Qf LAME EBA Negotiations Begin

[Arnold E]

Fair enough, but we saw bu##er all here in Adelaide, so the travelling public here at the arse end of the world, just say Ta.

[Lean Sigma]

Big home run scored today from the ALAEA team.
Great leadership and decision by the exec.
This is why we will win the war. :ok:

[Arnold E]

This is why we will win the war. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
I certainly hope so.

[Jethro Gibbs]

A Huge % of the public would not even know what ALAEA is in the end this decision will mean nothing and no points will be given by the public who are not even involved in any EBA.

[Jethro Gibbs]

TIGER CABIN ANNOUNCEMENT: Please return your seats to the upright position. Our work experience pilot has to return to his cleaning job.:ok:

[Arnold E]

A Huge % of the public would not even know what ALAEA isI agree
in the end this decision will mean nothing and no points will be given by the public who are not even involved in any EBA.
I dont agree, if, as Steve says, that the reason that the industrial action has been called off is given to the public, then I think they will be sympathetic, but, the information has to get out, it looks like Steve did all he could, if some of us missed that info, then at least I hope the majority of people heard the reasons.

[Jethro Gibbs]

the information has to get out

I have only seen it reported in one media outlet and I was looking for it.

[Arnold E]

I have only seen it reported in one media outlet and I was looking for it.
This is the point I am making, follow up is necessary.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I haven't seen it reported at all but I am watching the footy. Good feedback is coming in to our website from members of the public though (more than the negative feedback when we announced action). A couple of examples -

Hi, just want to say I respect your right to take industrial action when your organization feels it necessary. But I highly respect your decision to cancel or postpone your action to help out with the Tiger issue. Well done to you !! Hope you get what you want when in your discussions/negotiations going forward :) regards




I'd just like to congratulate your members for calling off your industrial action in light of the shutdown of Tiger and the confusion that has caused.

It is a good, community focused decision. Sometimes we need to put our immediate wishes aside for a while, for the greater good. I think you have made a wise decision.

Good luck with your campaign on the future.

[Jethro Gibbs]

I Agree with you but the media by tomorrow has moved on if the ALAEA think the public care that they have no PIA next week they are fooling themselves what do they put PIA off for next time there will always be some issue just get on with it.

[emal140]

Fed Sec
Perhaps getting the message to the transport minister and broadcast some positive feedback from him...do you think you could??

emal

[blubak]

All,keep you trust in our executive(union) & the fact that the company e mailed the assoc to ask them to reconsider our action may not seem like much now but a lot can be read between the lines.
Good work boys.

[Clipped]

Heard yesterday that our Head of People and a very fine human, Millsy, has been shown the door (for personal reasons).

If true, he will be sorely missed and that employee-management bridge has truly been severed.

Anyone heard anymore? Is Millsy making a career move to the Rails?

Nice move SP and team, regardless of what the public think and hear it is just as important to win the hearts and minds of the pollies. Can't see how we or the pilots are going to play out Q in their print media propaganda blitz. We're sorry, we're safe and that's why you fly Q ... blah, blah. BUT WHY WERE OUR PAX (CUSTOMERS) REDIRECTED AND FLOWN ON OTHER CARRIERS? How else was the safety card going to be played? Nice move Q.

And the trolls out there still trying the pilot vs engineer divide? Boys, we're so much in the same pile of poo that we only need Q to keep bashing us systematically, it's forged the best ever relationship we have ever had with our drivers (on all fleets). Only ever get messages of support from tech and cabin crews, and sometimes even a chocolate.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Also remember guys a lot of crap is playing out behind the scenes here. The failing of Tiger is a good thing for all of us, even those Tiger staff who will eventually find work with a better airline.

[another superlame]

I don't know what forces are in play Steve, but the timing of events in the lead up to PIA is just impeccable.

[tech-line]

Your actions should be applauded but I can't help but think that management will not be as gracious to you as they keep sticking it to qf employees.
It Is a fine line this game that it's being played right now and I hope you all stick together for the sake of everyone involved.

[hewlett]

In relation to media reporting, Sky News had a continuous scripted message playing across the bottom of the screen along the lines of "Qantas engineers have cancelled planned industrial action following the grounding of Tiger Airlines". A good PR move and the right thing to do in my book. Finally some accurate and positive media reporting.Well done SP and the Bexley team.

[Mstr Caution]

Superlame.
If it wasn't for a printing error on the ballot form requiring a reissue of the form. The long haul pilots PIA results would have been in this week. A remarkable coincidence!

[qf 1]

isn't Tiger owned by Singapore airlines,the same airline that does the wide body maintenance on some of QANTAS's aircraft.

[sfde]

Watched the news on a couple of the nations finest stations and both went into detail about the Tiger issue but neither mentioned our gracious move to suspend our action. Not really sunrised but disappointing considering the flogging we have copped from media and Q assclowns. :ugh:
Keep up the great work all the crew at our ALAEA and you have our support 100%.

Its not a spelling mistake.

[Jethro Gibbs]

our gracious move to suspend our action. Not surprised
5 pages worth in Sunday herald sun and no mention should have just had the PIA as planned going to get nothing for putting it off :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

5 pages worth in Sunday herald sun and no mention should have just had the PIA as planned going to get nothing for putting it off :ugh:



Tell me critic, and that is what you are and it is in no way constructive. What would you do if you were running the ALAEA, you didn't call off action and the government stepped in and made that decision for you.

Do you have an answer or maybe you could just acknowledge that a decision was made for all the right reasons?

[Bumpfoh]

Wishful thinking but after the phone call between SP and the minister one could only hope that the said minister then made a further call to AJ and told him some home truths about the "state of the nation" etc etc.:suspect:

[QFBUSBOY]

Ch.7 news showed a short piece of Fed Sec explaining about the ALAEA not proceeding with the PIA.

Ch.9 did not.

IMHO this is a good move by the Exec, as we don't need the Govt forcing their hand and giving QF management the Royal Flush to force us to accept a deal that we don't want. Although we are persuing a EA wage increase, we are also supposed to be promoting air safety, and Tiger is a classic example of everything EXCEPT 100% safety before schedule.

It is better we do the morally right thing and hold over the PIA until a later date, as this war will not be won overnight, but by good strategic planning by our elected ALAEA exec.

Keep up the good work Steve and all other Exec members.

I voted YES for a reason:ok:

[Disengagement]

Well done with calling off the PIA , since when do we need to tell Qantas what we are doing in advance , gone are the days of dinner at the seaside the night before a EBA meeting:= .I see that one current point in the EBA is the certainty of your leave and from what I gather your leave is touch and go up until you take it:ok:. Remember you have worked to earn this leave so should be able to take it with advanced planning when you want. So give Qantas the same inflexibility that they extend to you with your leave with your PIA action and teach them how it feels to not be able to plan ahead and the costs involved .:p
10/10 for calling action off , keep the public on side and them questing and show to the public what a LAME less tarmac can result in .
Stay Strong United not divided you cant be defeated :D:D:D

[SpannerTwister]

Well, Maybe we don't exactly have the company on the ropes, but IMHO, calling off the PIA like this certainly lands them a good blow right in their PR's :D !

As well as gaining public "goodwill" in the immediate term, it makes our case when we do take PIA for "safety reasons" so much more credible.

With the added advantage of making QF look like the "baddies" for out-sourcing their maintenance to places like Singapore.

Don't forget, that this will of also allowed us to of stored up a couple of "brownie points" in the halls of government and media.

IMHO, we had no option but to call off the PIA, but as an added bonus, doing so makes us look like the "good guys" !

Two-thumbs-up !!

ST

[Ngineer]

Wishful thinking but after the phone call between SP and the minister one could only hope that the said minister then made a further call to AJ and told him some home truths about the "state of the nation" etc etc.

Who's to say that the minister didn't call the Fed Sec after already speaking to AJ??? (ie, AJ asking him to).

Good Kudos for us, but back to battle stations again shortly.

[YOSHI]

Good choice by the exec. in the current circumstance.........


BUT............. remember the whole point of this is to safeguard the future of Aircraft Engineering in Australia.

It is the responsibility of the current Government , and the Minister in particular, to ensure the future of Aircraft Engineering in Australia to remain at the high standard that it currently has.

None of this 'Worlds Best Practice' rubbish.............

[Bigdog01]

It has become very apparent that we were very carefully goaded into a fight by upper mis - management. They now have the result they required - Brisbane a skeleton of its former self. Turnaround port only and fix it to fly it base - no scheduled maintenance.
Of course they miss some important details - now won't have enough people to fix major breakages ( have to fly people in from other bases if avail). That is if we can get into hangar.
Lets do the maintenance where the least number of aircraft overnight - schedulling need to be on top of it just to arrange. U/S's create havoc with the plan and they need to ferry empty to & fro.:=

Disillusioned staff, delusional manager's, what a place to hang your hat as far as a career path.

[Nepotisim]

Should this concern us?

http://www.amtonline.com/web/online/Top-News/Boeing-Shanghai-Earns-Maintenance-Certification-from-Australia-Civil-Aviation-Safety-Authority-/1$13931

Boeing Shanghai Earns Maintenance Certification from Australia Civil Aviation Safety Authority

Boeing Shanghai
SHANGHAI, June 29, 2011 – Boeing Shanghai Aviation Services Co., Ltd. (Boeing Shanghai) today announced that it has received maintenance certification from the Australia Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA), allowing Boeing Shanghai to serve customers in Australia.
The CASA certification enables Boeing Shanghai to perform base maintenance up to and including D checks, as well as line maintenance, for Boeing Classic and Next-Generation 737 models, including 737-300s, -400s, -500s, -600s, -700s, -800s and -900s.
“With this certification, Boeing Shanghai is able to extend cost-effective and high-quality service to an extremely important aviation market, encompassing world-class carriers,” said Bernard Hensey, CEO of Boeing Shanghai. “This is another key step in the development of Boeing Shanghai’s global outreach, which now includes maintenance certifications for Australia, Bangladesh, Bermuda, China, Europe, Russia, South Korea, Thailand and the United States.”
Boeing Shanghai was established as a joint venture of Boeing, Shanghai Airport Authorities and China Eastern Airlines. Boeing Shanghai offers a broad range of services – from engineering, aircraft maintenance and modification to component repair and overhaul and material management – to exceed customer expectations.

[blubak]

Have seen this statement written many times in the last few days-Well,guess what,isnt that exactly what they have been trying to do for nearly 9 months now???
Obviously a forgotten fact but dont you have to have a reasonable offer on the table before it can be negotiated on.
So,now show us how keen you are to negotiate,put an offer on the table that is fair & reasonable(your words),dont reneg or publish false information in the media & for the small minded that just cant help themselves-name calling is very childish!!:ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We have never missed or walked away from any meeting. The airline obviously is comfortable misleading the public with statements like this.

[blubak]

Exactly what i am saying Steve,maybe time to hammer them hard-all the evidence is there now from the letters of the last few days,almost every 1 of them is encouraging the ALAEA to negotiate a fair and reasonable outcome,maybe the commision or FWA need to have a look at their on going rhetoric!

[BaronB]

just means when it comes time, we hit harder

[whatdouknow]

so the action was cancelled/postponed after QF asked us to do this... bulls**t from what I hear!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We'd put it back before Qantas sent us a letter.

[whatdouknow]

so again it appears that QF are not saying the full story... perhaps they like to lie to everyone just to feather their own caps and make them out to be the good guys!

[PTTSwitch]

Where do you think the next D Check is going Nepotism?
OJN in August.

[1me]

It shouldn't surprise anyone that QF management seems intent on purveying lies or misinformation to further their cause.

Unions need to act smarter and conduct their actions in innovative ways. I believe we are doing this.

The fact that management seeks to undermine us in the media has had the effect of galvanising the unity and co-operation of the various employee groups. Well done Qantas!

Fed Sec, I support you guys 100% and trust that the courses of action you decide to take have been carefully considered. I know this race is not a sprint..

[Clipped]

Whilst researching the formidable business acumen of our Board, I came across a very interesting and recent article regarding our very own Peter Cosgrove.


Build our ships at home, says former defence chief

Brendan Nicholson, Defence Editor
From:The Australian
June 30, 201112:00AM


AUSTRALIA will spend almost $250 billion building, operating and maintaining warships during the next 30 years and the money should be spent here instead of purchasing vessels overseas, says former defence force chief Peter Cosgrove.

General Cosgrove told The Australian the fleet set down in the 2009 Defence white paper would require at least 48 new vessels in addition to the giant landing ships and air warfare destroyers already being built.

"Unfortunately, current media debate about Australia's indigenous naval shipbuilding capability is focused on single projects, surmountable start-up issues, and the initial purchase price of each vessel rather than the total cost of buying and maintaining the fleet over its full life," General Cosgrove said.

"This short-term focus, coupled with budgetary constraints, predictably leads to calls to buy 'cheaper' off-the-shelf naval vessels from overseas."

While buying ships overseas might appear the cheapest solution, it would compromise Australia's ability to maintain and upgrade naval ships, particularly in times of conflict, and increase the total cost, General Cosgrove said.

He said Australia had a good record of building naval vessels and the debate was ignoring critical issues.

Speaking as chairman of the South Australian defence advisory board, General Cosgrove said focusing on the purchase price ignored the critical cost of running ships throughout their lives.

Whether ships were bought off the shelf abroad or designed and built in Australia, the cost estimate must take into account both building and operating them. "As much as 85 per cent of total project cost can be spent supporting the ship through its life," General Cosgrove said.

"This massive shipbuilding program demands a long-term multi-project plan, which takes a whole-of-life approach to deliver the naval capability we need.

"If we are serious about efficiency -- and we must be -- then our building program must give certainty to industry so they can invest to deliver the capability at best price.

"An experienced, competent Australian shipbuilding industry can build ships as cost-effectively as other shipbuilding nations."


Now if only this level of concern and determination for Australian aviation maintenance was on the real agenda of the Board.

Sigh.

[legacy LAME]

As channel 9's cast and crew choose to fly qantas, it comes as no suprise that they only cover qantas's side of the story. All they are doing is protecting their "sponsors" interests.
What we have here is another version of Cash for comment, except this time its
travel for comment.
I hate that today show anyhow. I will have to find something else to watch during
my 2 hr work stoppage . Can you make it a sat morning Steve so i can
watch the thunderbirds

[whatdouknow]

the credability of the "Today" show is less than the Thunderbirds so that is a good choice... from what I understand those in the know will see the big holes in certain media content and those statements released by QF to the public and staff.

the real story is as simple as following the real story on the floor... where the real guys know what is happening.

shame that the 'untruths' will see Qantas management with their pants around their knees... might not happen yet but I believe it will.

[Dockie]

I would like to use this forum to send my best wishes to Darrel Walker, a fellow LAME from Melbourne who is currently waiting for a liver transplant. All the best mate!

[lamem]

I would like to also pass on my best wishes to Darrel. Met him a few times, liked the man I met. Hope all works out for you.

[blackbook]

All the Best Darrel

[1746]

All the best Dazza, thinking of you and yours!

thanks for the friendship and professionalism - you show how it should be done!:ok::ok:

[diwai]

Hey Brother Darrel our hopes and wishes are with you......
All the best Old Bull......

:8:8:8

[screwstick]

Hang in there Buddy ! All the best to Cindy and the family...................

[the rim]

things have gone a bit quite of late due to the tiger issue and its a big issue dont get me wrong......but given the time it makes one think....could this all be a plan, tiger goes under or at least a few weeks off at the start of our PIA ,we with all good intent withdraw our action and CASA step in and make a big fuss over tiger while we do our normal job the new regs slip in amongst all this mess [not forgetting they were always coming in]but it all looks like a set up,whats next

[Arnold E]

it all looks like a set up,
Very unlikely that Fort Fumble could get that well organized :rolleyes:

[YOSHI]

Just read the latest Notice from ALAEA.

Great stuff, keep up the good work.

I can just imagine the headache this gives QF.

Love it.

[Jethro Gibbs]

A one minute work stoppage


Thats bound to bring them to there knees :O

[the rim]

jethro....keep the faith....or shut up

[SpannerTwister]

Jethro..........

As I read the FS post, this "action" is more of a legal technicality rather then something designed to cripple the company.

You may recall that on the previous action El Presidente had to stop work for one hour to, as they say, start the ball rolling.

Reading what FS said I think this may be along similar lines.

ST

[Squeaks]

It sounds likes someone's having joke but Qantas engineers are vowing to use screwdrivers and spanners with their left hand only as part of an ongoing industrial dispute with the airline.

It is unclear if left-handed people will be asked to use their right hand.

Apart from that they'll also stop work for one minute at 10am on Friday.

The Aircraft Engineers' Assocation's original plans were disrupted by the grounding of Tiger Airways and now Federal Secretary Steve Purvinas says under the Fair Work Act they need to act otherwise they'll have to have another ballot of members.

Olivia Wirth for Qantas says although it sounds flippant it's actually quite serious.

3AW Melbourne (http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/3aw-breakfast-blog/handy-strike-is-no-union-joke/20110713-1hcte.html)

[SpannerTwister]

Reading the blogs and comments around the place it seems that the "Left-handed" tactic is not going down very well at all with the public.

A quick retraction of that one may be appropriate ??

ST

[ACT Crusader]

From the Herald Sun

Qantas engineers to use only their left hands in latest strike action | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/qantas-engineers-to-use-only-their-left-hands-in-latest-strike-action/story-fn7x8me2-1226093617374)


AIRCRAFT engineers will resort to left-handed tactics in their union's latest battle with Qantas.

Qantas faces industrial action from aircraft engineers which includes a pledge by two veteran right-handed union members, Melbourne's Wesley Bell and Vinko Vulin from Perth, to try to maintain the airline’s planes by using their left hand only on screwdrivers, spanners and other tools.
The engineers’ union has notified Qantas that action to commence from late this week includes the action by the two maintenance engineers.
About 1600 Qantas engineers, who are demanding the airline guarantee maintenance jobs won't be shifted overseas, will also hold a minute's stop-work on Friday.

Engineers will remain silent in tribute to defunct airline Ansett, which they claim was a victim of poor management decisions.
Start of sidebar.


The Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association explained today that the moves were industrial tactics necessary to keep their campaign for wage rises and job protection alive, but Qantas is not seeing any humour in the situation.

Union secretary Steve Purvinas said today the left-handed action would be confined to two members of the union’s executive, who could choose when and where they would do their job using only their left hand.
“They’re both very good engineers,” he said today.
“I imagine they’d probably be good with their left hands.”

It was an action to which would not disrupt the wider travelling public, still struggling to get holiday flights after the suspension of Tiger services.
Mr Purvinas explained that union members had voted for industrial action under the Fair Work Act which gave the union leadership a variety of options including strikes and various bans.

But to avoid another strike vote some action had to be taken within 30 days and both the left-handed work and the one-minute strike were ways of technically meeting the Act’s requirements without causing massive disruption.

Mr Bell, the union's vice-president, works on Qantas line maintenance at Tullamarine and said he was confident he could do his job left-handed from time to time.

"I'm very handy with my left hand, for 30 years in this industry i've been handy with either - i'm naturally right handed," he said.

"You can work a screwdriver with both hands.
"I don't see any problems with safety and the name of this game is to take an action which won't disrupt the passengers."
Qantas was not amused.

“We don’t want this to become a safety issue,” a Qantas spokeswoman said.

“Its actually quite serious, I know it sounds flippant. Its ongoing action by the union but we’ll be looking into it because we don’t want there to be any screws loose.”

Qantas says the union do not have to take any token action to extend their right to act beyond 30 days, instead being able to ask Fair Work Australia for an extension.

The ALAEA and Qantas have been locked in talks for months over the new enterprise agreement, which included a planned strike by engineers at the start of the school holidays which the union called off at the last minute.



Screws loose, mmmmm....

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I haven't seen bugger all negative feedback. the article above explains it well.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Re the interview on 3AW this morning the program hosts were laughing before and even more after it and got no good will from the QF spokes model at all on putting off PIA .

[King William III]

The only loose screws that are going to be found are in the boardroom……….

[MELKBQF]

'Handy' strike is no union joke (http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/3aw-breakfast-blog/handy-strike-is-no-union-joke/20110713-1hcte.html)

[SpannerTwister]

Plenty of media / FB & Twitter comments like the comments on this article ...............

Qantas engineers to use only their left hands in latest strike action | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/qantas-engineers-to-use-only-their-left-hands-in-latest-strike-action/story-fn7x8me2-1226093617374)

ST

[airtags]

oh dear poor Olivia sounded so out of touch that she couldnt even offer a friendly laugh. Somebody pls put her out of her misery!!!!

A great tactic and again showed Q Management as a bunch of out of touch liars - maybe one day the little bloke can crawl out from under his wallet to face the public!


AT


Oh for any journos some more key questions - this time for Olivia: (feel free to add) - Unless she can answer yes then the overiding question is How do you know and why should the wider public believe you?
Have you ever been on the flight deck and watched and listened as the pilots handle a busy approach in bad weather?
Have you ever spent a few hours watching an engineer trying to rectify a defect on a clapped out, 20 year old rebirthed plane?
Have you ever had a close look at how parts and components are processed and documented?
Have you ever had to feed 14 first class passengers when there's only enough catering for 7 and do a 20 hour shift before getting off the aircraft?
Have you ever spent a few hours with the CC's as they deal with drunk or upset passengers angry at QF Management's blind bastardry or as they sit stuck in less quality hotels far away from their kids and loved ones because oflast minute planning by QF?
Have you ever spent a night in a freezing cold hanger in Melbourne as engineers scrimp parts from other aircraft because cutbacks have left nil parts and nil time and the a/c is desperately needed on-line in 5 hours?
Have you ever asked our wives and kids how invasive and bullying QF are? - especially when it comes to pulling people in on weekends, days off
When was the last time you sat in the middle economy seat in the back row while on company business?
Do you really understand that a low hour pilot from a third world country just does not have the experience
You spruik 'safety first' but have you ever tracked a safety issue through the SMS? Do you even know what events are reportable to Regulators and what are not?

[600ft-lb]

I liked the radio interview, especially Olivia's responses. She'd make a good 1st year, send her to the tool crib for a long weight.

[another superlame]

Whilst she is there she could also pick me up a left handed screwdriver!

[middleman]

I'm 100% in support of the LAMES cause and think the Union is doing a great job. But the latest action is not going down too well with the public. The average person will not read between the lines and will just think this is a silly tactic. Read the comments from the articles on News LTD and Fairfax sites. Not too positive...

[QF DONKEY]

sorry guys you have been doing a great job up until now,i think you need to pull this dumb tack tik.you look very stupid:eek:

[legacy LAME]

middleman ,i here what you say about the News Limited media, however
I am not sure it would really matter what we did.
Call me a cynic, but I think that they will put the slant on any story that suits the agenda of the owner and there " sponsors".
You will probably find that just like Channel 9 they get well looked after by qantas and would not put that cosy arrangement in jeopardy.
PS I think ! min stop work is a great tactic.

['holic]

That was p1ss funny! First time anything Wirthless has said has brought a smile to my face.

[Ngineer]

Have you ever

Seen a shoddy repair from an overseas MRO, or any repair at all for that matter????

[Nassensteins Monster]

According to Business Spectator:

The engineers are asking for a pay rise of close to 16 per cent over three years.

Really? So it's not the 30-something percent QF claim? :confused:

[Going Boeing]

Donkey, I disagree. This tactic has got the dispute back in the public eye with a strong message that the ALAEA does not want to disrupt the travelling public. It re-enforces that the dispute is with QF management.

[buttmonkey1]

http://media.mytalk.com.au/3AW/AUDIO/130711_RUMOUR.mp3

rotflmao, she is a cretin.

[the rim]

oops sorry wrong decade....look I thought it may have been a bit unprofessional at first, but when I read the Qantas response's my opinion has changed ....they should really get someone with more cred's then Olivia.....and I think we all have put the odd screw in with our left hand as sometimes we cannot reach it with the other.Thats what we do improvise,overcome,adapt....thanks BP.....the rim

[Cargo744]

Sorry Steve but the left hand and 60 second strike is an own goal. QF management are pathetic but they would be thriving on this announcement. You have just given unjust ammo to Wirthless.

[noip]

Cargo,

Oh contraire ... I think it is brilliant ... Steve 1 ... Olivia 0.

Just goes to show how different people view things.

Fair Work never envisaged people with a sense of humour ....


N

[Cargo744]

NOIP... So many have said on here that you want public support and that the public perception is so important. Well this move makes you look like petulant children and plays into the hands of those you seek to persuade. Your union should be smarter than this.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Fact is this was laughed at on radio this morning and thats not good.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I sense that the 6 or 7 news outlets who interviewed us today were quite positive and understanding that this has been done to meet a legal requirement. It then gave us further opportunity to discuss the real issues of concern, the obsession of management to take the Aussie out of Qantas.

I've read some of the blog posts on the sites and think it clear that the negative comments are posted by persons who would never be supportive of any union regardless of what was happening. Regardless of what one thinks of the actions, they had to be taken or the ballot validity would lapse.

I think the response from Qantas flushed out the lengths they will go to in order to peddle rubbish. If we have a look at the usual lines -

Qf 32 - The safety of passengers was never an issue
Manilla - The safety of passengers was never an issue
Jetstar groundings - It's not a safety issue
Missed AD's on 738's - It's not a safety issue
Jitcinnict pilots low hours - It's not a safety issue
Sin LAME certifies 52 hours work in one shift - It's not a safety issue
list goes on....

Two LAMEs with 30 years experience each swap hands to do up screws - This is a safety issue that we will have to investigate further.

[blubak]

RE;point #7,
When you get called up on your day off ,just give them the answer that you are very happy to come in when a taxi turns up outside the door to take you to work and that there is also a letter waiting for you signed by your manager to say it is ok to work on company aircraft with a blood alcohol level more than ZERO.After that,you should have no more problems with them calling you and there will be no domestic issues either!!

[noip]

If you look at my profile, you will see I am not a Lame ..

However ..

I AM a student of military history and I would most definitely follow Steve.

I would NOT like to have him as the opposing General.

N

[Cargo744]

Steve make them your main points then! You are being destroyed in credibility by a useles hack in Wirthless due to juvinile mistakes. If you can't handle the public forum (like Barry Jackson can't) it's not an admission of defeat. Work in the background on good, hard hitting policies that someone trained in the bull**** PR world can deliver. The public are fickle and if you want them on your side you need these people. You may not admit it but the public's perception of the Unions is that they are greedy and unrealistic. Heads in the sand will end with QF being and Asian carrier.

[blubak]

Pls feel free to give us an answer Miss O,we wuld love to hear from you!!
The question is,Why has there been a YES vote to PIA of more than 80% for Lame's & more than 90% for the Pilots????
Surely a lady of your intelligence would be able to guess the answer without having to think too much and disturbing your leisure time at home after your 9am to 5pm working day not forgetting that it is also monday to friday.

[mahatmacoat]

Fact is this was laughed at on radio this morning and thats not good.


The only laughter I heard on the radio was directed at Qantas and the uncertaintity they face with the next letter they may get. Steve then explained the thing really well and scored a few blows on the spokesmodel to boot. Usual trolls on here spreading FUD.

[noip]

Blubak,

Give her a break, she's only a mouthpiece ...... I'm sure she's a very nice person underneath.

:E


N

[Cargo744]

You guys really are in trouble. So defensive over any advice that is given that doesn't rely on childish games. I am not a troll (although i am sure you will shoot me down as one) i was trying to offer some opinion from my experience and perspective. I have a close family member work as a pilot for QF for 41 yrs and was screwed by the current management and therefore hold nothing but contempt for Joyce and especially the Chief Pilot who is an arrogant piece of you know what. I would like nothing more than you to succeed and boot Joyce out of the country. But the way you are currently going about it is losing the war. Fight... but fight smart.

[EWANQF]

QF LAMES are in it for the LONG HAUL.WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!We are awaiting the next ALAEA Directive.

[Jethro Gibbs]

The only laughter I heard on the radio was directed at Qantas

Not on 3AW in Melbourne

[blueloo]

...just for giggles...can someone please mount a big Screwdriver on a plaque and put on a little brass plate underneath "Left Handed Screwdriver - to be used by Olivia when she needs a screw"

And present it to her.... don't forget to have a photographer on hand for a nice little pic to share with the troops!
:E

[framer]

I've read some of the blog posts on the sites and think it clear that the negative comments are posted by persons who would never be supportive of any union regardless of what was happening. Regardless of what one thinks of the actions, they had to be taken or the ballot validity would lapse.



ALAEA Fed Sec, I disagree. As a supporter of your cause, and of the pilots, as an ex LAME and a current ATPL, I agree with statements like

Well this move makes you look like petulant children

and

Sorry Steve but the left hand and 60 second strike is an own goal.

It really does make me cringe.
If I was you I would watch how it plays out and unless it gains you public favour, be ready to admit that it may not have been the best tactic. There is no real problem with that, noone gets it dead right all the time. The trick is to be willing to say 'ahhh yeah, that sucked...won't do that again in a hurry' and then carry on. We will still be behind you, but it's important to be ready to admit a mistake if it comes to it so that folks who support the cause but dislike the tactic don't get alienated.
Just my 2 cents.
PS good work on everything else to date.

[legacy LAME]

Just listened to O on the 3AW link and I have to give credit to the lady in identifying a very serious safety issue. when she stated that the company needed to ensure that using tools with the non preferred hand was not a safety issue I was wondering what steps they had taken
now I am left handed,( as a higher than normal percentage of people in QE
Are,) and there are times in the course of my job that I have to use tools with my right hand and I would not want to work unsafe or breech any of the qantas safety beliefs !
1/ does O want me to only use my right hand as I am not as good as I am with my left
2/ Is there an EQ competency that I need to compete to allow me to use my non preferred hand?
3/ As O said they needed to ensure it was not a safety issue and O has therefore identified a potential problem should the company not issue a notice stating that all qantas engineering staff should not use there non preferred hand until assessments can be carried out on all staff
4/ Will this be included in the cardinal rules?
5/ We should all have our tow safe cards notated as to which hand we use .

As this is a very serious issue I firmly believe that the ALAEA should direct that until further notice a left and right handed person should be allocated to each task.

Finally i commend O and i will be nominating her for an award for excellance.
Remember safety is everyones responsibility

[airsupport]

Steve,

You know my background and I support you 100%. :ok:

First I heard of this was just now when a Relative of mine phoned me from Melbourne, she had heard of this new tactic (I had not), and as I was an LAME all my working Life she asked me about it. As she and her Family travel with QF all the time Worldwide she was concerned, I told her I did not know of it, however after visiting PPrUNe now I will have to call her back. :eek:

From what she said these new tactics are NOT going down very well with the travelling Public. :(

[Dockie]

This is gold, but isn't it true that qantas "management's" left hand doesn't know what there right hand is doing?

[Jet-A-One]

I don't know about anyone else but this sh1t is really getting old for me.

If they refuse to ngotiate, lets stop playing games and start some real PIA. Overtime and higher duties bans and a strict work to rule would be a good start. If it's not school holidays or Tiger it'll be something else. Let's get into it!

Fu(k the media and public perception. We'll never win against the QF PR spin.

These pr1cks won't listen untill you've got them by the balls and start to twist!

[Ultergra]

'Handy' strike is no union joke (http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/3aw-breakfast-blog/handy-strike-is-no-union-joke/20110713-1hcte.html)

At 5 mins 30...

Nice one Olivia.

[Ken Borough]

Will someone please tell the pr!cks at the ALAEA that April Fools' Day was three and a half months ago and that the citizenry will not be buying their nonsense? :ugh::ugh:

[airsupport]

This latest proposed action does NOT need much spin put on it. :eek:

As my Sister-in-law said to me, you mean the Engineer responsible for the safety of the aircraft I am flying in is purposely misusing his tools. :eek:

Try to imagine that you are NOT an LAME, someone who did NOT know what was happening, what would you think?

OR, imagine you had to go to hospital tomorrow for an operation, and you found out today that the Surgeons were in dispute with the Hospitals and are going to use their scalpels and other tools in their wrong hands on purpose, would YOU be happy about that? ;)

[Ken Borough]

I'm sure that a surgeon would be thrilled to know that the work he or she does is comparative with that of a spanner-turner! Get real. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[airsupport]

Actually there is NO comparison of course. :ok:

While the work of an LAME and that of a Surgeon are similar in many ways, and can be life threatening if mistakes are made, as I always tell my Doctor when he says, how are you today, and what is wrong with you, and what do you think we should do about it etc etc.............. IF ONLY AIRCRAFT COULD TALK AND ANSWER TROUBLE SHOOTING QUESTIONS. ;)

[Mr Mott]

I read with total dismay the current tactic of the ALAEA and its executive. As a current LAME of 28 years the proposed action just makes the association and you the members look like an unorganised rabble. I remember when the ALAEA and it's members were seen as professionals and thus treated so (not acting in a professional manner on both sides, is perhaps that's why you have not moved forward in the the recent EBA's).
The latest action (under the excuse of keeping the action alive) just makes you all look vindictive. Whilst I acknowledge the action will have little impact on the operation and the travelling public, not everyone travels on Qantas and as such the public will look on this action by the ALAEA as a joke.
Lift yourselves out of the gutter and act in a professional manner even when the other side does not, this will win the support of the public.

[Black Hands]

Jet-A-One, I'm with you mate. I understand what The Fed Sec's trying to achieve by keeping the Transport Minister on side and maintaining the departure schedule, but all this dancing around is giving me the sh*ts.. Strict work to rule would have the company back to the table in a week.. Would also have Anthony Albanese's ear fairly quickly too I assume.
"No unprotected industrial action minister, the members are just being extremely vigilant in their interpretation of the QEPM and ensuring that all regulatory requirements are fulfilled. Safety before schedule".
We operate daily, understaffed, underequipped, minimal spares, minimal ground time for rectification and repair, inadequate IT, the list goes on and on..
We make it work every day. Fu*k 'em..

[Longbow25]

Too smart for yourselves this time lads.

This "action" is nothing short of ridiculous.

[offsked]

I agree... This type of action leaves us looking childish.

If we behave like professional adults, we might be taken seriously.

There are other avenues for keeping the PIA current without disrupting the travelling public.

I should point out that I am a supporter of the ALAEA and I thank the Exec for their work thus far this EBA.

[buttmonkey1]

Will someone please tell the pr!cks at the ALAEA...

you sound like a bit of a pr!ck yourself ken.
agree with ja1 and black hand, had a gutfull of this ****e,
hit 'em with the o/t and hduty but await the execs orders
to time it right. there are interesting synergies right now.
when we do strike, let's go for a knock out blow. :ouch:

[assasin8]

Ah, Ken, the irony of you advising the ALAEA about when exactly it was April Fools' Day is lost on yourself! :p

[Jet-A-One]

We are a laughing stock. I didn't vote fore a left hand only PIA.

[airsupport]

The more I think about this the more I am sure it is CRAZY. :eek:

IF you have a dispute with your Employer and it is getting nowhere, as this one is, most people/travelling Public/QF Customers will understand IF you eventually have stop work meetings and even strikes, especially IF notice is given and preferably NOT in the school holidays.

However NO sane person would be happy with the person/s certifying for the safety of their aircraft purposely misusing their tools. := :uhoh:

[aveng]

Just proves how dextrous you have to be as a L.A.M.E, most guys I know could operate quite normally left or right handed - lets face it access with aeroplanes is not always perfect. Lots of exams, experience, regulations, procedures and deft hand skills - worth more money!!!! :ok:

[K9P]

I'm sure that a surgeon would be thrilled to know that the work he or she does is comparative with that of a spanner-turner! Get real.

Hey Ken

A surgeon only gets to kill one person at a time if he stuffs it up. LOL.

[QFBUSBOY]

I can't believe all the nancy boys posting here.

Some of you who purport to have been LAMEs should know better and that there is no misuse of tools by using your left hand.IF you were in fact a worker and not a pen pusher, you would realise that you need to use your non-dextrous hand occasionally,and that it in no way poses a safety threat.

OW has really got to be kidding if she & AJ really think that this is a safety issue,and yet have told the public that many of the other instances were not.Emergency lighting being stapled was not a safety issue,but using your non-dextrous hand is.

Geez Louise,get a grip on reality you bunch of tools,as this is just a legal technicality that needs to be overcome.

Bring on bans on higher duties, and overtime.Also the techlogs are looking very clean lately with all this extra OSIP work being cleared.Its time to be Green and to green up the place I think.:ok:

[buttmonkey1]

my sentiments exactly, add airsupport to your list ffs,
whoevery sprouts this left hand safety issue bs sure
doesn't use handtools much, or has lost touch.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sitting down for my evening read of Pprune thinking of a quote from Sun Tzu 6th century BC.

All warfare is based on deception.

For the members out there remember early on that we did advise you that some strange things will occur during this campaign.

[airsupport]

Steve,

Obviously I do NOT know what you are up to, however this is NOT a good thing to have in the media.

Scared the sh%t out of my Sister-in-law who was in the process of booking several QF flights to Europe. :eek:

Best regards,

David.

[Jet-A-One]

Couldn't agree more QFBUSBOY. With all the crap that went on last time around, it wasn't until the extra plastic slips were needed to cater for all the extra greenery that they started to take us seriously. Especially when those magic three letters M,E & L started popping up more often...

It's obviously not something the association can instruct (not in writing anyway) but use your initiative and GO GREEN! I think you'll agree, this will help our cause more. Save going left handed for when you need variety w@nking....

[airsupport]

Just had a chat with Steve and it has all fallen into place. :ok:

It appears like there is a good reason for everything that is done. ;) :D

[Jethro Gibbs]

CFMEU They are winners no mucking around with them they take no crap.:ok:

[600ft-lb]

Are we as bad as the people who can't hold attention spans beyond 5 seconds.

It's 2 ! people.

2

TWO

2

TWO PEOPLE

At any time

of their choosing

2

ttt
www
ooo

And yes, there have been plenty of times I've had to use my left hand to do up some obscure nut, even though I'm right handed. Olivia would have me sacked if it weren't a PIA period at the moment.

Get a grip guys. It's a technicality, not a blanket action.

[gobbledock]

Will someone please tell the pr!cks at the ALAEA that April Fools' Day was three and a half months ago and that the citizenry will not be buying their nonsense?
Oh Ken, it seems management has let you up from under their desk for a spot of fresh air ?
Ken, quite simply, pi#s off. You are almost as annoying as Wirthless hair style. You really need to wipe the yogurt off your chin and go back to doing what you do best - being a complete knob in private.

[Romulus]

Obviously I do NOT know what you are up to, however this is NOT a good thing to have in the media.

Scared the sh%t out of my Sister-in-law who was in the process of booking several QF flights to Europe.

and therefore...

a point has been made, a marker laid down, an opponent's strategy disrupted.

Nice move.

[ABAT4t2]

jesus guys mellow out. Nice move Steve, ticks all the boxes.

[Pukka]

From AMT magazine today -


American Airlines Pays Tribute to Elite Mechanics
FORT WORTH, Texas, July 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines is honoring a special group of Aviation Maintenance Technicians (AMTs) for their lifetime achievement of serving five or more decades in the airline industry.
At American's maintenance facilities in Tulsa, Okla., Kansas City, Mo., and Tampa, Fla., the airline paid homage to eight AMTs with the FAA's prestigious Charles E. Taylor "Master Mechanic" Award, which recognizes the lifetime accomplishments of senior mechanics. The award is named in honor of Charles E. Taylor, who worked for the Wright Brothers and was the first aviation mechanic in powered flight. To be eligible for the award, a recipient must have served 50 years as an accredited aviation mechanic and have been an FAA-certified mechanic for a minimum of 30 years.
"American Airlines AMTs are the best of the best, and these gentlemen exemplify our high standards. We commend them for their excellent service over the years," said Jim Ream, American's Senior Vice President – Maintenance & Engineering. "For 50 years, our Master Mechanics have worked tirelessly behind the scenes to ensure the safety of our customers, employees and fleet. They have set a very high bar for future generations of AMTs."




Must be good to work for an organisation that actually respects its staff!!

[airsupport]

my sentiments exactly, add airsupport to your list ffs,
whoevery sprouts this left hand safety issue bs sure
doesn't use handtools much, or has lost touch.

FYI as a working LAME for more than 40 years I have actually used hand tools in both hands, all over the World, although not so much lately as I am retired now.

When I heard of this I was disappointed as I thought it reflected badly on all LAMEs. :(

However, now that I know what is behind it I am fine with it, still think it is a shame it became so public, but there is a VERY GOOD reason behind the tactic, do NOT worry about it. ;) :ok:

[Lean Sigma]

It would be good if all you :{ girls would show a bit more faith in the ALAEA executive.
No good voting for action then bagging the exec every time they are metering the action as they see fit. :ugh:
Just because you don't :confused: understand the action taken doesn't mean it is the wrong action.
Stick together and we will get the required result. :ok:

[blackbook]

10am stop work

[blackbook]

Ok back to work

[Captain Gidday]

For those of you needing left handed tools, a little light relief:Youtube

[Mr Mott]

Sun Tzu also said
"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good".
The constant attack on the brand through these types of tatics will shatter and destroy QF - is that what you all really want?

And yet another quote from Sun Tzu
"If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril".

By taking action that is seen as frivolous by the public you all show ignorance of what QF could do and you show how un professional your Association can be.
For SP to say its all part of a plan is one thing, but I hope it does not lead you all into peril.

[airsupport]

By taking action that is seen as frivolous by the public you all show ignorance of what QF could do and you show how un professional your Association can be.

That is exactly what I thought too. :ok:

Until I found out what is really going on. ;)

[Longbow25]

Two possibilities here:

1. There is something "going on" and if so why not enlighten us?
2. There is nothing "going on" and you simply seek to appear self important?

Which is it do you think?

Until that happens my participation will be limited to those actions I understand or those that have been explained to me.

Blind trust is exactly that - blind.

[BaronB]

Can't wait until we tell them we're only going to use left handed hammers, only replace the spark plugs and muffler bearings on 737s, only use metric adjustable wrenches, only place orders for striped paint and only replace the dehydrated water tanks on 747s ...

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

There is a third option. We might be up to something and couldn't put out a notice because qf might find out what it is.

[ejectx3]

As if post industrial tactics in a public forum

[ABAT4t2]

guys calm down. We have a dispute with our employer, we have been balloted and voted for industrial action. Action will always result in a propaganda war so don't be dumb and fall for the enemies propaganda.

sit tight, hold tight. The enemy will not win as long as we remain united as a union.

[Ngineer]

Can't wait until we tell them we're only going to use left handed hammers, only replace the spark plugs and muffler bearings on 737s, only use metric adjustable wrenches, only place orders for striped paint and only replace the dehydrated water tanks on 747s ...


Yes, thats right. And only use low speed tape (as high speed tape is an exercise of extreme good will). And to the sparkies... don't forget to use non-magnetic flux when soldering, anything more is totally unacceptable in this climate.:ok:

[1me]

I reckon we should all take a Bex and lie down..!

Whilst I may not understand every tactic and decision the executive choose, I support them. I pay them to act in my best interests so publicly second guessing everything they advise me to do is counter-productive. If you seek clarification on something go to a rep and ask the question. Simple.

We need to be measured in our response and be prepared to act as necessary. Coming onto forums and bad mouthing leaders or tactics ultimately harms our cause. Stay the course Ladies and Gents!

And Ken, whilst I may not be a surgeon I reckon I know who ultimately has more responsibility (and just quietly... I bet it's not the surgeon!) Pull your head in old boy.

[Ngineer]

I reckon we should all take a Bex and lie down..!

guys calm down.

There might be a few worked up guys posting on here, but on the floor everyone is cool calm and collected. Funny that...

[1me]

There might be a few worked up guys posting on here, but on the floor everyone is cool calm and collected. Funny that...Yep that's my impression too..

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Funny thing is, I'd bet that 100% of LAMES could use their non-dexterous hand to carry out their work 100% satisfactorily.... but I'd bet that OW, AJ or any of the rest of them would not be able to use a pen with their non-dexterous hand!

I'd ignore the worked up people questioning today's action.... they are most likely not LAME's or they are bitter previous association exec members.

[buttmonkey1]

i reacon the various managers running around checking who
stopped work for 1 minute wasted more time than the entire
amount of lames lost time.
speaking of various managers, would be interesting to see exactly
how many of the new managers, especially ops managers are members
and review the rules particularly...
contravenes or fails to observe any lawful resolution, decision or direction of the
Federal Executive of which he had, or ought to have had notice...

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Anyone from Perth prepared to tell the story of the who-har that went on there today at 1000 AM?

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Oooooh! Did Biff have a hard time in his new home?

[blubak]

Just saw a news item that says a 5.3% wage claim by Qantas engineers will cost the company $430 million over 3 yrs!!
Some quick calculations-divide by 3 for 1 year=$143 million,
2000 engineers system wide,thats $71500 pay rise per lame per year.
Hey Steve,tell the management negotiating committe that we will settle for 2% rise per yr for 3 yrs as long as they use the same calculator that they used to feed the media this crap.
Maybe at the next meeting u can take some batteries along to put in their calculator-with the latest engine failure there might be no funds to cover the cost of new batteries!

[bandit2]

blubak, No offence intended, but I think there is actually 1500 LAME's. Just goes to show the BS that QF is pushing. If they haven't got the common sense to check their calculations before posting them in the press. What hope have we of them actually making a common sense decision when comes to running QF.
eg A330 or 777 ?????????????????:ugh:

[Longbow25]

So what's the worst that you (the Exec) could do even if they did?

Expel them?

Wow that would hurt.

They would save themselves $780 a year and still get the benefits of the EBA if they are covered by it.

[Black Hands]

Any word on what happened in Perth yesterday? Hope you boys are playing nicely with your new toys..
Must be the only port where a 60 second work stoppage could turn into a hoo haa.. :E

[Ngineer]

Just saw a news item that says a 5.3% wage claim by Qantas engineers will cost the company $430 million over 3 yrs!!


Probably the same crap written by the same guys telling the public that our intl business hasn't made any money in 10 years.:ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

5.3% wage claim by Qantas engineers will cost the company $430 million over 3 yrs!!

Just goes to show that Qantas can say anything they like to the press. (If they did indeed say this but I have heard it a few times).

1600 Engineers. Average salary say 100k

1600 x 100,000 = 160,000,000 or 160 mill

Entire wages bill for 3 years is 160 mill x 3 or $480 million

[blackbook]

Yeah I'm sick to death of this corporate bull ****e

[Disengagement]

Re Perth Hoo Har
Made a few calls west ,and appears that one Lame when asked yes or no if he would be taking industrial action replied he had not made up his mind yet . This I am told took their new manager off guard. Then the Lame asked the Manager for a run down on the Company side of the EBA and was told it was all secret and he had no idea about the current EBA. Then when pushed for a yes or no the Lame "took 5":ok: which upset the their new manager to the point the Lame in question reminded the Manager of the Harassment policy :=
Is the Buggery Campaign raising its head again :rolleyes:

[bandit2]

Well Done Perth brothers!!!! Keep the f&$^ers guessing.

[blubak]

Fedsec,
google news QANTAS written by Neil Wilson,Herald Sun,14 july-all the info there about our $460 million dollar claim!!

[up2us]

Fedsec,

Can you let the shareholders(big) and media know the real cost of our claim, (say 100 mill) and then assure them that Qantas will gladley waste the difference in fighting us (ie WASTE 360 mill) when they havn't received a dividend in 2 years. Why aren't the big shareholders pissed off yet?
Even though we have done the right thing by delaying our PIA we should be really ramping up our PR side of things, I am so sick of the corporate rubbish that once we win I will still hate them.

[Roger that.]

Steve. Starting to feel like we've got a hung start here. Come on, we are ready, were waiting for your word to fire this bad boy up. Why? Because we wanna fix the problem. It's a LAME thing.

[Quill Shaft]

Rumour has it that the AIPA have a huge billboard sign up on the M4 in Sydney saying that:

"When you fly a Qantas plane you expect it to be flown by a Qantas pilot"

Maybe the ALAEA should get some up saying:

"When you fly a Qantas plane you expect it to be maintained by a Qantas engineer"

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Disengagement said....
Re Perth Hoo Har......

:ok: That's gold!!!!!!!
Poor new Dick.

[the rim]

A billboard, now that would be new,maybe some stickers as well

[Quill Shaft]

Rim

Bumper stickers are a great idea! A billboard on Qantas Drive would be gold too!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Maybe just a blank Orange billboard would do.

[600ft-lb]

I'm not sure about billboards.

The public don't care until it effects them. All most people care about is $2 tickets. Because there hasn't been a death in high capacity air transport in this country for years.

Action to retain a quality product in spite of temporary managers at the helm before their golden parachute out of the place and also in spite of public demands for $2 1000km trip stupidity should be the top priority.

Just because the latest 'leadership' sees no value in old ways of doing things and good will built up over a generation doesn't mean we should cede it to them. They're still temporary workers, we're not.

[Arnold E]

Maybe just a blank Orange billboard would do.
The people that inhabit this forum would understand that, but most definitely Joe public would not.:=

[Jethro Gibbs]

There is no Good Will left any where in Qantas as soon as this is realized the better.:ok:

[600ft-lb]

Not so much the good will between employee and management groups.

Towers Watson proved that's at a record low and I would struggle to find 1 person where i work that has a single good thing to say about any manager at any level.

I meant the good will - the image of Qantas the public once held - which is getting worse and worse with each engine failure among other things.

[Jethro Gibbs]

As I said NO GOOD WILL its all gone.

[Squeaks]

Another home goal.

Who was the rocket scientist who decided to play "Last Post" on the PA during the One Minute Strike?

It's rating really well in the media this morning, and guess who isn't coming out of the reports as Union of the Year :ugh:


:=

[ACT Crusader]

OUCH!


War veterans have reacted angrily to reports the Last Post was played by Qantas aircraft maintenance engineers at an industrial stop work meeting last week.
Qantas has confirmed engineers taking part in a one-minute strike as part of an ongoing pay dispute played the haunting tune over a public announcement system at a heavy maintenance facility at Tullamarine in Melbourne on Friday morning.
The airline has described the act as a "new low" in the union’s campaign after it last week instructed two right-handed aircraft maintenance workers to use their left hands to perform their work.

Qantas spokesman Luke Enright said the company would launch an investigation into how the Last Post was played on the PA and to find the people responsible.

A caller to radio station 3AW said many Qantas staff were shocked by the decision to play the Last Post at the conclusion of the stop work action.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, which represents the engineers, has not yet responded to the claims.
Victorian President of the Returned and Services League, Major General David McLachlan AO, said he would write a letter to the union to express his outrage over the incident.

He said the families of the 28 Australian soldiers killed in Afghanistan would be horrified to know that the tune — traditionally played at soldiers’ funerals and remembrance ceremonies — had been used insensitively as part of an industrial campaign.
He said people who had recently lost a family member at war would still have the tune ‘‘ringing in their ears’’.
‘‘Just think of all those grieving families... to hear it (was) played as an industrial song is just dreadful,’’ Major General McLachlan told 3AW. ‘‘Please respect the Last Post because it means so much to so many people.’’

The union has imposed a range of work bans and limitations as negotiations with Qantas management over a new enterprise agreement heat up.




Last Post broadcast at Qantas strike a 'new low' (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/last-post-broadcast-at-qantas-strike-a-new-low-20110718-1hkp9.html?from=smh_sb)

[Suck&Blow]

Oh for goodness sake. What a ba!!s up.
Just give us our C.R, and let us get on with our lives!:yuk:

[mcgrath50]

This better be a good plan Steve, because at the moment you are coming off pretty ******* badly after starting from a very strong position! :{

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I don't even know anything about this readers. We wouldn't condone something so stupid. Sounds like a setup to me to take heat off their engine woes.

[TIMA9X]

I am convinced that this topic deserves it's own thread.
Qantas has confirmed engineers taking part in a one-minute strike as part of an ongoing pay dispute played the haunting tune over a public announcement system at a heavy maintenance facility at Tullamarine in Melbourne on Friday morning.
The airline has described the act as a "new low" in the union’s campaign after it last week instructed two right-handed aircraft maintenance workers to use their left hands to perform their work.


Last Post broadcast at Qantas strike a 'new low' (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/last-post-broadcast-at-qantas-strike-a-new-low-20110718-1hkp9.html#ixzz1SPzZGWQE)

I suspect OOh Wirthless spun this up! A new low for the Q corporate affairs department, and this journalist fell for it hook line and sinker, a pretty good example of the quality of some journalists we have to endure.


I doubt any engineer or staff member who heard the playing of this tune at the maintenance facility at Tullamarine even thought about disrespect to our fallen soldiers, in fact I am 100% sure of this, it's UnAustralian unlike A Joyce,
I am disgusted that he would allow whoever spun this up and fed it to the media keep the job.

It is Q Corporate affairs who have sunk to a new low, pure and simple, and Peter Cosgrove should look into these tactics sanctioned by a foreign CEO.
The Qantas brand is more than twice this CEO's age but he is hell bent in destroying it with no emotion attached.

[mcgrath50]

I don't even know anything about this readers. We wouldn't condone something so stupid. Sounds like a setup to me to take heat off their engine woes.

Can I respectfully suggest saying that and launching your own investigation? As I said, you started from a very strong position, especially with Pilots going into bat at the same time, don't let it get away. :D

[What The]

Is it just me or does the caller on 3AW sound familiar? Reading from a very scripted note. Not just a random caller IMHO.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It was 3AW who called me about this today, it appeared on their "rumour" file. No member I have spoken to heard this.

[ozbiggles]

Look I support the QF engineers, bit IF this is true and the left hand vs right hand thing is true they had better look at their tactics, because it makes their campaign lack ANY credibility and look down right immature.
And that will work wonders for management in the PR battle.

[adsyj]

I am happy to hear that Steve.

It is not cool and is not helping with public opinion.

Keep up the good work but play it smart.

[TIMA9X]

And that will work wonders for management in the PR battle.

Yeah, may be, but Q corporate affairs appear the have goofed big time by going so low on this issue. There is a funny side to the left handed thing but not this last post connection to the fallen. It's wrong wrong wrong.

[Longbow25]

Steve

Please investigate this and then state PUBLICLY, what you have found.

If it did happen and our members were at fault they should be expelled, this would show everyone that we are fair dinkum and not a bunch of misguided rabble.

If it didn't happen and we can prove it then say so publicly and set the record straight for all to see.

Our, and more particularly your, credibility is at stake here.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Why give it any more air time than it deserves?

[josephfeatherweight]

I support the QF Engineers - however, if this is true, and as Ozbiggles stated above, in conjunction with this RIDICULOUS left handed thingy, then you guys are fighting an uphill battle in the credibility stakes - appalling if it proves to be case...

ALAEA Fed Sec "Why give it any more air time than it deserves?"

You are not that stupid - because you need to turn your image around - desperately...
I wholeheartedly agree with Longbow25.

(Standing by for confirmation of course, but a tad concerned it may turn out to be true...)

Joe Lighty

[Mr Mott]

Well another example why QF and the travelling public can't take the ALAEA seriously. Even if it was one miss guided individual it just shows how unprofessional the Association has turned into. 1 minute stoppages, lefthand use only, the last post played - when are you the membership going to wake up and demand, that the executive operate in a professional manner. To blame the QF media group and not take responsibility SP shows just how bitter you have become.
Act professionally and you will be treated likewise, act irresponsibly and thats how you will be treated. The public will soon change sides!!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

:{Sounds like a lot of hysterical old women are posting here lately.:{

As if playing the last post is the end of the world. There are far worse things happening in the world every day,and the public are far more concerned about carbon taxes than engineers or pilots trying to keep their jobs in Australia.

I am sure that those who "may" have played the last post,if it is so proved,would apologise sincerely if they offended those with a right to be offended,namely service personnel & families. Most of the posters here have no such right.

It has to be taken in the context with which it was played,the symbolic death of a great company,nothing more,nothing less.

[chockchucker]

F.Y.I. a media crew were scene setting up for what I presume to be back-drop pictures and an 'on site' report outside the Tulla facility at @ 1400hrs this afternoon.


No media organization logo's evident on the vehicle in question. Just blacked out windows and film gear and lighting equipment. Presume somebody may give this non-story a run on TT or ACA?

[josephfeatherweight]

Bug-a-lugs - respectfully, I disagree, and I do meet your "requirements" of those eligible to be offended, though I personally wouldn't claim any special right to be offended.

But that's irrelevant - what is relevant is how the PUBLIC will react to this, and I reckon most won't see it in the same context as you:

"It has to be taken in the context with which it was played,the symbolic death of a great company,nothing more,nothing less."

[buttmonkey1]

we were reminded of Ansetts demise and to observe a minute
silence. harmless way of making light of the 1 minute PIA.
think it was a manager present even suggested the idea.
storm in a teacup

[balance]

Steve:

Why give it any more air time than it deserves?

1. Because if it was a company stooge, then the RSL's fury can be publicly redirected at management.

2. Because you can spin it to say we would never endorse such a practice, but it shows the depth of feeling of our members.

There is a positive in everything. Dont worry about the outraged minority groups, as bug a lugs said, and Joe has observed, even if you were entitled to be offended (and I am - but I'm not!), most would not be.

Keep it bubbling, mate. You are doing a good job. Maybe try and coordinate with AIPA for "co-incidental" PIA.

[TBM-Legend]

So Steve the guy who knows everything about aviation [listen to the ABC etc etc etc] now knows nothing about this disgusting act of denigration of our fallen.

Now wants to blame "unknown" forces.

How convenient.:suspect:

[TIMA9X]

1. Because if it was a company stooge, then the RSL's fury can be publicly redirected at management.

2. Because you can spin it to say we would never endorse such a practice, but it shows the depth of feeling of our members.

There is a positive in everything. Dont worry about the outraged minority groups, as bug a lugs said, and Joe has observed, even if you were entitled to be offended (and I am - but I'm not!), most would not be.

Keep it bubbling, mate. You are doing a good job. Maybe try and coordinate with AIPA for "co-incidental" PIA. Spot on balance & Bug-a-lugs
I will say it again,
I doubt any engineer or staff member who heard the playing of this tune at the maintenance facility at Tullamarine even thought about disrespect to our fallen soldiers, in fact I am 100% sure of this, it's UnAustralian unlike A Joyce,
I am disgusted that he would allow whoever spun this up and fed it to the media keep the job.It was Q who spun this to the media, as balance said
Dont worry about the outraged minority groupsThat's what Wirth or one of her stooges wanted to do, most people would see through this.

Think about it, the last post tune is used all the time to highlight the end of something, it is used all over the world and not exclusive to the Victorian RSL.

Whoever spun this at Q to the media kicked an own goal.
It is my view, arguing with each other on here is allowing Q corporate affairs to get away with it.

Steve P is doing a good job, he is not the blame for this incident whether you agree with the left handed thing or not. They are two separate issues successfully fused together by the Q PR machine, that's what they are paid to do.

Most people on here are engineers or related to the industry that has nothing to do with the PR profession, and this profession is a dirty business. Don't let this be taken out of context, the intention of whoever pumped up the press. Unity please.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

In other news....... Is it legal for a manager to stand down an employee for carrying out protected action... For example, if the employee was using his left hand and that action was approved?

[dubai_don]

Having retired after a great number of years in the industry, many of which were with BA, it saddens me greatly when I see once great airlines being taken to the cleaners by young, modern and efficient carriers be they LCC or full service carriers.
As all of you know, the airline business is hugely costly to operate and margins, generally wafer thin. The successful carriers will optimise profits to reinvest in fuel efficient aircraft, equipment and product enhancements. Since the world aviation market is subject to rapid changes be they natural disasters, war, epidemics etc. etc., an airline must be able to act swiftly to counter these negative threats that impact the bottom line.
What you see is that airlines which do not have unions lording it over the company, are able to implement change quickly and minimise losses as a result. Disasters aside, they are also able to implement commercial changes, impose staff freezes and improve staff productivity to lower their cost base and remain competitive in an ever increasingly competitive aviation environment. Whilst this may seem like an anathema to traditional trade unions who harp on about saving jobs where in fact, they slowly destroy jobs and curb airline expansion and growth which in turn, yes, creates more jobs. This has been a classic case at BA for the past 40 years and I can see this unfolding at QF as well.
There is no place for the old "them and us struggle" but change is needed. No one likes CHANGE, but is has to become a way of life. A better understanding of the long term objectives and the risks associated with them is essential with Unions truly representing the interests of their membership and management working together. If this is not realised, the outsourcing issue will continue. Improved productivity across the board and ongoing efficiency reviews coupled with natural attrition has to become a way of life. Good luck.

[Short_Circuit]

It was Q who spun this to the media True or not, it would not have been out there in the public. If it did happened,
it would have been on highly private, restricted access land that was played in honour of the fallen Brother Airline, Ansett.

[Ngineer]

At least here is something that management and ngineers can agree on. This was definately poor form in my books, or a lapse of respect on someone's part. Still, everyone makes mistakes.

[BaronB]

As if playing the last post is the end of the world. There are far worse things happening in the world every day,and the public are far more concerned about carbon taxes than engineers or pilots trying to keep their jobs in Australia


As someone genuinely interested in a positive outcome to the negotiations, this sort of attitude is slightly concerning. We need to demonstrate that we are genuine and serious about achieving something for us (and for the public) here - playing stupid and immature games should not part of the plan. If we want to project ourselves as professionals, there needs to be a consolidated and consistent effort. Industrial pressure is fine - but at least lets make it proper industrial pressure, not something that is so easy to ridicule in the public. Here's hoping the left handed thing actually has some useful fruit to bear.

[whatdouknow]

Ch9 News Melb 6pm just stated the 'Last Post' was also played over the UHF radio headsets in Sydney as well as the Melbourne PA...

I can not see how this is disrespectful... surely it is more about the way that an Iconic Australain Brand is being destroyed.

Did it happen?? who really thinks it matters... was it endorsed or was it probably just an individual that was in mourning?

Left hand tool use and 1 minute stop works will not make any difference to this fact.

What members of the Aussie public will agree with some/all of the maintenance or pilots jobs going to Malaysia or China? Will they then think the last post being played is appropriate?

[Longbow25]

"More air time than it deserves", surely you have to be joking Steve?

This is a matter of credibility, of public perception, of reputation.

It strikes at the very heart of how we, as an organisation, seek to be portrayed as professionals in the aviation industry.

It's not about who it offended, it's about a standard of conduct that recognises that some things are above reproach and that this one one of those things. Simply trying to counter spin it to place the blame on others (even if it was Q) demeans the organisation even further and damages our cause both professionally and in the eyes of the public.

The reaction doesn't surprise me in the least though as it is yet another example of how those inside the fold so to speak are immune from the standards of behaviour applied to normal people.

I can see this being swept under the rug in the hope that people will forget but for me it marks a sad day in what, until now, has been a savvy and innovative campaign.

This is a poor decision and MUST be acknowledged as such and those that were involved need to be held accountable if we are to be seen as the professionals we claim to be.

That having been said I won't hold my breath waiting for any signs of morality from an organisation that has sadly now, turned the corner in this dispute.

:=:=:=:=

[BaronB]

This is a matter of credibility, of public perception, of reputation.

It strikes at the very heart of how we, as an organisation, seek to be portrayed as professionals in the aviation industry.



Hear, hear.

[Cargo744]

Longbow... You are absolutely correct. I am not effected by this but i hate to see Ozzy jobs go overseas especially from an iconic company such as QF. If you want to be taken seriously, act seriously. Juvenile games such as the left handed stupidity and shots in the foot like this last post fiasco will only harm what you are trying to do. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Clipped]

Longbow and Baron

At least try to not sound like Q management.

No matter how hard you try to sway readers on this forum, your union bashing diatribe is too blatantly obvious.

Buzz off fools.

If the Last Post was played .. a mistake. Sprayed all over the media all day, Q spinning it with their media muscle. Just like the full page 'we're safe' ads for a week. Who is reaching a 'new low'?

[mcgrath50]

The point is clipped, it's made it easy for management to spin things in a bad way, the last post is sacred, rightly or wrongly.

I am curious though that Steve says no one in Melbourne heard this?

[Jetro6UL]

Must be a fkn slow news day if this gets last post crap gets a guernsey.

I've lost relatives in wars, and I'm ex-military myself. I would not have been offended.

That said, the death of Qantas as we know it is nigh and someone ought to write a tune to play at it's demise.

[Longbow25]

:ugh:

I certainly pay my dues every fortnight which at least entitles me to an opinion whether or not you agree with it.

It's a simple thing to brand any opinion that you disagree with as being that of a QF Manager but in my case that's certainly not correct.

Think what you will, this latest action is the stuff of fools.

Not only do you make their ammunition for them now you are firing it at your own people.

Smart move!

And these are the same people who seek to be considered "professional", I think they have a way to go yet.


http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6578384&noquote=1)

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Geez...... Moving on...... Bigger issues to worry about.
Longbow..... Get over yourself. You are carrying on like the ALAEA hacked the PA and played the last post (if it even happened that is).

[TIMA9X]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cewM_N17sqw/TiPxv_oZk8I/AAAAAAAABD4/nCCQ62efuqM/4-1-save-our-Qantas.jpg

[cart_elevator]

Even if it offends only 5% of the public by sounding the Last Post during your stop-work meeting-that is 5% of the public that is now not compassionate to your cause. Most people wont be compassionate to your cause, so offending anyone is not the right way to go.

IMHO if it did happen, it is really poor form (regardless of who put it out in the press). You cannot compare industrial relations to the loss of life at war.
The union needs to educate it's members of the state-of-play in regards to public perception. This could be the 'sample' case against the phrase 'any publicity is good publicity'. :=

[the rim]

good to see the founders out at Longreach .....glad it was set up so OUR grand kids might be able to see a Qantas Aircraft.......and listen to the great things that this once great company did for Aviation....the rim

[whatdouknow]

Surely Qantas will still be around... even if it is spelt in Chinese!

[ampclamp]

Long bow I'm glad you are not on jury duty. Resign on rumour ?

IF it happened it was not an ALAEA action IF it happened. One person out of >1000 and you'll resign. Give me a break.

Talk about beat up. I hear the last post [played badly] at cricket matches footy etc. Where's the outrage there ?
Sounds like a set up or one silly person and then it gets beaten up
I say prove it first. Then wring your hands. And for record both my grand father and father were vets. My grandfather an original ANZAC my dad in SE Asia in WWII. If its true its silly but remains bull$!& until proven otherwise. Get a grip girls.

[Cargo744]

Talk about beat up. I hear the last post [played badly] at cricket matches footy etc. Where's the outrage there ?

Amp... It's only played during ANZAC games as a tribute not a cheap Union stunt and is played by ADF personnel. If you think they play it "badly":ugh: i suggest your contact the Army, Navy or Air Force.

[ampclamp]

OH ffs 744 , Did I say played badly in any official context ? I know it is only played at anzac tests OFFICIALLY. Played badly by some **** with a smuggled in bugle or trumpet.
People laugh roll their eyes get on with the game. No 3AW outrage calls no RSL sabre rattling. But when an allegation is raised and made public on a yet to proven issue it gets beaten to bits.
Here's some head banging in return:ugh:
The union is not responsible for the action of every member if it happened, if it was a member.

[Sunfish]

Wanking trolls about "The Last Post". I had lunch with a mate at the Williamstown RSL today.

No offence taken that I could see. Posters advertising "the Black Sorrows" and Jimmy Barnes on the notice boards.

"The Last Post" is played every night on military bases. It has no "sacred" meaning apart from "Shut the Fcuk up and go to sleep".

Reveille has a similar non meaning. I remember being woke up by the ground wave of a pound of TNT that was detonated about Ten seconds after Reveille at Engineers camps.

[Cargo744]

Umm Amp... should probably try and make it clearer what you are actually talking about then. I would go head butt your Union at the moment. The circus acts are not doing any of you any good. And before you call me a QF Manager (which i am far from) consider this... If i were i would encourage your current actions.

[ampclamp]

Perhaps you in return should be able to prove it "a cheap union stunt?"
And not jump to conclusions and make assumptions.

[Cactusjack]

The Last Post should sound out resolutely every time that Worthless and that 'homeless woman' hairstyle grace the TV screen !! That hairstyle is the epitome of a 'lost cause', the reflection of a hairstyle that has run it's race, cannot be saved and has passed away.
R.I.P

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sorry all been at meetings all arvo and just got the last kid to bed. Time for a few emails and to check in on Pprune. I think there are a few different opinions about today's press stunt. I have my opinion too which I am happy to state but as the union Secretary I can say that it is disappointing that anyone would assume that our union has anythng to do with this. It's unfair to term something like you have Cargo744 by saying you would headbutt our union at the moment. Our union has no knoweldge of this event.

From my own perspective, I would be absolutely disgusted if any of our members played the last post during a work stoppage. RSL permission would be required to play it anywhere and I think it is appropriate at the footy because the day is endorsed by the RSL. The ANZAC day match teaches our kids about the history of our country, all those fine young blokes who gave their lives so we can have what we do today.

Our last original WW1 digger died 2 years ago, he was honoured in Parliment by the Prime Minister. His grandson was ALAEA Vice Preident Wesley Bell. Qantas would not allow Wesley to go to his Grandfathers funeral without dropping pay becasue of a dispute about how bereavement leave is applied. They don't care about the last post being played or our heritaige. They are just greedy opportunists, if it even was played, the PA mics at Tulla are in manager's offices.

So why wouldn't I run around all day defending this rubbish? Becasue it would then be on air twice as long. Qantas can feel like they are making headway by having a great day in the press and congrats to all involved, the spokesmodel, Neil Mitchell, Alan, Tony and the team. Maybe they should be looking after business instead. I hear the engine that failed on the weekend with the Sprinboks onboard was over it's maximum number of allowable cycles before maintenance and that very special mod it required. Anyone care to ring 3AW tomorrow with a rumour that JL required an engine change after 420 cycles however it blew up one hour out of J'Burg on cycle number 431?

[DirectAnywhere]

JL required an engine change after 420 cycles however it blew up one hour out of J'Burg on cycle number 431?

Are you serious? That's a pretty serious accusation and a major screw up if it's true.

Either the ALAEA or Qantas media will be having a good day tomorrow. It might also rattle CASA's cage too.

[ABAT4t2]

I'll be honest I am bloody angry at the amount of knockers turning up trying to undermine the current struggle. I am however extremely ******* angry now I have heard about the Wesley Bell situation.

If time you greed ridden anti union morons woke up.

[ACT Crusader]

BrissySparky asked:

In other news....... Is it legal for a manager to stand down an employee for carrying out protected action... For example, if the employee was using his left hand and that action was approved?

An employer can effectively refuse to accept the work of an employee when an employee is participating in a PIA ban. The employee must be notified in writing though.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Thanks ACT Crusader. You're correct! Have just had a look at the Fair Work Act 2009....

Fair Work Act 2009 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2011C00444/Html/Text#_Toc296435100)

Notice requirements—employer response action

(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:

(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and
(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.

[ACT Crusader]

Hey Brissy, there's also a section in the Fair Work Act that deals with bans.

Fair Work Act 2009 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2011C00444/Html/Text#_Toc296435174)


(4) If:
(a) an employee engaged, or engages, in protected industrial action against an employer on a day; and
(b) the industrial action is a partial work ban; and
(c) the employer gives to the employee a written notice stating that, because of the ban:
(i) the employee will not be entitled to any payments; and
(ii) the employer refuses to accept the performance of any work by the employee until the employee is prepared to perform all of his or her normal duties;

then the employee is not entitled to any payments in relation to the period (the industrial action period) referred to in subsection (5).

[ACT Crusader]

There's more press on the Last Post episode

Outrage over union's Last Post gaffe | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/rsl-furious-at-qantas-unions-last-post-insult/story-e6frf7jo-1226097122473)

It isn't any clearer though if the incident occurred.

I'm somewhat baffled at the standard of the reporting on this though. The report below mentions pilots, two union reps standing and all during a Fair Work Australia hearing....

Proceedings took a turn toward the surreal during the latest round of negotiations between pilots at Qantas and officials from the airline, with two union representatives standing to observe a minute’s silence while the Last Post was played.

The incident, which occurred during a Fair Work Australia hearing earlier, was branded a “new low” by the furious airline.

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/qantas-strike-threat-becoming-surreal/

[BaronB]

whether it's the union or not, my only point has ever been that it just doesn't reflect well on our professionalism and public perception IF these shenanigans have gone on.
SP has confirmed he and the union know nothing about it - which is a relief to hear.
as always, nice to know that a different view gets you immediately branded as a 'union basher' ... glad cooler heads (thanks SP) have prevailed.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Just seen that Doug M has been given the punt.

Somebody here predicted this a few weeks back,and was right on the money.:D

[POT100]

If true that is awesome news!!...3 years too late, but awesome nevertheless..

Now they just need to get rid of AJ & Co and then start the long process of rebuilding this great airline once again!!!! :ok:

[Syd eng]

Is certainly good news. How someone with no people skills could be Head of People always had me scratching my head.

[buttmonkey1]

this is not news though just announced today.
he was gone 3 weeks ago,
good riddence

[Short_Circuit]

And then came Keith:ugh:

[howyoulikethat]

Sorry BM1,the club buggery campaign is just startin out.....who do you think smashed our HM brothers.....a world of hurt!
Lock and load boys and girls its gonna get interesting...:suspect:

[legacy LAME]

g,day bugalugs
Good to hear from you.
great news about DM
his past caught up with him.
Hopefully KC WILL BE NEXT
No more ACS for me

[whatdouknow]

Very interesting...

as per Fed Sec's rumour suggestion... "Anyone care to ring 3AW tomorrow with a rumour that JL required an engine change after 420 cycles however it blew up one hour out of J'Burg on cycle number 431?"

So will we see this in the Media tomorrow? Need someone with the ability to make this happen... and see if OW can make that not a Safety issue.

I think most people think CASA will only care if it is 'another' Airline.

Do we know what engine number lit up the sky?

[Bigdog01]

Just a big thank you to all staff in Brisbane over the last 20+ years.
Sharing H2 over many nights and trying to work together when company schedules too much work - not that they would ever admit to such a thing.
QF execs seem determined to extinguish the shining light which is a LAME with integrity. Who takes it upon himself to ensure the aircraft will get the paying public from Point A to B in the safest way possible. Also the highly trained crew who if something unforseen happens has the required level of experience and training to continue the proud reputation currently held by Q.

Something that has been built up by all past and present employees over many years of dedication and hard work. Something the new CEO will never have as a fly in bonus out type short term contract !

Once again thank you for your friendship and I wish you all the best in keeping the bastards honest.
Redundant Sunnie bunny.

[buttmonkey1]

all the best bigdog1,
moving on or retiring, the real loser is the assclowns at sunstate
and your services they will come to regret losing.
hoping fedsec's adverse action claims on them come to fruition.
i'm sure most qf lames are supporting SP on this.

['holic]

Hey guys,
Just saw AJ on the ABC news talking about getting rid of the dispatching engineer on aircraft transits. Apparently it's "Worlds Best Practice" and modern aircraft don't need them.

Hey, let's see how far and how fast we can push every boundary of the operation, all at the same time. And just for fun, we won't do any risk analysis.

[gruntyfen]

quoted from the article in aviation business.

"...over 50% of our domestic fleet are new generation aircraft. They do not require the same degree of intensive, repetitive maintenance... This therefore makes redundant the current practice that a highly specialized licensed engineer should receive and dispatch each aircraft."

Aviation Business: Qantas CEO puts the airline's future on the line (http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/news/qantas-ceo-puts-the-airline-s-future-on-the-line)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

After today's announcement I am thinking that people will understand what we are up against.

[Syd eng]

So has there been anything about the fact that they plan to make some of us redundant at the EA meetings? Numbers and where from. It sounds as if he is working towards total outsourcing of all line maintenance. As he said they don't need it any longer, aircraft are too modern.

Also in the piece about Marlin he basically said we will work on the planes from laptops, does he want us to just write all defects off without any real work.

I remember hearing stories of when maintenex was in training and one of the guys started to sign off packages on a an aircraft not even on Australia instead of the training dummy aircraft.

I wonder how surprised they will be when the lines to leave are longer than those who wish to stay!

[buttmonkey1]

i wish joyce would stop talking like he has any idea of
whats involved in maintaining aircraft.
sounds like it's as simple as changing the beemers servicing
to k-mart or ultratune, calling nrma for a flat tyre.
one can only presume nassenstein is behind this latest plan,
quiet one isn't he, we have been expecting it.
gloves are off fedsec.
i say again, o/t and higher duties bans.

[blackbook]

GH and MT Lame On Demand lies lies lies. No wonder when you ask us to move forward with a warm fuzzy feeling given by Qantas we don't trust you.

[ANCDU]

"...over 50% of our domestic fleet are new generation aircraft. They do not require the same degree of intensive, repetitive maintenance... This therefore makes redundant the current practice that a highly specialized licensed engineer should receive and dispatch each aircraft."

What about the other 50%.........maybe you should hop out of the J* office AJ and actually thank the engineers for keeping the old girls in the air......remember Qantas domestic is the most profitable part of the airline "group" at the moment, would be a pity if 50% of that fleet couldn't fly!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

20 July 2011
The process of globalisation has been around for many years.
It continues to change our world in profound ways.
Globalisation is still energising and connecting markets, business and people.
It is still changing the ways we work, consume, and engage as citizens.
And it is still driving relentless competition.
Globalisation is not optional and it is not over.
Today I want to talk about three realities of globalisation. They are profoundly important to all of us with an interest in aviation in our region.
They are:
First, new markets
Second, new business models, and
Third, new technologies.
Qantas today is Australia’s great regional, national and international airline with a long and proud history of leading change.
Now we have an historic opportunity - and a competitive necessity - to make the next great transition.
On 24 August I will announce the details of the strategic renewal of Qantas International. Our review process is based upon four pillars: continuing to be Australia’s leading premium international airline; a strengthened focus on alliances; a review of non-performing parts of the business; and participation in the Asian opportunity.
This announcement will signal the beginning of the phased transformation of Qantas over the coming years.
Change is always tough. But the competitive challenges we face make major change essential, and our commitment to the change process is absolute.
I have every confidence in the outcomes we will achieve.
I believe we have a major opportunity to go beyond the natural limitations of our market size and geography, to become a champion Australian company in a globalised region and world.
That is how we will be the Qantas for our times – and fulfil our commitment to our customers, our shareholders, our staff, and all Australians who care about Qantas.
1
1) New Markets
So let me start with new markets, which of course means Asia, and particularly China.
Our region is central to Australia’s future, the future of aviation, and the future of the Qantas Group.
The Asia-Pacific is already the world’s largest aviation region as measured by revenue passenger kilometres, and is set to grow faster than any other part of the world.
It already has seven of the world’s top 20 airports by capacity.
By 2020, seven of the word’s top ten biggest cities will be in Asia. Within 25 years, urban populations in Asia will hold more than 2.6 billion people, with all that implies for wealth and consumption patterns.
Japan will remain very important, and China will still be transforming.
By 2020, China will have 15 cities with bigger populations than Sydney.
By 2030 China expects to have at least three globally recognised international air hubs, 10 national and regional hubs, and at least 244 airports.
There is also strong growth in India, Vietnam, and South East Asia.
The Qantas Group is already positioning itself to emerge as a major player in tandem with this increasingly prosperous and globalised Asia.
Jetstar is Asia’s largest and fastest growing low fares network, an amazing achievement for an Australian airline.
Jetstar was the first Australian company to break into the top 100 brands in Japan.
It hasn’t all been easy, of course, and lessons have been learned along the way.
But if you want to understand China’s emerging business and tourism hotspots, you have only to track the expansion of the Jetstar network, with Ningbo and Beijing the latest additions.
Which raises the question: Is there an opportunity awaiting Qantas in Asia?
The answer is yes. We have an enormous opportunity to leverage Qantas excellence in brand management, aviation safety, and other skills.
Research on affluent Chinese travellers, for example, shows they are strongly influenced by prestige brands and considerations of safety.
So there is certainly a place for Qantas in the new markets of Asia and we would be remiss not to seize it - to support Australian companies and to find new sources of revenue and profit for our business.
2
2) New business models
Let me turn to the second reality.
In 2010, the then Director General of IATA, Giovanni Bisignani, outlined a vision of a globalised aviation industry in 2050, stating that aviation would be a consolidated industry of just a dozen global brands supported by regional and niche players.
We are still a long way from those open skies. But if we want Qantas to join the elite group of companies of the future, we need to position ourselves today. And the way to do this is via new business models that capture new markets, build regional and global networks, and anticipate the globalised aviation future.
That’s what we are focusing on at the Qantas Group.
In 1995 Qantas formed a joint services agreement with British Airways. It was unique at the time – now the model is increasingly popular, not least among our competitors. We are also in the process of forming a joint services agreement with American Airlines, and we are looking at further opportunities to use close partnerships to extend our global reach.
In 1999 we became a founding member of oneworld. Now including Malaysian Airlines, oneworld today spans 950 destinations in almost 150 countries.
As I’ve said, the Jetstar brand is already a leader with its unique franchise model.
We see continuing opportunities for the Jetstar model, and lessons to be learned for Qantas. I want to see both our airline brands maximising their global potential.
Finally there is our Frequent Flyer business which is now among the most successful loyalty programs in the world. It, too, is a business model that can be replicated in other markets.
The next phase is likely to see even deeper alliance partnerships and further joint ventures to share risk and reward.
As you know, we are now in negotiations with a number of unions. But some union leaders are simply out of touch and trying to block our use of new business models.
The pilots’ union, AIPA, for example, believes that pilots on Qantas affiliate airlines, including Jetstar, should be paid the same very high rates as Qantas pilots, or else Qantas should remove codeshares from Jetstar. Neither option makes sense. To pay Qantas rates to Jetstar pilots would simply drive up ticket prices, set precedents for other staff salaries, and make Jetstar unviable. To remove Jetstar from the Qantas codeshare regime would weaken the Qantas Group network and destroy jobs.
3) New technologies
Finally let me turn to new technologies, which have always been at the heart of global aviation progress and competition.
We know that at Qantas, which is why we commit ourselves to next generation technologies - from our revolutionary new check-in system to the latest fleet. But we can only justify these investments if we can fully maximise their benefits.
3
Take our maintenance and repair practices. The ALAEA is the union that represents our licensed engineers, and about 30 per cent of our engineering workforce of 5,500 people in Australia. We are asking them to understand the simple logic that new technologies require new work practices.
When we introduced our new check-in systems our airport staff accepted the need for change and for us to do things differently, and better. We think our maintenance staff should do the same.
Less than a month ago Australia’s Civil Aviation Safety Authority issued new aviation maintenance regulations that bring Australia into line with European standards and global best practice. This is a major achievement and CASA is to be congratulated.
These new regulations represent the biggest regulatory reform to aviation maintenance since an orderly regime began to take shape after World War One.
They are simpler, unambiguous and focused on safety outcomes rather than narrow proscriptions. They recognise the enormous advances in aviation technologies, in particular the sophisticated information, material and design technologies that underpin new aircraft types. And they are a huge step forward for aviation safety.
At Qantas it is now up to us to catch up with world’s best practice as embodied in the new regulations.
And that is exactly what we are doing. In two days we go live with Project Marlin, our new airworthiness control system.
Project Marlin cost more than we wanted and took longer than we liked. But this is the largest and most complex IT project Qantas Engineering has ever implemented, and we were always going to make sure we got it exactly right.
Put simply, Project Marlin means that we can look at a sophisticated database and get an instant update on the maintenance past, present and future of any one of our aircraft, anywhere in the world. It means our engineers can use mobile devices like laptops and iPads while they work on aircraft to obtain maintenance instructions, locate and order spare parts, and certify their work.
We will commence with our A380s and progressively phase in the rest of our fleet.
Marlin represents the biggest improvement in our maintenance systems since record-keeping began. It is all about work that is safer, smarter and simpler - and compliant with global standards of excellence.
More broadly, Qantas is spending billions on next generation aircraft with advanced computer systems linked to ground systems to enable the detailed monitoring of aviation performance in real time.
The vast majority of the people within our business have helped us to maximise the capabilities of these aircraft in terms of fuel-efficient flying techniques, and new product and service offerings.
But our maintenance and repair costs are among the least efficient and most expensive in the world.
4
So it’s time to catch up. We don’t repair our cars the same way we did 40 years ago. We can’t repair our planes the same way either. We can - and we will - be safer, smarter and more efficient.
Take an example from history. The early B747 ‘Classics’ had a Flight Engineer in the cockpit with switches, dials and analogue processing systems. With the B747-400s came digital processing that monitored, and in some cases automatically corrected, aircraft performance or else advised the pilots how to respond. It was a step-change improvement and Flight Engineers were no longer required in the cockpit.
New technologies, new ways of doing things.
Let me give you some examples of the opportunities to update work practices afforded by CASA’s new regulatory regime.
The CASA rules have created a new category of work licence for employees, known as an ‘A’ licence. Holders of ‘A’ licences need to be suitably qualified, but do not require the same degree of training and specialisation as our licensed engineers.
This means we can retain our licensed engineers in their specialist roles, and provide new opportunities for other maintenance staff.
This will comply with CASA’s regulations, ensure we catch up with the international standard, and also create new career opportunities for a significant number of our people. This will certainly help close the gap on our global competitiveness.
Or take another example, this time specifically in reference to our domestic fleet. Like old-technology cars, old-technology aircraft require more maintenance, more often. So with those older generation aircraft we conduct a maintenance check between each aircraft’s arrival and take-off.
But today over 50% of our domestic fleet are new generation aircraft. They do not require the same degree of intensive, repetitive maintenance.
With these aircraft, pre-take-off maintenance checks are not required for most departures. The operating pilots will continue to undertake physical checks, as they do for all departures.
This therefore makes redundant the current practice that a highly specialised licensed engineer should receive and despatch each aircraft. Again this will help us catch up with global best practice.
Globalisation requires change. We can’t just change a few parts of our business, we have to make every part of our business efficient and in touch with the new realities.
Our engineering and maintenance organisation is central to Qantas getting the most out of new generation aircraft.
We must all adapt to deliver both safety and competitiveness.
Conclusion
Let me conclude. The Qantas Group is among the world’s top aviation companies, with two powerhouse brands: Qantas, one of the world’s top ten premium carriers, and Jetstar, the fastest growing low cost carrier in Asia.
5 6
But our survival and success is far from guaranteed. As I said before, globalisation is not optional. Nor is it selective.
All of us at Qantas have to be creative, flexible and ready to comply with the new global standards.
We come from a relatively small home market, that is not a major global destination. We have no global hub ports. And we’re not backed by government.
We’ve got this far by being true to our core values - our commitment to safety first, premium care, forward thinking, and representing the best of Australia.
We’ve been punching above our weight for a long time.
To secure our future, we must face up to the new global realities, seize new opportunities, and make the external and internal changes that will enable us to compete effectively.
It is not about making change for its own sake. It’s about change that will create a strong, viable future for Australia’s Qantas.
My goal is to ensure the Qantas Group is positioned over the coming years to be a great Australian success story of globalisation – a champion Australian airline group in a global world.
By facing the realities of globalisation, and by embracing its opportunities, we will succeed.

[Kiwiconehead]

World's cheapest practice

[str022]

Vietnamese iced coffee, also known as Ca phe da or cafe da (Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language): cà phê đá, literally "coffee ice") is a traditional Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_cuisine) coffee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee) recipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recipe).
"Vietnamese iced coffee with milk", also known as ca phe sua da or cà phê sữa đá It is also called ca phe nau da (Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language): cà phê nâu đá, "iced brown coffee") in northern Vietnam.
At its simplest, Ca phe da is made with finely ground Vietnamese-grown dark roast coffee individually brewed with a small metal French drip filter (cà phê phin) into a cup containing about a quarter to a half as much sweetened condensed milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk), stirred and poured over ice.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Ken Borough]

i wish joyce would stop talking like he has any idea of whats involved in maintaining aircraft.

Sure thing. I guess Alan Joyce would like ignorami to stop telling him how to be the CEO of an airline. :=

[Jethro Gibbs]

Now hearing tulla workshops some or all may be moving to Avalon .

[Bootstrap1]

I think you might be right mcclown. Change is inevitable and has been for a few years now, but stop drip feeding us crap and let us know what is going on.
But I will say Joyce has rocks in his head about newer aircraft needing less work. Engine dramas aside, you can't throw enough manpower at the 380. And I reckon the 787 will be just as bad.
And if Jokestar can't handle all of the 330 work they so dearly wanted how will they introduce the 787 without big brothers assistance.

[Oldmate]

We’ve got this far by being true to our core values - our commitment to safety first, premium care, forward thinking, and representing the best of Australia.

You start doing these things Alan, then come and talk to us about any changes you'd like to make.

[blackhander]

Typical of qantas 'management' to make these statements in a speech without any clarifications to those that it affects. Sunfish's comments about narcissism make more and more sense all the time.

[Jet-A-One]

Shut the gate, the horse has bolted. We are screwed!

Redundancies are a certain and soon. It's just a matter of how many.

"LAME on demand" on domestic ramps, No customer contracts on international ramps, 380 and 744 A Checks in LAX, Winding down Tulla hangars, new aircraft that fix themselves, A licences, etc. These are only a few ways of reducing the number of LAMEs. They'll come up with more if we keep pushing for the "job security clauses".

Job security in an EBA is unachievable.

Negotiating the right sweeteners to get their current 3+3+3 deal over the line is the only thing that will keep some of us in a job. Or they'll sack us all...

[whatdouknow]

No wonder everyone I know thinks you are a knob AJ....

sounds like the biggest load of cost cutting dribble

must want to get kicked out so he take his millions with him

[1me]

Sure thing. I guess Alan Joyce would like ignorami to stop telling him how to be the CEO of an airline. :=Ken, let's get one thing straight.. AJ is not acting like the CEO of a respected airline, he's more akin to a liquidator. For him to run the airline well he needs to understand the dynamics of the business. He clearly does not.
To quote the man himself: "Our engineering and maintenance organisation is central to Qantas getting the most out of new generation aircraft."

This is a true statement but belies the fact that Joyce has absolutely no idea of what is involved with maintaining aircraft. Much of the dross he spouts about maintenance and 'New Generation" aircraft is simply that; dross!


Why does the rest of the world do it the EASA way and we dont like it in this country?

Right or wrong, why is it no good for Australia?hcmcmcclown; just because the rest of the world do something a certain way does NOT mean that it is necessarily the best way. Blindly following what everyone else does because some boffin deems it "world's best practice" is short sighted and failure prone at best.

The way we do it here in Australia has served us well for many a long year. Change can be a good thing if done constructively, however, change for change's sake bears an ill wind.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Have to Agree with Jet A One

Shut the gate, the horse has bolted. We are screwed!

Redundancies are a certain and soon. It's just a matter of how many and how soon

:ok:

[legacy LAME]

I have nothing against change
I do however have something against change that is implemented
by a management system that is bonus based.
Meaning that if I save a dollar here i will get a percentage myself.
So now my short front end savings have massive back end costs.
Now at this point everyone should have a little think
I am sure you all have countless examples

here is a few of mine
- lets buy A330's and put single serve galleys in the long range -200's
A 90 million dollar rectification
-lets buy the A380
hugely labour intensive, slow , unreliable inefficient and requires massive infrastructure upgrades to existing terminals ramp and hangar facilities.
- We have no money so instead of getting our A380's with standard interior lets give heaps of money to ACP to spend on Mark newson designed interiors
- lets not buy old technology 777.
because they are hugely reliable and extremely efficient
-lets close heavy maint in syd and sack all the ame's then cry about
the lame / ame ratio
- lets outsource all our engine overhauls. Didn't the last engine only make 8 cycles before blowing up into perth. How many engines have let go lately?
A lot more than budgeted for I would say
The list just goes on and on and all justified buy Qf,s bogus accounting system
- lets get all the staff offside because that will make us more efficiant

So CN when you were going on with all that dribble in leading edge about
nokia having market share and iphone coming along BLAH BLAH
Mate, no one is scared of change. We are scared of change that
our esteemed management come up with because they always manage to f**k
it up
I would like to point out that as much as you try to blame the LAME'e
for all your woes that it was QF management that implemented all
of this.
Every time you have a restructure all you do is create another level of management!
I don't know what to do! I know , lets create another management position!

I very much doubt that AJ really knows what is going on because there are that many levels of **** filters between him and the floor.

The really sad part is that with some foresight and a management team that
was not driven by personal gain and there own agenda's QANTAS would
be a whole lot better off
Yeah I am scared of your change

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I see Alan has instructed the trolls to get on here to spread as much FUD (fear, uncertaintly and doubt) as possible this evening. They are just trying to incite reaction and I think you will find we are more controlled than that. They want us to take destructive PIA whilst the Tiger situation remains unresolved. They may just have to wait a bit longer to see what we have planned.