re A/C purchases but with respect to 777 over A330 I believe Qantas just needs to jump one way or the other and since we already have A380's and A330 and A320 in the group maybe we should lean towards Airbus. Having too many types will kill off Qantas. The new A330's operating domestically with the Panasonic IFE are for the most part coming and going just nicely. It's really just the A330-300's with Rockwell IFE that are pains. :ok:

[airsupport]

Thank you for the posts about the new Licence system, although I think it is a horrid system and IMHO an unacceptable reduction in safety :mad: , why on earth Australia had to be dragged down to the lowest level infuriates me, I believe it was forced on CASA by Qantas. :mad:

Back in 1963 when I started as an Apprentice it was a 5 year Apprenticeship (not 4 years), and we were groomed by the Company to become LAMEs in one trade, we were paid (very low wages but paid) to attend Technical College one day a week, and another half day a week at the Company Training School, the rest of the time we rotated through all the various departments gaining practical experience. In our 4th year we sat for all the basics after some training at the Company School, then in our 5th year were put on one of the Company run type courses.

After all that we could not of course become an LAME while still an Apprentice and/or under age 21, still further in our Company after finally becoming an LAME with one endorsement the Company paid you as an LAME but would NOT let you certify for another 3 months until you had even more experience.

How times have changed, and for the worse as far as safety. :mad:

[Sunfish]

Nassensteins Monster; thank you for your concise and informative post.

[the rim]

we are have a bit of thread drift.......but my two bobs worth,as I remember about 12 years ago or more a couple of reps who were involed in the regs review were telling all "the sky is falling" but not many would listen,untill it was to late..............all history, now lets get back to the topic.....the rim :(

[Propstop]

Airsupport
I fully agree with you re the training we received from the airlines back in the 60’s. Over the years I have used all the skills taught to us during this apprenticeship, and have taught these skills also to other engineers in the third world at various times.
The system today is simply enough training to tick the boxes, buy the right box of cornflakes, and an instant LAME who, in respect to aircraft maintenance, has enough trouble walking without chewing gum at the same time.
The impression I have with our current licensing system is that it is a sop to QF to enable barely trained people to certify aircraft safe for flight after maintenance. I do wonder though is if they are aware that if that aircraft were to have an accident after their certification they are directly in the firing line for criminal charges to be filed against them. I do wonder how much backing they would get from their employer in such a situation. CASA will pursue them to the end of the earth being the criminals they are, in breach of the criminal provisions in the regulations.
It is sad for me, having been in this industry for nearly 46 years and have seen a lot of the world and worked beside some wonderful and very skilled people, now to see everything being reduced to the lowest common denominator to be able to save a cent or two in the dollar, but forgetting the huge cost when there is a major accident, thereby negating all the cents save previously.
It would be too much to hope that QANTAS may one day be run again by someone who is a true visionary with a dream to enable the airline again to be the standard of excellence all others to be measured against………. Dream on Sunshine!!!!!!!

[Red Baron]

AJ just doesn't know when to quit!

On the day when Qantas are meeting with us this news report gets released:

Qantas strikes 'could cost jobs' (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/national/8362677/qantas-ceo-says-strike-action-risks-jobs)

What was that 'Whistle Blowers' hotline number again? I'm feeling threatened and intimidated by the company yet again!

Maintain the rage :E

[airsupport]

we are have a bit of thread drift.......

Are we, not how I see it. :confused:

I have been led to believe that these EBA negotiations (the topic) are not only about money, but about sending work off shore and having LAMEless tarmacs. :(

Surely the downgrading of our once great LAME Licence, the envy of the World, is part of it, Qantas were the ones that forced CASA to change and downgrade the Licence system, now they are trying to send a lot of the maintenance off shore and not use LAMEs on line at all, except when someone ''thinks'' something may be wrong. :mad:

[another superlame]

First Jetstar take some checks away, now Jitconnect follows suit.
If this is going to plan, then that is some funky plan.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

The company is working to a script. They are up to the part where they need to announce drastic cuts to staff numbers and flights in order to transfer these operations to J*. As per their script, unions are supposed to be staging mass walkouts and disruptions.

Problem is, unions are not following the script.

Hasn't stopped them acting like the sky is falling.

[The lens]

Bringing it all to a head......get another parliamentary (Senate) inquiry (with Sen. NX at the helm) to focus on what was left off in May's Senate inquiry/report into Pilot Training & Airline Safety, i.e. item (j). 'Any other related matters'. Maybe that way we'll get to see into the Qan. group's books in detail.

In the meantime, collateral damage increases.

[ACT Crusader]

The lens, there is a parliamentary inquiry into the Bills that Senator X (and the Greens) introduced earlier this year - Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011

Details about the inquiry below
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011 (http://aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/aircraft_crew_2011/index.htm)

Also, yesterday during Senate Estimates hearings Senator Thistlethwaite (the former Unions NSW Dep Secretary) asked the FW Ombudsman about their AIPA and Cabin Crew investigations

[The lens]

So much to read, so little time....

Thankyou, ACT C

[Disengagement]

Been thinking and come up with a solution :ok:
Qantas has stated on numerous occasions that the ALAEA is on a GO SLOW , well never seen this from the Alaea so Qantas must be linking it with the work to rules action.
So Qantas signs off on that the LAMEs don't have to work to rules and anything goes , so in a way its a GO FAST backed by Qantas .Now this will reduce the backlog of work, as just sign it off.;)
I know this does sound STRANGE but maybe management has already given it a pilot run somewhere already. :=:=:=

:E:E:E

[SpannerTwister]

What's happening Fed Sec ?

All action off for three weeks.

Julia put the hard word on the association ?

ST

[sfde]

Lets wait and see how the media report this one and what spin Qantas will come up with. Oh but the damage is already done comes to mind.
Great work again from the guys at Bexley take the wind out of the attack. Besides I could do with some extra folding stuff coming up to Xmas.

[airsupport]

Hey Steve, what are you doing, trying to give poor old Olivia a migraine. ;)

How will she spin this. :rolleyes:

[TIMA9X]

Qantas union calls off industrial action, for now

"Our pay claim of three per cent is modest and below inflation," Steve Purvinas said.
“Our real focus has always been on job security. As Qantas relocates to Asia, which they have made no bones about, the jobs of Australian licenced engineers will slowly be made redundant.
“We simply want to prevent a situation where all heavy maintenance for the Qantas fleet is done in cheap Asian facilities to lower standards," he said.

Read more: Qantas union calls off industrial action, for now (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-union-calls-off-industrial-action-for-now-20111020-1m9be.html#ixzz1bIRH7KDw)

trying to give poor old Olivia a migraine. Chuckle, Good move SP, OW may now be considering retirement...:E

[Disengagement]

Well done Steve, OT at 4 times rather than double time , Thats a win in my books :ok:

[King William III]

My oh my, how on earth are they going to get all those aeroplanes back in the air…especially given as they've already changed one of the 767's into it's new company's US registration………


Nice one Steve, :ok: this will fluster the hairdo somewhat!! not to mention take the heat off until the senate hearings fire up all burners………..:D

[buttmonkey1]

your move gayboy

[Ngineer]

No compromise on job security fedsec. Stick to your guns, you have the backing of the workforce behind you. :ok:

[prairiegirl]

CHECK!

my faith is restored.

[reacher]

Excellent move gents.

Now offer to work with the company IOT get those grounded, err retired, errr.... aircraft in the air and restore the flight schedule back to normal.....

[Millet Fanger]

Nice work, Fed Sec.

Take the heat off the LAMEs and give Qantas what they asked for (not what they actually want). Let's see who has been telling 'porkies'!

Also allows some clear air so that the focus can go back on the the poor job management has been doing of running the airline, and how greedy they have been. AGM should be interesting!

[V-Jet]

Nice article here:
'Distrust' at Qantas about future, says Evans | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/breaking-news/distrust-at-qantas-about-future-says-evans/story-e6frg90f-1226172160519)

Murdoch Press!!

[Acute Instinct]

Parrots are known to spiral into unfortunate states of psycological depression when they are confined to their cages without stimulation for extended periods. The most obvious and predominant sign that the creature is suffering, is an uncontrollable urge to pluck or pull out their feathers. If left untreated, the parrot will pluck so uncontrollably and severely, that its appearance becomes quite hideous indeed.
This condition has unfortunately been sighted recently in a human parrot. A compulsive liar in fact. Down the tweezers Polly, before you do irrevocable damage to your brows, and our airline.

[Ticking Timebomb]

'The feathers are flying'
I guess you are making refence to the mouthpiece's latest fahion statement. The fixed raised left eyebrow. It is a sign that even she is in disbelief of the lies she's spruking.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Can anyone get the Sky News thing I did today up here? Was about 1615. It explains a lot.

[ACT Crusader]

Where's TIMA9X and all his high tech videos?

[TIMA9X]

SyFdgW0W46Q


sky news, (on the case) just got this from the ABC..... is this OK? :8

She's gone for the French Sailor look....

[Just Relaxin]

Steve

Can't get the link for the clip on Sky News at 16:15 but can tell you that I watched it and in my opinion, your answers came across calmly and specifically answering everything that the extreme right wing, big end of town and Coalition supporter Spiers put to you on behalf of Qantas. Well done.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The live stuff is great for us because they can't cut and shape what you say. If we can get posted at all it would be good for members to see. TIMA9X PM me if you can't source at all.

cheers

[mcgrath50]

Check OW body language on "Certainty for employees"! :hmm:

[Going Nowhere]

Looking down and to the right...

Body Language - guide to reading body language signals in management, training, courtship, flirting and other communications and relationships (http://www.businessballs.com/body-language.htm)

This is a creative signal but not a fabrication - it can signal that the person is self-questioning their feelings about something. Context particularly- and other signals - are important for interpreting more specific meaning about this signal.

Eyes body language (http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/eyes_body_language.htm)

Looking down and to the right can indicate that they are attending to internal emotions.

Maybe OW doesn't buy everything she's being fed? :suspect:

[RATpin]

Good one JR,there I was thinking that the other "Team" was running the show.
That would be the same team in charge during the year that must not be mentioned.

[TIMA9X]

iRVyMYojKTU



SP they can't twist this, it's on the record, well done mate.

and I noted OW says "it will have an impact on innocent "bystandards" whatever that means.:rolleyes: She's a news editors delight....

[TIMA9X]

rfyjMAQ6yNY

Guys and girls, sorry to be a bit slow with the uploads, there has been so many today re Qantas I can't keep up with them all.
This is one of the many Sky News stories featuring the "pop star" AJ himself. Take it from me, he and his mates are not going over too well this week with the media I sense they are tired of him and OW's bully tones, always in the negative.

[RATpin]

Hey JR,your not really a Minister for Mascot staff member are you?

[Sunfish]

I'm sure your Fedsec has told you, but you know that QF management wants an all out confrontation, which you aren't giving them.

Be very careful during this Three week break because my guess is that Qantas will try and provoke you by making an example of a few members. The obvious way to do it would be for them to stand down One or Two Engineers for "going slow".

[Millet Fanger]

I appreciate all of your input Sunfish, on this thread and others, but I have to pick you up on the "go slow" notion. I have never "gone slow" or been directed to "go slow" by any ALAEA rep. What I have done is followed Qantas' work procedures "to the letter"!

Now most engineers know that following Qantas' procedures is an inefficient way of working. However, Qantas choose to employ managers that put down, in writing, "go slow" procedures and then stand around trying to catch you out not following them.

The system is designed to fail!

[kotoyebe]

Most of us, me included, thinks that Ben Sandilands brings much needed truth and common sense to the current dispute. So if most of us agree with him, do we also go along with his thoughts that we can't win the job security clauses the 2 main unions are seeking?

Basically his argument is that if a company's owners and management decide that they want to destroy their company, it's their right to do so.

What exactly are the Engineers' job security claims, and is there a middle ground that can be reached? If there isn't a middle ground, then the only conclusion I can see if the company won't concede something, and they don't look like they will, is arbitration. This will just give you the pay rises, and nothing else. And all this pain seems pointless.

I'm not suggesting to bend over and take it. Far from it. You guys are 100% right in your fight. But as Ben says, if the company is stupid enough to want to blow everything on a "luxury single aisle Asia based airline", and a low cost airline everyone hates, then what can you do? It's their train set.

Don't get me wrong, while not an engineer, my future and retirement is tied to this once great company too, and with the current management I am not too positive about that future.

Any thoughts, in particular from the FedSec?

[peuce]

I don't want to suggest that you ease up either, as I don't know the whole story or strategy, however, from experience in another Industry, in a similar situation .... the troops fought like terriers to oppose an illogical new management direction.

After much time banging their heads against many brick walls and not receiving any outside support, they came to the conclusion that management were legally entitled to do what they wanted with the company, and the best way forward was to ensure the troops received the best possible outcome from the new arrangements.

By then, management were keen to have all the white noise removed ... and generous entitlements were negotiated.

You can only go so far in saving Management, and the Company, from themselves. There comes a point, and I don't know if that point has been reached in this situation yet, when you need to ask yourself ... how can we make the most out of this bad situation.

[BoeingMachine]

Well done Steve and the ALAEA,

Just watched the interview on ABC 24 news. I hope that a lot of the Australian public have the opportunity to watch this one.
I hope that some agreement can be reached soon before the next world event/erupting volcanoe/ flood/ tsunami/high oil price/ etc, becomes the next excuse for the big Q to cry poor!! (whilst they line their pockets)

Keep up the good work,
Boeingmachine

[Short_Circuit]

I am somewhat confused as why the government wants to step in to a dispute that is sanctioned by FWA and take the switch to the aircraft engineers in the guise of national interest, when a few months ago Nurses in NSW went "out" but no mention of intervention also now the NSW fire brigade is in dispute, no mention of government action. :confused::confused::confused:

[Anulus Filler]

I am somewhat confused as why the government wants to step in to a dispute that is sanctioned by FWA and take the switch to the aircraft engineers in the guise of national interest, when a few months ago Nurses in NSW went "out" but no mention of intervention also now the NSW fire brigade is in dispute, no mention of government action.

Looks like the bottles of grange and upgrades don't originate from these government departments. :ok:

[check1-2]

Friday Flyer - 21 October 2011...

Keep Qantas Flying - Home (http://www.keepqantasflying.com.au/)

:ugh:

[ACT Crusader]

I am somewhat confused as why the government wants to step in to a dispute that is sanctioned by FWA and take the switch to the aircraft engineers in the guise of national interest, when a few months ago Nurses in NSW went "out" but no mention of intervention also now the NSW fire brigade is in dispute, no mention of government action. :confused::confused::confused:

Gillard has hosed "govt. intervention" down. Also the nurses and firefighters disputes are not being played out on the front page of the paper every second day, so the "public" - or media - don't have the same expectation on govt.

Also the politics of disgruntled travelers are disgruntled voters. Seen the polls lately..... :)

[airsupport]

Gillard has hosed "govt. intervention" down. Also the nurses and firefighters disputes are not being played out on the front page of the paper every second day, so the "public" - or media - don't have the same expectation on govt.

Also the politics of disgruntled travelers are disgruntled voters. Seen the polls lately.....

True, however given that it is Qantas causing all the trouble, and NOT the ALAEA, you would think Julia and Labor would be using all the media to point this out, so the Public (Voters) will know that it is NOT the Unions (read Labor at election time) causing all the trouble. :confused:

[sfde]

I for one think enough is enough. The government need to step in. Deport the problem back to Ireland.

[airsupport]

I for one think enough is enough. The government need to step in. Deport the problem back to Ireland.

So you think the Welsh Lady should deport the Irish Problem to save the Australian Icon. :uhoh:

Good idea.......... :ok:

[Anulus Filler]

They're all coming out of the wood work

The West Australian:'Qantas row close to hurting economy: Abetz'

Qantas row close to hurting economy: Abetz - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/10757044/qantas-row-close-to-hurting-economy-abetz/)

[Sunfish]

Senator Abetz received, and declared, an upgrade from premium economy to Business class 28 June - 10 July SYD - LAX and return by Qantas.

Good little investment, that.

[clotted]

Also the nurses and firefighters disputes are not being played out on the front page of the paper every second day, so the "public"

Incorrect. Nurses and firefighters come under the State industrial system and therefore are not subject to FWA (aka Julia's system for industrial chaos). That is why the bus drivers were able to wildcat strike last week in Sydney with impunity. That wasn't and didn't need to be PIA.
FWA provides that the government can step in in the national interest. When that test is satisfied, is only known to them.

[ACT Crusader]

Incorrect. Nurses and firefighters come under the State industrial system and therefore are not subject to FWA (aka Julia's system for industrial chaos). That is why the bus drivers were able to wildcat strike last week in Sydney with impunity. That wasn't and didn't need to be PIA.
FWA provides that the government can step in in the national interest. When that test is satisfied, is only known to them.


clotted - what's incorrect about saying these NSW disputes aren't being played out on the front pages of the news adnauseum?

I am aware that the Fair Work system doesn't cover these disputes, but regardless of whether something falls within the State or Commonwealth IR systems, it doesn't stop politicians of all flavours (and levels) making noise about it and showing "concern".

For example back when Oprah came to Sydney, the MUA was "threatening" action on the ferries (another NSW IR system covered workforce). That didn't stop Gillard and Evans and a couple of others getting excited and making public noise. If it's "important enough" (ie in the news and people talking about) then they will "get involved". I'm not talking about intervention under the Fair Work Act, just being out there, talking about it.

Government intervention can take many forms both legal and non-legal.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Farming out was Qantas option (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/farming-out-was-qantas-option-20111023-1memg.html)

I would say that going by this advert today there is no was they are .


ALG is currently seeking expressions of interest for a variety of roles at Melbourne Airport


roles may include

Baggage Handling
Customer Service
Cleaning
Aircraft workers
Candidates must be able to obtain a aviation security check and have a current drivers licence
We place the right candidates in the right jobs — Aviation Labour Group (http://www.aviationlabour.com/)

[600ft-lb]

Essental polling reveals Qantas is losing the public confidence battle | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/essental-polling-reveals-qantas-is-losing-the-public-confidence-battle/story-e6frfq80-1226175373949)

Polling figures released today reveal almost three-quarters of voters believe Qantas CEO Alan Joyce is over-paid.

Qantas was most to blame according to 36 per cent of those polled, compared to 13 per cent who blamed the workers. However, 37 per cent admitted both were to blame.


Just over 60 per cent of those polled agreed the Qantas reputation was being damaged by plans to cut jobs and move some operations to Asia.


Labor voters in particular were critical of the airline but 56 per cent of Coalition voters also condemned management plans.


So there it is, probably the most balanced thing to come on news.com.au that fact that it's independent of spin and proof that not everyone in this country is defined by what they are forced to read as what passes as 'news' in this country.

Just remember when you're reading the comments section, the editors or the website are the ones deciding which comments get posted, don't take it as a sample of the community, take it as the angle news ltd are trying to portray for each story.

[airsupport]

Just remember when you're reading the comments section, the editors or the website are the ones deciding which comments get posted, don't take it as a sample of the community, take it as the angle news ltd are trying to portray for each story.

Sadly that is very true. :(

Weeks ago when they were just following the Qantas PR spin I submitted several very polite comments trying to tell the true story but they were never posted, now that they are reporting the whole thing more fairly there are more evenly balanced comments getting through too. :rolleyes:

[Ngineer]

Essental polling reveals Qantas is losing the public confidence battle | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/essental-polling-reveals-qantas-is-losing-the-public-confidence-battle/story-e6frfq80-1226175373949)


A very clear, damning and unbiased message. The numbers speak for themselves.

I am sure that if it was run by a company sponsored party, it probably would have cost them 10 times as much, and produced the wrong results along with the wrong solutions.

Until we get back on track to what this airline was once about we are slowly headed down the gurgler.

[Millet Fanger]

Every decent industrial dispute needs a villain, but it seems Qantas CEO Alan Joyce's efforts to cast unions as corporate wreckers are backfiring badly.The opening para in an article on The Drum.

Congratulations Fed Sec and team! It seems that the Aussie public are not mugs. They have voted, substance wins out over spin (and $10m).

Keep on doing what you are doing, the end-game is approaching.

[Ngineer]

Keep on doing what you are doing, the end-game is approaching.

Can't help but feeling that AJ is being used by GD and LC to drive their own personal agendas. I think that this will all end in bitter tears for someone.

[ohallen]

Lets hope that it is:
1. GD does his (as in Rat Dollars) money.
2. AJ gets a one way trip back to Ireland.
3. BB goes to work in a blanket factory.
4. OW gets a job with a hairdresser

and the Rat goes back to the workers with some recognition that change may be required, but that it is based on commercial sense and not some throw of the dice against the odds.

[Short_Circuit]

I have the perfect solution that AJ himself could not refuse,
Pay all LAMES, regardless of licenses & shift, the average $170K he said we earn, then we take a 5% pay cut at that rate. We will all be done and dusted EA signed off tomorrow before the AGM. :ok:

[LandIT]

I submit that one of the reasons QANTAS is doing so badly is the incidents they keep having which delay customers and make people nervous about flying!

How many engine shutdowns (flames or not) does it take before the travelling public start thinking something is rotten and look for alternative flights - not even for the fear of crashing but because of the potential inconvenience factor of it.

Surely the news that a QANTAS flight is not really going all the way (through Bangkok or HongKong) is not what Aussies want to hear.

When a 747 is at the absolute limit of its range (DFW-BNE-SYD) and has to sometimes leave passengers or luggage behind or divert, even when most of the passengers don't really want to go via BNE anyway - how dumb do you have to be to recognise that is not a good position to be in as a premium airline offering a supposedly superior service. If you were running this service, would you really start out loading the 'plane to "full" or would you build up towards the limit after experience? Duh!

Then, if the travelling public can see that your airline is pissing off its workers (not just one area, but nearly all areas of staff) to the degree that action will sometimes be taken which will cause delays and rescheduling, would this be the straw that breaks the camel's back to cause you to book an alternative airline for your coming trip?

If the fares on QANTAS are say ~25% greater than the competitor airlines (but you are in the frequent flyer programme and have always flown Q and the timetable suits and connections etc) and now the on-time performance is suffering and the engine incidents keep happening, are you now willing to pay that premium?

OneWorld, or e NoWorld?

[bandit2]

Well said LandIT, I know we`ve all been saying that but? It`s the same issue`s that upset people. I talked to a 30 something Aussie girl who is married to an American, the other day. She said `she always flew QF out of Aust loyalty back to USA` she is now looking else where due to everything going. I explained the employee`s perspective & consequently she was in disbelief.
I also talked to a Frequent Flyer member with over a million points today, same story. Not happy! Trying to use his points was all too hard. He said he wanted to use them & move elsewhere. Something has got to change!

[Sunfish]

The same characters who were behind the APA bid appear to still be bent on acquiring Qantas.

The thinking seems to be that if the shareholders can't be bought out (the APA bid), then perhaps they can be driven out by a collapsing share price and a perceived to be risky corporate strategy coupled with so called industrial mayhem and the claims of "unsustainability".

They seem to believe that "perceptions are everything" - a marketing point of view, and that the Qantas brand encapsulates all the value in the company. In other words, the product can be delivered by trained monkeys; the roo on the tail generates the profit. Once the company is private, you get the government to void the Qantas sale act, collapse International and Domestic. Rebadge Jetstar into mainline, and go merrily on your way. A concerted marketing campaign would support this and no one would be the wiser.

Rip out the cash, replace it with expensive debt and flog it back to the share market as "New improved Qantas" a few years later.

It was suggested to me by a broker that if the share price can be driven down another, say, 40% (say around 90 cents), you could make a bid to shareholders at share price plus 30% premium (say $1.30) and take it private quite nicely.

[blubak]

Just had a read of some facts on the keepqantasflying.com info page,it says a LAME earns $150,000 including overtime,it then says we work a 38hr week(true),however if we work overtime to earn $150,000 we no longer work a 38hr week-they conveniently forgot to mention that part.
It goes on to say that their maintenance costs are too high compared to the rest of the world,it seems very obvious by now that a LOT of maintenance is done on overtime so no wonder the cost is so high but guess what!!,when no overtime is done there is suddenly a 60,000hr backlog of maintenance & aircraft have to be grounded.
IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG HERE??
I also read that the ALAEA are refusing to change work practices,well that is a new 1 to me.
STEVE,i am sure you have got a few facts to present to the many readers here on these issues & just on a slightly separate issue,is there any further update on negotiations & when is the next meeting with the company?
Keep up the good work.

[SpannerTwister]

I have the perfect solution that AJ himself could not refuse,
Pay all LAMES, regardless of licenses & shift, the average $170K he said we earn, then we take a 5% pay cut at that rate. We will all be done and dusted EA signed off tomorrow before the AGM. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Best post ever !

Fed Sec, This should be a full-page advert in all the newspapers !!

Post it to your Facebook wall, share on all the social media you can, post on all the forums you frequent (OCAU / Whirlpool / AusGamers / AussieBloggers) wherever you hang out !!!

ST

[Ngineer]

It was suggested to me by a broker that if the share price can be driven down another, say, 40% (say around 90 cents), you could make a bid to shareholders at share price plus 30% premium (say $1.30) and take it private quite nicely

Or at that level the government can step back in, buy the company back and make a tidy profit. The government in power would get good kudos from such a savvy transaction.

I also read that the ALAEA are refusing to change work practices,

Wow. All those years of work change and thats the thanks we get. No compromise on job security clauses. Time is on our side, and we have plenty of it.:ok:

[Jethro Gibbs]

The governments got no money and anyone thinking the employees are going to buy and run it are Dreaming.
Need to get Real.

[ACT Crusader]

Ngineer - unlikely given they are going to have to find savings (not spend more) from somewhere to back up their public commitment to bring the Budget back to surplus 2012-13...

[Ngineer]

Of course, what was I thinking. Only Kerry Packer would have be savvy enough to carry out such transactions.

You only get one Alan Bond in your lifetime.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Well thats not going to happen.

[blackbook]

live link to agm
Live: Qantas AGM | Qantas Boss Alan Joyce and Unions Face Off (http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/live-qantas-troubles-come-to-a-head-at-agm-20111028-1mmrp.html)

[blackbook]

http://www.media-server.com/m/p/6as7a3jj

[blackbook]

just finished

[Disengagement]

Lets invite Jack Tilburn as a EBA negotiator :D:D:D

[Sunfish]

Loyalty at Qantas is a one way street.

I say Fcuk em.

[another superlame]

So, nothing happened.
3% and back to work. I think Julia,Anthony and Marty might get involved now.
That is if the big boys driving the ship say so.

Unfortunately a few hundred passionate staff members and shareholders don't really have the muscle required to change the ways of the arrogant smug pricks running the show.

[Jethro Gibbs]

So, nothing happened What a Shock should have left stoppages in place not going to get anything for calling them off for 3 weeks AJ has given everyone the finger this was always going to happen these guys are going nowhere.
As for Loyalty at Qantas there is None you are just a number nothing more no matter what your skills and years service are you could be gone tomorrow and Qantas could not care less.

[One Eye Redundant]

I really don't understand why they won't include the job security clauses. The way these clowns are running the place, there won't be a Qantas left to honour them.
Maybe we can negotiate a better redundancy deal and get out before they fleece the place and leave nothing behind.

[Roger that.]

So what happens now Steve?

[Disengagement]

AGM what a joke !!!!! I AM THE ARMY OF ONE :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

The AGM is irrelevant.

PIA, that is where its at.

[Short_Circuit]

I could not go to the AGM because of work, but saw on TV that AJ said "QF international lost 200 Million Bucks last year. I thought he earlier said that 2011 2012 QF international would loose 200 Million Bucks. Did QF or will Qf ???

Opps, he should keep track of his lies. :ugh:

[unseen]

Did. .

[busboy330]

I am very loyal to the 'roo on the red tail. I am not at all loyal to greedy, hypocritical mofos known as (mis)management. The sooner they go, the better! Then we can rebuild the airline to the greatness it once was.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Don't you get it they are not going and employees will not be doing any rebuilding why would you rebuild a house you do not own .

[the rim]

hey busboy 330....rebuilding the airline to greatness all for it BUT did you watch or see the AGM...mate its not going to happen we played into their hands see my post on other threads.....but sorry we have to be very mindfull how we run the rest of this race...The Rim

[Clipped]

Have never seen and heard such acts of arrogance to those who 'own' the Airline.

Clifford's self-importance is breathtaking. He must hate having to speak to mere mortals.

For the rest of that Board, what a sorry bunch. Told when to speak and muzzled otherwise. The discusions around the Qantas Boardroom must be just a one way sham, followed by lots of tea drinking.

Namblard, when allowed to speak, didn't answer the question. Instead, rambled on in some incoherent European mumbo jumbo. Obviously, that exclusive Board club, scratch mine and I'll scratch yours, is alive and well post GFC. Director's fees of several hundrd thousands each, money well spent!

There is no hope.

[600ft-lb]

All that was witnessed today was an example of corporate Australia in action.

It had to go this way as a reaffirmation of their ideals of looking after your own and continuation of the gravy train. It's totally endemic in this country, as long as there is inflation and growth in the world everyone is happy. Institutional investors are YOUR Superannuation fund. They have no choice but to invest in the ASX200, billions and billions of your dollars. They are staffed by corporate knobs, pointing their funds votes toward their corporate knob mates, voting on each others corporate knob mates remuneration packages, coined by their other knob mates consultant firm who decides what an appropriate package should be based on.. It's as I have coined it in the past, a complete corporate circle jerk. The perfect system that once you're inside of, life is great. It's not hard to become a multimillionaire when all you have to do is get the job and turn up.

We just witnessed it today like never before because we actually paid attention. Normally these formalities go by without any news coverage, no normal people coverage, nothing. Formalities to suit a law and rubber stamp what they are doing anyway.

It's a bit like selling a house, being a real estate agent in boom times is the best job in the world, everyone wants to buy and the houses can't be flipped quick enough. When the music stops though, watch the losers fall out of the industry.

But it does seem the management, those who won't pay the rampies an extra $1 an hour, $21 instead of $20 or

who won't guarantee that Qantas branded aircraft won't continue to be maintained by Qantas branded engineers (if not, why not ?? - some plan in the works) or

won't guarantee that Qantas branded aircraft won't continue to be flown by Qantas branded pilots (if not, why not ?? - some other plan in the works).

If they won't cede to the above mentioned, ask why not. If the answer is as obvious as it seems then what's left then, but to fight ?

2 companies to look up to see this type of corporate knob in action. Pacific Brands and The Colorado Group.

[Captain Gidday]

Institutional investors are YOUR Superannuation fund. They have no choice but to invest in the ASX200, billions and billions of your dollars.

Actually, you do have a choice. Instead of the default option, or any premixed option, just put your super savings in cash and/or fixed interest [perhaps it might be called bonds in some funds]. Doing this, the institutional investor / CEO / Board Club does not get to play with your money, except in a very minor and unfulfilling [for them] way. Do this and you've sent your own two fingered salute. You are saying "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more". Or... up yours, Boards CEO's and institutions everywhere.
Vote with your feet. I have. They can take their crap-shooting stock market and shove it.
[And the best way you can annoy a particular company you own shares in is to sell all your shares except one. With one share you can still attend AGMs if you so choose. Make sure you opt to receive all the paper Annual Reports etc. It costs as much to deal with a shareholder with one share as to deal with a shareholder with 50 million shares].

[Take five]

Recipe for the future.

1. NO Higher Duties.

How many people are working in an acting position, without it being added to their base rate (for superannuation purposes etc.)

2. NO Overtime.

Why does the company require overtime to acquit normal workloads and keep the aircraft flying.

[another superlame]

50% of jobs gone next year if this keeps up. It might be a threat, but I reckon they would carry it out. And if it happens the travelling public would have no support for engineers or pilots.

I know some fools would fight until the company went under or they lost their job, but some people still need to feed a family and pay off a mortgage.

If all you have licence wise is a 744 or 767 then your career in Australia is over if you lost your job.

At least having a 738 or 330 gives you some very minor job prospects. Even thinking of moving to the desert wouldn't be an option as they normally require at licences on at least one of the types they operate.

Unfortunately things are going to change whether you like it or not.

And as I wrote yesterday about the AGM being a bloodbath or not, it was an absolute walk in the park for the board, no blood in sight.

[VBPCGUY]

Time to make decisions for what is right by yourselves and your families, not some union with a puffed out chest which at the end of the day will still have a job while you wont, also think about being employee by another airline after being involved with industrial action at Qantas, wouldnt sit well with a future employer.

[MACH082]

Time to make decisions for what is right by yourselves and your families, not some union with a puffed out chest which at the end of the day will still have a job while you wont, also think about being employee by another airline after being involved with industrial action at Qantas, wouldnt sit well with a future employer.

What a load of crap. The majority of the guys will strike regardless and if you don't, and the company does fold you will never work in your profession in Australia again. You will be labelled a scab.

If Qantas does fall, someone will replace it and there will be jobs. Having said that I doubt it will come to that.
*

[qf 1]

better to live on your knees,you cowards.Grow a spine,if you do nothing you may as well move to Asia because that's where your wage level will be at,at least the cost of living is less in the Asian countries.

[another superlame]

So Qantas goes under you lose your $120k LAME position and you wait for another company to come along and take you on. That is a nice fairy tale.

Go and speak with the ex-Emirates LAMEs who were shafted and now work for Jetstar. After taking a $50k pay cut and starting at the bottom of the ladder, yes they have a job, but it is not the same.

And if Qantas did sack all its engineers, you will find that every job you apply for will have a lot of your old work colleagues applying for it as well. It is not a simple as you think it will be.

JHAS would likely do OK out of it as it picked up QFs work, but once again speak to JHAS employees, they are gettiing shafted there as well.

Believe it or not, having a LAME spot with QF is a good gig. Having 1600 LAMEs all similarly qualified, all applying for the same jobs in the real world will be a huge awakening for those who have never had a job outside of QF.

Talking about scabs, well QF did employ some ex scabs into base a few years ago, and what did the main work force do? Nothing. Nothing at all.

[Clipped]

You have a RIGHT, to undertake PIA in an attempt to bargain in GOOD FAITH. Imagine living without that RIGHT.

Management's recklessness is outstanding. But, they know the political powers would intervene if thousands of jobs were culled. The media, public and political fallout would be enormous.

It would take a very brave Board to oversee that.

Instilling fear in their own employees is just as reckless.

Get off your knees and stand up.

[NewPiper]

MACH082,

Its not 'if' but when QF LH gets restructured. However, 'if' they rightly shutdown some large segments of QF ops due to aggressive union tactics, then you are dreaming if your exit strategy is that 'someone else will come along and there will be plenty of jobs'.

All of you guys will be blacklisted for years. Any new start up would rather pay a third party contractor more money than hire an ex union member who contributed to this whole mess in the first place.

:ugh:NP

[Clipped]

Haven't finished yet.

Believe it or not, having a LAME spot with QF is a good gig

Your gig is working for a bunch of pr##ks who can lie to and about you whilst staring you in the eye.

If you're unclear about your future prospects, 'the good gig', WE do not feature in their future plans. No gig with Jetstar, Fantasia, 787s, 320neos, IFE and very probably heavy maintenance. Now add maint-on demand, cat A certifiers and an ever diminishing Qantas fleet and not a customer airline contract in sight. How many jumbos will still be around next year?

Is this the good gig you're talking about or is it the job security we're fighting for?

[Arnold E]

All of you guys will be blacklisted for years. Any new start up would rather pay a third party contractor more money than hire an ex union member who contributed to this whole mess in the first place.

Hmm, dont think so, as you can see from what is happening here, managements these days have little or no regard for unions or the people in them and will simply hire the number required at the cheapest price. They most certainly are not going to pay more to get what they need .:ugh:

[Short_Circuit]

AJ has indicated the direction they (the Board) are taking Qantas in his threat made yesterday.
They will shrink Qantas by 50%, that is what they already have planned and that is what they will be pursuing in the next 12 months.
It has nothing to do with unions or pay rises and never has been. The 3% was all we were going get regardless of PIA or not. They will cull QF to clear the way for Jetstar and Q-Asia to take over international flying and leave Qantas domestic only.

This union push is about jobs in Australia for Australians and keep Qantas Australian.

To Save Our Airline.

[NewPiper]

Arnold,

The point is, any new start up, including a new QF LH start up would 'rather' pay a third party contractor more than a blacklisted ex union member. I did not say they 'will' pay more, because the reality is, they won't need to!

Your jobs including those of the Pilots are not irreplaceable. It may take some time to replace those skilled positions, but 98% of shareholders have deep pockets and will fund whatever it takes to change the culture.

I can just see a lot of expat Pilots and LAME's working overseas hoping that you guys continue to dig yourselves and even bigger hole. Then, when its too late, you will finally see the light and realise what you have lost.

:ugh:NP

[saintgeorge]

I agree with another superlame and VBPCGUY, surely now it is time to do a deal with the company. If we keep going on like this we will loose whatever support we still have with the public and the Government. We are playing into their hands, they don't mind getting rid of more of us and growing their Asian Airlines, they will simply blame us and sell the story beautifully. Its time we do a deal with the company and explian to the public that we would rather have our jobs and some control over the safety and maintenance of our Airline then loose our jobs and watch it all go to ****. Don't continue to fight for the unacheivable at such a high cost. It's not worth it. Lets protect our jobs and our future.

[Clipped]

Dear Saint

Your defeatist sense belies your name.

Its time we do a deal with the company

What the hell do you think the negotiating team has been trying to do. For over a year.

Please tell us what you're prepared to accept, so this deal can be done. And is this the company offer?

[JALurker]

Just a question

It would seem to me that the one tangible asset which Qantas has that cannot be shifted offshore are the routes and Landing rights to and from Australia.

Are these fully transferable to any entity which Qantas chooses?

Maybe a line of attack to consider. Without routes and landing right Q-Asia or whatever it is called would be stuffed.

[Talkwrench]

saintgeorge

in relation to your comments:

we would rather have our jobs and some control over the safety and maintenance of our Airline then loose our jobs and watch it all go to ****

Lets protect our jobs and our future.

Do you understand what management want to do to us with this EBA?

Do you understand what the ALAEA is trying to achieve with this EBA?

What do you think the unfettered introduction of the 'A' Licence is going to do to "our jobs and our future" ?

If you want a redundancy package, thats all fine and dandy, but what if you DON'T want a redundancy package? How do you know you'll be one of the lucky ones that don't get a tap on the shoulder as the 'A' Licences ramp up and the B1's/B2's ramp down?

Do you work in Line, Base or Heavy?

[Ticking Timebomb]

re It's now time to deal.

And have a job for 2 more years. We are dealing with vindictive pricks who will be after retribution when you aren't protected anymore. WAKE UP TO YOURSELF. This is your only chance for a possible future at Qantas.
Whilst ever you are under PROTECTED industrial action they cannot sack you. Keep the work to rule, no OT on days off, pull up a chair and wait by the river bank.
It would be rather interesting then for anyone to step in for following Qantas' own rules and spending time with your families.

[airsupport]

How on Earth can it be that Qantas push through a 71% payrise for their CEO one day then the next day he shuts the Airline down. :mad::mad::mad:

[The lens]

If Betsy (you know, Baaaaaa) were flying Wel to Syd/Mel, would she get here? I mean, Jitconnect is Aussie- isn't it...?

[howyoulikethat]

Close rank immediately.........:suspect:

[Short_Circuit]

I have not has so much as 1 minute off this year and the place folds.
Fine, lock me out qantas will be gone in 6 weeks, not my decision but AJ & LC.

[another superlame]

Are you people ****in stupid. Go home, sell you McMansion and move to the country. If you want to keep fighting you will lose you home,your 2 lease cars and your way of life. Wake up.

[Clipped]

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce says he supports the Federal Government's carbon tax in principle

Very convenient arrangement, that.

[another superlame]

After reading the news reels, it seems Gillard is a gutless wench with no backbone..
She needs to stop talikng, step in and do something.

She has said nothing and done nothing while 1 little irishman has pulled the nation to a halt.

Gutless welsch wench.

And by the way, not a word from any union reps, not a word.

[What The]

The problem is that the media does not want to talk with the union reps (other than ABC).

[ABAT4t2]

For those who cannot see further than the end of their nose this is what so called intelligent businessmen won't be telling you:

management spin about competing globally means you go down to the lowest common denominator. Reduced wages, reduced tax income for the government which ultimately means reduced social infrastructure, i.e. health care, pensions etc. everything.

Australia cannot and should not compete with countries like China unless ALL Australians are prepared to except a drop in living standards in order to remain competitive.

Of course the drop won't affect management who will still earn their oversized wages.

Australian wages and product pricing takes into account the social infrastructure in place in Australia and every product bought adds to the pot for the benefit of all Australians.

Tickets bought for an Australian led airline based in Asia adds to the pockets of management and possibly the social pots of whichever country the airline is based. It will not add anything significant to the Australian pot.

The real question here is whether one accepts a drop in living standards for ALL Australians or whether one sends out a message of "not with us".

We need to start applying some moral common sense to these issues. Global competitiveness is a one way street. Levi Strauss is an excellent example.

Not one single pair of levi jeans are still produced in America. They are all produced outside the USA to save costs. Yet every single pair of levi jeans are sold for the maximum they can achieve in each individual country meaning that the costs savings have not been passed on to the customer, so where is all that extra cash?

Perhaps someone should take a serious look at management wages for the real answer to these sorts of disputes.

You are a fool if you seriously believe the Qantas line.

[another superlame]

ABAT4t2, you have it in one succinct response.

[Arnold E]

And by the way, not a word from any union reps, not a word.

Not true actually, there was a post earlier (from the Fed Sec) stating that FWA meeting at 10pm. I would think union officials are a little busy at the moment, besides that, what do you want them to say??

[another superlame]

No doubt Steve is busy, the rest of his team might have a few words to say.
Or some of Barry's team for that matter.

[buttmonkey1]

pull up a chair and wait by the river bank.

hang-on, i think there is a body comming down now, lol.
time to grab some beer, sit back and watch the show folks.

[600ft-lb]

looking back at post #1 of this thread

Hang onto your hats folks, looks like this could be 2008 all over again if, after day 1, the only words QF management can muster during negotiations is NO.

seems that 2008 was the warm up of 2011

[TBM-Legend]

Don't worry SP will collect his check every week while those who pay fees look at diminishing bank accounts....
Strawbs - Part of the union 1973 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/KdOCWUgwiWs)

[600ft-lb]

SP didn't ground the airline. The board and the ceo did.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2009/11/Alan_Joyce-600x398.jpg

[One Eye Redundant]

Can somebody please explain to me how this works.

Under Fair work Australia laws the engineers have to give 3 days notice of any industrial action they wish to take. Qantas seem to be allowed to hold the whole workforce and the Australian public to ransom with absolutely no notice. The engineers have called off any industrial action for 3 weeks, so for Qantas to claim this is in reaction to their action is an out and out lie.

The board seem hell bent on damaging the brand at every opportunity, while making the unions the scapegoats for their actions. When the union called off its action to get the "retired" aircraft back into the skies, they sent a clear message to travellers that they did not want to be the ones to inconvenience them. Now Qantas go and do this and still try to blame the unions.

Seeing that picture of AJ makes my blood boil.

[Sunfish]

Don't worry SP will collect his check every week while those who pay fees look at diminishing bank accounts....

TBM - Legend has just demonstrated that he is a troll.

[Suck&Blow]

I can confirm that the manager who arrived in Adelaide yesterday to "assist" with any problems announced by the grounding had received his orders on FRIDAY night. :mad:

S&B

[Talkwrench]

one eye redundant:

Can somebody please explain to me how this works.

As I understand it:

Qantas Management's PIA does not commence until 8pm Monday night. Everyone gets paid til then. Presumably, Qantas management notified the appropriate body with the appropriate period to enable their PIA to commence 8pm Monday night.

The grounding of the airline is separate to the Qantas management PIA. The grounding is not Industrial Action (but is a 'precautionary' measure as a result of the Qantas management PIA) and therefore it is not required to be notified. All staff are still being paid even though no aircraft are flying.

If FWA doesnt suspend or terminate ALL PIA related to this dispute, The members at Qantas covered by AIPA, ALAEA and TWU (Pilots, LAMEs, Baggage Handlers) will be locked out and not paid from 8pm Monday, for an indefinite period.

All other staff will attend work and be paid as normal.

[airsupport]

Just been watching Sky News all morning, not a lot of consolation I Know, but at least good to know that the vast majority of Qantas pax they have interviewed put the blame solely where it belongs with AJ. :ok:

Good luck with it all, think we need to deport someone home to Ireland and also keep Qantas in Australia, preferably Government owned again. :ok:

[MR WOBBLES]

Two dodgy looking gents turned up at my door this morning with a letter ( QF embossed in corner),when they can act a bit more professionally & identify themselves appropriately, I might accept there letter.

[King William III]

PIA or no PIA, I will sure as heck be sticking 100% to ALL Qantas working procedures regarding my work, these pricks will be looking for ANY excuse to avoid refundancy payouts!!

[itsjustme]

Of this I have no doubt.....and I'm an employee

FWA will rule and force a "Termination" of all pia by all 3 unions in dispute.

They "the government" have a gun to thier head today at FWA and there will be too much bad political fallout for them to bare if the alternative choice available to FWA of a suspension to pia. QF have said publicly they will not except "suspension". The 21 days of arbritation will begin and at the 11th hour of day 21 the workers will be told to except the crumbs on offer from QF management.
QF will win, sad I know but this is how I see things panning out imo.

Makes a mockery of eba "negotiations" and supposed lawful "PIA".

Like playing blackjack with QF and they are the dealer but the government own the casino.

[Clipped]

The outcome you envision is the most probable and sad scenario.

How wonderful to live in this true democracy. Citizens having a say in government, freedom of speech, protected rights ..... hang on, I'm fantasizing.

Enter the greedy and you will bow to these masters of the universe.

[itsjustme]

Anyone got the link for this meeting today on twitter ????

[Clipped]

From elsewhere

AJ and LC have done nothing like that with the grounding move - but they have set in train, the precise events they wanted to have in place.
Employees unbalanced by shock tactics, worrying more now about how they'll meet the mortgage and put food on the table in the next few weeks - politicians scurrying to cave in to corporate demands, before they too, lose their arses in the fallout - and in the meantime, the board have their next move carefully mapped out, as the results of their current move produce exactly the conditions they sought.

Anyone betting otherwise?

Sunfish's observation about a new private equity bid would also be my best guess as to motive behind what is going on. In many ways the industrial action is a way to divert attention. Watch the magicians other hand.

There is nothing new under the sun, this is just another shell game. History is littered with examples of the already obscenely wealthy destroying the people around them for profit & pleasure. The people running this organisation are no exception.

War is being waged against you.

Sigh.

[King William III]

My friend's (a lowly manager) wife knew about the grounding on Friday night......

....but didn't AJ swear the decision wasn't made until Saturday morning????


LIAR LIAR LIAR

[Ngineer]

They've crunched the numbers and decided that this is the quickest and cheapest option to end the dispute.

Maybe we should go with it and completely walk out until December 18. There will be no-one left to support Atlas, Jetconnect, or freighter ops. Jet* would also subsequently fold in the process.

We are all dead ducks, just bring it. At least we will take senior management out with us.

[Short_Circuit]

My friend's (a lowly manager) wife knew about the grounding on Friday night......
Managers were briefed in syd Wednesday at sdo. :mad:

[NewPiper]

So what if managers were pre briefed. The board was acting in a very responsible and pro-active way by planning for multiple possible scenario's. That is an appropriate way to assess threats and deal with them accordingly. Threats such as Unions saying their thuggery would go on for 12 months or more! Then on Saturday morning, the magnificent board got together and said enough is enough, and chose the course of action we now see. Get over folks, its checkmate!

[booglaboy]

New piper, have you been smoking the same crack-pipe as aj and lc and the board? I feel you are bringing the IQ of the nation down. Please save your few remaining brain cells for another forum

[Scorpion1080]

He has a few brain cells left? That is being a little optimistic.

[One Eye Redundant]

New Piper

I know that I shouldn't feed the trolls, but here goes.

Qantas LAMEs have more pride in the brand and the product that they deliver every day than greedy corporate scum could ever understand. If these same greedy scum choose to run this once proud airline into the ground for their own personal profit and satisfaction, then that is probably what they will do.

All I will say is don't expect us to accept it and go down without a fight.

SP and the ALAEA exec. We are behind you 100%

By the way, does anyone know why a Qantas 737 was seen flying over Leichardt at about 8pm this evening? I thought the fleet was grounded.

Maybe just more lies!

[NewPiper]

booglaboy,

I might as well use the last few brain cells and say that you and every other AJ critic are clearly drunk on emotions and ego. When the dust settles, it will be crystal clear that the CEO made a brilliant decision because he has a brilliant mind! For now, I am going to sit back and watch most of the LH pilots and engineers slowly loose their QF jobs in the months and years ahead. Any other decisions that AJ may need to make in the future will be a walk in the park compared to what he's already done.

NP

[One Eye Redundant]

New Piper,

Do you by any chance give AJ regular check ups with his health problems? I have rarely witnessed someone so in love with another human being without the sound of wedding bells looming.

[Arnold E]

I am going to sit back and watch most of the LH pilots and engineers slowly loose their QF jobs in the months and years ahead.
So you think that people and there families losing there lively hood is a good thing do you??

[Captain Gidday]

By the way, does anyone know why a Qantas 737 was seen flying over Leichardt at about 8pm this evening? I thought the fleet was grounded.
Jetconnect. A kiwi in kangaroo clothing. Ironically, the point of it all.

[booglaboy]

Dear oh dear newpiper. A brilliant mind? A delusional mind who is committing corporate suicide. His next decision will be whether to share a prison cell with bubba or bubba's boyfriend. Me thinks 22 million Australians would like him to vacate the country in a hurry.

[Cargo744]

Corporate suicide would be to have Sp and Co run a company. But he was so awesome at the AGM! :ugh:

[ejectx3]

booglaboy,

I might as well use the last few brain cells and say that you and every other AJ critic are clearly drunk on emotions and ego. When the dust settles, it will be crystal clear that the CEO made a brilliant decision because he has a brilliant mind! For now, I am going to sit back and watch most of the LH pilots and engineers slowly loose their QF jobs in the months and years ahead. Any other decisions that AJ may need to make in the future will be a walk in the park compared to what he's already done.

NP

It's "lose" not "loose" Mr brilliant...

[Clipped]

ABC 24, without a doubt, providing the most well rounded coverage, thus far.

Freehills and Clifford, got some exposure, of industrial spats of the past.

One commentary was the feeling of other ministers, regarding this dispute, the reply being many were very, very pissed off with the conduct of Q.

Hope there is some follow through, on that.

[middleman]

Out of curiosity - What does the "job security" clause that the ALAEA want entail ?

[chockchucker]

Among other things middleman, retention of current job functions/work practices ( i.e. no dumbing down the industry with the introduction of "A" license personell)


According to a message from inside the FWA hearing, the ALAEA have stated that given the events of the last 24hrs that they would be prepared to rethink their claims and return to the bargaining table under a suspension of PIA.



Either FedSec has some hidden ace up his sleeve or I think there will be a lot fewer LAME's working at Qantas by the time the next EBA comes up for negotiation.:(

[Far-Q]

It seems that the Trolls/media/flying public are forgetting to ask one simple question.

Why are the unions asking for these so called unreasonable job security clauses?

The answer is quite simple.

Since the bad old days of Darth Dixon Qantas didn't just burn the bridge of trust with its staff IT NUKED IT!

No one trusts them. Everyone knows that once the EBA is implemented there will be nothing stopping them from achieving their ambitions offshore. Having job security clauses in EBA's may help slow them down.. a little.

Every staff member wants QF to prosper, but it becomes very difficult to carry out our work with the lack of resources available. The money that QF intends on spending setting up offshore should be used here to polish the turd they have and bring back the customers.

[buttmonkey1]

nice to see these shiney bums getting a taste of shiftwork,
working the equivalent of a dayshift and afternoon shift on
the weekend.
next time they should try it using torches, outside in a rainstorm.

[One Eye Redundant]

So,

Industrial action terminated. 21 days to reach agreement. It had better include a bloody good redundancy package, because I have no faith in Qantas management, or the Australian government or FWA for that matter.

Democracy my arse!!!

[airsupport]

This is without doubt the most disgusting thing I have EVER seen in my whole Life, and that horrid Irish :mad: is still this morning blaming it all on the Unions. :mad:

I never worked for Qantas but was always so proud to travel on this great Aussie Icon, but like the vast majority of people will NEVER fly with them again. :(

[Sunfish]

And in three months time, when the global economy again melts down, Qantas will ask its employees to once again make sacrifices for the good of the company.

....and it will be met by a wall of silence.

[driver121242]

Well first of all I am a Qantas pilot.
If you can sit back and look what Joyce has done, it has to rank as one of the smartest industrial moves anywhere in the world. You really have to hand it to him as a brilliant strategist. - You don't have to agree with what he is doing, that is another thing.

Lets look at what he has done. ....
He has locked out the workers. A move that may or may not be legal. Well it is not. He is in breach of so many laws he could be put in behind bars for a long time.....
Well not really. He grounded the airline. - yep he can do that anytime, it is his airline. And he scared the government / workers / unions that he has a result BEFORE he locked out the worker. Yep no one was ever locked out. so he was not in breach of the law. Kudos to Alan

He has killed the governments IR laws in 48 hours. Yep what Abbot has been trying to do for so long, Alan has done in just 48 hours. Now all you have to do to ban your employees from doing anything is to lock them out over the weekend. Kudos for Alan

He has killed any hope of Gillard ever getting back in.
Wondered why he told the media that he gave the prime minister 3 hours to respond to a phone call? (Well he didn't do that OW told the media that, so Alan has a fall girl.) He did that to throw fuel on the fire. The ALP is going down. What do you do to get political favours from the new government? You throw kids overboard, or give the PM 3 hours to answer a phone call when she is hosting the heads of state, and has no time to consult with her advisors and obtain legal advice. The phone message was probably something like "Hi, call AJ it is really important." Not if I don't get a response in 3 hours I am shutting down the Australian air network.
So just how much will Abbot owe Joyce for humiliating Gillard in front of the world leaders?

So in 48 hours he has removed any possibility of strikes, work to rule, PA's. He has killed the governments IR laws - no more PIA

He has deeply wounded Gillard. IR laws and heads of state.

So the mileage he will get with the new government will enable him to do anything with the airline. Expect
1: 50 flight attendants to Pax (like NZ and the US)
Expect softening of the QF sales act.
Expect modified flight and duty times.

Yep it was a brilliant move. He has out smarted all of the unions and the government.

I just wish he was working for the good of the company........

[King William III]

Edited to remove a rant that would serve no purpose more than stoke these c@#ts psychopathic egos.

Has anyone else noted the complete 180 in the reporting in the papers.
Check out smh, Qantas ripe for takeover story. It's like they're finally reading sandilands. I think the overbearing thug Clifford has finally gone too far and alienated the people, the press AND the government.

Mr Xenophon might find he has a fair bit of support n his new bill after all.



Btw, has anyone else noted how god awful this site is on smartphones?

[Red Baron]

Hang in there guy's, it ain't over yet!

Maintain the rage. :E

[Clipped]

Watch your backs at work.

Follow procedures. The nazi's will be out to pick off, a few.

Think QantasLink.

[NewPiper]

Clipped,

That is good advice. Anyone who thinks they can go slow, go sick, or otherwise try and restrict the operation of the business will be smartly escorted through the door I'd say.

AJ is a hero. The three unions have been trashing the airline and brand over a very long period of time. In only 48 hours, AJ has permanently trashed AIPA, TWU and the engineers with ease!

I said it before, you guys did it to yourselves. Job security...what a joke. Its amazing you actually had the audacity to even ask for job security in this challenging environment.

NP

PS ejectx3, Please advise me if you find any spelling errors in this post. I'm happy to be corrected.

[airsupport]

AJ is a hero

AJ is many things, definitely NOT a hero. :rolleyes:

With any luck at all he will be out of Qantas soon, Adam Bandt of the Greens is currently on Sky News blaming (correctly) AJ for everything, he is insisting that AJ gives his ridiculous pay rise back, and the Government take a direct interest in the negotiations and future running of Qantas. :ok:

He, Bob Katter and Nick Xenophon are the Aussie heroes, NOT AJ. :ok:

[craigieburn]

Adam Bandt of the Greens is currently on Sky News blaming (correctly) AJ for everything, he is insisting that AJ gives his ridiculous pay rise back, and the Government take a direct interest in the negotiations and future running of Qantas.

He, Bob Katter and Nick Xenophon are the Aussie heroes, NOT AJ.

While I am behind most of what you guys & girls are fighting for, you need to be very careful about who you let align themselves to your cause.
The way I see it, you are in a fight for the support of middle Australia and the actions of the CEO on the weekend may have tipped the PR war slightly in your favour.
However, when you have political extremists (ie Bandt, Brown & Katter) in your corner, the suspicion radar on the average punter who has no inside knowledge of your fight will start pinging like crazy and what PR ground that you have made will be lost. There is no point in preaching to the converted.
You need to keep hammering your message, stay on topic and focus the public that the real reason behind the lack of negotiation on QF's side of the fence is that they want Qantas to die. They want Qantas to be sold off to the lowest bidder. Inform the public and do not let extremists hijack your cause.
If you want evidence of how this can happen, you need look no further than the "Occupy" protest in Melbourne. This was a cause, that if sold properly may have garnered the support of middle Australia, however once the normal extremist rent-a-crowd aka socialist alliance etc became involved, all potential support from middle Australia was lost.
I believe that the best way to continue your momentum would be for all of those in dispute to agree to let Capt Woodward be the spokesperson for ALL disaffected Qantas workers. I think that he presents the most moderate voice that middle Australia will have no political/philosophical opposition to.
Please be careful how you go forward. I know that you have more invested than any of us who don't work there, so please take my message as it was meant, a message of support:ok:

[Disengagement]

My hats of the Steve and his team , some people might say that Qantas won out , I say that the world now sees Qantas Management for what it really is and what the employees have seen for quite some time . Its all about greed and bonus's , what a engaged staff they will have returning :D:D:D:D
Have seen even the Qantas die hards have now changed their view on the Company.

Never been so proud to be a ALAEA union member :ok::ok:

[rh200]

the weekend may have tipped the PR war slightly in your favour.

Would have thought so, but the snap polls havn't been as bad as I would have thought for AJ.

I believe that the best way to continue your momentum would be for all of those in dispute to agree to let Capt Woodward be the spokesperson for ALL disaffected Qantas workers

That would be a good move. The actions up to Saturday was inovative, and by themselves could not have triggered the actions of AJ. The problem is the public see pilots as elite, the other problem is the public see TWU and go cr@p more union thuggery, whether the TWU is in the right or not.

The problem is a lot of people see QANTAS workers as what we used to call in other industry's as Koala bears (protected species). If QANTAS has to survive then these perceptions need to be countered.

[Clipped]

I say that the world now sees Qantas Management for what it really is

Just watching Gillard, Evans and Albanese on the idiot box. AJ has made no friends there.

NP, thanks for your advice. It's interesting how one would determine a 'go slow' when we are continually bombarded with rules, regs, safety and quality notices and a plethora of other data and documentation, before even turning a screw. They throw obstacle after obstacle at us and over the past few weeks, we are accused of go slows.

Their lies and hypocrisy.

[Short_Circuit]

And then you are always told to take 5, ie slow down and think for a while about what & how you will do it and then start, THIS IS POLICY, mandated go slow, FROM MANAGEMENT....:p

[ozaub]

Sadly, workers united can always be defeated.
Qantas did it by first pandering to politicians and journalists with I-pads, bottles of Grange and family upgrades. Next, even while flying planes around Australia that were painted to look like Qantas but foreign registered and foreign crewed, the airline placed lots of full page advertisements bragging about a “New Spirit of Australia”. The purpose of the ads bemused punters but probably bought a little influence with media proprietors. Finally management just had to be more callus than a union at stranding the elderly in flood stricken Bangkok.
Then bingo; Qantas wins. Corporate greed trumps employees’ need. As always.

[TBM-Legend]

Fletcher Building chairman and Woolworths director Ralph Waters echoed
this, saying: "Why do some Qantas employees believe they are entitled to
a job security to which workers at car, appliance and steel plants, bank
back-officers, retailers exposed to online GST free trading and so many
more are not entitled? To bring a company to its knees in pursuit of
that, coupled with unsustainable pay increases, leaves management with
no option to the course they have taken."

[ohallen]

Presumably he was referring to the unsustainable pay increases of the Executive team because I have only heard of 3-4% for the rest of the claims.

Where is the outrage at Joyce's package? Strangely silent on quantum and timing.

Oh well another Chairman's Lounge member.

This is like dealing with the mafia but atleast they had some principals to the way they operated.

[airsupport]

Did you hear about the Irishman who walked into a bar full of Aussies in Sydney last night.

He said he wanted to shout the bar as he had experienced such a great week.

How's that said one of the Aussies.

Well says the Irishman I hardly know where to start, first of all I managed to give myself a 71% pay rise worth millions of dollars.

Wow said the Aussie.

That is not all though said the Irishman, I also managed to stop all the loyal workers who keep the Company running from getting ANY pay rise.

That does NOT seem very Australian says the Aussie.

Well lucky for me I am NOT an Aussie and do NOT care about them says the Irishman, anyway stop interupting while I am speaking, that is still NOT the best part.

I also managed to shut the Company down for 2 days causing havoc all over the World, AND I will soon be moving the Airline off shore to help pay for my pay rise.

What a week says the Irishman.

What an a$$hole said all the Aussies.

PS. This is NOT an Irish joke. :(:(:(

[Jethro Gibbs]

Just watching Gillard, Evans and Albanese on the idiot box. AJ has made no friends there.

But will they all now refuse Flight Upgrades Free Wine Ipads Football Trips
NOT BLOODY LIKELY .

[buttmonkey1]

interesting story on the qf problems at
Flight path of an airline in crisis - Today Tonight - Yahoo!7 News (http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/video/watch/27109990/)

qantas lame earns $53,700 - $113,500 seeking a 3% increase
virgin lame earns $141,000

so joyces average qf lame earns $170,000 deception is busted

[the rim]

OMFG have we done this to death.......look guys we have run and we have lost[maybe not a complete loss]but we were done over...lets move forward and see what we can do from here...gee I sound like a QF manager...I am not...but lets not lose sight of what we can salvage,as I said before we need to tread very carefully.......and dont start posting "watching the bodies floating past" because they are most likely OURS ....

[PIOT Bord]

From The Australian 31/10/11.

RATINGS agency Standard & Poor's today downgraded Qantas's outlook to negative from stable, citing the threat to its reputation posed by industrial turmoil.

The agency's move follows Qantas's dramatic step on Saturday to ground its entire fleet due to industrial action, and Fair Work Australia's ruling early today preventing further stoppages and ordering Qantas to drop its plans to lock out its workforce.
While Qantas began flying again today, the parties in the dispute have been given 21 days to resolve their differences and one union, the Transport Workers Union, says its may appeal the FWA ruling.
S&P credit analyst Danielle Kremzer: “The outlook revision reflects our view of the uncertainty concerning the severity of the negative impact on Qantas following the protracted industrial relations dispute.”
“We believe that the current industrial relations dispute is more severe than we originally anticipated,” the company said.

"In our view, the industrial relations dispute presents possible downside risk to the rating, given the potential for ongoing negative reputational damage to the airline, and more importantly, the potential impact on the airline's market position as a result of customer reaction or competitor response.

S&P added: “Further, Qantas' relationship with employees or unions, if not improved, we believe raises uncertainty over Qantas' cost structure over time.
The ratings agency said Qantas's industrial troubles also came at a time when the airline industry faced the challenges of a slowing global economy and still-high fuel prices.
Maybe the Union busting tactics that AJ and LC have been planning for so long aren't going as perfectly as they thought!

Maybe we still have a few Aces up our sleeve yet to be played during the next 21 days!

[hadagutfull]

Got to love the amount of arm chair experts coming out of the woodwork now , conveniently armed with all the facts and financial details which seem to mirror the qantas media releases....

There is never any mention of Virgin, which is an Aussie based company, having any issue with wage levels in a " global" market.

Also omitted was Jetstar LAME pay.. What was it... $105000 for holding an A320 rating as an entry level lame compared to 53700 for a qantas entry level?

Had to laugh at how many of the public called us greedy... The boss is gonna be on 96,000 per week.... Up from 57,700. He makes in 1 week what I make in a year. And I'm the greedy one wanting 3 percent?

It's open season on anything qantas....

[One Eye Redundant]

Saw AJ on TV today saying that now FWA have made their ruling, relationships between company and employees will be much better.

I must say I'm glad he didn't go into marriage counselling, as he would probably advise belting the crap out of your missus if her opinion differs to yours. If that didn't work he would probably advise putting in the boot. We will never forget what you have done to Qantas while trying to place the blame on us.

Most of the engineers have been in this company much longer than any of the board. One day you will all just be a glitch in the proud history of Qantas, an airline founded by pilots and engineers.

[Short_Circuit]

Could 2GB please comment on this FACT (follow link below) by spreading misleading comments around these facts and misleading the older generation who do not use the Internet . These old folk rely on talk back radio for honest opinion. Poor old biddies now thinking that backing Joycey will save Qantas & Australian jobs. Wrong wrong wrong.
Shame shame shame.

Stop the cr@p that qantas was grounded because of industrial action, Alan Joyce grounded the airline because he thought Qantas pilots would crash their aircraft because they were stressed about what qantas management had not even done yet!!! ie ground the fleet (well that is what he said, we all know he is just pissed of with LAMEs & Pilots, it is a personal fight for them) .... without informing the Julia or ASX, Shane shame shame.

Please look here, interesting story on the qf problems at

Flight path of an airline in crisis - Today Tonight - Yahoo!7 News (http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/video/watch/27109990/)

Must be true it is on TV.

Shame shame shame.

To reiterate.
Qantas lame Starts on $53,700 seeking only CPI 3% increase that most unions have already signed off on.
Virgin lame earns about $141,000
Jetstar LAME starts on $110,000
QantasLink LAME start on $115,000

.

[airsupport]

I would not give up just yet, there are many Politicians getting involved now, and most of the travelling public now know who is to blame.

Just been watching the 7PM Report (actually the Report from tonight on), the poll on their web site tonight is ''who do you blame for the mess at Qantas'', currently running at 76% AJ, 20% Unions and 4% Government.

[lamem]

Never been so proud to be a ALAEA union member http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I wonder how those that resigned from the union during the last PIA, and assisted the company, felt when they were told they would be locked out just like those nasty unionists.

[chockchucker]

Heard a good comment tonight that I believe sums up this situation well.



In Vietnam, America was by far the greater military power and won all the major battles they fought in.........Yet they lost the war.



If AJ and LC are congratulating each other in victory tonight, they ought to quickly remember that there are a lot of disenchanted staff working for them that they had better engage fast. Else they may well see plenty more market share leave for the competition.



Pretty sure that's never conducive to obtaining performance based bonuses....

[SeldomFixit]

it is if your aim is to close down mainline.................

[the_company_spy]

So was AJ the mastermind behind the coup de ta or just following a script?

Chairman of Qantas Leigh Clifford has been down this road several times before, Director Garry Hounsell is also a board member of Freehills.

Was the fix in at board level before the edict was handed down to the boss to pull the plug?

Who really has their hands on the levers at Qantas and which way are they being pulled?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

In Vietnam, America was by far the greater military power and won all the major battles they fought in.........Yet they lost the war.



Full interview was a cracker.

[lame1]

"To save the town we had to bomb it"

[Managers Perspective]

If AJ and LC are congratulating each other in victory tonight, they ought to quickly remember that there are a lot of disenchanted staff working for them that they had better engage fast.

After their recent victory, I think they will be celebrating.

As for all of those disenchanted staff, I think that number will soon reduce to a more sustainable quantity.

MP

[ausmastiff]

SHORT CIRCUIT

To reiterate.
1. Qantas lame Starts on $53,700 seeking only CPI 3% increase that most unions have already signed off on.
2. Virgin lame earns about $141,000
3. Jetstar LAME starts on $110,000
4. QantasLink LAME start on $115,000

What we need are facts, and what is stated above is not entirely factual, here are the facts.

1. QANTAS LAME starting point @ JAN 1 2010
Entry Point
Non-Group 20/21- Level 1 $53,726 PA

Group 20/21 Non-Company type with less
than 12 months experience -Level 2 $57,717 PA

Group 20/21 Non-Company type with more
than 12 months experience -Level 3 $59,044 PA

1st Company Aircraft Rating -Level 4 $63,474 PA

2 type ratings aproximately $67910 PA

Lots of aircraft types and years of experience can result in a higher
grade such as Level 15 $113,602 PA

In addition shift penalties, holiday loading, travel allowances etc are paid


2. VIRGIN LAME
B1 or B2 or E,I & R on 2 aircraft $141,000 PA

Includes all shift penalties, holiday loading and travel allowance etc

3. JETSTAR LAME
Mech / AV on 1 type $110,000 PA

Add about $5000 for second type( I think) $115,000 PA

Includes all shift penalties, holiday loading and travel allowance etc

4. QANTASLINK LAME
Non-Group 20/21- Level 1 $53,304 PA

Single category on Group 20/21-Level 2 $58,027 PA

2 categories on 2 aircraft - Level 3A $66,883 PA

3 categories on 3 aircraft types -Level 4C $80,505 PA

In addition shift penalties, holiday loading, travel allowances etc are paid These figures are for the LAME"s based in Brisbane & Tamworth who have not had a payrise since July 2009.

So to give a fair comparison the following amounts would be an estimate for a LAME with 2 categories on 2 aircraft doing a 4 on/ 4 off shift with no OT.

1. QANTAS LAME $98,470
2. VIRGIN LAME $141,000
3. JETSTAR LAME $115,000
4. QANTASLINK LAME $96,980

Of course a LAME at QANTAS or LINK may only have single category on 1 aircraft working days and earlies Mon to Friday and would get paid substantially less than an equivilent LAME at the 2 LCC.

Happy to discuss this,

regards

ausmastiff :O

[ausmastiff]

SHORT CIRCUIT

To reiterate.
1. Qantas lame Starts on $53,700 seeking only CPI 3% increase that most unions have already signed off on.
2. Virgin lame earns about $141,000
3. Jetstar LAME starts on $110,000
4. QantasLink LAME start on $115,000

What we need are facts, and what is stated above is not entirely factual, here are the facts.

1. QANTAS LAME starting point @ JAN 1 2010
Entry Point
Non-Group 20/21- Level 1 $53,726 PA

Group 20/21 Non-Company type with less
than 12 months experience -Level 2 $57,717 PA

Group 20/21 Non-Company type with more
than 12 months experience -Level 3 $59,044 PA

1st Company Aircraft Rating -Level 4 $63,474 PA

2 type ratings aproximately $67910 PA

Lots of aircraft types and years of experience can result in a higher
grade such as Level 15 $113,602 PA

In addition shift penalties, holiday loading, travel allowances etc are paid


2. VIRGIN LAME
B1 or B2 or E,I & R on 2 aircraft $141,000 PA

Includes all shift penalties, holiday loading and travel allowance etc

3. JETSTAR LAME
Mech / AV on 1 type $110,000 PA

Add about $5000 for second type( I think) $115,000 PA

Includes all shift penalties, holiday loading and travel allowance etc

4. QANTASLINK LAME
Non-Group 20/21- Level 1 $53,304 PA

Single category on Group 20/21-Level 2 $58,027 PA

2 categories on 2 aircraft - Level 3A $66,883 PA

3 categories on 3 aircraft types -Level 4C $80,505 PA

In addition shift penalties, holiday loading, travel allowances etc are paid These figures are for the LAME"s based in Brisbane & Tamworth who have not had a payrise since July 2009.

So to give a fair comparison the following amounts would be an estimate for a LAME with 2 categories on 2 aircraft doing a 4 on/ 4 off shift with no OT.

1. QANTAS LAME $98,470
2. VIRGIN LAME $141,000
3. JETSTAR LAME $115,000
4. QANTASLINK LAME $96,980

Of course a LAME at QANTAS or LINK may only have single category on 1 aircraft working days and earlies Mon to Friday and would get paid substantially less than an equivilent LAME at the 2 LCC.

Happy to discuss this,

regards

ausmastiff :O

[ausmastiff]

SHORT CIRCUIT

To reiterate.
1. Qantas lame Starts on $53,700 seeking only CPI 3% increase that most unions have already signed off on.
2. Virgin lame earns about $141,000
3. Jetstar LAME starts on $110,000
4. QantasLink LAME start on $115,000

What we need are facts, and what is stated above is not entirely factual, here are the facts.

1. QANTAS LAME starting point @ JAN 1 2010
Entry Point
Non-Group 20/21- Level 1 $53,726 PA


Group 20/21 Non-Company type with
less
than 12 months experience -Level 2 $57,717 PA

Group 20/21 Non-Company type with more
than 12 months experience -Level 3 $59,044 PA

1st Company Aircraft Rating -

Level 4 $63,474 PA

2 type ratings aproximately $67910 PA

Lots of aircraft types and years of experience can result in a higher
grade such as Level 15 $113,602 PA

In addition shift penalties, holiday loading, travel allowances etc are paid


2. VIRGIN LAME
B1 or B2 or E,I & R on 2 aircraft $141,000 PA

Includes all shift penalties, holiday loading and travel allowance etc

3. JETSTAR LAME
Mech / AV on 1 type $110,000 PA

Add about $5000 for second type( I think) $115,000 PA

Includes all shift penalties, holiday loading and travel allowance etc

4. QANTASLINK LAME
Non-Group 20/21- Level 1 $53,304 PA

Single category on Group 20/21-Level 2 $58,027 PA

2 categories on 2 aircraft - Level 3A $66,883 PA

3 categories on 3 aircraft types -Level 4C $80,505 PA

In addition shift penalties, holiday loading, travel allowances etc are paid These figures are for the LAME"s based in Brisbane & Tamworth who have not had a payrise since July 2009.

So to give a fair comparison the following amounts would be an estimate for a LAME with 2 categories on 2 aircraft doing a 4 on/ 4 off shift with no OT.

1. QANTAS LAME $98,470
2. VIRGIN LAME $141,000
3. JETSTAR LAME $115,000
4. QANTASLINK LAME $96,980

Of course a LAME at QANTAS or LINK may only have single category on 1 aircraft working days and earlies Mon to Friday and would get paid substantially less than an equivilent LAME at the 2 LCC.

Happy to discuss this,

regards

ausmastiff :O

[NewPiper]

All union supporters need to realise that 98% of shareholders don't support you. Never fight against the market and we have now seen strong support from the equity market for QF stock and effectively AJ. Best advice is to get back to work and do your jobs, if you don't like it, you know where the door is. Rest assured that on the other side of that door, there are plenty waiting to take your job!!

NP

[Happy Gilmore]

Don't feed the troll !!

[chockchucker]

You're talking ****e NP. Whilst the few (242) people/institutions that own 96% of the shares may blindly follow LC and AJ, 98% of the total individual shareholders (mums and dads) most certainly do not. A distinction conveniently forgotten by the QF spin masters.



And let us remember one thing. The unions are still here and we will live to fight another day. AJ and LC have used their one big gun. The country will not tolerate any management pulling this same stunt again.



Mind you both men will be gone by the time the next EBA rolls around. Their Qasia pipe dream will go the same way as Jetstar pacific. They will be eaten alive and sent home with their tales in between their legs. After which AJ and
LC will parachute out of the place. If they hang around that long.



.....Because, as Capt Sullenberger of the miracle on the Hudson flight said as he testified before the U.S. Congress into the state of the aviation industry there, "We now find ourselves at the mercy of a revolving door of management teams intent on using airlines employees as an ATM".

[bandit2]

NP,
Maybe you need to remind yourself that the QF shareprice is still only $1.60 something!

[NewPiper]

Bandit,

1.60, 2.60 or $3.60....makes no difference to my own personal situation. The point is the message behind the share price reaction. That message is loud and clear. YOU LOST!:D

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We didn't get the outcome we sought in one court hearing. I don't think we have lost anything yet.

Remember guys most of these trolls are working to undermine our unity from the crisis center in Mascot.

[buttmonkey1]

makes no difference to my own personal situation.
thats right mr piper
especially when that situation revolves around
spending all day cranking off at a computer.

[bandit2]

New Piper, Thats all I was looking for!

[Clipped]

Julia and crew asking some hard questions of Abbott, regarding how much he knew and his intricate relationship with AJ and LC ...... and silence from the Opposition.

Watching today's debate, brings one a sense of relief that the ALP has not completely lost it's way nor abondoned some principles.

Gillard, Albanese and Shorten giving Q management a good ol' boot.

[VBPCGUY]

We didn't get the outcome we sought in one court hearing. I don't think we have lost anything yet.

Remember guys most of these trolls are working to undermine our unity from the crisis center in Mascot

Havent lost anything???? You were like lambs to the slaughter, qantas management have killed you and every other union in this country off, now every large company that has a PIA agaisnt them will simply shut up shop for a day or so and let FWA sort it out, which then just leads to arbitration, you havent got any of your claims through, you have had your PIA destroyed and you have nothing accept what Qantas is going to offer as the EBA they want so they can continue with their own grand plans, ALAEA hasnt even managed to protect any jobs, its all on Qantas terms now, not the unions.

[Arnold E]

VBPCGUY, you had better hope that the unions have not completely lost or you will be "Location: Stacking freight in the hold" for a lot less money in the future, if the job exists at all.

[legacy LAME]

Looks like the ABC has got the plot for the next installment of
Bastard boys!!!
QF may be feeling pretty smug right now but the game is not over yet.
I still have 100 percent support for the ALAEA and a renewed hatred of
QF management and especially that fraud in charge.

And to all our little managers, you only have a job while we
have a job. Who you going to manage when it's all offshore?
You want to be careful who you get in bed with, remember you lay
Down with dogs you wake up with fleas!

Keep up the good work Steve and all the ALAEA exec

[Short_Circuit]

Thanks for all that effort in wage calculations. I have to admit because it was early morning and had a few, I cut most of the info from another poster post and massaged it to what I thought close.
You have however, confirmed that QF & Link pay less than Virgin & Jetstar for LAME which was the point of the exercise. :ok:

[VBPCGUY]

Arnold Im on less than my QF counterpart anyway, in our last EBA negotiations by the TWU we were screwed like you would not believe, told they had applied for PIA and that they were offering non union members three months for free so that they could have maximum impact....................then the facts came out the TWU had never applied for PIA and my bank account is being raided by the TWU, it took a nasty letter for them to cease taking money from my account, I wasnt a union person before I signed up for this so called three months for free, I will never join any union ever again and after the FWA announcement on Monday morning unions in this country are dead anyway.

[qf 1]

new piper,you can be ashored there is a line of people waiting to get into an airline but it is not Qantas,once that virgin hanger opens in Sydney,qantas will be hemorrhaging engineers.:ouch:

[BrissySparkyCoit]

All union supporters need to realise that 98% of shareholders don't support you.

Um, this is a mis-leading statement. What he should have said is...
" the HOLDERS of 98% of the shares do not support you"

Which amounts to about 4 entities I believe.

[thosecotos]

Just to clarify, your quotes for Virgin LAME's is absolute top end only, and is no where near the average. They have stopped the B1 gap training due to cost so most B1 guys are restricted and not on that money.

Significantly it is also based on a 40hr average week so there is a built in overtime component worth around 10k per year.

[Collando]

In the first act, the Death Star was destroyed at a cost of $150 million, now the empire strikes back. Stay tuned for the return of the Jedi.

[jibba_jabba]

Chaser QANTAS Ad - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WSJop5sG2c)

Chaser QANTAS Ad - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WSJop5sG2c)

[clotted]

ashored, hanger, hemorrhaging engineers.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gif
It is just as well you guys aren't paid for your English grammar and spelling prowess.You'd starve! I hope you are better at using your screw drivers with your left hand.

[Managers Perspective]

QF may be feeling pretty smug right now but the game is not over yet.
I still have 100 percent support for the ALAEA and a renewed hatred of
QF management and especially that fraud in charge.

Well don't just bottle it up and upset yourself, speak out and let your feelings known.

There's still plenty of room up the front of the queue.

Ahhhhhhh, don't you just love the smell of a freshly cleaned toilet.

MP

[BP2197]

Can someone explain to me how the Federal government pushing other airlines (Eitihad etc) to fill any gaps from Qantas is going to protect my job in the future. I appreciate they have been made look very foolish but they are now protecting their own backsides by parading us in front of the firing squad. The sooner those clowns get the boot the better!

[One Eye Redundant]

So it would seem that Qantas's grounding of the fleet was not only an attempt to smash the unions, but to also embarrass and destabilise the government. AJ is the bad guy, and LC hides behind his skirt so we don't see the blood all over his hands. These guys would love a Liberal government back so they can ensure that workers rights are a thing of the past.

When will the Australian public wake up and realise they are being lied to by these corporate scum, so that the workers of Australia can toil to keep them in the luxury they have become so used to. When I hear these people labelling unions (workers) as greedy, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Every job in this country that is outsourced for their greed, is another person who can spend their days sitting in Martin Place. I believe the French monarchs used to believe that they were untouchable also.

[Take five]

One would think, by now that the Liberal Party and their greedy corporate backers would have given up smashing the workers.

The one and only reason they were voted out was WORKCHOICES.

They should have learned the lesson that the people will not accept total corporate control of their wages and conditions.

The way the Liberal Party are posturing at the moment suggests that they will never return to power and no matter what they say, they are in this disgraceful attempt to destroy wages and conditions for all Australian workers, up to there eyeballs.

Wake up to the reality that Qantas workers are well aware of what is transpiring and will not allow it to happen.

[PIOT Bord]

Some good has come out of Qantas' grounding of the fleet. Between the "lock out" letter received Sunday, and today's "back to work" letter, Lie-all has made me a Long Haul Pilot.

I was happy as an engineer spending my $170,000 but look forward to that moving up to $500,000.

I take back those horrible thoughts that I had about my CEO(gag) when he, in public forums, was abusing dedicated, competent staff. I do believe I could takeoff ok in whatever aircraft they assign to me when I turn up to QCC on my first day, but believe that I would become a kamikaze when trying to land.

With the competence this management team display, I'm amazed that I didn't receive Bruce's fleet grounding decision letter last Wednesday just after he wrote it!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

Did anyone else hear JB from Virgin Australia today?

He told the media in response to a question, "We pay our engineers more than Qantas"

You VA guys are lucky, you seem to be part of the solution, rather than the problem.:D

[Nepotisim]

Me too PIOT. Looking forward to the new career and payrise.:ok:

[One Eye Redundant]

AJ stood up on the TV the other day and said the board made the decision to lock us all out because Qantas was suffering a "DEATH FROM A THOUSAND CUTS". These same clowns have been CUTTING whatever they can from the company and outsourcing at every opportunity they get.

Maybe it would have been more accurate to say that Qantas is suffering a death from a hand full of C#%TS!!!

[qf 1]

clotted,i'm sure you get my drift,my maths is my strong point.cheers:E

[V-Jet]

Its all right for you guys going from $170k to $500k but spare a thought for the poor pilots - a large number of whom have gone from $500k to $170k and are now searching Bunnings for left handed screw drivers. Any chance of you listing some on ebay, we are keen to get to work asap and prove just what a lazy bunch of militant unionists you lot are - but we can't turn up without the correct screwdrivers, we'd just look silly...

[jasper289]

Just received a letter telling me all PIA is terminated and I can return as a long haul pilot. This letter also stated it was a follow up to a previous letter which has still not arrived. I rang the 1300 number to thank them for the pay rise only to be told it was just an administrative error. I wonder if that excuse would work if I undertorqued the fuse pins on the next pylon I install.

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::D:D:D:D:D:D

[blackhander]

Back to the cockpit for me too. Not sure if the 20 odd hours in a 172 and the couple of engine run sims makes me qualified but I'll give it a crack.

Also find it interesting that the lockout notice dated 29th October managed to arrive on the 30th with no prior preparation apparently but it took until 3rd November for the back to work letter to arrive dated 31st October.

[Bumpfoh]

Just to clarify, your quotes for Virgin LAME's is absolute top end only, and is no where near the average. They have stopped the B1 gap training due to cost so most B1 guys are restricted and not on that money.

Significantly it is also based on a 40hr average week so there is a built in overtime component worth around 10k per year.

Finally it has taken J.B himself to add some clarity to the distorted bile that has been emanating from the QF spin department regarding LAME remuneration.

While as quoted above J.B may be marginally off the mark for the overall average LAME pay at VA it is far more accurate that the pure lies and gross overstatements that AJ, Tokyo Rose and the spin kings have been feeding to the media in recent months and continually re-quoted by the likes of Peter Harbison (do some research you fool) just the other day.

Congratulations to Neil Wilson who quoted J.B in the Herald Sun today on P67 however he may be just as liable as the aforementioned journo.:ugh:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Julia Gillard has intervened in the Qantas dispute Time to Assume the Crash position 21 days with FWA which will most likley extend another 21 days and then a crap deal will be enforced on everyone by FWA.

[TIMA9X]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-98y7jApW5Xw/TrU6IO5DyvI/AAAAAAAAADM/BcCbNqXF-7o/s720/01-landind-always-by-your-side.jpg?gl=US

[The Black Panther]

Here is the Superior CEO by a mile. Catch the replay if you can.

[airsupport]

Steve (Fedsec),

Watched on line your appearance at the Senate the other day, very good job you did too.

Just curious, I gather from that your major concerns in these negotiations with Qantas is NOT money at all, but the outsourcing of jobs, in particular off shore, is this correct?

IF so then what has changed so much with Government policies, YES I know people are going to tell me different times, different Governments and I belong back with the Dinosaurs :rolleyes: however, many years ago (I cannot remember the exact year) Ansett planned to send one of our Carvairs to Hong Kong to be overhauled, it was also taking with it all sorts of spares from various aircraft to be overhauled, it was planned to become a regular thing to save money for Ansett.

The Government of the day stepped in, and prevented this from happening in the National Interest, they said Australia needed to maintain all this work and experience IN Australia in case there was any threats/wars etc, and this in the day when not only Ansett but TAA and Qantas were also doing all this work IN Australia.

So what has changed so much since then? :confused:

Qantas is now basically as far as I know the ONLY ones doing all this work IN Australia, and if anything the World is now an even more dangerous place since 9/11 etc, so how on Earth could any current Government allow all this work, expertise and knowledge to be lost to Australia just to save a few dollars especially when the same thing was blocked years ago in the National Interest when Qantas was NOT the only one doing this work? :confused:

[b55]

Qantas has announced a $20 million free give away of tickets to those passengers affected by the Qantas grounding. Also, reimbursment of any additional ticket costs incurred with buying a ticket on another airline. Also, FF points free give aways to be announced. This brings the direct cost to Qantas to $50 million+ for the grounding. Plus, all the many indirect $$$ costs of this one Qantas management action.

A question for the union reps? What would have been the yearly cost to Qantas if management had given to your union what had been asked for on your EBA negotiations? I haven't seen any projected costings on this. Only AJ's comment on justification "of not allowing Qantas dying a death of a thousand cuts".

[Shark Patrol]

Ah yes! Irish mathematics at its best. To prevent 'death by a thousand cuts' let's just kill Qantas with one massive stroke. 30 million through the grounding and now another 20 million in free tickets. Yep, Joyce has really earned his 71% payrise hasn't it? The Board must be so proud.

With 35000 employees (and I think it's a bit less than that) Joyce's actions in the last week equate to nearly $1500 per employee. HE MUST GO!!!!

IF (and its a big IF) Qantas International is losing what they say, let them hand over the books - all of the detailed accounts - and let's get an independent assessment. If what they say is true (and again that's a REALLY big if, because we know that they have a bit of problem with the concept of truth), I'm sure the employees would rally round to fix the problems.

But they refuse to do so, and they have given away our trust a LOOOOONG time ago. Get rid of Joyce, make an effort to re-establish a working relationship with your EMPLOYEES and let's see what happens.

[Short_Circuit]

A question for the union reps? What would have been the yearly cost to Qantas if management had given to your union what had been asked for on your EBA negotiations? I haven't seen any projected costings on this. Only AJ's comment on justification "of not allowing Qantas dying a death of a thousand cuts". As the ALAEAs 3% was agreed to last year by both parties, the only sticking point is job security, therefor it would have cost NOTHING for qantas to have agreed back then compared to grounding the airline.

[ohallen]

And the media keep going at it.

This morning one commentator on ABC suggested that the world airlines survived terrorist attacks (named but I wont) but will QANTAS survive Joyce attacks.

Ouch!!!!

[K9P]

These sort of narcissists will never reflect on their actions and admit that the're wrong they are too busy preening their egos.

[BP2197]

If the 3% was the actual figure you point would be correct however the actual (comparison rate in banking terms) increase was more than that when you take into account the seniority clauses etc that the union was pushing for. The figure of $170,000 which has been quoted out of context was the average cost of a LAME in three years time if the ALAEA's claim was fully endorsed from the current average of $140,000 (incl of super etc).

This is a very simple point - if we were competitive and we could be - lots more jobs would be available in Australia but some of the Super Lames would need to take a cold shower.

[airsupport]

NOT THE COMMODORE............. :(

AJ must have been talking to the bosses at Holden, now they are saying that Australian Icon the Holden Commodore will be engineered and built off shore from 2014. :(

Will the last Aussie to have a job in Australia please turn out the lights and lock the door. :(

[buttmonkey1]

joyce seems to like talking annualised wage figures,
bring it on then, annualised salaries and big increases
to our redundancy payments must be a part of it.

[Nassensteins Monster]

IF (and its a big IF) Qantas International is losing what they say, let them hand over the books - all of the detailed accounts - and let's get an independent assessment. If what they say is true (and again that's a REALLY big if, because we know that they have a bit of problem with the concept of truth), I'm sure the employees would rally round to fix the problems.

Won't make a jot of difference. Yeah sure they'll find a few discrepancies that can be plausibly explained away. I heard things in the Senate hearing that were clearly lies yet they slid straight past to the keeper. The PROBLEM is that there are certain procedures preventing costs from hitting the books in the first place. Some of these "procedures" are not even written down! Just a phone call to the right person and the paperwork is binned. I have seen it with mine own eyes. The phone call only needs to be made once. Human nature being what it is, if the paperwork doesn't "need" to be completed and has "official" sanction from one's higher-ups, why would one waste time filling out a recharge form in future, knowing exactly where it will end up?

But they refuse to do so, and they have given away our trust a LOOOOONG time ago. Get rid of Joyce, make an effort to re-establish a working relationship with your EMPLOYEES and let's see what happens.

"Getting rid of Joyce" will not solve the problem. There is a rotten and festering corporate culture within Qantas that will will live another day to advise the next CEO and take a generation to remove. The CEO is backed by advisers who are several layers removed from the lowest tier of management - many of whom are themselves ignorant of what happens on the floor. Any CEO can only make decisions based on the advice he has received. When you have many in middle and senior management who are so removed from reality that they do not know what goes on in their own areas of responsibility, who have their own agenda (to survive and thrive in the short term), and to do so will reinforce the CEO's preconceived notions, what hope is there for intelligent decision making from even the best CEO?

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Everyone needs to leave their baggage at the door, sit down at a round table and start again: staff representatives chosen by their peers, the unions, management and the executive committee. If we want this company to thrive, we all need to be honest with one another, acknowledge each others concerns and motivations and WORK TOGETHER.

[Nassensteins Monster]

A bloody good start would be 360 degree reporting. It's prevalent throughout other corporations. Why not at QF? Managers need to know how they're performing in the eyes of their staff, as well as their superiors.

[Nassensteins Monster]

And next I'd be looking at how in the hell we can improve our productivity, starting with a holistic review of the company's policies and procedures. I heard CN claim he'd never seen an airline so hidebound by red tape. So let's cut it! How can we compete with one hand tied behind our backs with a red ribbon?

[Nassensteins Monster]

This is a very simple point - if we were competitive and we could be - lots more jobs would be available in Australia but some of the Super Lames would need to take a cold shower.

This comes back to the point about productivity. We COULD be so much more productive. Productivity in this country has been in decline for a decade - to the point where productivity growth has stagnated. If you're standing still you're going backwards. This is where the Govt needs to step up. Put some policies in place to increase national productivity. Management and exco need to work on how to get more bang for their buck from the LAMEs. I got plenty of ideas but I aint gonna do their job for them. I strongly suspect there are many like me. We'll give you some really good ideas to wring some profits out the machine. But you GOTTA LISTEN TO US!

[Nassensteins Monster]

And some of you managers have to change your attitude. Think like a businessman. Yes you save 100c in the dollar for every dollar you save. Yes, if you earn a dollar it may cost you 50c on the dollar earned. But look at it this way: you spent a buck and made two! The company grows instead of shrinks! A larger company can develop economies of scale that a smaller company cannot.

And stop LYING! Earn our trust! We are your greatest asset or your worst nightmare. The choice is yours.

[TIMA9X]

And stop LYING! Earn our trust! We are your greatest asset or your worst nightmare. The choice is yours.

Yep,
eVJCSfovyDs



.

[Sunfish]

Nassensteins monster:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Everyone needs to leave their baggage at the door, sit down at a round table and start again: staff representatives chosen by their peers, the unions, management and the executive committee. If we want this company to thrive, we all need to be honest with one another, acknowledge each others concerns and motivations and WORK TOGETHER.

Can't happen, won't happen. The managers you have now are narcissists and you would have to remove every one of them. They don't do "consultation".

By way of example, my son recently joined the Victoria Police. His last and final selection interview was with a very, very savvy person from the police HR/internal affairs team.

..From the questions they asked him, it was very clear they were looking to weed out the clever psychopaths and narcissists who might have got through the long and difficult selection process - who would be walking disasters as police officers, just like some of your Qantas managers.

The interviewer had his full profile, warts and all, available to them. They laid several "traps" for him that a narcissist/psychopath would have fallen into head first. Being a normal human being, my Son naturally avoided them. He didn't even understand what was going on until I explained it to him afterwards. He thought he was just having a little chat. I won't mention the questions asked.

You would need people of that interviewers caliber to go through every management level in Qantas to weed these creatures out - then work very hard to keep any more from creeping in.

[Nassensteins Monster]

Agreed, but it wont stop me stating that it is what is required. Of course it will never happen with the current model of remuneration and the current leadership from the board down, absent some angelic epiphany about the cruel and inhumane way they're treating their "human resources"... Unless they are appropriately incentivized to do so. The only way you motivate a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath to at least pretend to engage in what i'm pushing for is to make it worth their while. Measuring cooperation and collaboration for the purposes of delivering performance bonuses would pose a problem in the short term. Results will speak for themselves in the medium term however, using engagement and 360 degree reporting as two possible measures. Lets be clear:

YOU CANNOT DRAG YOUR EMPLOYEES KICKING AND SCREAMING IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT TO TAKE IF THEY ARE UNCERTAIN AND AFRAID. YOU HAVE TO LEAD THEM, OVERCOME THE FEAR, SUSPICION AND MISTRUST.

Cultural change in an organization IS possible with the right leadership. Look at Air New Zealand and GE Engine Line. But it starts at the top. And it wont happen without executive and managerial recognition of frontline employees job security concerns and the valuable input employees can have in operational decisions.

The alternative: disengagement, low morale, underperformance. It will be reflected in the continued underperformance and decline in the mainline product.

[hotnhigh]

Can you imagine if qf were a footy team. Captain Joyce and coach Clifford wouldn't make it out of the sheds. ........Do it as a team and do it my way. (sorry billy birmingham.)

[aveng]

YOU CANNOT DRAG YOUR EMPLOYEES KICKING AND SCREAMING IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT TO TAKE IF THEY ARE UNCERTAIN AND AFRAID.

What if it's just simply that smart employees that have worked their whole careers in aviation (considerably more than most managers) think they are making amateur mistakes. Lets face it, just about everyone from the cleaner to the senior captains think this Asia folly is going to end in disaster. People will form their own opinions and will follow clever, well thought out, engaged decisions.

[UPPERLOBE]

Let's not forget our original suspicions about the motives behind the current farce, the company is still worth more than the cost of buying a controlling interest.

Did we not see that interest work very nicely recently, "92% of shareholders voted for the remuneration package" well actually NO, just a very small minority of shareholders who hold 92% of the shares voted for said package.

We all know that this forum is followed very closely by various media hacks, and the point that they won't bring up or completely miss is that the AIPA & the ALAEA are both by choice called "associations" and not "unions", my experience after spending only 40 years at the rat is that most of the members of these associations are conservative right wing sort of people and are currently wondering why the airline that they've supported and been very compliant with over many years is now tearing great chunks out their collective ar5es.

[jaded boiler]

Perhaps that right wing bent was misguided.

[UPPERLOBE]

Misguided?

OK, substitute "right wing" with moderate if you wish. :ok: