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Nassensteins Monster
10th Nov 2011, 23:05
Qantas chair wants peace with unions: report

Qantas Airways chief executive Alan Joyce received a boost from company chairman Leigh Clifford, who said Mr Joyce is the right person to lead the airliner through difficult industrial relations, according to a report by the Australian Financial Review.

Mr Clifford said that in addition to backing Mr Joyce, he has advised the company's chief executive to prioritise making peace with its workforce.

“I say to Alan, it's all very well to win the war. We've got to think about how we win the war – but also how we win the peace. And right now that's well beyond the shore break,” Mr Clifford said, according to the AFR.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Jethro Gibbs
10th Nov 2011, 23:26
Apparently Bill Shorten not so upset with Qantas as to stop using The QANTAS CHAIRMAN'S LOUNGE seen entering at Melbourne Airport .:D

PIOT Bord
11th Nov 2011, 23:45
It is obvious that Qantas management blind sided us by turning the airline "off" for 2 days with NO notice. (Something olivia was in the media saying could not be done).

Qantas stated repeatedly that they were grounding a/c due to a maintenance backlog as a result of overtime bans which has since turned out to be a yield management ploy because forward booking were collapsing. Removing all industrial action in the week prior to the grounding of the fleet to assist in "clearing" the maintenance backlog didn't stop AJ from implementing his lock-out plan.

Qantas corporate were rejecting any ground made during EBA negotiations for over the 12 month period.

As the Qantas action was extreme, they were the party causing economic damage, and they were failing to "negotiate in good faith", surely we should be challenging the FWA decision? If not for ourselves, for all employees who's management only think of enriching themselves at the expense of the worker and/or the public!

BP2197
12th Nov 2011, 08:06
Can you imagine what FWA would think if Pprune transcripts were presented. Others may view our actions as 'extreme' or extremely stupid. Left hand screwdriver use comes to mind - my neighbour won't ever let me forget that fiasco....

PIOT Bord
12th Nov 2011, 18:06
BP - I think I remember what you are referring to. Was that the statement by olivia that an engine "letting go" (with a known but unactioned defect because QF offshored any ability to rectify it) during takeoff 'was not a safety incident' but an engineer with 20+ years experience using his left hand to work might 'need to be investigated as to whether it is an unsafe practice'?

Ngineer
12th Nov 2011, 21:20
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Nassensteins Monster
13th Nov 2011, 06:40
Check the bottom of every page.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".


Actions speak louder than words. How would you describe grounding an airline for 48 hours on the grounds that your staff may be too distracted or driven to to sabotage on Saturday & Sunday but no risk on Monday, and in the process causing an estimated $250 million dollars damage to the economy and wiping $100 million off be brand, not to mention the tens of millions in compensation to inconvenienced pax?

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 07:00
Nasseinstein,m

How would you describe holding an airline to ransome? Ask SP i suggest

QF94
13th Nov 2011, 07:50
Nasseinstein,m

How would you describe holding an airline to ransome? Ask SP i suggest

Cargo744,

The airline was never held to ransom. Maybe trying to be brought to account.

When the ALAEA had advised of stoppages and then cancelled, these were due to unforseen circumstances like the grounding of Tiger Airlines after the notice for IA was given. This action was then rescinded so as not to inconvenience QANTAS. Another incident in May that the action was called off was due to the mounting technical difficulties of QANTAS planes.

Then there was the cancellation of PIA for a period of three weeks so as to get the seven grounded aircraft back in the air. There was no response from QANTAS other than "too little, too late". The fact that the seven grounded aircraft were pushed against the fence as they were being retired had nothing to do with it did it?

Ms Olivia Wirth turns around and claims you can't just switch an airline off and then switch it back on again without disrupting customers.

AJ certainly managed to do just that, and not only held the airline to ransom, but the government and the entire travelling public of QANTAS and associated businesses, at a cost far greater than paying the 3% being sought and to actually sit down and discuss the prospects of keeping a majority of jobs in Australia.

How to hold an airline to ransom Cargo744? Ask the QANTAS board and the PR machine.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 07:58
QF

The FWA says different. Ask your Union masters what they think.

QF94
13th Nov 2011, 08:02
QF

The FWA says different. Ask your Union masters what they think.

I hadn't realised the FWA passed down a determination. I know they allowed PIA to take place, and all that was done was in accordance with the rule of FWA.

We know what the "union masters" thought and how it was used against them and the workers. It still doesn't amount to the hostage situation taken by the QF board.

Please elaborate Cargo744.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 08:11
QF.

The FWA determined that all industrial action is terminated. Do you not read the news?

QF94
13th Nov 2011, 08:19
Yes, I read the news.

I was under the impression that you had some illuminating news from the FWA since the PIA was terminated, as we are all awaiting with baited breath to see what 20 November has in store for us. Whether there is a 21 day extension or it goes to arbitration and FWA makes their binding decision.

Longbow25
13th Nov 2011, 08:22
A decision which I now understand will be subject to a determination in the Federal Court with witnesses called to give evidence under oath and the probable subpoenaing of relevant documents.

Should be an interesting time ahead given that the Red Rat and the Irishman have shown no inclination to negotiate in good faith to this point.

Win loose or draw the Rat will continue to haemorrhage on a daily basis as staff exact their version of equity out of the mess that AJ created.:=:=:=

33 Disengage
13th Nov 2011, 08:23
Cargo - The FWA says different. Ask your Union masters what they think.The FWA terminated all PIA because of the damage Qantas' action was inflicting on the nation, it's businesses and it's people. The FWA 'determined' that the action taken by the 3 unions was not inflicting significant damage and would not act against the unions had Qantas not used the nuclear option.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 08:27
And your point is? QF management won the day and played you like a fiddle. Julia's legislation backfired big time.

poacher2gamekeeper
13th Nov 2011, 08:30
For the ardent followers of the Messiah.

What others may think is happening. ;)

He's Not The Messiah - YouTube

P2G

bandit2
13th Nov 2011, 08:32
Cargo744,
Time to crawl back under your Boss's desk. You've said what he told you to say. Maybe this week you'll get 2 jellybeans.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 08:42
Grow up Bandit. I work for a much bigger company than QF. The mirror is looking at you.

33 Disengage
13th Nov 2011, 08:50
Cargo - My point is that your original statement was false and misleading but you seem to have forgotten that. Maybe your bosses were attempting to negotiate in good faith for the last 13 months but, like you, are unable to hold a single discussion point for more than 5 mins.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 09:03
Dissengage... Appropriate name. You don't know me and never will. When you do you can comment on my character.

UPPERLOBE
13th Nov 2011, 09:08
Cargo744 you seem to have no trouble commentating on your own character, so we'll leave it to you to run yourself down.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 09:10
Upperlobe

In the words of Pauline "please explain". You Sir are a complete moron.

UPPERLOBE
13th Nov 2011, 09:14
Hahahahaha, the troll bites back.

Millet Fanger
13th Nov 2011, 09:18
It appears to me that you are commenting on Upperlobe's character, yet you don't know Upperlobe. Looks like you have lost that train of thought again.

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 09:18
Upperlobe... Is that you Steve? Left hand again?

Cargo744
13th Nov 2011, 09:22
Millet... Looks like you are commenting on my character without knowing me.

Millet Fanger
13th Nov 2011, 09:46
Are you on 4 times, or 5 times payment for working Sunday nights? Olivia always seemed unsure as to what the o/t payment was.

Nassensteins Monster
13th Nov 2011, 15:22
Pilots holding the company to ransom with red ties and positive PAs?

Engineers holding the company to ransom with:
1. "Work to Rule" - rules the company wrote and expect us to comply with in totality (except when it doesn't suit and then they're happy to look the other way)
2. Overtime bans: are we that short staffed that an overtime ban lasting 8 weeks produces a supposed 60,000 manhour maintenance backlog? If so why is the company going to make 130 LAMEs redundant in April? They can't be too concerned about the maintenance backlog. Or mayhap it doth not exist?

Devastating stuff Cargo. Sure justified the companys response.

bandit2
14th Nov 2011, 02:05
Cargo744,
Time to grow up wouldn`t you say!

aveng
15th Nov 2011, 02:17
Cargo744

You are not employed by QF.

You know nothing about what is REALLY going on.

You have nothing to lose.

All you are interested in, is stirring the pot.

PLEASE crawl back under your rock!:ok:

ACT Crusader
15th Nov 2011, 08:12
Pilots holding the company to ransom with red ties and positive PAs?

Engineers holding the company to ransom with:
1. "Work to Rule" - rules the company wrote and expect us to comply with in totality (except when it doesn't suit and then they're happy to look the other way)
2. Overtime bans: are we that short staffed that an overtime ban lasting 8 weeks produces a supposed 60,000 manhour maintenance backlog? If so why is the company going to make 130 LAMEs redundant in April? They can't be too concerned about the maintenance backlog. Or mayhap it doth not exist?

Devastating stuff Cargo. Sure justified the companys response.

I can understand the frustration of what appears to be an extraordinary step by QF - "over the top", "reckless" "irresponsible" "unwarranted". But from my point of view QF did nothing that was outside the FWA in notifying of a lockout in response to action that had occurred. The legislative test is if PIA had bee taken by employees.

Now trying to win the hearts and minds back is where the real test is for QF. Recovery from a position of lockout in my view is never easy. Who can forget the handful of workers locked out of Boeing for 200+ days. The public humiliation and name and shame they went through.

Nothing short of legislative change and removing that option will take away the possibility of this sort of action.

Given the positions of Government and opposition unless there are changes to the rules around both the ability of both employees and employers to take action then I can't see changes on this stuff.

Tweaks to the bargaining provisions might do something to curtail PIA but again any Government of any persuasion will want to appear to make changes that appear "balanced" based on their respective histories (Libs - "extreme Workchoices"; ALP - "bad old days of strikes")

33 Disengage
15th Nov 2011, 08:37
ACT - I think the jury is still out as to whether Qantas' actions and the resulting FWA decision are legal. Holding a nation to ransom because your pilots are wearing red ties is a bit extreme. These imported CEOs will do anything for a dollar, just ask Sol!

ACT Crusader
15th Nov 2011, 09:08
The Fed Court review will definitely be interesting and how that court views things.

There are definitely question marks around the evidence of the grounding of the fleet as a result of the notifying of the lockout. But the tomes of case law I've subjected myself to :) and the involvement in industrial disputes I would suggest that the decision to lockout would be fairly sound under the current guise of legislation. I don't think that can be disputed based on what actually transpired and how the FWA is worded.

As an old IR tragic, it does make things interesting nonetheless.

neville_nobody
15th Nov 2011, 11:05
I was of the understanding that the issue is that the QF industrial action was not in proportion to the industrial action by the staff.....or is that not an issue?

ACT Crusader
15th Nov 2011, 21:03
I was of the understanding that the issue is that the QF industrial action was not in proportion to the industrial action by the staff.....or is that not an issue?

Legislatively I don't think it's an issue. If a "proportionate" response was required by QF then I would think the unions would have been quick smart in FAir Work Aust arguing that the QF notification of lockout was 'threatened unprotected action" and sought a section 418 order against QF.

But in my view the union lawyers knew this was not an option and didnt pursue it in the Fair Work hearings on 29-31 Oct.

But if you're running a public campaign against QF then the disproportionate response card definitely comes into play to give weight to your argument that QF is being "unreasonable" "lacking good faith" "big bad management".

airsupport
15th Nov 2011, 21:29
QANTAS has hired four full-time social media managers to keep tabs on what people are saying about the airline on Twitter and Facebook.

In what has become a necessity for large customer service-focused companies, the airline has set up a dedicated social media unit to trawl through tweets and status updates around the clock.

I think some of these are here on PPRuNe too. :rolleyes:

QF94
15th Nov 2011, 22:22
Yeah, money well spent to confirm what they already know the workforce and some of their customers think of them.

SpannerTwister
15th Nov 2011, 23:55
QANTAS has hired four full-time social media managers to keep tabs on what people are saying about the airline on PPRuNe and FacePPRuNe.

In what has become a necessity for large customer service-focused companies, the airline has set up a dedicated social media unit to trawl through tweets and status updates around the clock.And therein lies the heart of the companies problems ............

A "normal" company wanting to go this route would of hired "four full-time employees to monitor social media, reporting to the existing Communications structure".

Or even......hired "Three full-time employees and a manager to monitor social media"

But nooo......."Four...managers".

ST

Shark Patrol
16th Nov 2011, 06:03
QANTAS has hired four full-time social media managers to keep tabs on what people are saying about the airline on PPRuNe and FacePPRuNe.

In what has become a necessity for large customer service-focused companies, the airline has set up a dedicated social media unit to trawl through tweets and status updates around the clock.

I think I can pick three of the PPRuNe ones already - Cargo744, Tallest Poppy and ACT Crusader. Will keep looking for the fourth one.

Ngineer
16th Nov 2011, 06:41
The most ironic part of all of this is that if they had developed better working relations with their staff, then all of these expensive counter measures would not be necessary.:ugh:

bandit2
16th Nov 2011, 07:04
So,
If I understand properly, they're paying 4 people full time wages to moniter the social media. Plus millions on that useless Engagement Survey, & guess what? Maybe I'll ground the Airline, hold Australia & the Government to ransom. AJ you're an idiot who has lost touch with reality.

ACT Crusader
16th Nov 2011, 07:26
QANTAS has hired four full-time social media managers to keep tabs on what people are saying about the airline on PPRuNe and FacePPRuNe.

In what has become a necessity for large customer service-focused companies, the airline has set up a dedicated social media unit to trawl through tweets and status updates around the clock.

I think I can pick three of the PPRuNe ones already - Cargo744, Tallest Poppy and ACT Crusader. Will keep looking for the fourth one.

Not sure what you base that on but I'm sorry to disappoint you shark patrol, I'm simply not manager material....

Arnold E
16th Nov 2011, 07:42
I'm simply not manager material....

Yep, noted that.:hmm:

Jethro Gibbs
17th Nov 2011, 04:40
Probably should have had the Nurses union working for us they just told FWA NO !:D

ACT Crusader
17th Nov 2011, 05:53
Probably should have had the Nurses union working for us they just told FWA NO !:D

Keep posted on that one Jethro. Reports coming through that an urgent hearing at FWA tonight as we speak.

HKPAX
17th Nov 2011, 08:14
Just posting this so we actually get a page 129

HKPAX
17th Nov 2011, 08:15
And again








ccc

ampclamp
17th Nov 2011, 08:22
Hey Arnold, sometimes short posts are the best. Made me laugh :ok:

Nepotisim
18th Nov 2011, 10:59
Well there goes the farm...........:ouch:

Don't like the chances of QE ever working on the 787.

John Holland (http://www.johnholland.com.au/Documents.asp?ID=14468&Title=John+Holland+Aviation+Services+Selected+as+Boeing+Gold Care+Service+Provider&nTypeID=2)

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

QF94
18th Nov 2011, 12:28
Well there goes the farm...........http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gif

Don't like the chances of QE ever working on the 787.

John Holland (http://www.johnholland.com.au/Documents.asp?ID=14468&Title=John+Holland+Aviation+Services+Selected+as+Boeing+Gold Care+Service+Provider&nTypeID=2)

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

QE was never in the running to maintain the 787, or at most, terminal servicing.

With JQ getting the first 15 in 2013, and by the time we get ours, the JQ guys will be well versed on servicing the aircraft, that they'll be doing our maintenance on them.

Millet Fanger
18th Nov 2011, 18:29
Agree with most of what you say 94, however, QE was never a chance for line work either.

Now with GoldCare gone, looks like JQ boys and girls will be shafted as well.

I wonder if QE management are starting to see the big picture yet, their jobs are being flushed as well.

ALAEA Fed Sec
18th Nov 2011, 21:51
We have a good bunch of members at JH guys. Ultimately there will be plenty of work for everyone, we just need to make sure we aren't constantly undercutting each other to reduce terms and conditions.

BP2197
18th Nov 2011, 23:51
JHAS will do our work simply because we didn't react appropriately to a changing world. We could keep all of this work as well as most of the heavy but we need to change our work practices. There will always be maintenance in Australia it just won't be the current style of QF lame doing it which is a shame.

This is a little contradictory to the above statement but what are the chances of backpay Fed Sec? Need to buy some Chrissy presents but don't want to spend money I don't have!

C441
19th Nov 2011, 00:17
...... what are the chances of backpay Fed Sec? Need to buy some Chrissy presents but don't want to spend money I don't have!

If it goes to arbitration - and I'll be amazed if it doesn't - you may get your backpay, if any, for Christmas 2012. Arbitration will be a long process.

another superlame
19th Nov 2011, 03:37
Fed Sec the guys at JHAS are good but the management are the same bunch of snakes that run the rest of the industry.

Jethro Gibbs
19th Nov 2011, 04:38
We have a good bunch of members at JH guys. Ultimately there will be plenty of work for everyone, we just need to make sure we aren't constantly undercutting each other to reduce terms and conditions.

How do you think they got the work ? Oh That's right By undercutting they are all doing it companies & labor hire mobs etc etc & Forstaff.

Cargo744
19th Nov 2011, 06:52
Relying on SP to save you is like leaving the porch light on for Harold holt.

bandit2
19th Nov 2011, 10:23
Cargo744, do you only work weekends?

Short_Circuit
19th Nov 2011, 17:59
A typical Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (LAME) working for an airline eg. Qantas, has from age 18 done a 4 year Apprenticeship, learning basic aircraft from nose to tail, rivet to rivet, wire to wire. Has spent those 4 years as an apprentice cycling through every aspect of aircraft maintenance areas, be it Heavy Maintenance hangar, workshops, ramp and college to see all aspects of an aircraft inside out.

During this time he is assigned to a crew of Engineers working shifts of day and nights 24/7 365 days a year. Under the guidance of a typical Leading Hand, a 25 to 40 year veteran LAME and many other 15 to 30 year LAMEs as crew mates, He will spends a further 5 to 8 years learning the basic tooling, test equipment, repair procedures, sitting up to 20 or more exams for light aircraft mechanical & avionic systems.

This is the bare minimum requirement before a person is considered worthy enough by CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) and Qantas to be trained on an aircraft type, eg. Boeing 737, a 3 months full time class room training with aircraft simulator work (full flight simulator that Pilots use) to understand how that type of aircraft responds to controls, adverse conditions, how emergency systems work and how backup systems come into play etc He then comes back to the crew of Engineers and is closely monitored and guided as he starts to use his new skills as a LAME under the guidance of the LAMEs on the crew.

The above is now known as “Outdated Work Practices”

What Qantas and CASA are now about to unleash on the travelling public is this.

We will now have a teenager with no apprenticeship or for that matter no aircraft knowledge, straight from Macca’s flipping burgers, red P plates, spend 2 years skateboarding, smoking dope, staff traveling to Bali & Bangkok and some time on a crew working aircraft. After that 2 years at age 18 he will be trained for 2 weeks how to change tyres, top up oil and be in charge of servicing your aeroplane at the end of its 14 hour flight, before the next 14 hour sector and certify it if safe to fly again. No more will experienced eyes scan over the aeroplane but a teenager who you may not trust to service your car will now have your life in his hands.

This is what Qantas LAMEs are fighting for, these so called outdated work practices, SAFETY for the travelling public and not outrageous pay increases.

SC

tolakuma manki
19th Nov 2011, 18:30
We will now have a teenager with no apprenticeship or for that matter no aircraft knowledge, straight from Macca’s flipping burgers, red P plates, spend 2 years skateboarding, smoking dope, staff travel to Bali & Bangkok and some time on a crew working aircraft. After that 2 years at age 18 he will be trained for 2 weeks how to change tyres, top up oil and be in charge of servicing your aeroplane at the end of its 14 hour flight, before the next 14 hour sector and certify it if safe to fly again. No more will experienced eyes scan over the aeroplane but a teenager who you may not trust to service your car will now have your life in his hands.Is this true? And no DAMP at Q?

Short_Circuit
19th Nov 2011, 21:39
It is called the "A license". Came into effect July 2011.
DAMP will do what exactly to gen Y. Stop them smoking pot?, just like laws that will stop them texting whilst driving or speeding or taking unsafe risks etc.

BP2197
19th Nov 2011, 23:43
Don't worry short circuit, they will be running your retirement home, you're in safe hands!

Cargo744
20th Nov 2011, 06:52
Bandit 2.

I work 7 days FYI. Don't know why you would care:ugh:

another superlame
20th Nov 2011, 08:10
I think you still need to have a cert IV in aeroskills, more skills than burger flipping are required.
QF have just finished training their AMs (non aircraft AMEs) to AME standard. This was due to the fact that a cert IV is the minimum required to perform maintenance now.

The days of the QF bastardised apprenticeship have gone, it was good to see that the system QF put into place bit them in the arse.

Clipped
20th Nov 2011, 08:28
AS

I'm pretty sure Cat A kiddies will only require a Cert II plus two years industry experience plus task specific training, at least 18 years old and their good to go.

'Captain, Return to Service, is signed'. Safe flying.

Cargo744
20th Nov 2011, 09:38
Cat A.

I am sure that you have so much experience that you can speak on belalf of everyone. Please share it!:D:D

Arnold E
20th Nov 2011, 10:37
I work 7 days FYI.

What do you actually do in those 7 days??

33 Disengage
21st Nov 2011, 02:58
That is what this EBA has been about, job security. Not just outsourcing, but diluting the amount of experience / training that will be required by those who sign for maintenance after it has been carried out.

Qantas management want to get rid of LAMEs, and where they have to, replace them with the most least experienced / trained people possible.

I would be concerned but management have a mantra with the word 'safety' in it, so these changes that they are willing to ground an airline for must have nothing to do with money, yeh?

Ngineer
21st Nov 2011, 03:02
What do you actually do in those 7 days??

speak on belalf

Obviously not crossword puzzles.

rh200
21st Nov 2011, 03:23
What are Qantas Engineers Fighting forWelcome to what the rest of the "trade" world has had to put up with, sorry if trade is a dirty word, but you did mention apprenticeship.

Basically all the trades seem to be getting dumbed down into more theoretical and less practical. The time of the 4 year apprenticeship seems to be gone or on the chopping block. Quality craftsmen if you will seem to be a thing of the past :(

The problem with you guys though it potentially has more dire consequences compared to what the rest of us can f$%^ up.

Longbow25
21st Nov 2011, 05:39
Win, loose or draw in FWA Qantas will haemorrhage from these events every day as the staff become even more disengaged, (if that is possible).:mad:

Setting up my chair by the river bank as we speak.

QF94
21st Nov 2011, 06:18
Win, loose or draw in FWA Qantas will haemorrhage from these events every day as the staff become even more disengaged, (if that is possible).http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Setting up my chair by the river bank as we speak.

As disengaged as the staff may be, they won't do anything to do harm to the company or pi$$ of any more customers. The board did a great job on their own.

AJ got what he wanted. Stonewalled the unions, wasted three weeks, and will get FWA to arbitrate. There was no way that these matters were going to be resolved in three weeks, and another three weeks would have resulted in a zero anyway.

What happens from now on with FWA is anybody's guess, unless AJ and his merry band of cronies know what's going on behind the scenes. How long will the FWA take to hand down its decision? How long is a piece of string?

The longer FWA take, the better for the QF board, while they put some other plans into action to further erode QANTAS International and the rest of the mainline company.

Syd eng
21st Nov 2011, 06:39
Just came over the news on the radio that all 3 unions have failed to come to agreement. Will be interesting to see how long it takes now. What happens if we are still in arbitration when they announce redundancies?

Jethro Gibbs
21st Nov 2011, 06:50
This Thread should be renamed Qf LAME EBA Negotiations are Now Over :ugh:

Short_Circuit
21st Nov 2011, 06:58
It aint over yet,

Fed Sec SP has stated on nine news
The dispute between Qantas and the engineers will also now be sorted out through arbitration, the engineers' union's Steve Purvinas says.
"We have made some progress during our negotiations but four or five matters do remain outstanding and we think at this stage it's probably best if we go to arbitration to sort them out," Mr Purvinas told reporters outside Fair Work Australia in Sydney.
"So we won't be seeking a 21-day extension
I believe that any items already agreed to will stay and only outstanding items will be dictated by FWA. Could be a win / win :confused:
FWA meeting with ALAEA due to start 17:00 tonight.

airsupport
21st Nov 2011, 07:18
Fed Sec SP has stated on nine news

Quote:
The dispute between Qantas and the engineers will also now be sorted out through arbitration, the engineers' union's Steve Purvinas says.
"We have made some progress during our negotiations but four or five matters do remain outstanding and we think at this stage it's probably best if we go to arbitration to sort them out," Mr Purvinas told reporters outside Fair Work Australia in Sydney.

"So we won't be seeking a 21-day extension

That is odd, just watching the Channel 9 News as I saw you post, we are an hour delayed due to daylight savings, and not only NO appearance from SP, but they said several times that it was ONLY between the TWU, Pilots and Qantas. :confused:

Has SP done a late deal. :ok:

33 Disengage
21st Nov 2011, 07:31
Saw SP speak on ABC news. If only 4 or 5 things outstanding in a fairly thick EBA agreement, maybe we are 90% in agreement and are happy to let FWA sort out the rest.

The interesting point will be which 4 or 5 things are outstanding!

ACT Crusader
21st Nov 2011, 08:15
Just came over the news on the radio that all 3 unions have failed to come to agreement. Will be interesting to see how long it takes now. What happens if we are still in arbitration when they announce redundancies?

If there has been no Determination by FWA and redundancies are announced/initiated, then QF must abide by the current enterprise agreement and the terms around reduundancy/change management/consultation etc.

Jethro Gibbs
21st Nov 2011, 10:39
Mr Joyce said Qantas would be happy to accept the decision of FWA and he called on the unions to do the same.
Of course because he already knows the outcome the fix is in for Qantas Workers.
Meanwhile the nurse,s in Victoria have given FWA an arse kicking.:ok:

blackbook
21st Nov 2011, 11:08
Qantas booked lockout notices before grounding fleet: couriers

Qantas booked lockout notices before grounding fleet: couriers - Business (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-21/qantas-booked-lockout-notices-before-grounding-fleet-couriers/3685160?section=business)

Millet Fanger
21st Nov 2011, 11:48
If reports aired on the ABC are correct, the ALAEA will have a strengthened case during arbitration that QF has not been negotiating 'in good faith' as required by the FWA act.

"Where there is smoke, there is fire" and the smoke is getting pretty thick. Couriers have testified that they were booked as early as Thursday 28th Oct, well before Joyce had stated in public that he was starting to think about grounding the airline. Interesting enough though, it was about the same time that a letter went to Jetstar to prepare for QF's grounding.

Stay tuned, there is more to be revealed and some investigative journalists have the scent.

ALAEA Fed Sec
21st Nov 2011, 11:54
This Thread should be renamed Qf LAME EBA Negotiations are Now Over



This expert must know more than I do. You wouldn't be an aviation expert by any chance?

Roger that.
21st Nov 2011, 12:24
Come on Steve. Whats happened?

SpannerTwister
21st Nov 2011, 13:06
Will a handful of "Snow White" be enough, or will we need a cartridge of Aeroshell 33 ?

ST

Syd eng
21st Nov 2011, 19:13
Does the move to arbitration mean that the union is now allowed to speak with its members in regards to any of EA issues? or is it still a closed shop with only the company commenting on any issues?

hewlett
21st Nov 2011, 20:19
The fat lady has yet to sing! ( FGNLT. DYEFKT)

33 Disengage
22nd Nov 2011, 03:38
Check your emails, FedSec has posted. Basic info - 90% agreement, 4 - 5 items still to be sorted by FWA if agreement can't be sorted before. Next date in FWA 1st Dec.

Interesting thing will be which 4 - 5 items outstanding; job security, renumeration, quotas, LAMEless Tarmac, redundancy?????

QF94
22nd Nov 2011, 03:47
Interesting thing will be which 4 - 5 items outstanding; job security, renumeration, quotas, LAMEless Tarmac, redundancy?????


Job Security - Not negotiable. Forget job security, unless you have a seat on the board.
Remuneration - Standard 3%. Very surprised if more.
Quotas - Reduced
LAMEless tarmacs - Domestic first, following J*'s example. Unsure about International, as ALL carriers at S.I.T. have LAME's on their aircraft.
See point 3. 1,000 mentioned in August (although mainly cabin crew), more to follow soon after the FWA decisions and rumour has it April 2012. Numbers? Don't know.

SpannerTwister
22nd Nov 2011, 04:41
No forced redundancies ......Not negotiable !!

(Insurance policy to be doubling of all existing redundancy provisions !)

ST

Toolpants
22nd Nov 2011, 07:39
If anyone needs some cheering up, this will get you laughing.
Some of the tweets are Hilarious

Fail! Qantas red-faced after Twittter campaign backfires

Fail! Qantas red-faced after Twitter campaign backfires | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/fail-qantas-red-faced-after-twitter-campaign-backfires/story-e6frfq80-1226202445747)

Toolpants
22nd Nov 2011, 07:47
Quote from #qantasluxury:
" @alexmillier: Alan Joyce now seeking an injunction to ground twittter due to #qantasluxury fiasco. Twittter farts in his general direction. ..."

"#QantasLuxury. Breaking News. Alan Joice has grounded twittter and locked out all twittter staff until the tweets stop."

Toolpants
22nd Nov 2011, 07:54
It didn't take long to hit youtube

qantas-twitter_downfall.wmv - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTCwPlWzZnQ&feature=youtu.be)

airsupport
22nd Nov 2011, 18:15
Very funny, can see certain likeness. ;)

Ngineer
22nd Nov 2011, 19:49
Did anyone else see the bollocking that QF copped on Sunrise this morning regarding it's latest PR disaster?? The sokeswoman commentating hit the nail on the head perfectly. :D

The tide is turning!!!

the rim
23rd Nov 2011, 01:17
you forgot the "yah" :ok:and he will be doing some time in the big house

Oh Me Oh My
23rd Nov 2011, 04:09
The tide has been turning for a long while now, unfortunately the governement and FWA still pander to the corporations despite public opinion

On other matters there is something in the wind, I can just smell it and it smells rotten.......................rotten to the core:mad:

gobbledock
23rd Nov 2011, 04:20
Did anyone else see the bollocking that QF copped on Sunrise this morning regarding it's latest PR disaster?? That would have to be a first !! Perhaps Koche sold all his QF sahres and now is happy to have QF trashed on the program?

The PR machine is an ineffective embarressment. In standard QF fashion of late almost anything they touch turns to shite.
How much is Wirthless paid? How much are the 4 new media Trolls getting paid? More wasted money on incompetent staff, less chance of shareholder dividends !

Dick.Hayes
23rd Nov 2011, 05:35
An Irishman wants a job, but the board won't hire him until he passes a little math test.

Here is your first question, the board said. "Without using numbers, represent the number 9."

"Without numbers?" The Irishman says? "Dat is easy." And proceeds to draw three trees.

"What's this?" they ask.

"Have you ain't got no brain? Tree and tree plus tree makes 9" says the Irishman.

"Fair enough," says the board. "Here's your second question. Use the same rules, but this time the number is 99."

The Irishman stares into space for a while, then picks up the picture that he has just drawn and makes a smudge on each tree... "Ere you go."

The board scratches their heads and says, "How on earth do you get that to represent 99?"

"Each of da trees is dirty now. So, it's dirty tree, and dirty tree, plus dirty tree. Dat makes 99."

The board gets excited as this is the kind of genius they want.
"All right, last question. Same rules again, but represent the number 100."

The Irishman stares into space some more, then he picks up the picture again and makes a little mark at the base of each tree and says, "Ere you go. One hundred."

The board looks at the attempt. "You must be nuts if you think that represents a hundred!"

The Irishman leans forward and points to the marks at the base of each tree and whispers, "A little dog come along and poop by each tree.
So now you got dirty tree and a turd, dirty tree and a turd, and dirty tree and a turd, which makes ONE HUNDRED!"

The Irishman then grounded the airline then asked the public to comment on what they like about the airline on a social network. Priceless.

airsupport
25th Nov 2011, 19:22
Any actual news about what is happening?

Everything has gone very quiet.

Jethro Gibbs
25th Nov 2011, 23:59
New notice on ALAEA web site 25/11 not going to get to vote on any deal so does it really matter anyway.

BP2197
26th Nov 2011, 01:27
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

ALAEA Fed Sec
26th Nov 2011, 07:05
You will get to vote if you come along to a meeting.

airsupport
26th Nov 2011, 07:11
You will get to vote if you come along to a meeting.

Cool, I will try to get to a meeting then. ;)

Seriously, any news you can share? :ok:

ellie1
26th Nov 2011, 08:23
Any plan B after this one failed?

Short_Circuit
26th Nov 2011, 08:53
I, for one, have run out of olive branches. :mad:

600ft-lb
26th Nov 2011, 08:54
How about

Spit the dummy, CEO style and cling onto loose words by a TWU official after the AGM as justification ?

Sounds like a plan.

QF94
26th Nov 2011, 09:41
The big squeeze on small business | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/the-big-squeeze-on-small-business/story-fn6bn88w-1226206962944)

Change the brands and some of the names and you have QANTAS!

"Suppliers claim that's how Coles executives, many recently arrived from the UK, describe Australia, because of their generous remuneration packages."

"While the public service bloats and the number of ministerial advisers in Canberra skyrockets, out in the real world, productivity growth has collapsed and people are hurting."

"Times are tough, and consumers are counting their pennies. Last week at Woolworths' annual general meeting, chairman James Strong (below) described 2011 as "undoubtedly one of the most challenging years the retail sector has seen for some time".

The battle of the big supermarkets for a shrinking consumer dollar is taking its toll. Coles, headed by a new team of gun retailers from the UK, including Australia's highest-paid chief executive Ian "$15 million man" McLeod, is battling Woolworths for supremacy, slashing prices and shrinking shelf space to make way for their own home brands.

Woolworths has followed suit, with plans to double its Home Brand range, meaning suppliers have to compete for shelf space with the very people who own it."

""The consumer is going to ultimately be the big loser in Australia," he said.

Heinz has already closed its tomato processing plant in Girgarre, in the Goulburn Valley, with a loss of 146 jobs, and downsized two other facilities."

ALAEA Fed Sec
26th Nov 2011, 09:47
Any plan B after this one failed?


Must know something I'm unaware of....

buttmonkey1
26th Nov 2011, 13:48
so these coles and woolworths executives will be demanding more money?

the rim
26th Nov 2011, 21:16
jethro....what a boof head,tells airsupport to look at a notice but fails to read it himself,the outcome is what to be expected given the fact of what happened a few weeks ago....not what was expected but it happened and we must live with it ....see you at the meeting Steve,and thanks...the rim

the rim
26th Nov 2011, 21:19
i would expect this is PLAN "B"

Jethro Gibbs
27th Nov 2011, 00:07
rim the notice says.
The proposal is what it is and the meetings will not be used to amend the terms.
In other words vote yes vote no what will it matter FWA will decide in the end.

PIOT Bord
27th Nov 2011, 04:29
My reading of the situation is that we will get a vote. The ALAEA have a proposal from the company which is like "a shit sandwich with mayo" on it, hence Qantas are willing to allow paid meetings at work.

The exec. are willing to let us hear what the proposal is and have a say. The vote will be do we accept said sandwich, or do we roll the dice and take what FWA dishes up.

It is what it is, but for sure the exec have looked out for our, and aviation's, best interests the whole way. The exec should be applauded for their efforts.

SpannerTwister
27th Nov 2011, 09:24
As Piot Bord says.... "It is what it is".

Complaints will ONLY be entertained from ALAEA members who unsuccessfully stood for election at the last executive elections.

If others think they could of done better, let them say why THEY didn't try !!!

ST

And besides, Susan Boyle hasn't sung yet !

Take five
27th Nov 2011, 09:53
If this is the end of the battle, as we know it, the war will continue.

The whole deal is Un-Australian.

They will become the Un-Australian Airline that no one will fly on.

All we want is a fair go.

They do not deserve to prevail, and they will not, in the end.

There are many ways to skin a Cat, or a CEO, or a Director, or a Takeover Merchant.

There will be No Reconciliation, and, definitely, No Engagement, in the foreseeable future.

Suck it up and wait for the next volley.

They can give us more of the same but they will destroy themselves.

Managers Perspective
27th Nov 2011, 12:07
It is what it is......

But loosely translated, I think it means YOU LOSE!

MP

ABAT4t2
27th Nov 2011, 12:38
managers perspective, you are what you are.....

I think it means YOU LOSE!

A tip..... stop thinking, it proves what we all know, you are as stupid as your postings

One Eye Redundant
27th Nov 2011, 16:50
"They can give us more of the same but they will destroy themselves."

Unfortunately for us, these clowns are not the long term employees of Qantas. They come in for a few years and make more money in that time than you and I will make in a lifetime with the company. If they fail, they award themselves a bigger pay rise, and take a massive golden handshake, and move on to the next poor company.

Ultimately, we are the ones being destroyed by their actions.

Jet-A-One
27th Nov 2011, 20:04
Is there any truth to the rumour that arbitration will NOT give us back-pay?

Nassensteins Monster
27th Nov 2011, 21:49
Qantas to shelve new airline: report

Qantas is set to shelve its controversial plan to launch a new premium airline in Asia as Europe's economic turmoil hits the confidence of Qantas management on the project, the Australian Financial Review has reported.
The AFR said it could reveal that after a year of planning a multi-billion dollar investment in the subsidiary airline in both Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, Qantas executives would prefer to halt the captial-intensive project and instead focus on the safer option of an alliance with Malaysia Airlines.
Qantas' plans for its new Asian subsidiary caused union outrage, divided federal politicians and at the height of the union dispute resulted in the grounding of the airline's entire fleet followed by both parties being sent to arbitration at Fair Work Australia.
The unions have argued that the Asia tie-up would see Qantas move a substantial part of its operations overseas, costing local jobs, and called for job security to guaranteed in the industrial agreements.

So all this grief has been for nothing. :mad::mad::mad: :ugh:

SpannerTwister
27th Nov 2011, 21:52
Is there any truth to the rumour that arbitration will NOT give us back-pay?

That's what we've heard too....That FWA will "punish" both sides, this is to be our punishment, if this is true wondering what the companies punishment will be ?

ST

Nassensteins Monster
27th Nov 2011, 21:56
Qantas faces renewed takeover talk: report

Qantas Airways has become the subject of renewed speculation of a fresh takeover effort from a private equity bidder, possibly led by former chief executive Geoff Dixon and advertising executive John Singleton, according to a report by The Australian.
Mr Dixon, Mr Singleton and investment banker Mark Carnegie, under the umbrella of Global Aviation Asset Management, were rumoured to have expressed interest in Qantas three months ago, but reportedly backed-out amid concerns about the rocky global outlook.
However, the possibility of a private equity move for Qantas has remained the subject of speculation, both because of the drop in Qantas’ share price following the grounding of its fleet last month and renewed private equity activity.
The airline has reportedly assembled an internal team to address any corporate activity pointing to interest in the company.


The airliner’s shares, at $1.45 are only slightly above the company’s record low of $1.37 reached on October 5, while the $700 million offer for Spotless Group by Pacific Equity Partners has suggested that there may be private equity appetite for Qantas, even if the Global Aviation Asset Management group does not renew its interest, according to The Australian.



Interesting...

Nassensteins Monster
27th Nov 2011, 21:59
Quote:
Is there any truth to the rumour that arbitration will NOT give us back-pay?
That's what we've heard too....That FWA will "punish" both sides, this is to be our punishment, if this is true wondering what the companies punishment will be ?

ST

I guess all will be revealed at the meetings. But if the pay issue was resolved early on and FWA's arbitration is only on unresolved matters, how can they arbitrate against backpay?

Jethro Gibbs
27th Nov 2011, 23:47
Just been on 3AW Victoria with the Money man that he is hearing Qantas may be subject to a takeover bid .

Jethro Gibbs
27th Nov 2011, 23:49
Is there any truth to the rumour that arbitration will NOT give us back-pay?

Well Qantas would like that can then get rid of people at less cost.:ugh:

upsidefront
28th Nov 2011, 00:43
Managers Perspective said:
It is what it is......

But loosely translated, I think it means YOU LOSE!

MP

I've been to todays meeting.
I hate to admit this, IF this gets up MP is right :sad: :*

33 Disengage
28th Nov 2011, 01:21
It is what it is......

But loosely translated, I think it means YOU LOSE!

MP Qantas management today have costed their ideological decision to fight instead of negotiate with their staff at $250m. That cost doesn't include damage to brand, cost of disengaged staff, or future settlement costs.

Having trashed the airline (a topic the above is only a fraction of) all MP can come up with is "YOU LOSE". For QF management this has been a bit of a game to which they had access to the bank account to spend as they liked. They did but QANTAS WAS THE LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SpannerTwister
28th Nov 2011, 01:21
I've been to todays meeting.
I hate to admit this, IF this gets up MP is right

More information please ?

ST

tgbgtgb
28th Nov 2011, 04:16
Or one analyst trying to stir the market enough to offload his cheaply bought shares for a tidy profit.

Syd eng
28th Nov 2011, 05:09
Any details of the deal allowed to posted here? I am not rostered on for any of the meetings.

mahatmacoat
28th Nov 2011, 05:23
I cant remember it all but was something like

4 year deal full backpay

year 1 3%
year 2 level for all, level 16 comes in
year 3 3%
year 4 level for all, level 17 comes in

plus we all get a 1 point B1/B2 payment

another superlame
28th Nov 2011, 05:53
What is the 1 point B1/B2 payment?
Is it 1 service point if you have B1/B2 or 1 point in lieu of it?

buttmonkey1
28th Nov 2011, 06:48
So all this grief has been for nothing. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif :ugh:

he's coming across as a real drama queen,
did so with his grounding
again with the red q fiasco
then his many public announcements,
not least that he is in some gay relationship :yuk:
the death threats, anzac day p.a.'s
the caring irish love of qantas' rich long history
sheesh, time to these clowns to go.

year 1 3%
year 2 level for all, level 16 comes in
year 3 3%
year 4 level for all, level 17 comes in
plus we all get a 1 point B1/B2 payment

and the industry standard annualised salary?

upsidefront
28th Nov 2011, 07:10
buttmonkey1 and others that feel outrage at this deal, get yourself to a feedback meeting and cast your vote.

If you are not on shift, well how much do you really care?

Qantas WILL allow you on base/ramp to attend the meetings. Not being on shift is no excuse.

If you don't cast a ballot, you have NO say. Be that positive or negative. Be part of the process or s.t.f.u. :=

rmm
28th Nov 2011, 07:11
Any update on redundancies and heavy maint?

Short_Circuit
28th Nov 2011, 07:30
Get to a meeting on or off shift, but do not complain if you do not attend & miss the opportunity to understand where we are and to vote... :{

SpannerTwister
28th Nov 2011, 11:03
Ease up guys .............

Some people might have a very good reason they cannot attend meetings on their days off ...........

Accepting PP is not the best way to disseminate and collect information / feedback, it is, for some, their best option :uhoh:

ST

Silverado
28th Nov 2011, 11:11
Accepting PP is not the best way to disseminate and collect information / feedback, it is, for some, their best option

I don't buy that.

SpannerTwister
28th Nov 2011, 11:15
Fair enough...........

Do you consider it at all possible that some ALAEA members who are rostered off for their meetings may have pre-scheduled commitments on those days that they cannot get out of ?

Looking after their children while their wife works / attending a specialist appointment with their wife that she booked several weeks ago / having a doctors appointment booked a while ago ?

ST

QF94
28th Nov 2011, 11:24
What is the 1 point B1/B2 payment?
Is it 1 service point if you have B1/B2 or 1 point in lieu of it?

Super lame,

You will be paid the equivalent of 1 service point. This equates to about $22 pw for the EASA conversion of your licence. This will be in addition to the 2011 3% back pay, 2012 grade jump, 2013 3% increase and 2014 grade jump.

Silverado
28th Nov 2011, 11:30
I'm sure thats possible, but I don't agree that PP is the best option.

Get the facts by,

1. Get to a meeting
2. Get to a meeting
3. Get to a meeting
4. Talk to a colleague or rep who was at a meeting. Failing that,
5. Pick up the phone and call the ALAEA office.

By all means discuss what you have learnt on PP.

Oh Me Oh My
28th Nov 2011, 18:39
I understand BM1 being frustrated, we were treated like sh!t (like most 35,000 employees) locked out like 10,000 good unionists and told that our leaders (who a majority of work for qantas) had no passion for Qantas and did not want to see it succeed. As I see it they were the only ones that wanted QF to succeed, the bloody leprechaun didn't 120 aircraft ordered for another airline that doesnt help Qantas !
Back to the meetings sat through the meeting which the fed sec spoke mostly and he took us through the process it seems the road has been long and torturous, we fought hard we fought fair but were caught out by a maniac willing to stop at nothing the process of fair bargaining (it didnt stop the [email protected]#$%^ collecting a seven figure sum or 70% payrise for treating us like sh!t). In the end it amounted to arbitration a process that will more than likely hurt both sides. What to do ?
Between the ALAEA and QF a compromise has been struck and been presented at the meetings, its take it or leave and I see most guys are compromised about which way they vote, thats good that means youre thinking ! the result is actually irrelevant in the sense we ourselves must be happy with the decision and we make it so get along to the meetings and vote !
PS Pres I know youre unhappy no one likes being stabbed in the back but try to look like you're not going to tear someones head off and sh!t down their neck it really scares some of us punters thinking we may be on the list lol :eek:
PPS Fed Sec the stories are well and good but I know ten very good men did all their very best for us in this negotiation, celebrate them too. :ok:

The Bungeyed Bandit
28th Nov 2011, 21:30
Have to agree with Silverado. Get to a meeting at all cost. This is how the system now works. All the points were well explained by Fed Sec last night. If poor old AJ has one more item shoved up his arse he's going to be very sore - then again I guess he's use to that.

Silverado
29th Nov 2011, 06:30
This is your last chance to have a say in what direction LAE (QAL) EA 9 might go. Get to a meeting.

You have 2 choices the proposal or FWA arbitration. If you want it to drag on with no hope of back pay and little chance of success, choose the latter.

Either way, the current job security clause is already locked in.

Other items already settled

Dispute resolution
Grievance resolution
Transition to retirement
Absence notification (within 2hrs)
Annual leave payout at employee req (must keep min 4wks)
Long service 8 or 7 day blocks (depends what roster)
Laptop

The elements of the proposal and the matters referred to arbitration differ quite significantly.

the rim
29th Nov 2011, 09:51
stop the bullsh%t there is only one way to go ....IMHO a deal has been struck and we need to give the ex the power to go back and cement that deal....so when you get the voting paper give the "ex" that power,we dont want it to go to FWA ......the rim

ampclamp
29th Nov 2011, 10:07
Rim, I agree. Better the devil you know imho.

I have no doubt the company will play word games with intent , meaning, inference of the clause 11 but we have custom and practice, 10 years of it in fact, pre flting so called new gen aircraft.

The words have not changed. Now I do believe they will try something on with the semantics or somehow wangle it through witjh some kind of business change where they plead 'not in our control'.

They could just shrink the mainline even further to just keep shrinking our numbers, who knows?

They may just honour the words as written and agreed

But.... we know most of the detail good and bad and it is on the table. On the surface it aint too bad. We can imagine things they may or may not do but left to the good commissioners you are rolling the dice on a lot more. That is my reading of it.

blubak
29th Nov 2011, 22:29
the rim & ampclamp,although i have only read on here & heard some comments in the workplace about the proposed deal i definitely agree with your posts,at this time unfortunately we dont have a lot of options & considering the amount of work that has gone into this,it seems prudent to me that we support it & just take the best that we can get out of this mess.

hewlett
30th Nov 2011, 04:15
Will probably find QE had some input into the proposal and will want to tidy up their side of the clusterf#$k that clifford and joyce have created. The fun will start after the agreement is ratified.

Terminalfrost
30th Nov 2011, 04:52
An agreement may sort out your hip pocket blues - but the nasty taste will remain until the Qantas management make genuine amends. The memories of Joyce's ultra destructive tactics will live for a long time.

Once again, in the same manner as under Dixon's reign, Qantas threw away more money - tons more money, in fighting its workers than it would have cost it to negotiate an agreement that would have satisfied its workers.

They burnt $250M in 2008 fighting a $5M claim.

A happy worker is a productive worker. Good thing for Joyce he isn't penalised for introducing inefficiencies into the workplace!

bandit2
30th Nov 2011, 05:54
Maybe Management might need to do a Employee Disengagement Survey. How to disengage your employees.

Terminalfrost
30th Nov 2011, 10:19
Perhaps they could facilitate it through peopledisconnect!

One Eye Redundant
30th Nov 2011, 15:00
I'm looking forward to the next round of customer excellence tree hugging sessions. I'm pretty sure that in the next one we will have to get all of the red balls, paint them orange, and explain to the customer that we can no longer supply red balls as they are too expensive and inefficient, and give them the orange ones at a discounted price.

I can't believe that I am starting to think this way. There could be a position on the Qantas board for me if I keep it up!

bandit2
30th Nov 2011, 20:34
Yes, Its not RED, just another shade of ORANGE.

Clipped
30th Nov 2011, 22:24
An agreement may sort out your hip pocket blues - but the nasty taste will remain until the Qantas management make genuine amends. The memories of Joyce's ultra destructive tactics will live for a long time.

Once again, in the same manner as under Dixon's reign, Qantas threw away more money - tons more money, in fighting its workers than it would have cost it to negotiate an agreement that would have satisfied its workers.

They burnt $250M in 2008 fighting a $5M claim.

A happy worker is a productive worker. Good thing for Joyce he isn't penalised for introducing inefficiencies into the workplace!

So right.

We will be back in the courts with these a##h#les before the ink has dried.

Qantas style of management -fight your workers, fight them to the death, they will pay, they will know who the master is and no expense will be spared. Hey, may even send the ALAEA broke.

We will have had our little win, though.

another superlame
1st Dec 2011, 01:12
Sydney Base has just announced a re-shuffle of all the yes men.
Notably Mr Cawthorne has been moved sideways from his role of matey-matey overseas posting supplier.

I believe this is the beginning of the bald mans desire to change things. He wants to take base back to the dark ages by training up all the Supervisors to 330/380 status. What sort of an investment is that when you train up some of your oldest employees to sit in an office and not be involved in the actual maintenance of the aircraft.
Ridiculous.

the_company_spy
1st Dec 2011, 01:21
He won't need supervisors once maintenix is rolled out.

another superlame
1st Dec 2011, 01:26
He can't be told. He is not willing to listen to anyone. Unless maybe you put it in an email. Apparently when you email him he finds it easier to say no.

I can't wait to find out what other tricks he has up his sleeve. I have heard he is waiting for the EBA to be finalised so he can put through his raft of changes.

Stanton in charge of 380 is going to be an absolute blast(cock up).

the_company_spy
1st Dec 2011, 01:33
Super Lame, any rumor as to what is on that raft?

another superlame
1st Dec 2011, 01:41
No, I don't know. Part of the reason for writing is to see if anyone else knows.

Jet-A-One
1st Dec 2011, 02:12
There will be a significant number of forced transfers from SIT and SDT. It won't just be the easy targets. 330 or 737 licenced guys won't be safe like last time. Base will be taking on a lot more traditionally terminal work (international day-stoppers, domestic over-nighters). Don't expect any type trainig to come with it. They are well aware of how many 737/738 licences are already in Base and the rest will come from the terminals. Domestic will say goodbye to their cruisey nightshifts, their hours will prob end up more like SIT.

Composite crews probably. Not too sure how 380 will fit in.

Just my theories of course. Happy to hear the opinions of others.

Clipped
1st Dec 2011, 03:56
Base will be taking on a lot more traditionally terminal work

Moving staff off aprons to Base.

Sounds like the beginnings of MOD?

another superlame
1st Dec 2011, 04:26
Bringing extra people to base maintenance is no problem as long as they have plenty of work to keep everyone busy.
If they bring in 738 LAMEs bring in the 738s to go with them etc.

Short_Circuit
1st Dec 2011, 04:51
I have a great NEW idea.
How about Base do day stoppers, base do the Arvo shift at SIO, frees up SIO LAMEs to do customer work (in white overalls). We all rotate through SIO & SDT.
Nah, that would never work :rolleyes:

another superlame
1st Dec 2011, 04:54
The SIO customer work thing would never work with a rotation. It would mean twice the number of people need to be trained on customer aircraft,and then when you swing back to base you would lose the tail payment, then those individuals would crack the sh!ts etc etc.
Having said all that I do think SIO still seems manpower top heavy for the amount of turnarounds that are done. But I could be wrong.

listentome
1st Dec 2011, 05:01
Customer work??? You need customers first...

Jethro Gibbs
1st Dec 2011, 06:44
Customer work ! Not that old story always wheeling that one out at Avalon .
How many Customers have they had ?
One Qantas thats it.

bandit2
1st Dec 2011, 10:18
Speaking of customer work. I heard that spiel in Heavy Maintenance Line2 & Line1. Just never gets old.

the rim
1st Dec 2011, 10:18
1 customer work....you blokes are kidding yourselves,we are not going to get um back.....at least not like we used to handle them
2 gee base guys going to sit to handle day stoppers and extra work I agree with short circuit....sounds like something from the 70's...get a few old timmers in whites arriving a/c and the grey army doing the checks,all we need is some guys to do the "doors"....now that brings back some fond memories
3 yes there will be change for ALL not just syd int/dom,but one thing still remains they still need LAME's maybe not as many but they still need us
4 from what the bexley boys have said about rosters we will have change with them too,and once again it will mean change for ALL

buttmonkey1
1st Dec 2011, 11:09
back to the future, what a novel idea,
though it might be more like
'a' licence in white overalls
'b1' dirty grey rags
'b2' dustcoats ???

the rim
3rd Dec 2011, 15:15
looking at this thread it may well be that" something old gets new again".....the SIO/SDT may turn back into a arrive/depart setup....but the guys doing it will be the rampies and the Lame's will be supplied by base,when needed... of course a few Lame's will be needed at SIO as LH big a/c need them...maybe a few old redundant Lame's might come back as "arrive/dept men",in white overalls of course ....now that would be a sight.....the rim

Blocker Vlv
3rd Dec 2011, 22:35
Hey Rim,if there going to bring back the white overall brigade for arr/dept,
will they bring back Rover 5 as well?

hewlett
3rd Dec 2011, 23:22
And the quarantine guys so the "door" checks will need to be done again. Oh, and don't forget the flight satchel with the a/c docs:=!

Ngineer
4th Dec 2011, 10:09
Lame's will be supplied by base,when needed...

A of the guys there have told me it is already a sh$tfight over there due low manpower and licences.

UPPERLOBE
4th Dec 2011, 21:06
Geez, this brings back memories...

"Doors", No one ever questioned why Lewin always had a very heavy satchel in one hand and all the books out of it tucked under the other arm, lol. :}

"Rover 5", I saw Kerop the other day, he's still the same... "Hey boy, I flat you down". :eek:

I could go on with many anecdotes, :E

Don't forget the white caps to go with the white overalls and you'll need "Mike" buses operating between the hangars and the SIT.

Everything old is new again... ;)

hewlett
4th Dec 2011, 22:14
Just make sure the tow pin on the bus is secure.Wouldn't want a trolley full of Snap On tools going into the lake again. Oh yeah, better make sure the bus drivers have a blue card, wouldn't want any of them having his way with any impressionable young engineers.:ooh:

the rim
4th Dec 2011, 22:18
lets get back to the thread before someone drops a name of someone who is still alive........yes i know kerop is alive,well maybe,but does anyone know how the roadshow is going.The real test will be this week when it hits the big house in bne,all the blokes are ok with the boys have put forward.....the rim

ampclamp
4th Dec 2011, 22:32
Good suggestion rim. back on the real topic.

Jet-A-One
5th Dec 2011, 00:13
Can anyone confirm if we still accrue service points during the proposed four year agreement?

ampclamp
5th Dec 2011, 00:34
I think so superlame. However your ability to utilise them will be the problem as always. Unfortunate but at least lames can move up the scale under the proposal put fwd.

Nepotisim
5th Dec 2011, 01:00
Is it too late to add salary sacrifice boats? :eek:

With the new positioning of the Jet Base I think a nice little marina would be in order. :cool:

We could use the boats for travel to and from work and not add to the cars on the roads. Save the company money for fluids disposal after sump drains and piddle drains too.:ok:

THE RIGHT FUTURE. STARTING NOW - YouTube

Syd eng
5th Dec 2011, 01:09
Wonder if all this is something that was known about and why the offer is for a 4 year deal 2015 end, same year the new Jetbase is supposed to be there. Imagine the changes they are going to implement when/if this new Jetbase happens?

The Bungeyed Bandit
5th Dec 2011, 01:47
So painting Hangars 131, 191, 271, total refurbishment of 245, 96 & eng runbays, plans of workshop/office/annex along rear of hangars, relocation of LAME car park and demolition of 171 to facilitate A380 hardstands was a total waste of time and money.

No Syd eng, I think you are giving management too much credit - they have no idea what they're doing. Guess the international arm will be asked to cough up the money for this - Oh that's right, we're not going to invest any money until it starts to show a profit.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Short_Circuit
5th Dec 2011, 01:50
And what about the Hush Hangar & double bay A380 Hangar where 167 is/was .:confused: which stalled EBA progress, they knew all the time it was not going to be built there... and they WERE going to build between the runways regardless of the EBA outcome.

Nepotisim
5th Dec 2011, 05:15
Looks like the hush hangar is next to the large open hangar in the video?

Jethro Gibbs
7th Dec 2011, 08:53
Qantas Heavy Maintenance of B767 and A330 $33p/h plus super Flat Rate Contract/Temp
We place the right candidates in the right jobs — Aviation Labour Group (http://www.aviationlabour.com/)
So this is the future did not take long for this mob to step in. :ugh:

QF94
7th Dec 2011, 11:45
Qantas Heavy Maintenance of B767 and A330 $33p/h plus super Flat Rate Contract/Temp
We place the right candidates in the right jobs — Aviation Labour Group (http://www.aviationlabour.com/)
So this is the future did not take long for this mob to step in. :ugh:

Why do you think QF management are keen to do a deal with the LAME's? Whatever gain we get, will be fairly short-lived once the "future" arrives.

Silverado
7th Dec 2011, 12:24
So to get a temporary job with ALG at QF HM BNE

"Must be able to commit to ongoing work"

:mad:

qf 1
7th Dec 2011, 18:17
whos going to work for that money:confused:

baron_beeza
7th Dec 2011, 19:43
I thought we discussed this a few weeks ago. Jethro asked the question then and the $33 figure was what ALG got per hour, not the LAME.

Most of us are on $60 to $80 per hour.

rmm
7th Dec 2011, 20:33
Those jobs appear to be AME positions and not LAME ones. Have the metal unions rolled over on this one?

Jethro Gibbs
7th Dec 2011, 23:17
A temporary job with ALG at QF HM BNE
Must be able to commit to ongoing work.WTF !
Are they for Real Yes there are its a disgrace the stuff thats being advertised.:ugh:

Talkwrench
7th Dec 2011, 23:32
Jethro calm down.

I believe ALG have had connies in Brisbane Hangar 3 for the last 4 - 5 years.

Why all the excitement now?

Jethro Gibbs
7th Dec 2011, 23:42
While the ALAEA is handcuffed qantas and this mob a flat out moving towards Temporary / Casual jobs for all at a flat pay rate I think thats a problem I may be wrong guess we will see.:ok:

baron_beeza
8th Dec 2011, 03:00
While the ALAEA is handcuffed qantas and this mob a flat out moving towards Temporary / Casual jobs for all at a flat pay rate I think thats a problem I may be wrong guess we will see.

Oh dear, another jethroism.
Does this mean he has applied for a position ?

may be wrong guess ;)

Jethro Gibbs
8th Dec 2011, 04:30
Does this mean he has applied for a position ?


NO but when everyones working casual a few hours week for labor hire mobs think back :ok:

ConcernedLAME
8th Dec 2011, 05:07
Jethro.....

Those positions are contract AMEs.... There are no contract LAMEs in Brisbane...

Jethro Gibbs
8th Dec 2011, 08:06
I am concerned my co workers have been working behind the cyclone wire fence far to long and are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome they may also have been drinking the company Kool Aid.

baron_beeza
8th Dec 2011, 09:14
Jethro, I have been trying to make sense of your posts here for a while now.
Do you actually work as a LAME ?

You have been anti contracting companies for a long as I can remember.... some of which you obviously knew nothing about.

Many of the guys here are very happy with their life and the flexibility and adaptability they are achieving.
Not everyone wants to have their life waste away while working at the back of one hangar.
Job security may be fine for some.... but there are also horses for courses.

I wonder about your licence coverage because you just seem so out of touch with the hourly rate some of the guys here are getting.

Jethro Gibbs
8th Dec 2011, 09:36
Your in NZ why would you care.

the rim
8th Dec 2011, 10:28
mmmmm mate i think you may have been drinking from the company kool aid....stockholm syndrome give it a rest do you guys actually believe all this sh&t like bodies floating past.... get real.The future is somewhat different from what we know of the past and the sooner WE come to grips with it the better.....and dont start on me about change....the young guys out there need a direction for the future and if that means a shift in the way we do things then so be it....I am not for a lowering of standards but there needs to be a change in the way we do things if the young lame's want a long term job....THE RIM

baron_beeza
8th Dec 2011, 22:10
OK Jethro, I'll bite.

I did notice you answered my question with a question...
Probably says it all..

I am following this Qantas furore, and it does affect me. I have held an Aussie licence for over 15 years (yes, - before TTMA), and I get to work in Aussie and Asia a lot. I operate licences from many countries and get to work in Africa, Asia, the Pacific and even Europe and the Americas.

I have worked for some contracting companies within Oz, including the ones you so ignorantly tried knocking some time back. Indeed I have worked in many places over there, assuming you are in Oz. The working environment has been airline, military and GA. Indeed I have worked for four airlines now and in four different countries.

In over 30 years in the industry you get a feel for what is going on about you. Obviously a mass lay off of qualified staff will have an effect on the employment potential of us all.

Judging by your comments and language it appears you seem to think you are under threat. Getting involved in Company politics and trying to change the world won't help much in that case.
The way to adapt to a changing environment is to pre-empt the situation. Looking at the positives and positioning yourself to make best use of the new world.
I can remember a few of my airline co-workers saying that some of the best career moves they ever made was by taking voluntary redundancy as soon as it was offered.

Many engineers are about to come out of this saga smelling of roses.
For some it will be the best thing that has happened to them as they will discover that people still want to fly.
The industry is expanding all the time despite what the doom merchants are peddling. (Appreciating the cyclic nature of the industry also).

All will be good.

Ngineer
9th Dec 2011, 02:58
The future is somewhat different from what we know of the past and the sooner WE come to grips with it the better.....

To paint a picture that I personally think CN would like to see.... B1 guys eroded away by the type 'A' certifier (an the in-experience that goes with some of them). B2 guys eroded away by the B1 and type 'A' certifiers (and of-course the in-experience that goes with that also). Stuff all B1 type training going forward, and don't expect anymore B2 training (especially at SIT or SDT). Alot of B1's and practically all B2's in a line environment (int or dom) can kiss their ass goodbye in the not too distant future (380-330-787 transits handled by B1/type A/ramp staff only unless assist reqd). And the older experienced LAME's will probably be sent to base to retire or eventually be given the flick.

A cheap and nasty vision for you that I can see happening, or already started.

....I am not for a lowering of standards but there needs to be a change in the way we do things if the young lame's want a long term job....THE RIM

Totally agree, but the way things are starting to pan out is definately not the solution. Nor will it help maintain our impeccable record for safety. IMHO it is more a recipe for disaster.

Short_Circuit
9th Dec 2011, 03:17
Let me paint another picture,
Cat A licensed certifiers (holding a CASA Cat A License) will join the ALAEA, because they are "Licensed", join forces with B1 & B2 certifiers in the ALAEA.
Cat A licensed holders get a new pay agreement, close to the B1 or B2 pay but without the knowledge & experience levels of the B1/B2s.
CN is given the boot for strengthening the ALAEA.
QE suffers from loss of experienced certifiers.

Silverado
9th Dec 2011, 06:31
Don't forget every single B1 LAE is an A licence holder and many B2 are or will be as well.

I think the A licence will be far more utilised by B1/B2 holders.

I think you will end up with a B1, with one type and A coverage on the rest of the fleet.

And keep the B2 guys active with A coverage also.

Just like now with transit authorities but will be able to carry out task trained jobs as well.

Why pay AME's A licence money when you have a LAME workforce that can do all the A licence work for nothing.

Talkwrench
9th Dec 2011, 06:35
Short Circuit:

Cat A licensed certifiers (holding a CASA Cat A License) will join the ALAEA, because they are "Licensed", join forces with B1 & B2 certifiers in the ALAEA.


I agree with you 100%. Regardless of what QF tries to do to have other unions cover the A licences, the A licences will realise that joining the ALAEA and B1 B2 licences will be their best option for effective representation. Eventually, the ALAEA will get a seat at the table for the agreement that covers the A licence.

It's called the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association for a reason.

ALAEA Fed Sec
9th Dec 2011, 07:15
In the words of the AME unions. Cat A certifiers will not be LAMEs. They will just be AMEs with licences.

Arnold E
9th Dec 2011, 08:18
They will just be AMEs with licences.

We could , ofcourse, bury our colletive heads in the sand, but please tell me what the L in LAME stands for.:confused::confused:

UPPERLOBE
9th Dec 2011, 09:16
When the "Approval" system was being floated by the company back in the 70's the ALAEA was asked to include AME's as full members, unfortunately the ability to do so was not then in the associations constitution.

Today not all members of the association are LAME's, the precedent has been set so would including those "certifiers" be an issue?

Yeah, I know, shut up and go back to being retired.

Collando
9th Dec 2011, 12:37
The alaea represents many AMEs at Avalon !

buttmonkey1
9th Dec 2011, 15:17
argy bargy stuff with the the a licence guy
what about the f.i. arriving/departing and reporting
tyre cuts between bag throws.
thats the domestic ramp future.
don't hold your breath for t.crew writing up defects, that will be the
last flight and then the bewitching hour, yeh, lots of night work.
like mr nasty said, anyone wants to go, feel free.
fcuk rim, the future aint good.
sell the boys down the drain before jumping ship.
end of the days, who gives a fcuk.

the rim
9th Dec 2011, 20:52
I am not selling anyone down the drain just stating facts you guys are the ones jumping at shadows....."the skies falling" look at what happens overseas when they introduced this system.....and if you care to go back thru my old threads on this system you will see what I have said about it,its not the death of LAME's but yes it will slow down the numbers of us in the line maint,which wont effect them that are there now,we are our own worst enemy look back at any time our numbers have been reduced and see what we have done.....remember the "one man transits"......the rim

Clipped
9th Dec 2011, 23:42
I'll share my vision. QE Future, Nasty style.

EA9 signed - VR program, less LAMEs.
MOD introduced - less LAMEs.
Cat A certs introduced - less LAMEs.
JHAS 'assigned' more work - less QE LAMEs.
ALG part timers and casuals - less QE LAMEs.
734, 767, 744 retirements - less LAMEs.

The future is bright. Where do you fit?

Jethro Gibbs
9th Dec 2011, 23:46
clipped my point exactly :ok:

Jethro Gibbs
9th Dec 2011, 23:49
The alaea represents many AMEs at Avalon !

Who got a crap deal last EBA because of the threats by qantas to send the work elsewhere some of which went anyway.

the rim
10th Dec 2011, 02:13
so jethro...you are now biting the "ALAEA" hand that feeds you ...like I said before look back at history...jethro you are like the guy at the union meeting after the fed ex has told all that they have got a great deal and you only have to come to work every wed to collect your pay....you would ask "what every wed".......times are a changing,I dont like it but they are.....THE RIM......and give Steve P and the boys some credit

bandit2
10th Dec 2011, 06:40
I wouldn't say our last EBA was crap! The 2008 you mean?
I know this will get some bites, BUT, think of what we have gained since the new Union has been elected! We're still not waiting to fight another day. How many times did we hear that from the previous Union.
I will stand by this Union!

rmm
10th Dec 2011, 06:56
Jethro, you could always put your name forward at the next ALAEA election.

ALAEA Fed Sec
10th Dec 2011, 09:12
Who got a crap deal last EBA because of the threats by qantas to send the work elsewhere some of which went anyway.




The ALAEA did not support a yes vote on the last Avalon deal. The other unions did. The workforce voted for acceptance against our advice so don't blame us.

griffin one
10th Dec 2011, 09:43
Fedsec
There will always be disention, But what most members fail to understand is they are the union.
It's not about the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog and if you don't mind me saying your a mongrel.
All of the ALAEA has endured and fought to the end. Please enjoy an Xmas break

Clipped
10th Dec 2011, 23:27
Fedsec and team

A fantastic effort under the most adverse circumstances.

The EA outcome will do little to deter the destructive path chosen by Q. Destructive, in the sense that it ignores, in fact, rejects the expertise at hand and chooses to destroy a tradition, culture and pursuit of the highest level of aviation maintenance, to save a buck.

The cheapest tender will always win. This management has no moral. Their shortsightedness violates the fabric of our profession. Their KPIs and bonuses, a priority.

My pessimism stems from the fact that they will maintain the fight to the death because it is not their money they are burning.

There is and has been little attempt to grow our Engineering business, their energy and resources are devoted to crush us and our Association.

ampclamp
11th Dec 2011, 21:43
Have the road shows finished ? Cant remember the time line.

booglaboy
11th Dec 2011, 22:41
16dec was the date I recall

Silverado
16th Dec 2011, 07:09
So the last meeting was today. Is there any news?

ALAEA Fed Sec
16th Dec 2011, 10:01
Still counting................

SpannerTwister
16th Dec 2011, 10:04
Still counting................
What does that mean ?

ST

QF94
16th Dec 2011, 10:23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALAEA Fed Sec
Still counting................

What does that mean ?

ST

I think Steve means he's still counting the votes of those that attended meetings over the last couple of weeks around the country as to whether they wanted the ALAEA to put their proposition forward on behalf of the members or not.

Did you attend ST? I hope you did and had a say, otherwise if you didn't get to one of the meetings, your fate rests in the hands of those that did.

SpannerTwister
16th Dec 2011, 10:45
As I understood it SP was going to put "The Proposal" to the company today and they were going to tell us whether or not they will accept it ?

My impression from the meeting was that "The Proposal" was our "wish list" that we were (reasonably) "confident" (hopeful ??) that the company would accept ?

ST

Silverado
16th Dec 2011, 14:23
I think Steve means he's still counting the votes of those that attended meetings over the last couple of weeks around the country as to whether they wanted the ALAEA to put their proposition forward on behalf of the members or not.

I think it would take no longer than an hour to count the votes and considering that the votes could/would have been tallied after each meeting, I would have thought they would have known the result within 15 minutes of the last meeting.


The vote was not a formal one and I suspect we won't get a formal answer to the result of that vote.

An announcement from both QF and the ALAEA on the other hand would be welcome.

buttmonkey1
16th Dec 2011, 17:08
i wouldn't expect anything before the new year business opening.
between the alaea, the qf f'wits and fwa, months not weeks for sure.

chockchucker
16th Dec 2011, 18:10
IF, and that's a big IF, Qantas and the ALAEA have come to an agreement outside arbitration, I would suggest some sort of announcement will be prior to Christmas.

Interested to hear FedSec's views........

ALAEA Fed Sec
16th Dec 2011, 18:30
I would be expecting an announcement on Monday.

TIMA9X
18th Dec 2011, 12:32
Qantas engineers happy but pilots, handlers fight on


Read more: Qantas engineers happy but pilots, handlers fight on (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-engineers-happy-but-pilots-handlers-fight-on-20111218-1p0u5.html#ixzz1gtPk2cKV)

QANTAS has reached an agreement with one of the three unions at the centre of the protracted industrial dispute that led to the grounding of the airline's fleet.

Qantas and its licensed aircraft engineers go before Fair Work Australia today, having settled on key issues following arbitration. However, the union failed to secure the construction of an A380 maintenance hangar in Australia as part of its fight for members' job security.

The agreement marks a significant milestone in the bitter dispute that prompted Qantas to ground its fleet in October, but the airline remains at loggerheads with its ground staff and long-haul pilots over conditions, job security and pay.

Earlier this year, the federal secretary of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, Steve Purvinas, predicted a drawn-out dispute with Qantas and promised to ''bake them slowly'' with industrial action.
But, since Qantas took the unprecedented step of grounding its aircraft, all parties have been forced into binding arbitration.

Of the three groups in dispute with Qantas, the engineers were considered the most likely to resolve their differences. It could still be some weeks, however, before an agreement is finalised by the industrial umpire.
''We will be submitting an agreed workplace determination to Fair Work Australia that represents a good deal for Qantas and its 1600 licensed engineers,'' a Qantas spokesman said.

''All the key issues have been addressed through the arbitration process with the licensed engineers' union and we are very pleased to have finally reached an agreement. It does not include any of the claims that would have restricted Qantas in making the changes needed to compete in the global aviation industry.''

Mr Purvinas declined to comment ahead of today's Fair Work hearing.
The airline's disagreement with its long-haul pilots and baggage handlers is set to run into next year, with Fair Work Australia to hear the dispute with the Australian and International Pilots Association in June.
Meanwhile, a legal challenge by the long-haul pilots against Fair Work's decision to terminate their protected industrial action against Qantas will be fast-tracked in the Federal Court and could begin as early as February.

The vice-president of the pilots' union, Richard Woodward, said it would rather negotiate an in-principle agreement with Qantas than go to workplace determination. ''Hopefully as [Qantas and the union] go through the process of refining our claims we might come to an agreed position,'' he said.

The international arm of Qantas was ''shrinking considerably'' as jobs were sent offshore. ''We're concerned about the future of our young pilots,'' Mr Woodward said. ''We'd hate to see them made redundant from Qantas while [the airline] expands overseas.''
The dispute between Qantas and the Transport Workers Union, which represents baggage handlers, is set down before the full bench of Fair Work in March, with job security remaining a key issue of contention.

''We remain committed to the separate arbitration processes with the pilots' union and Transport Workers Union and are hopeful of reaching a positive outcome in each case,'' a Qantas spokesman said (I wonder who said that)

Read more: Qantas engineers happy but pilots, handlers fight on (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-engineers-happy-but-pilots-handlers-fight-on-20111218-1p0u5.html#ixzz1gtPL6SX4)

See what happens at Fair Work (choices) Australia later today....

Clipped
18th Dec 2011, 20:34
It does not include any of the claims that would have restricted Qantas in making the changes needed to compete in the global aviation industry.

Really?

Can't wait for our official notice this arvo.

airsupport
18th Dec 2011, 21:09
IF that story is true, then it is very sad. :(

I thought (hoped) the main thing you were fighting for was to keep Qantas Australian and to keep jobs primarily IN Australia, apparently not. :(:(:(

ampclamp
18th Dec 2011, 21:09
qantas pr hacks would spin WWII as a victory for the axis powers no matter what the facts are.

They can say what they like if jobs and safety are preserved.

They did the same last time around even though they squandered a bleeding fortune and the alaea largely got what they wanted which was quite reasonable as it was this time.

I too look forward to news from Bexley

ampclamp
18th Dec 2011, 21:11
Cant win them all. Getting the ALAEA to force qantas to spend big bucks on the 380 facility was a noble but very tough one to win.

blubak
18th Dec 2011, 21:25
Many media reports this morning that Qantas have announced an agreement has been reached.
There are always going to be negative comments about what we got & what we maybe should have got but when you consider the corner we were backed into & what the outcome could have been i would think there are not too many members who can really complain.
I think it is time to give credit where it is due & say to our hard working executive we appreciate the efforts you all have gone to in horrendous circumstances particularly over the past couple of months.
Keep up the good work!

ALAEA Fed Sec
18th Dec 2011, 21:26
Announcement on ABC 24 live at 1000.

airsupport
18th Dec 2011, 22:14
I, apparently mistakenly, thought the main thing was keeping as much work and as many Engineering jobs as possible IN Australia, not so much for you current LAMEs now, and certainly not for retired LAMEs like me, but for the future of LAMEs in Australia. :rolleyes:

Just saw the ABC, so the current LAMEs will get a 3% pay rise, but the Industry IN Australia is doomed, great. :mad::mad:

Lets hope the Pilots and the TWU can do better. :ok:

aveng
18th Dec 2011, 22:29
What would you have the ALAEA do airsupport - things have been stacked against us by the government and Qantas. Pretty good result in the scheme of things. Qantas will always continue to snub their nose at common sense, may as well take the money and roll with it.

Thanks to all the negotiating team - enjoy your Christmas break:D

Clipped
18th Dec 2011, 22:49
Firstly, well done to the ALAEA team.

SP, well spoken in front of the media, good one.

Apart from QF pursuing Maint On Demand regardless of Clause 11, we (QF) will NOT see the 787. All those planes go to J*.

Last weeks strategy announcement by QF to investors made it very clear where and when the fleets will be deployed.

But, one fight at a time.

airsupport
18th Dec 2011, 23:00
Okay, I can only go by what is posted here and I see/hear on the news, and it appeared that, as I have sadly seen many times before in my 40 years as an LAME, that many important things were dumped just to get a pay rise. :(

I now know that this is NOT the case, and although I still think more should be done to keep work from going off shore, many other things were gained/retained. :ok:

Merry Christmas to SP and the Team, and ALL of you here on PPRuNe. :ok:

ampclamp
18th Dec 2011, 23:15
Airsupport, thanks for your support during this dispute.

Ultimately there are limits on what we can do industrially.

Keeping a viable industry in Australia is mostly a political decision.

I have seen many millions of dollars thrown at car companies over the years. That ,after being tariff protected for many more.

Aviation , despite its strategic importance to a large and isolated nation gets SFA help.

I am a firm believer in getting good people into the senate to represent the industry. We cant rely on a knife edge govt and hostile senate for support. If any major party gets both the reps and senate we're stuffed.

Labor failed at the last hurdle and interests within the party did us over for their own power base.Of that I am certain.

TIMA9X
19th Dec 2011, 01:30
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............

QF94
19th Dec 2011, 01:47
Firstly, to all the guys in the ALAEA Executive team, Well Done! It wasn't an easy road to travel, but we got what can be considered the best deal under the circumstances we were placed. That is between the QF board and the government.

As for maintaining jobs in Australia, this was never going to happen. No matter our demands and cases put forward, it is a corporate mind set and government willingness to allow jobs to leave our shores and grow other economies while ours, as good as it is at the moment, will eventually become like those we are sending our jobs to. It is very unfortunate that those at the top have no faith in, or see no future in employment in this country. Employment is treated like a liability and not an asset. I'm not just talking about QANTAS employees either.

Enjoy that the dispute is now over and we now know the outcome and get our backpay and future grade jumps. It is now time to reflect on the year that was, enjoy the upcoming Christmas time with your families and friends and keep safe and well for the New Year.

gobbledock
19th Dec 2011, 02:53
Perhaps the little fella was on an incentive bonus to close the deal before Xmas day????
A Merry Xmas to be sure!
Agreement or not, some things will not change, and that is current management are by far the worst in this airlines history, and the actions taken by them with the 'lock out' will remain a smudge on the QF brand along with every other brand damaging act they have undertaken in recent years.

To QF staff have a very Merry Xmas and continue your part in keeping the air safe.
To QF Management - A healthy Xmas middle finger salute !

TIMA9X
19th Dec 2011, 02:58
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"Negotiations are never easy" Say that again Bill.... now Bill claims Gillard fixed it! There is no end to this current Labor government distortion of the truth....
hang your head in shame Bill... this is what you said on the 31/10/11

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It is my view, FWA is flawed.

we got what can be considered the best deal under the circumstances we were placed. That is between the QF board and the government.Yep!

The credit should go to SP and his team....well done guys!

denabol
19th Dec 2011, 03:03
Take a look at the share price while this has been going on. (No, I haven't any)

Ben has a go at this, saying it could all have been agreed months ago in normal negotiations and has been a big pissing contest to boil it down.

Reckon similar questions might get asked by lots of people.

Qantas gives up job security, union gives up on maintenance | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/19/qantas-gives-up-on-job-security-union-gives-up-on-a380-maintenance-accc-gives-up-on-illegal-sales-tis-the-season-for-giving/)

ampclamp
19th Dec 2011, 04:32
Ever since the pro forma agreement was presented to the engineers I've been wondering 2 things.

1/ How are they going to %^$# us over with semantics in the agreement?:mad:

2/ If they are going to stick to the agreements words, what the bleeding hell was it all about ? So much damage and angst for jackshite.:ugh: