Saudia

[Flying738ng]

Hello,

The airline gives a no objection certificate or experience certificate for the period of employment with them?
If any one has an idea please PM me regarding it

[Flyboy_SG]

Welcome. That's because they have too many FOs now and most of us are still not done with our PhDs. About 10 aircrafts coming in this year though. Expect them to hire around the end of the year or next.

[Flyboy_SG]

Some of the good destinations are going to 787 fleet. Any idea what are the new destinations they are looking at for 777s?

[Top of drinks]

Anyone know if they are hiring 787 left seat direct entry ?

[Chocks Away]

Arrrh... just a few more airframes than that Flyboy SG:
10 B773's; 10 A330R's and 4 A320neo's by end of year.
So you can see why they're not happy at the failure rates and no-shows by the ex-MAS et all.

Top or drinks: They did initially but doubtful now, as that fleet crew is static now plus internal upgrades to cover, i would guess.

Happy landings:ok:

[alloha]

The 773 is doubtful that are gonna be 10 by the end of the year. But it's 100% that 4 772 will be faced out in December or earlier plus another 2 until February.So the real gain will be 4 frames but keep in mind that further 772 will go for sunbathing somewhere inside OEJN.So there will be no real gain in B777 frames. Furthermore Expect a delay in the 320 NEOS as Airbus is facing huge delays with the engines of the aircraft

[kungfu panda]

Things are not going well on the 777 fleet. With the implementation of 117 from May the credit hours for the FO's are down by 15% and thats not all. No commander upgrades from the 777 FO this year. Only from 330 and 747. Right now there 330 FO's on the T7 with more than 50 in training. Soon enough less hours and less money are coming. Rumors for a drafted letter from local 777 captains and FO's ,asking for a meeting with the management . Captains mostly complaining for rest issues. No one made any case studying on the 117 before applying it to the roster.

The hours of significant overtime were never going to continue at the level of a year or 2 ago. This was a period of rapid 777 fleet growth. The growth over the next 5 years will be the A330, before returning to the 777 again when/if the X is delivered.

[guiones]

Alloha, A320's are not NEO; they are CEO(Current Engine Option). No delay expected.

[alloha]

Kungfu Panda , in the last 10-12 months T777 FO's were flying around the average hours (78) . But now they are 15% less . The cancellation of the command upgrade is the main reason.With 40-50 people going for command the hours would still be around the average 78 (keep in mind that lots of people still in training).

[alloha]

@guiones Thanks for the clarification .Still they need lots of skippers on the 320 .They asked from some people to give away their holidays in May because they were short

[volare_737]

Hi all - I have been looking back many pages on here ( maybe not enough ) and can't find any indication on 320 Captain remuneration. Anybody willing to share some info on Pay ?

[mutt]

Anybody willing to share some info on Pay ? You won't find it online as it is considered a sensitive subject to those that pay tax in their home countries.

[c560xl]

Can anybody tell me staff travel benefits with SV. I mean to say ID tickets and family friends. Can,t find any info any where.
Thanks in advance

[polax52]

Some current information which may already be out there: All forthcoming recruitment of foreign contract Pilots will be directed only to the Airbus fleets.
I understand that this is because the Saudi's are bidding almost entirely when they're given the option to move from the Airbus fleets over to the 777 or the 787.


This leaves regional and shorthaul to new contract Pilots.

[igig]

Does that include 330 or only 320?

[polax52]

For the foreseeable future there will be recruitment of foreign contractors to both the A330 and the A320.


I understand that, from this Month, no new contractor will be deployed to Boeing Fleets.

[Busy B]

Hello,


1- Regarding the hiring interview process, is the written test based on the full ATP question bank? Do I need to take an E6B calculator with me or is it based on regulation and IFR with no calculations required?
2- I have seen a web site offering a preparation to the interview (for a price), including a math test prep. Should I consider it?


I would appreciate the help, thanks.

[polax52]

Busy - It's not that complicated. I would just go to the interview with a pen and a calculator. You probably won't even need those.


If you really want the job then I would say the prep is worth it. The guy selling you the prep has feedback from previous interviews so it can't hurt.

[Busy B]

I am curious about your training "atmosphere" experience.


Can you share some gold nuggets here?


Have you found some solidarity between the trainees with everyone helping each others or was it pretty much each one for itself and everyone else left behind?


Since the training seems to last a long time, it is something I would consider

[Gio3]

I am curious about your training "atmosphere" experience.


Can you share some gold nuggets here?


Have you found some solidarity between the trainees with everyone helping each others or was it pretty much each one for itself and everyone else left behind?

Since the training seems to last a long time, it is something I would consider

Hi busy, I haven't found the prep test, could you please send me the link e site?
Thanks a lot.

[alloha]

I am curious about your training "atmosphere" experience.


Can you share some gold nuggets here?


Have you found some solidarity between the trainees with everyone helping each others or was it pretty much each one for itself and everyone else left behind?


Since the training seems to last a long time, it is something I would consider
Well you must be really busy cause if you go through the thread you will find the nuggets you are looking for. A short handful advise? Its more about acting than training. For further details go throygh the thread.

[one mile]

Hi everyone,
Any infos on the current B777 fo recruitment process? Seems to be cancelled!

[Busy B]

Hi busy, I haven't found the prep test, could you please send me the link e site?
Thanks a lot.

Here it is, I have not purchased it so I don't know about accuracy or quality of content.


Saudi Arabian Airlines Pilot Interview and Assessment-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/interviews/view/subject/Saudi%20Arabian%20Airlines%20Pilot%20Interview%20and%20Asses sment)

[Busy B]

Well you must be really busy cause if you go through the thread you will find the nuggets you are looking for. A short handful advise? Its more about acting than training. For further details go throygh the thread.

Thank you Alloha,
Well, yes... I've been busy perusing the last two years of this thread and although I could read that attitude is key (always is, isn't it?), I couldn't find much about solidarity between new hires.
I will assume there is a good one and if not, act like there is a good one anyway :ok:

[Flyboy_SG]

LPJ is of no use. Anyone with decent knowledge and good aptitude should crack it with no preparation.

[alloha]

Hi everyone,
Any infos on the current B777 fo recruitment process? Seems to be cancelled!
True. No more hiring on the 777 . Only for 320

[mutt]

Only for 320 It would be nice to see that stopped and internal upgrades to begin again, otherwise there are going to be a number of extremely unhappy 58 year old expat FO's.

[argentina21]

True. No more hiring on the 777 . Only for 320
My understanding is that they are not hiring FOs at all right now for any aircraft (they never did hire expat FOs for the A320). Can someone confirm this?

[Flying738ng]

Hello guys,

I am leaving ksa.needed some info regarding the final exit. When you exit the country does the immigration puts a final exit stamp on the passport, signifying that you left the country on final exit

[fireball_23]

It is a very good question since tons of pilots are looking to leave

[mutt]

You leave on a EXIT visa rather than a EXIT/RE-ENTRY visa, so the immigration with stamp EXIT in your passport. If you want to prove that you left then it would be a good idea to print a copy of your visa from evisa.sa

I hope that you find the sand is less brown in the east.

[flightfaa]

Base of Riyadh is the talk after training.

[polax52]

flightfaa- Does that apply to any particular aircraft or is it all fleets?

[flightfaa]

The A330 as Im aware, not to sure about the rest.

[Chocks Away]

Big base wanted for A320 and smaller B777 one.
Not sure if new recruit contracts are to be there but I know some contract renewals are.
It changes daily anyway ;)

Happy Landings:ok:

[polax52]

Chocks- I think you're right about the contract renewals.


It may change daily but the compound in Riyadh exists therefore it's going to happen.


Forget the block of 10 though, that will never happen.

[mickey11]

Do you guys talking about forced relocation to Riyadh at contract renewal?

[polax52]

I don't think that any Jeddah based line Captain will be forced. I do think that new hires and people who don't yet have their star or people changing fleet will just be told that the base is now Riyadh. It will be told diplomatically to them by their fleet supervisor, like he his no choice it comes from above him. It will happen though, they want the Riyadh base now as soon as possible, the accommodation is in place.

[buswind]

I don't think that any Jeddah based line Captain will be forced. I do think that new hires and people who don't yet have their star or people changing fleet will just be told that the base is now Riyadh. It will be told diplomatically to them by their fleet supervisor, like he his no choice it comes from above him. It will happen though, they want the Riyadh base now as soon as possible, the accommodation is in place.

Captains that are currently flying the line an the 330, I know that you get 5 days block of days off but can you easily make it around 10 days off block with swaps ?

[LNAV VNAV -]

http://www.arabnews.com/node/933946/saudi-arabia

JEDDAH: The Shoura Council’s finance committee is backing a proposed tax on the remittances of expats, starting from 6 percent in the first year and gradually reducing to 2 percent permanently from the fifth year onward.
The tax proposal was drafted by Hossam Al-Anqari, head of the General Auditing Bureau and former member of the Shoura, who said this would be a way to force expats to invest or spend their money in the Kingdom.
The tax would be on all money transfers by expats, with the collection being done through financial institutions in the country, and deposited in a special government account, according to a media report on Thursday.
There would also be limits on the amount that an expat can send abroad at any given time. There would also be limit on what expats can transfer abroad if they leave the country. The amounts that would be allowed abroad would be calculated in terms of the income of expats.
There would also be several measures introduced to prevent tax evasion and penalize those who fail to comply, and resolve disputes. The fines would be equal to the tax levied for the first offense and doubled for every repeat violation. Citizens found submitting fake statements of salaries, or transferring money on behalf of workers would also be fined.
The finance committee stated that measures must be taken to tax expats so that the country can gain more income. The committee’s statement comes as annual remittances reportedly rose from SR56 billion in 2005 to over SR135 billion in 2014.

[polax52]

Buswind: If you look back through this thread you will see that your question has been asked on multiple occasions. The answer is that Saudia is NOT a commuting contract. If you come here believing that it could be and have family that you need to get back home to see then you will be very disappointed. The training is a long process and during that time you'll have very little opportunity to go home and then you think there is light at the end of the tunnel then there isn't. You finish training and they schedule you to fly the next day and your into the routine of getting 5 block days free of duty. You can be scheduled to midnight on the day before and scheduled from 0100 on the day after. On a busy fleet like the A330 that will happen. Swaps may be possible but don't count on it, they will only give you one extra day anyway if they do happen.


To be positive, if you and your family chose to come and live in Saudi Arabia then this is not a bad Job.

[Soft Altitude]

Perhaps a bit off the current discussion subject, just for info what kind of routes the A330 does, what destinations and what would be the routings for the A330-300 regional ? Thank you.

[polax52]

soft Altitude:


The Answer is:
Domestic
North Africa
India
Pakistan
Istanbul
Munich
Manchester

[igig]

To be positive, if you and your family chose to come and live in Saudi Arabia then this is not a bad Job.

Polax,
Would that sentiment translate across all fleets? Even the 320?
Tks.

[alloha]

soft Altitude:


The Answer is:
Domestic
North Africa
India
Pakistan
Istanbul
Munich
Manchester
Polax Manchester is served. By the 787 (used to be 777). Munich will be served by the 320. Maybe Geneva for the summer time will go on the 330. The onlyinternational lay overs for the 330 are Tunid and all the destinations to India with the exception of BOM and DEL (777 destinations)

[polax52]

igig- I think it's pretty accurate to say that if you're not trying to commute this job, then it isn't too bad.


The problem I have is with people who take the job, knowing full well that it is not a commutable job and then make everybody else miserable with endless complaining.

[polax52]

Riyadh base is open from this month.

[mutt]

And the Sahara hotel is closing for renovations, roll on the Holiday Inn :):)

[flightfaa]

word on the block is the 330 R might not come after all,.
taken with a grain of salt but any one wanna chime if it true....

thx

[Romasik]

word on the block is the 330 R might not come after all,.
taken with a grain of salt but any one wanna chime if it true....

thx
I'll tell you more: even existing 330s are heading to one of the African companies next year. 330 pilots will be transferred to 747 classic, which Saudia is bringing back from the desert and to E170, which is not retiring any more. By seniority. Interesting times ahead:}

[flightfaa]

Ive got my popcorn ready for the show

[mutt]

So the COO is gone, replaced by an extremely interesting (semi) outsider, this should be fun :)

[argentina21]

What about overall fleet size? With all of the changes is the fleet size going to increase or decrease?

Also, what about the future orders. Are they still coming?

[Flyboy_SG]

And they want to compete with dah Big 3.

[ExDubai]

I'll tell you more: even existing 330s are heading to one of the African companies next year. 330 pilots will be transferred to 747 classic, which Saudia is bringing back from the desert and to E170, which is not retiring any more. By seniority. Interesting times ahead:}
That's a joke, isn't it ?

[Romasik]

That's a joke, isn't it ?

It depends. If someone seriously beleives that new 330s are not coming, I'm damn seriouse:}

[flightfaa]

Its a joke ExDubai,

Welcome to the Rumor Network!

[7oodaz]

Romasik, u were just about to break my heart :D i've just started my training on the A330 after flying the B738 for 6 years :D kept begging those idiots to put me on the B777 but no one ever listened :D , now if they r gonna sell the A330's and no A330 R's are coming, so im literally ****** up :D and the same applies on the RUH base, if it happens, i'll pack my backpack and go back to my Beloved B738 :D

[7oodaz]

well, guys i really need your opinions, as i mentioned in my last post, i have been flying the B738 at Egyptair for almost 6 years, now i've just started my training in SV on the A330, i kept begging them to put me on the B777 and no one ever listened, as you may know the A330 Destinations are really bad ( unlike what i used to on the B738 ) as well as they dont make good money compared to the B777 . i really hate the transfer from the B738 to the A330, i do hate the country and can't deal with people here as well . im thinking to return to Egyptair my home airline, and i want you to tell me what do you think i shall do ? the salary in SV is the double of what i get at Egyptair . would you please give me an advice ?

[ExDubai]

well, guys i really need your opinions, as i mentioned in my last post, i have been flying the B738 at Egyptair for almost 6 years, now i've just started my training in SV on the A330, i kept begging them to put me on the B777 and no one ever listened, as you may know the A330 Destinations are really bad ( unlike what i used to on the B738 ) as well as they dont make good money compared to the B777 . i really hate the transfer from the B738 to the A330, i do hate the country and can't deal with people here as well . im thinking to return to Egyptair my home airline, and i want you to tell me what do you think i shall do ? the salary in SV is the double of what i get at Egyptair . would you please give me an advice ?
At the end of the day it's your decision. From my point of view quality of life matters, if I'm not happy I would leave.

[mutt]

kept begging those idiots to put me on the B777 but no one ever listened Why are they idiots for not putting you on the B777? Did you ever stop to consider that they didn't need additional expat crews on that fleet?

[7oodaz]

that' not what i've been told in the interview, even the initial contract they sent me on my email it said FO B777/A330 , when i arrived here i discovered that its the A330, kept begging for the B777 and all i got was a clear no WHILE i had colleagues from Egyptair who were with me on the same interview day, same arrival day, and they got the B777, and for your knowledge, im the only expat on the A330 who has got no Airbus experience, all FO's from Egyptair who flown the B738 are here on the B777 ( almost 50 sth ) Except me !

[Romasik]

Romasik, u were just about to break my heart :D i've just started my training on the A330 after flying the B738 for 6 years :D kept begging those idiots to put me on the B777 but no one ever listened :D , now if they r gonna sell the A330's and no A330 R's are coming, so im literally ****** up :D and the same applies on the RUH base, if it happens, i'll pack my backpack and go back to my Beloved B738 :D
Come on! It was so obviously unrealistic that I never thought someone would take it at face value:)
You will not have good destinations on 330, but other than that it's going to be a good equipment: good money and no jet lags. If you make it through training. Good luck!
To make you feel better about company decision to put you on 330, I'll tell you that almost all of the initial 330 batch came from company 747. Despite of 10-20 years seniority. Company requirment. Period.
You still have complains with your zero ceniority and foreign 737 experience?

[guiones]

From a very wise man:

Either u like it or u leave it.

[alloha]

that' not what i've been told in the interview, even the initial contract they sent me on my email it said FO B777/A330 , when i arrived here i discovered that its the A330, kept begging for the B777 and all i got was a clear no WHILE i had colleagues from Egyptair who were with me on the same interview day, same arrival day, and they got the B777, and for your knowledge, im the only expat on the A330 who has got no Airbus experience, all FO's from Egyptair who flown the B738 are here on the B777 ( almost 50 sth ) Except me !
First of all you are acting like a crying 5 year old " o little John got an ice cream I got a candy I want an ice cream as well " Then you are lying because by any means the Egyptian FOs on the 777 are 50. 50 in total are the expat FOs in 777 coming from UK Italy Spain Egypt Pakistan France India Tunis Malaysians etc etc. furthermore about your begging , this is their company they will do whatever they want. If you don't like it pack your bags,it's only 1.30 minutes flight to CAI. Can you imagine how many Saudis with greater experience than you are stuck in the 320? Or how many of them came down from the 747? Man I do admire your arrogance and your attitude.And as you admitted the contract you signed had a 777/330,which means any of them. The contract I signed had only 777 and they have told me from day one in the assessment that's gonna be 777. So basically you got two options. A) stop crying improve your attitude and keep studying or B) pack your things and go back to your beloved 738 in Egyptair with the rumor spreading around that you failed your training in Saudia. Enjoy

[guiones]

Spot on Alloha. Well said!

[7oodaz]

well, Alloha, i confess i may have sounded kinda emotional and unprofessional and that was because my mind was totally messed up, i know its their company and they do what they wish and i have nothing but to accept it or leave, thats why i was asking your opinions guys shall i leave or not, i asked for nothing else ! and once i arrived, asked for the 777 and been told a big NO , i didnt even mention it again since then ! so its not like iam a crying 5 years old for a candy or ice cream . anyway thank you for your opinion mate, oh and yes, my first FTD session was 2 days ago so i didn't get the chance to fail any exam and/or check YET :D
anyway i resigned yesterday because just like what guiones said, " Either u like it or u leave it. "

[alloha]

well, Alloha, i confess i may have sounded kinda emotional and unprofessional and that was because my mind was totally messed up, i know its their company and they do what they wish and i have nothing but to accept it or leave, thats why i was asking your opinions guys shall i leave or not, i asked for nothing else ! and once i arrived, asked for the 777 and been told a big NO , i didnt even mention it again since then ! so its not like iam a crying 5 years old for a candy or ice cream . anyway thank you for your opinion mate, oh and yes, my first FTD session was 2 days ago so i didn't get the chance to fail any exam and/or check YET :D
anyway i resigned yesterday because just like what guiones said, " Either u like it or u leave it. "
First of all i never said you gonna fail. I said that some rumors may be spread out will say "he failed". Good thing for you going back home. Its your choise. Keep in mind though that is not very professional having a company paying you for your training and you resigning on second day of FTD. There are other Egyptians who might will to join Saudia and imagine what damage you do to them. Anyway i couldnt care less. Fly safe

[7oodaz]

Alloha, sir i did not say that you said im gonna fail i understood what u were talking about :) , and about resigning on second day of FTD, i couldn't make that decision earlier, coz it would have been too early to judge, i honestly took the decision as soon as i could . i didn't mean anything by resigning at that stage . and they shouldn't judge on Egyptians because of a single act .
thanks for the care sir :) it has been nice talking and listening to your opinion .

[Flyboy_SG]

700

That's a bad hasty decision you took. A330 is a good fleet and they have started getting good layovers now. It's a wide body at the end of the day and it is a good job. After release you would get almost double of your basic. Which is too good . Besides in 330 your training would be faster. Not everyone gets to come this far. You could have completed one contact and went back home. There nothing wrong with the people are attitude here. You know their language that's an added advantage. You haven't see the worst,that's all I would say. I'm on 777 but I would still have taken the 330 if I had no option other than that.

Any ways good luck.

[Romasik]

700

That's a bad hasty decision you took. A330 is a good fleet and they have started getting good layovers now. It's a wide body at the end of the day and it is a good job. After release you would get almost double of your basic. Which is too good . Besides in 330 your training would be faster. Not everyone gets to come this far. You could have completed one contact and went back home. There nothing wrong with the people are attitude here. You know their language that's an added advantage. You haven't see the worst,that's all I would say. I'm on 777 but I would still have taken the 330 if I had no option other than that.

Any ways good luck.
Eeeee... Could you please elaborate on good 330 layovers :rolleyes:
(Apart of few high season GVAs and MUCs in IP and training lines)

[pilot20002000]

Eeeee... Could you please elaborate on good 330 layovers :rolleyes:
(Apart of few high season GVAs and MUCs in IP and training lines)
Istanbul:}

[one mile]

hey ppruners,

is SAUDIA still recruiting on wide body?

[alloha]

hey ppruners,

is SAUDIA still recruiting on wide body?
Certainly is not recruiting FO's , I think only 320 captains

[tenela]

Is Nesma still recruiting pilots and which routes are they operating?

[Chirpy Pilot]

Are they keeping the Embraer or recruiting onto it?

[alloha]

Saudia as of yesterday starts again hiring FO's for 777,330 and 747 !!!! Rated and non type rated

[argentina21]

What are the details?

[one mile]

Hello everyone,

How do we reaply, there is no link on the career page. I updated my infos but than I dont know where I can send another application gor FO 777.
Any one can help please

[argentina21]

I checked with two different people in pilot recruitment (one highly placed) and was told that they are not recruiting widebody FOs at this time.

[Hakeem]

Hello,
Log in to your account update your details. Then go to available position in there you can find the link to reapply for the same position. Hope it helps.


Hello everyone,

How do we reaply, there is no link on the career page. I updated my infos but than I dont know where I can send another application gor FO 777.
Any one can help please

[one mile]

Hi Hakeem,

Thanks a lot I will do that!

cheers

[Hakeem]

Cheers buddy.


Hi Hakeem,

Thanks a lot I will do that!

cheers

[dalmus]

Hi to all captains, i just wonder if anyone can provide a bit info about the condition at the company. I know this is a great company; but as an asian with the a320 hours just met their requirement, I would like to know if any chance I could survive in the company? I really want to move onto something bigger, company or fleet..thx

[alloha]

Hi to all captains, i just wonder if anyone can provide a bit info about the condition at the company. I know this is a great company; but as an asian with the a320 hours just met their requirement, I would like to know if any chance I could survive in the company? I really want to move onto something bigger, company or fleet..thx
Forget about something bigger in terms of airplane.320 is the only option the company will offer you. It means endless domestic flights with 3-4 day trips with 14-20 hours lay over in RUH DMM MED. some international round trips around the Kingdom and rarely some European Lay overs ( FCO MXP MUC GVA FRA). Do I have to mention that all of them are very popular with local guys ( and roster is based on Seniority,so you get the idea) plus the fact that FRA is mainly assigned to Instructor Pilots as along with LHR are considered the most challenging airports of the network ����������. Training is very demanding even for a type rated pilot. If eventually you make it to the line then you will fly to the limits. Salary is second to none in the business. Most probably new joiners are based in RUH and that's not bad at all because the situation about the housing in Jeddah is not good at all

[igig]

Forget about something bigger in terms of airplane.320 is the only option the company will offer you. It means endless domestic flights with 3-4 day trips with 14-20 hours lay over in RUH DMM MED. some international round trips around the Kingdom and rarely some European Lay overs ( FCO MXP MUC GVA FRA). Do I have to mention that all of them are very popular with local guys ( and roster is based on Seniority,so you get the idea) plus the fact that FRA is mainly assigned to Instructor Pilots as along with LHR are considered the most challenging airports of the network ����������. Training is very demanding even for a type rated pilot. If eventually you make it to the line then you will fly to the limits. Salary is second to none in the business. Most probably new joiners are based in RUH and that's not bad at all because the situation about the housing in Jeddah is not good at all

Alloha.
Thanks for the info. Can you answer a question? From the careers page, it appears that substitution of hours, ie. A320 time in order to move into a higher category in the wide body group is no longer permitted. Only hours substitution from a higher category to a lower category , ie. D to B is allowed. Is this a recent change?
Thanks

[Top gun pilot 797]

Hello all,
Was seriously considering SV as a career for me and some of my mates.
Very reliably learnt that the attrition / failure rate only during training is now slightly below 50%...!
This is both for typed and non typed pilots and includes FO's and Skippers of all fleets.
I've been seriously warned that once here in saudia NEVER unpack your bags completely. Cause you never know when it's time to go back.
Shocking as this might seem, it's horribly true.
Doesn't matter how good you are. How much experience you have. On type or not.
It simply the saudia way or the highway.
I don't mind that too much. But I believe the 'saudia' way is neither the Boeing way nor Airbus way...!! It's simply the 'SAUDIA' way.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against change. But, to pass a rule directly contradicting all that you have learnt in the past AND then implementing it with an iron hand can sometimes spell disaster in training.
And then I believe the instructors each have their own unique 'signature' style !

And then there's the market factor. When they have an excess of FOs in the pipeline the FOs start to 'fail'. When their 744 skippers are due for a conversion to the 777 the new hire skippers start to magically underperform and fail !!

So that's that folks. I'm gonna think long and think hard. Very very very hard for this one.

Cheerio

[alloha]

Hello all,
Was seriously considering SV as a career for me and some of my mates.
Very reliably learnt that the attrition / failure rate only during training is now slightly below 50%...!
This is both for typed and non typed pilots and includes FO's and Skippers of all fleets.
I've been seriously warned that once here in saudia NEVER unpack your bags completely. Cause you never know when it's time to go back.
Shocking as this might seem, it's horribly true.
Doesn't matter how good you are. How much experience you have. On type or not.
It simply the saudia way or the highway.
I don't mind that too much. But I believe the 'saudia' way is neither the Boeing way nor Airbus way...!! It's simply the 'SAUDIA' way.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against change. But, to pass a rule directly contradicting all that you have learnt in the past AND then implementing it with an iron hand can sometimes spell disaster in training.
And then I believe the instructors each have their own unique 'signature' style !

And then there's the market factor. When they have an excess of FOs in the pipeline the FOs start to 'fail'. When their 744 skippers are due for a conversion to the 777 the new hire skippers start to magically underperform and fail !!

So that's that folks. I'm gonna think long and think hard. Very very very hard for this one.

Cheerio
thats interesting , i never thought that pprune could replace a therapist

[King on a Wing]

heard some horror stories with regards to training at SV.most of them turn out to be spot on.two of my buddies opted out in the 3rd and fourth month of training. Skippers both

[CI54]

Hello all,
Was seriously considering SV as a career for me and some of my mates.
Very reliably learnt that the attrition / failure rate only during training is now slightly below 50%...!
This is both for typed and non typed pilots and includes FO's and Skippers of all fleets.
I've been seriously warned that once here in saudia NEVER unpack your bags completely. Cause you never know when it's time to go back.
Shocking as this might seem, it's horribly true.
Doesn't matter how good you are. How much experience you have. On type or not.
It simply the saudia way or the highway.
I don't mind that too much. But I believe the 'saudia' way is neither the Boeing way nor Airbus way...!! It's simply the 'SAUDIA' way.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against change. But, to pass a rule directly contradicting all that you have learnt in the past AND then implementing it with an iron hand can sometimes spell disaster in training.
And then I believe the instructors each have their own unique 'signature' style !

And then there's the market factor. When they have an excess of FOs in the pipeline the FOs start to 'fail'. When their 744 skippers are due for a conversion to the 777 the new hire skippers start to magically underperform and fail !!

So that's that folks. I'm gonna think long and think hard. Very very very hard for this one.

Cheerio

To be honest, if you're this unhappy before you're even here, just stay where you are or find another place...

[Top gun pilot 797]

CI54,
My humble and genuine question to you then is, 'are things different then'.
Begs a reply

[Romasik]

Just do it the way they want. It's a part of the job description. And it,s not unsafe at all. Instructor just prepares you to the checkride and then you are on your own. It's not a big deal for a professional pilot who is aware that the are other ways to operate the same plane. BTW, the differences are not really significant. Basically standard A or B procedures.

[alloha]

heard some horror stories with regards to training at SV.most of them turn out to be spot on.two of my buddies opted out in the 3rd and fourth month of training. Skippers both
If your buddies had the wrong attitude and behavior problems then it's not surprising that they got axed. If they failed to realize how the things work in SV again it's their fault. So simple as that

[CI54]

CI54,
My humble and genuine question to you then is, 'are things different then'.
Begs a reply

To which my reply is, it depends.. Some have stayed three days, some have stayed over 20 years. Not that those who have been here over 20 years are entirely happy. The option is yours...

[igig]

Where/why the need for the big recruitment at Saudia? Is it still growth or attrition?
If attrition, why? I have read the entire thread and read the reference to failure rates exceeding 50%. Is that it or is there also significant attrition due contracts not being renewed along with retirements?

Do new hires receive full pay during training or is training pay reduced? Any updates on RUH base for new hires?

[atila_101]

Igig,

During training you will receive basic salary, which will depend on aircraft category and position. Not sure if Riyadh base is forced on new hires.
Attrition rate during training is mostly due to people failing or leaving due to various reasons, housing (or lack of it) being number one..... Saudia on 99,99 %of cases renew the contract, I cannot remember any case where they do not renew the contract after the 3 years.

[mutt]

I cannot remember any case where they do not renew the contract after the 3 years. I can :):) at least 3....

[Top gun pilot 797]

Annnnnnd they advertise again....!!
For Skippers only this time.
I can bet my months salary they won't get more than ten percent of what they need. Simply to run their fleet on a routine basis.
The training needs a serious re-vamping and re-strategizing.

Whether it happens or not, is another story completely !!

[SkullFlyer]

well, Alloha, i confess i may have sounded kinda emotional and unprofessional and that was because my mind was totally messed up, i know its their company and they do what they wish and i have nothing but to accept it or leave, thats why i was asking your opinions guys shall i leave or not, i asked for nothing else ! and once i arrived, asked for the 777 and been told a big NO , i didnt even mention it again since then ! so its not like iam a crying 5 years old for a candy or ice cream . anyway thank you for your opinion mate, oh and yes, my first FTD session was 2 days ago so i didn't get the chance to fail any exam and/or check YET :D
anyway i resigned yesterday because just like what guiones said, " Either u like it or u leave it. "

Man, I understand you and the agony you probably was feeling when you wrote all this. It was an outburst, and those guys did not get it.
Always look for your happiness, don't care to what people will think.
You took a brave and hard decision to leave. I hope you're happier now !
Good luck and happy landings.

[SkullFlyer]

Is it possible to live abroad of SA (i.e. Barhein) when flying for Saudia ?

[alloha]

Is it possible to live abroad of SA (i.e. Barhein) when flying for Saudia ?
There is a higher possibility of a 3 year old baby to fly a 777

[SkullFlyer]

There is a higher possibility of a 3 year old baby to fly a 777

Considering all your answers above, either you trying to be funny or you must be frustated.
Anyway, I get it. It is not allowed to live abroad.
Thanks !

[polax52]

Skullflyer- These commuting questions come up all of the time. Either through the thread or via PM. Everybody on here working for Saudia have made it very clear and very honestly that this is in no way a commuting contract. You do get a block of 5 days off per month but rarely does that extend beyond 5 days.

Sadly people come to Saudia having ignored all the information and EXPECTING to be able to commute. They spend their time complaining and making people who are very happy working for Saudia miserable.

The other point is that you get the type of aircraft which they give you. If that's going to be a hardship then don't come. In all likelihood over the next few years the vast majority of experienced widebody captains will be put on the A330.

Another point; it is still only about 50% who start that are still with the company after one year. I'm not sure of the percentages failing or just chosing to leave.

[mutt]

I'm not sure of the percentages failing or just chosing to leave. The last 3 Americans that i now who left had all failed. (GW isn't included in this :))

Of the other nationalities, you have to ask how many are on leave from their national airlines and can walk back into their old jobs.

[alloha]

Considering all your answers above, either you trying to be funny or you must be frustated.
Anyway, I get it. It is not allowed to live abroad.
Thanks !
Frustrated? Yes maybe,but not with SV . The company has kept all its promises. Salary on time, my 5 days off per month (sometimes 6) , a house in Saudia city.but Frustrated with people who have not realized what this company is all about ,yes maybe I am. And it's not difficult to get the point. All the people who work ,or have worked for SV, have posted here several times that the contract is not for commuters. And yes ,sometimes I try to be funny. I use humor as a self defense mechanism to the stupidity of some comments

[SkullFlyer]

Skullflyer- These commuting questions come up all of the time. Either through the thread or via PM. Everybody on here working for Saudia have made it very clear and very honestly that this is in no way a commuting contract. You do get a block of 5 days off per month but rarely does that extend beyond 5 days.

Sadly people come to Saudia having ignored all the information and EXPECTING to be able to commute. They spend their time complaining and making people who are very happy working for Saudia miserable.



The other point is that you get the type of aircraft which they give you. If that's going to be a hardship then don't come. In all likelihood over the next few years the vast majority of experienced widebody captains will be put on the A330.

Another point; it is still only about 50% who start that are still with the company after one year. I'm not sure of the percentages failing or just chosing to leave.

Thanks, Polax !!! Well understood now.
Happy landings !

[SkullFlyer]

Frustrated? Yes maybe,but not with SV . The company has kept all its promises. Salary on time, my 5 days off per month (sometimes 6) , a house in Saudia city.but Frustrated with people who have not realized what this company is all about ,yes maybe I am. And it's not difficult to get the point. All the people who work ,or have worked for SV, have posted here several times that the contract is not for commuters. And yes ,sometimes I try to be funny. I use humor as a self defense mechanism to the stupidity of some comments

Aloha ! Peace ! ✌

[cessna95]

What is happening with the embraer fleet. It seems that they are keeping them for now.

Any news if recruiting will start before the year ends??

[mutt]

If you want a commuting contract, try Privatair, they are operating an A319 for Saudia under the brand Al-Bayraq.

They are offering 20/10, but that extra 4-5 days off will cost you half the salary of a normal A320 Captain.

[fourgolds]

Does anyone know if a new hire 777 Captain will be hired to Jeddah or is there the possibility of Riyadh ? Also can they change equipment type on arrival ? eg I am 777 current , can they put mr on 787 or 330 ?

Can the domicile change at any moment ? Reason is that I would like to bring the family . Anyone there with kids in international schools kind enough to pm me about what its really like for family .

Also would a family of 4 be based be given a villa in Saudi City , or where ? Whats the accomodation like in both Jeddah and Riyadh ?

Do you think that Saudisation will eventually mean all expats will be replaced as soon as they can ?

Appreciate any feedback . Pm if you prefer . Thanks very much.

[mutt]

You would be very foolish to accept the A330 if you were already 777 rated.

At least one if not three new A330 REGIONALS will be delivered to Jeddah today.

[fourgolds]

[QUOTE=mutt;9477392]You would be very foolish to accept the A330 if you were already 777 rated.

Not saying I would accept it at all . The question was what if you arrrive and they put you on another type ?
Is it stipulated pre employment what type you are on ? Can they summarliy change this to fit their requirements ?
Current B777 type is my application . Tks

[alloha]

[QUOTE=mutt;9477392]You would be very foolish to accept the A330 if you were already 777 rated.

Not saying I would accept it at all . The question was what if you arrrive and they put you on another type ?
Is it stipulated pre employment what type you are on ? Can they summarliy change this to fit their requirements ?
Current B777 type is my application . Tks
Normally they will not. I don't know anyone who had this kind of luck. In fact I know a couple of guys who came here for the 330 and they were asked if they want to join the 777

[mutt]

JEDDAH: Saudi Arabian Airlines (Saudia) is optimistic about reaching its goal of 200 aircraft by the year 2020 and aims to have 100 percent Saudi pilots, Saleh bin Nasser Al-Jasser, director general of the airline, said Friday.

Addressing a press conference upon his return to Jeddah after taking the delivery of the new Airbus A330 in France, he said Saudia is expected to receive 25 such aircraft within a few months.
The aircraft is the first of the A330-300 Regional aircraft ordered at the 2015 Paris Airshow and joins Saudia’s existing Airbus fleet.
Elaborating on the pilots issue, which was highlighted by Arab News, Al-Jasser said: “Saudia is training about 3,000 Saudi pilots. They have been sent abroad for the best education and to fulfill the future demand for pilots and copilots.”

Not sure if anyone has told him that its impossible to train 700 line pilots a year :)

[ExDubai]

At least it is a clear message....

[ChocksOn]

Hi

I have a question about Engineers/Mechanics at Saudia!
Just wondering if they still hire overseas/expat mechanics in the KSA?

Thanks

[polax52]

Mutt- The problem is, it doesn't depend on airline needs when it comes to the final termination of expat Pilots. The decision will be made by the government and Royal decree will require Saudiization of the Airline industry at a certain date. It happened in the mobile phone industry last year. 6 months notice was given.

Maybe Saudia should promote jobs fairs now in Jeddah amongst other middle eastern and Chinese airlines.

[ExDubai]

Mutt- The problem is, it doesn't depend on airline needs when it comes to the final termination of expat Pilots. The decision will be made by the government and Royal decree will require Saudiization of the Airline industry at a certain date. It happened in the mobile phone industry last year. 6 months notice was given.

Maybe Saudia should promote jobs fairs now in Jeddah amongst other middle eastern and Chinese airlines.
EK would love it ;)

[metro301]

Polax52,

There is a tad bit of a difference between a job that requires a few weeks of schooling and an aircraft Captain. With the current experience rules it takes 10-12 years for a new hire to become a Capt at SVA.

Do you really think that with expansion and shortages as high as they are, the Royal Court will disable the entire country by terminating all the Expat pilots?

What will be next? Saudization by decree of the medical field?

Neither will happen in the next 10 years.

Just for reference purposes.... 50% of the A320 Capts are Expats.

[mutt]

Metro301, they actually called for full Saudiization of the FO's in the late 90's in response to a complaint from CPL holders, they succeeded in reducing the number down to 10, 9 of these were on the 747 Classic.

Right now I believe that the only fleets with expat FO's are the 330 and 777, so how long will it realistically take to replace them?

Captains are a different story, with about 50 upgrades a year, they are barely covering retirements let alone fleet expansion.

[polax52]

I am not saying either way what will or won't happen but Saudiization is now a very big part of the psychology and they desperately want to make it happen.

Metro301- 10 years sounds like the realistic timescale to me, with no new hires from 2020.

[King on a Wing]

Mutt,
Any chance of a link to the above news item by any chance.
Would be nice to actually see what was said by the DG of Saudia.
Thanks

[ange1393]

Hello! I know it's a little off-topic since most of you guys here are pilots. But just in case, anyone knows where to apply for Saudia Airlines Cabin Crew here in Dubai? Or do they just process applications in Jeddah? I would appreciate your reply, please. Thank you!

[polax52]

I just googled it "arab news saudi pilots"

it's the first thing that came up.

[mutt]

Saudia to hire 100% Saudi pilots by 2020 | Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/node/972531/saudi-arabia)....

[777boyindubai]

It's called the Magic Kingdom for a reason...

[metro301]

Polax,

I admit in 10 years it is possible to replace us all, barring further expansion and with good luck on their part. Hiring of expat FO's in large numbers is only a recent phenomenon. There has been a handful here and there over the past decade, with a dramatic increase over the last year or so. This recent FO hiring was met with a lot of resistance from local pilots.

100% local FO hiring in large numbers, no further AC expansion orders, 10-12 years is realistic.

Mutt,

They would definitely need to streamline the training process. Please correct me if I am wrong, but after the Saudization call in the 90's, there was zero hiring until 2004 for both Capt and Fo?

Bottomline... If I was an expat pilot at SVA..... I would be focusing on a 10 year timeline. Anything sooner is unlikely. I hear many expats talking as though this is going to happen tomorrow. My only point is that it will take time. I am actually rooting for the Saudis. I hope it works for them.

[polax52]

10 years is an assumption. The government can call time on expat pilots at any point. We presume that they will not until it's healthy for their Airline to do so.

All of this expat recruitment over the last 3 or 4 years has upset a lot of people, now there is a lot of politics involved.

[metro301]

I feel bad for the senior narrowbody Fo's that I fly with. People with the same experience or even less are being hired direct into the widebody right seat holding these fellows back. Some have 6-7 years seniority. I have no sympathy for the 1-2 year guys crying about it, but the more senior ones, are a real decent lot with good skills.

[alloha]

I feel bad for the senior narrowbody Fo's that I fly with. People with the same experience or even less are being hired direct into the widebody right seat holding these fellows back. Some have 6-7 years seniority. I have no sympathy for the 1-2 year guys crying about it, but the more senior ones, are a real decent lot with good skills.
Metro the WB was the cheese to attract expat FO's. I can't imagine anyone would join as an FO in the 320 no matter how much the salary would be and with zero upgrade possibilities On top of that some people in the management are quite happy with the expat solution. We don't complain,we don't call it sick or fatigue on Friday morning,we don't want vacation every year in August or during Hadj and we cost less than the locals. And these are not my words ,but the words of an ex top management guy who recently came back in line.
Not to mention that the training the local FO's are going through is a joke compared to the training of the expats .
My 2 cents

[Flyboy_SG]

Well with their current training program and pace, They cannot make it in ten years also. 20 777 captains retiring this month. The whole fleet transfer concept of upgrade training is going to take plenty of time. Plus the Gaca is really having a hold on the airline and not the other way around. It's just a press statement. At the most they can eliminate all the FOs but not captains for sure. A 777 FO will have to spend considerable time in training in 320 left seat then again 777 left seat to be a 777 captain. It'snt like EK or QR. Eventually they will achieve it but it's going to take a very long time. But for now they done seem to be prepared for the expansion. It's a chaos.


@Skull: Locals do it. They have homes in IST,DXB,BAH etc. As an expat it'll be difficult to obtain resident permit. Even if you do it'll be harder to commute. But It can be done.

[Semaphore Sam]

I arrived in JED in June 1978; the first day, our first meeting, we were told that by June 1980 the whole expat group (pilots, f/o's, flight engineers (remember?), would all be gone, due to Saudiization. I left 27 yrs later; don't hold yer breath! Sam

[polax52]

The reality is that we don't know when the final decision to Saudiize the Airline industry will occur. We do know that the determination is there.

I agree with the wishful thinking posts but in the end it will be all about domestic politics.

[Flyboy_SG]

25 more aircrafts coming by this year end ! From a senior management Pilot.

I'm just curious about the whole scenario.

[tcas123]

Can anyone provide me with current Capt salay in SV for a friend whose interested . And if they still using seniority system for rostering bidding .
Thx

[Flyboy_SG]

About 9000 USD basic

[777boyindubai]

604260 Rupees......

[iqama777]

Airline director has told all managers to stop all overtime. The only salary will be Basic salary only, plus the per diems.


Medical insurance has been cancelled. only local insurance at local hospitals. the locals don't even trust the doctors there.


Saudi Airlines to be 100% Saudi pilots by 2020. all expats will be gone by then. Saudia to hire 100% Saudi pilots by 2020 | Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/node/972531/saudi-arabia)


12 hour flights these people cause lung and respiratory problems from their constant smoking.


all told, there is no reason to waster time here.

[Romasik]

About 9000 USD basic
That's it? Nothing more then basic?:)

[Guam360]

wide body or narrow body?

[Flyboy_SG]

why should we reveal all the secrets Romasik? ;)
Narrow body.

[Flyboy_SG]

Heard 20 captains retired in AUG. They are running short of 777 captains. Almost the whole year....!

[mutt]

Heard 20 captains retired in AUG If you are talking about Saudi's retiring, then it will only happen in Hegira month 1 and 7, so seeing a large number in either of these months is expected.

How many of them returned as contractors on a higher salary?

[Flyboy_SG]

No Idea....Guessing those are the ones who touched 65 gregorian. but its a big mess !

[polax52]

I think a lot of Expat Captains are beginning to complete their 3 year contracts. Those that wish to do 1 contract will leave. 3 years ago Saudia were probably hiring 10 successful expats per month, at a total guess maybe 50% of those will leave on contract completion.

[igig]

Are any of the A320 on order the NEO?

[RoyHudd]

What is the reason for Saudiization of this airline?

Is anyone able to provide a coherent answer to this question? From a Saudi or a non-Saudi, a logical answer would be good to see.

From an SV manager, I would dearly love to hear a truthful response. So reply....

[Cliff Secord]

Quick question. This block of 5 days that keeps getting mentioned. I take it you actually have more off a month in total? 1-2 days off between trips? I don't know the GACA regs but take it it's not 25 days of work with pure min rest between and one set of 5 days off?

[polax52]

RoyHudd: I am not sure that I can give you the truthful answer which you want. If you google Saudiization then you will probably find a lot of information. I understand that Saudiization is a legal process initiated in around 2005 to slowly replace the approximately 7,000,000 expatriate workers with Saudi workers. There have been some industries where the government have intervened to insure that this process has happened quickly for example the mobile phone industry last year, where the government gave companies six months to replace all expat workers.

The management of Saudia have clearly stated that their intention is to remove all foreign Pilots and replace them with Saudi Pilots by 2020. I do understand from within the head office that a target of 6-8 years is actually what they believe.

Cliff Secord: Your presumption is of course correct. You get one block of 5 and then ones and twos. I think the minimum is nine.

[mutt]

50% of the saudi population is under the age of 25, the concept of saudiization is to provide jobs for them.

[ExDubai]

50% of the saudi population is under the age of 25, the concept of saudiization is to provide jobs for them.
And the unemployment rate in this group is above 25%. So "Saudiization" does make sense. If this is the case for the airline business is another question.

[mutt]

Easiest way to achieve Saudiization of the pilot workforce would be to cancel the 5 days off in a row and cancel overtime :):)

[Rule3]

Creating the jobs is all well and good. Getting the Saudis to actually do the work is a completely different issue.

I remember a few years back an edict that all taxis would be driven by Saudis. I think it had a lead in of 3 months. Never happened.

[igig]

The Arab News article quotes the Director General that there are 3000 Saudi trainee pilots abroad. If that is accurate then would 2020 not be realistic?

[North_Bedouin]

Did they ever mention saudization of cabin crew? :suspect:

[polax52]

I think the expat cabin crew are safe.

Igig: 2020 is possibly realistic if Saudi Arabia operated an EASA style operation but in fact the Saudi system is experience based and follows the FAA model. The Saudia management may have targets but currently don't have the power to force significant change on GACA. The flow of cadets in to Saudia will be relatively slow especially compared to companies in Europe like Easyjet or Ryanair, they will always want to keep average experience levels comparable with equivalent part 121 FAA Airlines. So of course you have vested interests in Saudi Arabia; GACA being one, Saudi management being another (and even differing factions within), the government a third, and they all have their power and priority which often conflicts.

No question though Saudiization is important to them and it will come at some point, especially if there is a period of stagnation in growth of the airline.

[ExDubai]

I think the expat cabin crew are safe.

For sure, try to imagine on of those male desert roses serving tea and coffee :cool:

[alloha]

Quick question. This block of 5 days that keeps getting mentioned. I take it you actually have more off a month in total? 1-2 days off between trips? I don't know the GACA regs but take it it's not 25 days of work with pure min rest between and one set of 5 days off?
for the 777 sometimes its more than 5 (this month i got six) but yes you dont fly with minimum rest.You get 2 D.O in a row, sometimes 3,sometimes 36h .With the full implementation (in block hours per 28 days) of 117 from September they should be realy carefull.No more waivers either from the management or from GACA.An average line on the 777 has 11-13 days off

[alloha]

Nope no NEO ,only CEO

[Flyboy_SG]

Plenty of changes happening in the airline. They really have to ramp up the training. With 6-12 months of transition or initial training, Saudiization seems like a mirage.

[Flyboy_SG]

For sure, try to imagine on of those male desert roses serving tea and coffee :cool:
Buhahahah....if they decide to unpark themselves from the Business/First class seats.

[King on a Wing]

Words fail me !
Batch of 8 FO's and 8 Captains.
Last month of training, and my mate tells me as of yesterday only ONE Captain left and 3 FO's struggling.
That's a 25% survival rate now
:uhoh: :uhoh: :(

[igig]

Words fail me !
Batch of 8 FO's and 8 Captains.
Last month of training, and my mate tells me as of yesterday only ONE Captain left and 3 FO's struggling.
That's a 25% survival rate now
:uhoh: :uhoh: :(

What fleet?

[King on a Wing]

I believe it's on all fleets now.
About 25-50% of the candidates joining are still in the country by the end of the training...!
Either terminated or left of their own will or ( in a couple of cases ) completed training AND THEN left for home. Simply didn't like it.
Either way, I think it's insane.
Huge failure/departure rate.

[Flyboy_SG]

What stage of training king ?

Yes, Training is ridiculous now. They hired too many pilots and don't know what to do with them. The training department absolutely has no clue as to which training should get priority. No sim slots, No IPs and so on. They never hired so many pilots in the past it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong.
New IPs wait for months together for GACA observation, then few more months for observation flights by current IPs. Looks like even a IP training takes 6-12 months.

MAS pilots have spoilt the whole equation.


Almost all first officers in my batch are frustrated. With the slow training, endless Second officer flights, non stop orals, unnecessary paper work etc and the system as such.
What else can you expect ?! Attrition obviously! But cases of termination are very rare. They give 3 chances unless someone has a serious attitude problem.

Only the Captain training is on right pace. That too not upto the industry standards.

[mutt]

That too not upto the industry standards. But when people show up who cant fly a VOR approach in V/S, what do you expect?

[Flyboy_SG]

Is it ? But that doesn't justify a 12 month training for someone who can fly.

[mutt]

Saudi Gazette report

RIYADH — Minister of Transportation Sulaiman Al-Hamdan announced the addition of 63 new aircraft to Saudi Arabian Airlines’ existing fleet. Al-Hamdan made the announcement on the Kingdom’s National Day.

“The new airplanes will be used for passenger transport. The ministry has a strategic plan to expand its services and improve the quality of these services.

The airplanes will be used on national and international routes. The ministry has also contracted with several partners through the General Authority of Civil Aviation to expand and grow in order to achieve its goals under its strategic plan,” said the source.

Saudia’s Director General Saleh Al-Jasser said the new agreements of the General Authority of Civil Aviation enlisted the ownership of 63 new airplanes.

“We have obtained 15 Boeing 777-300ER, 13 Boeing 787 Dreamliner and 35 Airbus New Generation A320/A321-neo planes.

The airlines signed an agreement last year with Airbus to purchase 50 A330 regional and A320 aircraft.

The agreement was signed last year in Paris in the presence of Deputy Crown Prince and Minister of Defense Muhammad Bin Salman,” said Al-Jasser.

He said the airline received the airplanes last month.

“The airline signed agreements this year and the year before for the purchase of a total of 113 new airplanes with advanced technological features.

The airline will receive four airplanes of model B787-9 in 2017,” said Al-Jasser.

Who is going to FLY THEM?

[rdr]

Mutt, I admire your doggedness. Stay well.

[argentina21]

Apparently these orders represent the filling out of 200 aircraft by 2020.

But, will any of them end up at flyadeal?

Aviation Tribune provides a little more clarity:

Saudi Arabian Airlines will acquire 63 aircraft as part of a fleet expansion and modernization program.

His Excellency the Minister of Transport, Chairman of the Board of General Authority of Civil Aviation and Chairman of the Board of Saudi Arabian Airlines, Mr. Sulaiman Alhamdan announced the approval by Saudia’s Board of Directors of Saudia’s fleet plan.

Alhamdan further stated:

“It is my pleasure to announce that the national carrier has acquired 63 new aircraft as part of its fleet expansion and modernization plan reflecting the strength of our national economy.”

He stressed that this new acquisition will support the national carrier’s operating plans for domestic and international markets and its ambitious transformation program that was approved and supported by the Board as many of its initiatives and the objectives of its strategic plan are being carried out.

Saudia’s Director General Engineer Saleh Aljasser elaborated that this new acquisition includes 15 Boeing 777-300ER’s, 13 Boeing 787’s and 35 Airbus A320/A321neo.

These aircraft are in addition to the 50 Airbus aircraft (A330 Regional and A320) that Saudia signed for last year in Paris.

He further added:

“Saudia within two years has signed agreements to acquire 113 aircraft, in line with its fleet renewal and expansion initiative which is part of the Transformation Program that was launched last year to double in seven years what has been achieved in 70 years, and includes several other initiatives starting with investment in our people, upgrade operational efficiency and effectiveness, focus on total customer experience, optimize the network and creating distinctive products for our guests. Several of the initiatives have already been executed and some are in the process so that by 2020 we will reach our targets of a fleet of 200 aircraft, 1000 daily flights and 45 million annual passengers.”

Next year will witness the delivery of thirty aircraft, the highest number in the history of the airline, 22 of which are wide-body aircraft (777-300ER, 787-9 and A330R), while within the last 4 months of this year 2016 Saudia is receiving 25 aircraft, 21 of which are wide-body in addition to the four aircraft it received earlier this year bringing the total deliveries in 2016 to 29 aircraft.

He further added that as part of the fleet renewal, several aircraft will be taken out of service according to a phase-out plan that takes in consideration the delivery of new aircraft.

Four 747-400 aircraft have been phased-out this year, and the phase-out of the Embraer 170 fleet of 15 aircraft is ongoing and will be completed by the end of this year.

Additionally, Saudia will phase-out five units from its Boeing 777-200 fleet of 23 aircraft, with the remaining 18 scheduled to be phased-out before the end of 2017.

The airline’s early generation of A320 aircraft will be phased-out over the next two years.

Mr. Aljasser emphasized that these agreements to acquire new aircraft was being accompanied by other initiatives to train and prepare its national manpower to operate and maintain this fleet. This is reflected in the agreement Saudia signed with the Ministry of Education for 5000 scholarships to send Saudi students to study abroad aviation sciences and maintenance.


Sure sounds like a lot of aircraft to crew within a short amount of tme.

[Flyboy_SG]

Ha ! I wish I could believe it. Let's see.

[igig]

Apparently these orders represent the filling out of 200 aircraft by 2020.

But, will any of them end up at flyadeal?

Aviation Tribune provides a little more clarity:



Sure sounds like a lot of aircraft to crew within a short amount of tme.

So, not including the A330, and taking into account the fleet reductions, a net increase of 21 fins? Is that math correct?

[polax52]

It seems that they are failing large numbers on 777 courses at the moment. Too many to be a natural rate.

[jet747]

Gentlemen,

I'm having trouble to get access to my profile on the recruitment website in order to complete my application. Did try to reset the password still not working.
What is the phone number to call or the email address to resolve the issue ?

Your help is appreciated

[mutt]

SV 1110 0900 JED DMM 1110
SV 1109 1210 DMM JED 1425
SV 1768 1535 JED GIZ 1700
SV 1777 1800 GIZ JED 1925

A330 Regional.... this looks like a lot of fun :(

[Flyboy_SG]

Hope they take over our crappy flights soon....

[Chocks Away]

Relax, they will.
There'll be more than enough flying if you have a look at the Winter schedule... many increases in rotations, which only means shorter layovers. :sad:
Pity they're trying to grow with some poor fleet decisions (B787 "regionals" and A33R with no ETOPS etc etc) and so many people not passing or even showing up now.
Happy Landings:ok:

[King on a Wing]

Heard some upper Managment shift taking place.
Major shuffle.
Better or Worse?

[Romasik]

Hope they take over our crappy flights soon....
Thanks....

[igig]

Will the Royal decree affect Saudia (specifically the expat pilot group) with respect to public sector cutbacks, cancelling wage increases, bonus payments, overtime, annual leave, etc.?

[alloha]

Relax, they will.
There'll be more than enough flying if you have a look at the Winter schedule... many increases in rotations, which only means shorter layovers. :sad:
Pity they're trying to grow with some poor fleet decisions (B787 "regionals" and A33R with no ETOPS etc etc) and so many people not passing or even showing up now.
Happy Landings:ok:
the A330s were never an option for LR Flights Hence they were ordered without crew rest facilities. On the other hand the problem with the 787 (even if they were the ULRS )is the limited cargo capabilities.On top of that is a very good money maker for periods of low load factors and Saudia's European network has this kind of problems for long periods during the year. And thats the plan.All the European destinations to be flown by the 787 (except London)

[Chocks Away]

Yes I'm aware of the "reasoning" behind the A33R Alloha, in that it gave them immediate access to wide body Airbuses (huge queue for them) to put on the local and regional routes, in replacement of older B772's but that's why no one else has bought them... you don't spend big $$ on buying a wide body aircraft limiting yourself to its future useage/routes and the A330 has proven itself as a great Long distance truck.
The 787 "regionals"...well that was a mistake and people lost their jobs over that.
The smart thing to do is keep the 777-268's, D-check, repaint & refit the interiors to the new product & you've got them for another 10-15 years, they owe you nothing and it's keeping more wide body seats in their market. EK crew call it the "John Deere" for a good reason and given the large amount of used B777's on the market right now your going to get zip for them anyway.
Anyway, I've got no wasta here so why bother caring.
"Just keep Swimming, just keep Swimming..." :-)

[polax52]

I want to put out a warning to guys currently planning to come to Saudia. If you look at my previous posts, they have been fair and information based. I am not writing this for any interest other than it is currently the fact on the ground. I have never seen anything like it.

I think a lot of people took great exception to 200 Malaysian pilots being employed without screening. The backlash is huge and includes most instructors and GACA themselves. It was always difficult going through training as a foreign Pilot with Saudia but that was when they wanted you to pass. Now it's something else, they have ramped up the pressure so that when you brake, you're on a slippery slope.

I recommend to prospective Saudia guys to wait until this period is over.

[igig]

I want to put out a warning to guys currently planning to come to Saudia. If you look at my previous posts, they have been fair and information based. I am not writing this for any interest other than it is currently the fact on the ground. I have never seen anything like it.

I think a lot of people took great exception to 200 Malaysian pilots being employed without screening. The backlash is huge and includes most instructors and GACA themselves. It was always difficult going through training as a foreign Pilot with Saudia but that was when they wanted you to pass. Now it's something else, they have ramped up the pressure so that when you brake, you're on a slippery slope.

I recommend to prospective Saudia guys to wait until this period is over.
polax52

Would you have any guess as to how long for this cycle to run its course.

[Flyboy_SG]

@Igigi.Atleast till next June. 100 777 FOs in trainin now. So I would suggest first officers just to stay away.

@Romasaik . No hard feelings please.


They are phasing out all the 200s. They all will be gone by Dec 2017 leaving with 20 odd 773. So beginning next year 777 fleet is going to shrink. Growth will be in A330s and they will make up all the flying. But as such the over all conditions are getting worse anyways. Like polax pointed out, the Malaysian recruitment has put the whole equation to a total chaos. Even on line it's hard to get a good roster and layovers are getting shorter and shorter. 16 hrs in LHR after all night flying !

More and more people are leaving and failing. What will happen when people don't fly for a year or someone is scheduled for line check after 40 days of no flying. I have nothing against those who fail, I'm sure they are good pilots. It's the system which has just got ridiculous. And a fleet of 200 by 2020 will not happen it seems.


Besides everything there will be a pay cut and reduced leaves in the next contract. Well, now they seem to have woke up after long time.

[Flyboy_SG]

Well said chocks, It costs them nothing and IMHO, 777s are the best from Boeing's stable.

[alloha]

@Igigi.Atleast till next June. 100 777 FOs in trainin now. So I would suggest first officers just to stay away.

@Romasaik . No hard feelings please.


They are phasing out all the 200s. They all will be gone by Dec 2017 leaving with 20 odd 773. So beginning next year 777 fleet is going to shrink. Growth will be in A330s and they will make up all the flying. But as such the over all conditions are getting worse anyways. Like polax pointed out, the Malaysian recruitment has put the whole equation to a total chaos. Even on line it's hard to get a good roster and layovers are getting shorter and shorter. 16 hrs in LHR after all night flying !

More and more people are leaving and failing. What will happen when people don't fly for a year or someone is scheduled for line check after 40 days of no flying. I have nothing against those who fail, I'm sure they are good pilots. It's the system which has just got ridiculous. And a fleet of 200 by 2020 will not happen it seems.


Besides everything there will be a pay cut and reduced leaves in the next contract. Well, now they seem to have woke up after long time.
20 odd 773? Really? 24 is the current number and will be 35 till next June. The oldest one is 4 years old. There 100 FO's in training for the T7 cause there are ground schools for 75 command upgrades.

[metro301]

SG -

1. Where exactly did you come up with the idea there will be a paycut and reduced leave next contract? Conjecture on your part? Having been here for over a decade and knowing the history going further back. There has never been a reduction to the contract without a corresponding increase in some other allowance.

2. The 16 hour LHR's have been around well over a year or two. Before that, there were 16 hour BOM's. So this is not new nor dramatic.

3. If I have been following the thread correctly, you are newly released to the line. What are you basing your statement on that it is harder to get a good roster now? Your long experience of the seasonal changes to the schedule?

[King on a Wing]

Yes 200 Malaysians might have joined up initially.
But they haven't spoilt much. Mostly because less than 50% are left, with many more waiting eagerly in line to leave. On both the Bus n Boeing fleets.
They are literally leaving in droves. Mostly due to 'impending situations and circumstances' here in SV.
In fact these very pilots might be the reason that SAUDIA is in the spot it is in today.
A complete mis calculation.
Obviously, all of the Malays who have left or frozen their contracts are already on the Payrolls of other SE carriers.
It's a comedy of sorts. With very serious implications. For both the 'other' expat pilots. And for SAUDIA.

[Flyboy_SG]

25 is the number I heard from a senior management pilot. If it's 35 it's good, but still it's a decline in the total 777 fleet strength. I don't have a long experience here, thank God and I wouldn't want it either. Regarding the contract again from the same guy, it's not my idea, as we are trained here to memorise and not to think. No more Ramadan bonus, reduced leaves and contract in gegorian calendar. Well, we will wait for it to see it on paper. 22 reserve lines. What can you expect ? Hope it gets better by Next year. (Roster)

[Romasik]

Yes 200 Malaysians might have joined up initially.
But they haven't spoilt much. Mostly because less than 50% are left, with many more waiting eagerly in line to leave. On both the Bus n Boeing fleets.
They are literally leaving in droves. Mostly due to 'impending situations and circumstances' here in SV.
In fact these very pilots might be the reason that SAUDIA is in the spot it is in today.
A complete mis calculation.
Obviously, all of the Malays who have left or frozen their contracts are already on the Payrolls of other SE carriers.
It's a comedy of sorts. With very serious implications. For both the 'other' expat pilots. And for SAUDIA.

What could be implications for 'other' expat pilots?

[King on a Wing]

To begin with, EVERYBODY will be treated with mis trust and caution. Once bitten twice shy.
More importantly simply due to mis calculations, all expats would suffer.
Aparently the housing had secured a compound for the Malaysians exclusively while accommodating other expats in SV city and hotels. That will now have repercussions. Because now they will barely fill the new compound to 50 % capacity. Thus all others will be asked to move to the new compound.
The list goes on and on...

[Flyboy_SG]

And the new compound is in the desert....

[metro301]

Whole country is desert

[perantau]

http://www.saudiexpatnews.com/2016/05/jawazat-services-fee.html

How would the new fees affect those already there, and those intending to join?

[mutt]

Company will reimburse your fees as you need a exit visa to fly, but you will have to pay for your families exit visas. In theory the cost of a 12 month exit visa has changed from 1000 SAR to 2300 SAR.
If you are actually allowed to keep your kids outside for 12 months, this would actually be cheaper than having to fly them back every 6 months to renew their visas, so in a round about way, the new system might actually be cheaper for some!

[North_Bedouin]

Company will reimburse your fees as you need a exit visa to fly, but you will have to pay for your families exit visas. In theory the cost of a 12 month exit visa has changed from 1000 SAR to 2300 SAR.
If you are actually allowed to keep your kids outside for 12 months, this would actually be cheaper than having to fly them back every 6 months to renew their visas, so in a round about way, the new system might actually be cheaper for some!
Really? Cost of 12 month single exit/re-entry visa was 200 sr, from now 12 month single exit-reentry visa will cost 1200 sr. So extra 1000 sr per year/kid staying outside.
Visa renewal (holiday) run to KSA is covered by yearly domicile ticket (except airport taxes).
On the other hand now you will be able to issue exit/re-entry visa for longer period until iqama validity date so visa/iqama run can be once in two years.

[alloha]

BKK from December as diplomatic relationships between the two countries have been reestablish

[alloha]

Really? Cost of 12 month single exit/re-entry visa was 200 sr, from now 12 month single exit-reentry visa will cost 1200 sr. So extra 1000 sr per year/kid staying outside.
Visa renewal (holiday) run to KSA is covered by yearly domicile ticket (except airport taxes).
On the other hand now you will be able to issue exit/re-entry visa for longer period until iqama validity date so visa/iqama run can be once in two years.
the cost of the multiple exit/reentry visa from the 2nd of October is based on the origin of the passport . Schengen passport have a fee of only 250 SAR for 2 years, US passports is 400 SAR for 5 years . UK passports is 510 for 6 months or 1950 SAR for 24. All the other countries the rates are 3000 SAR/6 months , 5000/1 year and 8000 for 2 years

[North_Bedouin]

the cost of the multiple exit/reentry visa from the 2nd of October is based on the origin of the passport . Schengen passport have a fee of only 250 SAR for 2 years, US passports is 400 SAR for 5 years . UK passports is 510 for 6 months or 1950 SAR for 24. All the other countries the rates are 3000 SAR/6 months , 5000/1 year and 8000 for 2 years
This newly circulating info is talking about the cost of the multiple ENTRY visa for NON-RESIDENTS (e.g. business visit visa), and not about EXIT-REENTRY for iqama holders.

[metro301]

Is there a reference for BKK or is it just rumour? An announcement like that, days after the death of the Thai King could be pretty insulting to the Thai's.

Last I read, KSA was only sending someone to attend a conference being held in Thailand, no where near the establishment of full diplomatic relations.

[Jack330]

Anyone working there with an idea of the 787 destinations and bases please?
Thanks

[VAMY]

I see many are concerned about the extra costs as a result of visa fee increases. However, none of you seem too bothered about the NON payment of the contract completion bonus which, if not paid, would be a much greater cost/loss than then the visa fee increases.

[alloha]

I see many are concerned about the extra costs as a result of visa fee increases. However, none of you seem too bothered about the NON payment of the contract completion bonus which, if not paid, would be a much greater cost/loss than then the visa fee increases.
Gamy it is true that the company delays the completion bonus.sometimes more than 7 months But only in cases where there is a contract renewal. In cases with complete contract termination and no renewal ,bonus is being given immediately so you can have your bank clearance letter.

[VAMY]

Alloha, what you say concerning the "Contract Completion" bonus being paid when you are leaving Saudia at the normal end of your contract term was, until recently, correct. It was part of and included in your final settlement, provided you completed the full term of your contract. If you left before your contract completion date, or where terminated before, then the likely hood would be that you would not get the "contract completion bonus" for the obvious reason i.e. you would not have completed your contract term.

Until recently, the "Contract Completion" bonus was being paid to pilots who renewed their contracts. In these cases, it was common for the bonus payment to be delayed for a few months. Seven months delay would have been excessive and unusual.

However, what is happening recently is different. Pilots who are renewing their contracts are being told by both GM Flying and VP Flying that the "Contract Completion" is not going to be paid "until further notice" and "subject to the approval of Saudia HR Department". In these most recent of circumstances it is unlikely that the "Contract Completion" bonus will be paid even to pilots who are leaving at the normal end of their contracts.

Other changes affecting renumeration of expat pilots are likely to follow as part of the KSA government's budget reduction and cost reduction programs.

[argentina21]

If that were to happen, what would be the point of working at Saudia?

[Romasik]

If that were to happen, what would be the point of working at Saudia?
Many people will definitely leave. Without any doubt. And many are already actively looking around. The picture will be clear in coming few months. Untill now the only development is comlpletion of contract delay. Let's see the next salary.

[VAMY]

The supposed reason being "bandied about" by GM Flying & VP Flying for the "delay" or NON payment of the Contract Completon Bonus is that it is "according to a recent Royal Decree". Well, at least that is what is being relayed is the reason being given by SV HR Department.

However I find it very hard to believe, that if correct, the "decree" can be retrospectively applied to contractual agreements already signed and in existence. It will need someone, or a group, to challenge Saudia in the Saudi Labour Court.

[mutt]

Strangely enough we weren't considered "saudi government employees" when the bonuses were being handed out last year:)

[Flyboy_SG]

How can they say no to the contract completion bonus, when it's part of our contract clause ?

[VAMY]

The same way they say no to the "government employee" bonus mentioned by Mutt. If you "don't protest you won't get". I believe some sort of official complaint will be needed.

[mutt]

Some interesting new changes to our salaries, unfortunately not in our favour!

[VAMY]

Mutt, what changes to our salaries are you referring to? Please would you elucidate?

[Romasik]

Mutt, what changes to our salaries are you referring to? Please would you elucidate?
To start with - no 3% increase this year.

[polax52]

If they mess around too much with our pay then they'll be in trouble in the next couple of years. Iran have already ordered 117 airbuses and are about to make a similar order from Boeing. All to be delivered by 2023. They don't have any glass cockpit Pilots of their own. Iran Air will be bigger than Saudia.

[metro301]

Polax... Thank you for pointing out the reality of the employment situation and hopefully putting a damper on all the hysterical talks.

[VAMY]

Metro301, I don't think what's being said recently on the forum is "hysterical talk"-it is better described as realistic.

The KSA government definitely has financial problems now and going forward. If the expat pilot group just "sits back" and says nothing, well furhter reductions will become a "self fulfilling prophecy". If, on an individual basis, no one makes their disapproval of the reductions in terms & conditions known in writing to both Flight Operations & HR Management, then they will both assume the reductions are acceptable, as "sure as eggs are egg" more reductions will then follow.

As for Iran and their recent aircraft orders.

Their new aircraft will need crewing, for sure, but have you seen what Iran currently pay their pilots? It's certainly less than half of what Saudia pays for the A320 & B777 so Iran has some way to go, in pay terms, before they present any sort of a problem to Saudia's pay.

The bigger market is a China and South East Asia and that's where upward movement in flight crew salaries will occur.

The higher salaries are presently in China, mainly driven by the expansion of the Chinese domestic carriers and have risen in the last two years from about USD 200,000 to nearly USD 280,000 for the best paid airlines amongst them.

The Chinese carriers have not really started to expand internationally yet. Remember, that China currently has four out of ten of the world's largest airlines. When they do start to expand, the pay will continue upwards, certainly the next 5yrs to 7yrs.

When the Chinese market puts upward pressure on pilot salaries the rest of the expat market will follow.

I would expect that both Qatar & Etihad will have to increase salaries to continue to attract flight crew over the next three years. This is because the bulk of both of their large aircraft orders are due to start from next year going forward for next three years-just at the same time as expansion in China and South East Asia will fuel a huge demand for expat flight crew.

As for the Saudia expat pilots. If you want to stop further reductions in expat terms and conditions, then the expats should "put pen to paper" and let their grievances be made known to Saudia management.

[truejoboffer]

With the scrapping of the 3% increase in the contract signed to be paid on hegira calendar changed in gregorian shows that the contract you sign outines only your obligatins but not theirs.


QUOTE=Flyboy_SG;9557041]How can they say no to the contract completion bonus, when it's part of our contract clause ?[/QUOTE]

[truejoboffer]

Good luck than, I think they will realise what a problem they created with the outflow of extremely needed pilots to china. People are working in Saudi Arabia only for one reason.... not for the climate. Once that reason is removed.....

The supposed reason being "bandied about" by GM Flying & VP Flying for the "delay" or NON payment of the Contract Completon Bonus is that it is "according to a recent Royal Decree". Well, at least that is what is being relayed is the reason being given by SV HR Department.

However I find it very hard to believe, that if correct, the "decree" can be retrospectively applied to contractual agreements already signed and in existence. It will need someone, or a group, to challenge Saudia in the Saudi Labour Court.

[polax52]

I am totally guessing but I imagine that shortly the Iranians will require 500+ (per year) experienced, current and qualified Pilots. I am certain that in the initial phase of that recruitment the package will have to be a good bit above the middle east average. I don't think that many of the right people will be attracted to Iran by 50% of Saudia's wage, nor do I think that they will be particularly attracted to Iran by Saudia's full wage.

[bafanguy]

" I am totally guessing but I imagine that shortly the Iranians will require 500+ (per year) experienced, current and qualified Pilots."

polax52,

Do you think Westerners would/should be hesitant about living and working in Iran under the political environment there ?

[ExDubai]

I would hesitate....

[metro301]

Vamy, I agree with most of what you have said except for making grievances known with pen and paper. I have been watching this forum as well as several of the internal pilot chat groups. Hysterical may have been a strong word, but I do see a lot of uninformed posts and lots of guess work from the pilot group.

Unfortunately, losing pilots or failing to attract new pilots will be the only message that is actually heard.

Fact of life at Saudia, when it comes to expats, the squeaky wheel doesn't get the oil. It tends to get the hammer. If grievances are brought up in a respectful and professional manner they may get some attention. Most of the time grievances are not brought up within the culturally excepted norms.

Another fact is that Saudia needs to pay a premium to attract qualified pilots to live where they live, Jeddah is a fine place to live but it is not Dubai or Saigon. We can all agree that recruiting is difficult enough as it is for SVA, reducing the contract package will effectively dry up any pool of qualified applicants.

When airplanes are sitting idle for a lack of pilots, the salary reductions will be reversed and then increased. Yes, there are financial pressures on the country as a whole; however, in this global employment market, if you don't pay the cash, the qualified individuals will simply move to a more favourable contract. No one is here under duress, and this is not Europe or N.America were collective bargaining is an established practice.

Just my 2 cents.....

[Romasik]

To some extent Saudia is able to cover pilot shortage by hiring pilots mostly from ME countries and by lowering upgrade requirements. Once fleet expansion is over this will be enough. So, they may afford to pay lower salaries. With cheap oil they will probably go for cheaper options.

[VAMY]

Metro 301, I agree with much of your "2 cents worth" and in the past much of what you say was and still maybe true but possibly not so anymore?

Saudia is now changing.

Advice and expertise to the DG and Senior Saudia Management at Saudia, on the strategy how to "Transform, Grow & Improve" the airline is no longer coming from Saudi management. It is coming from an ever increasing group of newly employed expat senior airline managers, as well as from a group of well proven aviation and highly regarded consultants(nearly all British). These consultants advise the DG directly and have been doing so for more than a year. This means the DG and senior Saudia management know ALL the true problems within the airline and especially Flight Operations.

These expat advisors and managers know the true situation in ALL the airline's many departments, including Flight Opeartions-that is why there has been in change in VP Flight Operations & GM Flight Operations in the last two months. The same people also know that Flight Operations will have to rely on expat flight crew to help with expansion-certainly over the next five year period. These people certainly do not want the current expat pilots to leave.

In the past it may have been true that the "squeaky wheel got the hammer rather than the oil" but I do not think that is so now.

Furthermore, the Saudi national pilots as well, as our Egyptian colleagues amongst us, have a mechanism for voicing their "collective complaints". I see know reason why the other expat pilot groups should not utilize a similar mechanism.

[argentina21]

The higher salaries are presently in China, mainly driven by the expansion of the Chinese domestic carriers and have risen in the last two years from about USD 200,000 to nearly USD 280,000 for the best paid airlines amongst them.

The Chinese carriers have not really started to expand internationally yet. Remember, that China currently has four out of ten of the world's largest airlines. When they do start to expand, the pay will continue upwards, certainly the next 5yrs to 7yrs.

When the Chinese market puts upward pressure on pilot salaries the rest of the expat market will follow.


Perhaps the "upward pressure" has already begun. As mentioned, the Chinese salaries are going up, the max salary amounts may even be higher than most people realize:

VOR Holdings Captains with over five years of service at Sichuan Airlines earn up to $352,800 per year plus overtime. With built-in pay increases, Captains with over ten years of service will earn up to $403,800 USD per year plus overtime. Sichuan Airlines is the highest paying airline in China and one of the highest in the world!

Compensation per month (net received by pilot after airline has paid taxes in China):

Option A (45 days annual leave)
$25,150 USD per month ($301,800 USD per year in year one) plus $250 USD per block hour over 85 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 85 hours per month after each 12 months

Option B (103 days of leave per year)
$20,700 USD per month ($248,400 USD per year in year one) plus $215 USD per block hour over 80 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 80 hours per month after each 12 months

Option C (161 days of leave per year)
$16,600 USD per month ($199,200 USD per year in year one) plus $180 USD per block hour over 75 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 80 hours per month after each 12 months

Option D (1 month ON, 1 month OFF)
$15,100 USD per month ($181,200 USD per year in year one) plus $160 USD per block hour over 75 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 75 hours per month after each 12 months

If you have at least 500 PIC hours in the A319/320/321 aircraft, 3,000 hours Total Time, current within 12 months and are under the age of 56, please send us the following information to schedule your interview:

[VAMY]

Indeed, it does seem so!

[polax52]

And the reason for the salaries being high in China? Because they have bigger issues for expat Pilots than there are at Saudia.
They have interviews with 15 qualified and current 777 pilots and they all fail. It depends on whether the flight department or the medical department are having a good day.

Back to plan A.

[Romasik]

And the reason for the salaries being high in China? Because they have bigger issues for expat Pilots than there are at Saudia.
They have interviews with 15 qualified and current 777 pilots and they all fail. It depends on whether the flight department or the medical department are having a good day.

Back to plan A.
But it does not hurt you much. You don't need to resign from your previous job until you are done with all simulator checks.

[VAMY]

Concerning China. In 2012 I did the selection & sim for China Southern when they first stared recruiting. Although the sim wasn't easy, any Captain experienced on the equipment and with a few thousand hours on type would pass without trouble. That's the level of experience China Southern were seeking for their long haul expat Captains. If you could pass the sim check with a lesser level of experience, then so much the better for you. The rest of the selection was conducted very gentleman like. The problem I faced at the time was retirement at 60 yrs of age. Even back then, the money was very good.

[polax52]

All 777-200's to be phased out with immediate effect. I presume that this means they will not be scheduled to operate for the summer season 2017 i.e. after March.

I think that will leave 777 lines for Captains at 50-60 hours per month. That'll be the largest pay cut. Forget tax, the 3% and the EOC bonus.

[VAMY]

Polax52, In case you are wondering the phase out of the B77-200 has been planned and accounted for by "those in the know" for at least the last three months. It is no surprise at all. There'll be no surplus crew problems, or if there is it will be only temporary, as the plan is to CCQ the surplus portion of B777 crew to the B787's due soon to arrive, or transition them to the B787 as a single fleet.

Obviously, the first option is the most cost efficient for the company and that is what is being advised and has been so for at least the last three months. There is also a big shortage of crew on the A330, which looks like it is going to be a big money fleet going forward for the next few years due increases in destinations, frequencies and hours. It may also be an alternative for any surplus B777 crew that do not fancy the B787 or too much B777 long haul.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

VAMY

as well as from a group of well proven aviation and highly regarded consultants(nearly all British)

One of them is Greek, well sort of....:\

[VAMY]

Yes he is, sort of, but he knows his speciality very well indeed!

[metro301]

Dropping all the 200's is a pretty big move. Will the 330 be picking up all the medium haul?

Gaca did not seem overly thrilled with CCQ in the past (320-330), has that changed? Last year the airline was talking CCQ starting with instructors then seniors. I don't think it has happened yet.

[VAMY]

There are changes being imposed on Flight Operations from above, with planned expansion and shortage of crew CCQ on the Boeing & the Airbus fleets is the obvious way to go. Many of their Middle East competitors utilize CCQ and Saudia higher management are asking " why should Saudia be any different? In the past it was Saudia Flight Operations that were reluctant, mainly because of vested reasons within the Flight Operations Management community.

The plans for the A330R is mainly to operate regional and some higher capacity domestic routes. The regional routes are basically anywhere within about 3 hours flight time-North Africa, Near & Middle East, The Persian Gulf, India, Pakistan, some East Africa, etc. The longer range A330's might pick up a few routes into Europe but that is not really the plan. The A330 is the most likely fleet to have a decent and proper commuting roster, for those that want it.

The above is my best guess.

[Flyboy_SG]

Payslip still reflects hegira month, I guess we have lost only the 3% pay rise.

[VAMY]

Heard the news? I believe a new Saudia CEO is soon to be appointed. He arrives next month & guess what? He's another expat! A German, I believe, or maybe an Austrian?

[Flyboy_SG]

So it's just going to get worse I believe.

[mutt]

Based on the latest bulletin, Mr Richard Nuttal has moved from Vice President Commercial Transformation to Vice President Sales, no other expats mentioned at this time, but they did move about 20 people into various positions.

[Flyboy_SG]

More and more failures and resignations in the last few weeks. An expat capt resigned just before his "star" flight. He said "I just cant take it anymore". Another expat line FO was made to fly first and put down during his PPC. Lots of failures in training for stupid reasons.


Several expats (FOs as well as capts) are waiting to complete the training, Whereas locals from Embraers complete 777 training under 4 months. Not to mention other arabic speaking expats get their way through by getting good instructors and check airmen. And in line, reserve line, stupid flights all night short sector , no overtime, constant calls from rostering and much more.
Clearly they are sending out a loud message that " we don't want expats any more on 777 "

Overall morale has hit the all time low.:ugh:

[polax52]

Flyboy...... It's true that local Captains who are in transition from one fleet to another get a priority over initial Captains. This isn't in anyway hidden or unreasonable. Local first officers upgrading to Captain often take 1 year to complete that course. Expat initial Captains only take 7 months. The priority in Transition is also given to Expat Captains. Most legacy carriers around the world use seniority to decide Priority and I would have thought that this was fair.

There are many things to complain about but this is not one of them. The current training regime and failure rate is an issue.

[Flyboy_SG]

I meant Local Embraer FOs transitioning to B777. Yeah that's a bigger one.

[metro301]

Good for them, I am glad they are having the chance to transition. Hiring Expat FO's to the wide body was always controversial with the locals. Many never saw the need.

[Flyboy_SG]

Now even the management never sees the need !

[mutt]

Company : Malaysian Airlines
Contract type : Full Time
Aircraft type : Airbus 330, Airbus 340
Job location : Malaysia
Job published date : 2016-11-07
Job expiry date : 2016-12-04
Monthly salary :


This is kind of funny, I wonder how many recent hires will return home.

[King on a Wing]

Now in a desperate move they are offering 787 courses to expat trainee captains.
:ugh:

[mutt]

expat trainee captains To whom?.....

[King on a Wing]

New hire direct entry captains

[Flyboy_SG]

New hire 777 DEC who are in line training exactly.