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11th May 2011, 10:04
Deja vu of DC last PIA

Quill Shaft
11th May 2011, 11:32
Extract from article in today's Australian by Steve Creedy.

Meanwhile, Qantas is expected to move some Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 line maintenance offshore to Los Angeles and contract out other work to Melbourne-based John Holland Aviation Services if the dispute intensifies.

Mr Purvinas said the union was aware of the plans but Qantas "was having a lend of itself" if it thought it could cover the work normally done by licensed engineers.

The Black Panther
11th May 2011, 11:36
I have given up on QF management they are a disgrace, from the lower levels full of bullies and liars. We see a GM who was never around on Saturday's choosing to play cricket instead of working with his peers and do his share. The upper levels have now been filled with union bashers with CV's of failed airlines. The lower levels seems to be populated with cigar smokers.

Ben Sandilands writes another great article on the decision that will likely be the one of last few nails in the coffin of the iconic airline.

Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)

We see the writing on the wall as AJ and his team with all the rhetoric will deliver the final blows to see the majority of our industry move off-shore. The expansion of Jetstar Asia, the demise of a lucrative advantage of the Pacific and Kangaroo routes, old and worn out 747s, lies and more lies, A330 hyundai's of the sky, a bad choice of IFE, safety incident after safety incident, the closing of SYD HM resulting in escalating engine incidents, lies and more lies, a $150mil PAI to save $5mil in wages, a campaign of bullying and disregard of employees, court cases for similar actions on engineers, more recent lies to the media (again) about wages, the erosion of pilot standards, cheap under skilled alternatives.....I could go on, we all could add to this list.

We would just want one CEO, one person one board member with an ethical backbone to explain why why why why go down this path in the country of opportunities. Immigrants feeling a country have a number one choice; that is Australia and these inept managers continue to move wage costs and the aircraft maintenance industry off-shore, they have the audacity to put a Wallabies promotion on a Qantas 737 jet, flown by pilots and cabin crew in Qantas uniforms but agrue they are not Qantas employees nor the Aircraft is Qantas all in an exercise not to give an aussie pilot a job.

It has got to a point now where I don't dislike the QF management I actually feel sorry for these knuckleheads. I pondered what the next wave of management would be like after the GD era but this team is embarassing. Two-faced dunderheads.

I have no confidence in any QF manager and doubt we can pull out of this dive. They can have their Jetstar model, they can their Jet Connect model, they can have their off-shore MRO's, they can have the RR Gold Card, I've had a gutful. ETD just bought forward.

Borghetti, it's all yours.

11th May 2011, 22:20
I think Its quite clear what QF is doing - attempting to claim its an Australian Airline, while staffing its aircraft with cheap foreigners based overseas.

All I can say is that the Board is taking a suicidally risky brand strategy.

I would imagine that VB and other airlines are already planning advertising campaigns that have the capacity to devastate the Qantas brand by calling into question its Australian - ness..

The theme are these:

Who is driving your aircraft? When you fly Virgin Australia you can be sure your pilot is a committed Australian professional that we have hired for life, not just a contractor.

Who is maintaining your aircraft? All Virgin aircraft are maintained in Australia by Australians.

Who is crewing your aircraft?.....

Don't let the painted on Australian flag fool you, there is only ONE Australian Airline.

Subsidiary ads could focus on each of those aspects - theme called "Home grown".

For example run an ad with a series of cameos of a young dusty kid flying a Cessna in the outback, then moving to a bigger aircraft, maybe RFDS, then in a VB training environment and finally in the LHS of a VB aircraft.

Mechanics starts with a cameo with a little kid messing with the engine of a Holden.......ending up with a CFm56.... you know the drill.

If something like that took off, then the Qantas brand is toast.

Hey this is advertising, don't confuse me with facts.

11th May 2011, 23:17
What a load of crap Sunfish!

Playing the Devil's advocate here - QANTAS is trying to compete with the likes of V Australia, whose maintenance base is in LAX, with SIAECUSA - look them up...
In actual fact, QANTAS could potentially have their B744's and A380's main Line Maintenance base in LAX tomorrow, if they choosed to use SIAECUSA, as that company is already an FAA approved repair station for those types. Remember guys, as far as CASA is concerned, VH registered aircraft can be maintained by any approved Contracting State. Doesn't have to be in Australia.

12th May 2011, 00:14
How about the Qld regional group, this was the starting point.
A very profitable arm in the big picture, doing what Qantas started out doing.
That is providing grass routes service to the outback communities.
Staff dared to ask for more money. The manpower had not been increased significantly for nearly 10 years although aircraft numbers had increased by 23 airframes. Only 8 retired in that time.
The engineers concerned had to put up with a complete lack of engineering management skills. Bring in a new aircraft and progressively build up equipment over 2 to 3 years after they get here. Case in point engine stands to allow maintenance on the engines 2 1/2 years after arrival we got dedicated stands for the Q400.
They are now spending $18K per month on security guards in H2. That is $216 K per year 3 times actual pay rise for all engineers. Not too mention the outsourced maintenance at Hawkers Cairns, Worland Townsville, Contractors in Melbourne ( also own staff), contractors Adelaide, contractors Cairns for day to day.

Will we ever be the same - I don't think so. It will take an exceptional manager to bring back the good faith shown in the past. Will Q ever employ somebody of this caliber to sort the problems probably not. Would they actually find somebody in the current crop of managers who actually look further than whats going into the wallet.

Do we really need to look further than my 3-4 year contract - no.

12th May 2011, 02:22
Action for tomorrow - Friday has just been called off. More details to come.

12th May 2011, 02:51
11th hour mercy talks?

12th May 2011, 02:59
Qantas reinstates cancelled flights

Updated 14 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r354810_3247159.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r354810_3247158.jpg)Qantas announced it was cancelling 31 flights because of the impending strike. (AAP: Dean Lewins, file photo)

Qantas says all flights will be reinstated after the aircraft engineers union cancelled its industrial action planned for tomorrow morning.
Earlier, Qantas announced it was cancelling 31 flights because of the impending strike. A further 46 flights were set to be delayed.
About 1,600 aircraft engineers had planned to walk off the job for an hour from 8am (local time) tomorrow over pay and conditions.
The move, which would have extended over several hours nationally, was due to affect 2,500 passengers.
No agreement was reached between the parties during talks in Fair Work Australia yesterday, and further industrial action was planned for Monday and Tuesday.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers federal secretary Steve Purvinas has confirmed tomorrow's strike has been called off.
Earlier, he said there was no reason why the strike would not go ahead.
Qantas has accused maintenance engineers of not negotiating in good faith over job security and conditions and says it is disappointed at the disruptions caused

More likely a shot across the corporate bows.

12th May 2011, 03:15
Separately, Qantas was today slapped with New Zealand's highest price fixing fine of NZ$6.5 million ($4.8m).

Qantas in the midst of widespread turbulence | Adelaide Now (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/business/qantas-in-the-midst-of-widespread-turbulence/story-e6frede3-1226054596968)

Management shoot shareholders in the foot. How does that feel as this sorry saga goes on and on? I'm waiting for Somalia to slap the company with a fine, then I will laugh!

12th May 2011, 03:28
ALAEA federal secretary Steve Purvinas said the one-hour stoppage would not take place on Friday and conciliation with Qantas management would continue in Fair Work Australia on Monday.
He said recent concerns about safety, including an inflight engine fire and shutdown on a Singapore bound aircraft, a number of unscheduled engine replacements, fuel leaks from an engine in Japan and landing gear problems on a 737 aircraft have prompted engineers to cancel the stoppages.

Aircraft engineers have backed down on a planned strike, after Qantas began rerouting 2500 passengers | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/strike-to-cancel-31-qantas-flights/story-e6frg95x-1226054529621)

12th May 2011, 03:32
Keep 'em guessing Fed Sec, play with their heads. :D

12th May 2011, 06:01

What a load of crap Sunfish!

Playing the Devil's advocate here - QANTAS is trying to compete with the likes of V Australia, whose maintenance base is in LAX, with SIAECUSA - look them up...
In actual fact, QANTAS could potentially have their B744's and A380's main Line Maintenance base in LAX tomorrow, if they choosed to use SIAECUSA, as that company is already an FAA approved repair station for those types. Remember guys, as far as CASA is concerned, VH registered aircraft can be maintained by any approved Contracting State. Doesn't have to be in Australia.

Auster, It isn't as if VB is claiming to be 100% Australian or "The Spirit Of Australia".

What Qantas is doing is trying to claim it is an iconic Australian Airline while at the same time doing its best to replace Australian workers with cheap foreigners.

The natural response to that is to either remove QF's Australian privileged position and treat it as just another airline, or make it live up to its claim that it is unique because of its safety reocrd which is function of Australian attitudes to aviation. You don't get to have it both ways.

To put it another way, ever looked at whats written on the inside of a McDonalds hamburger container? That stuff about all Australian beef??

QF is really vulnerable to advertising if it keeps going this way. If it loses its Australian - ness, then it loses its one remaining point of difference with every other airline - and thus its product will be judged for what it is - stale and over priced.

The lens
12th May 2011, 06:54
Nicely clarified, Sunfish.

I rang Virgin yesterday re a fare across the Tasman. Talked with a quite articulate and friendly young lass....who just happened to have a foreign accent......based in the Phillipines.

The scales dropped from my eyes.....

For my destination, Virgin was the cheapest when compared with Qantas/whatsitconnect, AirNZ and Jet*- certainly as regards 6am-9pm travel times. (I'm not that keen on a 1am CHC stop-over via Jet*.)

Perhaps Virgin passes on 'savings' made by using OS-based staff/contracts, and so gets the custom. No doubt part of the reasoning behind QF's intentions re maintenance, crewing, etc. Wonder how Virgin's balance sheet look if/when the new maintenance hangar in Sydney gets up? (staffed by up to 300- Senate Committee Inquiry into Pilot Training/Airline Safety- IAQONS_ALL_250211[1]).

Damn, I almost forgot, maintenance is not a cost....

33 Disengage
12th May 2011, 07:26
Just like poor detective movies, QF management have adopted the good cop, bad cop routine. You have the spokesmodel and AJ in the media trashing Qantas engineers, internally GH and KC are posting emails trying to hitch their wagon to the majority of long serving engineers who care about the future of Qantas. Unfortunately, both have form, KC left the company after causing considerable damage to heavy maintenance, GH stopped all 3rd party work without notice causing considerable damage to line maintenance.

It's not good management, bad management, it's just BAD MANAGEMENT!!!

12th May 2011, 10:52
Thanks for the clarification Sunfish and unfortunately, I think you have hit the nail on the head with the QANTAS product, most certainly with the international offering, as being stale and overpriced.

12th May 2011, 10:58
Don't worry about Gavin, his days are numbered. I hope he has a train set at home to practice on.

13th May 2011, 00:13
I personally wouldn't trust him with one.

13th May 2011, 00:18
In light of the news that QF wants to start another airline in Singapore. Those dear John letters from GH, KC & CN, really do bring a tear to the eye! NOT!!!!! You f$)(&n coniving a$&@&es.

13th May 2011, 00:59
WOW!! A low cost base premium carrier that operates out of an Asian hub. A truly unique niche with little competition. Wish I had thought of that.

13th May 2011, 01:21
Dear Sue,

Please be advised that ALAEA LAME members working for Qantas will not be taking Protected Industrial Action on May 16th or 17th. We understand that the airline has struggled during the last week with many unexpected aircraft unserviceabilities of which many are engine related. We are also aware of extensive corrosion currently being uncovered on an aircraft that had previously been maintained overseas that should have been prevented as its early signs would have been evident during its previous check. With lack of spares (particularly engines) leaving the Qantas network already strained, we don’t feel it in the interests of either party to compound the problems with Protected Industrial Action at this time.

For comfort sake, you should also be aware that we do not intend to take action at any time in the next 4 weeks.

During this period we expect to continue conciliation before Fair Work Australia in a meaningful fashion. We do not expect Qantas to continue to say no to each one of our job security concerns; we want to work towards a mutually beneficial outcome that would secure the ability to carry out maintenance on Qantas current and future aircraft within Australian facilities where the quality of the final product is second to none.

Should no agreement be reached it will not be through want of trying on behalf of the ALAEA. This hiatus should not be viewed by the airline as an opportunity to procrastinate, train strike-breakers or grow the amount of backpay to be used at a later time as a bargaining chip. It’s an opportunity for Qantas to get it’s maintenance back on track and its aircraft prepared for what they should be doing. An outcome reached through negotiation has always been our aim and we urge the airline to make the most of this opportunity.

another superlame
13th May 2011, 01:35
Excellent Steve,

there is no need to damage the brand anymore than the company management does on its own.
Hopefully the ass clowns running the place will see some sense in the next few weeks.

13th May 2011, 01:45
Trying desparately to keep the faith here Steve but, I'm not sure we shouldn't have had a three day blast of full-on PIA and then had a break. Some might say this backing off makes us look indecisive and weak.

Obviously, not being on the inside and privy to the exact status of negotiations with the company, we (the membership of the ALAEA) must continue to put our faith in you and the negotiating team. I just hope we haven't given the company more breathing space to carry out what now appears to be their final objective of transfering as much of Qantas off-shore that they possibly can.

I hope that this retreat from imminent PIA is either an indication that a satisfactory settlement is close or, that in four weeks time the pilots are in a position to help us simultaneously outflank and bring more attention to the corrupt QF management with their own PIA.

Whatever the case, you (and the negotiating team) still certainly enjoy the support of the vast majority of the membership. And although I am extremely sceptical of any hope you may have of seeing a change in attitude from the vast Qantas management bureaucracy anytime soon, nobody will be more happy than me if I am proven wrong.

Keep up the good work.

What The
13th May 2011, 01:55
The mere threat of a strike causes the forward bookings to drop off. The damage is done. Calling off the strike does not reverse the damage.

Now do you get it?

13th May 2011, 02:02
I think I said in a notice last week to expect the unexpected. I could list about a dozen good reasons for what we have done. Some will become clearer over time. Others, nobody will ever know about......... :E

13th May 2011, 02:05
Still don't think it's as persuasive as the actions taken in 2008.

And I'm pretty sure management will view us backing off as us losing our nerve and feel they can take a position of strength in any negotiations. If not then believe they can just procrastinate and stall us further until 'alternative' off-shore arrangements can gain ground.

Again, nobody happier than I if I'm proven wrong.

Certainly hope you're right Steve. Good luck Monday.:ok:

13th May 2011, 02:10
The 2008 actions were put back many times over.

another superlame
13th May 2011, 02:12
Back in 2008 when the place ran on overtime things were different. Now with overtime being all but non-existent putting an overtime ban on now would achieve nothing. I know there was more to it, but that alone showed up the failed management style of slashing the place of experienced staff.
I think the current leave them guessing strategy is excellent.
Plus the workload has changed, they have employed a few people, mainly AMEs who at this time have a binding EBA.

13th May 2011, 02:20
Fair enough. I just hope we don't end up being a little 'too clever by half' and kick an own goal in the process.

Hope Monday brings a positive outcome.

33 Disengage
13th May 2011, 02:23
Steve, just wondering what the strike breakers moved from LAX back to Australia this week should do? Should they go back to LAX to continue training and doing A-Checks or should they stay in their hotels here (only to venture out after dark)?

griffin one
13th May 2011, 03:19
the only problem with the 2008 PIA is that it didnt clear house.Three years later we are back in a worse scenario with more and more offshored work.
Until the current management take a leaf from borghetties book and bring all back under one banner split the two models of J*and QF,then nothing will change.
the only vote all lames should vote on, Is a vote of no confidence in the current management from ops managers to the board.
hanger paint doesnt cut it.

13th May 2011, 03:41
I see Ian has finished in the commission for the day.

13th May 2011, 04:16
Unionist74. I think people hold far more value in Steves posts here than they do in your drivel. Back under your rock please.

13th May 2011, 05:02
Hi Steve, Must say I'm a bit dissapointed at not taking any PIA at this time. However I have faith that the executive has a game plan that they are following. I know you all did a great job getting the right result in 2008, so I will continue to place my faith with you again. All the best to yourself and the team, and I look forward to the day when the bodies of our enemies float by!
PS- Ian, give it a rest mate!

13th May 2011, 06:14
Well done again Steve,
Most will understand your need to keep some things strictly confidential,those that wont will be some of the ones who would pass the info onto our employer before you could blink!
There is certainly a huge window of opportunity there for a serious offer to be put on the table now(but not 6 months for another worthless 1),this will really show if there is actually anyone in management who is genuine considering all the media work they have engaged in to belittle us-time will tell & i am sure that this will cetainly grab the attention of the media.
Our association has again shown we are professionals,it remains to be seen if that hard earned title can be earned by the other party in these negotiations.:D:D

13th May 2011, 06:15
The events over the past few days have exposed and highlighted to the workers, and the Australian public, the agenda to outsource all heavy maintenance on the next gen aircraft to offshore. (And the quality issues in doing so).

Righty Tighty
13th May 2011, 09:21
I am not sure about the O/T issue,
Some of the out stations have a huge O/T account,
Take CBR for an example,
No 4 hour call in's down there,all O/T on 11 hour shifts,
But you have to be on the company side to get the cash,
One gready ex ansett LAME,now SNR,German has no problem giving himself 9 11 hour O/T
shifts for a 8 week roster and leaving none for the workers:=
Has Tim not worked out what is going on in CBR,the man running the place
is old TAA school guy,where we don't fix A/C on o/nights at stations,
It's time to clean house

14th May 2011, 13:16
Perth also has a massive overtime bill at the moment. An OT ban there would bring the place to a grinding halt. There would be even more delays and chaos than normal.
Just a suggestion fed sec.

14th May 2011, 13:33
Copy that.

15th May 2011, 05:42
Higher Duties ban is SYD would cause management meltdown at the moment :ok:

15th May 2011, 09:06
SP made clear (during the ballot) that he would resort to PIA as a last resort. He is a proven man of his word.

15th May 2011, 10:38
Fed Sec

Is it just coincidence that QF seem to be sending lots of engineers offshore at the moment?

Take a look at LAX for example

Once they are out of Australia they are exempt from the PIA and would be required to work as normal while the disputed raged at home.

Perhaps just those scum bags looking to hedge their bets again

15th May 2011, 11:22
You're not exempt from the actions if you are overseas. The protections are still there otherwise a pilot ballot would be nonsense. They are training some strikebreakers over there but then again they always are. Last PIA a few guys from Syd went up but it suited us better to see what was going on up there.

What we have in mind won't won't be covered by a bit of more work at LAX or JHAS.

See you at 1000 Ian.

L Riding hood
15th May 2011, 14:54
Shurly they have not got old Cowmeadows on the negation team again thought they would have learnt by now but I suppose he does know how to milk a prostate plenty of practices been doing it for year to JD I suppose AJ is only too curious to try it out himself. Well done old Cowmeadows been on the corporate spit EST 1974http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

16th May 2011, 00:05
Is it just coincidence that QF seem to be sending lots of engineers offshore at the moment?

Take a look at LAX for example

Same old same olds noted in SIN as well.

Nothing against the individuals at all, just thought after the recent goings on with relief postings/payments etc "they (management)" might just look outside their little "group" and offer it to other equally qualified/capable individuals out there in the network.:ok:

Huh, what? Oh sorry was having a bad dream.:ugh:

16th May 2011, 04:07
Qantas fires back at 'ridiculous' union claims (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-fires-back-at-ridiculous-union-claims-20110516-1ep7n.html)

My favourite part

Mr Joyce, making his first public appearance since having surgery for prostrate cancer, said the engineers' union had asked for pay increases and perks that would total $160 million over the next three years. "They have asked for membership of the Qantas Club for all of their members [and] they have asked for an extra week's leave to take it to six weeks' leave," he said.In other words a $33k/year claim. It's news to me :confused:
Qantas club ??:confused::confused:

16th May 2011, 05:42
Erm, FedSec old chap.

Please tell me that this reference to Qantas Club membership is a result of the leprechaun splitting a fan disc inside that delusional head of his?

I take it that the FWA meeting today yeilded little progress?

Whilst I generally enjoy watching the upper echelon's of Qantas Management slipping a few gears, I believe there is something of an information vacuum among the membership as to the status of negotiations.

I mean, is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Or are we banging our heads against the wall in precisely the same manner as we were six months ago? And if that's the case, why the delay in PIA?

Not critisizing. Just asking.


16th May 2011, 06:07
Edited after buying new calculator, one with 10 spaces across the display!

I thought reference to the Club was due to this;
Union heavies ride Qantas gravy plane | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/union-heavies-ride-qantas-gravy-plane/story-e6freuy9-1226056337557)

Might as well get as many of us they can into the trough. Stay away from these trinkets Steve, they come with a heavy price.

Long Bay Mauler
16th May 2011, 06:12
Did anyone else see the "Today" show this morning.

Apparently the next interest rate rise will be due to the Qantas engineers pay dispute.

Some journos will say anything to keep in the good books with certain major airlines.

Enjoy the pointy end Rossco.:hmm:

16th May 2011, 06:13
the next interest rate rise will be due to the Qantas engineers pay dispute

That is gold!

Going Nowhere
16th May 2011, 06:34
Just like how the Today Show also started one story on Whooping Cough (or something like it) with "As Qantas launches its first SYD to DFW flights mothers are being warned about the increased risk of blah blah blah..."

16th May 2011, 06:56
Obviously cutting edge journalism on the Today Show! Almost as good as that other bastion of journalistic excellence, Sunrise!

I would find it a bit easier to take from Sunrise, though, as Kochie used to be their finance reporter.:8 Although their association with Jetstar would get the conspiracy theorists going...:ooh:

What was that about "cloud cuckoo land"?

16th May 2011, 07:09
Not sure on the Maths. Please check my figures.

I thought he also said 1600 members of the ALAEA in QF. So that equates to $10000 for three years or $3333.33 per year for each member.
Sounds reasonable to me.
So how much does Alan think we should be getting?
I heard we offered them 3% and our current clauses, they said no. If as Olivia has alluded, on average we earn $150K PA, 3% equates to $4500 PA. He seems upset we are asking for less than they have offered? At $120K PA, 3% is $3600 PA.

LAME2 you left off a zero. Therefore the $160m divided by 1600 equates to $100 000 per engineer over 3 years.. hence the $33k..

Take five
16th May 2011, 10:16
How much more of this do we need to put up with?

I am sure that the Singapore government are not going to allow AJ to operate out of their country when it is in total competition with their government backed airline.

How much is Qantas paying for the overwhelming ad campaign for Jetstar?

How does the Australian government feel about the loss of taxable income from all the outsourcing which is going on?

What is CASA doing about Qantas' attempts to water down and undermine Air Safety in this country?

When are the shareholders in Qantas going to receive a dividend and some real direction?

What is it with all the Union bashing from management?
It is totally unnecessary. Oldmeadow Consulting is leading you up the garden path. They are the only ones to gain from this terrible situation.

Engage with your employees and get back on track before we and the public destroy you.

Get real and get rid of all the top heavies who are dragging the company down for their own benefit.

What a bunch of sycophantic wankers.

16th May 2011, 10:49
What a bunch of synchophantic wankers

Just have a read of the 'new JQ contract' thread to see how low Q management have stooped. Lots of very upset pilots.

I think this onslaught of anti union tactics is classic physcological warfare.

Do you really think that there is this endless supply of Asian aviation professionals ready and waiting to take up very mediocre T&C's for a foreign carrier? SIA pay their people quite well and it would take a huge nudge for their people to jump ship.

I'm thinking this is a sign of a very desperate attempt by Q management to propogate self doubt.

16th May 2011, 11:06
Please tell me that this reference to Qantas Club membership is a result of the leprechaun splitting a fan disc inside that delusional head of his?

Makes me wonder that all Managers have access to the Qantas Club and just a little clarification on the Qantas Club , BHP, FMG and RIO employee all have access to the Captains Club and this has been a big issue with its members who do not want to be seen with the common man . Quotes like " there's to much flouro in the club " have resulted in different classes of Clubs , with majority in the Captains Club then you have the Chairman's lounge and The Gold and Platinum Lounges.

So you will not find AJ in the Captains Lounge , and anyone with a Business Class ticket is entitled to gain access to the Captains Club.

The Captains Club has become a very crowded Bar and Bistro that memberships and included in wage negotiations and not paid for .

16th May 2011, 11:46
We can't say much about negotiations right now guys as it is under discussion in the Commission. I must admit we were pretty angry today when we learnt that Joyce had been having a crack at us in the press whilst we were trying to negotiate a solution. Well done Alan, always putting the airline first.

16th May 2011, 11:48
I am not aware of any claim for Qantas club membership. We are not allowed to join however, there has been some discussion in our area about this..... along the lines of US PAYING for membership and being ALLOWED to join. Suggestion was salary sacrafice membership. Doubt it would be allowed.

Anyway, I am sure AJ has thrown this one as yet another ploy to get the public off-side with us.

16th May 2011, 13:04
I guess it's safe to assume that those who "own" the bat and ball won't be playing the game quite the same way as we saw last time. No, I'm sure they've had their coaching and gathered in their dressing rooms to discuss the new game plan. They will have learned and mutated just like the way bacteria develop new more grotesque strains in resistance to medicine..

We should not be surprised at the levels to which they will stoop to win the game. We must expect the twists and turns that will come. These new guys won't enjoy the ride nor will they entertain the possibility that we have credibility and validity and strength. But, they will play hard.

It disappoints me immensely to see the blatant destruction that this current regime continues to wreak upon our once proud and highly esteemed company. Where once Qantas was the national icon, the essence of all that it is to be Australian, with a reputation for safety and quality second to none, it now barely holds a candle to its former self. I hold the current board along with their predecessors responsible for the slow death of Qantas; the continual undermining of the foundation of safety and respect for us as engineers and the work we do.

The character of a man becomes clear in adversity. I still hold to values that our predecessors gave heed; honesty, integrity, going the extra mile, taking pride in your work, close enough is not necessarily good enough..

As engineers I think there is still the essence of this within us all despite the constant dilution of respect, nay disdain and utter contempt held for us in the upper eschelons.

We have a proud history, and that IMO, is worth fighting for.

..end of rant..

16th May 2011, 13:14
I second every word of that post 1me! Well put!:D

Quill Shaft
16th May 2011, 13:22
As for Qantas basing some of its international operations outside Australia due to a review of the International Business as reported in the media, surely this could be challenged as a contravention to the Qantas Sales Act.

Part of the act reads as follows:

prohibit Qantas from taking any action to bring about a change of its company name to a name that does not include the expression "Qantas"; and
prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air transport passenger services under a name other than:
its company name; or
a registered business name that includes the expression "Qantas"; and
require that the head office of Qantas always be located in Australia; and
require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international air transport services (for example, facilities for the maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration), the facilities located in Australia, when compared with those located in any other country, must represent the principal operational centre for Qantas; and
require that, at all times, at least two-thirds of the directors of Qantas are to be Australian citizens; and
require that, at a meeting of the board of directors of Qantas, the director presiding at the meeting (however described) must be an Australian citizen; and
prohibit Qantas, at all times, from taking any action to become incorporated outside Australia.

16th May 2011, 18:04
Regarding our fearless leader's outburst in the SMH about our ridiculous wage claims..It would be ridiculous if it matched the 44% given to you when you signed on. Or perhaps the 11 million GD got for 5 months of hard toil. Was it 56 or 58% the top execs got not so long ago?
Bravo Alan :D, cry me a freaking river.Hypocrisy, look it up in the dictionary.
$160,000,000 over 3 years. That's $100,000 each over the 3 year agreement.:eek:
You must have getting excom's claims mixed up with our pissy 3% request old chap.
And to think I gave you public support after GD left the top job in the hope you would actually change the culture.:(

16th May 2011, 22:39
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth would be a revolutionary act".

(Eric Arthur Blair British writer and satirist 1903-1950)

16th May 2011, 23:18
This latest outburst really says it all,again & again they are happy to falsify whatever figures they can,what a pity nobody can invoke fines for lying.
I bet there wont be any retraction either-well,like they say ELEPHANTS NEVER FORGET,and just to clarify that comment for manager's benefit,consider the Lame to be an elephant!
Dont whinge about international passenger numbers falling-they didnt start falling till you stopped flying to the destinations they want to go to,not hard to work out what the problem is-DUH!!

16th May 2011, 23:25
engineers demanding Qantas Club access.....hahaha

17th May 2011, 02:07
I'm really starting to get pi$$ed off with all the bu11shit the little leprechaun focker is peddling to the madia.

Bring on the PIA! I need somewhere to direct my frustration! :ugh:

17th May 2011, 04:39
With talk of Qantas Club membership - It strikes me that negotiations haven't progressed at all from the "ambit" stage. Now that's progress?:confused:

17th May 2011, 05:10
Our claim for Qantas Club membership is not for free membership.

It is a claim for Engineers to be able to purchase and use their membership like 20,000,000 other Australians can.

We wouldn't want those grubby Engineers up there though would we.

17th May 2011, 05:59
Fed Sec, if the claim is proving difficult, try this...
Deal of the year? Half price Qantas Club membership - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/half-price-qantas-club-membership)

17th May 2011, 06:04
Our claim for Qantas Club membership is not for free membership.

It is a claim for Engineers to be able to purchase and use their membership like 20,000,000 other Australians can.

Not saying you guys shouldn't be paid up QC members, but was it wise to bring this up in the EBA? My understanding is that you can't use it while on staff travel/duty travel anyway, so why bother to to try and save a few dollars salary sacrificing the QC membership for maybe a handful of flights you pay full fare for?

This has only given fodder to AJ to use as spin, and didn't he use it today with the other AJ. I hate seeing you guys slaughtered in the media.

17th May 2011, 07:45
redundancies did you say,
the only fool around here seems to be you.

17th May 2011, 07:58
Thanks Ian. Now F*** off back to the steam room.

17th May 2011, 08:14
"... i hope you have all transferred your assets into your partners names . They are coming for you this is the end game.."
Hysterical, much????:eek:

Long Bay Mauler
17th May 2011, 10:23
Just remember that AJ and most of his cronies were amongst those that helped destroy Ansett in its final years.

They are now doing to one iconic airline, what they learnt to do at a junior management level at another.Brand destruction by stealth.

They may not have all been there at the final curtain call,but they all had their fingers in the pie as managers on the rise.

Its just extremely sad that just because you have had previous airline experience, that you are allowed to try and have a second chance with QF.

Is there any journos out there brave enough to run a story spelling out how many ex-Ansett management are now running QF.It would be interesting reading,especially if it comes about that management are pushing for a double dissolution style scenario of pushing pilots & engineers into a serious strike scenario.

Maybe some of these big funds that own a large portion of QF should be wondering loudly what these managers are actually doing with their money? It would be nice to see in the public forum that in the last dispute, management spent $150m to not pay the LAMEs $20m. Try and explain that to shareholders AJ.

17th May 2011, 11:13
Hey unionist1974, my partner wants to know if a mortgage and two 10 year old cars are considered assets or liabilities.

17th May 2011, 12:25
Why are we worried? In an interview with Siva Govindasamy ([email protected]) (Airline Business 23/03/10) Alan said,
“Qantas has an unbelievable history, an unbelievable brand. I'm very proud to be the custodian of this history going forward. Qantas employs 35,000 people, who have an amazing passion for the brand. We have the diversity of 92 different nationalities. In which other country in the world would you have one of its major brands led by somebody who was foreign born? That is something to be very proud of."
Benjamin Disraeli was wrong. There are four kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, statistics and Alan.

Alan stop being proud of being Irish and start being proud of Qantas. We are.

18th May 2011, 09:26

18th May 2011, 10:22
Troll, indeed. What I don't get is that plenty of other Pprune contributors have been sin-binned and banned for much less than unionist dribbles on about.

Maybe some of that wine, or iPads have made their way to the Pprune offices. Surely, not!

qf 1
18th May 2011, 11:18
i don't think the troll is Ian,but perhaps one of those previous execs from the old ALAEA.very sour grapes me thinks.same bloke that stood by and watched HM sydney shut down,why don't you tell us all what a great job you did for those members...

20th May 2011, 01:55
Yes, I agree with qf1. Unionist1974 is one of the previous ALAEA execs and was definitely there when Bruce D (RIP) headed the ALAEA.
I really would have thought QF would have given him his testicals back when he retired but apparently they still have them.

20th May 2011, 03:21
It truly saddens me to see what our once great airline has become. After nearly 30 years of service this is the worst "management" I have seen. It has now become KPI's and bonus driven by short term "managers" making short term decisions. These "managers" stay a short while, suck what they can out of the company and then move on to their next disaster and these "managers" actually wonder why the workforce is so disengaged. I just heard on the radio that another 74 has had a engine problem. I just laugh now when I hear that. I'm not being cynical am I?:ugh:

the rim
20th May 2011, 07:49
me thinks your wrong qf1...and is that your tool in pants....if you are going to slag off at people spell it correctly....whats a F**FWIT:mad:

20th May 2011, 09:07
You wouldn't care to put a name to your insinuation would you?

Probably not, libel in a forum is still libel.

satu jack
20th May 2011, 10:29
Simple : No job security = 8% - 8%
Isn't that why they get the big bucks?

qf 1
20th May 2011, 11:39
hit a nerve boys,sorry about the type O.:{:{:{:{

Much Ado
20th May 2011, 12:03
unionist1974 has been thread banned - if you guys don't want the whole thread binned lets clean it up a bit - thanks in advance:hmm:

The Black Panther
20th May 2011, 20:11
We are all use to the moans and groans from Management about the challenges ahead. Well the truth is, that's business. Whether it's a Mining Tax, Carbon Tax, Milk price War or cheap foreign imports all 'business' has competition and industrial challenges.

I don't cop the Armageddon spin AJ and his band of inept managers are throwing around, here's why.

In 2000 Qantas reported Net Passenger Revenue (NPR) of $6,975.6m - Manpower expenses reported in the annual report were 32.9% of this figure. In 2010 Qantas reported NPR of $10,938m, management delivered an improved NPR of 56% in 10yrs.

2010 manpower expenses were 31.1% (of NPR) or a saving of $196.9m. This is a reduction of 5.4% in real terms or 1.8% when compared to NPR. That could be for a number of reasons, foreign employees on local wages, Jetstar wages model, employees wages reduced in 'real' terms.

So 'we' delivered a saving to the company.

At the same time CEO remuneration increased 26.3% while the CPI rose from 126.2 to 172.1 or 26.7%, the CEO $$$ stayed just 0.4% behind the change the cost of living. LAME wages increased 24.1% in the same period (includes one grade jump from EBA 8). Unfortunately we've gone back 2.2% when compared to the CPI change. Somehow the claims of 'outrageous wages grab' doesn't seem to have any history from these figures?

I think our wages claims and the pilots claims are reasonable and this team of inept management best take a long hard look at their game plan. HOW IS JOB SECURITY AN ISSUE IN A COUNTRY WITH A SKILLS SHORTAGE?? Aviation prices will always fluctuate, tourism will wane with sentiment, extraordinarily events will continue yet the recent team of management sound like US evangelical broadcaster Harold Camping.

Team AJ need to reconsider the value they place on there employees, the best way to extract output and efficiencies from there employees, the true cost of disengagement vs engagement, the best way the protect brand equity, and what type of management has delivered a profit to shareholders in the last 20 years to Qantas.

I don't think it's rocket science but these buffoons are spinning the public a good story to cover there inability to handle the competitiveness of business Downunder. I say downunder because we aren't Europe, IMHO LCC's have a limited capacity and position in our the market and you won't beat the Asian's playing mahjong. play your own game.

21st May 2011, 06:37
The invitation remains QF1 - fill your boots

21st May 2011, 07:57
Alternative Options?

It was Dixon dicing three years ago at the last negotiations. This time it is Joyce jousting and its the same old thing all over again. These guys aren’t worth giving the time of day, and certainly should not to be given the benefit of your expertise, considering the poor remuneration that is on offer.

Perhaps it is time for a sea-change to eliminate such worthless cretins from your life? The mining industry is begging for engineers and workers of all sorts. I heard on ABC radio the other day that the average wage for a worker in the mining industry was $107,000 last year.

Here is a link to 950 vacancies in mining and oil with wages starting at $150,000 and going to $200,000+. Some of these jobs may require on the job learning and studious study on your part...but, what the heck.

SEEK - Job Search - Find jobs using multiple job search options (http://www.seek.com.au/JobSearch?Keywords=&occupation=6063%2c6068&nation=3000&SearchType=Refinement&worktype=242%2C245&Refinement=Salary&salary=150000-999999)

21st May 2011, 10:23
On another post, it was highlighted, the interesting relationship our Chairman has with a private equity firm.

Draw your own conclusions.

KKR Announces Appointment of Leigh Clifford as Senior Advisor

Former Rio Tinto CEO and Current Qantas Chairman to Advise Firm in Australia

SYDNEY, Australia, January 4, 2009 - Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. ("KKR") today announced that it has appointed Leigh Clifford, current Chairman of Qantas Airways Limited and former Chief Executive of Rio Tinto, as a Senior Advisor to the Firm.

"Leigh brings a global network, management acumen and experience and an understanding of public policy. He will be an immediate asset to KKR's Australian and international operations and we are delighted he is joining our team," George R. Roberts, Co-Founder of KKR said today.

Mr. Clifford, 61, has more than 30 years of corporate experience within Australia and internationally. He is currently Chairman of the Board of Qantas Airways Limited, a position he has held since November 2007. He was Chief Executive of Rio Tinto from April 2000 to April 2007, stepping down from the Board on April 30, 2007. His executive and board career with Rio Tinto spanned 37 years and included operational and marketing roles in Australia and overseas. His role of Senior Advisor to KKR is effective from January 1, 2009.

"KKR has a proven track record of building long-term, sustainable value in the enterprises in which it invests while also delivering solid returns for investors. Given the demand for both capital and operational expertise right now, I am proud to join a team equipped to deliver both, and I look forward to helping identify opportunities for investors while partnering with managers to strengthen businesses in Australia," Mr. Clifford said.

Since 2006, KKR has been building its Australian franchise, led by KKR Member Justin Reizes. The Firm has two investments in Australia: BIS Industries Ltd. (BIS), a leading outsourced supplier of on-site and off-site materials handling and logistics services to the minerals, metals, and coal mining sectors; and Seven Media Group, one of Australia's leading media companies. KKR acquired both companies in 2006.

Mr. Reizes said: "Leigh's appointment introduces to Australia our global strategy of adding highly experienced senior advisors in our operating countries. Our senior advisors are part of our integrated model of value creation. They complement the expertise of KKR investment professionals and our operational executives at KKR Capstone by providing us with additional strategic counsel. Leigh's operational experience brings with it immediate and valuable insight for our portfolio companies in Australia, particularly BIS."

Mr. Clifford lives in Melbourne, Australia and is also Director of Barclays Bank plc and the Murdoch Children's Research Institute as well as a Member of the Bechtel Board of Counselors. Formerly, he served as Chairman of the Council of Mining and Metals, the Coal Industry Advisory Board of the International Energy Agency and as a Director of Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold Inc. He holds a Bachelor of Engineering and a Master of Engineering Science from the University of Melbourne.

Mr. Clifford joins KKR's expanding global network of Senior Advisors, including: Sanjiv Ahuja, former Chief Executive Officer of Orange SA; Sir John Bond, former Group Chairman of HSBC Holdings plc; John E. Bryson, former Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Edison International and former Chairman of the California State Water Resources Control Board; Liu Chuanzhi, founder of the Lenovo Group and President of Legend Holdings; David Cote, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Honeywell; Bruce W. Duncan, Chairman of Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide; George M.C. Fisher, former Chairman and CEO of Eastman Kodak and Motorola; Joe W. Forehand, former Chairman and CEO of Accenture; Yoshiharu Fukuhara, Honorary Chairman of Shiseido Co., Ltd; Paul M. Hazen, former Chairman and CEO of Wells Fargo; R. Clint Johnstone, former Director and CFO of the Bechtel Group; Louis Kang; Paul Norris, non-executive Chairman and former CEO of W.R. Grace & Co.; Gianemilio Osculati, Chairman of Valore S.p.A. and former Chairman of McKinsey's Mediterranean Complex; Lee R. Raymond, former chairman and CEO of ExxonMobil; Edward Tian Suning, Founder and Chairman of China Broadband Capital Partners, L.P., and Vice Chairman and former CEO of China Netcom Group.

About KKR
Established in 1976, KKR is a leading global alternative asset manager. The core of the Firm's franchise is sponsoring and managing funds that make private equity investments in North America, Europe, and Asia. Throughout its history, KKR has brought a long-term investment approach to portfolio companies, focusing on working in partnership with management teams and investing for future competitiveness and growth. Additional funds that KKR sponsors include KKR Private Equity Investors, L.P. (NYSE Euronext Amsterdam: KPE), a permanent capital fund that invests in KKR-identified investments; and two credit strategy funds, KKR Financial Holdings LLC (NYSE: KFN) and the KKR Strategic Capital Funds, which make investments in debt transactions. KKR has offices in New York, Menlo Park, San Francisco, Houston, Washington, DC, London, Paris, Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo and Sydney. More information about KKR is available at: KKR: Kohlberg Kravis & Roberts: Henry Kravis & George Roberts: Who Are We (http://www.kkr.com).

21st May 2011, 13:34
Reading the above post, i cant help but be amused at the fact that someone like Clifford can be a board member of so many companies however, should one of us in engineering decide to take on a 2nd job..... we must inform the company to ensure there is no conflict oof interest.

21st May 2011, 22:55
I can feel a Rowers meeting coming on.

22nd May 2011, 02:02
It's time Steve.

the rim
22nd May 2011, 07:05
very well documented figures,bet in another life you might have been a banker or an accoutant,but anyhow well said.These buffoons,as you say should be made to come clean with their figures,as someone else said on here the fed sec should bring it to the media attention every time the QF management put out incorrect data.....we have to use approved data why not them.......the rim:ok:......come on qf1 wally up

the rim
22nd May 2011, 07:09
hope its switched on divi1 we might need it soon

qf 1
22nd May 2011, 07:32
wally up ?,isn't he down in Avalon.:E...i think he"s setting up some worlds best practice down there.

qf 1
22nd May 2011, 07:40
LONGBOW25 can you please explain what you think i'm insinuating,or is there something that"s on your mind that you would like to get of your chest,come mate you can let us all know ..

22nd May 2011, 18:43
Is your assertion that the now "forum banned" unionist 1974 is a former Executive member based on fact, or simply as baseless assumption?

Seems like a rather sweeping allegation to be based simply on an "I think" moment.

Company troll, I have no problem with but a direct slur on a limited group of people is rather pointed don't you think?

22nd May 2011, 20:55
The venom Unionist1974 spreads has the same smell as that of the former ALAEA executive, to put it another way, the prose and tone looks similar.

22nd May 2011, 21:54
Unionist1974 is not a former ALAEA Executive member.

I know them all well, most are extremely supportive of what we do. The ones that aren't do not conduct their business in this style.

23rd May 2011, 03:25
When are we meeting you down at the rowers fedsec.....I gather the orange sheet is a call to arms???:ok:

23rd May 2011, 03:33
What is with the orange bit of paper on alaea notice board SP? Is it just in Sydney.

Quill Shaft
23rd May 2011, 06:12
I think job security is an issue we need to address now more than ever after reading the below article in the SMH.

The current management who created the current state of affairs to QF International (the exact same way the same people killed off Ansett) are now looking to get some data from a consulting company to justify radical changes that they were always going to do anyway.

Latest Qantas talk is Bain of staff

The already fractious relationship between Qantas and its 32,500-strong workforce is set to be tested even further amid talk the airline has hired the services of a management consultancy company known for its radical surgery methods.

The airline, which for years has used Boston Consulting Group, is rumoured to have invited Bain & Company into its offices to prepare a few pie charts.
The appointment of Bain is not likely to go down well with Qantas's heavily unionised workforce. The blurb on the management consultancy's website notes: ''In this challenging environment, airlines can take steps to improve their business - but it requires decisive action.

''Bain's approach to consulting - focused on strategies with the highest impact and effective implementation - is well-suited to the airline industry, where there is no time to waste.''

Bain boasts that the returns of its airline clients ''have outpaced the S&P by 4 to 1''. Bain might be able to apply some of the expertise it built up helping the now defunct Ansett.

''Bain's expertise in airline consulting includes work in strategy, mergers and acquisitions, turnarounds, fleet and network optimisation, pricing, labour relations, operations restructuring and business plan formation,'' says the website.

23rd May 2011, 09:42
Doesn't employing the services of "Management Consultants" imply that the current management are inept? If management is spending bucket-loads of money on consultants, they should vacate their positions as they have voted no confidence in themselves.

23rd May 2011, 09:51
A quote from BRW magazine May 5-11, 2011, page 19 cover story "The Business of Sex" :
'Its a maxim straight out of a human resources manual. "Treat your staff well and the business will prosper," the young entrepreneur with dreams of a multinational business proclaims. "When you look after your staff, the result is pure gold." '
Maybe management should read this story and treat us well before trying to :mad: us!

The masked goatrider
23rd May 2011, 09:54
Orange notices are up in Mel too. You know what that means............

23rd May 2011, 10:19
On every notice board in BNE03 too.... even the AME's union board. Meaning???

The orange cancer spreading?

D Delay-Hay
23rd May 2011, 11:09
They went up at Qantaslink Bne engineering today and management tore them down.:=

23rd May 2011, 11:51
It is becoming abundantly clear that PIA is now imminent. The jungle drums are beating!!

Nassensteins Monster
23rd May 2011, 12:55
What are these things you call orange notices?

23rd May 2011, 21:40
Busboy, the engagement of Bain & Co is just that.They are admitting that Bains know more about running Qantas than the exec group themselves.
Bains will be given an outcome they are to achieve.It will not include anything to taint the reputations of the board or excom.The unpalatable truth and actions required will be someone else's recommendations that will be felt by middle management and organised labour..

Quite odd considering we're "the worlds most experienced airline":rolleyes:

Make no mistake boys and girls this is crunch time.Many many jobs are going to go if they get their way.

23rd May 2011, 22:24
Make no mistake boys and girls this is crunch time.Many many jobs are going to go if they get their way.

Remember late eighties early ninties at QANTAS Coopers & Lybrand JOBS WENT:*

33 Disengage
24th May 2011, 01:05
If jobs are going to go, and I'm not saying they will (other than QE management, of course), how important is it for the annualized payment of our wage to be part of the EBA. Super and redundancy payouts would be much higher.

If management continue on the sourched earth policy, they should be made to pay for it!!

The Black Panther
24th May 2011, 01:32
Take the money and run now while they still have bank credit.

Remember to take a witness and personal recorder into the departure date interview they have a habit of forgetting things.....or LYING THROUGH THEIR :mad: TEETH one might say.:=

24th May 2011, 02:16
So how much in remuneration does Allan Jetstar and his cronies take, yet now they are going to spend millions and get someone else to tell them how to screw up Qantas more so Jetstar can take over. :confused::confused::confused:

:mad: they must have heaps of money to waste. In true QF management style CN spent all that money painting hangars which are going to make way for a380 hangars. Smart hey ?

Here,s a suggestion, how about we pay you $36,000 a year taws tat is wot you said on 2GB is a good wage and we just get consultants in to do your job.

This current 'budget airline' management team have no idea how to run a premium airline and are now steering QF down the budget airline track.
Maybe a bit of advertising wouldn't go astray instead of the free stuff your getting everytime another incident occurs.

Saw the orange paper go up, message received.

24th May 2011, 02:28
Hey all,

The Managers are going spare over the orange papers on the notice boards. There have been barneys at Sunstate, Union reps dragged into the office in Tamworth and TD running around Sydney tearing them down. If you can, do what it takes to get them back up. We have sent a bucket load of them out to the Reps. Just wondering how they are going to take them down though in London, Helsinki, Miami, DC, Dallas, LAX, Buenos aires, Santiago .........

another superlame
24th May 2011, 02:44
For those of us off shift at the moment, can you give us a heads up as to the content of the orange paper.

24th May 2011, 03:25

24th May 2011, 03:26
The content.......

" "

They are blank orange sheets if paper.

another superlame
24th May 2011, 03:35
Nice work, next thing to do is walk into the hangar and look up the the hangar roof until a few others join you. Oh and make sure you point at nothing in particular.

24th May 2011, 07:53
The jungle drums are beating!!
and increasing in tempo!

griffin one
24th May 2011, 09:29
the orange sheets of paper are working, asked by manager is it some sort of code.
couldnt help myself but to explain as an alaea member i cannot divulge the strategies or code of orange.
cant wait until code reds:ok:

33 Disengage
24th May 2011, 09:37
60 % of our LAMEs have seen Code Orange notices. One more day and we will be ready to go operational.

24th May 2011, 10:38
For someone not in the loop, it kind of reminds me of the no longer used A check status lights.

Somethings not going well :)

Nassensteins Monster
24th May 2011, 13:05
"You are in the wrong," replied the fiend; "and instead of threatening, I am content to reason with you. I am malicious because I am miserable. Am I not shunned and hated by all mankind? You, my creator, would tear me to pieces and triumph; remember that, and tell me why I should pity man more than he pities me?"


24th May 2011, 17:04
Our Manager ripped them off yesterday m'ning...he was pi:mad:ed....
Brought a smile to my face:ok:

TD....damm I wish they would get rid of that waste of space...that guy is a real piece of work...

Read the offer from QF today....your gotta be kidding me....is that the best they could do....bring on PIA:D

24th May 2011, 23:41
very creative - well done

Suggest orange arm bands next!

25th May 2011, 00:07
Got mine in the mail this morning!:E

Pterois Volitans
25th May 2011, 04:20
Have to ask......what the ^&&** is the orange paper for? Have I seriously missed something!


25th May 2011, 04:33
if you missed something, go to the rowers club meetings mate - you'll find out.

Pterois Volitans
25th May 2011, 04:50
And for those that missed the rowers!!! :( how about a clue? Do not think i am the only one that does not get it?.

25th May 2011, 04:58
A bit sensitive to discuss on an open forum, you could be a manager. Best if you discuss it with a rep.:ok:

25th May 2011, 05:38
still time to go to the rowers meetings too - have a look on association website

25th May 2011, 06:29
I see the big mgr from wa is back from NZ. From the photos, it looks like it was a buggery of a trip.

25th May 2011, 06:58
Guys, regarding the ORANGE paper..

Don't ask on this forum.. I'm sure there is someone you could ask in real life. We know our illustrious management read this forum.

25th May 2011, 07:24
Good luck... even the reps where I work have no idea what it means!

Millet Fanger
25th May 2011, 07:49
One of the SYD managers claims to have worked out the importance of the Orange paper. One of his "Yes" men has been 'seconded' from normal duties just to try and limit the effectiveness of the initiative.

The Chopper
25th May 2011, 11:49
If you shine a black light on it you'll find it's actually a Jetstar Engineering application!


25th May 2011, 20:28
Dutch Nastysteen?
Irish littleman?
Or a bad fake tan?!?!
Could be anything really
Is the red one next?
The commies might be coming!
Reds under the bed

The Black Panther
25th May 2011, 21:12
In reality the Qantas mainline staff are not asking for much of an increase in wages - if any. They just want security around their current wages and conditions and for the new recruits operating under the Qantas brand. This requires the maintenance of a full-service Qantas operation.
The pilots are not about going on strike - even if they are asking the industrial regulator to give them that option. Their tactics are all about working to rule. There are plenty of ways that such behaviour can cripple schedules without the need to take full-scale strike action.
Over the past couple of weeks the engineers have been advising the pilots on how to disrupt the airline to maximum effect.
The industrial action by engineers bought the company to its knees and backed its then chief executive, Geoff Dixon, into a corner.
The current chief executive, Joyce, clearly wants his baby, Jetstar, to take brand ascendancy but he understands he cannot sacrifice Qantas mainline in the process.
by Elizabeth Knight

Read more: Qantas is pursuing a risky strategy (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-is-pursuing-a-risky-strategy-20110525-1f4gh.html#ixzz1NOub1gJQ)

25th May 2011, 22:53
From the article:

The real issue for Qantas is that it wants to undertake a seismic shift in its own cost base - but its ability to do so is being hampered by legacy wages it pays to its long-serving mainline pilots and to a lesser extent, to engineers and cabin crew.

..But of course Allan, you want to keep the legacy safety record don't you?

The reality is that your low cost exercise will end up giving you Garudas reputation for safety.

Did you hear about the ICAO audit of CASA?

Third world regulator + Third world Staff + Third world cost base = Third world safety outcomes.

25th May 2011, 23:24
But of course "legacy wages" will remain for CEO, the board and members of exco. That is a given.

hi-speed tape
25th May 2011, 23:54
I'm pretty sure the orange poster at the SIT has a black horse visible within it. You have to look really carefully but I'm sure there is one there. Must ask Krispy Kreme what it all means !!!!!!!
( we miss you doogie, you gave us sooo much fun last EBA) !
OK, that's it from me for this EBA, far too busy trying to get a replacement George Foreman fat buster grill for the smoko room from Timber Deck !!!!!
Good luck to all during the EBA, you're all worth every penny you seek. :ok:

Galley Raider
26th May 2011, 02:45
Right on!
How long does it take to replace a George Forman grill?
Must be part of the buggery campaign!

26th May 2011, 06:42
Are you the same 'Galley Raider' that's in the Base Maintenance Footy tipping comp???:hmm:

26th May 2011, 06:49
What's it all mean !
What's it all mean !
What's it all mean !

Whatever it means is probably not what management think.
Although most of them sound like they are spooling up faster than a Missouri tornado.

hi-speed tape
26th May 2011, 08:43
I'm in the footy comp & I love a good buggery comp too !
Now where is Krispy Kreme ?
DOUG ! DOUG ! DOUGIE ! doug, doug, doug, doug,doug..........

26th May 2011, 10:03
Nice 'Hangover' reference there, bloke....:D

26th May 2011, 10:13
Next they will build a wall around the smoko room and vending machines "to keep the rabbits out"

Quill Shaft
26th May 2011, 11:07
This just in from the AGE.

AJ crying poor again. "QF international in jeopardy" :{

Yes, its all part of the grand plan. He runs the brand into the ground, allows JQ to feed of Qantas (just like they did when allowing ANZ to suck the blood out of ANSETT), creates maximum employee discontent and disengagement until there is a company wide revolt, place blame on the employees and the unions and shut the airline down and move it overseas.

Then he collects his coins from the hidden pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. To be sure to be sure.

Future of Qantas in jeopardy: Joyce

The future of Qantas as an international carrier is in jeopardy, the airline's CEO Alan Joyce says.

Fair Work Australia on Thursday approved a ballot allowing long-haul pilots to vote on taking industrial action for the first time in 45 years.

"The continued claim that they are going to take industrial action ... is an attempt at further damaging the brand," Mr Joyce told the ABC's 7.30 program on Thursday.

Advertisement: Story continues below
"Unfortunately, this is the way some of these rogue union leaders think."

The pilot's demands, which include wage increases - with the Australia and International Pilots Association (AIPA) pushing for a rise of two-and-a-half per cent over three years - would result in job cuts, Mr Joyce said.

"They are demands the company cannot agree to and they are demands that will result in job losses in this company," he said.

Mr Joyce labelled both the engineers' and pilots' union leaders as "rogues" who the company was "going to have to stand up to".

Qantas puts the cost of the demands at more than $300,000 million but the pilots' association says the figure is more like $90 million.

"There are certain demands I cannot concede to because it will endanger the survival of the company," Mr Joyce said.

"Our international business is losing money, our international business, if these demands are met, will go back even further."

26th May 2011, 11:45
300,000 million? :eek:
Shurely shome mishtake....

qf 1
26th May 2011, 11:53
maybe it's time for AL and the board to take a pay cut,or a least a pay freeze:{:{:{

Quill Shaft
26th May 2011, 11:55
300,000 million?
Shurely shome mishtake....

To be (off)shore, to be (off)shore :E

26th May 2011, 13:59
After today's meetings I now know what the ORANGE notice realy means!

26th May 2011, 16:52
Reduced to name calling already? Didn't expect it so soon.
"rouge" thought we might get a more intelligent debate from AJ instead of a personal attack on union leadership. They must be getting under his skin. Perhaps the rouges are QF leadership intent on ripping the heart and soul out of QANTAS.!

The Black Panther
26th May 2011, 21:49
It appears AJ is getting down to heads-up and his 3 8 off suit is about to be exposed. The ALAEA and Pilots are All In.

Rouge Unions leaders - Not quiet when you have 80% support from 80% of the membership. Pilots figures TBA. Julia is a rouge PM if that's the case.

International market share declining - But that was intentional, we see QF routes now flown by JetStar and JetConnect ("Jetstar will never fly legacy routes"- What Bul$$it !)

Commercial support - I saw my first QF International TV add last week possibly the first occasion in six months. It is blatantly obvious QF Management have totally focused on the LCC models, why is the decline of QF Int such a surprise? Ignorant or stupid

Franchising of mainline - What do you say. It's obvious they can't run an airline from Australia and would prefer to have a $2 shelf company in Melbourne and wholly owned subsidiaries throughout the low cost labor neighbor nations with inferior industrial relation policies, utilise foreign MRO's but still charge a punter a FULL SERVICE PRICED TICKET that would normally come with an unsurpassed safety record, knowing their dollar pays Australians staff and goes toward training and skill improvement.

Staff engagement - Email your manager today and see if your reply is the same as mine. Survey results have been delayed indefinitely. When will they realise the implicit value of a positive staff relationship?

Sorry AJ employees seeking job security isn't responsible for the carnage and fallout we see behind us. The media are on to the inflated figures and lies your spin doctors are flouting.

Change direction or be responsible........ - All In- your call -

27th May 2011, 01:15
Wonder if captain AJ will go down with his ship? Probably more like a greek cruise ship captain, grab french poodle and take first priority onto own liferaft and paddle off into asian sunset. Leaving all to fend for themselves.

Maybe AJ should get that dodgy calculator of his out, probly bought at and asian market close to where plans to setup qantasia and work out how much its gonna cost to make redundant just a few thousand QF pilots, engineers, cabin crew etc: with an average of about 20 years service.

Looks like that 2 billion $$ they have in reserve is dissappearing before their eyes and no action has even started yet. Seems that AJ and the board have got abit of gamblin problem. Win at all costs.

I think all this money flooding the aussie economy would drive up intrest rates not job security clauses as reporters in qantas back pocket have been reporting :ugh:

27th May 2011, 02:09
Into the Asian sunset ? Asian's aren't stupid enough to employ him. They probably value their staff quite a bit more then the current crop of Qantas management and don't want to alienate them by calling them names and spreading lies in the media.

Apparently a pair of premium economy tickets costs around $42500 EACH now, or so the argument against the pilots goes.

Almost half of this - an estimated $145 million - would go towards pilots seeking two free premium economy seats to any overseas destination as a pay-off for Qantas being able to determine when they take their annual leave.

$145million / 1700 = $85294 each

If 2 premium economy tickets costs that much, I'm afraid Qantas, you're doing it wrong.

Makes you wonder how it is that every other full service, relatively high cost base competitor 'legacy' airlines in the region, SQ, CX etc, are managing almost record profits. Maybe it's something to do with not attacking their staff in public arenas and focusing on the product.

27th May 2011, 04:42
Well said Black Panther :D

I'm ALL IN too brother! I'll bet my balls most of the 1600 Licenced Engineers and 1700 Pilots are ALL IN with us.

I'm prepared to fight until the current QF management are gone or I no longer have a job :ugh:

Enough is enough.


the rim
27th May 2011, 04:52
come clean you irish boofhead no one is copping the crap you and OW are handing out to the press,the staff have been copping it for years,but now the flying and general public are awake to your lies......so QF cannot handle a pay increase to the pilots and engineers we will go broke,as others have said on here HOW MUCH DO YOU GET PAYED let the media know that and see how they react.....if you are going to start up another LLC well pay us out and do it let the Australian icon die.....then fu*k off back to your homeland as you wont be welcome here .....rant over but it just gives me the sh#ts to see what he is doing......the rim :mad:

27th May 2011, 07:52
Who's the Einstein trying to change an extended shift pattern during these troubled times?

27th May 2011, 08:13
Who's the Einstein trying to change an extended shift pattern during these troubled times?

Yeah...Saw that, Dunno !!

FedSec ??


poison pen
27th May 2011, 09:52
From all the rubbish I have had to listen to in the press from the CEO to and questions that have been asked from the general public it is plain to see that AJ and Co are heading towards a train crash.

It is refreshing to hear support from the general public against QF and their lies.

Lets go SP I am ready.


Arnold E
27th May 2011, 11:02
Look, to me it is fairly simple, AJ, you say that pilot and engineer claims are outrageous, fair enough, but answer me this, do you think that your claims on the company are outrageous? if you dont, fair enough, tell us why? Now I dont expect Alan to answer this, but maybe one of his flunckies will.

27th May 2011, 12:10
But Unionist 1974 is banned from this thread.....:yuk:

27th May 2011, 12:25
The Melbourne Terminal managers are trying to change the rosters.

Arnold E
27th May 2011, 12:36
The Melbourne Terminal managers are trying to change the rosters.
I am an outsider, but a supporter, what does this mean?

27th May 2011, 12:44
Our roster agreement essentially says that any rosters must only be implemented after a bollot of those employees who may work the roster has passed. The managers down there have been pulling individuals aside and trying to slip them on to a new roster without having the ballot. Some guys may want the new roster but most don't. For each one of the individuals who arranges his own personal roster, those on the approved roster suffer. It is a long running struggle down there and has been going on for years.

A lot of it is about lies and mistrust. The International boys were moved to domestic and ultimately went without a battle after they were told they could keep their roster. Low and behold, two years later management want to get rid of their roster. Members should not make their own arrangements. Stick together for god sake.

Arnold E
27th May 2011, 12:58
Stick together for god's sake. I'm with you Fed Sec

27th May 2011, 20:47
there is now almost 2 weeks gone of the 4 week 'grace' period we gave the company to commence more negotiation-how much negotiation has been happening & have we moved forward at all?

27th May 2011, 21:35
3 meetings on Monday at Airport Club (1300, 1530 and 1900) turn up and you can ask Steve, Paul, etc all the questions you want.

28th May 2011, 08:20
You'll have to speak really loudly, if you want an answer from Paul ....

28th May 2011, 09:20
Yes Paul has to work and for him it means a gig travelling back to France with an A330 that is having some steering problems. He should be well and truly back by the time any crap may hit the fan.

28th May 2011, 10:09
For each one of the individuals who arranges his own personal roster ...

golly, you wouldn't want someone to sort something out that might work for them and their family, would you? bl**dy hell, we're not all sheep.

Righty Tighty
28th May 2011, 11:00
Frustrating Working with narcissist,
A few years ago QF upper Management decided that no longer should a person be rewarded or promoted due to ability,you now had to conform to a certain criteria
NARCISSIST was the new buzz word around QF.
So just a few hints your boss maybe a Narcissist
:They say hello how are you?but they really don't care
:They delegate work projects,if they succeed they take the glory,if they fail they blame who they delegated the project to.
:They don't feel that the rules applied to the workers apply to them
:They cheat and scam when they know they can get away with it
:They take your ideas and sell them as there own
:They feel that the day to day tasks should be done by others as they feel above these duties
They always use I,me and my when they talk
:They should be given an acadamy award for the show they put on around there boss
Just a few signs guys
Promotion at QF

28th May 2011, 12:11
golly, you wouldn't want someone to sort something out that might work for them and their family, would you?

No you wouldn't if it impacts others. How would it impact your family if a dozen blokes in your section moved to a straight day shift. The boss then tapped you on the shoulder and said we are overstaffed on days, we are moving you to an 8 hour permanent night roster?

28th May 2011, 12:45
golly, you wouldn't want someone to sort something out that might work for them and their family, would you? bl**dy hell, we're not all sheep.

There is a reason for everything mate. If you think for one second that if management were able to change rosters at will that it wouldn't be exploited ?

Besides, you work for an airline, you made the sacrifice years ago that you wouldn't get nights/weekends/public holidays/easter/xmas off. It's bad enough that we will never have a normal work/life balance, to have no provision for majority rule in the shit hours we have to work then you're dreaming if you think management would hesitate to make your life worse.

Think back to Perth a few years ago.

Delay 421
28th May 2011, 23:02
I understand that CN requested PC go with A/C to TLS. Appears to be a conflict of interest in my book. I'm sure there are many more QF LAME's that have a lot more exposure to this A/C and it's ongoing issue. If I were PC I would have turned it down to show my union that I wasn't open for being sidetracked by a jolly.

29th May 2011, 00:25
I'd be a bit concerned about this as well. Perception is everything!

29th May 2011, 00:43
Luckily PC can get some first hand experience of these
new generation aircraft that don't require maintenance.

Sounds ridiculous to me sending an aircraft back to the
factory for a steering defect anyway, only so many parts
to go wrong. Hope Airbus is covering all the costs of this
jolly. Enjoy their wine.

29th May 2011, 00:58
I understand that CN requested PC go with A/C to TLS. Appears to be a conflict of interest in my book. I'm sure there are many more QF LAME's that have a lot more exposure to this A/C and it's ongoing issue. If I were PC I would have turned it down to show my union that I wasn't open for being sidetracked by a jolly.

Bear in mind that, as an employee, PC cannot refuse any legal request so there's a bit of a catch 22 in there. That's one of the key issues the ALAEA has, not being big enough to pay their entire leadership team means they need to work in the industry and no matter where they do that there will be some degree of conflict.

29th May 2011, 01:34
It's a bit crook having a crack at PC for going away. He hasn't had a course in 8 years, didn't get an "extras" from the last EBA and I can't even remember the last time he went for an aircraft recovery or relief job. If ever he was to go anywhere the next few weeks would be the best as we will mainly be waiting for the second ballot to take place.

29th May 2011, 04:58
Interesting how anything can be justified if you have a need to.

A case of do as I say and not as I do, or is it, hook, line and sinker!

Or does he have a legitimate link to the aircraft defect?

The explanation will be interesting if it ever comes?

Whatever it is the PERCEPTION is horrendous.

29th May 2011, 06:06
Imagine the Quality of applicant you would receive if the Job Advert for the ALAEA Federal President read something like this -

Position Available ALAEA Federal President

Must -

Be a Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Currently Working for an Australian employer.
Spend countless hours post duty addressing members interests and enquiries without compensation.
Defer any opportunity for aircraft Type training whilst in the position.
Not apply for any promotion whilst in the position.
Reject any offer or demand of your employer to travel outside Australia for aircraft rectification.
Watch as younger LAMEs enjoy the above benefits and overtake your status within the company without complaint.
I'm thinking that we would most likely end up with a pretty ordinary President, if any at all. I want to be the first to wish Paul enjoy his break away, if possible, after all the effort he has put in lately working in his own time for our union.

29th May 2011, 06:20
I can understand where you're coming from Steve however, the federal president should always remain above reproach.

Nobody doubts that holding any position within the federal executive isn't an easy gig but, anybody who puts themselves forward for such positions would surely realise that it does involve sacrifice. Hence, the character of the people who seek out this sort of service is usually beyond question.

I think however, given the current climate, it was unwise for anybody from the federal executive to accept an invitation for a jolly to France. If, as has been suggested here, it was at the invitation of CN, it raises fears (justly or unjustly) that it could be used to compromise a persons negotiating position.

And raises some question as to whether or not you may have allowed CN to deliberately create some disenchantment between the members and its executive (The old divide and conquer routine).

It also raises concerns as to where the executive's priorities lie at a time when we appear to be in a fight for our very survival.

Just a thought.:hmm:

29th May 2011, 06:22
It's a bit crook having a crack at PC for going away.

Agreed. He's doing his job. Something we all want to get on with once the shenanigans have been sorted out.

The Black Panther
29th May 2011, 06:39
Perhaps CN wanted PC to go because he knew it would create a division in debate amongst the members. It's an old tried and tested method.

If PC gets a jolly mid term of an EA who cares, most of us wouldn't have known or cared given a one-off event.

However given we are in a PIA standoff and QF willing to use any weapon it can to crack our solidarity, it would appear from these posts their attempt has worked.

Steve I hear you but any position in the union executive needs to have the 'appearance' of independence as well as the conduct. Unfortunately that means foregoing a few opportunities in my opinion.

**Looks like CC and I were on the the same page

29th May 2011, 07:10
CN has had nothing to do with this and most likely doesn't even know about it. Paul was requested by his local manager to go as is the normal way for any other employee. Paul is beyond reproach in everything he does, his travel for work now makes no difference to your EA matters.

If you want to attack, have a crack at me. I'm required to go to Madrid for a 3 day union planning meeting on 20th June. In my defence, I love Sangria.

Gas Bags
29th May 2011, 07:25
What will Joe Sixpack out there percieve when the PR spinners from Qantas drop the story of how the union that is fighting offshoring on the premise that Australians do it better send their Federal President 'offshore' with an aircraft to get it fixed cause the Aussies couldnt do it?

Forget if it is based on fact or not the average guy on $50,000 a year out there will see it only one way when GT and Kockie tell it to them on Sunrise.

Disclaimer - No dispute of the individuals tireless efforts or deservedness of the trip.

My tip is that CN does know all about it.

Timing is everything....what were you guys thinking? Potentially a few days in the land of soap dodgers could came back to bight you....I sincerely hope not.


The Black Panther
29th May 2011, 07:27
Appearance Appearance Appearance.........absolutely no question of PC's ethical conduct.

Is QF paying for your trip? I think not....?

The previous ALAEA President made a bad call when he did overtime for a customer during an overtime ban. It remains a bad decision.

My personal opinion remains the same in the situation. We move on.

Oh Me Oh My
29th May 2011, 07:30
WTF has this thread degenerated to ?

29th May 2011, 07:33
I don't think Qantas are about to advertise that another one of their Airbuses has gone back to the factory becasue it doesn't work properly. I would have a field day with it and most likely, lots of first hand information.

29th May 2011, 07:36

At the end of it all you have every members respect and support. We are all aware of the time that goes into positions such as those, often with little thanks.
Enjoy your trip Wookie.

another superlame
29th May 2011, 08:09
Sangria you say, try the gammon ham as well. The Spainiards have a thing for quality pig meat.

29th May 2011, 08:15
There's NO DOUBT in my mind that PC (and SP) behaviour in the "O/S Trip Affair" is totally above-board.

Unfortunately, I do have to agree with other posters that it "looks bad".

To think that CN was not aware that T.W was going on the trip beggars belief.

If nothing else it HAS stirred the LAME-Pot, and not in a good way.

We'd all like a "jolly" or whatever, but some of us haven't had a course since just-after the school re-opened, and don't we all remember that fiasco !

I think that if this had of happened at any other time there would not be an issue, BUT...If the company comes back with a mediocre offer, which the ALAEA Exec thinks is "the best we're going to get", their recommendation to accept it, no matter how "final" they think the offer to be, will, in some members minds, be "tainted". IMHO.


29th May 2011, 08:18
PC enjoy your trip! SP enjoy the tapas! I`ve got alot more faith in this union than the previous. Love ex SYD Heavy Maint worker!!!

29th May 2011, 09:14
I think its great that PC got the trip its shows good faith between management and the union, would you prefer if it went to a non union assclown, PC is beyond reproach and I hope this dispute is resolved so we can get on with fixing aircraft

29th May 2011, 09:16
If the company comes back with a mediocre offer, which the ALAEA Exec thinks is "the best we're going to get", their recommendation to accept it, no matter how "final" they think the offer to be, will, in some members minds, be "tainted". IMHO.

Now this I do agree with.

29th May 2011, 10:04
Hey AJ and your bogus greedy board, more and more reporters are waking up to your BS! Aussies love their Qantas & don't want an outsourced foreign operated Qantas. Nor do they want a Qantasia or whatever other dodgy crap you come up with.

Pilots, engineers, cabin crew, cargo loaders, all QF employees are prepared to bring AUSTRALIAS Icon to the brink if thats what its gonna take to save it from you bumbling fools!! If you don't like it, please get on one of your LCC's you love and p**s off back home!

The real Qantas kamikaze - to be sure to be sure
Miranda Devine – Sunday, May 29, 11 (08:43 am)

Qantas’ current industrial strife is a worry to fans of the national carrier. Why is a newly arrived Irish CEO with an incomprehensible accent attacking the pilots, of all people, and calling them “rogues” and “kamikazes”.

Clearly Alan Joyce, 44, doesn’t understand Australians’ attachment to Qantas.

As far as passengers are concerned the pilots are royalty.

If they want a couple of free premium economy seats, they should be at the head of the queue.

Business class seems to be full of Qantas employees, anyway, so why shouldn’t the people who actually fly the plane get the odd freebie.

And if unionist Paul Howes gets membership of the exclusive Chairman’s Lounge, then soshould the pilots.

In any case, what the pilots really want is job security and a guarantee they won’t be replaced by cheap contract pilots from Asia.

That’s what the passengers want, too. Without its superbly skilled pilots, Qantas’ edge over its competitors vanishes. Its fares are more expensive but people have been willing to pay for safety, and the familiar Aussie friendliness of the flight attendants.

What Qantas has that no other airline has is what Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man famously said: “Qantas never crashed.” Although that’s not strictly true, Qantas has not had a fatality in 50 years.

We can attribute its safety record to the quality of its pilots, not to mention its engineers, also striking over job security—pilots such as 25-year Qantas veteran Richard de Crespigny who managed to land QF32 safely last year after an engine blew up mid-air, saving the lives of 466 passengers.

Qantas is not just another airline. It’s a national treasure. Australians feel ownership of the flying kangaroo. It’s certainly not like the gimcrack airline Ryanair from Joyce’s homeland, which is so cheap it plans to make passengers stand during flights so it can squeeze in more people, and to make them carry their own luggage to the plane.

Joyce should remember that without passengers he doesn’t have a business.

And while we’re at it, at the risk of appearing xenophobic, why is American amateur pilot John Travolta the face of Qantas? It makes no sense, and Americans, more than anyone, must be scratching their heads.

:D:DBravo Miranda Devine :D:D

29th May 2011, 11:12
CN requested PC

Delay421 - Nice first post. Inflammatory at best, stooge.

PC, go do what we all strive to do - fix planes.

SP, you and the team are doing a superb job - keep up the good work.

And well said Miranda.

29th May 2011, 22:33
Not often do I have any common ground with Ms Devine. First time for everything.Probably the last but we'll see!

PCs trip is above board of that I have no doubt.Have some faith guys!He is no fool.
These trips are not the jollies they once were and in fact can be a pain in the arse.He's not on the riviera sipping cocktails having a bleeding holiday! :{
The bus in question has a very long standing serious defect.It is well that one of our top guys is there to keep an eye on it and procedures.

30th May 2011, 01:11
PC and SP have already shown more skill and courage when dealing with QF management then anyone else I know. I can’t think of anyone who has [email protected] even half as big as theirs.

I think this is a win for the ALAEA.
The usual “brown nose yes men” will be wondering why they are not going to TLS and he is.

Now that the “brown nose yes men” are not being rewarded for being [email protected], they will be pretty pissed off (and worried).

It now appears every time AJ calls people “rogues” and “kamikazes” he is looking more and more like a fool. Great. Keep up the good work AJ.

30th May 2011, 02:47
AJ, May call our union officials `rogues`. but you have to wonder what his motive`s are. Considering these `rogues` put together would have hundred`s of years service with Qantas. How many has AJ got???
What`s AJ`s main incentive whilst at Qantas? Same as GD. Get as many millions as humanly possible out of the place, & into his pockets. Regardless of the current dedicated staff. Not to mention the share holder. What`s our share price today?? Well done AJ!

30th May 2011, 03:02
Disappointing to see PC will be absent from negotiations which he has been involved with for the last few months. Seems very poor timing and an errror of judgement... Being at work yesterday, general member sentiment is negative. At a time where members will be expected to strike / implement overtime bans PC could be in TLS...

30th May 2011, 03:10
I note that trolls have appeared again trying to divide and conquer.

another superlame
30th May 2011, 03:41
What is the problem with PCs trip? If I didn't know better it would seem that there are a lot of jealous people out there who think it should have been themselves going to France.

Get a grip and move on. I am sure with the current means of global communications, he has the ability to input into the EBA if he needs to. Pack of old women, not happy unless there is something to whinge about.

30th May 2011, 03:57
PC going to TLS
Disappointing to see PC will be absent from negotiations which he has been involved with for the last few months. Seems very poor timing and an errror of judgement... Being at work yesterday, general member sentiment is negative. At a time where members will be expected to strike / implement overtime bans PC could be in TLS... Re PC going to TLS with NWS defect
I understand that CN requested PC go with A/C to TLS. Appears to be a conflict of interest in my book. I'm sure there are many more QF LAME's that have a lot more exposure to this A/C and it's ongoing issue. If I were PC I would have turned it down to show my union that I wasn't open for being sidetracked by a jolly.
Is this the latest tactic by the IR consultants ?

Send a union exec member on a 'jolly' and attack his credibility on a forum?

If it weren't so obvious that this were the same poster, the same ways of referencing,ie TLS, PC and the tone of both posts by 2 'people' who felt so strongly about this issue they made an account on PPrune just to have a whinge about it, maybe it would be believable. But probably not.

Money well spent.

30th May 2011, 04:00
Considering the stage we are at in negotiations, with the upcoming ballot and the fact that PC can easily return if required I cant see a problem. At this stage I wouldn't have knocked it back if offered. I doubt I would be the only one to only too happy to pack my bags.We all know you end up doing more work than play but the experience would still be worth it.

King William III
30th May 2011, 04:28
Enjoy the trip PC, nice to see one of the good guys getting one instead of the usual stream of a-licks and 'club' members!

Good to see QF starting to slip a bit in their hold of the media! :D

30th May 2011, 05:17
Just a loyal ALAEA member who felt it necessary to voice the opinion that this is poor timing. I was present at the ALAEA feedback meetings where there was no mention of this trip. Why? Would have been interesting to see feedback and response.

Nassensteins Monster
30th May 2011, 06:34
What is the problem with PCs trip? If I didn't know better it would seem that there are a lot of jealous people out there who think it should have been themselves going to France.

Get a grip and move on. I am sure with the current means of global communications, he has the ability to input into the EBA if he needs to. Pack of old women, not happy unless there is something to whinge about.

Here here; Could not have said it better myself. :D

Agreed, it doesnt look good. But make no mistake, management will do whatever it takes to divide and conquer by manufacturing dissent. All negative comments here regarding PC in TLS are further reinforcement to management stooges & trolls that it was "Mission Accomplished."

Get over it. See the big picture. Have some faith.

Can we now move on please?

30th May 2011, 07:31
Disappointing to see PC will be absent from negotiations which he has been involved with for the last few months.

Do you really think he is missing much? If I hazard to guess, the only thing he will be missing out on is the same old repertoire and bull$hit that our negotiating team has had to listen to for the last six months. At least his time is now being spent constructively, and doing what he probably loves best.:ok:

Chances are he will be back when the fun begins in four weeks time.

BLF Goon
30th May 2011, 08:50
Good to see Paul heading on the trip, his integrity can't be questioned. It gives other employees faith that people can be picked for these trips on their ability.

Unfortunately one of the last 738 delivery flights was done by geoff higgins (cns dmm) who has no integrity, while in the states he took part in some scab training as well

If the company has sent P.C to create a divide, it's a poor effort and won't work.

The members have faith in the union exec

31st May 2011, 01:17
The usual “brown nose yes men” will be wondering why they are not going to TLS and he is.

It could be that QF actually want this a/c fixed. Sending a brown nose won't get it done. It has been my experience that brown nosers are useless engineers. Good on you PC, show management what REAL engineers do!:D

1st Jun 2011, 00:00
I think you have hit the nail on the head aveng.

They have actually sent someone with the ability to take on a task, and succeed.

As regards the feedback meetings, so far the vast majority of members I have spoken to are fully behind the ALAEA. The others are just a little confused!

What is also evident is the fact that the disengagement the current situation is causing is having a negative effect on morale. BUT, it is also making everyone see how much better, and more productive, we can be as a team.
If QF cannot see this, they, and they alone, will be responsible for any loss incurred by this situation.

If, as I suspect is the case, they are playing a 'game', of which both the Pilots and ourselves, are just a part, they will not resolve both our EA's until that 'game' reaches a certain point.

33 Disengage
1st Jun 2011, 05:58
For Qantas chiefs, life in the pressure cooker will get hotter
Ben Sandilands, aviation reporter and Plane Talking blogger, writes:

The pressure for change at the top of the Qantas group is building to levels where the chairman Leigh Clifford and the CEO Alan Joyce will be either be quickly removed or embroiled in a bitter struggle to retain control.

The pressure has little to do with union strike action, there hasn’t been any, nor the constant Qantas whingeing about competitors. These are just diversionary sideshows.

It is about two years without shareholder dividends, the bad mouthing of Qantas full-service, long-haul flights by the management team responsible for them, doubts about the real viability of Jetstar, and amateur hour stunts such as supposedly convenient flights to Dallas-Fort Worth that stuff business travellers into a second-rate cabin, leave them without luggage and clean clothes because of payload restrictions, and add hours to flights that could have been done via Los Angeles.

Qantas oneworld partner Cathay Pacific had a very quietly spoken message for Clifford and Joyce yesterday when its new CEO John Slosar was in town.

And that was, work in your space, not ours. Asked about Qantas’s get-out-of-jail plans to miraculously solve its inadequacies and the burden of being an Australian icon by setting up off-shore entities in Asia, Slosar referred to the issues with government and authority relationships and the need, in the obvious context of its own success in China, to nurture generations of relationship building to get where it wanted to be.

The Dallas debacle has made Qantas an object of mirth among other long-haul carriers because it involved using a jet that is patently incapable of flying the distance reliably non-stop in both directions from Australia with everyone’s luggage on board.

It is this contempt in Qantas for technical advice and customer expectations that has led it into errors in fleet and route planning from which there is no quick escape, as well as more fundamental safety-related errors. This was apparent in Alan Joyce’s time as the founding CEO of Jetstar when he was responsible for a decision to change the A320 approved flight manual procedure for a go-around, a mistake that saw one of its jets carrying about 140 people come close to crashing in fog at Melbourne airport in 2007, after which the carrier was found by the ATSB to have failed to keep traceable records or to have conducted a mandatory safety management system analysis before making changes it has not to this day explained to anyone.

Safety, however, may not be front of mind in investor perceptions. Declining market share, lack of dividends, and an inability to manage labour relations before they result in court approval of protected industrial action at a time chosen by the unions are all hallmarks of management failure.

Telling Australians that Qantas needs to be less Australian to be successful is not a winning message. Every Qantas management since the company was listed on the stock exchange in 1995 has emphasised the value of it brand, which is inextricably bound up with being Australian.

But the only new guidance for a market looking for prompt remedial action at Qantas has been a vague concession that a study into a new Asia-based carrier is under consideration with no further details to be announced before the end of the year.

Joyce and Clifford have weeks if not days to come up with answers, rather than year’s end.
Sit back and take a breather, Joyce is losing the war all by himself.

1st Jun 2011, 08:36
Fed Sec,
How about a change of tack, we don't want a payrise, all we want is the current board to resign, [also get rid of all the deadwood, ie. ops managers and their equivalent], and lets get people in the job that want to make Qantas a great AUSTRALIAN icon that it once was, i know it's only a pipe dream, but the public would surely be on our side.
Well Bugger me

1st Jun 2011, 10:20
How about a change of tack, we don't want a payrise, all we want is the current board to resign

The board will go regardless if they don't settle at the negotiation table.

1st Jun 2011, 11:57
apparently this is just a preview of the rumored qantasia's new international premium service carrier that will be launched early next year to prop up the qantas group. the current board are just full of great ideas.

YouTube - ‪Come fly with me - Omar 2‬‏

1st Jun 2011, 12:01
Worry-wort I think that is a Ryan Air advert, standing room only.

Elton Jon
1st Jun 2011, 23:17
Seems our brothers in the north are doing some work on an aircraft just returned from an overseas MRO. While the defects are not 'a/c grounding' its another example of an unreasonable standard of service that QE are prepared to accept at the demise of our HM industry in Australia.

Middle management apparently sort the names of all engineers working on the aircraft and read the riot act regard company privacy and leaks to the media. It is just embarrassing that our iconic national airline prevents transparency of it's business for fear of questioning by the media or the public. QE are at a terrible position and middle management should be ashamed they partner this disgusting path the Qantas board is directing. Sure it's a minor percentage of our HM work in Australia but the wedge is getting bigger and senior management will continue to drive the wedge to the legal limit in accordance with the Qantas Sale Act.

Of course the planned service keeps getting put back until it's clean and tidy. The defects appeared minor in nature apart from a two which were related to an auxiliary power unit not starting and a degraded engine that occurred en route.

All this is rumour of course, I can't confirm if it is true. Perhaps a journo might want to ask a question of Olivia?

2nd Jun 2011, 00:42
Everybody, please check out this out! re JetConnect.

JETCONNECT | Hungry Beast (http://hungrybeast.abc.net.au/stories/jetconnect)

the rim
2nd Jun 2011, 10:16
dont want to get morbid.....but I have joined in on the banter and humor we all have posted on here,but the time has come to sit back and see what happens in the comming weeks.The Qantas that I have have seen and it has been a long time ...some 4 decades so I know what I am talking about the old Qantas will never and I mean never be again.....:=... and I can understand that things must change so we can compete on an international market but when we are told that heavy maint in this country only chargers 2.5% more than asia and aircraft come back with heaps of defects that must be fixed before further flights then the costs must be equal or better if the work was done here.The humor has gone from me I am totally degusted at whats happening with that little irish ar$ehole at the helm. Let the ALAEA bring on another ballot and let us show Qf and AJ we mean what we say......WE WANT QANTAS TO BE A PROUD AIRLINE AGAIN....the rim:(

2nd Jun 2011, 10:52
Middle management apparently sort the names of all engineers working on the aircraft and read the riot act regard company privacy and leaks to the media.Whilst I was not working on this aircraft today, some of my crew were. I doubt any of them were read any "riot act" by middle management. If they were, I haven't heard about it!

3rd Jun 2011, 00:02
Report on nine msn this morning - 7000 cabin crew offered VRD packages.
All permanents ?
Leaving only part time, casuals.
We have a new slogan -
"The Spirit of Part Time Australia"

Jethro Gibbs
3rd Jun 2011, 02:29
Its over get what you can and get out the end is close.

3rd Jun 2011, 07:43
8 months since start of EA negotiations began and nothing from QF except lies, bullying, deceit and mind-boggling BS in the media.

As part of Fair Work Australia's annual wage review, they have been handed a modest wage increase of $19.40 a week, 3.4 per cent increase to the minimum wage.

Qantas Engineere are branded greedy asking for 3%

Time for a new PIA vote.


The Black Panther
3rd Jun 2011, 08:11
What is the outcome when QE announce redundancies iaw our current EA?

I would guess there would be 300 Australia wide who are preservation age minus 18 months and may elect to take the money.

ALAEA revenue reduced
Less strength (numbers etc)
Are we fighting a losing battle due to the lack of training over the last 10 years?

Just a scenario? Any thoughts?

Jethro Gibbs
3rd Jun 2011, 08:30
Title of this thread is Qf Lame Eba Negotiations Begin ! begin nothings happening given the news today nothing will any workforce left will be casual very casual but be available any time 7 days a week to do a max of 20 hours a in a week one question is do Qantas have enough cash to pay out everyone's entitlements.

Oh Me Oh My
3rd Jun 2011, 11:52
Given recent announcements, how about we go back to the redundancy claim 7 & 8 and leave it at that ? :D

3rd Jun 2011, 12:23
What only 8 months and not much buggery there yet.
Try 2 years - buggery didn't work.
Now just ignoring us - virtually no communication with company.
FedSec doing heaps in background but obviously getting no where.
Upper echelon aren't even coming up here to offer the pittance any more.
Probably just hoping we all just give up and leave like 11 already have - see if you wait long enough problem goes away !!!!

Jethro Gibbs
3rd Jun 2011, 12:31
AJ is going to drive this bus off the cliff suggest all passengers get out and leave him to it.

3rd Jun 2011, 15:53
AJ is going to drive this bus off the cliff suggest all passengers get out and leave him to it.

More like jump out with a golden parachute

3rd Jun 2011, 16:06
Jethro Gibbs says....
AJ is going to drive this bus off the cliff suggest all passengers get out and leave him to it.

Get out of the bus now, hit the ground moving and hope for the best......

Stay on board, grit your teeth for the faked crash and claim your redundancy pay out.....

Or stay on board and hope that the driver and conductor are overpowered by persons more competent who will take control and drive us safely into the future.

The Black Panther
3rd Jun 2011, 21:49
When things get tough perhaps we could take the fight to the public and engage the stakeholders of HM to contribute to place full page adverts in national newspapers about the off-shoring Qantas is planning and the revenue being removed from communities.

The Australian public buy Qantas tickets only to see the expenses to maintain the aircraft go to overseas pay packets and foreign suppliers (That will be the scenario with the A380 & B787). Sure you know when you buy and Apple iphone it's a foreign based company. But surely buying a Qantas ticket means supporting Australia.

When is Ausbuy not AusBuy - when you buy a Qantas ticket. No exaggeration if AJ could off-shore all wages he would. He'd have all cabin crew from any country whose wages costs in real terms are less than Australia. Now we see his business acumen it's not exactly clever or unique. I recall Al Dunlop (The Chainsaw in the 80's) had similar talents, he ended up on the same heap he created just like this turd will. Think outside the square and engage your employees, extract the value we can all add to this company, sustaining profits does not need to be growth based, moving into someone else s' backyard thinking you can do it better is fraught with danger. You can jiggle the intragroup transfers for so long and then the pack of cards fall down.

4th Jun 2011, 08:58
For a feel good story, our Cliffy has something to say. Hold on.

QANTAS chairman Leigh Clifford has slammed rumours of a rift with chief executive Alan Joyce as "absolute rubbish" and says there is no board dissension over the company's industrial strategy.

Rumours of a rift and reservations by some board members about the developing battle with the airline's pilots and engineers have been swirling around the industry along with speculation about changes at the top.

But in a forthright interview with The Weekend Australian, Mr Clifford moved to emphatically quash the rumours while emphasising the need for a major revamp of the carrier's beleaguered international operations.

He also attacked the leadership of the pilot and engineering unions for its failure to understand the competitive threats facing Qantas.

As Qantas shares yesterday slumped to $2.03, their lowest point in nearly two years, Mr Clifford said he had worked with Mr Joyce for three years, and as chief executive for two, and enjoyed working with him.

He said the board had discussed in detail the airline's industrial relations issues, particularly the nature of claims by the pilots and the engineers. He and Mr Joyce spoke regularly about the issue although he was "very conscious" the chief executive was running the business". He had also personally canvassed every board member as part of an annual review and given each an opportunity to raise concerns.

"The board is absolutely right behind Alan and very comfortable with how he's running the business," he said. "Now that doesn't mean we're happy with where the business is, but absolutely Alan and I are in lockstep."

Operations at Qantas international are under review as the long-haul airline continues to fail to make a return on capital in the face of increasing competition. At the same time, the airline is also facing industrial action by unions over job security issues.

Mr Clifford said the board was aware of the challenges facing the industry and the directors were "absolutely on the same page about the importance of making changes", including to the loss-making international airline.

"They understand the predicament of the international business and we are looking at alternatives," he said.

"And what I can assure you is it will be different going forward -- make no bones about it, it will be different going forward -- it cannot remain as it is."

Asked whether this included a full-service airline in Asia, Mr Clifford pointed to comments by Mr Joyce that alternatives were being considered.

"We're looking at a variety of alternatives and one of the discussions I've had with Alan is 'let's not constrain ourselves'," he said. "What we've got to do is have something which can ensure the viability of the business going forward and an adequate return on capital and that's not what we're getting at the moment. That's the best way to secure jobs. Writing pieces of paper is not the way to do it, whether you're in the auto industry or any other industry."

The Qantas chairman said he had briefed major shareholders on the airline's situation and they had rightly highlighted their concern about the airline's economic performance, particularly in the international business, as well as the lack of reality in union claims.

He said he was aware the union leadership was briefing analysts but "wise and experienced people" would know the union objective was to create concern and disharmony, and pressure management.

But management already had plenty of pressure from the share price, the profit performance and the encroachment of Emirates and AirAsia.

"We can handle the competitive environment, we can't do it sitting on our hands," he said "We've got to be creative, we've got to be thoughtful and we're willing to do that. That's how we'll respond to the share price and, frankly, I'd say every investor I've spoken to is right behind that."

Mr Clifford said he was also concerned that employees were being misinformed by their union leaders. He said anyone who understood what was going on in the aviation industry understood the magnitude of the challenges facing the company.

"Frankly, I've spent more time on some of those claims than the other board members in discussion with Alan," he said. "You have to say to yourself, 'What planet are these people on given the competitive environment?' Haven't they heard of AirAsia, haven't they heard of the challenges coming from Emirates, from Etihad, from Qatar.

"They only have to speak to Airbus so see what the order books look like to understand some of the challenges

There you are, feel better now?.

4th Jun 2011, 09:21
Assclown. Now we can be sure where Qf management get their incompetence from, the very top, the chairman of the board.

I would like to see as a shareholder the return on investment I am gaining from Joyce, Clifford, with, Grant in fact the entire board and the toxic board and exco.

4th Jun 2011, 11:33
Does this sound familiar? A blast from the past, 6 years ago to be exact.

Qantas move offshore might cost 2500 jobsBy Scott Rochfort and Nick O'Malley
October 22, 2005

Page Tools
Email to a friend Printer formatQantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has put himself on a collision course with the unions, after confirming the airline was looking to move "significant parts" of its engineering operations overseas.

Such a move could result in the loss of up to 2500 maintenance jobs.

Citing the recent decisions by Air New Zealand and United Airlines to relocate their long-haul heavy maintenance work overseas, Mr Dixon said Qantas would have to follow suit if it could not make its Australian operations "globally competitive".

He said a final decision would be made by February.

Mr Dixon said, however, that the warning had nothing to do with upcoming enterprise bargaining talks between Qantas and the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union, which represents around 1500 Qantas maintenance staff.

"The bigger issue here is that the industry's changing and it's not about Qantas saying, 'Well gee, I've got a negotiation coming up with the AMWU'," Mr Dixon said.

"It's got nothing at all to do with our EBA [Enterprise Bargaining Agreement]. This is much bigger."

AdvertisementMr Dixon said the possible maintenance job cuts did "not necessarily" represent the largest component of the airline's plans to cut a further $1.5 billion off its cost base in the next two years. But he argued the airline had created 10,000 job in the past decade. "Not one of these have been created by a union," he said.

The national secretary of the AMWU, Doug Cameron, said: "We are going to fight this industrially, politically and publicly."

Relations between workers and the airline soured in the past year after what unions said had been deliberate intimidation.

"This constant campaign of fear and paranoia is diabolical," said the secretary of the Australian Workers Union, Bill Shorten.

"They have definitely pissed off a lot of people this time."

He said the airline's industrial relations managers were a "bunch of clowns running a media campaign rather than talking to their workforce".

Mr Shorten called on Qantas to stop negotiating through the media and put its cards on the table.

Australian Services Union assistant national secretary Linda White said she was yet to get a clear guarantee Qantas would not sack any of its 2000 call centre staff.

"With Qantas, we'll have to wait until it reaches the front page of a newspaper. That's how they conduct their industrial relations," Ms White said.

Mr Dixon said: "We will not be making firm guarantees to the likes of the ASU."

Qantas also confirmed a further 70 engineering staff could go after it lost a technical handling contract with Singapore Airlines on Friday.

Singapore Air said Qantas had tried to lift the price of the $9 million a year contract by "at least" 30 per cent last week. It said the price hike was closer to 50 per cent, given Qantas had decided to stop providing "pushback, water and toilet" servicing to Singapore Air aircraft.

"We had every intention of recontracting Qantas to provide our Australian-based engineering services. We were surprised in the negotiations that Qantas lifted its rate well above market rates," Singapore Air spokeswoman Kate Pratley said.

She noted Qantas came through with the proposed price increase only a week ago.

Singapore Airlines declined to comment on suggestions Qantas no longer wanted the contract and had used it as a ploy to cut its maintenance workforce.

"It's a question you should ask Qantas," Singapore Air's head spokesman, Stephen Foreshaw, said.

Qantas spokeswoman Belinda de Rome said Qantas was "disappointed" it had lost the contract.

The move comes two months after Singapore Air said it would not renew its ground-handling contract with Qantas, which Qantas said would result in the loss of 200 jobs.

The song remains the same, like Medusa cut one head off and two grow in it's place.

sky rocket
4th Jun 2011, 12:37
It's true. Once the board is replaced we will be fine.

4th Jun 2011, 15:57
Singapore Air said Qantas had tried to lift the price of the $9 million a year contract by "at least" 30 per cent last week. It said the price hike was closer to 50 per cent, given Qantas had decided to stop providing "pushback, water and toilet" servicing to Singapore Air aircraft.
Note the date of the article?

October 22, 2005Yet Mr CN lead us to believe that it was the LAME's PIA that caused customers to lose confidence in our abilitly to carry out their work. (A "fact" that was repeated to me in parrot fashion by a manager during our service Quality day)


This ALAEA notice is dated August 2007, the first to announce application for PIA.
Almost 2 whole years AFTER customer contracts began to be destroyed.


5th Jun 2011, 00:18
So its all gone quiet from the ALAEA......is it true they got threatened with court action from QF and the legal advice they got was that they would loose loose loose with a BIG monetary penalty they couldnt afford?
Snakes and ladders, go back to square one gents...

5th Jun 2011, 00:22
If you attended one of the meetings last week, you would know what's happening.
If you have yet to attend a meeting in your port, make sure you attend.
If you are not a member, nothing to see here.

33 Disengage
5th Jun 2011, 01:53
Thanks for your attempt at FUD, but best leave future efforts to onionist, shareholder and co.

Things have gone quiet while more attempts are made at negotiating an agreement. Everything else in your post is total rubbish!

5th Jun 2011, 02:38
Apparently ops manager MS was canvassing SYD Base LAMEs the other day proposing an extension of the company's current 3+3+3 offer to include an extra grade for everyone, not just those blocked by quotas.

Word is, he was getting plenty of good feedback from the troops too.

Has anyone else heard of a renewed company offer in the pipeline?

5th Jun 2011, 02:47
3+3+3 offer to include an extra grade for everyone PLUS job security will solve this mess tomorrow :ok:

5th Jun 2011, 03:48
They could offer you 5 grades each and it would make no difference if you have no job security. Don't be sucked in.

5th Jun 2011, 04:18
Could someone refresh my memory with the status of our PIA ballot?
What of the pilots ballot? When do the planets align? Lets get on with it.

5th Jun 2011, 04:28
They could offer you 5 grades each and it would make no difference if you have no job security. Don't be sucked in.

That's the one thing you probably won't ever get, not from any kind of management except the most absolutely and utterly incompetent. I know you don't like it, none of us do, but we're competing on a big world stage. The only way to get job security is to be competitively cost effective.

My opinion on that is well known, and it cannot be achieved by QF restricting wages and conditions. Equally to prevent QF from having outsourcing as an option is not right either.

Think of it this way - how would all LAMEs like it if they had to buy Australian made cars? There are plenty of imports driving to and from site each day so it's not like QF if the only one facing international competition.

Ever bought a book off Amazon instead of your local bookshop? Software? DVDs? Clothes? Bought from EBAY? If so then your position is hypocritical, you want the benefits of competition without facing it yourself.

These are all forms of competition that many people use each and every day and it's wreaking havoc across the Australian retail scene. Only those smart enough to adapt and offer better value, perhaps through convenience, perhaps by local knowledge or whatever, will continue into the future.

For QF Engineering I see the solution as actually working together, and that takes both sides to come to the party. Scheduled turnarounds in less time allowing seats to be sold or perhaps even less aircraft to be utilised to cover route requirements (i.e. less "spare capacity" in the network to allow for planned aircraft downtime) is a major cost saving. Problem is the way both parties are fighting at the moment the argument is all about direct costs associated with labour. The indirect costs I mentioned are potentially far higher, couple that with every other indirect cost you can think of and the number gets big very quickly.

You'll probably want to tell me QF management don't want to negotiate in that way, and you may well be right. But if you're smart, and I know you are, then you and your team are going to have to not only lead QF to water but get them to drink. YOU and your guys need to show them the real and actual benefits of doign work here with hard numbers, not just the argument of "we're safe, we're the best, planes will crash" etc etc etc.

None of the people in QF management are stupid despite what many here like to think. They may not see the world the same way as you, they may not agree with what you are saying, but ultimately if they can do their job and improve profitability then they will. How you start that I'm not sure, I've always been on the side where I've been trying to get people to undertake programs to make the workplace more effective, I've always listened to my people and considered their opinions even if I eventually disagree with them and don't go down that path.

How you get that relationship back with QF I'm not certain, but I suggest that sticking to what you are currently defining as job security is unlikely to get you what you really want.

5th Jun 2011, 04:55

Please explain, what it is, you think our job security claim is?

5th Jun 2011, 05:07
how would all LAMEs like it if they had to buy Australian made cars?Yes I do own Australian cars, have all my driving life!

Ever bought a book off Amazon instead of your local bookshop?No, Never!

That's the one thing you probably won't ever get (job security)Jetconnect pilots apparently have!

Scheduled turnarounds in less timeDone that, proved 767 A ck turnaround can be regularly achieved in 16 hrs or less at SYD Base.