Saudia

[Top gun pilot 797]

In my career spanning almost four decades I have never ever seen an airline with worse maintenance ethics and pilot training programmes.
Airplanes are MEL'd so that VP maintenance can boast about the 'immense workload' the poorly mentained airplanes are creating for the maintenance department !
Similarly pilots training that should take ideally 3-4 months is taking 8-9 months. And then the VP training says, hey look how many pilots we have in the waiting list. So see how much work we do.
Same with housing, finance, transportation, operations, ticketing and planning.

It's like a builder having being tasked with making some buildings. And then he makes them all just 80% complete. Just so that he can impress upon the powers that be, that so many structures are incomplete so therefore I am working very very hard. Instead of completing the buildings and letting your results show your achievements.

This place is super sick. And only getting worse.
At least 35-40 pilots having finished their complete training and awaiting either their final release check or their gaca check or their final oral. Why? Apparently for lack of IP or GACA inspector or simply poor planning !
This, whilst airplanes sit on ground due lack of pilots.
Simply amazing...!!!!:eek:
Somebody ought to write in to the DG / CEO about these diliberate 'oversights'.
And while an expat pilot takes 9 months for training, his local counterpart completes it in 4 ....!!!

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

[Romasik]

In my career spanning almost four decades I have never ever seen an airline with worse maintenance ethics and pilot training programmes.
Airplanes are MEL'd so that VP maintenance can boast about the 'immense workload' the poorly mentained airplanes are creating for the maintenance department !
Similarly pilots training that should take ideally 3-4 months is taking 8-9 months. And then the VP training says, hey look how many pilots we have in the waiting list. So see how much work we do.
Same with housing, finance, transportation, operations, ticketing and planning.

It's like a builder having being tasked with making some buildings. And then he makes them all just 80% complete. Just so that he can impress upon the powers that be, that so many structures are incomplete so therefore I am working very very hard. Instead of completing the buildings and letting your results show your achievements.

This place is super sick. And only getting worse.
At least 35-40 pilots having finished their complete training and awaiting either their final release check or their gaca check or their final oral. Why? Apparently for lack of IP or GACA inspector or simply poor planning !
This, whilst airplanes sit on ground due lack of pilots.
Simply amazing...!!!!:eek:
Somebody ought to write in to the DG / CEO about these diliberate 'oversights'.
And while an expat pilot takes 9 months for training, his local counterpart completes it in 4 ....!!!

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:
It's a part of the job description. All of what you mentioned. I'm sure you have a choice to fly where your home is. Most probably for peanuts. Yet you are here.
Airplanes are not sitting on ground due to lack of pilots. In fact there is almost no overtime on all fleets.
Take it easy. From paycheck to paycheck. And follow the MEL procedures :cool:

[madz330]

This is kind of funny, I wonder how many recent hires will return home.

Very unlikely especially to those already online.The terms and conditions are nowhere near what is offered in SV.

[Top gun pilot 797]

It's a part of the job description. All of what you mentioned

So you're essentially saying that this caliber of maintenance, administration, training, operations etc etc was discussed and acknowledged during the initial assessment.
Surely you jest.
🤔

[jetsreams]

Hi , Im a captain on the B777 fleet and visit JED once in a while. It would be great if we could meet whenever you are in JED to know more about Saudia. Also can you recommend some nice restaurants ? :)

[Romasik]

So you're essentially saying that this caliber of maintenance, administration, training, operations etc etc was discussed and acknowledged during the initial assessment.
Surely you jest.
🤔
It would be rather naive to expect this kind of information from initial assessment. There are more reliable sources out there. The best one was to simply search what KSA is. It's widely available in the Internet.
Another good example is Emirates. If you only go through recruitment process you will love it. Then real life comes. Despite countless warnings on this forum. It's still not that bad (IMHO), bur surely different from advertising.
And, BTW, not providing the true picture at initial assessment is also a part of the job description:)

P.S.: 17 years ago I also thought this place was very much like UAE ...

[Jetlag787]

Hi. I'm an F/O on the 787 and would like to know how much I will be taking home every month as an F/O on the wide body. What kind of accommodation can I expect (I'm married with 2 kids) and is it true that an upgrade will take me 10 years? How many hours can I expect to fly a month, and how many off days will I get in JED? Please reply or hit my inbox. Thanks.

[metro301]

Romasik, Bingo.... It baffles me when people fail to actually do any research, then spend a large portion of their time complaining when the reality sets in. Over the years, there has been no shortage of people on this site explaining what to actually expect on arrival. KSA is not an easy place to live or work, but if you can adapt and except the reality it makes for a lucrative placement. With proper planning and some luck many people are on track to retire 10+ years earlier than in their home countries.

[guiones]

New Saudia CEO

Jaan Albrecht appointed CEO of Saudi Arabian Airlines Group | People content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/people/jaan-albrecht-appointed-ceo-saudi-arabian-airlines-group)

[Top gun pilot 797]

About time ... :rolleyes:

[Romasik]

About time ... :rolleyes:

Let's see how long he will last. He is most probably heading to a wall...:ugh:

[polax52]

Romasik: Yes, that was what I was thinking. He didn't last long at Sun Express. He is capable of turning around an Airline that wants to be turned around but that's unlikely at Saudia. I would say that by far the most major issue at Saudia is maintenance. The maintenance department will not be changed, those guys are mostly "jobs for life" and they don't want to work. The only way to change it is to set up a separate maintenance company run by Expats and have them do all of the actual maintenance. The "jobs for life" boys can take charge of issuing the MEL's.

[VAMY]

Have a look at the link below for the latest CNN news concerning the pilot shortage in China!

It's titled "Want to Earn $300,000 Tax Free". It makes interesting reading!

Want to earn $300,000 tax free? Try flying a plane in China - Nov. 15, 2016 (http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/15/news/economy/china-airlines-foreign-pilots-pay/index.html)

Perhaps all us Saudia expats should get together and form a "pilot contracting company", approach the Chinese carriers with an offer of our services and see which of them comes up with the best offer??

What do you think guys?

[Flyboy_SG]

9 months to train expats ?! I heard someone is in 777 ground school/sim for almost a year.

It's amusing to read the questions of wannabes. Saudia was good a year back.

First officers please stay wherever your guys, they don't want us here any more. Things have changed drastically and conditions have eroded badly in the past one year. No command at all, lesser money, super long training and much more. Saudia is good only for Arab speaking expats at the most. Especially those who maintain seniority in their previous airline.

[mutt]

No command at all Didn't we tell you a year ago that there wasn't going to be a quick command for new FO's?

The most senior expat FO's are hitting 11 years and still waiting with promises!

Are they still hiring expat FO's for any equipment?

[SVA320]

Hello folks,
As far as I'm concerned, I joined the Airline one year ago. Yes I agree, training is long and painful, yes I agree the rate of failures is high and the process is painful to be released to line. But what I've been told was true eventually, I mean if you survive the training. Flying in the Kingdom is Something smooth and rewarding. Most of time my professionnal life is really enjoyable. Unfortunately, beside my job my family life is poor because I'm still housed in a hotel in Jeddah. Therefore unable to have family joining me for now. I was aware of the fact I was signing a non commuting contract,..., so complain about that.
The only issue I could complain about is future and money. As you know JED is not the funniest place on earth to leave in, especially for a non muslim pilot, used to fly in Europe previously. And I must admit I was teased, more than one year ago, by the recruitment team during the interview abolut Saudi Airlines benefit package. The salary, based on overtime, was depicted as the best in the Middle East, and sure it used to be. But today, everybody is overstressed and scared about the near future to come. For the first time in the airline history, a major economical crisis is about to come, threatening the airline structure. Apparently, the management is targetting to stop overtime for everybody. As a consequence we should be paid basic salary from now on... As a consequence unfortunately, many of us can no longer stay if Financial conditions do not meet anymore our initial expectations, as promised intially...
Finally here this is my only concern for now.
Regards an safe flights

[polax52]

I have to be honest, I do not understand why any First Officer, particularly a young First Officer i.e. Under 40 would want to stay at Saudia. Qatar Airways has an order book of 208 new aircraft arriving over the next couple of years. "208" New aircraft, after nearly 70 years of operation Saudia had a total of 120 aircraft.

I understand that Qatar are offering fast command now for suitably qualified First Officers. In any case you would join a fair seniority list in a company that will double in size in the fairly immediate future.

Even Etihad have orders for 116 Aicraft which doubles their fleet over the next few years.

[Flyboy_SG]

Dear Mutt, I joined for T&C and pay. Not for command. I knew it and never expected it.

[Chocks Away]

There's no "fast track command" at QR. You join the queue of many others who joined earlier and have the company mins already, Yes they need a lot of crew, so does EY as you say and EK (& Ethiopian, Jet, Ryanair NAS etc etc).
EK have had many aircraft rotated through being parked-up, for over a year now, due short flight crew and flighties! 500 crew short on 777 fleet alone without accounting for needing new recruits. They're even employing turbo prop guys now, they have dropped their minimums so low in desperation. EY quickly following behind with shortages. Now SV are getting 3 new aircraft / month from Dec'16 (yeh I know all about the dribble about retiring 772's etc but it's not a 1 for 1 swap, they need many of them still flying longer, if they are to reach their 2020 goals!)
Now do the crewing figures. We may be surplus on one or two fleets right now but SV are going to be short crewed next year and from then on... UNLESS they get better utilisation of local crew and changed work ethics (& we know what the chances of that are). That also entails a more efficient less corrupt crewing / rostering department (fat chance of that!) such as the Jepp bidding system promised over a year ago now. Also, many of the 400 ex MAS crew either aren't turning up or are resigning to return home to B737/A330/A340 gigs with MAS/Batik/Malindo etc and that will compound the problem further.
With the flood of Memos out before the new CEO arrives in Jan'16 there's a lot of change to "tidy up the place". Let's see what the New Year brings.

"Just keep Swimming, Just keep Swimming ..." :-)

[Flyboy_SG]

Quite an interesting insight chocks, let's wait for Jan 17. Not to mention the parallel movements from 777 to 787/330.

SVA320 why don't you move into motel and get your family. It's not at all bad and much better than many hotels.

[mamamia]

Just heard that 3 captains has been denied there bonus as the company had stopped a lot of benefits it's not ideal to have a basic salary where you can go and hunt other jobs around

[metro301]

Mamamia,

Active pilots on the whatsapp groups are reporting that their end of contract bonuses have been paid as expected. The whole process does take a few months to be approved and paid. It is not immediately paid on the due date. This has always been the case.

If any pilots have actually received a message saying the bonus has been denied, they have not come forward and said so themselves. I have only heard comments of delays.

[guiones]

Paid as agreed.

[mutt]

LAHORE (Dunya News) – A Saudi Arabian Airlines flight from Lucknow, India to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia made an emergency landing at Lahore’s Allama Iqbal Airport after the pilot of the plane fainted during flight, Dunya News reported.

The second officer on the plane made the emergency landing. The aircraft landed safely at the Lahore airport. All passengers were shifted to passenger lounge while the pilot was shifted to hospital for treatment.

Believe that it was a little bit more than "fainting". Hope he gets well soon.

[Romasik]

And it was more Karachi than Lahore...

[HERC]

It was Karachi indeed.

As reported by avherald
A Saudi Arabian Airlines Airbus A330-300, registration HZ-AQI performing flight SV-891 from Lucknow (India) to Jeddah (Saudi Arabia), was enroute at FL380 about 270nm northeast of Karachi (Pakistan) when the first officer declared Mayday reporting the captain was incapacitated, the captain had fainted. The first officer requested all emergency equipment ready at the runway and also requested stairs available at the runway advising that he had no possibility to taxi the aircraft off the runway. The aircraft landed safely on Karachi's runway 25L about 45 minutes later.

Ground observers reported that an ambulance and medical assistance arrived only 20 minutes after landing.

[Romasik]

Ground observers reported that an ambulance and medical assistance arrived only 20 minutes after landing.
Mainly because the aircraft stopped on the RW. FOs are not yet allowed to taxi. The training is in progress, but still...
Captain is in the hospital and recovering fast. Actually, good job from all involved.

[Top gun pilot 797]

First Officer not allowed to taxy ......???????!!!!!!!!
:ugh: :\ :confused: :eek: :{ :ugh:

Dark ages again...?!?!!
( there's a tiller there for some reason I'm sure ).
Surely they're allowed to land and take off the airplane huh

[mamamia]

Metro301

It's been denied for 3 pilots :ugh:

[Romasik]

Metro301

It's been denied for 3 pilots :ugh:
I guess it's not true. It could be delayed but not denied. I don't think you are able to provide further details. At least denied by whom and reason given.

[polax52]

What's going on? 50 Pilots resigned since October including 5 yesterday.

It does seem that in addition to the significant training failures; the effects of the changes in terms, conditions and the canceled/delayed bonus's are coming home to roost.

It also doesn't help that Qatar are giving a confirmed upgrade course date to new F/O's. If it's not fast track command then it's not much short.

[mamamia]

Regarding the 3 guys it's true and here is not the right place to mention details so if you don't believe me it's your choice but the company b4 yesterday 5 people resigned and not even the terms and conditions has changed they have stopped the b787 delivery you will hear that soon just hope it does not happen to you cheeeeeeeeers romasik

[North_Bedouin]

Is Nesma still recruiting pilots and which routes are they operating?
Nesma has opened a base in JED with daily 6xRUH, 2xDMM and 1xHAS. All on leased 320/321

[Flyboy_SG]

@ Topgun- Luckily we are allowed to Takeoff and land up to 80kts usually.only Return sectors with most. Tiller is there on the right probably for command training , lol. We still live in the Stone Age here...paper charts, individual paper jeppesen folders which you have to update every week(I bet some one is minting on this), Expensive onboard unused EFB on 777 300 without subscription etc.

[FlightDetent]

fSG: do not underestimate the bravery of EFB providers to ask a price that sucks all of your savings into a vendor-lock, impossible to get out of, 5 year "industry standard" contract.

Also, paper charts with individual folders is a distributed system where an error of ommision / undertraining or even negligence would only invalidate a single-point enduser. Whereas an EFB data distribution is a highly centralised animal which requires rigorous standards of work and very high level of quality assurance.

The EFB integrated class 3 turned out to be a dead end, unfortunately.

[Top gun pilot 797]

So what's your point FD....??!

[FlightDetent]

None in the context of the thread, or even Saudia. Apologies. Just a brain fart after seeing the Stone Age note. Though plenty of modern, state of the art EFB, operators who do not taxi WB's from RHS too, as I come to think about it.

[fireball_23]

Well on the other hand, things seem to improve. 20/10 ( RUH base ) for the 320 / 777 skippers.
Also, Sv has received an approval from Gaca for the use of the IPAD. It is a HUGE step..no more papers and heavy bags.

[polax52]

Fireball: That 10 that you're talking about is still not confirmed and if it does become available, it will be limited. That's what I've just been told.

[fireball_23]

Polax : Really ? :ugh:
In the email, they say it will be effective by March.. I know a bunch of guys who already jumped on the opportunity to apply for Ruh base.. let's hope for the best..
If I may ask, who told you that ? ( you can send me a PM if it is more convenient )

[VAMY]

For those that are interested the 20/10 recently being offered. It's not the only roster/days off pattern being consider by SV Flight Operations management. There are a number of other options being considered as well, including 20/14 but if you all jump in with both feet for the 20/10 you'll not see the 20/14 even proposed. Like any offering situation, it's not always wise to take take the first proposal on offer.

Incidentally, the 20/10 option is supposed to be offered with the choice of two month pairings, so the the 10 days off at the end of one 20 day period butts up with 10 days off at the beginning of the next period. This gives a block of 20 days off in one go. It is supposed to go something like this:

Month One. 20 days on followed by 10 days off.

Month two. 10 days off followed by 20 days on.

So, over a two month period the work/days off pattern should look like this:

20 days on/20 days off/20 days on.

Got it?

[VAMY]

As for the "end of contract" bonus NOT being paid. That is certainly true in quite a number of cases. In fact there are number of cases soon to go to the Saudi Labour Court because of non payment.

It seems that good fortune may have been on the side of those who've already received their payments and in all likelyhood they're from the group who were first due to receive it because of when they are started their contracts in 2012/2013. There's no guarantee that the bonuses will be paid to those who joined 2014 and afterwards when their 3 year contracts come up for renewal.

Remember, for those that have the wisdom to see it, the government is running out of money and thus having a lot difficulty with its financing. There are are lot of government funded projects that have been stopped, because of lack of payment. KAIA is just one of them. There are also a lot of Saudi companies that rely upon government contracts that have not been paid. Their expat employees have returned home-many of them unpaid.

Work it out for yourselves. If you joined in 2012/2013 you're at the front of the que and may get your bonus. Not necessarily so if your contract started later. In those cases, I wouldn't say the bonus payment is guaranteed at all.

[Romasik]

KAIA is not stopped. Just look at it when you are on short final 34C. It's also confirmed from inside Bin Laden group.

[VAMY]

The last time I looked, which was admittedly about 10 days ago and I didn't look at the area when on finals either, KAIA certainly looked to me like there was hardly any work or very little progress being made with the airport. As compared, to say just over a year or a year or eighteen months ago, when there were vehicles & construction workers every where.

As for Bin Laden doing the work. Well it must be their "relief crew" because most of their workers were repatriated over the last year by their individual governments due to Bin Laden not paying them and because they had no money to live on. This was well reported in many international news papers.

Furthermore, most of the Spanish expatriates involved in the building of the railway connection to Mecca also left many months ago. There are many more examples as evidence of the country's financial problems if you wish to open your eyes.

As I said earlier, I've not been to the airport in the last ten days or, so maybe it's possible the country's financial problems have all been solved in that short period of time and work has started again at full tilt on the airport but I doubt it.

[Romasik]

I can only repeat what I have already said. If you only like to see the negative side, then it's another thing.
BTW, the terminal is ready inside. What is remaining - the roads. They will get it done for sure.
And still I have no illusions regarding financial situation in general.

[LNAV VNAV -]

I can only repeat what I have already said. If you only like to see the negative side, then it's another thing.
BTW, the terminal is ready inside. What is remaining - the roads. They will get it done for sure.
And still I have no illusions regarding financial situation in general.

I was on final 34R yesterday morning and I saw vehicles and people with high visibility vests around the jetties that looked like they were working there.

[VAMY]

I was on final 34R yesterday morning and I saw vehicles and people with high visibility vests around the jetties that looked like they were working there.

"A few orange vests and vehicles do not an economic recovery make"...and I'm not being negative, merely realistic. The terminal may well look complete internally but I can assure you that looks can be deceiving-there is still much work to be done just on the Terminal interior alone. Then there are ALL the other construction areas, that were planned as part of the airport project, but have now been stopped or construction work has ceased.

The planned huge hanger construction area to the North of the Royal Hangar remains untouched for more than a year. The same is true for the railway connection to the terminal area, which is an integral part of the airport project, as well as all the necessary road improvements and routes. There's no obvious progress or restart of these construction areas.

Furthermore, the Saudi government have had to go to the IMF for an "economy bailout loan", the first time in about thirty years. Delude yourself if you wish. However, the wider considered evidence suggest a real financial problem with the country.

[metro301]

Vamy - Please clarify or add a link to anything on this IMF "economy bailout loan"?

The Saudis floated an international bond offering a short while back, sovereign bonds are very different than going to the IMF.

[VAMY]

Vamy - Please clarify or add a link to anything on this IMF "economy bailout loan"?

The Saudis floated an international bond offering a short while back, sovereign bonds are very different than going to the IMF.

Hi Metro,

You may be correct. I've sent you the links and the IMF report via a PM.

[polax52]

Saudia has now fully stopped recruitment of expat Pilots. I don't know if this is because of the failure to get enough through training. Current success rates probably around 1 in 3 or 1 in 4; or maybe it's because the training center is full. Whatever, I think for the future they're going to have to reassess the selection process.

[mutt]

Interesting "email" doing the rounds, it states that all new hires will be Riyadh based, AND all contract renewals will also force people to Riyadh.

It might work if the offer the 20/10 option, but that doesn't appear to be written officially yet :)

[Romasik]

Interesting "email" doing the rounds, it states that all new hires will be Riyadh based, AND all contract renewals will also force people to Riyadh.

It might work if the offer the 20/10 option, but that doesn't appear to be written officially yet :)
If this e-mail is genuine, I'll start looking for a new job now, although I still have two years until the next contract. Moving to RUH may only make sense for those who don't have their families in Jeddah. House, school, friends, diving, house maid, pets, etc - the whole life will go upside down. No way.
Deteriorating renumeration on top of it.
I would rather start it anew in some place with beer and other civilization benefits.

[VAMY]

Romasik & Mutt,

Riyadh, as the administrative center and capitol city of the Kingdom, accounts for nearly 40% and growing of Saudia's flight operations. It's an integral and important part of Saudia's operation. Riyadh will become more and more important as time passes. The RUH base is imperative and has to be crewed.

Saudia Flight Operations Management have been presented with a number of recommendations and options to crew a dedicated RUH base. The advised recommendation, in the first instance, was to try and crew the RUH base with as many expat crew as were willing to go and to make this more attractive to expats the recommendation was for an 17/18 days on with 14 days off(17/18 on 14 off) "commuting" rotational roster. This recommendation was given because it was known that RUH base would not be attractive to the majority of Saudi Flight Deck Crew because they're "family base" is Jeddah. However, most expats would consider RUH base if it was a "commutable" base and with sufficient block days off to make it worthwhile.

Obviously, this roster pattern would be very appealing to the greater majority of expats because it wouldn't mean having to live in Riyadh or moving the family to Riyadh. The family would return to the home country and the Flight Deck Crew member would just "commute" in to the Kingdom to work his schedule and either return home to his family for his regular 14 days off or he could choose to sacrifice his days off for extra work/ overtime if he so wished.

The current 20/10 roster pattern, with a permanent "home base" in Riyadh rather than a commuting base, was one of at least four options but it wasn't in the first three recommendations.

The management know the option of 17/18 on 14 off "commuting RUH base" was the recommended option to crew the RUH base and they were provided with the documentation supporting the recommendation.

If the current 20/10 option, with RUH "home base" is unacceptable but the 17-18 on 14 off " commuting base" preferred, then let the management know this. It would be a much better option than either having to move the family and family home to Riyadh or choseing to leave Saudia instead.

[Romasik]

Well, I don't know (nobody knows at the moment, even the management) what and when we will end up with. The only thing I know for sure is that if they force me to move to RUH after 19 years in JED, I would rather leave the company:(.
I'm not interesting in commuting. Just my 5 cents to complement the picture.
Good luck for those who are looking for commuting options.

[Flyboy_SG]

Training itself is a big joke. Those who fail are not real failures. People are often put down because they failed to satisfy the trainers ego. someone was told to do a walk around with his flight bag for forgetting the 360 scan. Who apparently resigned on the flight. There is no professionalism of any kind, especially in line training.

Btw did you guys get the salary yet ?

[mutt]

Btw did you guys get the salary yet ? Couple of days ago....

[Romasik]

Romasik, I appreciate and understand your position.

Personally speaking, I would also prefer to remain in JED, if given the option, but if not, then something like an 18/14 "commuting" option would be much more preferable than having to move the whole family to RUH. I'd much rather just move them home if RUH "home" base was the only option on offer.
I don't believe they will ever come up with anything more then 10 days.
Even 10 days look unrealistic...

[pfvspnf]

Walk around with the flight bag?360 scan ? Sorry I don't get it

[Easy Peasy]

So much for a choice... all expat crew will only be offered a RUH base and all expat renewal conctacts will be RUH based. You have no 'choice' in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Enjoy the six days off a month in your new home.

Saudia City is going to start looking pretty 'local' very soon.

[Chocks Away]

VAMY - Your third paragraph is bang on / correct!
Contract renewal letters are now not being seen as acceptable if you specify a Base & Type. It must be "open-ended" and at the behest of Saudia where, when and what type you are moved to.
Maybe in your home country that may be acceptable but as an expat well away from home in some other Foreign country, not acceptable (for many reasons).
I can see a lot of people using The Exit door coming up, if SV are not careful.

[VAMY]

The 20/10 RUH base is now being officially offered.

It seems the price of the "10 day off block" is that 3 of your your current vacation/holiday entitlement are given up each month.

If my assumptions and mathematics serve me correctly, then the 20/10 offer translates into a productivity benefit in Saudia's favor at nil cost to them because I believe the "total yearly" days off enjoys at present will be reduced. If that is the case, then the expat pilot will effectively be self "funding" his 10 day off block from days off he would have already been entitled to on the present JED base contract.

Please do the maths for yourselves and confirm if my assumptions are correct or not?

[guiones]

Saudia is actually increasing the "leave" from 40 days total(30 vac, 10 hol) to 60, from the guaranteed block of 5 to 10, 5 days difference X12=60. So for the expats looking to commute is a good deal.

G

[Chocks Away]

I think you miss VANY's point.
We are self funding those extra days you mention (from 5/7 to 10) by taking our own Annual Leave days and spreading them throughout the year.
It's a "revenue neutral" move for the company in that regard, they just have to organise the scheduling & better plan the RUH trips... good luck with that!

[VAMY]

Guy's,

The 20/10 RUH is definitely not revenue neutral. As the current offer stands, the expats will be definitely giving more productivity to the company than is necessary.

Presently, days off per month per line are as follows.

Each line usually provides a minimum of nine days off per month. In reality, depending which fleet you are on and what line you have, you will usually get about an average of 12-14 days off per line per month. Presently, these days off do NOT include the "before flight" rest in RUH associated with most RUH pairings.

Therefore, on an annual basis, the average days off each month presently amount to approximately 10 months X 12 days, which equals 120 days. Annual vacation entitlement is 30 days, which gives an annual sub total of 150 days off. Then there are the 10 days holiday entitlement, which gives a further sub total of 160 days off per year. Finally, in the month in which you take you 10 days holiday you will also receive at least an average of 8 days off on your line. This gives a realistic minimum annual total of 168 days off.

If you devide the 168 by 12 you will get the average monthly days off that are potential and easily available. That figure amounts to 14 days of per month, each and every month, assuming you are prepared to give up your holiday and vacation entitlement. It does NOT in ANYWAY equate to 10 days off per month! If you accept 20/10 then you are, plainly speaking, being very f**king stupid and you get what you deserve! You will be giving up, as an absolute minimum, an extra 4 days off average per month that is currently enjoyed for ABSOLUTELY no benefit, financial or otherwise!

Furthermore, most lines presently include pairings from RUH that require dead heading credit to/from Riyadh AND a day's rest in RUH BEFORE the flight/flights from RUH begin. If you have three RUH pairings per month, that'll mean at least 3/4 days "before flight" rest RUH associated with the RUH pairings on your line each month. Some lines will have more than three RUH pairings.

In terms of productivity, those "before flight" rest days in RUH are effectively productivity days lost to the company because if you were not on " before flight" rest then the company could allocate you to a flight on those days instead.

If you become RUH based, on the 20/10, then those "before flight" rest days will be lost to you and will become available to the company to cover other trips. This is the opposite situation to what currently exists.

Assuming presently there are approximately 3 to 4 days "before or post flight" rest in RUH for most RUH pairings, then that will mean, in simplified terms, with the proposed RUH base, each RUH based pilot will be available to be utilized to crew an average of one, possibly two, extra pairings per month as compared to now. In other words, the company will be able to crew more flights from RUH with less crew than compared to the present. That's a big productivity benefit in the company's favor.

If you become "RUH Based" you will also be giving up the current dead head credit, which is a substantial payment over a year, as well as the "domestic layover expenses" associated with the "rest" periods in RUH. The "domestic layover expenses" also amount to a substantial annual payment which will also be lost to any RUH based pilot.

If you accept the "21/10" RUH base, you will give up approximately a minimum of 6-8 hours dead head credit each month, the associated "domestic layover expenses" and you will, in reality, replace all of this monetary loss by flying at least one extra trip per month for very little, if any, monetary benift. These productivity gains alone will pay for the RUH base many times over.

Not happy with gaining the above, the company really want to establish just how daft the expats are by also asking them to forfeit their present 30 days anunual vacation entitlement and possible the 10 days holiday entitlement as well!

Simply put, the productivity benefit to the company comes from the following facts.

On the 20/10 deal currently on offer you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy. An average of 6-8 hours "dead head" credit per month and an average of 4-5 nights "domestic layover" expanses each and every month.

You will replace that with an average of one or two pairings each month for little if no monetary benefit.

Honestly guys, which idiot is going to accept those terms when he will ALREADY have more than funded the RUH base from the productivity gains of losing the deadhead credit payment, domestic layover expenses and "before flight" rest day in RUH. Also, do not forget that on those "before flight" rest days you will now be operating an extra flight!

Come on guys, use your brains. Try to see what is really being offered!

The Saudi nationals have already figured it out and that's why they won't accept RUH base! I suspect the management figure that most of the expats will be plenty stupid enough to accept the offer that the Saudi's wouldn't!

By way of comparison, in order to attract its JED based staff to RUH, GACA are offering a 25% pay increase to attract its key staff to RUH! Even with such a good pay rise on offer, GACA are finding it extremely hard to attract staff that are willing to go or sufficient appplicants to replace them!

[Easy Peasy]

The memo is signed. There is no 'holding out for a better offer.' New and renewal expat contracts will be RUH based.

[metro301]

Correct... I have seen the memo with my own eyes. One close friend verified its authenticity with the author.

[mutt]

How many people are they seeking for RUH base? How many new hires are presently sitting in JED Hotels?

you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy You cant fly 20 days in a row, so you will still get some of these days off, but how are people going to earn anything but basic salary with the present rostering procedures?

[VAMY]

Mutt & Peasy,

At the moment there's an official company moratorium on overtime with the stated aim of reducing the overtime bill. I don't know if the overtime for the expats has been cut back in reality but on some fleets there's very little overtime available i.e. the A330, B747-8F & B787. I can't say if overtime has been reduced on the A320 or B777, although antecdotally it seems that overtime on those two fleets has also been reduced lately.

From what I've seen for the RUH roster patterns that have been suggested, the 18/14 option recommendation was that out of the 14 days off the pilot could elect for voluntary overtime on some of his days off, if he so wished.

I have also seen the memo Peasy mentions but I have also seen the document recommending differing roster patterns which strongly came out in favor of a 18/14 commuting roster on a cost favour basis to Saudia's benefit. The 20/10 roster was also discussed as an option but with that roster pattern the present holiday and vacation entitlement remained INTACT and WITHOUT the expat pilot having to give up ANY of the present holiday and vacation entitlement.

It's not accurate to say that no other roster pattern/option exists. They do exist, you're just not being given the opportunity to see them. VP Flight Operations knows this for sure because the document has been with him for about two months already. I'd suggest you go in and ask him if you can see it before you accept the first offer put in front of you. I'm sure that if you were trying to sell your house, whether in the States or the U.K, you wouldn't even consider taking the first offer available. Please, just apply the same logic as you would for selling your house when deciding on the RUH basing.

Don't accept the first offer put in front of you!

[Romasik]

Don't accept the first offer put in front of you!
What offer? There is no offer. All new hires and all contract renewals will be RUH base until further notice. Period. There are two options - to sign the contract or not to sign.

Overtime moratorium is nonsence. It's always cheaper to pay overtime rather then have more pilots with their training, basic salary, accomodation, etc. The thing is that it's simply not enough flights at the moment to go around. I don't know the reason. Overcapacity, seasonal, general downturn? Flights are seldom full and frequently being cancelled.
When they need someone to fly aeroplanes nobody talks about moratoriums, mostly about selling vacations;)They just don't need us these days.

[metro301]

Romanisk just a side note, empty seats are not the only evidence of a slowdown. I came back from vacation after 5 weeks. I was driving on Medina and Khaladia roads at 2130 on a Friday night, there were NO traffic jams! I don't recall seeing this ever on a weekend in the last decade.

[Romasik]

Romanisk just a side note, empty seats are not the only evidence of a slowdown. I came back from vacation after 5 weeks. I was driving on Medina and Khaladia roads at 2130 on a Friday night, there were NO traffic jams! I don't recall seeing this ever on a weekend in the last decade.
Another side note. Couple of months ago I saw ALL Concourse A, B and C gates at least on the field side occupied by Emirates aircraft. And a lot of them on remote stands. I have never seen picture like this in DXB.
Something is going on in the industry. Well, at least in its Middle East part.
I just had 3 flights cancelled: RUH-JED-DMM-JED...
RUH - JED was combined with 777, which flew half empty anyway...

[metro301]

Vamy, as you mentioned, waves benefit connecting passenger flows.

Is their goal to become a major transit airline like Emirates? If so, this will be interesting to watch.....

[Romasik]

VAMY:
I don't remember exactly. At night. It was dark. But my point is that over more then 20 years flying to DXB at different times of the day, sometimes at peak arrivals, I saw it for the first time. May be I just wasn't lucky enough:).

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Saudi Arabian Airlines appoints new chairman | Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/node/1036411/saudi-arabia)

[Romasik]

VAMY:

Some good points:)
Few notes:
- Saudi pilots who physically live in Riyadh will take RUH base for sure. Even with some financial lost, which is not really going to happen. Instead of deadheabing credit they will get flying credit and productivity.
Also don't forget their present hassle of positioning to Jeddah and returning back to Riyadh for free and during their rest time. And renting appartments and having another car in Jeddah as well. And doing all office things. In any case their number is too small to have any significant impact. So, I beleive, we are only talking about expats and their incentives.
If Saudia respects at least 20/10 promises and put it in the contract, it will make things much easier. Still, I don't think they will get enough volunteers. Then forceful base assignment comes forward and it all depends on backlash. The only upper hand expats have is not signing or gambling by not signing RUH base contract. If enough people decide to leave instead of moving, then we'll see the next step - improving incentives. Either returning vacation days, or more consecutive days off, or increasing salary, or a combination of them. BTW, that's what other companies do when they need to relocate staff to Riyadh. Up to 20%.
New CEO gives some hope and, from the other hand, some doubts. You will most probably work harder for the same money...

[polax52]

What did the new CEO say? I was unable to logon:{

[Just_landed]

Guys i have recently become a free bird from my current employer. So I am peacefully exploring all A320 capt options in middle east now. Could you be kind enough to enlighten me with the package and perks. I have been with 3 Airlines in the past, none in the desert though, but I think I have learnt enough to realise that every business house has its own set of problems. Just keen on getting the salary package and perks details. Your help would be much appreciated.

Regards,

[metro301]

No one will post salary details on line

[Just_landed]

I am not asking the package of one person in specific my friend. Just a general sketch as the website only educates about the requirement and other standard jabber jabber but not the money.

Somebody please share the knowledge.

[Romasik]

What did the new CEO say? I was unable to logon:{

Just general greetings. Nothing specific. It does't matter. At the moment we can only guess what a westerner can do in this environment. So we have both hopes and worries:)

[polax52]

Wow:).....what about my August vacation?

Could the 18 be back to back, so that I get 36 at home?

[metro301]

Just Landed,

Nothing personal towards you. It is just a long standing rule of thumb on the forum not to post salary specifics. Too many ex-wives, girlfriends and tax authorities lurking and looking for discrepancies. Inaccurate information posted here can very easily and has very easily caused audits and headaches.

[Ghostiix]

I quickly read through the thread missing some pages and such and I didn't see anyone talking about the applying for training process and how does it work.

Basically I'm a Saudi in 11th grade with next year being his last school year, I've been dreaming of becoming a pilot ever since i saw my first plane.

Several questions

to a Saudi pilot, what was the process to get into the cadet pilot program cause the Saudia website doesn't have any info about it.

To anyone, is the studying part hard ?, Tiring ?
And is it worth it at the end ?

Thank you
- a curious kid

[mutt]

@Ghostiix

The first thing to remember is that most of us are expats so we came to Saudi as qualified pilots. You are therefore more likely to find the information that you require on arabic sites as it is obviously the native language of the people seeking the cadet jobs.

AFAIK, there are two ways for cadets to join:
1: Go train to CPL/ME/IR standards at your own expense, i believe that this costs around SAR350,000 in Saudi with either Rabaigh Wings or SAFA.
2: Get accepted in the Government college graduate program where you will obtain a BSc in Aviation studies with the CLP/MR/IR, this takes about 4 years.

There is a lot of study involved, but its based on the American system so it isn't rocket science.

Have you tried flying the B777 simulator in the Red Sea Mall Jeddah? This might give you an idea of where you could be in 5 years time :)

Good Luck

[polax52]

So my guess for Saudia 2020, with the reawakening of Flyadeal, is the proposed 200 aircraft fleet will actually comprise 50 aircraft at flyadeal and 150 at Saudia, so no major expansion of Saudia. It also looks like a shift towards the Spanish IAG model.

[metro301]

If they will staff the positions from current SVA employees, I don't think we would see any signs of recruitment. Much like Supervisors, Fleet Managers, GM Flying etc, there is already a short list of candidates. These would be guys already known to Gaca, approval should not be to much of a pain.

[polax52]

There may be some delay but flyadeal is going to happen. It's the way that they want to move the airline "group" forward. It's like IAG with Vueling, Vueling is now bigger than Iberia. They need to move into a company which has lower costs. Nothing could be more clear.

[North_Bedouin]

If flydeal will take a piece of cake from SV revenue without taking the same piece from SV costs then how SV will deal with the fixed costs remaining on their accounts? Part of direct operating costs will be shifted, but SV ground staff, IT and other fixed costs will remain the same.
For me their business case is unclear yet.

[mutt]

No more sandwiches and fruit for crew..... what is the airline coming to?

[Icelanta]

The sandwiches are sometimes the best part of the catering!

[Flyboy_SG]

I'm glad they gave the annual pay hike at least ! Finally.

[guiones]

Only on some flights Mutt, we got them today on international flight out if JED.

[guiones]

Flyboy, retroactive too!

[mutt]

Another interesting change is that the Eid holidays will be reduced to 4 days rather than 10.

[Top gun pilot 797]

All this whilst over 250 expat pilots rot in a sub standard 2 star hotel per force.
Some with a family of 5 members living in a 2 room 'suite'. As Crown Town Managment would like to call it !
:\ :ugh: :\ :eek:

[mutt]

250!! Wow.... with the number of housing units under completion within the compound, I'm surprised that they haven't started moving people out from the hotel or even to RUH.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Housing units under completion....?
Mutt, are you referring to units or villas in the compound in Jeddah by any chance ...?!

[mutt]

Various apartments, villas etc are all undergoing renovation and a lot are at the stage of having furniture delivered. So there has to be room for you guys soon :)

[Top gun pilot 797]

The apartments where furniture was being delivered has been cancelled.
And the Saudia city compound has started to look more and more like a distant dream. Only moving further and further with time...

[mutt]

The apartments where furniture was being delivered has been cancelled. Strange as i can look out my window and see their delivery trucks.

[Top gun pilot 797]

I don't think we're talking about the same compound.
The only one that I'm aware of is a block of 8-10 6 floor duplex apartment buildings with a small pool in the middle of the buildings. Close to the airport.
Best of my knowledge that contract has been cancelled.
The trucks are probably shunting the furniture out now !
Or maybe continue to shunt it in for some other company.
This cancellation was in anticipation of a mass exodus to RUH with the 20/10 as bait... ��

[mutt]

Aha, I'm talking about the original Saudia City.

[Semaphore Sam]

Hi Ya'll...
History repeats...my family (and many others) waited 3 years in Sharbotly Village, and various others scattered in apartments around Jeddah, for the 'original Saudia City' to open; when it finally happened, my daughter came home with the news from PCS ('81, or '82) from 2nd or 3rd grade (news not announced to us, but to students at the school; 2 days allowed for move). Hardest was, having made 2 5-gallon jugs of red finest, I chickened out and dumped them (after having drunk as much as possible at open bar party) to make move. I always regretted my cowardice, until I heard of old hand brit stopped by police a few years ago and jailed, having been caught transporting red in car in Jeddah. I think he was threatened with flogging and whipping, and was finally deported. Good luck to all; who knows, Riyadh might not be as bad as most think. I have no regrets about my 27 years in the Magic Kingdom, friends I made were...Magic! Sam

[Top gun pilot 797]

Mutt.
If that's in fact the case and you are right, then that's the best news for most of us yet.
Most of us are rotting in 3rd grade damp backpacker hotel rooms with numerous complains falling on deaf ears.
This has to be the biggest let down with Saudia so far and is going to defer many a potential captain joining their ranks.

[metro301]

I fear that the RUH compound will further deter many new joiners. Hopefully the pics making their way around the forums are not correct.

[fireball_23]

Last news I received from the office mentioned a Hotel instead of a compound. Pray to stay away from the amazing Makarem...
Metro301 : where did you find the pics ?

[metro301]

Fireball, internal whatsapp groups, sorry I can't share the actual photos. They were being passed around yesterday by guys that saw the place.

[fireball_23]

Alright ! Thanks for the reply anyway :)

[Top gun pilot 797]

I have seen the compound.
Compound is an open compound completely unfinished. Work in progress with an open ended completion date. Smack in the middle of nowhere. Need a car to get to the closest mall. Some international schools within a 10 km radius but the one I visited for my pre teen kid was full upuntil 2018 ....!!! :eek:
I have seen it personally but I can't post the pics.
So for all RUH based pilots, think long think hard.

[Flyfirst]

Hi guys,
Is Saudia hiring any expat DECs for B787 now?
What are the requirements for B787 DEC?
Howz the salary and roster?
Are pilots given a choice to choose a base, or it's decided by the company?
Thanks a lot.

[mutt]

I didn't think that they hired for the 787 at all during the last year as it's a desirable fleet. As for base, effective 1st March, the new Riyadh pilot base will open with immense fanfare and even more immense chaos, I would hazard a guess that any new hires would go there without any choice.
The plus side of RUH is 10 days off per month, the downsides include no place to live (presently), no family and lower salary due to less flying.

[Flyfirst]

Thanks a lot mutt. I have around 10,000 hours. 5600 jet (all on B737s, mostly on B738.)
What positions can I apply for at Saudia? (like B747 or B777 FO etc.) And what are the salaries for 777/ 747 FOs?
Also, is there any bond if they train on new type?

[mutt]

With those hours you need to stay away as you will be a permanent First Officer if you join SVA. I also believe that they have stopped all foreign recruitment as its also rumoured that they wont renew expat FO contracts due to overstaffing.
If you operate under FAR's, get yourself typed, claim half your hours as PIC, and apply in this part of the world as PIC.

[Flyfirst]

Thanks mutt.

[argentina21]

If you operate under FAR's, get yourself typed, claim half your hours as PIC, and apply in this part of the world as PIC.

Really?! Is this practice legit?

[mutt]

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

If the person is asked for PIC time, then its legit if somewhat grey!

[PILOTHEAD]

No listing for 787 jobs. Looks like everything else though

[zamim]

Need some sort of assistance from SV Forummers
My son who is A330 First Officer with SV has a 3-year contract is on one month leave in Feb but could not return to JED since his multiple entries visa has expired in Feb.
He has sent emails and personal messages to Chief Pilot and other relevant people but so far nobody has responded.
He is not sure what is his status now.
Appreciate it very much if some one could assist him
Thank you and regards
p.s. can contact me directly if reqd

[Easy Peasy]

Need some sort of assistance from SV Forummers
My son who is A330 First Officer with SV has a 3-year contract is on one month leave in Feb but could not return to JED since his multiple entries visa has expired in Feb.
He has sent emails and personal messages to Chief Pilot and other relevant people but so far nobody has responded.
He is not sure what is his status now.
Appreciate it very much if some one could assist him
Thank you and regards
p.s. can contact me directly if reqd

Is there a valid reason that he did not renew his entry/ exit visa prior to his annual leave?

I've witnessed this and I don't think I've ever seen a successful return outcome unless you have serious wasta. Considering they are no longer renewing expat FO contracts, the best advice may be to start looking for employment while he is still current.

Best of luck.

[zamim]

Is there a valid reason that he did not renew his entry/ exit visa prior to his annual leave?

I've witnessed this and I don't think I've ever seen a successful return outcome unless you have serious wasta. Considering they are no longer renewing expat FO contracts, the best advice may be to start looking for employment while he is still current.

Best of luck.
He didn't check it, thus, no excuses for him though.
If SV were to terminate his contract, sure there would be an official letter of termination? And for him to settle a few things and get his stuffs from the hotel.
yeah, he is enquiring for jobs back home.

[Romasik]

Need some sort of assistance from SV Forummers
My son who is A330 First Officer with SV has a 3-year contract is on one month leave in Feb but could not return to JED since his multiple entries visa has expired in Feb.
He has sent emails and personal messages to Chief Pilot and other relevant people but so far nobody has responded.
He is not sure what is his status now.
Appreciate it very much if some one could assist him
Thank you and regards
p.s. can contact me directly if reqd
He can still come to KSA within 7 month from the visa expiry date, provided he has a valid Iqama. Requires some paper work from the sponsor's (Saudi Arabian Airlines) side. I don't think e-mail will help. It takes personal vists to certain Saudia offices to get the job done. The visitor's rank matters. Captain is prefered.

[Top gun pilot 797]

One thing for sure is shocking, to say the least here in Saudia.
The amount of extra leverage and open partiality that the US / British passport holder gets here in Saudia....!!!
It really is quite amazing.
I know of a US expat Captain whose multi entry expired literally on the 2nd day of his 40 day leave whilst in Jamaica. And he was back at work in KSA on the 41st day ! :* :sad:
Simply waltzed in. I know of another Egyptian who was terminated for much much less regarding the same visa issue.
Promotions, flying hours, housing, medical standards and general treatment. The Americans are always given unconditional preferential treatment. Whilst still being on the same contracts as all the other 100 or so nationalities.
It's a Lawsuit lawyers paradise here. And somebody's gonna sue real soon.
I assure you on that....:=
If you're not from the other side of the pond, reconsider your options.
This is the fine print that is never printed !!
But spoken of openly.
Like I said it's an advocate's paradise :cool:

[mutt]

Promotions, flying hours, housing, medical standards and general treatment Have a look at the latest A320 IP class, how many are Americans? Look at the big houses in Saudia city, how many were assigned to Americans in recent years?
Good luck with the court case.

[metro301]

It's a Lawsuit lawyers paradise here. And somebody's gonna sue real soon.

Like I said it's an advocate's paradise :cool:

LMFAO

Yeah.... KSA and frivolous lawsuits go hand in hand :ok::rolleyes: Good luck with that.

Having been here a fair amount of time, I have seen all nationalities terminated for cause. Americans and Canadians included. Maybe... It is the attitude you bring to the table.

[metro301]

I know of a US expat Captain whose multi entry expired literally on the 2nd day of his 40 day leave whilst in Jamaica. And he was back at work in KSA on the 41st day ! :* :sad:

Capts get 45 days and rarely take it altogether at once, so how well did you really "know of a US expat" ?

[fireball_23]

As a Saudi Airlines crew member, ( even NAS ) you have 6 days to come back to the kingdom if your visa has expired. ( provided you pay something like 1200 SAR at the immigration office when you arrive at the airport )
It happened a couple of times and there is an office at the airport that deals with this kind of issues. That's the way it is, and not only for Europeans or Americans.

[Top gun pilot 797]

"Having been here a fair amount of time, I have seen all nationalities terminated for cause. Americans and Canadians included. Maybe... It is the attitude you bring to the table"

Metro.
It's not always or even essentially a termination or a recruitment of a particular nationality that dictates preferential treatments.
Much lesser preferential evils can exist behind the garb and still affect ones daily life here. And they do !
Undeniably.

[metro301]

Top Gun, agreed, but your original post made it seem much more stratified than it actually is. KSA and SVA do have preferences as to who they invite to work, that is their right, we are not dealing with a secular western society. A little reading or research before hand would have brought all that to light.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Sadly, reading and / or research never seems to bring these grey areas in dark alleys to light.
Look what happened to my posting...:ouch:

[mutt]

What do you think happened to your posting ?

[teamflyer]

Hi all, is Saudi hiring Expat NTR FO's?

[coolbreez]

Hi any news about the 777-200 phase out freez , lots of back room chatter that they might be making a come back can any body confirm or dismiss this info and if true how will this effect hiring and upgrading .
For info all lateral movement from 777 to 787/330 has stopped .

[Top gun pilot 797]

772 to be initially phased out by March end.
Anybody's guess when now.
Lines are out with them flying all over. Also worth noting is that there are fewer MEL's on the 772's ( as against 6 months ago ).
A sign of retention I suppose...

[metro301]

It is a mandatory position, if he was sacked they will have an acting GM in place almost immediately. They would not have sacked un-prepared. I think this about the 7th or 8th GM I have seen.

[metro301]

Oh. I don't doubt for a minute a changing of the guard. My only point was that the office would be filled with someone else almost immediately.

[mutt]

VAMY, this is the way it always happens, I was actually surprised that the present guy got the position so I'm not surprised that he didn't last.
There will be a GM(A), but as you said he won't have the required approvals in SAP to approve anything.

[Top gun pilot 797]

New GM in place.

[mutt]

Let me correct that for you.... New GM(A) in place.

[Flyboy_SG]

3 months waiting for New uniform issue. This is plain bull ****.

[Romasik]

3 months waiting for New uniform issue. This is plain bull ****.
Isn't it ready? I flew with two first offices who got it already.

[Flyboy_SG]

Nope, this is latest.

[mutt]

@VAMY.... HR and IT..... Once the person is sitting in the seat he has the authority to sign whatever is authorised for his position, so it needs IT to implement that authority into SAP.

[Flyboy_SG]

What is it with the latest safety meeting Vamy? things got really hot I heard.

[metro301]

I wish the new CEO better luck with his next employment endeavour.

Is what anyone that knows how SVA works internally will be saying shortly.

[777AV8R]

The ICAO Annex 6 and Doc. 8335 require operators to have a FDM program. The lack of implementation was caught in the ICAO USOAP and is considered very serious.

[metro301]

Vamy,

We shall see..... Seems like open rebellion against the new CEO. If you think that a low cost airline guy from Europe is going to remain standing, then you Sir, need to pull your head of your ass.

I wish him luck, but reality is something different here.

The only change I have noticed over the last year or so is the number of expats b1thcing and moaning publicly on how bad things are here.

[metro301]

In addition.... If you have been around as long as you say, you should know that without a doubt, GM's, VP's and EVP's get changed around on average every 2 years like clock work. The EVP position was only created a few years ago, so none were actually "long serving" in their current position. Having a few removed recently doesn't really tell us anything.

[777AV8R]

777AV8R, you are correct. The lack of a properly implemented and functioning FDM program is indeed considerd a very serious transgression of ICAO Annex 6-Doc. 8335. The more germane question is why it has not been implemented? I believe the answer to that question is obvious to many and certainly to the CEO.

Metro301, with respect, you need to "pull your head out of your ass" and have a good look at what is going on around you. I first came to Saudi Arabia in 1982, so I too have a long experience of this place. Without doubt the Kingdom is certainly on the change. I'd suggest you take the 2020 Transformation initiative and the 2030 programs seriously. They are both run by the Deputy Crown Prince and the Crown Prince. As long as they are controlling these programs the changes will move ahead.

Why do you think so many long serving EVP's and VP's have been removed from their positions recently and with such stronge criticism from Higher management?
Its the culture of not doing the right thing because its viewed as not important. The whole ME works in a reactive mode. The majority of States who have an effective oversight system operates in a preventive philsophy. Not until the operator or the State runs up against a serious incident/accident, will they ever change. When ICAO returns on an ICVM and the LEIs remain, this will be a good signal to ICAO/FAA to downgrade their status.

[mdysf]

Hi All i am planning to train with Saudi flying academy located in Riyadh www.saflightacademy.com and or the prince sultan aviation academy also i am looking for Alpha aviation academy , can some one tell me any chances if trained with Saudi flight academy ?

[mutt]

Most if not all of the posters here are expatriate pilots, therefore they came to Saudi as qualified pilots rather than initial trainees, so its not a good place to ask your questions. However we all train with PSAA for airline required training, PSAA doesn't train people to obtain a licence.
You need to find some ex-students of SAFA and see if they school actually delivered as expected and in the time expected.
Good Luck.

[mutt]

Saudia B747 incident at Jeddah, where the crew had a double engine failure and emergency return after they shut down the wrong engine. A serious engine fire occurred and a very serious accident was narrowly avoided, definitely more by luck than judgement.
OK, what was the name of the Captain who did the takeoff and what was the name of the Captain who landed?

[metro301]

Vamy,

Your pedigree is certainly formidable.

The initial information you post is also very accurate.

I have issues with the conclusions that you draw. I believe you to be wrong on many counts.

When this CEO doesn't have his contract re-newed, or he departs early, I will gladly accept a drink on your tab.

As for 2020/2030, I don't think there is any sane expat rooting against success. It would be lovely to see the country advance to a more sophisticated level. That being said, the resistance to the winds of change are pretty strong. Rather than having unbridled optimism, I hold a more realistic outlook with a strong dose of hopefulness.

[Flyboy_SG]

Ruh based pilots are still living in Makarim. In Jeddah, people are being tossed around here and there.

[mutt]

In Jeddah, people are being tossed around here and there

Tossed around?

@VAMY, excellent memory good sir.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Slightly off topic I did a Haj many moons ago with Laker and was staying in the Sands Hotel in Jeddah. We arrived in the middle of the night. The next morning I got up went to the pool and "bombed" one of our staff. I slightly misjudged though and I'm told I managed to "hit" someone next to the pool - One Idi Amin.... Fortunately there was not enough meat on me for him to eat me...

[mutt]

He lived in the Sands hotel for years, used to find him in the local supermarket each Friday.

[Flyboy_SG]

yeah, from hotel to hotel...

[metro301]

Vamy, surprisingly close timing on this article to help make my point:

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21721405-cuts-pay-and-perks-government-workers-are-abruptly-reversed-saudi-arabias

Change does not come easily nor rapidly here.

[metro301]

Agreed.

But.... Which will the masses choose

[Old Boeing Driver]

I knew Paddy back in his 737 days. Great guy and an excellent pilot. Good thing he was at the controls.

[metro301]

Metro301,

I don't know the term of the CEO's contract, for all I know he may not even have a renewable contract. Consequently, I can't speculate on whether or not it'll be renewed. However, if he gets "the boot" or "handed his hat and coat" or leaves prematurely, then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong in my assessment. Then you'll be more than welcome to get "**** faced" on my tab!


I like my "TEA" with diet pepsi. Chief transformation officer MR. M.B. has had his resignation accepted along with a few others effective today.

[mutt]

Interesting, I thought that he would hold out at least until 2020.....

[metro301]

Pepsi going back into the fridge, European CEO still in place as far as i can tell.

[dieana]

Is the portal available to apply? I go to Saudia Web Page but it do not lead to the application page.

[mutt]

@metro301 COO also gone replaced with VP Safety. These two brothers really have risen in the airline management.

[Top gun pilot 797]

VP Safety was earlier GM Standards. Am I right. Same person? A Pilot.

[mutt]

Nope, it was his brother who is now MD Royal. Both are pilots.

[metro301]

One of the brothers was my supervisor when I first started here, great guy.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Surprisingly, all the top brass at present are pretty decent guys.
Let's hope there's more positive spins off of this story...
��

[argentina21]

This article is a month old, but still informative.

Albrecht aims to pilot Saudia back to its ?glory days? | Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/node/1090731/business-economy)

[mutt]

Are we seriously going back that far?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Airlines-Asia/Airlines-Saudi-Arabia/Saudi-arabian-airlines/i-Ps9pqdf/0/d9d9b15d/L/Saudi%20Arabian%20DC-3%20HZ-AAX%20%28OC%29%28Grd%29%20BAH%20%28RSW%29%2846%29-L.jpg

[Flyboy_SG]

Wonder what was the glory days are like...

[Top gun pilot 797]

I remember the thick lush carpets in their first class cabins back in the 90's.
Something I've never seen since

[Flyboy_SG]

Thanks for the Enlightenment VAMY. Inshallah.




Proposed Accommodation allowance.... What a joke !!!

[mutt]

Flyboy_SG,

In Saudia the concept of glass half empty glass half full applies, yours always appears to be half empty, so I have to ask the question, why do you stay?

[Top gun pilot 797]

Mutt.
I think he's talking about the 35k & 50k PA housing allowance offer to FO's and Capt's respectively in lieu of staying at Saudi City.
It truly is a joke.
Someone wants all the pilots to participate in the survey with a resounding NO.
That ensures this someone keeps getting his kickbacks from the various hotels that are housing these pilots in Jed and Ruh..!
Off now..

[Flyboy_SG]

Mutt,

I'm sure you are enjoying your cozy villa as we speak. Accommodation is a big issue for us right now. It has been 20 months since joining and no sign of getting a villa/apt in the saudia city ! All we got was this ridiculous 35/50k acc allowance per annum email !!!
I have already shifted to three places with family.

It is not about half empty/full story. It is about **** happening around here. BTW I'm not staying here anyways. Just awaiting contract completion.

[Capt_CheeseDick]

Arrhh the graft, corruption and kickbacks continue... and we thought that would end when adnan was caught red-handed and booted out.
There are so many vacant Units all over the Saudi compound... 3 actually in my little section of street. :ugh:

[Flyboy_SG]

Thanks VAMY,


Very much possible. But I have witnessed some units being furnished.
We had a meeting with big bosses recently. They have promised us that about 48 units are gona be ready by August. Lets see what happens. As far as saudia us concerned even the locals are not happy with the way things are going on. Time to fill our buckets before something goes wrong seriously.

Happy Landings

[Flyboy_SG]

�� lol , it's August 2017.

who knows may be the meeting was just an eye wash.

A big change is coming for sure. yes,locals aren't happy, but they wouldn't leave either. They cannot survive other airline culture.

[metro301]

Mutt.
I think he's talking about the 35k & 50k PA housing allowance offer to FO's and Capt's respectively in lieu of staying at Saudi City.
It truly is a joke.
Someone wants all the pilots to participate in the survey with a resounding NO.
That ensures this someone keeps getting his kickbacks from the various hotels that are housing these pilots in Jed and Ruh..!
Off now..

When I first arrived, Westerners were not allowed to rent on the free market, except in compounds with proper "security". This was shortly after the Al Khobar incident. The allowance at that time was 3X your monthly base salary. I am not sure if the security requirement has changed, but they had stopped offering that allowance back then.

A new allowance of 35-50k SAR per year, won't even get a decent drivers shack in most compounds.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Like I said earlier. The whole idea of offering the 'allowance' was for it to be refused.
And conveniently followed by a companwide survey.
This way the corruptors that be, have a legitimate and well documented 'refusal' of their generous offer. Thereby continuing to justify pay to keep new hires in expensive hotels whilst enjoying the kickbacks from the same.
My 2 Kronos worth

[metro301]

There's an awful lot of "forelock tugging", "cap doffing" and ass kissing on display by the various expat groups.

That my friend is evident in all aspects of the operation. It is readily apparent by the way we are starting to be treated by all walks of employees. I think many must have lost a nut during their move over here.

Just in the past month I have had stuff pulled on me that no one would have dared to try even a year back.

[mutt]

The low ball rental allowance on offer represents the same strategy. Isnt the rental offer the same that is presently provided to Saudi nationals?

[mutt]

VAMY, I would be extremely disappointed if they offered me 50,000 SAR per year for accommodation, but that is exactly what they did to all employees of the SBU's who weren't flight crew or western, in fact they paid them 3x basic salary.

There is an easy solution to the housing issue, they could easily renovate the 70 odd apartments in NC8 that were previously used by the Winter Group and Al-Salaam, the construction of these apartments would allow them to be occupied following limited renovation and at a cost substantially less than the massive amounts getting paid today to renovate places that will only last a limited number of years due to salt damage. But once again it appears that someone is making something out of this massive renovation so it will continue.
I feel sorry for people staying in hotels for 12 months or more, it isn't right and needs to be rectified.

[Chocks Away]

Renos?
The going rate for one of the "Adnan Specials" was 1 mill' SAR, walk away, no more to pay, on road, fitted out, key in hand 😁 (2 story 3 bdr townhouse). Many fingers in the pie at that price of course, especially when there's a storage warehouse near the mosque, full of a lot of new equipment/furnishings ready to use. Adnan is not around anymore of course. No idea what the current cost would be, after his departure and change of the Compound Maintenance company.

The Motel upgrade looks great, yes. Long overdue. I think it's an Egyptian mob doing it?

[Flyboy_SG]

I was offered a new motel unit, I refused. Those dumb heads designed it without a kitchen. It's just like a hotel room, not suitable for long stay. People are staying in hotels for 24+ months Mutt. It's quite hard.

Apparently one FO got so fed up and rented an apartment on his own for thrice the allowance amount, and refused to accept the allowance too !

[Majed.m.h]

Now saudia provide Riyadh base pilots brand new Compund

[Top gun pilot 797]

What's the name of the compound Majed. Is it villas or apartments?

[mutt]

"town house meeting today"..... might be interesting :)

[Top gun pilot 797]

Mutt.
How was the meeting. Anything from the usual?

[mutt]

Those who attended, both Saudi and non-Saudi appeared to have enjoyed it and found it extremely positive. But i don't believe that they presented any specific changes.

[Flyboy_SG]

@ Majed & @ Top gun - yes it's very nice. I had a look at it. 2 n 3 bhk compound with UG parking, gym, cinema, basket ball court, etc. Marvella community.

https://g.co/kgs/4KioUH


@ Mutt - Looks like it was a good entertainment. Just a like a movie we watch it and forget it.

[Flyboy_SG]

But looks like not much of flying in Ruh base.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Not much of flying for what fleet?

[Flyboy_SG]

Any fleet. how much can you fly max in 20 days anyways.

[metro301]

On the 320:

90-95 if it was scheduled incredibly efficiently.

I am guessing they will be doing minimum guarantee at least with a few hours of OT.

No shortage of domestic round trips out of RUH.

[beamender99]

Saudia Airlines warn passengers of strict dress code - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40862235)

[Joker11]

Saudia Airlines warn passengers of strict dress code - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40862235)

Why would I fly with Saudia anyways...

[mutt]

Its free :)

[atila_101]

Its free :)

Staff travel with SV is quite expensive, sure ACM is free but at the risk of being abused and mistreated by some supervisors. My experience is to travel using ZED, you can enjoy a glass of wine on business class and being treated with some decency and respect.... And don't need to dress like a clown.

[mutt]

My experience is traveling First Class on a term pass :)

[metro301]

Term Pass is GOLD it almost makes up for all the years put in. I gave up on ACM the last few years before term pass kicked in.

[Top gun pilot 797]

ACM v/s Term pass.
Apples and Oranges

[Flyboy_SG]

Staff travel with SV is quite expensive, sure ACM is free but at the risk of being abused and mistreated by some supervisors. My experience is to travel using ZED, you can enjoy a glass of wine on business class and being treated with some decency and respect.... And don't need to dress like a clown.

I second. For new joiners yeah. Not for ten year old veterans.

[320330kutscher]

After 5 years Qatar im now in Saudi , and I like it more.
Guess were from the same Homeland,where Merkel is the Boss.
Cheers

[Flyboy_SG]

I bet, QR has its own share of scary stories. We have a lot of ex qataris.

[mutt]

Guess were from the same Homeland,where Merkel is the Boss.

Nope not me, I have my licenses and I'm sitting in a seat for which I'm qualified, unlike some of my colleagues from Merkel land, (if rumors are to be believed.)

[atila_101]

If rumors are to be believed not just Germans.... some captains from south of the Equator and from across the Atlantic are in the wrong seat.

[igig]

Sorry, not specific to Saudia, ....but anyone have any insight into a VVIP Riyadh based A320 which is currently recruiting.
Thanks.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/58926-saudi-arabias-flyadeal-adds-maiden-aircraft-an-a320

[mutt]

I wonder how it'll be before Saudia begins the process of migrating it's unprofitable domestic and near region routes to the much lower cost base LCC FlyAdeal? Not long now, I would Imagine? Doesn't that go against the concept of having an airline that doesn't need government subsidies? A lot of the loss making routes are fare controlled by government rules.

[mutt]

So why aren't these routes working for Saudi Gulf? If rumours are to be believed they are suffering.

[North_Bedouin]

Those loss making routes that you mention that are presently "fare controlled" are likely unprofitable because of Saudia's ridiculous high cost base. If moved to a carrier with a dramatically lower cost base those routes will likely generate a profit. That'll be the rationale behind moving them to FlyAdeal.

Presently domestic flights become really "fare controlled" by competitors, not by government.
Compare base fares for some main domestic routes, e.g. JED-RUH for any date after Hajj:
Nesma - 190SR ~42EUR which can cover an A320 seat cost for 1:45 hour flight (I compare with W6 or FR numbers)
Nasair - 250SR
Gulfair - 306SR
Saudia - 339SR

Anyway, what then will happen with Saudia's ridiculous high cost base which will remain in main company?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Vamy
Are you sure you got the right bloke???

[metro301]

Vamy,

1) Definitely correct, cost base is ridiculous.

2) As for the other guy, this is more than "skeletons in the closet", a DUI, job termination or a violation. This particular guy is accused of spending time in a Sri Lankan prison for claiming Skipper qualifications when he never actually possessed them. It is well documented on the internet with a search of the name.

[Flyboy_SG]

Now the crew hotels are being requested for a new contract without uniform laundry and breakfast to lower costs!

[atila_101]

Now the crew hotels are being requested for a new contract without uniform laundry and breakfast to lower costs!

That did not take long to end up on PPRUNE, just saw the emails a few hours ago, YYZ and IAD is official, no more breakfast and laundry.

[ironbutt57]

This particular guy is accused of spending time in a Sri Lankan prison for claiming Skipper qualifications when he never actually possessed them. It is well documented on the internet with a search of the name.

hahahaha I remember him so very well....and yes, a recent search produced a very interesting article about this fellow in the Chicago Tribune 1994

[mutt]

As you can see this is already begun to happen with the breakfast and laundry being removed from the Saudia hotel contracts. This these extras have any effect on hotel cost or were they "thrown in" by the hotels to get the contracts, as were suites at one stage.

[ironbutt57]

well, my former employer was by no means a major world player, but for flight deck, we had upgraded suite, breakfast (when applicable), and one uniform to laundry...so I guess it depends on what your carrier is able to negotiate..

[and]

As you explained earlier....

[Mr Angry from Purley]

VAMY
Where you a Pilot in a previous life, you're almost coming over as condescending.....

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Vamy
I'm a union man born and bred, so was my Father and his before him. He was General Secretary for the TAGWU.
In that case try not coming over as a know it all......

[polax52]

I hope Saudia can learn from the current Ryanair chaos. You can upset your crew to a certain extent but if you push it beyond that certain point you're going to get a high turnover of Pilots. An efficient training system seems to allow for a 10% annual turnover but once you hit 15%+ then you're grounding large numbers of flights. Saudia couldn't even manage a 10% turnover.

Saudia have large numbers of cadets in the system to fill slots left by people leaving but I don't think even that'll work. The Saudi cadets are highly qualified individuals who have high expectations, when they realize that Saudia will only disappoint it is unlikely they will stick around.

[Flyboy_SG]

Guess what the latest scoop is....
they are forcing people to move to Riyadh base !

[Top gun pilot 797]

Well, by what I hear they have already forced over 100 pilots to Riyadh.
With a one liner email.
'You are posted to RUH WEF 1st Nov'
This place is a joke. Time to runnnnn !!

[mutt]

Have they removed the 10 days off for RUH base?

[Flyboy_SG]

Guess they are planning to but Not yet.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Have they removed the 10 days off for RUH base?

How on earth do they plan to attract pilots to RUH if they withdraw the 10 off?

[polax52]

How on earth do they plan to attract pilots to RUH if they withdraw the 10 off?

They have 200 empty apartments waiting for the expats from JED to join the RUH base. My guess is that all contract renewals will be to the RUH base.

[fireball_23]

They are not planning to remove the 20/10 anytime soon. This " lifestyle " has been offered to Saudis as well for 2018.

[Flyboy_SG]

Thats the way to chop off all the overtime and extra credit hrs due to D/H. 65-80 max credit is what we are looking at on 77.

[Top gun pilot 797]

They are not planning to remove the 20/10 anytime soon. This " lifestyle " has been offered to Saudis as well for 2018.

I'm quite certain not a single saudi has been offered the 20/10 as yet. Which negates the whole purpose of offering it to expats.
If an expat in he middle of his contract is offered RUH base why would he take it if he doesn't get 20/10. It's quite ridiculous really.

[fireball_23]

@Top Gun : It has been offered to Saudis in RUH. Half of them are taking the 20/10 in January.
@Flyboy : You're correct.

[mutt]

The A330 CA Lines for NOV do not have 10 days off in a row.

[Top gun pilot 797]

@Top Gun : It has been offered to Saudis in RUH. Half of them are taking the 20/10 in January.
@Flyboy : You're correct.

Are you indicating at the Saudis who are originally residents of Riyadh. Are these he ones who have been offered 20/10 in Riyadh?

[metro301]

Bid sheet information page, point #8 says - "(10/20) Lifestyle to be bid by non Saudi only".

320 has these lines still.

Very little confirmation on how many people are actually being forced to move to RUH. Only a small handful will confirm they have received an email.

Looks like it is happening in reverse seniority order.

[metro301]

The A330 CA Lines for NOV do not have 10 days off in a row.

To be fair, it is brand new base this November, there are a grand total of 9 lines in RUH for 330.

[fireball_23]

Top Gun : You're right, I should have been more precise. I've only heard about Saudis in Riyadh. I don't know about Jeddah !
Metro : Yes, it says for non Saudi only, but this is the old bulletin. Saudi Capt / FO in Riyadh have been offered the choice when bidding for next year Vacations. Either 20/10 or 30 days vacations.

For the Riyadh base joiners, and until the end of 2017, the lines will be as followed : 20/10 with 5 consecutive days off and 5 reserve days; or on a 25/5 basis. This is because the new joiners had their vacations in 2017, while the ones who joined Ruh base in March were not untitled for it.

[Jack330]

I don't think that the 20/10 has only 5 days in a row, most probably it'll be just like every other 20/10 like Ethiopian for example, 20 work days and 10 consecutive days off, or 25/12, otherwise it makes no sense.
The fact that they moved people without any other choice is not the best way of doing things and most probably, the guys in RUH will also lose all the nice long flights like YYZ MAD MAN and others and most probably sooner or later they will leave.

[metro301]

Jack, they cover the 20/10 schedule using accrued vacation days. People taking the 20/10 don't get an annual 30 day vacation. That leave is basically broken up and distributed on a monthly basis to cover the 20/10 schedule. If a pilot has no accrued leave in the "bank", then the company will replace those "off" days with work days / reserve.

[Jack330]

The 20/10 roster is another thing actually, let me make the same example, in Ethiopia you join directly with 20 work days 10 off days, accrued leave has nothing to do, in the 20/10 there’s no leave anyways.
If you divide 30/12 is 2.5 days, the rest is 7.5.
It’s a strange 20/10 then, not attractive at all and you still lose the best flight.... We’ll see the result.

[metro301]

It’s a strange 20/10 then, not attractive at all and you still lose the best flight.... We’ll see the result.

Yes... It is strange,

[Flyboy_SG]

Apparently some were given just two weeks notice. Even those who have the apartments. It would take at least three months for the lines and the Ruh base to get stabilized imho.

[Top gun pilot 797]

The only thing I can say with complete confidence is that if the company does not start 20/10 for the expats IMMEDIATELY on their arrival into Riyadh, there won't be even 10 percent expats left in Saudia within 3 months. IF EVEN 10 percent !
Because the ONLY reason that each and every expat is moving to Riyadh is the fact that he gets to meet his family for 10 days every month. You take that away and you have nothing.
So if Saudia wants to keep the fleet afloat I feel they should hold up their end of the bargain.

[mutt]

But even with the 10 days off we are hearing stories of mass resignations as those with families in Jeddah or those chasing maximum cash are unhappy.

[Top gun pilot 797]

Getting 20/10 if your family is in Jeddah is as useful as an umbrella in a desert.
And by right, all expats posted to Riyadh have to accept 20/10 ( I could be wrong here).
Which means that even though the forced Riyadh transfer may have been barely acceptable, the 20/10 and consequential salary loss would not !
Thus the 50-60 resignations ...

[metro301]

And by right, all expats posted to Riyadh have to accept 20/10 ( I could be wrong here).


Not true for 320 fleet.

[metro301]

Sorry, I should have added, no one know for sure yet. The 320 folks are more worried on there not being enough 20/10 lines. Everything is rumour at this point, no one is particularly happy.