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angryrat
10th Oct 2011, 21:44
Oh new piper, what a load of :mad:. So you are saying that you are a man... IMO , bludging off fellow employees by not paying union fees whilst taking all the benefits is not cool. I was going to use the word 'mates' in place of employees, but obviously you don't have any of these in QF.

The lens
10th Oct 2011, 21:51
Wider agenda in union stand-off with Qantas

October 11, 2011


Read more: Wider agenda in union stand-off with Qantas (http://www.smh.com.au/business/wider-agenda-in-union-standoff-with-qantas-20111010-1lhkt.html#ixzz1aPzK2ang)

NewPiper
10th Oct 2011, 21:53
It always takes no time at all before someone dis-appoints and turns what was starting to become a good discussion into a personal attack.

angryrat
10th Oct 2011, 22:08
Yes, you did it yourself by calling everyone that supports their union a boy. You don't even realise that you did it.

NewPiper
10th Oct 2011, 22:23
The name angryrat says it all really!

but I'm sorry if that is the way you interpret my posts. My intention is to make observations and statements rather than expressing my personal opinion.

Anyhow, I'm going to back to the sidelines now to sit and watch it all unfold.

NP

kotoyebe
11th Oct 2011, 00:28
Steve,

Congratulations on a great interview this morning with David Oldfield on 2UE this morning. It was great that he gave you some leeway to get your points across, which you did well.

Thanks to David Oldfield for being tough, but fair as well. Hopefully the message is starting to get out to the general public.

Now, If you can only get some of the Murdoch press to be a bit more balanced. That column by Andrew Bolt this morning wasn't. I don't think they even bother to research anything, or even pick up the phone to hear the other side.

ALAEA Fed Sec
11th Oct 2011, 00:41
You know what. Qantas are winning this media game. Not through reason, just through volume. They buy their media opportunities and no union can match that. We all know they are lying through their teeth and it turns the small number of fence sitting Qantas employees against them every time they spread rubbish.

Other union leaders and I only have limited opportunities for air time. I can guarantee though that a listener to any live media I do will only have to hear me speak once and they will at least realise that there are two sides to the story. In many of those cases the listener will be understanding of our plight. From that point in time, every lie that Qantas spread will work against them.

The river bank is a comfortable place to be.

Toolpants
11th Oct 2011, 01:06
Poor old Olivia Wirth. She is stunned and outraged at the Fed Secs latest comments.
Lets hope all the Qantas execs are.

Fantastic, That had the desired affect then.

It would be good to see the Qantas Execs requesting their million dollar pay rises at the annual meeting with full day strikes happening. Will the fund managers still feed the pigs.

angryrat
11th Oct 2011, 01:25
SP's 2UE interview.

Unions losing the Qantas battle? (http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/unions-losing-the-qantas-battle/20111011-1li85.html)

quagmire
11th Oct 2011, 01:56
Unions telling the general public to fly other airlines!
Their claims can be right, wrong, fair or unfair but steering people away from their own income source isn't real bright.
And it can't help...

fishers.ghost
11th Oct 2011, 02:08
http://www.adnews.com.au/images/dmImage/StandardImage/qantas1_mid1.jpg


Qantas launches anti-strike ad blitz

11 Oct 2011
By David Blight (http://www.adnews.com.au/journalists/david-blight)

Qantas has said it may continue to run its advertising campaign against union strikes if further disruptions occur, with full page print ads rolling out from yesterday.
The airline has launched a print campaign apologising for flight delays or cancellations, and has said it could run the campaign for as long as the unions continue to cause disturbances.
The print campaign, which launched yesterday and was created by Lawrence Creative Strategy, tells Qantas customers “We’re sorry”. It goes on to blame union action against the airline for delays and cancellations.
The ad reads: “We are doing all we can to minimise the impact of this action, but we know it has inconvenienced our customers and we sincerely apologise … We can’t give in to union demands that risk the future of Qantas … We urge these three unions to come to an agreement with Qantas that is fair and equitable.”
The campaign has already featured two separate executions, one which ran yesterday, and one which is running today. It is unclear if Qantas has any other executions planned.
The campaign runs across all major Australian newspaper titles, including The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, The Sydney Morning Herlad, The Age, The Daily Telegraph and others.
A spokeswoman for Qantas told AdNews that the campaign will run through the beginning of the week. However, she went on to say that the campaign may continue to run if the unions continue to cause disruptions.
Qantas has been caught up in a range of PR problems over the last year – including the grounding of some of its fleet, mass lay-offs and unions strikes. The airline recently called a global review (http://www.adnews.com.au/adnews/qantas-calls-global-pitch-roster-set-for-expansion) of its creative and media agency arrangements for the first time in ten years, putting roster agencies M&C Saatchi, Ogilvy, Mojo, Wonder and ZenithOptimedia on alert.
~This is nothing more than a"boo hoo poor me" piece that is trying to garner sympathy(my bold)

ALAEA Fed Sec
11th Oct 2011, 02:27
I've stood back and seen what happens when employees don't stand up for their jobs. The same people destroyed Ansett, closed down Sydney Heavy Maintenance, Roller Engine shops and component maintenance. There are countless examples.

When all is said and done it will be Qantas employees left to pick up the pieces. Passengers will return to support the very people who saved the airline. You need to see the big picture here. If they had their way with the APA fiasco Dixon would be $60 million richer and we would all be out of work.

Anulus Filler
11th Oct 2011, 02:43
new piper

Your point No 4 is exactly the reason why AIPA has asked its Pilot members to wear red ties. Its a classic 'silent' way of gathering and measuring support (sometimes fake) and increasing pressure on those members who may be toying with the idea of not participating or even worse, resigning from the union. It definitelysorts the men from the boys. In this case, the men are the ones who have an apposing view to thatof theunion and actually have the guts to express it.

N

So let me understand what your logic is. When over 90% of pilots voted for PIA in a confidential and individual vote, they may have not actually wanted to partake in industrial action. Your comments are somewhat perplexing but definately delusional.

Company management stooge here me thinks.

NewPiper
11th Oct 2011, 03:05
Anulus,

That 90% number sounds great on face value, but don't discount the possibility that it could also mean 90% of the Pilots are wrong and may ultimately be proven to be the stooges here to use use your term.

Time will tell. The shareholders would be quite entitled to demand a quick closure to all LH ops and maybe mirror an Alitalia type re-birth.

NP

Anulus Filler
11th Oct 2011, 03:15
Cactus
Might be time for a Union sponsored retort in the same papers?

Forget it. The papers would never want to bite the hand of that which feeds it. Let's face it, the longer this dispute goes on, the more money the media/papers make. That's why this whole event is sensationalized. It's paying for a lot of bills and will continue to do so for a long time to come. QF execs are only too obliging to piss as much money away as they can. Who said the media can't pull a good profit outside of an election year?

I guess it all ads up now as to why Qantas hardly advertised for quite some time before this dispute.

victor two
11th Oct 2011, 03:18
You clowns should stick to holding union sausage sizzles, waving your pathetic union banners and slapping each other on the back and laughing every time someone writes something negative about qantas. That's about all you seem capable of doing correctly.

Here's a new idea - Get back to work you bludgers!

Toolpants
11th Oct 2011, 03:24
quagmire

Unions telling the general public to fly other airlines!
Their claims can be right, wrong, fair or unfair but steering people away from their own income source isn't real bright.
And it can't help...


Quagmire, the only way we will have any affect is to first affect the profits.
If profits are affected, their jobs and bonuses may get affected.
That is all they are interested in.

If profits are still coming in, they wouldn’t care if a close family member died.

If they were serious about no upsetting passengers, they should advise them to use another airline for a while also. I would much prefer to be pre warned, fly virgin and get there than book a ticket on QF, get my flight cancelled and then see the CEO get a 70% pay rise.

Anulus Filler
11th Oct 2011, 03:41
Newpiper

You could also argue that management/execs are also 90% wrong . Going by their track record ( poor fleet/route choices, price fixing etc) , it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume so. After all, if APA had of bought us out, pretty sure we wouldn't be talking about Qantas today.

buttmonkey1
11th Oct 2011, 03:59
http://warriorwriters.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/troll.jpg

quagmire
11th Oct 2011, 04:25
Toolpants,
You may be right, there may be no other option. Reduced profitability is a bloody good excuse for more outsourcing however. It must be getting easier for management (yes we know they're [email protected]) to pass that by shareholders.

Please don't try and tell me that any airline in the world would try and turn passengers away as you suggest. It doesn't wash. Nor does passing off the unions 'pre warning' of customers as some sort of community service, rather than an act of commercial sabotage. Isn't reducing profits the intent of industrial action? Why go so much further?
We all understand this situation isn't very cordial but I don't think I've seen a union tactic quite so inflammatory in quite some time.

I dare say I won't be popular for saying any of this but if I was watching this as a movie, I'd still be wondering where the good guys are...

Mstr Caution
11th Oct 2011, 09:13
“If I was a person considering travel over the period up until Christmas I’d probably be looking at airlines other than Qantas because it’s likely there will be some disruptions,” he said.
“If I was a passenger I wouldn’t be purchasing a ticket with them at this stage.” S.P


“Telling customers not to fly with Qantas for the next three months will make the jobs (http://guttertrash.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/unions-qantas-made-up-death-threats/#) of our 1600 licensed engineers less secure and will not get the union any closer to an agreement.” Olivia Wirth


No Olivia, if you re read SP's quotes, you will find that he has not told passsengers not to fly with Qantas. He has stated that if HE was looking at travelling he would consider other alternatives.


It is in fact YOU that is the only one to mention CUSTOMERS in general.

hangarmba
11th Oct 2011, 10:21
Thanks for the heads up dudes. I have booked my families next trip on Jetstar - weren't many seats left but I guess JQ are going to make a killing out of all of this don't fly Qf business.

600ft-lb
11th Oct 2011, 12:24
Hah, another single post wonder.

Lucky you chose Jetstar because Qantas don't fly to Bali anymore.

Toolpants
11th Oct 2011, 12:45
That’s a bit silly hangarmba.

Where I work, Qantas Ramp (TWU) arrive and load the bags on JQ and Qantas LAME’s certify JQ.

You should have gone Virgin, they fly to Bali.

almostthere!
11th Oct 2011, 12:45
Come on, he booked Jetstar because there is no extra charges on baggage now thanks to the "QF group" management alienating another segment of their workforce! 4kg boogie boards to Bali are expensive otherwise.

But seriously, how how hard is it really? We ask for stuff that is ridiculous just like management do, then we sit down and DISCUSS everything and agree that some things need to be compromised, but right now all that Qantas management seems to do is say, "No, arghhh the unions have unreasonable demands (what like ensuring you don't constantly undercut or offshore our jobs), and they should come back to the negotiating table." ...... Um we never bloody left, the only problem is that the table keeps on getting off shored...

Clare Prop
11th Oct 2011, 12:47
Hmm, I don't need anyone to tell me that it's not a good idea to book a flight on Qantas, due to this industrial action I never will where there is an alternative because guess what, the pax actually have to be somewhere at a certain time and it's too much of a risk booking a flight with Qantas now or in the future if you actaully want to be assured that you can get on with your life rather than have things disrupted by a bunch of people who get paid shit loads more than most of us already.

Strike action is so out of date and just another nail in your beloved Labor party's coffin. :D

So, it's Virgin and Emirates for me from now on, seeyas!

MEA332
11th Oct 2011, 12:59
Clare Prop (http://www.pprune.org/members/122672-clare-prop) , I am sure you do not work Christmas day, Easter day, New Years Day etc and get to spend those special occasions with your family, unlike most of us LAMEs, Pilots and operational staff who work a 24hour 7 daya a week roster that does not stop for anyone. Our base Rate is well below any skilled labour work in Australia and the money is made up on penalty rates. If I call in sick on a sunday, my family will go without for that week or two. That is how tuff it is getting for most of us. Our EBA is outdated and needs a complete overhaul. All other major airlines pay their LAMEs a salary and not the ancient pay structure we are on.

As for Emirates and Virgin, they have the perfect Aircraft to fly over via the Middle East. Funny how great your product can be when you invest your money in a new fleet of 777s, A340s and A380s and not a repainted 747 Donkey and so called Management pay rises.

600ft-lb
11th Oct 2011, 13:22
Clare Prop, didn't cha listen to the news ?
The Qantas industrial action is spreading.. like a virus.. to dare I say it, the immaculate conception that is Jetstar

Qantas services cancelled as bans spread to Jetstar (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-services-cancelled-as-bans-spread-to-jetstar-20111010-1lhkj.html)

But its a bonus for the traveling unwashed worker hater such as yourself, you'll be able to take 25kg without getting slugged an extra $100 for that extra couple of kilos.

middleman
11th Oct 2011, 15:21
so Jetstar stand to lose $50,000 in excess baggage charges from 1 day.

That's nearly $18 Million a year they make in excess baggage.
Not a bad little earner!

Clare Prop
11th Oct 2011, 16:19
Travelling and unwashed I may be, 600ft-lb if that is how you like to describe pilots. Whatever. I can fly myself around Australia but sometimes it is more convenient to sit in the back, but if I need to be somewhere then I can't be subjected to the whims of unions or management, I need a transport provider that gives the punters the product they have paid for...a journey to a destination.

My point being that gaining public sympathy even with people within the industry isn't happening.
And I have to say your attitude towards me as you assumed was just a stupid pax who deserves to be screwed over pretty much sums it up.
MEA332, I am self employed so have no concept of things like "weekends" and "christmas" or "penalty rates" they are just another working day to me and I'm sorry but I've never found them any more sacred than any other day of the week/year. We're all doing it tough in this industry, mate.

Good luck, I hope you are very very careful what you wish for.

Sunfish
11th Oct 2011, 16:44
Clare prop:

but if I need to be somewhere then I can't be subjected to the whims of unions or management, I need a transport provider that gives the punters the product they have paid for...a journey to a destination.

No "Whims" are involved. The ALAEA is engaged in protected industrial action which is arranged, notified and published days in advance.

If you are too stupid to read the papers and do a little research before you make a booking then that's your problem.

Stop trying to paint the ALAEA as a bunch of Twentieth century Luddites. The days of wildcat strikes and workplace Communism are long gone.

600ft-lb
11th Oct 2011, 17:07
I am self employed so have no concept of things like "weekends" and "christmas" or "penalty rates" they are just another working day to me and I'm sorry but I've never found them any more sacred than any other day of the week/year. We're all doing it tough in this industry, mate.Mate, you're the one who has come into a thread about an EBA negotiation and said

have things disrupted by a bunch of people who get paid shit loads more than most of us alreadywhich if you knew anything, you'd know that most of us are on less then $100,000 a year despite this imaginary figure of $170,000 that has been bandied around. I made less then $100,000 doing 12 hour shift work 4on 4off. Sounds great in theory but yes I too have no idea what day it is, my first day off is wasted, I haven't had xmas off in 7 years, I work outside in the pissing rain at 3am fixing a failed hydraulic component or changing wheels and brakes. It's great huh. How lucky we are to get penalty rates for a reduced life span.

Then to have fools like you talk utter shit about us, or journalists talk utter shit about how much I'm making... I'd love to make $170k. Fact is I don't. Fact is most of us don't.

But I have come to realise 1 thing in this whole dispute, people in general are gullible. If a so called 'trusted' source of information, ie the TV or that rag made from paper tells them something, they believe it. No questioning, no challenging of the information. It's accepted as gospel from the moment is passes through the visual cortex and is registered in the brain.

I also realise that Qantas knows this.

1+1 = people like you, who believe the bullshit without question and public opinion has therefore been swayed. They know you're a gullible pleb and you've been completely played for what you are.

Meanwhile the rest of us, who are actually doing the job and have been for years and year sit back in disbelief when fools like you make the comments you do and journalists like some discussed in here talk utter rubbish in front of millions of people, knowing full well the gravity of what they're saying and its effect of effectively brainwashing people through repetition.

Good luck, I hope you are very very careful what you wish for. And what is that ? Do you know our claim ? 3% and job security ?
Yeah I'll be careful with that. Idiot.

And heres a link to enlighten yourself, not that I expect you to believe actual real facts http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/agreements/wpa/CAUN085259566.pdf

Sunfish
11th Oct 2011, 17:47
Predictably, "The Australian" once again sides with the rich against the poor, the powerful against the weak and lovingly places its mouth at the service of its advertisers.

THE reckless irresponsibility of Qantas engineers and the Transport Workers Union in urging the public not to book seats with the airline between now and Christmas shows their contempt for a company that not only pays their wages but which is an integral part of the lives of Australians. Such industrial thuggery is jeopardising the airline's future in a competitive marketplace. Rolling strikes have already inconvenienced 46,500 passengers and are set to disrupt many more, forcing travellers to look elsewhere for transport or stay at home.

The enviable safety record of Qantas is vital and should remain a priority. However, that does not preclude some outsourcing of even highly skilled jobs, which is the issue at the heart of the current dispute. Airlines operate in a tough global marketplace and Qantas must have the flexibility to hire suitably qualified contract staff if doing so improves operational efficiency.

While the unions have every right to tough negotiation and appropriate action, they must also consider the travelling public and the long-term viability of the airline. If the Fair Work system is unable to resolve the issue, then the law needs to be reviewed. This ugly dispute is another reason why the bipartisan industrial policy of timidity should be abandoned. This week's Newspoll shows Labor's lead as the best party to handle industrial relations has fallen from 26 points to just four points since the last election.

Steve Purvinas, the federal secretary of the engineering union, showed how far the union had lost touch with the real world yesterday when he promised the strikes would stop on December 18 for Christmas but warned they could start again in January. In the meantime he promised a four-hour stoppage on Friday and full-day strikes from October 28. Then, with breathtaking cynicism, he preached that "Qantas shouldn't be taking passengers' money then getting them to their destinations late". The dispute is one of Australia's most bitter since the 1998 waterfront confrontation. As the unions and Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce dig in for the long haul the dispute is shaping as a litmus test of the nation's industrial relations system. Not only is the future of Australia's all-important flying kangaroo at stake, but so is the ability of companies to function efficiently and competitively in the modern world.


For starters, Steve Purvinas is indeed guilty - of stating the bleedin' obvious. If you are a punter considering flying anywhere at the moment; it is unwise to book a ticket on an airline in the middle of its self made industrial dispute. Given that only morons fly Qantas these days, I think Steve was probably right to remind them that a dispute was going on, since considering the low quality "Qantas experience" thanks to management cost cutting, passengers probably wouldn't notice.

The Australian then decides that the ALAEA is the reincarnation of the Waterside Workers Union: "Contempt for the company", "Industrial Thuggery", "Jeopardising the company's future" and of course the emotive "Rolling strikes". Really, that is enough to make me choke on my cornflakes.

Now lets get real. The ALAEA industrial campaign has been a model of good behaviour as is required these days by Fair Work Australia. The days of "out on the grass, brothers" are long gone. Each stop work meeting has been announced to the company days in advance, in writing, as is required by law.

What we are watching is not the old style "Gunfight at the OK Corral" type of industrial action, today its more like some form of stylised Kabuki play; a slow motion act of ritual statements, grunts and poses, all choreographed by the Fair Work Act. There are no surprises these days, no wildcat strikes and no walkouts. The decay of Qantas on time performance was predictable since the day the first advance notice of a stop work meeting was emailed to Qantas. Any discomfort to the traveling public is all Qantas managements own work - part of their plan to "win" the dispute.

The Australian conveniently fails to mention that negotiations over the Engineers EBA have been going on since October 1 2010 - that's right it's now over a year! My understanding is that Qantas made no offer at all during that time and simply sat across the table and said and did nothing, unless you call the persecution of Six Engineers who reported safety defects a constructive attempt at good faith negotiation.

So now Qantas Management get all upset and indignant that the long suffering engineers patience is finally exhausted? I think that the long suffering employees of Qantas, all of them, have far more cause to be indignant at the incompetent management and the studied contempt Qantas management shows for its staff.

How would you like it if your boss marched into your workplace and told you and your colleagues that he was thinking of outsourcing your jobs to China, and would let you know his decision in Three months? How would you like it when after crying poor and asking staff to sacrifice pay rises in the interests of the survival of the company which the employees dutifully did, management awarded itself mind bogglingly huge pay rises?

How would you like it if you witnessed the deliberate destruction of a national icon on the pretext of "Saving" it? How would you like it if you were told that you had no future as a "Legacy" airline employee and that you were to be discarded as soon as management had finished sucking the life out of you? How would you like it, as an Australian, if you were told that the Qantas future lay in Asia and that Australians, and Australian workers could go **** themselves? And finally, how would you like it when your bosses keep awarded themselves huge pay rises while telling you that you aren't even worth keeping, let alone maintaining the purchasing power of your wage?



Fair go for the flying kangaroo | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/fair-go-for-the-flying-kangaroo/story-e6frg71x-1226164268603)

Longbow25
11th Oct 2011, 19:14
Buy that man a beer!

What a pity this response will never see the light of day in the main stream media.

Keep the faith lads; it's win or perish.

ALAEA Fed Sec
11th Oct 2011, 20:30
Sunfish can you take a few calls for me today?

blubak
11th Oct 2011, 22:44
Steve,
You mentioned in your e mail on monday that the company had been asked for a meeting today to negotiate,was a response received?,is there a meeting today or any day soon?

Busboy92
11th Oct 2011, 23:14
Its not just "The Australian" that thinks differently from the unions.....

From e-Global Travel Media 12/10/11

"I know that I go on about this sometimes…OK quite often, but I am still stunned by the naivety and arrogance of the unions and some Qantas workers in continuing their pay and conditions demands, when the consensus of opinion from industry analyst is that Qantas as an Australian airline is dead.

Some media have called it a life or death struggle, but there is no doubt that this dispute is way past that with Qantas, as a traditional Australia legacy carrier, now a dead corpse on the floor, all CPR and shock treatment having failed, the time of death announced, the body is in the body bag and about the hauled away to the mortuary, with the body parts about to be taken and donated to another body – that is the Qantas to be based in Asia.

I do not get it that the unions and some workers can’t understand that no amount of CPR or in their case striking, is ever going to revive this corpse, with the unions and works needing to realise that they have performed Kamikaze on Qantas as they have known it and they have better get their applications in for flipping burgers, with the fat cat wages days they have enjoyed for too long have gone, no matter how long they strike – and they only have themselves to blame!

An interesting series of media coverage this week Alan Joyce, especially in News media, revealed some of the reasons why the future of Qantas lies in Asia through its new premium “Red Q” or “One Asia” airline, supported by low-cost Jetstar, which has already technically moved to Asia, with the new Qantas premium airline going to fly luxuriously appointed Airbus A320s out of a Singapore or Kuala Lumpur hub, at substantially lower costs that it would in Australia.

Joyce explained last week that the mathematics are very simple, with the high cost location of Australia, simply unsustainable when compared with Qantas’ lower-cost Middle East and Asian carriers competitors, so he simply had to do something or die!

He said that with only 19% of Australians now flying Qantas internationally, the airline cannot survive on labour costs that are 24% higher than its competitors, leading Qantas international to lose more than $200 million last year – as it struggles to compete on fares, making no sense whatsoever!

What would you do if your business was losing $200million a year and you could run it for a lot less elsewhere, with a lot less hassle and significantly greater productivity – I think we all know the answer – as they say, it is a no brainer!

Joyce also said that the issue is not just about pay, with Qantas pilots and engineers the highest paid in the world, but it is also about productivity, with for example, the airline getting about 480 hours a year of work out of their pilots, compared to Singapore Airlines and Emirates getting about 800 hours a year out of theirs, with pilots saying that it is all about safety, but both Emirates and Singapore have exemplary safety records and are run to the very highest international standards.

With Qantas A380 pilots being paid a tad over $380,000 a year, Joyce says there’s no shortage of applicants to be captains in Asia on $200,000 a year, with this another no brainer, with if these pilots are as good as Qantas pilots and as well trained, and there is no reason to believe they are not as they are the pilots flying the competing carriers’ aircraft, by the way Singapore Airlines trains their pilots right here on the Sunshine Coast, then why would you pay someone a salary twice as high as you need to?

Joyce also commented on licensed engineers and their current strikes, which are clearly designed to cause maximum disruption to passengers with by the way even this morning, Union leader Steve Purvinas advising passengers not to fly Qantas over the Christmas period because there will be strikes, with the strikes aimed at protecting job security, which Qantas says is based on unaffordable practices, suited to aircraft technology decades old, outdated, for new low maintenance aircraft.

Qantas quotes the example of the traditional “walk around” by a licensed engineer and the multi-point sight check on each aircraft after each flight, which is no longer needed for at least half of Qantas’ fleet, yet the engineers insist it remains in place, with Joyce saying that no other airline does it, adding that Qantas has the equivalent of fourteen licensed engineers per aircraft, while Qantas competitors average two engineers.

I liken this whole scenario between Qantas and the Unions and some Qantas staff, especially engineers and other staff, whose jobs are most certainly going to, as their continuing to hold desperately on to the life raft by their fingernails, while they can hear the air hissing loudly in their ears as the life raft slowly sinks in the water…………..as a sparkling white and red A380 with a new Red Q or One Asia logo on the tail circling overhead, reporting the life raft’s position to the authorities, with Joyce and his team on board the A380, as it levels out, increasing height majestically, disappearing into the clouds as the passengers are served a sumptuous dinner of glorious Peking Duck at a fraction of what it would cost in Australia – ah well!"
Industry Insider Commentary and Opinion by John Alwyn-Jones, Global Travel Media Special Correspondent


Like it or not folks, this is how much of the media sees it and thus how the public will see it.

Conductor
11th Oct 2011, 23:20
600ft-lb said:

But I have come to realise 1 thing in this whole dispute, people in general are gullible. If a so called 'trusted' source of information, ie the TV or that rag made from paper tells them something, they believe it. No questioning, no challenging of the information. It's accepted as gospel from the moment is passes through the visual cortex and is registered in the brain.

I also realise that Qantas knows this.

1+1 = people like you, who believe the bullshit without question and public opinion has therefore been swayed. They know you're a gullible pleb and you've been completely played for what you are.


Very well said. When we ask ourselves "How did we end up with this crap (insert name of board / government / council etc here)? - the answer is usually that is happened while we were being too lazy to give a crap. Apathy is a dangerous thing.

ALAEA Fed Sec
11th Oct 2011, 23:26
Qantas emailed me and said they do not want to meet today.

I have no doubt they will continue to roll out the comment - we urge the union to return to the negotiation table.

reacher
11th Oct 2011, 23:35
Steve, at the risk of stating the obvious; have you approached (bombarded) the media outlets with their response and compared it to OW's request that you guys go back to the table?

Sunfish
12th Oct 2011, 00:05
Can someone explain to me how a "dead", "loss making" airline makes a $500 million profit?

Inquiring minds want to know. Whats the secret?

Oakape
12th Oct 2011, 00:50
both Emirates and Singapore have exemplary safety records and are run to the very highest international standards
Now that made me laugh out loud! If only people knew the real situation.

megle2
12th Oct 2011, 01:14
Fed Sec - I assume you forwarded the email on to the press
or can't you do that

ALAEA Fed Sec
12th Oct 2011, 01:24
I've been telling them but there are so many more important points I need to make in the limited opportunities we get.

hewlett
12th Oct 2011, 02:01
Fed Sec. Can the Qantas EBA offer be posted here? That may put some of the journos back in their box, GT (tosser) in particular. Considering the last point has also been outsourced since the offer made.

Worrals in the wilds
12th Oct 2011, 02:15
That Globalmedia article is written by a self proclaimed PR hack. From the experience below, he doesn't appear to have a shred of aviation experience, organizing tourism marketing is about as close as he gets.

John Alwyn-Jones
Media and PR Advisor and Event Manager
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-alwyn-jones/18/5b7/806


I don't think the public do follow the media blindly these days. The ferals don't follow any of it (because they don't care) and the smart people are getting very sceptical about cash for comment, bias and all the rest of it. Qantas may be winning on volume, but I think Steve's winning on content.
The phrases I keep hearing from a variety of non-aviation people about this issue are 'fat cats', 'layoffs', 'selling Qantas offshore' and 'executive salaries.'

The Australian making the ALAEA out to be a bunch of waterfront thugs is hardly surprising when you consider the number of 'bring back Work Choices' opinion pieces they've been running lately. Another one was about how shift penalties are an anachronism and should be gotten rid of (obviously written by someone who doesn't do night shifts). It's blatantly obvious that their editorial stance is anti-worker and pro big business.

If they had their way we'd all be earning a bag of potatoes a day and be Jolly Grateful For the Privilege :yuk:.

ALAEA Fed Sec
12th Oct 2011, 02:24
Qantas haven't even made a complete settlement offer.

600ft-lb
12th Oct 2011, 02:24
Co Founder and Advisor

TheChairmansClub®


Leisure, Travel & Tourism industry
January 2005 – Present (6 years 10 months)
Executive role as Co-Founder, working with fellow TheChairmansClub® Directors and Advisors creating unique sporting events, tours and experiences. From 2006 TheChairmansClub® has provided exclusive travel, accommodation and ground transfer packages for major clients.


Now that's ironic

King William III
12th Oct 2011, 03:03
I've been telling them but there are so many more important points I need to make in the limited opportunities we get.

How about telling them that Olivia is bad-mouthing her own Uncle ( 40+ years service) when she bad mouths the LAMEs…..isn't she a nice girl!!

adsyj
12th Oct 2011, 03:27
King William

Are you sure that is not an urban myth. I was told recently that Livvy's boyfriend was a pilot.

I think they are both untrue.

bandit2
12th Oct 2011, 03:48
It's interesting to note, that these disruptions could be further minimised by Qantas, by actually bringing people in on overtime. As stated on all the notices sent by the Union to Qantas.

Fris B. Fairing
12th Oct 2011, 04:57
Politicians and more particularly the general public need to be confronted with the fact that there is more to this industrial unrest than meets the eye. Australian workers are not permitted to take industrial action when they are presented with daily evidence that the board and management are either incompetent or are deliberately trying to destroy Qantas, but they can withdraw their labour over a modest single digit pay claim when the company will not engage in meaningful talks while the CEO feels that he is entitled to a 71% increase. Unfortunately, all the general public see in this is pay claims and inconvenience to travellers. They have no appreciation of the underlying anger felt by the staff while their leaders set about dismantling a proud national icon and turning it into something loathsome. It's not about dinosaurs being unwilling to accept change. It's all about long term employees who are trustees of the corporate memory watching short term poseurs ignoring hard earned lessons of the past. In carelessly discarding things that made Qantas special they have lost sight of the concept of doing the job properly. They need to be reminded that profit through mediocrity is failure.

If indeed Qantas international is underperforming, that’s not the fault of the staff. That is the fault of management who continue to be rewarded for their failures. If indeed Qantas international is underperforming, it may have more to do with the fact that many managers came from domestic operations and never really grasped the fact that international operations are different. Because they are out of their depth they adopt the “ignore it and it might go away” approach. The tragedy is that their wish is being fulfilled.

Clearly the penny hasn’t dropped for the majority of the general public that there has to be more to this if three of the major unions are in dispute with the company. This is understandable when the public get their “facts” from full-page Qantas ads and a compliant media. This imbalance needs to be corrected. Could not the unions combine their resources to fund newspaper ads to counter Qantas propaganda? This would also serve to present a united front and mitigate any suggestion that it is all about a pay grab.

Pray for Qantas.

Red Baron
12th Oct 2011, 05:35
Meeting notices and proxy forms should have arrived for QF staff who are shareholders. Once again shareholders are being asked to vote on the re-election of Directors, the remuneration report and the long term incentive plan for Alan Joyce.

I urge you all to view this article online here and make your shareholding count at the Qantas AGM:

www.asu.asn.au/media/airlines_qantas/20111004_qantas.html (http://www.asu.asn.au/media/airlines_qantas/20111004_qantas.html)

Maintain the rage! :E

Ngineer
12th Oct 2011, 05:58
both Emirates and Singapore have exemplary safety records and are run to the very highest international standards

I remember clearly a certain manager making a very similar statement shortly before the A380 engine incident. We immediately grounded the fleet, some others took a chance and kept operating for some time. A small example of things that can go unoticed by people who make carefree statements. Why sell out your own companies history of safety to that of the competitors??

pab768
12th Oct 2011, 06:06
Fris B. Fairing
"If indeed Qantas international is underperforming, it may have more to do with the fact that many managers came from domestic operations and never really grasped the fact that international operations are different."

What a load of [email protected]&. The whole "Red tail, Blue tail" debate is sooooo last century! Time to move on! You're forgetting what part of the operation is actually making money for the airline - DOMESTIC!!!!!!!

QF22
12th Oct 2011, 06:38
Well your last comment certainly shows what colour you are !
Yes it was last century, literally!
Let me see A330-200s for domestics ops bcoz they thought they were short range like 767-200s.
A330s instead of 777 s bcoz they were cheap! ( you get what you pay for!)
Bow tie boy surrounded himself with his blue buddies, it was the start of the rot, and the red rat has gone downhill ever since.
As a mate used to say QF is just a domestic airline that flies overseas occasionally !
And JQ just makes matters worse !
QF RIP !

One Eye Redundant
12th Oct 2011, 08:12
King William III,

Maybe blood is thicker than water. I can confirm that Olivia's uncle is a LAME with over 40 years service, but, being that close to retirement, wouldn't a nice redundancy package be lovely.... Then again I'm probably giving her way more credit than she would deserve.

C441
12th Oct 2011, 08:15
You're forgetting what part of the operation is actually making money for the airline - DOMESTIC!!!!!!!

Until the short haul Pilot's EBA negotiations commence next year. :{

Silverado
12th Oct 2011, 08:43
I earned $108,000 gross last financial year.

12hr 24/7/365 roster

16yrs QF service

10yrs as a LAME

LAME on 2 aircraft types

Just sayin:cool:

UP D Date
12th Oct 2011, 08:59
Keep up the great work FedSec, heard you on the radio and was very impressed, I think the Qantas management spin is starting to be seen for what it is!! Bring on the AGM!! ...its astonishing to watch qantas management alienate their entire workforce!!! Maybe the managers shoud all publish their 'engagement' results!!

600ft-lb
12th Oct 2011, 09:00
I earned $108,000 gross last financial year.
12hr 24/7/365 roster
16yrs QF service
10yrs as a LAME
LAME on 2 aircraft types
Just sayinhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif

So you got paid less then a Jetstar LAME with 1 licence on day 1.

Greedy unionist are you!

Silverado
12th Oct 2011, 09:13
Quote:
I earned $108,000 gross last financial year.
12hr 24/7/365 roster
16yrs QF service
10yrs as a LAME
LAME on 2 aircraft types
Just sayin
So you got paid less then a Jetstar LAME with 1 licence on day 1.

Greedy unionist are you!

And that Jetstar LAME got paid less than a Virgin Tech LAME with 1 licence on day 1.

And thats a fact, not a complaint and not $170,000

BP2197
12th Oct 2011, 11:10
At least the brothers at Jetstar will have job security. You know, with all the QF pax heading off to other airlines their business will be booming.

griffin one
12th Oct 2011, 11:26
whilst we voted for the ALAEA to unamiously fight for job security, Exactly how does spruking to the media to fly with another operator confirm our employment?
As a fully paid member my support was 100% behind the fedsec and the ALAEA.
JUST REMEBER SP IF WERE OUT OF A JOB SO ARE YOU.

Silverado
12th Oct 2011, 12:03
whilst we voted for the ALAEA to unamiously fight for job security, Exactly how does spruking to the media to fly with another operator confirm our employment?

Remember its not about disrupting the passenger, If that means they need to fly on another carrier temporarily, so be it. Will QF lose some passengers permanently? Probably.

Remember overtime has been offered to avoid disruption to the passengers, but has been rejected.

As a fully paid member my support was 100% behind the fedsec and the ALAEA.
JUST REMEBER SP IF WERE OUT OF A JOB SO ARE YOU.

SP doesn't work for QF anymore and the ALAEA represents all LAME's in this country not just Qantas employed ones.

ALAEA Fed Sec
12th Oct 2011, 12:23
JUST REMEBER SP IF WERE OUT OF A JOB SO ARE YOU.
Got that.

I note Griffin that before we kicked off that you were calling for immediate strike action numerous times. We are doing that slowly by cranking the action up each week. Your option or the chosen one, labour is being withdrawn.

Do you think our action will be more successful with option

a) union strikes, passengers get to destinations late, company keeps your pay and the money for the airfares.

or

b) union strikes, passengers get to destination on time on other airline, company keeps your pay but loses the airfares.

In case you missed the Joyce announcement in Aug, they are winding up the airline in favour of new entities in Asia. They started turning pax away years ago when they allowed the International market share to drop from 38% to 18% because they dropped destinations and frequencies. I can tell you are a passionate member but it may just be appropriate to take stock for a bit and look at the bigger picture.

When the dispute ends and they do commit to maintenance and an airline in Australia, there will be no more powerful an image than the union leaders shaking hands smiling with the CEO, whoever that may be, as we work together to rebuild the airline we all love. That's when the passengers will come back.

Stanley42
12th Oct 2011, 13:29
From a QF techie, well said Steve. Love your work.

King William III
12th Oct 2011, 23:03
At least the brothers at Jetstar will have job security. You know, with all the QF pax heading off to other airlines their business will be booming.

Yeah, but they'll have to learn to make their own decisions and fix their own problems….not run to Big Brother for help and advice like they did with their A320 earlier this week…..anyone else see that on the workload….??………no doubt for free, of course!!

( yep, that's right, A320 !! Go figure!!) :ugh:

duderanch
12th Oct 2011, 23:50
Just been thru the QF offer thats been on the table since March and still is.

3%

a clause to 'discuss' doing IFE work.

a clause to 'discuss' a380 Heavy Maint

EASA training for the 'chosen ones' only.

Now put that with Nastyswines notice last week that QF lame's won't be doing the IFE on reconfig a/c, that makes it now

3%

No IFE work

we'll 'discuss' with you why we've decided to not give you the a380 HM chks.

EASA training for a small few



I'll save the moderator the trouble from disciplining me for some serious swearing by ending my transmission now.

Toolpants
13th Oct 2011, 02:03
Whether we like it or not, the only way to make any progress in this is to affect profits.

The first time the QF executives actually got upset was with SP comments about flying another airline. It seemed up until then, everything was going exactly as they planned.

They will have a budget for this dispute, until we breach that budget they will not negotiate. Knowing the kamikaze CEO we have, the budget for this is probably $500M. The quicker we get there, the quicker we can negotiate.

JT9D
13th Oct 2011, 02:23
Keep up the good work Fed Sec..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

qf 1
13th Oct 2011, 02:55
well said toolpants:D

Roger that.
13th Oct 2011, 02:57
I'm with JT9, keep up the good work Steve. It takes me time to get rid of a tuff nugget. It's gonna be the same with AJ!

saintgeorge
13th Oct 2011, 06:52
I think its all gone to far. When union leaders advise the public to not fly Qantas it means they have lost it. Don't make this an ego trip you are playing with peoples lives and you are doing it very carelessly. We may be managed by a poor team at the moment but the union is killing us in both the eye's of the public and the union members. Hopefully members will stand up at tomorrows meeting and voice their concern at where we are heading. Unions can never loose - if the company goes broke or sacks everyone the Union will say it was the companies fault, If we get a good outcome the Union will pat themselves on the back. Before you attack me have a long think about what is happening and how the leadership is handling it and no I am not a manager but a concerned Sydney Base LAME.

Disengagement
13th Oct 2011, 07:24
Well done to Steve and all the team , you must all remember this is not a battle fought by a few , the union is only a backbone and without a body supporting it it is crippled .So one and all Lames stand tall and with pride and be a body of one with your support to the ALAEA :D:D:D:D:D:D

Just a thought when there is a stalemate between parties how about a debate between the ALAEA and Qantas over the EBA , with a live web feed for all to watch :ok:

Also is the rumor true that Virgin will accept Qantas Staff Travel Bonus Voucher $250 and $200 ones http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon5.gif

airsupport
13th Oct 2011, 07:30
Just been watching AJ on the News, incredible, he was appealing to the Unions to return to negotiations and with lower demands, this from someone who just received a 71 percent pay rise. :rolleyes:

Red Baron
13th Oct 2011, 08:04
ABC radio said this afternoon that the Federal Government are now going to step in as each party is slowly destroying the Qantas brand. What are you guys going to do then should this happen?

Shed Dog Tosser
13th Oct 2011, 08:11
saint george and company,

No union or union member has said do not fly Qantas.

One union leader said for the next little while, he would choose not to fly Qantas ( as this is looking to be a drawn out process with no end in sight ).

Well done all the unions, stand together.

CaptCloudbuster
13th Oct 2011, 08:12
Bring it on! Desperate actions from a desperate "management".

Political intervention followed by mass offshoring to Asia gunna be a hard one to "negotiate"....

UPPERLOBE
13th Oct 2011, 08:12
saintgeorge put your socks and slippers on you sound like you have cold feet.

Sick of all this crap about union leaders advising people not on book on Qantas at the moment.

Was that not practical advice? Engineers are practical people we tell it like it is because we are trained that way, so please do not parrot the bs Qantas media spin here.

Angle of Attack
13th Oct 2011, 08:27
Note;

Do not take on QF Engineers!

Note;

You will lose!

Enough said!

I had a lot of other opinions but decided that was best, basically it is true any exec can sit in their little lounge but engineers keep the joint going!

king spotter
13th Oct 2011, 10:17
I understand saintgeorges thoughts but I disagree.
We have been pushed into a corner and are reacting in the only way possible. If we do nothing and the company folds, we will ask ourselves as others will ask 'why didn't you do something?'
What concerns me is that we will be blamed for some sort of collapse of the QF brand, when in my opinion that's what the board is after. Are we playing into their hands?
I think we really need to push home, as SP has stated, that we, the real staff are here for the long haul and are the backbone of this great company who DONOT harbour a longing for a quick dollar by sucking the guts from it then to vanish, never to be seen again.
Convincing yourself in the mirror that you are doing it for the good of the company doesn't make it right.

Clipped
13th Oct 2011, 10:25
Keep steering the ship SP, steady as she goes. Good work mate.

The frustration on their faces, priceless. We're truly getting under their skin.

ALAEA Fed Sec
13th Oct 2011, 10:29
And who in the hell knows what the ALAEA will do next?

chockchucker
13th Oct 2011, 11:00
FedSec, I am a supporter of your cause. However, play the tape to the end for me will you. What happens if your 'buddy' Martin Ferguson and the government step in and bring a halt to the P.I.A. ?

ALAEA Fed Sec
13th Oct 2011, 11:10
If they thought Dean Mighell caused them trouble during election time imagine what this nutcase could do.

Take five
13th Oct 2011, 11:24
Geoff Dixon - Now head of Tourism Australia.

His mate John Singleton - Advertising and control of media input.

Allan Joyce - New planes will fix themselves, what do we need engineers for.
30% pay reductions all round, to be gobbled up by greedy CEO's and board members.

Leigh Clifford - Lets destroy unionism in Australia.

All of these maggots wish for, are gains for themselves, with another buyout, and hopefully with the governments approval.

What a joke.

This insanity has gone on for too long.

How much money does one person need to live comfortably.

CEO's remuneration should be tied to the average workers wage in a company by a formula which rewards everyone in that company equally.

If a company makes a profit, its shareholders should also benefit.

We, the workers of Australia, will fight this with every fibre in our body, as we voted against work choices for a fair and just deal for all.

They will not win.

It is war again, not brought on by us, but by them.

They will be spent, and karma and justice will prevail once more.

chockchucker
13th Oct 2011, 11:51
Well, that's all good and well FedSec. However, I just hope the water isn't over your head.


Like I say, I am a supporter of the cause but commenting to the effect of don't fly Qantas is amateur hour. We need to play smarter than that.


No need to antagonize the opposition. Our actions (o/t bans and the subsequent effects) should be left to make our point heard.


I appreciate that sitting in a room opposite the Qantas negotiation stonewall artists would be an exercise in extreme frustration. Just don't give the bastards the satisfaction of supplying the media with quotes they can make you eat.


And I hope the ALAEA team has a contingency for when this weak federal government puts it's incompetent 2 cents in via FWA. Sounds to me like the end game will come from them before Christmas.

Long Bay Mauler
13th Oct 2011, 14:07
Gee,I don't remember Martin Ferguson being so soft on companies when he was head of the ACTU.

My,how times have changed.

QF22
13th Oct 2011, 14:54
Just remember no matter what happens, they cant force anybody to do OT.
You still have to work within the procedures manual, AMM, MEL etc . .
No short cuts, take 5, and remember safety is our priority.
GLTA !

Big M
13th Oct 2011, 20:33
Damn straight QF22,

If our PIA is kyboshed as the PR machine is now angling for - there will be one almighty concentration on:

*SAFETY BEFORE SCHEDULE
*Take Five.
*B-Safe
*Air-Safe
*Equipment pre-use checks
*Checking of qualification currency etc, etc

There are many ways to win a war - and we have lots of weapons.

Best of all - if any manager even thinks of "harrassing, intimidating or applying pressure" to anyone doing their job correctly - they will be reported immediately to management and / or the whistleblower hotline contacted. (as per executive order)

I'll pull up a nice cosy position on that bank - no matter how long it takes - or no matter what intervention happens - i'll be sure to see some bodies float past - you can bet on it.

airsupport
13th Oct 2011, 22:07
Steve,

Just saw Martin Ferguson on TV, he says you are UNAUSTRALIAN. :uhoh:

Then he rambled on about how because YOU are NOT doing the right thing the Government may be forced to make you negotiate under Fair Work Australia, is that not want you are doing and want anyway. :confused:

After I could take no more of any of the News services which only put the Qantas view, I was listening to just one of our normal radio stations. They had a brief news segment quoting Olivia and AJ about how it is ALL the Unions fault, but then they have a talkback session, I nearly wet myself laughing, the Public are NOT as stupid as Olivia and AJ think, EVERY caller wanted to discuss the trouble at Qantas, and while all were disappointed at the disruptions EVERY caller said they knew it was all the fault of Qantas and NOT the Unions, despite the host trying to put the official Qantas rubbish. :ok:

Seems most people are not as gullible as Olivia and AJ think. :ok:

adsyj
13th Oct 2011, 22:23
Wasn't Martin Ferguson head of the ACTU.

It would seem these traditional union guys are a sell out.

Steve, are you getting support ACTU in this matter. Do they still run the ALP, I thought that was stiil the case given most of the senior Union guys were given a free ride into safe labour seats.

There is skullduggery everywhere it would seem.

Longbow25
13th Oct 2011, 23:07
Rest assured everyone, that as a lifelong Labor voter, should the Federal Government ever choose to intervene in this dispute between the ALAEA and that airline, it would certainly be the last time I ever voted for Labor (in any form) in any election.

Furguson's views seem in stark contrast to his previous positions within the ACTU but then why am I surprised at that, he is simply nothing more than a politician.:=

Disengagement
14th Oct 2011, 02:08
Rather than Virgin leasing 4 A330 from Lan Chile to use for the next 4months with their new ad campaign for Xmas break , they could lease the 5 aircraft Qantas had grounded as a wet lease .Keep the profits within Australia :):)

blubak
14th Oct 2011, 02:40
Heard on the midday news that the 'right of entry' case has been dropped by the assoc & that the company have agreed to meeting/talks.Not sure if it is happening today but what a reversal/backdown by the company.
Let's hope that they are fair dinkum this time & that some progress can be made,it all falls down to constructive dialogue which means effort at the negotiating table rather than media propaganda & vast sums of money being wasted on newspaper ads.
Anyway,even if the government step in & make pia illegal,if you have had a beer just before the phone rings,you will just have to decline the o/t offer politely!

ampclamp
14th Oct 2011, 02:52
Has anyone seriously considered running for the senate at a fed level?

We have many small interest groups in the upper houses in some states.

I think with the level of public debate and reporting (appalling) it is about time to make the pollies take notice by stealing a seat at the table.

We have numerous smart operators here that would present well with vast experience both here and overseas that could make a difference to our chosen industry.

We wont be taken seriously until we get a real seat at the table. The Australian Aviation party or similar fighting to maintain highly skilled jobs, training, standards & maintenance in a strategic industry is in the national interest. The public are so ignorant of the way the industry runs and are easily duped by spin and a biased press working in tandem with vested interests.

Sunfish
14th Oct 2011, 04:33
Ampclamp:

Has anyone seriously considered running for the senate at a fed level?

Now that my friend is a good suggestion.

You could set your platform to appeal; to union members or folk who identify with Unions, or would like to be unionised.

Your support base starts with the Electrical Trades Union, the CFMEU and perhaps the ALAEA if the ALP does the dirty. This would split the ALP vote and ensure that the ALP was never going to get a Senate majority without Union support

You could run candidates in each state and it would drive Labor nuts. To be eligible to stand as a party candidate you have to be a working person and a Union member, specifically, you cannot be a former labour party apparatchik like most of them are. Union official would also be OK.

The platform would be to oppose anything that hurts working Australians and unions. You can be protectionist because by 2014, the world will be retreating once more into protectionism, although they will pretend they aren't. You can also talk re-industrialisation - bringing work back from China, because that will be all the rage by then as well.

You can sit on the cross benches, deal with the greens etc. to provide a counterweight to the big business interest that have Labor and the Liberals by the balls.

Make your platform "Real Labor" or "New Labor" or "Union Party".

Theme: "For working Australians"

prairiegirl
14th Oct 2011, 05:31
Bandwidth Limit Exceeded

The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.

server has been down for a couple hours. thanks!

Jethro Gibbs
14th Oct 2011, 05:32
ALAEA on news action called off for a month :mad:

JT9D
14th Oct 2011, 05:47
Sunfish that is a brilliant idea . Both major parties are for them self. They don't give a rats a!!!. if the work is outsourced or exec get a fat pay packet.. Non of them said boo.
in the parliament when Aj and Co got a fat pay rise.. As long as they have their nose in the trough. that’s what it counts. Remember only the independents have supported us. Labor govt has been a big let down. It is time for the working Aust to be represented by some one who cares for Aust workers. If we loose this battle it will be the end of decent Aust jobs. Every thing will be outsourced and no decent aviation jobs will be left in this place. AJ and Co will be gone in 5 years taking their fat payment to screw another Co We the workers will have to pick up the crap they would leave us. Hope the stars are on our side this time.

airsupport
14th Oct 2011, 06:08
Guess Steve is a little busy, apparently all industrial action by the ALAEA called off for the rest of this month, hopefully means Qantas are finally talking. :ok:

CaptCloudbuster
14th Oct 2011, 06:19
My guess is QF is still not talking. Looks like Steve tactically is removing any impetus for the Govt to intervene therefore keeping the blowtorch firmly on the QF CEO and Board leading up to the AGM...

griffin one
14th Oct 2011, 06:49
FEDSEC
As stated i am 100% behind our union and the fedsec, i have taken stock and had a readjustment.Maybe a weak moment and media spin.
I understand the the reasons why and as usual on pprune anyone that posts any opinion other than what is the majority gets shot down.
keep fighting and ill keep supporting and paying my dues.

ALAEA Fed Sec
14th Oct 2011, 09:08
From this Sat all stoppages have been cancelled. O/T limitations and work to rule remain in place.

cheers

Jethro Gibbs
14th Oct 2011, 09:24
Why how about some info.

pa28capt
14th Oct 2011, 09:24
Good work SP.

Your strategy is brilliant. Now its time for the institutional shareholders to take some action!!

Red Baron
14th Oct 2011, 09:30
Can't wait to see the shareholders 'explode' at the AGM!!!

Lets see if AJ can explain to the Australian people why he hasn't paid a single dividend in three years when he's quite willing to waste money on a ridiculous industrial campaigns with not only one Union but three!!!

Maintain the rage!!! :E

Clipped
14th Oct 2011, 09:31
Clever move Stevie, who has upset Fergie who is being canoodled by Dicko.

Roger that.
14th Oct 2011, 09:48
Come on Steve, you gota give us more than that...What's happened?

Jethro Gibbs
14th Oct 2011, 09:54
Come on Steve, you gota give us more than that...What's happened?

Yeah was all gun ho on 3AW this morning now stopages cancelled Cheers !:confused:

ALAEA Fed Sec
14th Oct 2011, 10:01
It's not a game of show poker.

CaptCloudbuster
14th Oct 2011, 10:04
Looks like the strategy is working..

Check out this article:

QANTAS Shareholders concerned over Joyces payrise (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-14/qantas-court-stop-work/3570808)

We wouldn't want to spoil the party at the AGM now would we by overcooking things?

Overtime bans are doing their job nicely.

Well done Steve on your decision to cool things down.

sheppey
14th Oct 2011, 11:15
Far from me to do the Mods job. But isn't it about time all this QF industrial angst was moved to Jetblast forum where interested parties can thump tables to their heart's content?:ugh:

Worrals in the wilds
14th Oct 2011, 11:58
The DG&P Reporting Points charter is at the top of the page: Airline and RPT issues in Australia, enZed and the Pacific. IMHO Qantas IR issues fit that category, fairly and squarely. Many Qantas and non-Qantas aviation workers are interested in the issue and how it all pans out.

If you aren't (and it's a free country), surely you can avoid reading the threads concerned? Their titles are all self explanatory, particularly this one.

Disengagement
14th Oct 2011, 12:05
Nice move ,takes the blame of strikes away from Qantas also is their a new spokesman for Qantas ???? Wheres Oliva ??? Taking 5 perhaps !!!!

Mstr Caution
14th Oct 2011, 12:19
Great Move,

The threat of stop work meetings still hangs over AJ's shoulders, say from the 28th Oct forward. Or any time earlier if the situation changes.

Nothing like demonstrating to the company, government, shareholders & the travelling public what "may" happen. If the dispute was to escalate again at some time in the future.

Joyce has shown his cards as to what will happen if the dispute "was to" escalate. That being, the company has no capacity to deal with the back log of engineering work. Additionally a softening of forward bookings & on time performance reducing by 10%.

The greatest asset ALAEA has in the un-predictability of the FED SEC.

MC

Nassensteins Monster
14th Oct 2011, 12:43
Don't lose faith
Looks like the strategy is working..

Check out this article:

QANTAS Shareholders concerned over Joyces payrise (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-14/qantas-court-stop-work/3570808)

We wouldn't want to spoil the party at the AGM now would we by overcooking things?

Overtime bans are doing their job nicely.

Well done Steve on your decision to cool things down.


Sorry, Page not Found

The page you are looking for, "http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-14/qantas-court-stop-work/3570808/" cannot be found. It might have been removed, had its name changed, or be temporarily unavailable.


Bummer.

Sunfish
14th Oct 2011, 17:07
Link works fine for me...

Brilliant strategy SP:

AJ: "Perhaps you engineers will have a job in Six months time, perhaps you won't".

SP: "Perhaps your aircraft will be flying in Six months time, perhaps they won't".


Keep going SP! The one thing you can rely on is that Narcissists will crumble suddenly if confronted forcefully enough. Do NOT give in. They regard any attempt at negotiating based on an appeal to empathy and fellow feeling as a sign of weakness and they will pounce on it.

They care not for the traveling public, still less for the shareholders, and nothing whatsoever for their employees. They will abandon the lot of you in a heartbeat no matter what they say today or tomorrow because they have no souls.

P.S: I would hate to work for O. Wirth. Her awesome effectiveness at "managing up" - working the Government and the media, coupled with her studied lack of deportment when "managing down" - talking to the general public on camera, tells me all I need to know about her and confirms my earlier comments in other places about the type of person who self selects as Qantas management....

As a result of those observations, my opinion is that Qantas won't survive in any recognizable form in Five years time unless the Board and senior management is cleaned out, they are going to drive it into the ground in pursuit of self aggrandizement. You need a Rob Fyffe or a Richard Branson to turn this thing around and they don't grow on trees, nor will any "caring sharing" type of junior manager be nurtured, let alone progress, within the airline.

The decision making will just slowly get worse and the behavior towards their employees more vicious. Customers? Oh them....

I watched a guy do this to a famous company when I was young (Mc Phersons Limited). Don Dunstan()RIP) did the same to the then Victorian Tourism Commission, I played a very minor part in finalising the confidential consultants report that led to his sudden resignation.

Sadly, even if such a report was produced today, there is no one to give it to who could, or would, take action.

P.P.S. I have just been reminded that this is not a new problem:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes off thorns, or figs off thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [Matthew 7:15-20]

airsupport
14th Oct 2011, 20:59
I saw this Guy on one of the TV news services last night, cannot remember his name now, an ex Qantas person, and he was saying that the best thing was Qantas and maybe the ONLY way to save Qantas long term was for Qantas to once again be Government owned.

He made a lot of sense I thought, especially about how most of the Airlines Qantas is competing with Internationally are Government owned, just wondering what others, particularly Qantas Employees think?

As he said the Government may not want to anyway as they seem more interested in selling everything off, but it would be the best and probably ONLY way to keep Qantas Australian. :ok:

V-Jet
14th Oct 2011, 21:48
Steve, another word of support from me.

I think the little man has used you to prove how nasty you are by forcing him to ground a/c - shame so few journo's reported your good words which pointed the finger straight at the utterly incompetent management team.

The thing is, no person with any appreciation for what Qantas is can give in.

IF Dixon/Joyce win, there IS no airline left.

For the sake of someone who may be interested in the truth, and not what QF says through its vast marketing arm, the story is this: Qantas cannot be sold by act of parliament. There are people closely related to the airline who want to buy it out, just like they watched happen with the APA bid. Their puppets are using Qantas money to set up little offshoots that are not Qantas so they can be sold at will. It is vastly expensive and an incredible gamble. Doesn't matter, it isn't their money. Shareprice falls, mates buyout the company, mates flog off all the bits they can and are left with a shell Qantas with massive debt that will not be worth working for. Company ruined but big fat bonuses for the management team for good jobs well done. This is NOT about staff wages or pay rises.

Frankly I would rather terminate Qantas on a 'high' than watch it crumble, having the life sucked out of it by parasitic vermin who are profiteering by deliberately destroying it.

There are plenty of jobs in the mining sector if absolutely necessary. Mining companies who so far seem to have CEO's who actually want the best for the companies they work for - not CEO's who profit by setting up deals to destroy the place by selling out the staff to their 'mates'.

80 years of iconic history followed by 10 of criminal behaviour and wonton theft and destruction.

Witnessing Dixon/Joyce achieve 'death by a thousand cuts' is like watching a beloved pet still alive on the side of the road after being run over by a car, bloodied and mangled, staring up at you with big brown eyes saying 'please help me - how did this happen?' and knowing the only humane thing to do is get the vet and the lethabarb and quickly bury it. That way any money left in the carcass is not taken off to the local pet food factory and cashed in for yet more bonus money.

ampclamp
14th Oct 2011, 23:52
My idea to have senate candidates was not just a union magnet (but it would help) but a serious attempt at getting a seat at the table in matters pertaining to aviation.

Organised labour was not my intended target although it would attract those in our industry and normal conservative type labor voters who cannot vote green or liberal.

It would also serve to educate a public that is largely ignorant of the industry beyond cheap seats. Safety and the integrity of the industry would be high on the list.

Right now we are just suckers waiting for the next hit without a real voice & no respect.The way that twit Ferguson chimed in sickens me.

"UnAustralian" WTF is that? Fed sec, perhaps unwisely, told the truth and was lambasted. It is not always as it appears so gave benefit of doubt to him.

Qantas tell more porkies than you poke a stick at and the press lap it up without question. It $hits me to tears.

Greens dont have the clout, Labor will sell us down the drain and Libs just dont give a %$#@.

UnAustralian to me is a board and CEO creaming it up while they plan on offshoring one of Australia's great companies and sacking another 1000 staff. Unaustralian is a Labor man selling out to his rich mates interests. You hear that Ferguson ? You Un-labor Un-Australian sellout.

If somehow we did get a candidate up we could have a say in regulatory reform, CASA reform and funding & wages and conditions for all who fly here. Many others, but you get the drift.

I would also push for Australian based carriers (and they'd need very strict qualifying conditions) generous tax breaks for onshore maintenance, aircraft depreciation and training. Aviation at this end of the world is a strategic industry that must get more support. The Qantas sales act may get a look too.:E If we can throw millions at foreign car builders and Aussie based steel makers (that have serious foreign ownership) it is good enough to splash some cash at a strategic industry. that is aviation. I'm sick of being pushed around.

ALAEA Fed Sec
15th Oct 2011, 00:27
I've been issuing the warnings about delayed Qantas flights for weeks. Don't think I had a slip of the tounge. It has just become an issue when those who should be supporting us have done otherwise.

Shed Dog Tosser
15th Oct 2011, 00:58
Hi Steve,

I'm pretty sure everyone here is happy with your work.

It is very important that you take the time to "un-plug", relax and spend some time with your loved ones.

You are no good to the cause if you are not firing on all cylinders.

It's Saturday, get off pprune and do something you enjoy, (if your wife will let you........ :})

Ngineer
15th Oct 2011, 01:34
Qantas tell more porkies than you poke a stick at and the press lap it up without question. It $hits me to tears.


Their plan is simple but effective. Paint a rosey picture to the media and public about how secure your jobs are, how happy you should be. Then torment you behind closed doors about loss of contracts, jeopardising your future, etc etc. Keep pouring more fuel on the fire until some-one steps in to put it out. Then game over.....

We must play this game cool.

Short_Circuit
15th Oct 2011, 03:03
Ms Gillard & Co, please keep your nose out of our Protected Industrial Action, legally sanctioned by FWA (being escelated by Qantas refusing to negotiate)
Go an stuff up someone else's life.... ops .. you already have, 20 million Australians.


Massive debt & waste (100 million bucks on interest payments every day)
Home Insulation fiasco
B.E.R. ripoffs
Solar Rebates
Not stopping the boats (Increasing them)
N.B.N
Fuelwatch
Grocery Choice ....

need I go on? Don't put Qantas on the list .:=

amos2
15th Oct 2011, 08:09
As we have all discovered in recent years, due to freedom of information laws, there are many people who have gone straight from High School to : Local Council, State Politics, Federal Politics, the ACTU, unions within the ACTU, civil rights groups, tree hugging groups, greenie groups, biosphere groups and sundry other "gravy train" occupations where they bleed the tax payers dry, enjoy an over inflated salary, massive PUBLIC superannuation benefits and usually are married or partners to similar types with different names!?

Is that rorting the system, or is that rorting the system.

Has anyone checked out Olivia?

If not, do so.

I bet you a useless ticket on a Qantas flight that she has never had, what we would all call, a proper job since leaving high school!

And I bet she's also married to another government bludger rorting the system!

By another name!

Gas Bags
15th Oct 2011, 09:05
Amplamp you have just nailed it....

Amos.....finally something constructive....

airsupport
15th Oct 2011, 09:17
Olivia has over a decade of experience in tourism and public affairs working for the former Australian Tourism Commission, the former Minister for Tourism, Joe Hockey MP and for the industry lobby group Tourism Council Australia. She joined the Tourism Transport Forum last year after three years in the UK leading the Corporate Affairs team at Business in the Community, the philanthropic venture comprising almost every FTSE 100 corporation in the UK, with the Prince of Wales as president. At TTF, Olivia is responsible for Public Relations, research, government relations and strategic policy areas including climate change, skills and labour. :ok:

bandit2
15th Oct 2011, 09:25
Saw Olivia tonight, certainly looks flustered. Some of her pretend frustration was entertaining though. My 4 year old can do better `stage shows` than what I saw from Olivia. Maybe we should start a "We love Olivia Thread"

600ft-lb
15th Oct 2011, 12:12
I can just imagine a conversation one day in the future.....

Son "So mum what do you do for work"

Mum "Well son, I get the truth, spin it around, and turn it out to be something completely different to reality. Been doing so since I left high school"

Something to be proud of.

600ft-lb
15th Oct 2011, 12:35
Qantas in dire warning over engineers industrial action | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/qantas-in-dire-warning-over-strikes/story-fn7x8me2-1226167508614)

The airline bosses will decide whether to withdraw one or more of its Boeing 747s from its long-haul flights and possibly more domestic aircraft in the next few days.

That's quite an amazing coincidence with this FACT from BITRE
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4105/quickgroundthoseplanes.jpg

Now will this FACT be challenged in the media ? Or is it just cyclical NORMAL reduction in flying like Qantas does year on year.

600ft-lb
15th Oct 2011, 12:52
Australian Domestic Airline Activity - time series (http://www.bitre.gov.au/info.aspx?ResourceId=225&NodeId=101)
Look I'll back up my statements with facts and background information instead of parroting a PR manipulator.

All taken from the above, total departures of Australian domestics airlines for OCT/NOV/DEC for the corresponding years

YEAR MONTH DEPARTURES
2005 October 25280
2005 November 24303
2005 December 25052

2006 October 26210
2006 November 25525
2006 December 25728

2007 October 26795
2007 November 26466
2007 December 27477

2008 October 30829
2008 November 29580
2008 December 29864

2009 October 30087
2009 November 28939
2009 December 29359

2010 October 32584
2010 November 31723
2010 December 33289



Now this is such an amazing coincidence that Qantas just happens to remove 100 flights a week. Considering Qantas has a 65% market share, the proportion of dropped flights seems to coincide with the Qantas segment share of the 65% total market share in previous years.

Now did I just shoot a bullet through the bullshit balloon that Qantas started flying the other day ?

I think I did.

airsupport
15th Oct 2011, 20:45
Finally at last, the coverage in our main press here today, while quoting Olivia as usual, at least is now publishing comments from both sides, not just Olivia's rubbish. :ok:

(QUOTE).

QANTAS says it has cancelled 400 domestic flights over the next month following the grounding of five aircraft.

While the airline blames the disruptions on strikes by engineers resulting in a backlog of maintenance work, the engineers' union says it's a shortage of spare parts that has held up operations.

Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth told reporters in Sydney on Saturday that ongoing industrial action by the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) "is slowing down our business and it's creating a backlog of maintenance".

Ms Wirth said the ALAEA's cancellation of strike action, announced after a four-hour stoppage on Friday, was like "putting a bandaid on the shark bite".

"There is industrial action ongoing, there are overtime bans, they are the things that really hurt us - it is damaging our business," she said.

"The real damage has already been done, it's ongoing and it's in place until December."

ALAEA spokesman Peter Somerville said the airline was shifting the blame following Friday's cancellation of any further strike action until after Qantas's annual general meeting on October 28.

"The reason those aircraft are grounded is lack of spare parts ... it's not the industrial action," Mr Somerville told AAP on Saturday.

"They are waiting on spare parts and they are blaming the union."

Mr Somerville said the 400 cancelled flights amount to only three per cent of the total number of domestic and international flights the airline operates every month.

"Is Qantas is seriously saying that they can't run an airline with 97 per cent of their fights operating?" he said.

Ms Wirth said she could not put a monetary figure on the cost of the industrial action so far, but said it had already resulted in the loss of 60,000 man-hours.

The groundings would result in 15,000 less seats on domestic flights every week over the next month, she said.

Qantas has not ruled out grounding further aircraft in the coming months.

"Something has to give ... this is going to damage our airline and we are going to have to make some very difficult decisions going forward," Ms Wirth said.

(ENDQUOTE).

YES Ms. Wirth, you ARE going to have to make some VERY difficult decisions, you could start by telling the truth, maybe have honest talks with the Unions, maybe purchase the spares needed to rectify your Aircraft, you could even look at keeping all Qantas jobs and work IN Australia, and drop this ridiculous LAMEless tarmac idea. :ok:

pab768
16th Oct 2011, 00:13
It's funny how Qantas are grounding A/C due this dispute - and blaming us, yet they have been purchasing 738's at a rate of 1 per month this year!

Maybe their bean counters have stuffed up AGAIN????

Jethro Gibbs
16th Oct 2011, 02:54
Heard AJ on the radio this morning have a whine :{about not having enough staff / manhours what a TOOL this man is.

aveng
16th Oct 2011, 03:03
Ms Wirth said she could not put a monetary figure on the cost of the industrial action so far, but said it had already resulted in the loss of 60,000 man-hours.

Wow so therefore by Ms OW's estimation:

Eng = $170,000.00 p.a. / 52weeks x 38 hours = $86.03 per hour

$86.03 x 60,000 manhours = $5.1mill:D

600ft-lb
16th Oct 2011, 03:24
Remember that big backlog of lost manhours.

Remember the number of engineers they want out by April 2011 ?

A breakdown of the redundancies was explained with the following impact on Engineering. Qantas advised us that the changes take effect from April 2012 and may not all necessarily be voluntary.

20-30 in Base Maintenance Sydney due to the retirement of 4 x 747-400 aircraft.

128 LAMEs across the country due to the commencement of maintenance on demand.

40 transfers in Sydney to Base maintenance due to maintenance on demand.

UQB709
16th Oct 2011, 03:24
YEAR MONTH DEPARTURES
2005 October 25280
2005 November 24303
2005 December 25052

2006 October 26210
2006 November 25525
2006 December 25728

2007 October 26795
2007 November 26466
2007 December 27477

2008 October 30829
2008 November 29580
2008 December 29864

2009 October 30087
2009 November 28939
2009 December 29359

2010 October 32584
2010 November 31723
2010 December 33289



Now this is such an amazing coincidence that Qantas just happens to remove 100 flights a week. Considering Qantas has a 65% market share, the proportion of dropped flights seems to coincide with the Qantas segment share of the 65% total market share in previous years.

Now did I just shoot a bullet through the bullshit balloon that Qantas started flying the other day ?

I think I did.

Interesting analysis, and you may be on to something, but be careful with those damn statistics... For example, in comparing November to October and December, have you taken into account November having only 30 days, whilst October and December have 31? If the company is going to stand accused of twisting the facts, you have to be careful not to inadvertently also do it... ;)

airsupport
16th Oct 2011, 04:47
If Qantas are seriously considering removing 168 highly qualified, experienced and dedicated LAMEs from the Line Australia wide, they will be even more delayed and less reliable than during any dispute, and I for one will no longer fly with them if I can avoid them. :mad::mad::mad:

600ft-lb
16th Oct 2011, 05:03
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1892/martinferguson1.jpghttp://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4573/martinferguson2.jpghttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4076/martinferguson3.jpghttp://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4733/martinferguson4.jpghttp://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5769/martinferguson5.jpg

prairiegirl
16th Oct 2011, 05:26
somebody get on this for heaven's sakes -

qf 1
16th Oct 2011, 06:16
ferderal member in ticket for protection,mmm the plot thickens :cool:

ohallen
16th Oct 2011, 07:18
Good one 600, this shows the connections. Mr Ferguson should be conflicted out of any further involvement in the matter.

Perhaps this could be dealt with behind closed doors rather than a public stoush unless absolutely necessary.

Jethro Gibbs
16th Oct 2011, 08:08
Its all here http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/pmi/declarations.htm (mhtml:{3349F1DD-9B5D-42B7-A494-C1B961358736}mid://00000052/!x-usc:http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/pmi/declarations.htm) Note That Members are required to notify any alterations to those interests to the Registrar within 28 days of the alteration occurring. Alterations to Members' statements are tabled at the end of the Autumn, Winter and Spring sessions of Parliament.
OHALLEN Asks that Perhaps this could be dealt with behind closed doors well that's crap the information is there for all to see and should be widely out there with links etc on the ALAEA web site otherwise this lot just continue on there merry way.:ok:

TIMA9X
16th Oct 2011, 08:17
Perhaps this could be dealt with behind closed doors rather than a public stoush unless absolutely necessary. No, MF thinks he is untouchable... blinded by the hospitality that goes with his job. Don't give this guy one inch.... the tide is turning against what people believe now at a grass roots level.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-912HGKuB5pw/TpqT8AG_fwI/AAAAAAAAACs/vfLDyeZi5zI/s512/300_save-our-qantas-large.jpg

Their little game is up....

ohallen
16th Oct 2011, 08:20
Will defer to your greater wisdom.

My point was that if you take him out of the play quietly, you resist the urge to fight everyone in the room even though that is the example that is being set for you by AJ.

Not all battles have to be public especially given they have far greater resources at hand.

Jethro Gibbs
16th Oct 2011, 08:27
MF and his like are all on a good earner they only reason to accept all these free gifts upgardes tickets is all down to greed and thinking no one will kick up about it well times are a changeing people are fed up with it.
Look up your local member or one of the more well known they are all in it for what they can get.
Also interesting to see Bill Shorten has also been a guest of Qantas at the football how nice.:ok:

TIMA9X
16th Oct 2011, 08:40
ohallen, your point is perfectly valid, and a good one indeed, please accept my apology if I sounded := harsh... not my intention at all. I believe we have too many players in this mess already, MF is past the use by date.

If AJ was a good manager, Qantas would not be in this mess we see today, and should not call on his government mates to help him out. Frankly MF is as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike. he always has been in my view..

He has been a terrible minister in this portfolio, possibly he is only interested in making sure he and possibly his son gets to NZ and back for the rugby:E.

amos2
16th Oct 2011, 10:25
So, are Mar'n and Olivier married, or partners, by any chance?!

Big M
16th Oct 2011, 10:32
To add to 600ft-lb post -check out this which was forwarded to me today - not sure which business/company it's from though. You can guess just like I had to.




http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy231/DixonErase/SuckUp_page1_image1.jpg

Ngineer
16th Oct 2011, 12:55
Qantas advised us that the changes take effect from April 2012 and may not all necessarily be voluntary.


They will have to put that on hold. By April next year the backlog will be too large.

somebody get on this for heaven's sakes -

If the libs make something of it then it's all over for labor.

JETTRONIC
16th Oct 2011, 14:19
lets see if the hit the trip wire.....:}

pa28capt
16th Oct 2011, 15:33
QF2 B744 OJS engine failure out of BKK return to BKK

qf 1
16th Oct 2011, 19:02
only thing is I don't think the Libs would want to broadcast their freebies either, so nothing may come of it

Sunfish
16th Oct 2011, 21:08
But haven't we always known that Qantas gets its influence by licking politicians backsides?

How about we start a movement to split the Federal Governments travel accounts equally between VA and QF?

Qantas employs "Customer Journey Managers" I found one on this link:

sebastian zagarella - Australia | LinkedIn (http://au.linkedin.com/pub/sebastian-zagarella/12/8b3/851)

and here:


There is an outside person called 'customer journey manager' who decides on the day who they are going to upgrade due to Yclass being full. They can see when you were last upgraded and will pick someone else due for an upgrade if you've had a couple in the recently! These are decided well in advance of you even checking in. Mostly on 3 class services.

Other flights such as the QF21 to Narita, upgrades 'anyone' even no FF status, when they have to - usually done at last minute - often checkin staff are asked to look for 'suitables'. Usually happens when there are large groups of Japanese students down the back. If this is the case, you will not get upgraded if you are wearing jeans, thongs or just don't look the part!


Operational Upgrades - Page 2 (http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/qantas-frequent-flyer-program/operational-upgrades-11788-2.html)

Sunfish
16th Oct 2011, 21:25
Tony Abbot: - aug 2011 - business class upgrade to London for wife and abbot.

Albanese - Dec 2010 - Ipad from Qantas.
- june 2011 Upgrade by Qantas on Singapore trip.

Peter Garret - Qantas Ipad.

I could go on, I guess Livy has a complete list.

Qantas simply purchases its influence.

airsupport
16th Oct 2011, 21:33
Again today it is a major story in the press here, at least again it is a little more balanced than it used to be. :ok:

(QUOTE)

BRISBANE flyers will be among the hardest hit from this week's national Qantas flight cancellations.

The ongoing union industrial action has canned 53 services in and out of the city in the next five days with more cancellations looming due to safety concerns.

Qantas has warned aircraft cannot be safely maintained as engineers have been imposing work bans and go-slows.

A Qantas spokesman said the airline had now lost 60,000 man hours in routine aircraft maintenance since the stoppages began in July, creating a huge backlog of work.

In response, subsidiary Jetstar will service four of its Brisbane-based aircraft offshore and New Caledonian airline Air Calin has cancelled its contract with Qantas for maintenance.

"Both sought guarantees that work would be done on time and the industrial action wouldn't impact their planes being released into service," said the spokesman. "Because of the overtime bans and a go-slow which are still in place, we weren't in a position to provide those guarantees."

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce told Sky News yesterday most of the airline's heavy maintenance was carried out in Brisbane.

"We're the only airline that does its heavy maintenance here onshore," Mr Joyce said.

"This industrial action is forcing us to actually move that work offshore."

The cancellations are expected to cost the 12 workers at the Brisbane facility as much as $155 a week or the equivalent of more than $8000 a year.

But the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers' Association has branded the contract cancellations, and the grounding of five aircraft a "media stunt".

Federal secretary Steve Purvinas said the union had documents proving the airline had always planned to retire those aircraft at this time.

"Qantas is deliberately cancelling services that don't need to be cancelled," he said.

He said the engineers had provided Air Calin with a written guarantee its aircraft would be serviced on time, and claimed the Jetstar move to a "Philippines maintenance facility" was planned some time ago.

"We're trying to take some of the heat out of negotiations by suspending strike action until after October 28 (the annual meeting) while Qantas continue to bait and inflame the anger of our members," said Mr Purvinas.

Qantas is contacting passengers about flight cancellations.

(ENDQUOTE)

It seems obvious to me that AJ and company are determined to ruin Qantas as we Aussies know it and move everything off shore. :mad:

How else can you explain what is reported above about Air Calin, Qantas have told Air Calin that they cannot guarantee their maintenance will be done okay at QF, so Air Calin have cancelled the contract, DESPITE written assurances from the ALAEA that the work WILL be done okay. :confused:

Who is trying to ruin Qantas, NOT the ALAEA and other Unions, incredibly it is AJ and Qantas themselves. :mad:

Jetsbest
16th Oct 2011, 22:40
Sunfish, I'm no QF apologist but it's logical that every airline would have similar 'journey manager' protocols in place with the aims of variously:
- looking after regular customers,
- giving them a taste of higher class so they might actually buy it in future,
- avoiding unnecessarily offloading 'oversold' economy passengers, and
- massaging capacity.

Still, the concept as it pertains to our pollies is telling in the way it apparently skews allegiances! :*

airsupport
16th Oct 2011, 23:09
Thing is while they may suck up to Politicians and others they do NOT look after their loyal Customers very well. :(

One of my Brothers-in-law is a frequent flyer member on the highest level, he flies weekly at least, usually more often domestically and also frequently Overseas.

He has had an odd upgrade a few times but nothing else.

He is currently on a personal visit to Europe with one of his Sons, paying full economy fares with Qantas.

Just had a phone call from him, can NOT tell you exactly what he said about Qantas or I will be banned from here. :mad:

They are returning home next weekend on a flight that transits Hong Kong, they decided it would be nice to maybe have a night or two in Hong Kong, so he enquired from Qantas, knowing there would be a small fee which he was happy to pay.

Qantas wanted $800 EACH, not for accomodation or anything, just to Qantas for their inconvenience. :mad:

Needless to say, yet another loyal Qantas frequent flyer of many decades who will NEVER fly Qantas again, no wonder they are losing money and customers, it is NOT the Unions fault. :(

T-Vasis
17th Oct 2011, 01:38
Qantas wanted $800 EACH, not for accomodation or anything, just to Qantas for their inconvenience.

You mean he has had to pay for the fare change difference as stipulated in the fare rules presented to him at time of booking?

Short_Circuit
17th Oct 2011, 01:43
Prime Minister Julia Gillard says she can't yet intervene in a Qantas industrial dispute that has prompted flight cancellations across the country. SOURCE 9 news PM to hold off in Qantas dispute (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8361107/pm-to-hold-off-in-qantas-dispute)

airsupport
17th Oct 2011, 03:20
You mean he has had to pay for the fare change difference as stipulated in the fare rules presented to him at time of booking?

As I said before, he already paid full economy fare to the flights to Europe and return, not using points, and he was happy to pay a reasonable price just for simply getting the same flight out of HK a day or two later, but $800 each pax, for nothing other than a couple of minutes of staff and computer time, NO way. :mad:

They would have been on the same flight just a day or two later, NOT changing the route or even flight number, and there were still seats available on the later flight, just pure greed by Qantas, he said he would have paid $100 each, maybe even $200, but $800 each. :mad:

Qantas have lost a very valuable and long time frequent flyer over their greed, any wonder they are suffering greatly Internationally. :(

Slippery_Pete
17th Oct 2011, 03:39
"This industrial action is forcing us to actually move that work offshore."

So let me get this right, AJ.

1. Unions representing some of the 35,000 employees of Qantas try to negotiate agreements with job security and to prevent cheap offshoring of labour
2. You announce on Aug 24th you wish to destory Qantas and make QantasAsia to try and fund your and the board's massive salaries
3. The unions representing some 35,000 employees take industrial action to try and fiercely protect everything that Qantas represents to Australians - and prevent offshoring
4. You state in the media you are forced to move work offshore because of said industrial action????

Give me a f***** break.

Any one else sick of the word "brand"? Or more accurately, "damagin' de brund"?

flyingfox
17th Oct 2011, 04:07
I don't know if your union has a press liason person, but if not, then they should. Press releases should go out in response to Qantas spin. I get sick of hearing the Qantas management utterings being reported as a complete summary of events. Journalists don't do research into company propoganda and it is published 'as is'. All the reports of Qantas being forced to ground aircraft cancel flights and inconvenience passengers is sheeted home to industrial action without question. The notion that engineers aren't negotiating with Qantas due to their natural intransigence is 'made fact' by reports that engineers will 'return to the negotiations table'. No mention that it may have been Qantas intrasigence and that QF are the ones returning. The thought that QF management might be manipulating the facts to gain public and political sympathy doesn't arise in the press without some assistance.

Redstone
17th Oct 2011, 04:42
What's the feeling among LAMEs about raising membership subs, even if temporarily to engage a media/press liaison officer even on a contract basis for the duration of the current "negotiations", even to access their contacts and get the truth out there?

Just an idea.

framer
17th Oct 2011, 05:10
I reckon that'd be the best money you'l spend in a while.

the rim
17th Oct 2011, 05:25
am sure there is enough money in the bank to deal with this already....the rim

TIMA9X
17th Oct 2011, 05:31
Press releases should go out in response to Qantas spin.Good point, if we are to win this war, which I believe we can, it is very important to counter the Q spin within an hour of it going to press... I believe OW makes huge mistakes with her choice of words which can be easily shot down, sadly over the past few weeks she gets away with it unchecked too many times...

Put it this way, if you asked her what the term "dugong" meant in Qantas slang she would probably head down to the Sydney Aquarium looking for clues.

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2009/11/25/1225803/641113-dugong.jpg

.:rolleyes:

airsupport
17th Oct 2011, 05:53
As yet another example of the rubbish that Olivia puts out, and sadly the main press just publish without question, check out this gem. :ugh:

It is a story about the Qantas 747 that returned to Bangkok last night, reasonable enough.

But what on Earth has the [email protected] after ''all passengers were being accommodated on other services'' got to do with it, more uncontested Olivia drivel. :mad:


(QUOTE)

Qantas jet forced to land after passengers hear engine explode

by: Nathan Klein From: The Daily Telegraph October 17, 2011

A QANTAS flight en route to Sydney was forced to turn around just ten minutes after taking off from Bangkok after passengers heard an explosion and saw "white sparks'' shooting from one of the engines.

The Boeing 747 turned back ten minutes into the Bangkok-Sydney QF2 flight about 9.30pm last night after a loud bang sounded from one of the engines.

The pilot manually shut down the faulty engine as a safety precaution and decided to turn the plane, carrying 356 passengers, back to Thailand - despite being able to fly safely with three operational engines.

Passengers on board said the plane started vibrating after they heard the explosion.

"There were some white sparks shooting out of the engine and then they informed us of what was going on...that the engine had been shut down and we were returning to Bangkok,'' a passenger known only as David told Macquarie Radio.

No emergency landing was required and the plane landed safely back at Bangkok airport at 10.47pm.

All passengers were being accommodated on other services, a Qantas spokesman said.

It comes as an estimated 60,000 Qantas passengers have been affected by a series of rolling strikes by engineers and ground crews.

The airline last week cancelled 400 domestic flights over the next month, blaming the disruptions on engineers' strikes.

The flight cancellations are due to Qantas grounding five aircraft as a result of a backlog of maintenance caused by industrial action by the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association.

"The coordinated attacks on Qantas and our passengers from the pilots' union, the licensed engineers' union and the Transport Workers' Union are continuing to impact the business and our passengers,'' Qantas Group Executive Olivia Wirth said.

"The biggest impact on Qantas and our passengers comes from the overtime bans and 'go slow' on work, which have caused the backlog of maintenance.''

From today, two Boeing 737 aircraft will be parked at Avalon. A further two 737s will go on a weekly rotation through a hangar at Avalon over the next month. One 767 will be parked in Brisbane.

ENDQUOTE)

TIMA9X
17th Oct 2011, 06:47
to impact the business and our passengers

and once more in case you missed it...

"The biggest impact on Qantas and our passengers comes from the overtime bans

im·pact

   [n. im-pakt; v. im-pakt] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
noun 1. the striking of one thing against another; forceful contact; collision: The impact of the colliding cars broke the windshield.



smashing stuff OW

ohallen
17th Oct 2011, 07:31
I hope that those responsible for this mess are reading up on the criminal law because they may well need a detailed knowledge of it in the event of any further events (as opposed to spin) if they were to end badly.

There is a well established pattern being set in stone here and any ambulance chasing lawyer wont have to look too hard.

If ever there was a case for banning short term incentives, it surely applied to an airline business given the actions that are the sole responsibility of the Rat in highlighting how NOT to run this business.

They continue to gamble with peoples lives and have the absolute audacity to state "there was no safety risk".

FFS, what do they need to say that a safety risk does exist.Sure the risk may have been minimised by the actions of the crew BUT exploding engines and flames in an aircraft mid air are not normal and for them to argue there is no risk is arrogance and delusional in the extreme.

When are the mainstream press going to stop listening to their crap or atleast question it??

Someone needs to do something before it is too late.

NewPiper
18th Oct 2011, 03:23
Ohallen,

Something will be done. It wont be too long now before the first of many compulsory REDUNDANCIES start to take effect. Your members are falling into this bear trap. By contrast, the Pilots are not game (yet) or perhaps they are smarter. More aircraft grounded will inevitably mean staff will start to lose their jobs. I think the airline actually wants to downsize the Q operations. This will give them good reason to transfer more flying to Jetstar and sack menacing staff whilst blaming it all on your members and their unions. The public already believe its the fault of your members.

You guys are crazy. Its as simple as that!

NP

prairiegirl
18th Oct 2011, 03:52
hook, line and sinker - do something boys!

we want to support you but i'm not seeing a story that the public understands other than the one about you guys ruining the business for management.

you gotta step up your game - all ya'll.

Jetro6UL
18th Oct 2011, 03:59
Something will be done. It wont be too long now before the first of many compulsory REDUNDANCIES start to take effect. Your members are falling into this bear trap......

....You guys are crazy. Its as simple as that!

There are plenty of old bold engineers at Qantas. Many who would have retired by now are hanging on out of spite.

Two way street, Piper.

NewPiper
18th Oct 2011, 04:27
"There are plenty of old bold engineers at Qantas. Many who would have retired by now are hanging on out of spite."

In other words, they don't give a stuff about the younger generation of employees who follow them or indeed the shareholders who have funded this business that YOU WORK FOR and that has fed your hand for several decades.

Its nothing short of vandalism but its all going to end in tears for you. Shareholders are enjoying watching you guys gets screwed, deservedly so, and they support the CEO in whatever it takes!

NP

UPPERLOBE
18th Oct 2011, 04:29
NP we all love to laugh at a troll, so please keep it up. :D

Nassensteins Monster
18th Oct 2011, 05:38
Qantas shares sink on flight cancellations

Shares in Qantas Airways Ltd have slipped after the airline announced it will ground two additional aircraft as ongoing industrial action continues to halt its flight operations.

At 1321 AEDT, Qantas shares fell 5.19 per cent to $1.46, against a 1.95 per cent drop in the benchmark index.

The grounding will result in the cancellation of 80 domestic flights this month and the additional removal of 20,000 seats, Qantas said in a statement.

That takes the number of aircraft taken out of service by Qantas to seven, and the number of flights cancelled as a result to about 500.

Qantas chief executive officer Alan Joyce said the airline was lacking manpower to continue necessary maintenance of its fleet.

“The industrial action has caused a shortfall of more than 60,000 man hours of maintenance and this is increasing on a daily basis, forcing us to ground aircraft, " Mr Joyce said.

Due to the dispute with Australian Licenced Engineers Association (ALAEA), Qantas has been forced to cancel 500 flights and ground seven aircraft over the past two weeks.

A ban on overtime by the Australian Licensed Engineers Association has forced the grounding of the aircraft, Mr Joyce said.

"The ongoing action from the licensed aircraft maintenance engineers union means we do not have the manpower to fulfil all of the necessary maintenance on our fleet of aircraft," he said.

"If this overtime ban continues, we will be grounding even more aircraft."

Mr Joyce said the bans were not affecting safety but were causing "ongoing and unplanned disruption".

"This is impacting our passengers holiday and business travel plans and it is impacting on the tourism industry," he said.

He denied claims by the union that aircraft were already going to be grounded due to a lack of spare parts.

"These aircraft are flying this week and from Monday they won't be," he said.

"When we clear the backlog of maintenance then the aircraft will be put back into service - it's as simple as that," he said.

ALAEA spokesman Steve Purvinas said Qantas had planned months ago to ground the planes.

"Maybe he should have removed the internal Qantas paperwork that said that they were grounded for disposal ... they announced in April that these aircraft were going to be sold," Mr Purvinas told AAP on Tuesday.

"Alan Joyce is full of lies and the sooner he starts being honest with the employees, the public and the shareholders, the quicker Qantas will get back on track."


Nice one SP.

MEA332
18th Oct 2011, 05:40
New piper and Prairigirl must have just stepped out of a Managers meeting.... Is this the plan of action, go onto Pprune and try bring down the engineers with more B-S.

Let me tell the two of you that your jobs are not too far behind us... I repeat, Behind us... thats the same at the centrelink line if you do not join the majority of the staff in stopping the rape of a great airline.


Get real, we all need Qantas as much as Qantas needs us! And if people think Qantas can survive on Rice and recycled water, good luck I say. Australian standards are one of the highest in the world, if you want to put a "Made in China" label on it, so be it. But remember that the reject shop and the $2 shop get all their products from..... CHINA!!!

Sunfish
18th Oct 2011, 05:47
Share price shows that investors understand what is being done, and by who.

The boyz in Sydney still want to buy the wreck and Joyce is delivering it to them. It's the same boyz that were behind the APA bid.

Jetro6UL
18th Oct 2011, 06:08
In other words, they don't give a stuff about the younger generation of employees who follow them or indeed the shareholders who have funded this business that YOU WORK FOR and that has fed your hand for several decades.

Its nothing short of vandalism but its all going to end in tears for you. Shareholders are enjoying watching you guys gets screwed, deservedly so, and they support the CEO in whatever it takes!

Not gonna end in tears for me, Tiger.....I've never laid hands on a Qantas jet.

Airline shareholders are morons. They deserve what they get. Anyone who invests in the airline industry has granite in the grey matter.

another superlame
18th Oct 2011, 06:13
This is starting to look like a train smash, albeit a very long train with a lot of momentum that is taking long time to come to a stop.

I have faith in the ALAEA but I do hope that their trump card is all might and power.

This latest round of groundings is just another load of crap, but the public isn't able to hear the real story behind it all.:ugh:

slim
18th Oct 2011, 06:17
Just saw OW on CH10 news. Slipped up and said "we will continue with the retirement of these four aircraft". Picked up by a reporter on whether it was retirement or grounding due maintenance she stutteringly changed it to 'grounding'. Very nervous body language after the slip up from engineering honcho standing to the side. The pressure is getting to them and the lies are unravelling.

Ngineer
18th Oct 2011, 06:17
RE: Overtime bans,

Didn't timber deck release an email before PIA started stating that any overtime requests by a DMM had to be approved at his level first? They made overtime a dirty word, not us.

another superlame
18th Oct 2011, 06:35
Before the PIA how much OT was in use at other ports. In Sydney it has been almost non existent for over 6 months.
So to ground aircraft due to the OT must be a smokescreen.

Unless Avalon and Bris HM were working a lot of OT, then OT bans shouldn't really have had much of an impact.

Howabout
18th Oct 2011, 06:40
Hi Sunny, I have no affiliation with QANTAS, but entirely agree your comments regarding 'the boyz'. From my perspective this all smells.

I also remember what I regarded as a good post of yours sometime back that was related to psychopathic behaviour in organisations with dysfunctional management. When I look at the current state of affairs in relation to this stand-off, I have to personally question the way this has all been handled by management, including the mouthpieces. It seems to me that some of the stuff coming out is deliberately inflammatory. Just my take, but I cannot come to any other conclusion based on what I have read.

Unfortunately, Joe Public seems to be buying the spin at the moment and that's regrettable. Joe can't distinguish between jets that are past their use-by-date and jets that need to be put on the ground for maintenance.

Keep injecting your views. I, for one, appreciate your insightful observations.

ohallen
18th Oct 2011, 06:42
NewPiper,
Your members are falling into this bear trap.

Not my members, I am just one hyped up ex QFF who is very tired of the lies and deceptions AND the fact that no one is challenging the Rat spin and amazingly delusional statements like "there was no safety risk".

This person should know and should have conceded that broken engines and flames mid air are NOT normal and do represent a risk to all on board.

Perhaps given the prevalence of these events they are now considered as normal by Rat Executive.This is the only plausible explanation other than someone is not telling the truth.

I cannot and will not stand by and allow these things to happen without comment, even if I am totally ignored by all but trolls.

Roger that.
18th Oct 2011, 06:54
What I'd like to know is: If AJ just will not move on job security, that must mean there must be more coming......So what is it? What is his big picture, his plan, his vision for QF 3 years from now?

prairiegirl
18th Oct 2011, 07:04
MEA - lighten up Frances - i'm no more QF management than you are darlin':=. Obviously, you misread my post - and my previous posts. silly.

adsyj
18th Oct 2011, 08:48
Fair dinkum if they retrench me and keep Livvy, I will need a lifetime of counselling and therapy:ugh:

Jethro Gibbs
18th Oct 2011, 08:49
Here it is at the 9 second point :ok:
Primary Colors - YouTube

sani-com
18th Oct 2011, 08:55
Poor old Livvy, looking a bit flustered there. Just saw it on the CH10 Sydney news website.

Nassensteins Monster
18th Oct 2011, 09:20
What I'd like to know is: If AJ just will not move on job security, that must mean there must be more coming......So what is it? What is his big picture, his plan, his vision for QF 3 years from now?

The current tactics are clear: incite the unions to action sufficient to harm the airline and trigger a Federal Govt intervention under FWA. Lie, cheat, shmooze, co-opt and cajole. Whatever it takes.
The future looks like this:

1) Instead of 2 Mech to 1 Avionic LAME, it will shake out somewhere between 4 and 10 B1 to B2, in line with other operators. Sparkies, prepare your CVs. The majority of you are surplus to requirements.

2) "A" licenses to slowly increase. If "A" licenses can perform a large proportion of the current workload of line LAMEs (ie servicing and minor maintenance functions as described in the QEPM) it stands to reason that they'll eventually make up the majority of future LAMEs. Total "B" licenses to be reduced over time by attrition and redundancy. Too bad when the institutional memory inherent in decades of experience walks out the door to be replaced by pimply "A" licenses with two years in the industry and a week or two of task-specific training. They'll be working on super-sophisticated aircraft that almost never break, tell you what's wrong with them when they do and dodge lightning and birds. Now where have I heard that before? Oh that's right: with the introduction of the B767, B747-400, B737-800, A330...

3) B747-400s flogged to the death and never replaced. Qantas International as we know it to slowly shrink to a few major transcontinental trunk routes, simply a few A380s serving the purpose of flying billboards on high profit routes - a fig-leave to the Qantas Sale Act. I suspect the A380s have been a disappointment. They have not provided the paradigm shift in air transport like the B747 did, hence the suspension of the last 6 A380s out to 2019. There is plenty of scope for order cancellations in the contract of sale.

4) "Qantas Group" will be an umbrella term for the numerous franchise airlines: Qantas Domestic, RedQ, the many iterations of Jet*, JetConnect, EFA etc etc "surrounding and feeding" China and feeding foreigners onto Qantas Domestic services.

5) Continued circumventing of the unionised workforce with labour hire companies. Attrition and redundancy of "legacy" unionised pilots, FAs & engineers.

6) When actual Qantas International aircraft are such a small proportion of the entire "Qantas Group" fleet, remaining "legacy" unionised staff will be forced to to either eat the same shit sandwich that non-unionised staff have been eating for years, or move on.

Why the sudden turnaround with the 110 A320 "all-the-eggs-in-the-one-basket" strategy? Why even rush to the A320 and A320neo without careful consideration of what Boeing were going to offer to counter the neo? Why defer first the B787s and now the A380s? We had the chance for B744 fleet renewal with the B777-200LRs (first delivered 2006) and B777-300ERs, and we didn't take it. Have we learned nothing from NOT buying B777s? The airline is craving fleet renewal, both Domestic and International. It is an insult to our mainline passengers to continue to shuttle them around in clapped out old aircraft. We risk repeating the mistakes of the past - Domestic at least - by flying clapped out ex-Jet* A330s as replacements for the clapped out B767s. And we'll STILL be flogging around reconfigured B744s burning 30% more fuel than a B777 in 10 years time.

Alternatively, it is far more fuel-efficient to operate wide-bodies point-to-point: fly direct between Aus and Asian, North and South American and European destinations with B777s/B787s/A350s. Keep the A380s for high density routes. It was after all the original plan.

Seriously, it beggars belief how supposedly intelligent institutional investors haven't been asking the hard questions. Perhaps WE need to start asking the hard questions of our managed share fund managers and super fund managers.

Nassensteins Monster
18th Oct 2011, 09:21
Just saw it myself, QANTAS Spokesmodel Livvy, got caught telling the truth. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Makes a change. :eek:

bandit2
18th Oct 2011, 09:36
Just saw Olivia on channel 10, friggin hilarious. Good lesson in body language there. You know its true now, first Al Milne, now Olivia. Grounding the 380, yeah right! You'd look like a bigger bunch of incompetent fools than you already are, if you do that.

buttmonkey1
18th Oct 2011, 09:58
she does look flustered, lmao.

TEN Video Player: Watch Full Episodes and Exclusive Video Interviews (http://ten.com.au/video-player.htm?movideo_m=136541&movideo_p=44243)

reminds of this other clown...

Bush "Fool Me Once..." - YouTube

ALAEA Fed Sec
18th Oct 2011, 10:31
Can anyone get that channel 10 faux pas posted on here?

bandit2
18th Oct 2011, 10:59
Steve I tried to post the link but I stuffed it up. Just go to channel 10 site, then news section & you can scroll through the national news stories. Don`t forget to get the popcorn.

ALAEA Fed Sec
18th Oct 2011, 11:04
Need downloaded and you tubed if possible so we can facebook it to pass around. I can do but would take several hours to work out. Sure it can be done by a good neddy in 10 minutes. TimA9x maybe?

Shed Dog Tosser
18th Oct 2011, 11:06
6.30 with George Negus | Channel Ten - Watch Full Episodes and Video (http://ten.com.au/630pm-with-george-negus.htm?movideo_m=90343)

Go to national news on the RH side.

Wow, that was amateur hour.

bandit2
18th Oct 2011, 11:07
Try this link. TEN Video Player: Watch Full Episodes and Exclusive Video Interviews (http://ten.com.au/video-player.htm?movideo_m=136541&movideo_p=44243) Double click on the video whilst it is playing & you can post it on Facebook & Twitter. Hope it works.

Long Bay Mauler
18th Oct 2011, 11:23
Stop the Lies Olivia.

Journos should be asking the question, does Qantas normally pay the engineers 4 times the pay when they work overtime?

I would like to see how she answers that one.

Last time I checked, all overtime is paid at double the rate. What industry in Australia pays their employees at 4 times the rate for overtime worked? I doubt any industry does.

Also,the question should be asked, why does Qantas require engineers so desperately to work overtime?

Does Qantas not have enough engineers?

Are the aircraft so unreliable as to require extraordinary amounts of overtime to keep the fleet flying?

Is it reasonable that Qantas pre-industrial action, was asking some engineers to continually work in excess of 24 hours per week in overtime, because management cannot get the numbers of engineers required per aircraft correct?

Does Qantas management think it is reasonable for its engineers to work in excess of 60 hours per week?

This is exactly what Olivia is asking.

RATpin
18th Oct 2011, 11:34
Attack is the best form of defense. The question should be asked of the Media,just how much influence do QF's advertising dollars buy?
Put it back on the parasites.

Disengagement
18th Oct 2011, 11:50
Just sitting back and relaxing on the riverbank and have noticed that the current seems to be picking up , only a matter of time before something or someone floats passed !;)

adsyj
18th Oct 2011, 12:07
Disengagement

That is a seriously funny post:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

POT100
18th Oct 2011, 12:30
Just saw the ch 10 video of OW sprouting..

I sit here, mouth open, in disbelief!!
Is she really the best Qantas has!!..OMG what a bunch of amateurs!

'retiring/grounding aircraft'..ah the Freudian slip!!..(truth always comes out)
Tut Tut Miss W..Your nose is getting longer everytime you open you mouth..
I would suggest you start typing your CV/Resume asap.

Roo
18th Oct 2011, 13:09
Qantas grounds planes - YouTube

0:57 second mark...

gobbledock
18th Oct 2011, 13:23
Well done Olivia, your 'Jana Wendt impersonation' has finally come to an end. That was an absolute atrocity, hopefully Grandpa Allen gave you a right spanking in front of the entire board as you all huddled round to discuss the latest media coverage, next plan of spin doctoring and new ways to discredit your staff.
What a joke, AJ cannot articulate anything, nor can his right hand man (Olivia) articulate anything. I am so glad the shareholders have put so much faith in these people to ensure their investment remains sturdy, my how excited they must be watching there investment sit in the palms of a senior management team willing to place the airline in a position of a possible further 12 months of industrial action?
I have a feeling the executive bullshit'o'meter will reach a new high this week as they scramble to find new, fresh and exciting ways to discredit the lifeblood of the organization - it's workers? Perhaps they will announce that Purvinus is actually Satan? Perhaps they will leak details about how Caterers earn 180k per year for a 20hr week or how Engineers get paid a KPI FOD bonus and receive an additional 40k per year on top of the baseline 170k?

Yes, as frustrating as it is for some to see all the lies and shite thrown around at the Unions, each time one of the execs dirty little lies has a hole punched through it they look more and more like a Labor PM holding on for dear life!
Now where is my popcorn and comfy chair as this is better than a Bryce Courtney novel.

sfde
18th Oct 2011, 14:05
I havent done the sums but how much does $170000 nz work out to be in aussie dollars? They might be using Jit connect for accounting aswell.

Anulus Filler
18th Oct 2011, 15:37
How can a pile of manure end up smelling like roses??

Read and learn.

Union says manager signed off on safety before plane landed | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/union-says-manager-signed-off-on-safety-before-plane-landed/story-fn7x8me2-1226170074228)

TIMA9X
18th Oct 2011, 16:27
Roo, Thanks for the video I missed this gem, In the space of 48 hours the wheels appear to be falling of the Qantas spin machine.

Ix-oS8PN9E4
"They shut the engine down, they safeteed it" "no safety issue" :ugh:

Sunfish
18th Oct 2011, 17:41
Nassensteins Monster:

1) Instead of 2 Mech to 1 Avionic LAME, it will shake out somewhere between 4 and 10 B1 to B2, in line with other operators. Sparkies, prepare your CVs. The majority of you are surplus to requirements.

2) "A" licenses to slowly increase. If "A" licenses can perform a large proportion of the current workload of line LAMEs (ie servicing and minor maintenance functions as described in the QEPM) it stands to reason that they'll eventually make up the majority of future LAMEs. Total "B" licenses to be reduced over time by attrition and redundancy.

Mate, this is where you lose me let alone the Journalists and General public. You need to translate this into plain English, explain the Differences between B1, B2 and the other bananas and tell us why it matters to us that this is happening.

Sunfish
18th Oct 2011, 18:03
If I was AJ, I don't think I would have let the dispute get anywhere near where it has.

The danger for AJ and the rest of the senior management team right now is that they may push their workforce too far.

If that happens, the workforce may get angry and desperate enough to decide to take matters into their own hands and the Union leadership loses control.

By that I mean "work to rule" may become the standard, not the exception, and given the apparent thicket of Qantas work instructions, that may be enough to render the airline permanently unprofitable until the majority of senior management is changed.

If someone could again post the oil level inspection procedure as an example I would be grateful. I'm sure that would take me the best part of Fifteen minutes per engine.

sani-com
18th Oct 2011, 21:54
All this QF spin about a "go-slow" is really p!ssing me off. All we're doing is following every applicable Qantas procedure to the letter, because if we don't, and a manager sees us, we get to go on a little "holiday", just like the engineer who got stood down for placing a witches hat in the wrong position. Every time I log in to check my work emails, there's a new procedure to do this or that, more "read and sign" memos and safety bulletins, as well as more eQ courses telling me such things as how to sit in front of a computer, and being tested on your knowledge of which charity benefits from the corks from wine bottles used on QF flights. It's never ending. :ugh:

Red Baron
19th Oct 2011, 00:56
"If someone could again post the oil level inspection procedure as an example I would be grateful. I'm sure that would take me the best part of Fifteen minutes per engine".


Try asking Peter D (Get On Board), 747 Engine Maintenance Manager in Sydney about oil level inspections, he's an expert!

rmcdonal
19th Oct 2011, 01:15
I'm confused, I thought that the groundings were occurring because the engineers were not doing overtime, but then Olivia said that Qantas refuse to pay overtime? Or am I missing something here? :confused:

Nassensteins Monster
19th Oct 2011, 03:28
Quote:
1) Instead of 2 Mech to 1 Avionic LAME, it will shake out somewhere between 4 and 10 B1 to B2, in line with other operators. Sparkies, prepare your CVs. The majority of you are surplus to requirements.

2) "A" licenses to slowly increase. If "A" licenses can perform a large proportion of the current workload of line LAMEs (ie servicing and minor maintenance functions as described in the QEPM) it stands to reason that they'll eventually make up the majority of future LAMEs. Total "B" licenses to be reduced over time by attrition and redundancy.
Mate, this is where you lose me let alone the Journalists and General public. You need to translate this into plain English, explain the Differences between B1, B2 and the other bananas and tell us why it matters to us that this is happening.

Sunfish, this is a difficult question to answer in a short answer. There is limited scope in this forum for deeper explanations and I seriously think the wider travelling public don't really give a sh!t about the history and intricacies of aircraft maintenance engineer licensing in this country.

The company tells us in the Service Quality presentations that surveys reveal all passengers want is to get where they want, when they want, leave and arrive on time, with a nice in-cabin experience, safely - in that order of priority.

In a nutshell:

Back in the day when senior engineering management actually had an engineering background and gave a sh!t about increasing worker productivity through training and multi-skilling, it was decided to rationalise the multiplicity of trade streams (airframe, engine, electrical, instrument, radio) into Mechanical (consisting of airframe and engine trades) and Avionic (electrical, instrument and radio) and cross-train the disparate but related trade streams, so for example the often-idle "radio morts" were put to more productive use on electrical and instrument defects. Avionics LAMEs operating in Line Maintenance could not certify to release the aircraft for flying after transit maintenance. To overcome this, they were given task-specific mechanical servicing training, and then granted “Transit Authorities”. We had a worlds best practice licensing setup, and like a certain computer company's product "it just worked". No overlap. Clear demarcation of trade responsibilities. Multi-tasking and higher productivity of Avionics LAMEs.

Enter EASA and the increasing systems automation and complication of modern aircraft, with their higher reliance on avionics to control and monitor structural and mechanical systems.

B1 licenses are airframe, engine and electrical. B2 licenses were originally avionics, being instrument and radio, however electrical privileges were sensibly added later. The “B” licensed engineers are licensed to perform, supervise and certify for ALL aircraft systems in their trade. The proposed “A” license LAME requires ONLY 2 YEARS INDUSTRY EXPERIENCE plus some “one-week wonder” task-specific training so he/she can certify for specific servicing and maintenance functions on isolated aircraft systems that they have performed themselves: no supervision privileges.

CASA “Part 66” LAME licensing system seeks to align itself with EASA Part 66:
Category A (Line Maintenance Mechanic): Basic A category License + Task Training (Level depends on Task Complexity) + Company Certification Authorization for specific Tasks ("A category A aircraft maintenance licence permits the holder to issue certificates of release to service following minor scheduled line maintenance and simple defect rectification within the limits of tasks specifically endorsed on the authorisation. The certification privileges shall be restricted to work that the licence holder has personally performed in a Part-145 organisation"),
Category B1 (Mechanical) and/or B2(Avionics) (Line Maintenance Technician): Basic B1/B2 category License + Type Training (i.e. Line and Base Maintenance i.a.w. ATA 104 Level III) + Company Certification Authorization ("A category B1 aircraft maintenance licence shall permit the holder to issue certificates of release to service following maintenance, including aircraft structure, powerplant and mechanical and electrical systems. Replacement of avionic line replaceable units, requiring simple tests to prove their serviceability, shall also be included in the privileges. Category B1 shall automatically include the appropriate A subcategory", "A category B2 aircraft maintenance licence shall permit the holder to issue certificates of release to service following maintenance on avionic and electrical systems").


The introduction of the new licensing system will pose some problems in the Australian context. As with the introduction of any new system, the risk period is at the inception of the new system. Just because you grant a "Mechanical" LAME "Electrical" systems certification privileges when you grant him a “B1” license, it doesn't translate to years and decades of experience on electrical systems, including the hand skills, knowledge and culture to investigate, troubleshoot, repair and test electrical systems in accordance with the aircraft maintenance manual and standard wiring practices manual.

However the company doesn't see it that way. All they see is "B1 = airframe, engine, mechanical and electrical systems" certification privileges. If B1 certification privileges overlap into B2 certification privileges, it can be plausibly*** argued that you need less B2 licenses.

***

plau·si·ble/ˈplôzəbəl/Adjective:


(of an argument or statement) Seeming reasonable or probable.
(of a person) Skilled at producing persuasive arguments, esp. ones intended to deceive.



Mechanical/B1 LAMEs are intelligent people and they'll pick up the systems knowledge eventually, but it will take years - assuming they want to, which many of the older generation of Mechanical LAMEs don't (which Qantas is top-heavy with). They have responsibility for trouble-shooting the electrical system but cannot certify for anything more than replacing a line-replaceable component that only requires a “Built In Test” to determine that the entire system is ok. The B1 LAME has to hand over further troubleshooting of electrical system and electrically controlled mechanical system defects to the B2 (avionics) LAMEs if the line-replaceable component didn’t fix the system. The B1 and B2 engineers must confer on what trouble-shooting and defect rectification has been done. Perhaps work done must be “re-worked”. Time wasted. Inefficient. A typically European convolution of process and needless introduction of inefficient command-style bureaucracy.

The damage caused by the loss of institutional memory as B2 licensed engineers with decades of experience are invited/encouraged to walk out the door through attrition and redundancy will be irreparable. They’ll laugh all the way to the bank and early retirement, Virgin etc. The institutional memory will be lobotomised.

Yes the manufacturers of "Next Generation" aircraft (B737-800, A330, A380) have supposedly designed the aircraft to provide limited self-diagnosis and be easier to maintain. Yes they have provided comprehensive troubleshooting and fault isolation manuals (TSM/FIM). Yes they have improved the reliability of components. Management are of the belief that trained monkeys will be able to maintain Next Gen aircraft, that’s when they’re not fixing themselves and dodging lightning, birds, hail, heavy landings etc. BUT any LAME will tell you that the TSM/FIM often contains errors and sends the unwitting LAME off on a wild goose chase. They are an AID to defect rectification ONLY and are NO REPLACEMENT for line avionics experience.

This is where experience comes in: the A330s for example throw up some faults that avionics LAMEs with 10 years experience on type struggle to rectify, and have only done so on the basis of making a deductive leap based upon either hearing about or experiencing a similar but unrelated defect years prior. Lo and behold, defect rectified. Can the LAME certify for the defect with reference to the Airbus TSM? No. He can certify for it in accordance with the "remove and install" procedure in the aircraft maintenance manual for the defective component. Can the company claim warranty on the defective component because the defect has been certified as having been identified as faulty in accordance with the TSM? No. The LAME has made a value judgement that operationally and financially benefits the company by foregoing warranty income for operational profit. The replaced component’s warranty is void but the system defect is rectified and legally certified and the aircraft is making money again by actually flying.

In Qantas management's belief system however, by not following the TSM and warranty procedure the LAME has operated outside of company procedure, which is a potentially dismissible offense. We’re now "Working to Rule" as per the company belief system and we're accused of a "Go Slow". The gradual reduction in Avionic/B2 LAMEs will mean electrically inexperienced Mechanical/B1 LAMEs will be placed in operational situations where they have no choice but to rely on the TSM or FIM. Wasted man-hours, lost flying time. By the company’s definition, B1 LAMEs will be on a “Go-Slow” for the foreseeable future.

From bitter experience the Boeing FIM is not immune from misdirection. At least it has a qualifying statement in many FIM procedures when confronted with an intermittent defect. It goes something like this: "If the system tests ok then the fault is intermittent and not present at this time. If the fault is intermittent you must use your judgement (my bold) and refer to your company procedures if you wish to rectify the defect."

Judgement comes from experience, which the company is encouraging out the door with its buggery and bastardry campaign and misguided reliance on the introduction of an engineer licensing system inferior to the one we possessed.

The company is spending a fortune on a “fill-the-gaps” training program to address the shortfalls of the new system vs the old system. They have started training selected Mechanical/B1 LAMEs on the 5 Core Avionic and 2 Electrical Basics exams, aka “Avionics Fundamentals”. Sadly the course is based on the CASA syllabus, which is woefully outdated and provides almost no reference to the sophisticated systems and components now in use. This training will take many weeks. Still, it is NO REPLACEMENT for a 4 year avionic apprenticeship where avionics apprentices were taught by experienced instructors in a classroom and workshop environment and by experienced engineers on the job, followed by several years as an unlicensed engineer before finally becoming licensed.


By comparison, many motivated B2 LAMEs have proactively achieved all Mechanical Basics exams required for Group 20 aircraft. These generally younger, motivated individuals could be quickly and easily multi-skilled by providing them with task-specific training and granting them an “A” license. To my knowledge the company has NO PLANS to do so. If they did, they’d increase the productivity of their workforce, they wouldn’t need to employ as many “A” licenses thus keeping head-count down and saving money, they would retain that invaluable institutional memory and virtually eliminate the risks of needless waste and aircraft downtime outlined above.

How does this effect the travelling public?

Qantas prides itself on On-Time Performance and Safety. What do you think will happen to OTP when there are half the number of B2 avionics LAMEs (or even less) and B1 LAMEs have no choice but to rectify some electrical defect with extremely limited experience and with no choice but to have complete faith in a sometimes inaccurate aircraft self-diagnosis system and a deceptive TSM/FIM? “A” licenses running rampant on the tarmac? Inexperienced, under-trained, underpaid, gormless “A” licenses with limited responsibility, Tunnel Vision and a “She’ll be right” “Don’t know, don’t care” attitude. It’s a diffusion and blurring of responsibility. They are an irrefutable decline in the high standards of maintenance in this country. The result? Delay. Compromised safety. Can you imagine the inefficiency of a scenario where an observant pilot spots an electrical fault, consults the “A” license LAME, who determines that he’s not qualified to rectify, who then calls for a B1 LAME, who troubleshoots the fault to the limited extent that his certification allows, then hands over to a B2 LAME? Please! All the while, you the passenger are looking out your window at the unfolding scene of parading engineers. Are you worried yet?

Gas Bags
19th Oct 2011, 03:44
NM that is a very concise and relevant post. I would like to add but sincerely not detract from your post, that I can as a mechanical LAME, go to Aviation Australia in Brisbane, and with a 3 month course become a qualified B1 engineer.

In laymans terms that means instead of the 4 year apprenticeship some people did under the old system to attain their electrical qualification I now gain that in 3 months.

I feel this analogy certainly reinforces your ascertation of experience being discarded.

GB

sfde
19th Oct 2011, 04:01
Mate, this is where you lose me let alone the Journalists and General public. You need to translate this into plain English, explain the Differences between B1, B2 and the other bananas and tell us why it matters to us that this is happening.

Previously (20 yrs ago) there were five aircraft trades. They are Engine, Airframe, Radio, Instrument and Electrical. You did a four year apprenticeship and a bunch of CASA exams and waited for a type couse to become a LAME as 1 of these trades.
Therefore to cover an aircraft for maintenance you essentially needed five LAME,s.

Management came up with an idea to multi skill these lames with like trades to improve productivity. Thereafter a three month course turned an engine lame into an engine/airframe lame and visa versa and an elec lame into a elec/inst lame and visa versa. Therefore enabling half the heads to do the same work. Soon after radio was added to the elec/inst guys to save even more.

This looks all well and good on paper but even now a good ten years down the track most lames will agree that there strong point is their original trade and a lot still struggle with any major issues in their added trades.

Now casa in their infinite wisdom have decided to follow the EASA system and thin the water once again. An eng/airframe lame will become a B1 lae and do a six week course and also cover electrical. They will also pick up the ability to fix all inst and radio systems if the system is tested by an on-board system.

An inst/elec/radio lame will become a B2 lae and will continue covering all that they do at the moment but will be less needed as the B1 lae has most of the same privileges.

Enter the A license. The A license is open to any 18 year old who can pass a six week course. He will be able to certify for Transit checks and component changes deemed appropriate by the company once trained by the company to do so.

So after your 18 yold who still has restrictions on his driving license, comes to work he can change a couple of wheels and a brake on you A380 and then do an Etops check and send you off to LA with out a Lame even looking at the aircraft.

This is why the ALAEA is fighting to retain our jobs and more importantly our job functions . These change are equivelent to letting a high school kid doing biology operate on people because the medical system isn't making enough money. But remember a doctor/biology student only loses one patient at a time.

fatmike
19th Oct 2011, 04:08
I'm confused, I thought that the groundings were occurring because the engineers were not doing overtime, but then Olivia said that Qantas refuse to pay overtime? Or am I missing something here?

The AALEA has volunteered to supply engineers on overtime to cover the stopwork meetings.. This is unacceptable to Qantas as she says.
The groundings are due to the overtime bans which apparently means that there is not enough manpower to all the required maintenance on all the aircraft so by grounding aircraft, supply of labour equals demand for maintenance or so the theory goes.

hewlett
19th Oct 2011, 04:19
From the coalface.There is no substitute for a good "coney" when the s%it hits the fan, in most cases. Carnage ahead,( metaphorically speaking).

mmciau
19th Oct 2011, 04:20
Nassensteins Monster

Ah, the 'watering down' of the 'Craft Trades' is front and foremost with most employers in this day and age.

With over 30 years of experience in the 'Service Sector" trades, I feel this watering down of Standards and loss of company Intellectual Proprietorship will result in a nasty incident.


mike

sfde
19th Oct 2011, 05:14
B2 licenses were originally avionics, being instrument and radio, however electrical privileges were sensibly added later.

NM great response I think however your above statement may end up being a poisoned chalias as when EASA issued the licenses avionics got a restricted B1 giving them some chance of further training in their company in line with the mechanical guys. I have a suspicion this was a Qantas pushed change through CASA to evade this.

Ngineer
19th Oct 2011, 05:38
The damage caused by the loss of institutional memory as B2 licensed engineers with decades of experience are invited/encouraged to walk out the door through attrition and redundancy will be irreparable.

There are alot of people banging the drum that this is a system out to screw the B2 guys. What people fail to highlight is that the B1 fellas will get totally shafted in the advent of type A certifiers. What we have here is a system in place that will basically let an AME certify for an aircraft. No trade, or aircraft for that matter, is safe with this new system of certification (in my honest opinion).

Nassensteins Monster
19th Oct 2011, 05:58
Quote:
The damage caused by the loss of institutional memory as B2 licensed engineers with decades of experience are invited/encouraged to walk out the door through attrition and redundancy will be irreparable.
There are alot of people banging the drum that this is a system out to screw the B2 guys. What people fail to highlight is that the B1 fellas will get totally shafted in the advent of type A certifiers. What we have here is a system in place that will basically let an AME certify for an aircraft. No trade, or aircraft for that matter, is safe with this new system of certification (in my honest opinion).

Excellent point. Sorry I didn't make it clearer myself.

Quote:
The damage caused by the loss of institutional memory as B2 licensed engineers with decades of experience are invited/encouraged to walk out the door through attrition and redundancy will be irreparable.
There are alot of people banging the drum that this is a system out to screw the B2 guys. What people fail to highlight is that the B1 fellas will get totally shafted in the advent of type A certifiers. What we have here is a system in place that will basically let an AME certify for an aircraft. No trade, or aircraft for that matter, is safe with this new system of certification (in my honest opinion).

Excellent point. Sorry I didn't make it clearer myself.

A Licenses will reduce OVERALL B license requirements. Since there are more B1's than B2's, B1's will get smashed too. I stand by the statement that B2's are gonna suffer proportionally worse than B1's though, as a percentage of total B1's vs B2's.

Long Bay Mauler
19th Oct 2011, 06:16
A normal shift of 20 engineers will look something like this:

3 x B1 Engineers(Current Mechanical)

2 x B2 Engineers(Current Avionics)

15 x A Licenced engineers(Mostly made up of engineers pursuing B1 licences)

And this is assuming that the B1/B2 engineers are fully trained on all types that Qantas operate.

The way I see it, as Qantas cannot organise a good time in a brothel, it is unlikely that we will see the above scenario this side of 2020.

Ngineer
19th Oct 2011, 06:35
Wasn't having a go NM, your post was very good and precise. Just adding my 2 bobs worth.

Nassensteins Monster
19th Oct 2011, 07:51
No offense taken Ngineer. Your 2 bobs worth was a welcome addition to the debate.

aveng
19th Oct 2011, 09:32
We had the chance for B744 fleet renewal with the B777-200LRs (first delivered 2006) and B777-300ERs, and we didn't take it. Have we learned nothing from NOT buying B777s? The airline is craving fleet renewal, both Domestic and International. It is an insult to our mainline passengers to continue to shuttle them around in clapped out old aircraft. We risk repeating the mistakes of the past - Domestic at least - by flying clapped out ex-Jet* A330s as replacements for the clapped out B767s. And we'll STILL be flogging around reconfigured B744s burning 30% more fuel than a B777 in 10 years time.

Agree totally with your post re A/C purchases but with respect to 777 over A330 I believe Qantas just needs to jump one way or the other and since we already have A380's and A330 and A320 in the group maybe we should lean towards Airbus. Having too many types will kill off Qantas. The new A330's operating domestically with the Panasonic IFE are for the most part coming and going just nicely. It's really just the A330-300's with Rockwell IFE that are pains. :ok:

airsupport
19th Oct 2011, 20:27
Thank you for the posts about the new Licence system, although I think it is a horrid system and IMHO an unacceptable reduction in safety :mad: , why on earth Australia had to be dragged down to the lowest level infuriates me, I believe it was forced on CASA by Qantas. :mad:

Back in 1963 when I started as an Apprentice it was a 5 year Apprenticeship (not 4 years), and we were groomed by the Company to become LAMEs in one trade, we were paid (very low wages but paid) to attend Technical College one day a week, and another half day a week at the Company Training School, the rest of the time we rotated through all the various departments gaining practical experience. In our 4th year we sat for all the basics after some training at the Company School, then in our 5th year were put on one of the Company run type courses.

After all that we could not of course become an LAME while still an Apprentice and/or under age 21, still further in our Company after finally becoming an LAME with one endorsement the Company paid you as an LAME but would NOT let you certify for another 3 months until you had even more experience.

How times have changed, and for the worse as far as safety. :mad:

Sunfish
19th Oct 2011, 21:12
Nassensteins Monster; thank you for your concise and informative post.

the rim
19th Oct 2011, 21:17
we are have a bit of thread drift.......but my two bobs worth,as I remember about 12 years ago or more a couple of reps who were involed in the regs review were telling all "the sky is falling" but not many would listen,untill it was to late..............all history, now lets get back to the topic.....the rim :(

Propstop
19th Oct 2011, 21:32
Airsupport
I fully agree with you re the training we received from the airlines back in the 60’s. Over the years I have used all the skills taught to us during this apprenticeship, and have taught these skills also to other engineers in the third world at various times.
The system today is simply enough training to tick the boxes, buy the right box of cornflakes, and an instant LAME who, in respect to aircraft maintenance, has enough trouble walking without chewing gum at the same time.
The impression I have with our current licensing system is that it is a sop to QF to enable barely trained people to certify aircraft safe for flight after maintenance. I do wonder though is if they are aware that if that aircraft were to have an accident after their certification they are directly in the firing line for criminal charges to be filed against them. I do wonder how much backing they would get from their employer in such a situation. CASA will pursue them to the end of the earth being the criminals they are, in breach of the criminal provisions in the regulations.
It is sad for me, having been in this industry for nearly 46 years and have seen a lot of the world and worked beside some wonderful and very skilled people, now to see everything being reduced to the lowest common denominator to be able to save a cent or two in the dollar, but forgetting the huge cost when there is a major accident, thereby negating all the cents save previously.
It would be too much to hope that QANTAS may one day be run again by someone who is a true visionary with a dream to enable the airline again to be the standard of excellence all others to be measured against………. Dream on Sunshine!!!!!!!

Red Baron
20th Oct 2011, 00:17
AJ just doesn't know when to quit!

On the day when Qantas are meeting with us this news report gets released:

Qantas strikes 'could cost jobs' (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/national/8362677/qantas-ceo-says-strike-action-risks-jobs)

What was that 'Whistle Blowers' hotline number again? I'm feeling threatened and intimidated by the company yet again!

Maintain the rage :E

airsupport
20th Oct 2011, 02:00
we are have a bit of thread drift.......

Are we, not how I see it. :confused:

I have been led to believe that these EBA negotiations (the topic) are not only about money, but about sending work off shore and having LAMEless tarmacs. :(

Surely the downgrading of our once great LAME Licence, the envy of the World, is part of it, Qantas were the ones that forced CASA to change and downgrade the Licence system, now they are trying to send a lot of the maintenance off shore and not use LAMEs on line at all, except when someone ''thinks'' something may be wrong. :mad:

another superlame
20th Oct 2011, 02:00
First Jetstar take some checks away, now Jitconnect follows suit.
If this is going to plan, then that is some funky plan.

BrissySparkyCoit
20th Oct 2011, 02:24
The company is working to a script. They are up to the part where they need to announce drastic cuts to staff numbers and flights in order to transfer these operations to J*. As per their script, unions are supposed to be staging mass walkouts and disruptions.

Problem is, unions are not following the script.

Hasn't stopped them acting like the sky is falling.

The lens
20th Oct 2011, 02:29
Bringing it all to a head......get another parliamentary (Senate) inquiry (with Sen. NX at the helm) to focus on what was left off in May's Senate inquiry/report into Pilot Training & Airline Safety, i.e. item (j). 'Any other related matters'. Maybe that way we'll get to see into the Qan. group's books in detail.

In the meantime, collateral damage increases.

ACT Crusader
20th Oct 2011, 03:07
The lens, there is a parliamentary inquiry into the Bills that Senator X (and the Greens) introduced earlier this year - Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011

Details about the inquiry below
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011 (http://aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/aircraft_crew_2011/index.htm)

Also, yesterday during Senate Estimates hearings Senator Thistlethwaite (the former Unions NSW Dep Secretary) asked the FW Ombudsman about their AIPA and Cabin Crew investigations

The lens
20th Oct 2011, 03:15
So much to read, so little time....

Thankyou, ACT C

Disengagement
20th Oct 2011, 04:03
Been thinking and come up with a solution :ok:
Qantas has stated on numerous occasions that the ALAEA is on a GO SLOW , well never seen this from the Alaea so Qantas must be linking it with the work to rules action.
So Qantas signs off on that the LAMEs don't have to work to rules and anything goes , so in a way its a GO FAST backed by Qantas .Now this will reduce the backlog of work, as just sign it off.;)
I know this does sound STRANGE but maybe management has already given it a pilot run somewhere already. :=:=:=

:E:E:E

SpannerTwister
20th Oct 2011, 04:58
What's happening Fed Sec ?

All action off for three weeks.

Julia put the hard word on the association ?

ST

sfde
20th Oct 2011, 05:06
Lets wait and see how the media report this one and what spin Qantas will come up with. Oh but the damage is already done comes to mind.
Great work again from the guys at Bexley take the wind out of the attack. Besides I could do with some extra folding stuff coming up to Xmas.

airsupport
20th Oct 2011, 05:10
Hey Steve, what are you doing, trying to give poor old Olivia a migraine. ;)

How will she spin this. :rolleyes:

TIMA9X
20th Oct 2011, 05:22
Qantas union calls off industrial action, for now

"Our pay claim of three per cent is modest and below inflation," Steve Purvinas said.
“Our real focus has always been on job security. As Qantas relocates to Asia, which they have made no bones about, the jobs of Australian licenced engineers will slowly be made redundant.
“We simply want to prevent a situation where all heavy maintenance for the Qantas fleet is done in cheap Asian facilities to lower standards," he said.

Read more: Qantas union calls off industrial action, for now (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-union-calls-off-industrial-action-for-now-20111020-1m9be.html#ixzz1bIRH7KDw)

trying to give poor old Olivia a migraine. Chuckle, Good move SP, OW may now be considering retirement...:E

Disengagement
20th Oct 2011, 05:38
Well done Steve, OT at 4 times rather than double time , Thats a win in my books :ok:

King William III
20th Oct 2011, 05:43
My oh my, how on earth are they going to get all those aeroplanes back in the air…especially given as they've already changed one of the 767's into it's new company's US registration………


Nice one Steve, :ok: this will fluster the hairdo somewhat!! not to mention take the heat off until the senate hearings fire up all burners………..:D

buttmonkey1
20th Oct 2011, 05:46
your move gayboy

Ngineer
20th Oct 2011, 07:25
No compromise on job security fedsec. Stick to your guns, you have the backing of the workforce behind you. :ok:

prairiegirl
20th Oct 2011, 07:32
CHECK!

my faith is restored.