Saudia

[Top gun pilot 797]

Time to bail out.
For all ....!!!

[Chocks Away]

Many have, are about to or are planning to!
Not many contract renewals taken up for the non-disclosed; unclear & ambiguous "new contract". Those that have are fully utilising the 2 months notice period. It appears SV are about to have a very serious crew shortage issue but are blinded by their fracture & poor mismanagement & arogance.
Last one, turn out the lights please.

[Flyboy_SG]

20-10 is offered only to the expats who have leave balance. Else 5 days off + 5 days reserve.


We got to wait and watch the game, local cadet induction, fleet transfers and upgrades are going in full swing though.

[mutt]

Who is going to fly the -8F? Regular crews or contracted?

[kungfu panda]

Any truth to the rumour that contracts are not being renewed for the over 58's? And that any contract renewal now is only for 1 year?

In line with full saudiization by the end of 2020.

[TU.VN.CI.EY]

Any truth to the rumour that contracts are not being renewed for the over 58's? And that any contract renewal now is only for 1 year?

In line with full saudiization by the end of 2020.
The Rumor is a Fact!!!

[mutt]

Now I remember why I hate consultants.

[Top gun pilot 797]

A Yemeni long range ballistic missle fires at the Riyadh Airport.
Apparently intercepted by the Saudi defense system. But pics/bp videos on ground and blasts heard say otherwise.
Looks like it made a hit on the remote bays ... ��
Too army however to tell yet.
But I think this is a sign from the heavens ... ☠️

[Dubaian]

Too early however to tell yet.
But I think this is a sign from the heavens

FIFY

And the Crown Prince has fired half the KSA Govt & the Lebanese PM has resigned ( in Riyadh) ----- we do live in interesting times. Stay safe you guys who have to go there

[atakacs]

Seems that there is major turmoil in the country.

Any impact (yet?) on day to day operations

[metro301]

Seems that there is major turmoil in the country.

Any impact (yet?) on day to day operations

Zero impact.... Zero Turmoil.

[zerograv]

Saudi Prince Killed in Helicopter Crash near Yemen Border

Local newspaper Okaz reported the helicopter carrying Prince Mansour bin Muqrin Al Saud, deputy governor of Asir province, went down while the officials were taking a tour of an area near the coast in Asir, which borders Yemen.

Just an unfortunate coincidence of events ... or is there more into it ? ...

[Flaperon777]

I hear that all expats contracrpts henceforth will be terminated ( not renewed ) on reaching their natural completion.
Of course these are baseless rumors until I actually see or meet a pilot whose contract hasn't been renewed.
But any truth in this ?
Pray tell

[polax52]

I hear that all expats contracrpts henceforth will be terminated ( not renewed ) on reaching their natural completion.
Of course these are baseless rumors until I actually see or meet a pilot whose contract hasn't been renewed.
But any truth in this ?
Pray tell

I believe that the problem is, for the expats, that the company expresses no clear position towards us. Are we staying or are we going?

The reality is that foreign Pilots working for Saudia is a political hot potato. The country is at a very sensitive moment. It was previously stated by the company that all expat Pilots would be gone by 2020 and to give contracts beyond 2020 is not currently tenable.

[Semaphore Sam]

I hired on in June '78; we were told there would be no expat crew left by the beginning of 1981. Sam

[azhkman]

I hired on in June '78; we were told there would be no expat crew left by the beginning of 1981. Sam

My parents both worked for Saudia in Jeddah from the early '70s to the late '80s and I recall my dad saying Nationalization was coming to the airline around 1987/88.

I just don't think it is possible in the Kingdom especially with the training involved to become a pilot at the commercial air transport level, combined with the low level of interest from actual Saudis.

[Romasik]

I see it’s actually coming this time, although couple of years ago it didn’t look possible. Push from the highest level is strong. Plus CCQ which makes things naturally faster.
There may be some short time backtrack when they see aircraft parked because of the crew shortage, but the general direction is clear and technlogy for that is already around. First officers will definitely go first, followed by seniour captains (offered 40k basic salary contract or just restricted by age), then the rest.
It’s already happening. New low basic salary contract is offered at least to seniour captains and it’s only one year long despite proposed two. You cannot plan to stay in this job beyond one year horizon.
Consider also the general Saudi economic downturn and new more efficient companies on the market.
It’s time to pack bags. Saudia glorious expat story is history...

[polax52]

I see it’s actually coming this time, although couple of years ago it didn’t look possible. Push from the highest level is strong. Plus CCQ which makes things naturally faster.
There may be some short time backtrack when they see aircraft parked because of the crew shortage, but the general direction is clear and technlogy for that is already around. First officers will definitely go first, followed by seniour captains (offered 40k basic salary contract or just restricted by age), then the rest.
It’s already happening. New low basic salary contract is offered at least to seniour captains and it’s only one year long despite proposed two. You cannot plan to stay in this job beyond one year horizon.
Consider also the general Saudi economic downturn and new more efficient companies on the market.
It’s time to pack bags. Saudia glorious expat story is history...

I think that it's very difficult to understand what they really want. Certainly they want to Saudiize the company as soon as possible. However I don't think that Saudia can produce more that 100 or so new Captains each year. The company currently receives one new aircraft every 10 days, each requiring 8-10 Captains. They also want to expand Flyadeal to 50 aircraft by 2020. They do need the Pilots they have.

I believe that there has been a lot of frustration in senior management with the expat Pilots regarding the Riyadh base. They see a lack of cooperation. A lot of apartments in Riyadh, rented by Saudia are unfilled. There is also frustration over the number of applications to Flyadeal.

In the end, my opinion of the way the Management are thinking is that the contract Pilots currently employed are either at the wrong base or in the wrong company. Saudia have enough Saudi "Saudia" Pilots based in Jeddah, they don't require contract Pilots for that role.

[Flaperon777]

I see it’s actually coming this time, although couple of years ago it didn’t look possible. Push from the highest level is strong. Plus CCQ which makes things naturally faster.
There may be some short time backtrack when they see aircraft parked because of the crew shortage, but the general direction is clear and technlogy for that is already around. First officers will definitely go first, followed by seniour captains (offered 40k basic salary contract or just restricted by age), then the rest.
It’s already happening. New low basic salary contract is offered at least to seniour captains and it’s only one year long despite proposed two. You cannot plan to stay in this job beyond one year horizon.
Consider also the general Saudi economic downturn and new more efficient companies on the market.
It’s time to pack bags. Saudia glorious expat story is history...

Romasik. Just a quick question.
Are you PERSONALLY aware of anyone who has been offered or who has signed the shortened contract or two year contract? Or is it simply rumours that you are quoting. Just curious.

[Romasik]

Romasik. Just a quick question.
Are you PERSONALLY aware of anyone who has been offered or who has signed the shortened contract or two year contract? Or is it simply rumours that you are quoting. Just curious.
Absolutely! One of my friends was just offered this 40.000 SAR basic salary one year contract. He is over 60 Gregorian thought. It may not apply to younger pilots. Not sure.
More then that, there are actually about 60 of them! Looks like different age groups, as it would be too much to have that big number of seniors only. I saw the list with their names in HR, when I went there to ask about my personal future. They didn’t even understand what I was talking about, as they were obviously overwhelmed with their current problem with these 60 guys.
The biggest issue at the moment is the end of the service money, which is based on the last basic salary. It was advised by the highest Fl Ops mangement not sign this new contract until they sort out how to pay the final exit bonus.
And just today I heard that two expat captains in their forties were not offered the new contract. This may be some personal issues, I guess, but it’s happening now and here. This job is not secure any more.

[polax52]

Absolutely! One of my friends was just offered this 40.000 SAR basic salary one year contract. He is over 60 Gregorian thought. It may not apply to younger pilots. Not sure.
More then that, there are actually about 60 of them! Looks like different age groups, as it would be too much to have that big number of seniors only. I saw the list with their names in HR, when I went there to ask about my personal future. They didn’t even understand what I was talking about, as they were obviously overwhelmed with their current problem with these 60 guys.
The biggest issue at the moment is the end of the service money, which is based on the last basic salary. It was advised by the highest Fl Ops mangement not sign this new contract until they sort out how to pay the final exit bonus.
And just today I heard that two expat captains in their forties were not offered the new contract. This may be some personal issues, I guess, but it’s happening now and here. This job is not secure any more.


There were reasons other than Saudiization behind the younger guys not having their contracts renewed. Certainly one of them. Let's just say that they will no longer tolerate "no shows" or anything equivalent in severity.

[TJ Steele]

Any pprune members working there? Any inside info on hiring policy, minimums, equipment etc? I am a CRJ F/O a breath from being furloughed. Just weighing different options.

It’s an interesting time in the Kingdom, but the airline is in chaos for expats. Forced base transfers to RUH without the compensation stated in company manual, no overtime (which is where you make the real money), and everything is focused on cutting costs. 106 resignations in the last two weeks, including locals.

[Romasik]

It’s an interesting time in the Kingdom, but the airline is in chaos for expats. Forced base transfers to RUH without the compensation stated in company manual, no overtime (which is where you make the real money), and everything is focused on cutting costs. 106 resignations in the last two weeks, including locals.
Also heard about 100 or so resignations. Everybody I talked to is actively looking for another job. It may not eventually materialize for some, but at the moment most of the guys are in a bailout mode. Many are already done with interviews and waiting for the job offer.
From the other hand the workforce reduction should not be that much painful as the passenger traffic is inevitably dropping. Expat numbers are already down by almost 2 million and by the end of 2018 is expected to reach 2.8. Saudis are also not flying much due to financial difficulties. You can see all this slowdown on streets of Jeddah and in Tahlia shops on weekends. They are far cry from the best days.
Looks like at least on Fl Ops level nobody is taking it into consideration yet. The planning is going as usual. But flights are being cancelled on daily basis with new aircraft keep coming and training going ahead, thus no overtime. I guess it will stabilize after some time on lower level probably with some aircraft orders cancellation.

[mutt]

@flaperon777, just saw someone’s extension that was for 6 months, but under the old terms and conditions.

[Flaperon777]

Thanks Mutt.
May I request his age if possible.
Thanks.

[mutt]

On his 2nd extension, so just above 60.

[Flaperon777]

What do you make of this ...

https://www.reuters.com/article/saudi-airlines-saudia/interview-saudia-targets-earlier-return-to-profit-possible-wide-body-jet-order-idUKL8N1NR4M5


Saudi returning to PROFIT ....????!!!!
��

[mutt]

Chinese airlines court disgruntled Cathay Pacific pilots with sky-high salaries | Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/node/1198451/business-economy)

Maybe they should come to Jeddah, I believe that they will find a lot of interested people

[2Bad2Sad]

I worked for Saudia for many years, 2 times.
Was a great company back in the early 90's Flying and in FCGT early 2004-2006, after that and Phuket Air Saudia flights, which was sever dangerous , Ha Ha
Did some Air Atlanta flights also for Saudia.
Mutt can probably guess who I am Ha Ha.
Sad to read so many problems there now.
Saudia was the best of the best back in those days.
Hope they get it together soon, will always look back at Saudia as best choice I ever made .
But even the locals I worked for in FCGT was professional just no or little flying experience.
Felt like I was FCGT manual revision person.
Best of luck Saudia , thanks for the good memories.

[mutt]

Mutt can probably guess who I am Ha Ha. Yep, I can..... not too many FCGT guys who were young enough to fly.

[Flaperon777]

If the guys had any sense, or gumption, they would get themselves together as a negotiation group and market themselves to the highest/ best bidder, similar to what our MAS colleagues did when Saudi went to KL looking a few years ago.

I Would tend to COMPLETELY agree with that statement !!

[mutt]

Whats the story with the -8F's, are they coming back with Saudia crew or contractors?

I heard a funny story that cargo now want to lease back the MD-11's after they were sold.

[Flyboy_SG]

Yes It's happening. But as far as I see, they are going to let go people and going to run into serious shortage very soon.

[polax52]

Yes It's happening. But as far as I see, they are going to let go people and going to run into serious shortage very soon.

I agree....

This China group thing (good idea in theory) won't work. The Chinese have too many legal restrictions on Pilots e.g. they won't hire Malaysian Pilots, they won't hire African Pilots or Pilots born in Africa. The medical screening is extremely complicated. The simulator screening is also very tricky and designed to fail a very high percentage. China is very much an individual thing, it works very well for a few but for the vast majority it doesn't work. It is for this reason that wages are pushed so high in China as Airlines compete for the very few Pilots who can make it work.

[mutt]

1 year and 6 months contracts rescinded, people getting called back to sign 2 year contracts.

[LNAV VNAV -]

Gulf Air did this kind of thing in the past, getting rid of expats in a frenzy, paying huge compensations in the process. A few months later they started cancelling leave and a couple of months later they started hiring expats again.

[mutt]

Resignations are reported to be in the region of 130-140..... thats over 20% of the expat flight deck in the last 3 months.

[Flaperon777]

130-140 pilots ....????!!!! Wow !
Wonder where they'd be headed. I presume these numbers include Egyptians and Malaysians also?

[Flyboy_SG]

There is a meeting coming up in RUH compound to address issues with expats, GM F and COO are gona be present. With not many takers for RUH base(amongst locals), they are afraid that there will be a mass exodus. Fact is that they need us.

Especially with their herculean training regime. IMHO expats are here for a while and its going to be hard for them to get rid of them completely.

[polax52]

There is a meeting coming up in RUH compound to address issues with expats, GM F and COO are gona be present. With not many takers for RUH base(amongst locals), they are afraid that there will be a mass exodus. Fact is that they need us.

Especially with their herculean training regime. IMHO expats are here for a while and its going to be hard for them to get rid of them completely.

Apart from the fear of mass exodus, basically that was what was said at the meeting. F/O's good to 2022. No upgrade ever though.

[aerodestination]

I recently saw some recruitment that is going on for Air Atlanta 747 SO Jeddah based. So this is primarily for the Saudia operations.

does anyone have some info regarding this SO position? TR bonding, salary, rostering etc?

And how is the mood there? I read that a lot of people are leaving saudia, is this the same for Atlanta?

[mutt]

Read the clauses on contract termination. It can be terminated without cause at any time with four months notice.

That was always there, so nothing has changed in the written form. However the "caring employer" is no more.
I was chatting to a GM last night who will be massively affected by the huge crew losses, he was oblivious to the fact that so many had resigned. He was also of the impression that crews would love Riyadh once they moved there, I asked him how many of his staff would resign if they were moved to Riyadh, once he thought of that he changed the subject.

With the opening of the new terminal and the planned increase in operations, the loss of 160 mainly Captains plus the annual retirements, next summer looks as if it will be a unmitigated disaster.

[argentina21]

That was always there, so nothing has changed in the written form. However the "caring employer" is no more.
I was chatting to a GM last night who will be massively affected by the huge crew losses, he was oblivious to the fact that so many had resigned. He was also of the impression that crews would love Riyadh once they moved there, I asked him how many of his staff would resign if they were moved to Riyadh, once he thought of that he changed the subject.

With the opening of the new terminal and the planned increase in operations, the loss of 160 mainly Captains plus the annual retirements, next summer looks as if it will be a unmitigated disaster.

This scenario should help them clear the backlog of Saudi FOs waiting for upgrade and, as a result, help with their Saudization goals.

[Flyboy_SG]

Don’t be fooled by the two year contract. The two year term means very little.

Read the clauses on contract termination. It can be terminated without cause at any time with four months notice.

Consequently, how’s that going to be any different than the six month contract recently offered? Even with the two year term they can have you out of the door with just four months notice.

Don’t delude yourselves. Flight Operations have telegraphed their true intentions towards the expat Flight Deck Crew by the “couldn’t care less” approach they’ve recently shown by forcing RUH base without choice and with total disregard, almost contempt, for expat’s family life, schooling obligations for the kids, etc,etc.

Well, I say they can go f**k themselves! They deserve what’s coming their way!

You are right VAMY but this time it’s only 2 months notice in the New contract !!!

[Flyboy_SG]

I haven’t seen it myself too. But I was told it is 2 months notice , for all contract renewals.

[mutt]

Another 30 A320 guys forced based to Riyadh starting 01 Feb...... Will the last person in Jeddah please turn off the lights.

[metro301]

Whats the seniority (year) of the most senior?

Got it... around seniority 11012xxx

[ironbutt57]

on another note, the famous faker is seen to be there, 330 Capt....good luck with him

[mutt]

We all know that you are talking about GBA, but to be fair, he did pass the Saudia 330 training in about 6 weeks which is close to a record.

[ironbutt57]

We all know that you are talking about GBA, but to be fair, he did pass the Saudia 330 training in about 6 weeks which is close to a record.

well thats impressive, there was an Eastern bloke that aso "passed the training" for 20 years, until it was discovered he didnt have a license, where do you think an insurance claim would have left them???

passing the training make it ok?

[Romasik]

We all know that you are talking about GBA, but to be fair, he did pass the Saudia 330 training in about 6 weeks which is close to a record.

I don’t think it can describe qualifications properly. I’m sure you remember the guy from 747 classic who was asked to resign some 10 years ago after insisting to call FAA inspectors in JFK to inspect AIU after inbound crew hit taxi lights in Ostend. He passed his initial Saudia training with best recommendations. And later proved he was just plane dangerous. He was also famous by using his brother’s log book to show his qualifications.
Regarding the above mentioned person you better ask first officers who share the same cockpit with him...

[Romasik]

I get your point about asking First Officers that have flown with him. Their opinion may be germane.

However, if you're insinuating he's danergous, then he's not alone. He's in good company! There are plenty that fit description in the airline!
Well, this is the only way, and this is where I got information from. Quite a few of them.
It’s always good to be in a good company:). I could be one of them. Have no idea what they think about me:)

[argentina21]

“At present, [Saudia] flies close to 30 million travellers annually. By 2020, just three years from now, it is confident that figure will have grown by 50%, to 45 million, said Saleh bin Nasser Al-Jasser, the Saudi Arabian Airlines’ director-general.

“Those additional passengers will be carried by a rapidly expanding fleet, he explained at Airbus’ Finkenwerder assembly plant in Hamburg, Germany.

“Speaking as he accepted the first Airbus A320ceo for the group’s new low-cost carrier, Flyadeal, he noted that when Saudia started its ‘transformation plan’ in 2015, it operated 117 aircraft. By the end of 2020, that figure will have grown to 200. It received no fewer than 28 new aircraft in 2016 and plans to take a further 32 into its inventory this year.

The rest of the article can be found here:

Arabian Aerospace - Saudia aims low for a high return (http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/saudia-aims-low-for-a-high-return.html)

[Capt_CheeseDick]

Yeh right. He's dreaming :ugh:
Where does he expect to get the pilots, especially considering the 140 resignations these last few months; the contract changes (no bonus etc etc); forced re-basings and "hello..." there's a global pilot shortage on at the moment :}

[mutt]

I love this line.....

However, it was very difficult to set a target for staff numbers when the airline was growing so quickly, he said.

[mutt]

GE90

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4695/39789885991_8f4eb1f91d.jpg

[777AV8R]

That’s expensive!

[mutt]

Its from AKN and appears to have happened last week.

[VAMY]

Thank you Mutt. What on earth would cause damage like that? Maybe it ingested a mechanic's tool or something? Possibly a rock or some other form of substantial FOD? Anyways, it looks like a very expensive repair!

[mutt]

As it's a -200, I'm sure that they will just push into the dirt and leave it there.

[Flaperon777]

Yeh right. He's dreaming :ugh:
Where does he expect to get the pilots, especially considering the 140 resignations these last few months; the contract changes (no bonus etc etc); forced re-basings and "hello..." there's a global pilot shortage on at the moment :}

Well said. And the way the pilots are being treated by the sadly incompetent HR and it's own flight operations department, it's not long before Saudia will have to ground a load of airplanes due lack of pilots to fly them. And sadly, by the time the pilots leave, Saudia will have such a bad name that it would fail to attract any new talent. And with expats as well as locals leaving, that would be the end of the end for SV.
To recover it has to start treating it's pilots with more respect and better conditions. Look at EK for example. They can pay in gold coins and pilots still won't join up. That's how bad a reputation can get !
As per a recent study conducted, EK had 28 airplanes grounded in end 2018 due pilot shortage. And SV already had 13 on ground.
Of course the reasons stated ere anything but pilot shortage :\ .

Saudi needs to pull up its stockings !
And start respecting its Jet Drivers...:cool:

[mutt]

And SV already had 13 on ground.

Which aircraft? I don't see any of the present fleet grounded, just aircraft like the 777-200 and E170.

[VAMY]

Cheesey Dick,

Are those 140 resignations you mentioned truly confirmed or did some rescind their resignations when HR were forced to increase the contract renewal tenure offers from six months to two years for everybody?

[Flaperon777]

Which aircraft? I don't see any of the present fleet grounded, just aircraft like the 777-200 and E170.

The grounded airplanes won't be for you to 'see'.
They would either be used as Christmas trees for temporary cannibalisation of parts or flights would simply be cancelled eg freighter 777 flights or then simply parked in Riyadh undergoing some 'major' check. Who is to ask.
Info is from a very well reputed international business house that specialises in studies and viabilities of major companies.

Make your own judgements.

[Jack330]

Even the brand new 747/8 was grounded... It’s parked in Jed, covered in sand ! They say it’ll fly soon again

[metro301]

The 777F and 747-8F were parked years back for business decisions not for lack of crew.

140 expat departures are rumour. I personally, have not met one that has submitted a resignation. Of course some people might be holding their cards close to the chest.

15 KSA nationals have resigned for other local companies. I have met some of these fellows personally.

They have brought back retired pilots to fly 330.

[metro301]

The grounded airplanes won't be for you to 'see'.
They would either be used as Christmas trees for temporary cannibalisation of parts

Pretty dificult to hide an action like that when we are taxiing past the maintenance hangers literally every single day.

There is no area 51

[Chocks Away]

"140 resignations..."
It's likely more now but is true. I heard it directly from HR and saw all the paperwork cluttering the desks to go with it. That was over a 3 month period back before Christmas when contracts where savaged. How many have changed their mind and stayed I don't know but every expat pilot I came across back then was either going or had gone... Saudi City was changing demographic very quickly & not for the better. Very few Malays now remain and Greeks. A lot of Egyptians are being enticed back home too.

P.s. Metro, have a look out behind the Royal Maintenance Hangar between 34C & 34R. That's full.

[metro301]

Chocks - Good point, I forgot about that spot. Will try and look next time through.

[mutt]

Looking at google earth, they appear to be E170's, A300's, 777's and maybe some L1011's, plus or two corporate jets

[Flaperon777]

Pretty dificult to hide an action like that when we are taxiing past the maintenance hangers literally every single day.

There is no area 51

3 789's have not flown for over 2 months. One being the latest. I can give you registrations.
6 772's are similarly grounded but for parts.
2 773's for parts too.
11 320/330's haven't see flight in over 12 weeks.

You do the math.

[777AV8R]

Well, the parking of aircraft for parts is nothing new. I flew for SV and was on the initial course for the 777s in 97. Within the first 2 months, we had several aircraft being dispatched with brakes inoperative. Interestingly, we didn't have 'the special tool' to allow for us not having to go through the performance related decrements. So, we had to calculate the geardown penalties. Not long after, new aircraft arrived and were subsequently parked in the dirt at the south...scavenged for parts. It doesn't sound like much has changed in the 20 years since.

[returnofthemack]

It's must be a gift from God to get the opportunity to go work for Saudi, no.

[Capt_CheeseDick]

Another B773 tail-scrape on takeoff outbound for JFK "apparently"... finally turned back passing Rome :rolleyes: Four habibis in the pointy end.
How many is that now? :hmm:

[Jack330]

When did it happen? Any extra info about this ?

[Old Boeing Driver]

This one happened back in December. Has there been another?

Incident: Saudia B773 at Jeddah on Dec 9th 2017, tail strike indication (http://avherald.com/h?article=4b2257dc)

[Flyboy_SG]

Things are just getting ugly day by day. Doesn’t look good at all.
They are taking expats for granted and changing the t&c the way they like.

[Chocks Away]

Old Boeing - yes additional to the above one plus a few others in 2017 and many other incidents... wheels falling off A330's... the list goes on. Yes SG and just watch the insurance premium climb as the expats depart and safety decreases. :hmm:
Happy Landings :ok:

[Romasik]

Old Boeing - yes additional to the above one plus a few others in 2017 and many other incidents... wheels falling off A330's... the list goes on. Yes SG and just watch the insurance premium climb as the expats depart and safety decreases. :hmm:
Happy Landings :ok:
In the previous tailstrike an expat was equally involved...

[birdy340]

3 789's have not flown for over 2 months. One being the latest. I can give you registrations.
6 772's are similarly grounded but for parts.
2 773's for parts too.
11 320/330's haven't see flight in over 12 weeks.

You do the math.
a few hundred meters away...the desert....is waiting for them!!

[mutt]

It appears that our previously discussed "Captain" has now placed "Doctor" in front of his name and convinced the company that this should be shown in the crew list :)

I will be the first to congratulate him on his new doctorate, from Harvard, I believe.

[Swanrider]

Romasik - What Chocks is talking about is a third time in which The Manufacturer has called back the aircraft to Land (!)in the previous years, after an incident unreported. An extremely serious trend of denial in this company and I'm not talking about the huge river to it's West.

[VAMY]

It appears that our previously discussed "Captain" has now placed "Doctor" in front of his name and convinced the company that this should be shown in the crew list :)

I will be the first to congratulate him on his new doctorate, from Harvard, I believe.

Has he really become a Doctor? If so what’s his specialty? I expect it’s proctology? If so, then I’ve got a very serious case of the “Farmer Giles” I wouldn’t mind him taking a good look at!

Do you think he might be interested in providing a consultation?

[FromEarToEar]

Waz up folks! I’m reading your replies here and I understand that SV is going to stop dealing with expats , isn’t it?
I have lots of questions and no answers. Is anyone here who working for any Saudi carrier ?
What kind of license do they need ?just icao, faa or easa is preferable ? Can’t find it on web site.
Is it possible now to get job as FO 320 there, I mean any Saudi carrier not only SV?
What about flynas and Flyadeal ?
I need your recommendations my friends😢

[FromEarToEar]

@EartoEar,

Following recent changes in government policy, expats are being actively encouraged to leave the Kingdom. The same government policy has mandated Saudisation. This means that nearly all expats will be replaced eventually. The governments intention is that the sooner this can be achieved, the better.

Their is also a government sponsored Flight Deck Cadet training program, which is turning out thousands of Saudi National First Officers as time goes by. Realisticly speaking, these cadets will fill the great majority of future First Officer vacancies with the Saudi based airlines.

Saudia, the national carrier, now has a policy of NOT recruiting ANY expat First Officers & ALL expat Flight Deck Crew recruitment stopped over a year ago. The existing expat First Officers, who were hired on the expectation of upgrades in due course, based on seniority, have recently been told that they will NEVER be upgraded. Furthermore,mNO expat First Officer will be allowed to be employed beyond a maximum age of 60 years. Many senior, older, expat First Officers are having their employment contracts terminated, in line with the above mentioned government policy. In reality ALL expat First Officers will be gone from the national airline in the near future, probably by 2020 at the latest, with expat Captains expected to follow soon after. The maximum tenure for expat Captains will not likely be longer than 2023-2025.

As far as I know FlyNas is NOT recruiting expat First Officers.

However, FlyAdeal may be actively recruiting.

Thank you my friend...
it’s so sad 😞

[alby2000]

Hello Gents,
I recently flew with a Senior SV Captain that was positioning with us.
He was mentioning that there is a plan to restart the 777-200s after extensive D checks and that also the 747-8 freighters, along with the 4 777F, should come back on line after some setbacks they had with one of the wet lease operators. The way I understand it is that they might reopen (in the near future and for a limited period of time) the recruitment of expat pilots to man the new additions to the fleet so at the end of the day all hopes are not gone yet.... :ok:

[mutt]

However, FlyAdeal may be actively recruiting. They have interviewed quite a number of expat SVA crew, so it will be interesting to see how many move there.

[Flyboy_SG]

There is no flying for the existing crew... why’d they need additional?
But they seem to be hell bent upon not giving over time. So they would rather hire more pilots and keep them below 78 credit:ugh: In their opinion, this is cheaper than to pay overtime...:D

[VAMY]

Hello Gents,
I recently flew with a Senior SV Captain that was positioning with us.
He was mentioning that there is a plan to restart the 777-200s after extensive D checks and that also the 747-8 freighters, along with the 4 777F, should come back on line after some setbacks they had with one of the wet lease operators. The way I understand it is that they might reopen (in the near future and for a limited period of time) the recruitment of expat pilots to man the new additions to the fleet so at the end of the day all hopes are not gone yet.... :ok:

@alby2000,

The senior SV Captain you spoke to is clearly either deluded, misinformed or basically talking crap.

The B747-8F’s are mandated back into service by higher authority than the SV management. The logic being that it’s better to recoup some of the expense of purchase by flying them for Saudia Cargo, rather than pay out for an ACMI operator to fly the cargo. The same is true for the B777F’s. However, the reintroduction of these aircraft back into service will definitely NOT require ANY recruitment of expat Flight Deck Crew. The required crews are easily provided for within the existing work force. Whoever told you that is either talking out of the back of his head or his ass, most likely the latter.

It’s very unlikely that Saudia will be employing expat Flight Deck Crew anytime in the near future. They have more than sufficient Saudi National Flight Deck Crew to man the current operation. The only thing that might change this is when the airline moves to the new Jeddah Airport Terminal. That should create the opportunity for much for better optimisation of aircraft, leading to the opportunity for greater utilization. This may lead to more flights, both in terms of increased frequency & possibly some new destinations. It’s also a certainty, that should this opportunity occur, it will definitely NOT have been thought of in advance, or planned for, by the very inept and incompetent Saudi Flight Operations Management, most of whom could find their ass with both hands if they were already sitting on the crapper. This lack of foresight & advanced planning, which is de rigeur within Flight Operations management, might lead to a short term shortage of Flight Deck Crew.

[VAMY]

Thank you my friend...
it’s so sad 😞

@EarToEar,

I stand slightly corrected.

FlyNas are currently recruiting for a few A330 Captains & A330 First Officers to crew a couple of A330’s that are expected to added to the operation soon.

[mutt]

VAMY, what have your heard about Air Atlanta and ACT losing their contracts?

As for FlyNas, I assume the 330 will be Umrah aircraft rather than scheduled like the last time.

[FromEarToEar]

@EarToEar,

I stand slightly corrected.

FlyNas are currently recruiting for a few A330 Captains & A330 First Officers to crew a couple of A330’s that are expected to added to the operation soon.

Its good ofc but if personally speaking about me then I’m just 320rated and I don’t think they need me
I just want to know if there is a chance to get in stream and move to KSA. I don’t care about money or socials

[VAMY]

VAMY, what have your heard about Air Atlanta and ACT losing their contracts?

As for FlyNas, I assume the 330 will be Umrah aircraft rather than scheduled like the last time.

What I’ve heard is only rumour & conjecture. There seems to be two rumours circulating.

One rumour is that their commercial operation for Saudia has been put in question, by either GACA or SV Safety & Quality, following an audit that found Air Atlanta woefully lacking. This rumour is not without substance as there have been rumors circulating for sometime now that EASA were closely looking at Air Atlanta’s Operations, mainly because they have concerns about airworthiness & maintenance issues.

The other rumour is that the Icelandic regulatory authority has suspended Air Atlanta’s Icelandic AOC following allegations/proof that the airline were involved in the “carriage of munitions & weapons of war”, more commonly known as “Gun Running” or “ Arms Smuggling”. This activity I believe is contrary to the Icelandic Air Navigation Order, unless special approval is granted by the relevant competent authority. In this case that would have to be the Icelandic authority, as that is the authority/jurisdiction in which the airline is based, their aircraft are registered under and their AOC issued under. I can’t see why, under any circumstances, that the Icelandic authorities would need to be granting that type of approval. In fact I can’t even remember the last time the Icelandic’s were involved in any sort of “armed conflict”, unless of course you go all the way back in history to the time of the Vikings. If my history serves me correctly, there may have been some rape, pillage and skirmish activity involved back then but nothing requiring the use of automatic weapons, depleted uranium artillary shells or the like. However, Air Atlanta’s main customer certainly has a requirement for that type of cargo & indeed their own B747-8F’s have been used to transport that particular type of cargo on more than one occasion.

Coincidentally, a well trodden career path for B747-400 Flight Deck Crew leaving the employ of Air Atlanta is to move to Silkway West, whose rapid expansion as a B747-400/B747-8F cargo operator is closely linked to the supply of “weapons & munitions of war” to the Assad/Putin side of the Syrian war/conflict.

As for the FlyNas A330’s and their useage? Who knows, may be there’ll be deployed in the transport of some Vikings to assist in the conflict in Yemen?

Anyways, they’re just rumours, as yet to be verified as scurrilous or otherwise.

[UdD]

Hi everybody, i tried to find out but maybe missed and couldn't see.
nowadays i am thinking about to go QR or Saudia. is there anybody can inform me about first officer life in Saudia ?
basic salary
extras
overtime payments etc. ?
thanks.

[Romasik]

Hi everybody, i tried to find out but maybe missed and couldn't see.
nowadays i am thinking about to go QR or Saudia. is there anybody can inform me about first officer life in Saudia ?
basic salary
extras
overtime payments etc. ?
thanks.
Is Saudia hiring???

[Swanrider]

More Yemeni missiles hitting Riyadh thurs/fri I heard but I haven't seen in Western media yet.
Any crew hurt/effected?
Quite worrying when all expats had a forced base reallocation to Riyadh. :uhoh:

[UdD]

Is Saudia hiring???
well , i just heard some gossip about it. not sure :rolleyes:

[VAMY]

Hi everybody, i tried to find out but maybe missed and couldn't see.
nowadays i am thinking about to go QR or Saudia. is there anybody can inform me about first officer life in Saudia ?
basic salary
extras
overtime payments etc. ?
thanks.

Hi UdD,

Saudia is definitely NOT hiring any expat First Officers. Not now & not anytime soon, NOR is it hiring any expatriate Captains. The days of Saudia hiring expat Flight Deck Crew are over. Saudi’s only from here onwards.

In reality they’re retiring many of the more senior expat First Officers who were promised for years an upgrade in seniority order only to find that when their number came up that upgrades are for Saudi’s only. What’s more, many had their contracts cut short or not renewed.

[777AV8R]

Nope. Nothing has changed from when I worked there 15-20 years ago. Hollow promises.

[Flyboy_SG]

Hi everybody, i tried to find out but maybe missed and couldn't see.
nowadays i am thinking about to go QR or Saudia. is there anybody can inform me about first officer life in Saudia ?
basic salary
extras
overtime payments etc. ?
thanks.


Reminds me of this joke. When someone advertised “Wife Wanted “
Many replied ‘ Take mine ! ‘ :ugh:

[Flyboy_SG]

Nope. Nothing has changed from when I worked there 15-20 years ago. Hollow promises.


No. it’s definitely changed. 4 years down the lane there won’t be any expat FOs for sure. This never happened 15 yrs ago.

[metro301]

Actually, all the Expat FOs got kicked sometime between 1999-2002. (maybe a bit earlier)...

None were brought back until 2006

[mutt]

Almost correct Metro301, they had 9, 8 on the Classic and one in SFS, then they started rehiring with Classic guys but in small numbers.

[Python27]

Saudia is offering now a short term contract for 330 skippers, 15 k net on the pocket, 20 on 10 off and other "benefits" on the contract...

[metro301]

Almost correct Metro301, they had 9, 8 on the Classic and one in SFS, then they started rehiring with Classic guys but in small numbers.


Thanks Mutt, I stand corrected, I now recall a handful of folks remaining back then.

[Morgan S.P]

Saudia is offering now a short term contract for 330 skippers, 15 k net on the pocket, 20 on 10 off and other "benefits" on the contract...
I would appreciate more info.
Where can I find this new offer???
is this only for already 330 TR Capt. or wide body Capt can apply for???
What are the other benefits???

Regards

[Python27]

I would appreciate more info.
Where can I find this new offer???
is this only for already 330 TR Capt. or wide body Capt can apply for???
What are the other benefits???

Regards

Check FCI's website (Flight Crew Internacional)

Cheers

[Flyboy_SG]

Actually, all the Expat FOs got kicked sometime between 1999-2002. (maybe a bit earlier)...

None were brought back until 2006


oh ! Hopefully they’ll succeed this time.

[mutt]

@Morgan.... you appear to have PM's and emails selected off.

200 planes by 2020 appears to be a fallacy, even if you consider the FlyADeal fleet. The crews just aren't available. The new airport is open but just for one destination a day.

[polax52]

@Morgan.... you appear to have PM's and emails selected off.

200 planes by 2020 appears to be a fallacy, even if you consider the FlyADeal fleet. The crews just aren't available. The new airport is open but just for one destination a day.

The Flyadeal fleet is not considered in that 200 either. Obviously it is impossible. They have managed to enlarge the fleet from 121 to about 138 (currently operating) aircraft since 2013. That's with the training center at full capacity and using expats that take half the training time.

They currently have sufficient Saudi's to crew 108 aircraft. How can you increase that number by 92 aircraft in 2 years? Sorry, I forgot, drag cadets in off the street, that'll resolve the problem.:hmm:

[Morgan S.P]

The Flyadeal fleet is not considered in that 200 either. Obviously it is impossible. They have managed to enlarge the fleet from 121 to about 138 (currently operating) aircraft since 2013. That's with the training center at full capacity and using expats that take half the training time.

They currently have sufficient Saudi's to crew 108 aircraft. How can you increase that number by 92 aircraft in 2 years? Sorry, I forgot, drag cadets in off the street, that'll resolve the problem.:hmm:

I heard tha SV just got 30 777-300ER options from EK. Any inside info????
If true, are this 30 to add or replace the fleet???
Any option SV will open for expact DEC B777 20/10 roster in the next year due this 30 aircraft??
On 20/10 roster is school allowance ovearseas available?

[polax52]

I heard tha SV just got 30 777-300ER options from EK. Any inside info????
If true, are this 30 to add or replace the fleet???
Any option SV will open for expact DEC B777 20/10 roster in the next year due this 30 aircraft??
On 20/10 roster is school allowance ovearseas available?

If what you've heard is true then the answer to all those questions is possibly.

They don't want to hire foreign pilots though. For your questions to be answered in the affirmative, they'll have to be very short.

[Flyboy_SG]

May be they'll start hiring after the 30th 777 joins the fleet.
77 Sims are only used for recurrent training, there is no intial training happening now.

But as of now, I don't think they are making use of all the 77s.

[DC10/767]

No more expatriate hiring and they will reduce salaries. No productivity and many other points from october 2018. Confirmed.

[metro301]

No more expatriate hiring and they will reduce salaries. No productivity and many other points from october 2018. Confirmed.

Gotta raise the BS flag on this one.

They have not hired expats for almost two years, so no change there.

As for salary reduction, they are short on all equipment. Highly unlikely to reduce salary in the middle of shortages.

[DC10/767]

I wish I am wrong. I flew to Manila with one of the managers and is true. Actually, they don’t know what they are doing. No plan. But yes, with this situation of shortage what makes sense is hire and raise salaries. But........you know how this works. I hope I am wrong

[Flyboy_SG]

I wish I am wrong. I flew to Manila with one of the managers and is true. Actually, they don’t know what they are doing. No plan. But yes, with this situation of shortage what makes sense is hire and raise salaries. But........you know how this works. I hope I am wrong


let’s wait till October. Interesting times though.


Any updates on the pay review? Anyone ?

[captain.weird]

Hi guys, had anything changed at SV? No more hirings of foreigners?

Would love to hear.

[polax52]

Hi guys, had anything changed at SV? No more hirings of foreigners?

Would love to hear.

All recruitment of foreign Pilots has stopped. It will not start again in the near term.

[metro301]

All recruitment of foreign Pilots has stopped. It will not start again in the near term.

I am not 100% sure that this is currently accurate. I heard talk of a recent recruitment drive in CAI for SVA. This is an unconfirmed rumour.

[polax52]

I am not 100% sure that this is currently accurate. I heard talk of a recent recruitment drive in CAI for SVA. This is an unconfirmed rumour.

It never happened. Unconfirmed rumour about a recruitment drive...LOL

[LNAV VNAV -]

I heard that the recruiters went to Cairo but no candidates turned up.

[Klimax]

WHY would anyone in their right sane mind even consider going to an airline operation based in Saudi Arabia (KSA), when there are so many airlines around the world recruiting onto Airbus and Boeings. You have to be nuts to go there for a job in the Saudi desert, unless of course you´re currently flying for an Indonesian or Philippino one and you get a pay (only) increase. Wow. Just wondering? Why? Because Saudi is such an awesome and interesting country to live in? Just curious what drives people to consider this option. Cheers.

[mutt]

Because Saudi is such an awesome and interesting country to live in?

Actually if you get outside, it is an awesome and interesting country to live in.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-6776769/Swooping-Saudi-Stunning-drone-photos-reveal-remote-Arabic-villages-ancient-structures.html

[Python27]

Because Saudi is such an awesome and interesting country to live in?

Actually if you get outside, it is an awesome and interesting country to live in.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-6776769/Swooping-Saudi-Stunning-drone-photos-reveal-remote-Arabic-villages-ancient-structures.html

All you need to enjoy it is a drone! Pronto...

[metro301]

I heard that the recruiters went to Cairo but no candidates turned up.



That is the one I heard...

It never happened. Unconfirmed rumour about a recruitment drive...LOL

uncomfirmed LOL

[Flyboy_SG]

I am not 100% sure that this is currently accurate. I heard talk of a recent recruitment drive in CAI for SVA. This is an unconfirmed rumour.


No way... They just didn’t renew the contracts of 9 Expat first officers due to saudiization. So it’s happening.

[metro301]

Have you seen the number of Saudi Nationals that are newly released or currently in trg?

30+ KSA national RUH based FO's are on their way to 330 transition.

The writing was on the wall for the past year concerning the expat FO's....

[polax52]

Have you seen the number of Saudi Nationals that are newly released or currently in trg?

30+ KSA national RUH based FO's are on their way to 330 transition.

The writing was on the wall for the past year concerning the expat FO's....

Contract renewals will be made based on operational requirements. That suggests that the timing of your contract expiry may decide whether they require you or release you.

They are upgrading a large number of local F/O's and replacing those F/O's at a slower rate with cadets. That indicates that they still require the expat F/O's. Currently however, management believes utilisation to be poor relative to industry standard, that means that there is some slack in the system allowing for a number of expat F/O's to be released. With substantial growth however, that is unlikely to continue.

In my opinion they're a little like the Chinese, they don't want foreign Pilots but they need foreign Pilots. You have factions within management and government (exactly like China). There are those who understand the need for foreign Pilots and the those who want to remove foreign Pilots at any cost.

[polax52]

Just to add that they are upgrading F/O's to Captains in the path of cadets who are receiving minimal training by industry standards.
This may not continue.

[mutt]

So when do you expect this rule to start applying to Captains?

[polax52]

So when do you expect this rule to start applying to Captains?

To eliminate foreign Captains over the next 2 years, you would need to do 1 of 2 things. Either close the Riyadh base or force Saudi Captains out of the Jeddah base to Riyadh. Neither of those options look likely in the near future.

[Twiglet1]

Couple of Saudi Cabin Crew caught up in the Sri Lanka attack

KSA: Two Saudis confirmed dead in Sri Lankan blasts (http://www.gdnonline.com/Details/535887/Two-Saudis-confirmed-dead-in-Sri-Lankan-blasts)

[argentina21]

There's no "fast track command" at QR. You join the queue of many others who joined earlier and have the company mins already, Yes they need a lot of crew, so does EY as you say and EK (& Ethiopian, Jet, Ryanair NAS etc etc).
EK have had many aircraft rotated through being parked-up, for over a year now, due short flight crew and flighties! 500 crew short on 777 fleet alone without accounting for needing new recruits. They're even employing turbo prop guys now, they have dropped their minimums so low in desperation. EY quickly following behind with shortages. Now SV are getting 3 new aircraft / month from Dec'16 (yeh I know all about the dribble about retiring 772's etc but it's not a 1 for 1 swap, they need many of them still flying longer, if they are to reach their 2020 goals!)
Now do the crewing figures. We may be surplus on one or two fleets right now but SV are going to be short crewed next year and from then on... UNLESS they get better utilisation of local crew and changed work ethics (& we know what the chances of that are). That also entails a more efficient less corrupt crewing / rostering department (fat chance of that!) such as the Jepp bidding system promised over a year ago now. Also, many of the 400 ex MAS crew either aren't turning up or are resigning to return home to B737/A330/A340 gigs with MAS/Batik/Malindo etc and that will compound the problem further.
With the flood of Memos out before the new CEO arrives in Jan'16 there's a lot of change to "tidy up the place". Let's see what the New Year brings.

"Just keep Swimming, Just keep Swimming ..." :-)


This forward looking post was made almost three years ago. How have the things mentioned here panned out at Saudia?

[lekijiji]

Hello gents, could anyone share an avarage 777 Capt salary at Saudia?
Still no commuting contract over there?