Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)

[DEL Mode]

All the chatter about MRA4's ad JSF's...........

.......Whats the current state of XH558?

Is she going to fly?

When's she going to fly?

[BEagle]

Undergoing a major service - commenced Aug 2005. It's going better than anticipated.

Yes. Aircrew have started training, including systems refresher training using XM655.

Target for XH558's first test flight is 2006, displaying in 2007.

For more information, see http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php

[Vox Populi]

message null and void

[BEagle]

And what is that supposed to mean?

[pr00ne]

Beagle,

Taken from their latest Newsletter;

“we have to recognise that expected sponsorship has not been forthcoming and once again the project has hit the wall”

A projected £350,000 shortfall? Technicians who have given up their jobs to come and work on 558 relying on raising this money……………”can we let them down?”

Is the project REALLY going “better than anticipated” ???

[Champagne Anyone?]

Must admit this project seems to be a bit of a white elephant...

The first flight date was due to be Sept 2005 and displays expected to start at the beginning of the 2006 season but now its put back..... again!!

I'm not so sure it will ever get airborne...

If it doesn't, it will be a shame. There are lots of us who have raised money in one way or another for this project. I would love to see it fly again but I for one won't be holding my breath.....

[Blacksheep]

I said it before and I'll repeat it here. We'd put one up in the air for one six hour sortie and it'd take us another three days to get it ready to go again. That's in the days when the equipment was still in production and we were fully supported by the "VOG" system that guaranteed us a replacement part within 24 hours.

Many of the manufacturers have since gone out of business and even those who remain no longer make the original parts. Does anyone happen to have a collection of ancient Post Office relays in the attic to keep that infernal automatic refuelling system going? How about a "FireTec" control unit or two? Some fuel tank units? - every tank had their own dedicated Sec/Ref number. Then there were those dreadfully unreliable amplifiers for the fuel quantity indication system. No doubt she could be navigated by map and pencil aided by a hand held GPS in emergency, so the clockwork GPI and Green Satin don't need to be too reliable. There's probably a few replacement parts for the Smith's MFS lying around in museums somewhere and I know the aircraft can be refuelled manually - we used to do it all the time - but will the UKCAA certify it for a Permit to Fly without having every airworthiness related system system fully serviceable? I don't think so - and I'm only considering the E & I bits that I knew so well. The engines and airframe spares will be just as hard to come by. Admittedly, most of the obsolete equipment could be replaced by modern equivalents, but that requires expensive and hard to certify modifications and in some cases, even the dreaded "Supplementary Type Certificate".

I really do admire the dedication and hard work of those who are working on the Vulcan to the Skies project, but whatever many folks may think, getting 558 back in the air is the easy bit. The really expensive and difficult part of project will be keeping it there.

[BEagle]

Do read the VOC newsletter a bit more carefully.

This isn't a band of enthusiastic amateurs doing a back garden shed job, it is a restoration project backed by Marshall Aerospace who are the effective authority for the aircraft. It is a nut and bolt restoration and it is estimated that the major service will require 15% less work than originally anticipated due to the excellent state of the aircraft.

Yes, there was a delay of about 12 months in getting the approvals needed for the major service. Much of the original funding had to be spent bringing the hangar at Bruntingthorpe up to current Health and Safety standards to allow maintenance to be carried out.

The sponsorship shortfall is being addressed; many who believe in the project will be again be putting their hands in their pockets. What does not help is ill-informed clatrap from knockers.

And no, most of those unreliable old avionics won't be needed! Doppler/GPI and all the NBS panel won't be needed as the aircraft will be fitted with twin GPS instead - remember it'll be subject to Permit restrictions. I don't know whether the HRS will be restored or whether 558 will merely use MFS for the flight instruments.

[Blacksheep]

I don't know whether the HRS will be restored or whether 558 will use MFS for the flight instruments.If they're not, the aircraft will need to be modified from its original configuration. Anything as radical as a new attitude reference or fuel quantity indicating system would require a major modification from an approved design organization. Capable as they are, is that kind of modification within the scope of Marshalls' design approval? British Aerospace would certainly be OK, but I doubt if they are willing or able to commit such a high level of resources to the project.

My point was, the availability of (often small and seemingly insignificant) spare parts is the critical factor that will determine the cost of getting and keeping the aircraft airworthy. Original Equipment Manufacturers' (OEM) goodwill is one thing but they are not charities and must consider their shareholders views.

My own experience of civilian maintenance and airworthiness matters leads me to believe that this project is ill-fated. The UKCAA are one thing, but EASA looms larger on the horizon and it is EASA's rules that will apply by the time 558's overhaul is completed. So far, EASA have shown an entirely different view to the UKCAA's regarding aircraft preservation and "Permit to Fly" operations. Meanwhile the future of 'Sally B' remains under threat (http://sallyb.dcgservices.com/news_frameset.php) due to new EU insurance regulations based on aircraft weight. Vulcans, of course, weigh very much more than B17s.

I'd much rather see at least one Vulcan properly preserved in good condition for posterity, than have the owners go broke and leave the aircraft to rot. It isn't the start-up costs that put the majority of new small businesses out of business, its under-estimating operating costs and over-estimating revenue.

Nevertheless, as an old Vulcan mender, I really do hope that I'm proved wrong.

[Gainesy]

Are you personally involved BEags? I.E. Aircrew for the beast?:ok:

[BEagle]

My involvement at this stage has been as one of those who have made a financial contribution, although I have assisted to a very small extent in other areas.....

And I meant 'whether HRS will be restored or whether 558 will merely use MFS for the flight instruments'. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Aeronut]

It's all going to be OK. Marshall Aerospace are involved!

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEagle,
You know that I have the utmost respect for you, but are you absolutely 100% confident that you are right about this.

I too would love to see the old girl fly, and like you have a vested interest in her, but I am concerned that yet again, we are hearing of yet another ££££shortfall. Why is that?

It wasn't that long ago when a very prominant person within the organisation told me personally that 'money is NOT a problem' indeed, he told me that they had enough money ALREADY to complete the project and keep some in the kitty for future use.

Now, alas, we are hearing the same story that we have heard for years, and that is a lack of money.

It seems there is always some other excuse for needing the cash, and the latest, as you say, was to bring the hangar up to current H & S standards. Did those at the top of this project not forsee that little problem? It's not like H & S isn't in our face every minute of the day is it (I know 'cos I'm currently re-writing ours!)

I still wish it the very best of luck, but I regret that even the hardened supporters like myself are almost ready to call it a day, and stop throwing good money after bad. As for Marshall Aerospace being the authority, then I reserve judgement on that!

Kind regards as always
TSM
ps Caruthers sends his best to you!

[BEagle]

Greetings to you, TSM - and Scrotum sends his to Caruthers!

Regarding the current shortfall, this is what the Trustees say:

"We really want to keep things moving to our
target of first test flight in 2006. However, the
VTST Trustees have to be prudent and thought
it wise to tell you that £350,000 is now a
projected shortfall and it is vital to the
programme that this money is available in the
short term.

There are two major reasons that this amount is
still required, one is because there was a figure
in the budget for sponsorship, which we were
assured by professional sponsorship advisors,
would be forthcoming. This has not materialised
and has created the shortfall.

The second is that the time lapse between the
award of the grant and the commencement of
work on aircraft has been almost a year due to
an unavoidable contractual delay period during
which time a skeleton staff and the aircraft had
to be maintained. No excuses, these and a
number of other reasons, too numerous to list,
have been contributory. Even in hindsight
nothing could have been done any differently
but what needs to be addressed is the now!

Believe me letters are out everywhere and hope
continues that someone will jump in and help –
and, yes, Sir Richard Branson has been asked!
Why now when they haven’t before one has to
ask but equally, we all have to hope, too.

We, that is you, and the Heritage Lottery Fund
(and that’s kind of you too isn’t it!) and VTST
have got this far. Do you think we can do it for
one more step? It would mean asking you to
send at least £20 and we would need the
majority of you to respond to meet the target!
Obviously, if you cannot manage £20 any
donation will be gratefully received at this time.

It’s easy to hear you thinking, bottomless pit,
and to some extent you are right, good money
after bad you may be saying. But this is the last
gasp, bar the actual display programme in
2007, and we must assume that there will be
support for that. So we do need to keep going
to first test flight and, together, realise our goal."

Well, I'm stil very supportive and have today sent off another donation. Incidentally, they are also raffling a free return trip for 2 to Thunder City, Seth Efrika( plus hotel) for a flight for one in Mike Beachyhead's T-bird Lightning. Only £1 per ticket for the only chance many will ever be likely to have for a Lightning flight! Perhaps even WIWOLs will end up supporting 558!

It would be a tragedy if the aircraft never made it back into the sky.

[lasernigel]

Well done Beags for sticking up with the project and stopping the doom and gloom merchants having a field day.
I came back to work today after a week off and mentioned what the raffle prize was this time.Will definitely have to order more tickets.
For all you amateur soothsayers out there instead of mocking why don't you reflect and have a bit of pride in the work that's being done.If a few more of you stopped mocking and put your hands in those big deep 22 + year pensions you've got instead of castigating like witches around a cauldron 558 would stand a chance.I certainly will be forgoing a couple of Fridays down at the pub to maximise another contribution.
:ok:

[Lost_luggage34]

Hear, hear lasernigel.

A nicely worded post which echoes my thoughts entirely.

[tmmorris]

BEags,

Haven't yet donated - but the raffle sounds fantastic. Where can one get tickets?

Tim

[Green Meat]

As someone else who puts hand to pocket for the project, I keep on readIng posts with such wonderful epithets as "do you remember this?" and "it was all a lot better when we had that". Now is the time to have some practical nostalgia.

Blacksheep, I remember reading many moons ago before the VTS project had really got under way, that a goodly quantity of spares had been obtained via MoD disposals. Don't forget, this is one aircraft with limited projected display flights, not one of a squadron or wing which must generate sortie after sortie, day in, day out (or until the fuel budget is exhausted :E )

Personally, and I say this in context of our modern 'stripped-to-the-bone-and-then-some' budget constraints, I find it a damn shame that the BBMF didn't keep one of the lovely old V-Force birds.

Oooo! Drop yer knickers and show us yer ECM bins....

:uhoh:

[BEagle]

tmmorris - see http://www.tvoc.co.uk/raffle.php

[GeeRam]

It's a shame that fellow Brunty based group LPG couldn't have had this prize as a raffle to help with the raising of a measly £20k, (in comparison to the Vulcan funds), that they need to raise to complete the re-erection of the old Wattisham QRA shed at Bruntingthorpe to get their 2 x working Lightnings under much needed cover.

QRA shed progress (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50116)

[The Swinging Monkey]

lasernigel,
I hope you dont regard me as a 'doom and gloom' merchant, although I fear you do as BEagles comments were in responce to my posting.

As someone who spent most of the 70's in the back of one of these magnificent beasts, I do very much have a vested interest in getting 558 airborne again, and can think of nothing better than to hear her mighty roar at an airshow.

My comment was simply that despite assurances from some people who were, AND STILL ARE at the top of this project that 'money is NOT a problem' it yet again appears that money is very much a problem, and quite a big one!

Now I don't know your circumstances nigel, but like many tens of thousands over the years (maybe even millions!) I have donated lots and lots of money in purchases, raffles, donations blah. to keep this thing alive It just concerns me that despite assurances from those at the top, there is a major financial shortfall - YET AGAIN!

If these guys are getting it so wrong about one item, the money, I worry that they get the other things right.

I still wish them all the best, but I feel that like myself, the vast majority of people will soon be calling time on giving money to this project.

Nevertheless, I'll still buy a ticket!

Kind regards to all
TSM

[lasernigel]

Swinging Monkey
Not at all.But just want to see it fly again.My connections are my Uncle Joe flew up front on them and Valiants(see main Vulcan Thread) and my Aunties were telephonists at AV Roe at Woodford.So as a little lad saw the Vulcan and Shacks being built.
I unfortunately ended up in the Army but am totally mad about aircraft esp our military past.
Not rich,still have a big mortgage due to more than one divorce over the years!
But as said will sacrifice some personal pleasure for possible pleasure of not seeing a dry eye for miles when it lifts into the air again.:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

lasernigel, not L'Estrange by any chance?

[Samuel]

Nevertheless, I'll still buy a ticket!

I'd love to buy one too, maybe even a book or two, but no one seems to be at that e-mail address published on one of Beagle's posts, and the thread with the prize as its topic seems to have been removed or relocated [either way ,I can't find it].:(

[lasernigel]

Samuel If you follow this link (http://www.vulcan558club.com/) it will get you in contact.Good luck.:ok:

Pontius Que??No Joe Matthews!

[lasernigel]

Mike He's still OK as a Canadian citizen living in B.C.Joined British Aerospace before emigrating and retiring.
Joe Matthews that is.:ok:

[pr00ne]

Last time I saw Joe L’Estrange was at the funeral of S/L John (Jack) Fryer, ex SATCO Manby, ATC Finningley and Scampton among others, GATCO 23 Group and wartime Spitfire pilot, this must have been 1983 or 4?

Wonderful displayer of the Tin Triangle

[Gainesy]

I've always thought that Joe L'Estrange didn't so much display the Vulcan as waltzed it.

[BEagle]

"On 7 October 1995, with Squadron Leader Joe L'Estrange and CAA Captain Roger Frampton at the controls, XL426 moved under her own power for the first time since arriving at Southend nine years previously."

XL426 is the Vulcan which is based at Sarfen' Airpawt, Essex. Innit'

[southside]

I have to admit to enjoying a lot of inter-service banter with our light blue bretheren....BUT, I can't wait to see this aircraft fly again...I'll be first in the queue for a ticket to the first air show.

[allan907]

Seem to remember at Finningley in the mid to late 60s Joe Le'Strange managed to bend (overstress) the wings of one tin triangle.

Certainly remember him doing a practice one summers' evening at Finningley - bloody magic!

[Samuel]

Lasernigel; thank you, but I've been there and done that, and short of a UK phone number for tickets, you end up back with an e-mail address [email protected] . which no one seems to be monitoring!

On the basis that you won't win if you don't have a ticket, I'll persist! I reckon I could squeeze into a Lightning...a tight squeeze but for that ride I'd do whatever it took!

[BEagle]

Have you tried +44 1258 841274?

Regrettably the 'Do you fancy a trip in a Lightning' thread was pulled by the PPRuNe Godfathers. No idea why - the raffle is purely intended to benefit the Vulcan to the Sky Charity 1101948.

The only way we'll get 558 back into the air short of a major benefactor is through donations from the general public. A pity that PPRuNe clearly does not see it that way.

[Washington_Irving]

God, I wish this will happen. Being something of a young-un (in relative terms) the only recollection I have of the Vulcan flying was at airshows when I was a wee lad in the early 1980s. Loud enough to wake the dead, IIRC.

Years later I got to be awestruck once again when my fellow Flying Scholarship studes and I frequently had to taxi our little C152s under the wing of the one parked up at Wellesbourne Mountford. It was not altogether unlike that opening scene in Star Wars with the Star Destroyer! :cool:

[BEagle]

That's 655 - still in excellent condition and parked next to South Warwickshire Flying School.

I helped taxy the old bird some months ago - first time I'd done that for 25 years. Only a slow run to check the systems, engines, brakes and steering. So we only took the engines up to around 80% in pairs...

Work is carried out on the a/c most Saturdays - and another taxy run is scheuled for next year.

[buoy15]

Well said Beags

I'm in your gang

If the Lottery can throw millions at a white elephant called the Dome - which half the country never saw - surely a few hundred thousand to commission a project that will thrill audiences world wide, is well worth the effort.

By the way, who is this a*se called Vox Populi ? Is he in a secure unit on medication under supervision?

We need to know

Regards B15

[Washington_Irving]

A couple of questions for you Beags:

1. How the hell did it get there in the first place? 36-18 is only about 3000ft long IIRC and I can't imagine it being carted through the local lanes in bits to be rigged on site. Must have been an "interesting" approach and landing.

2. Does everything that is parked on the grass along the length taxiway have to foxtrot oscar before you trundle down there or is the a/c towed and started up on the runway. (Oops, sorry- you probably use the 18 end, right?)

3. Is Rodney, the Indian Cavalier, still next door at SWFS? (Ex-Scots DG IIRC)

I can't imagine the locals taking too kindly to the noise of 4 x Olympus engines in the neighbourhood, especially those sods in that village to the north that force even lowly 152s to make a noise abatement turn after t/o.

Ahhhhh, Wellesbourne. I'm getting all dewey-eyed and nostalgic now... even if my instructor was an ocean-going stroker who almost put me off flying for life.

[B Fraser]

A pair of Vulcans were flown into Halton as instructional airframes. Now that must have been worth watching !

[Safety_Helmut]

The last one that went into Cosford was also pretty impressive by all accounts. Made it safely down. It then got bogged down on the grass during the move to its new home. Took quite some getting out I heard ?

Safety_Helmut

[BEagle]

'655 was indeed flown into Wellesbourne - on 11 Feb 1984! Hundreds turned up to watch the arrival.

The aircraft is towed to the runway for the taxying sessions by an ageing yanktank truck. Followed by the hippy VW microbus with the palousteand GPU. The a/c is taxied either on the stub of 05 for low speed stuff when the 'market' :rolleyes: is using the 23 end or the main 18/36 for high speed runs on event days.

Rodney is indeed still at South Warks

The a/c has considerable local support - but the moaners in the villages of Hampton Lucy and Charlecote still grumble about aircraft noise, so a 30 deg right turn after departure from 36 is required. The 18 circuit also has to avoid Loxley to the south west of the aerodrome.

But WB is still a very friendly place - and the Touchdown cafe does a roaring trade feeding and watering not just those who fly there, but also amiable bikers and the local Plod who frequently drop in for a brew.

[Green Flash]

I saw the Vulcan flown into Catterick. They closed the A1, lightened the old thing as much as possible, and it had enough fuel to do 2 approaches and get back to Leeming. The chute was streamed over the raod and we lost her in a cloud of tyres/brakes/runway smoke. Despite the place being tight for gliders she was hauled to a stop before she got an early bath in the River Wharfe. .:eek:

Then they threw her on the crash dump:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

No runway smoke. Not on a grass strip. Dust and grass maybe. I think the strip was about 4 500 feet and it was technically feasible to takeoff on as the takeoff run was about 4200 feet. Landing minimum was under 6 000 feet although 6 was the operating rule with a mandatory brakechute stream.

Mandatory that is unless there was a crosswind that prevented a stream. It was extraordinary but we never had in-limits crosswind landings on a 6 000 foot runway on a landaway. Can't think why.

Mind you the skipper streamed on the 11 000 foot strip at Goose and we couldn't understand that either. Especially as the whole ish dumped, in its valise, as soon as the drogue pulled the bag out of the stowage.

[Green Flash]

Pont N

Methinks I was not making myself clear. Catterick had, still HAS, a tarmac/concrete runway. It's still there but the Army are building all over it. The gliders winch off the parallel grass strip.

[Pontius Navigator]

GF, I bow to your better knowledge. Although I had the priviledge of doing a one week course at Catterick, squeezed in to 4 weeks, including time on the airfield, I obviously missed that stretch of tarmac.

[FJJP]

The 'smoke' you saw was probably dust. I was scheduled to deliver the ac, but subsequently it was decided that a trapper would do the job because of the short runway. Never mind that we had practiced back at Scampton and could stop well within the distance [can't remember the figures].

It was agreed that we would shut down on the runway and the ac towed to the dump - the taxyways were very narrow and in poor condition. Anyway, said trapper was smarter that everybody else and decided to taxy it round. It took the annoyed staff at Catterick a long time to dig the bogie out of the grass, where he put it as he turned off the runway. Pratt.

[BEagle]

Was that the GSU person with the French-sounding name?

(Edited to add: I don't mean dear old Joe L'Estrange!)

[Champagne Anyone?]

I have a quick question...

Will 558 ever get finished and back in the air? All it seems to do is miss every deadline by miles and the next one set months away, by an even greater margin.

Is there any hope?

I support the charity but am geting a little fed up with keep hearing excuses and not the mighty birds engines spooling up for flight.


Any realistic update anyone??

[flipflopman RB199]

As much as I would love to respond to this thread in great detail... :rolleyes:

May I suggest you visit http://www.tvoc.co.uk and do a spot of digging for yourself?

You should find the answers to most of your questions there, from people who do actually have an idea as to what is going on with XH558.


Flipflopman

[Tombstone]

Lets just say that I'm quite confident about not having to buy any roses until Valentine's Day...;)

[green granite]

Go Here and you can watch it being worked on.

http://www.camvista.com/england/other/vulcantothesky01.php

[Pontius Navigator]

Lets just say that I'm quite confident about not having to buy any roses until Valentine's Day...;)

Could be cold, wet and windy rather than just wet and windy.

Hope it is earlier or pray for fine weather.

[The Swinging Monkey]

The problem is that there are too many so-called 'experts' who front up this project, who frankly know diddly squat! I was told personally by 'Rusty' that the aircraft would definately be at Waddo, although she did say it wouldn't display, just static. She also categorically told me that it would fly and display at RIAT, guaranteed. Well guess what?

Of course neither happened, and you end up with further frustration at a team that appears to be ruderless and makes promises they cannot keep. The result is a public that is once again rapidly running out of patience.

At RIAT I asked the 'official' Vulcan stall if they had any memorabilia to purchase and was told that they only had some damaged compressor blades at some ridiculous amount of money. But i could make a donation please! Yeh, right.

I'm afraid that all you get is this never-ending plea for more money, promises that never materialise and a total lack of credibility from an organisation that should and could do so much better.

Robert Plemming never responds to posts on here, in fact he has never responded to one of the letters I have written to him and I know many others
have also written to him with no responce. But unless something happens fairly soon, the project will again come under threat and perhaps fold. Its time for them to stop poncing around and showing off in their 'freebie' 4x4's and get something done, that the puiblic can see.

With only one 'major' type airshow left in the UK this year, it looks highly unlikely that the public will see the old girl fly this year, or maybe not any year, who knows?

Kind regards
TSM

[iank]

...and there I was the other day wondering if Tombstone was practising his Salsa and getting various (previously unseen in public) bits waxed and touched up? :cool:

[XL391]

There are so many variables, that if, for example, the delay with the PFCU motors, that it is nigh on impossible to pin down an EXACT flight date. There are so many things to go wrong and they are at the mercy of so many suppliers/OEM's that no one can say for sure when she'll fly. :ugh:

As Flip Flop Man said, go to the website forums, ask the question, and an engineer will give you the answer. Quite simple really... :}

[BEagle]

Don't worry, Tombstone - Primetime Joanna will supply both camera crew and rose......

Part 2 of her Vulcan to the Sky trilogy (yes, I know) is now out - a very good DVD indeed - you can see a preview on the www.tvoc.co.uk (http://www.tvoc.co.uk) website. Please buy one and support the project - part 3 should be out in August, with luck. And a 4 part boxed set later in the year.

And VIP tickets have now been won (not by me :sad:) to view the first flight.

Expect to hear the purr of 4 x Olympussies very soon now!

[Tombstone]

I'm hoping that I will have to make an arse of myself as I really want to see the lady fly however, I don't think I will anytime soon...:{

The season will be well and truly over long before they are ready to launch, according to my well placed contact. Shame.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tombstone, as for iank's post, fair turned my stomach.

[forget]

.........the delay with the PFCU motors,

Apart from FlipFlopMan we never get any sense from this outfit. Let me guess just how long they've known that re-certified PFCUs were a 'rather important' ingredient. :mad:

Anyway, is it the PFCU's or the PFCU motors? If it's the motors just how long does it take to re-cert an electric motor?

[Tombstone]

...and there I was the other day wondering if Tombstone was practising his Salsa and getting various (previously unseen in public) bits waxed and touched up?

WAX! Who mentioned wax?!? Rose thorns yes, wax no. That would simply be :mad: wrong, wrecking any (hmmm) street cred I'd have left after producing said rose and going hands free...

Touched up... Well, if there are any pretty ladies out there who are willing...:ok:

[splitbrain]

One of the things I learned very, very quickly as a techie was to avoid giving an estimate of how long as job was going to take at all costs, because someone, somewhere would treat your word as a cast iron guarantee of job completion :* Aircraft maintenance is not always an exact science, and with the number of systems that this aircraft has, and their age and complexity, the team must have been faced with a daunting task in restoring her to flying condition.
In her day this old lady would have been maintained by a mass of experienced techies with spares on demand, full sets of APs, manufacturer support, and of course she wouldn't have been laid up for years doing nothing, gathering dust, moisture and corrosion in her vital parts. The team are having to re-learn old systems and also train up people who have never seen a Vulcan fly in their lives. I am actually amazed that they've got this close, and always thought that the estimate for flying her this year was optimistic, especially when I saw the state she was in last year. Missed deadlines are part and parcel of the job of getting her up again, keep the faith as I'm sure they'll do it.

[Sospan]

I am very surprised this thread has aired itself on what is a aircrew dominated forum, surely you guys should understand that such a laborious and critical task of restoring this particular type of aircraft can only be done one way and that is the CORRECT way !

These things take time, for the sake of 558, her crew and her fans, let the restoration take as long as is necessary.

Thank you......

[flipflopman RB199]

Just a very quick one, as this is not really a thread in which I wish to become entrenched,

Forget,

Thank you for your kind words, however, I must set the record straight regarding the PFCU motors. These were sent away to OEM over two years ago. The question of how long does it take to certify a set of motors, is a very pertinent one indeed. This has been completely out of the hands of TVOC, and has been entirely due to hold ups with the OEM. There have been issues with the motor bearings, then with the shellac for the windings, the list truly goes on. Return dates have come and gone, and unfortunately left us up the proverbial creek. The PFCU motors are unfortunately not the only components we have had OEM issues with, however, sadly, beggars cannot be choosers, and when you are having the work carried out for free, or at vastly reduced cost, you cannot simply go shouting the odds, especially when the support of the same OEM is critical to the CAA permitting the aircraft to fly.

I can assure you all that we are truly working as hard as is physically possible to return XH558 to the air as soon as possible, recently working anything up to an 18 hour shift in order to 'get the job done' however, sometimes things are out of our hands. I would like to ask for your continued support and a little faith in the fact that we are actually doing everything physically possible to return XH558 to the skies as soon as is humanly possible.

Finally, Tombstone, I can quite happily tell you that your well placed contact is quite wide of the mark, and I rest happy in the knowledge that when you are soon 'making an arse of yourself', you were actively looking forward to it :E

Thanks chaps :ok:


Flipflopman

[Blacksheep]

I must say that my original scepticism that this was a "do-able" project was based on my memory of how hard it was to keep the Vulcan fleet in the air with full support from all the OEMs and a fairly huge workforce. In forty years its still the most unreliable and labour intensive aircraft I've ever encountered bar none - even the Shack. I think its amazing that the restoration has got as far as it has. The boundless optimism that leads the team to miss deadlines is in fact the same optimism that keeps the project going.

Getting 558 airborne is of course only the beginning; keeping it airborne is likely to be even more expensive and time consuming. Even though I don't share the team's boundless enthusiasm, I do hope they succeed.

[K.Whyjelly]

Can't remember which of the following papers ran this (Times or Mail I think), but on Saturday en-route somewhere I remember seeing the chance to fly in the Vulcan being advertised

I didnt keep the paper in question and wondered if anybody else saw this?

Or was I just dreaming it all????

[BEagle]

The competition was to win a flight to fly in another aeroplane alongside the Vulcan, not in the Vulcan itself.

[The Swinging Monkey]

flipflopman RB199

The problem as I see it, is not the fact that delays occur (anyone with any understanding would expect that) but with the folks who 'front up' your organisation, and keep making promises that constantly fail to materialise.

When things don't go as 'promised' and the aircraft dosn't pitch up at Waddo or RIAT, it is those at the 'front' of your team who then blame everyone else for the delays, OEMs in particular.

This is what is getting people annoyed and frustrated with this entire project, constant promises from ill-advised so-called experts, who frankly wouldn't know one end of the aircraft from the other! Please tell them to just shut up and keep quiet and tell them they MUST stop making wild and unrealistic promises that do your cause more harm than good.

TSM

[K.Whyjelly]

Thanks for that BEagle........I was scanning the instruments far more intently than I was the paper....obviously! :O

[forget]

Granny and eggs not intended here - but was/is the electric motor in question unique to the Vulcan PFCUs? Unlikely I'd have thought.

Hmmm. Perhaps a little too far gone to be used as spares. :hmm:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/pfcu.jpg

[BEagle]

If you buy a copy of Joanna's new DVD, you will see that the aircraft is being rebuilt to a much higher standard than original. That's because the legislation of today requires it. The VOC will effectively be running to a one aeroplane airline standard.

The team are replacing anything and everything which requires change. The also discovered evidence of poor workmanship in the first place (such as the bomb bay heating system) and also had to remove some components which were never expected to need removal (such as oxygen pipework). Just watch the guys worming their way into the bowels of the jet to get at the parts which needed inspecting or changing - that's dedication for you.

The OEMs promised what they could - but they could not reasonably be expected to put aside revenue generating normal work when the necessary work (such as elevon repairs) proved to be more than was originally anticipated.

Yes, perhaps a better update and information system should have been in place. But rest assured that the first flight will be quite soon now - and please remind folk that any contributions are always welcome. Incidentally, £65K was raised by VTS Club members applying for the 15 pairs of VIP tickets to the first flight viewing, so there is definite interest in seeing the aircraft fly still out there!

See www.tvoc.co.uk (http://www.tvoc.co.uk) for the latest information - and please be patient for a little while longer!!

[Gainesy]

You seem to be quite closely involved BEags, are you down as one of the pilots?

[BEagle]

No, I'm not. Much as I would love to be, the fact is that I've had so few days in the UK this year that I wouldn't have been able to help much, even had I been fortunate enough to be considered.

But I keep in touch with People Who Do Know - although you won't get any sneak previews from me as I have promised total confidentiality.

[Gainesy]

Not after any previews, just idle curiosity.

I look forward to seeing it airborne (and a certain person doing something with a rose).:)

[Cypherus]

Not really wishing to cover old ground or be too pedantic regarding tantalising snippets about were and when 558 would or would not appear surley anyone with a grain of sense must understand the phrase 'Subject Too Servicability'.

558 is currently not servicable simple as that, when it is then the groups calender will advertise the dates that it 'May' appear and when they do I am certain that everyone involved will do there best to ensure those dates are kept.

So in the absence of a fixed date for first flight we must all rely on the engineers having the time too update the website or answer questions on the TVOC Forum with regard too how things are progressing.

Beyond that speculation is a rather futile occupation.

[spekesoftly]

as I have promised total confidentiality.But why the need? I thought that XH558 was now "owned by the nation", and therefore an open attitude is more appropriate. Not having a go at you Beags, if you've been asked to keep stumm, then naturally you must keep your promise. But I suggest an aura of secrecy is not conducive to attracting continued financial support from Joe public.

[BEagle]

There is concern that the Bruntingthorpe area would be overrun with twitchers if the date of the first flight leaked into the public domain. That could prejudice the safety of the area - the police don't have enough man power to remove idiots and their little aluminium step ladders from dangerous locations.....

[Dysonsphere]

And the surrounding airspace im sure they dont want to spend there first flight dodging spamcans by the dozen.

[cyclic_fondler]

But wouldn't they miss out on a massive PR opportunity by not announcing the first flight date?

If they are worried about safety, why not make it an official event. Sort out parking on the airfield and charge the spectators a small nominal fee to see the aircraft getting rolled out, made ready for flight and then the taxi and the take off. Any monies made could go to the fund. Invite the press.

I'd rather turn on the news on BBC/ITV etc and hear ".... and thousands turned up to see the historic Vulcan Bomber XH 558 take to the skies again" rather than a damp squid in the form of "And finally an old RAF bomber flew again after restoration"

[mystic_meg]

rather than a damp squid

Presumably it's dipped a tentacle (or two) into the water first, just in case it doesn't like it? :hmm:

[Not_a_boffin]

If you go on the website, they're VERY concerned that any large crowd immediately transitions the first flight from a "test flight" which is allowable, to a "display" which it will not yet be certified to do. Doesn't matter that it is not billed as a display - it appears that the presence of large number of the public will make it so under CAA rules.

[forget]

There is concern that the Bruntingthorpe area would be overrun with twitchers if the date of the first flight leaked into the public domain. That could prejudice the safety of the area - the police don't have enough man power to remove idiots and their little aluminium step ladders from dangerous locations.....

I’d wonder just how Bruntingthorpe plans to ‘keep secret’ the first flight of 558? The aircraft will be pushed in and out of the hangar for a week at least, for engine runs etc, before it finally launches. It wouldn’t take a 60’s ex Kremlin employee, probably still in the black Zlin that used to park on the A15, to predict within an hour or two, just when the nose will point skywards.

Trying to keep the event secret is just inviting problems. Probably almost the same number of people, but complete anarchy rather than crowd control.

This needs a re-think Hoskins! :confused:

[forget]

- it appears that the presence of large number of the public will make it (a display) under CAA rules.

Sorry, that has to be codswallop! Was Concorde's first Filton flight classed as a display?

[Winco]

Not a Boffin,

The CAA have a well laid down set of criteria for what constitutes a 'display' and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people that may be watching at the time Sir. The same applies to a scheduled 'test flight' also, so the info you have been given is not correct.

I am with the cyclic-fondler and forget on this issue. It would be a massive PR gaff if they did not announce the date of the first 'flight' albeit only a test flight. The publicity would be enormous and would rejuvinate many of those supporters who have perhaps lost a bit of faith and interest in the project.

That said, there is clearly a danger with having loads of GA aircraft 'poodling around' but that should be controlable with the necessary NOTAMS etc.

Either way, lets not hide this event away, it needs to be brought to the fore to show the supporters and the public alike that things are progressing with the old girl.

The Winco

[Not_a_boffin]

Winco

May be bolloeaux, but that's what Pleming is saying on the site...

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/news.asp

Happen to agree with making a big noise about it, but if it gets in the way of recertification, then it ain't helping.

[forget]

Pleming. anything approaching the numbers of VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display - something that an aircraft without a Permit to Fly could not carry out.

That statement doesn't irritate me - it makes me bloody angry. Has this project really been under the control of a man so far out of touch with the aviation world? He’s either, being advised by half wits, or he’s lying to make a futile point. Either way, just another indicator of the ‘management’ this project has suffered from - located 30 miles south of my present position.

If the Wright brothers could have seen this they’d have stuck to bicycles.

[illuminate]

it will be ready when its ready

I'm sure many other people feel frustrated but ranting on about it isnt helping the situation is it

[Wader2]

It wouldn’t take a 60’s ex Kremlin employee, probably still in the black Zlin that used to park on the A15

Green Singer Vogue dear boy, 'C' registered, London-Honington-Marham-King's Lynn-Coningsby-Waddington-Scampton-Hull-Finningley-Cottesmore-Wittering-Kensington Palace.

[forget]

Green Singer Vogue! Dammit. I always thought they were our guys -following the Zlin. :ugh:

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

...idiots and their little aluminium step ladders...

Spotters do you mean? Are these not the very species that all this fuss/enthusiasm/money/hassle is aimed towards?

[Wader2]

Spotters do you mean? Are these not the very species that all this fuss/enthusiasm/money/hassle is aimed towards?

Probably not.

Spotters Spot, they don't do airshows as people get in the way. Some spotters do photoshoots and get irate if people are allowed on both sides of an aircraft as legs spoil the shot.

At the Waddo airshow they will park on the Harmston Road for the Gnd to Air shots and not pay a penny. Even object to buying a programme.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Then why are they investing all this time/effort/money/hassle to get this old aeroplane back in the sky? Who is it for? If you remove the legions of "idiots and their little aluminium step ladders", then it seems like a massive investment in time and money for ....who?

[Winco]

A question for the good Dr Plemming.......(although I don't expect a reply, but you never know) Sir, you say..........

VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display

Has someone at the CAA really said that, or have you just made it up for some obscure reason? Perhaps in the absence of the good Dr, some of the other 'experts' at Bruntingthorpe could shed some light on the statement?

If it isn't correct (and I will check with the ANO and other CAA docs') then it's yet another instance of more rubbish coming from this organisation.

BEagle. I wonder how many of those 'idiots' have donated to this cause? It is a little unfair of you to condemn them for having a real passion with aircraft. You and I have the same passion, the difference is that we have both been fortunate to let Mrs Windsor pay us for the privilage haven't we? Don't be too harsh on them.

Winco

[Wader2]

tstk, clearly you don't do airshows then.

The men on little ladders amount to a few hundreds nationwide, maybe low thousands. They even have their own magazines and B&Bs.

Airshows OTOH pack in from 1600 to 50000 or even 100000 per day.

At £12 per pop an airshow would take £1.2m. Now tell me just how much would a man on a ladder pay?

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

tstk, clearly you don't do airshows then.

Yes, I attend several every year, though not always by pure choice. Sometimes it's my turn.

[Wader2]

Yes, I attend several every year, though not always by pure choice. Sometimes it's my turn.

Quite, never paid for an airshow once but been to many. Good fun flying through, better fun flying and landing, and not bad in lounger suit with free sunhat and shades.

See you didn't comment on my point between freebie viewing and the paying public. One problem with the Vulcan though, it is so large that huge numbers will be getting a freebie anyway. Unless that is the police prevent off-site parking near the show.

[forget]

For what it's worth.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/pleming.jpg

Dr Robert Pleming gained his Doctorate at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Oxford University . After a successful career in IT with IBM, in 1994 he moved to become the UK Technical Director for Cisco Systems, at a time when the company had only 18 employees in this country.

As an air cadet in 1968, Robert gained an RAF Flying Scholarship, and soloed in a Cessna 152 at Luton Airport . In the mid-'90s, a conversation with David Walton, owner of the recently grounded Avro Vulcan XH558, sparked the idea of putting together a formal proposal for the return of the awesome Vulcan to flight.
...
Robert built a team of expert advisors to investigate what needed to be done, and to guide the project's direction. This approach established sufficient credibility with British Aerospace and the Civil Aviation Authority for the decision to be taken to proceed with the activities necessary to achieve the return to flight.

In April 2000, with technical feasibility proved and the decision from British Aerospace to support the project behind him, Robert moved on voluntarily from his Cisco career to the full-time unpaid role of Project Director for what was then the Avro Vulcan XH558 Plan-to-Flight Project.
Since that time Robert has worked to bring the engineering project to the position in which it stands today, and his experience and lifelong enthusiasm for aviation contribute to ensuring a successful return-to-flight for this historic aircraft.

----------------------------

Name & Registered Office:
THE VULCAN OPERATING COMPANY LIMITED
LACEYS SOLICITORS
5 POOLE ROAD
BOURNEMOUTH
DORSET BH2 5QL
Company No. 03787161

Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 10/06/1999

Country of Origin: United Kingdom

Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
9999 - Dormant Company

Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2006 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due: 30/04/2008
Last Return Made Up To: 10/06/2007
Next Return Due: 08/07/2008

[G-KEST]

cyclic_fondler wrote -
"But wouldn't they miss out on a massive PR opportunity by not announcing the first flight date?
If they are worried about safety, why not make it an official event. Sort out parking on the airfield and charge the spectators a small nominal fee to see the aircraft getting rolled out, made ready for flight and then the taxi and the take off. Any monies made could go to the fund. Invite the press.
I'd rather turn on the news on BBC/ITV etc and hear ".... and thousands turned up to see the historic Vulcan Bomber XH 558 take to the skies again" rather than a damp squid in the form of "And finally an old RAF bomber flew again after restoration"
Article 80 of the ANO applies to any flying event where it is advertised and open to the public. It does not apply to aircraft at such an event that are landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. I doubt if any court would find this first test flight to be normal aviation practice.
If the event is private and not open to the public then Article 80 does not apply.
Should the first post restoration flight of the Vulcan ever take place then the last thing needed on that day is a huge crowd of onlookers, many of whom would be somewhat disenchanted at the almost inevitable holdups. I am sure the planned flight test crew would agree.
Yes, we can recall that first flight of Concorde so memorably described by Raymond Baxter at Toulouse. By all means invite the media but no others please.
Essential personnel only should be there and, despite their generosity, this does not include those whose cash has made the restoration possible.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:mad:

[forget]

and charge the spectators a small nominal fee to see

Therein lies the difference. You charge a fee - you're responsible. No problem with that. What Dr Pleming seems to think is that he can keep the whole thing a secret to prevent people from, quite legally, turning up on the perimeter.

[Wader2]

It has been mentioned about the obvious pre-flight preparation, taxi tests etc. It would be naive to think that there will be no spotters waiting for the first sign of movement let alone first flight.

It would be equally naive, although this is apparent in other spheres all the time, to ignore the speed of modern communications.

A stray bird is spotted and the cars arrive in minutes. 558 moves and people up to 50 miles away could be there in less than an hour. At my local airfield there are always cars in the car park watching and waiting 7 days per week good weather of fowl. (sic) In fact I would not mind betting they are there now. There will be people near Brunt with Airband receivers tuned and internet connections open ready to broadcast to the world.

[Winco]

G-KEST

Sir, might I point out that the opening two lines of article 80 of the ANO states...
'Article 80 of the Air Navigation Order 2005 (ANO) provides for the regulation of flying displays and contains a requirement for prior permission from the CAA for such events'

As this is a test flight and will most certainly NOT be part of a flying display, would you be so kind and point me in the direction of the ANO that states otherwise?

The air test will almost certainly be conducted wholly at medium or high level, well out of the view of the public and it will certainly not form part of a flying display. I'm not even convinced that inviting the paying public constitutes a flying display in its own right either, but I will check on that.

I am curious to know why you are so against members of the public witnessing the first, and subsequent, air tests of this aircraft. Its the public that have, by and large, paid for the aircraft and its' restoration. Why do you now want to deny the very people responsible for its existance the opportunity to see it lift off again on its maiden flight? Its almost as if you have something to hide from them?

Even BAe don't make as much fuss about their test flights of MR4 and other aircraft. What is the problem?

The Winco

[G-KEST]

Winco,
A flying display is defined in the ANO as "any flying activity deliberately performed for the purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public".
Make no mistake the flight will be seen as being both an exhibition and an entertainment for those present if it takes place at an advertised event open to the public such as you and others are promoting.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[forget]

.......... at an advertised event open to the public such as you and others are promoting.

Err. Apart from once, where else was this suggested. I see we're a dozen miles apart. You must be on a different water supply. :)

[Flame Out]

Wader 2, remember the hanger has a web cam, who needs to be camped near the airfield:). Your right though, strange bird and the twitchers turn up within hours from all over.

[Winco]

Trapper,

Maybe I'm reading this wrong.
I was under the impression that the first flight was to be an air test? Now if you would like the official definition of an air test, whether it be post servicing, post rebuild, post whatever, then I will gladly supply you with one, but we both know that it will NOT be for 'purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public' as you seem to suggest.

That is why, IMHO, it DOES NOT constitute a flying display. It will be part of a well documented, legal requirement to satisfy certain criteria prior to (hopefully) a permit to fly being granted by the CAA as you well know.

Of course, I am willing to be proved wrong, and await your further comments. Kind Regards

[Archimedes]

Winco, I wonder if it's simply a case of being ultra-careful?

If the team getting 558 airborne start advertising the fact that they're about to conduct the first flight, it is inevitable that people will turn up in some numbers to watch.

And it would seem - sadly - that it'd be just as inevitable in the current climate (where you can find someone mean of spirit close at hand wherever you turn) that somebody would file a complaint that the publicity was a means of circumventing the spirit of the ANO - i.e. although not billed as a display, that's exactly what the first flight was. Otherwise, the argument would be, why publicise it unless you wanted the public to turn up to watch?

It might also be contended that by publicising it, the event was being made open to the public, even if they were having to jam up the lanes around the airfield to get a vantage point. While I would personally view such a complaint as petty and - to borrow from Sir Humphrey - 'placing a greater epistemological burden upon the English language than it can reasonably be exepcted to bear', I can equally see why the team might not wish to run the risk.

Also, if - as has happened on several occasions in aviation history - some snag materialises on the day of the publicised first flight and the Vulcan can't get airborne, imagine how disastrous the PR would be.

[G-KEST]

Forget wrote - "You must be on a different water supply."
Yes indeed. Clean and totally unpolluted, thank the Lord. Others are not so lucky these days.
I fear the unbridled passion of those who want to attend in vast numbers will continue to promote the idea. I sincerely hope they fail to do so.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:=

[Dak Mechanic]

Could be that 1000's of bodies turning up at Bruntingthorpe would interfere with the non aviation activities - I would be worried as well. The last thing they need is loads of people lurking on the off chance that 558 will fly, and some of the locals have a bad case of the nimbys at the best of times.

Out of interest, where will she be based when flying?

It's been nice to pop in and see the old girl when we've been testing there.

[spekesoftly]

I'm reminded of John Cunningham's first test flight in the DH Comet in 1949. The press had been hanging around Hatfield for most of the day, when word filtered out that the flight was postponed. As soon as the press had dispersed, JC promptly took off !

[G-KEST]

A classic bit of British style and the right way to do it.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:D
:ok:

[forget]

A classic bit of British style……..

So your idea of British style is deliberate lying to deprive the tax payer (in the case of the Comet) and future generations, the opportunity to simply see photographs of where their cash has gone. Interesting. As I suspected, we are on a different water supply.

[BEagle]

For once, Barry, I agree with you.

The press who need to know have been informed, invited VIPs and a few lucky winners will also be there. Thousands of twitchers blocking the roads - hopefully not.

But it will be on TV, of that you can all rest assured.

Incidentally, by 'idiots' I meant step-ladder-man who will position himself in dangerous locations (such as the upwind boundary hedge) to get his thrilll.

But for such folk, I can reveal something they'd REALLY like to know:
















































The registration is XH558!

[rafmatt]

Just watching Hyperdrive on BBC2.
Just noticed the HMS Camden Lock had XH558 on the side

ha ha

[G-KEST]

BEagle -

Well it makes a pleasant change though, with your number of posts compared with my meager total, I really should take up your challenges more often.

However I am glad to hear the news from you, a most sensible arrangement.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:ok:

PS - Around 50 years ago your footnote would have been of huge personal interest only spoiled by the fact that serials had not got that far.

[spekesoftly]

But it will be on TV, of that you can all rest assured.Will it be shown "live" on TV, and if so, when is it being broadcast? :E:E

[Double Zero]

' forget' does seem indeed to be on a thankfully different water supply.

The existence and first flying of the Comet was not exactly a secret akin to the F-117...quite a few 'first flights' have been carried out in either 'unexpected' or quiet situations when the press hanging around would have been a pain and indeed an unwanted extra pressure - any last minute snag would be presented as a disaster to the programme.

I was a photographer for BAe at Dunsfold, & covered the first flights of the Hawk 200 & Harrier GR5 among others.

We had the photo's processed & going around the world ( 600+ prints by wet film & printing, pre-electronic days ) before the aircraft landed.

Having dealt with the newspaper press during other events there, I can say wholeheartedly the press really are the objectionable sharks they're made out to be, elbowing each other in a scrum for a picture everyone's going to get anyway.

Much better kept away from 1st flights, I don't doubt nowadays some idiot would get past the barriers & on or near the runway for a scoop...possibly not the one he had in mind, straight into an intake !

[forget]

For once, Barry, I agree with you.

Ooooh. First name terms now. :eek: What a bunch of posers. :mad:

Where did I hear this - - if the Wright brothers could have seen this they'd have stuck with bicycles.

[G-KEST]

forget -

You can go right off some folk, even relative neighbours in terms of our respective locations.

Perhaps I might comment - "Better a has been than a never wazzer....!!!"

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:cool:

PS - Having looked at your company website I wish you every possible success in what would be a significant safety innovation for large aircraft. Are you close to getting the system adopted in the UK and abroad?
I have always been an advocate for visual distance to go markers at general aviation airfields as a means of reducing the large number of over-run accidents on takeoff or landing.

[forget]

I wish you every possible success ............

Hmm. Thank you for that. Rather taken some of the wind out of my stroppy sails, but not all. Ever considered a latter career in the Foreign Office. :)

[G-KEST]

forget -

Thought it might.................... and no............!!!!!!!!! Retirement suits me just fine even if the level of finance leaves a bit to be desired.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:ok:

[airsound]

(the press are).....Much better kept away from 1st flights, I don't doubt nowadays some idiot would get past the barriers & on or near the runway for a scoop...
Couldn't disagree more, Double Zero. On a couple of grounds.

First of all, XH-558 is as near as you can get to public property, and the public deserves to know all about the important stages in her new life. And what could be more important than her ‘maiden’ flight. I agree that it will be very difficult to make this into a satisfactory public occasion - probably impossible, for all the reasons already discussed. But I believe the media in all its grubby glory should be there, particularly the broadcast media. Their presence can be satisfactorily controlled.

That leads me onto my second ground. I was extremely privileged to be present at the maiden flight of the Airbus A-380 at Toulouse - and it was an absolute (and well deserved) PR triumph for Airbus. There were about 1500 of us reptiles from all over the world there - but Airbus had laid on absolutely everything we could need, and the overall feeling, even amogst the most hard-bitten cynics (what, cynics amongst HM meeja, I hear you cry - shurely not) - the overall feeling was one of friendly disposition towards Airbus on what was perhaps their biggest day ever. The massive coverage reflected that. And I have to tell you that when those 22 wheels lifted off the Toulouse runway right in front of us, the applause (from journos, remember) drowned out the engine noise. It was a genuinely teary moment, and I was immensely glad to be there.

It will be similar when XH-558’s eighteen wheels lift off - though I doubt if any amount of applause will drown out the Olympuses. And the impact on us, the Vulcan-owning public, through tv coverage, will be immense.

Of course, there is a problem, because it’s almost impossible to give any reasonable notice of when it will actually happen. But the way Airbus got round that was to give about a month’s notice of a 4 or 5 day period when it was most likely, then, if I remember rightly, about 48 hrs’ notice of a much firmer date, which turned out to be right.

Fingers remain crossed....

airsound

Edited to correct airsound's lack of progress in wheel-counting

[Ramshornvortex]

It will be more successful all round if all 18 wheels lift off, surely?

[airsound]

Oops, sorry - forgot to count the pairs on the main bogeys.

Hangs head in shame:(

airsound

[Winco]

Well, I'm saddened that the majority on here feel that the aircrafts first flight should be kept as secret as possible, infact I'm quite annoyed by it.

As someone who has, over the years, donated generously to this cause, I feel somewhat betrayed that you will try to actively keep me and a great many other supporters from witnessing what we have all been striving to achieve. It is shameful to be frank.

I hope that there is now sufficient money left in the pot to finish this off, because I regret that I will think twice the next time they come round with the begging bowl (again!)

The Winco

ps, G-KEST, can you confirm that this air test will be regarded by the CAA as an 'air display' please? Thank you.

[The Swinging Monkey]

So let me get this right: it will be ok for all the gash 'hangers on' to be there, but not the enthusiasts or joe public eh?

No-doubt the invites will go out to a load of ex Vulcan people, probably ex RAF Airships who once 'saw a Vulcan in the 50's', maybe even get the CAS to say a few nice words when it lands. A handful of VIPs and of course local dignatries, the BBC and ITV will all be invited. Lets not forget SKY TV of course and any other media group - Key Publishing will undoubdebly be there as will Ian Allan group etc. I should think that the friends and family of all the aircrew and groundcrew will be there, together with the 'support staff' not to mention representatives from BAe, Marshalls et al.

Now, have I forgotten anyone? Oh yes I have, the great British public. The very people who have stumped up the vast majority of the money for this project. But they're not invited or even 'allowed' to be there are they? Is that right? Assuming that is the case, you should be ashamed Brunters.

This aircraft now belongs to us all - you, me and every other Brit. It dosn't belong to Plemming, Walton or anyone else, it belongs to the nation and you would do well to remember that when you try to exclude us from enjoying what we have paid for!

The excuse that this first test flight will be an 'air display' and is therefore not allowed by the CAA is utter nonesence. It smacks of being a convenient 'excuse' for a chosen few in this 'club' to say that they were at the first flight of '558, and the rest of us were not! Shameful.

TSM

[forget]

Brakes! Let’s look at where this discussion started.

Dr Pleming et al would very much like to host a private little party to launch ‘their’ aircraft.

His wacky attempt to exclude the great unwashed from the event went thus –

VTS club members and friends (over 22,000 individual records) who would wish to attend would render the first test flight impossible, because it would legally become a display.

Putting aside the notion that the benefactor of millions of £ of public money obviously views his contributors as exceedingly dim, just how does Dr Pleming intend to keep this event secret? It’s not possible.

The unwashed will most definitely turn up, invited or not, but don't expect canapes and a brolly. In reality, I don’t think anything has changed at all. Apart, perhaps, from the benefactors feeling a little peeved.

[rafmatt]

At the risk of sounding like a villian.

I'd love to see the Vulcan fly again and it will. BUT i think the money raised to get it flying could have been spent on other more worthwhile things such as cancer research, so on and so on.

I would also like to ask how much a year its going to need to keep her flying.

looking at aircraft like Sally B and other wartime aircraft that struggle to get funds enough to run all year round. Which is peanuts compared to what the Vulcan is going to cost.

and before you all jump on me for my grammer Don't i know its crap no need to remind me.

[Al R]

It could be you have a point Matt, but 558 represents something once great and our stance in the Cold war, and the men and women who watched out for us. I agree that cancer research funding should be higher, but lets scrape that extra from elsewhere.

Say hi to The Kimberley for me.

[G-KEST]

The Winco asks -
"G-KEST, can you confirm that this air test will be regarded by the CAA as an 'air display' please? Thank you."

No of course I cannot, only the CAA does the regarding and, ultimately, only the courts will decide.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:rolleyes:

[rafmatt]

I agree it does stand for what us armed forces do/done.
But remember there are more easier ways of reminding people of what we do/done for the nation.

perhaps putting the money toward those who are injured in them wars would be far more useful.

I think Falklands/Iraq/Afgan vetrens would be more pleased that money raised can go towards treatment for the men and women who are injured in these wars protecting our intrests.

I would love to see the Vulcan fly but at the cost she has incurred id rather see the money spent somewhere else.

every time i see the web page its asking for another 30 grand or what have you. But i think to myself 30 grand would go a long way for people who have had the limbs blown off in the Falklands/Iraq/Afgan. Or for family support for those husbands/wifes/children who have lost there loved ones

But that is my opinion.
so don't all jump on me at once

oh yeah i say bring back the Royal tournament
something to feel proud about.

the kimberleys good but havn't been there for a while though

rafmatt:=

[forget]

With all those people it sounds like it will be a... display....

Not if they are not paying ................. apparently.

[Winco]

G-KEST

I have to say that I am confused by your comments Sir.
In the begining, you agree that this air test is a flying display and go on state:

'A flying display is defined in the ANO as "any flying activity deliberately performed for the purposes of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public".'

Which is quite correct. Then you quote article 80 and state:

'Article 80 of the ANO applies to any flying event where it is advertised and open to the public. It does not apply to aircraft at such an event that are landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. I doubt if any court would find this first test flight to be normal aviation practice'

Which again, is correct of course. But when I ask you to confirm that the CAA will regard this air test as an air display, you state:

'No of course I cannot, only the CAA does the regarding and, ultimately, only the courts will decide.'

So may I ask you for your own opiniion then? Do you consider an air test (this air test) to be a flying display? Because every pilot I have spoken to does not. As you will know, an air display requires months of planning, organisation and an immense amount of work behind the scenes. An air test does not. The fact that several thousand people may well come to see the aircraft depart and land, DOES NOT constitute an air display. Not only that, it implies that the crew will have already received 'display authorisation' from the CAA. I'm not sure how that is possible unless the aircraft has already flown, and the display have been rehersed and performed infron of the relevany authorities.


That being so, I think it would have been more honest of Plemming (and others) to just say 'we would prefer not to have any spectators at the first flight' instead of publishing a whole load of tosh about it being illegal as per the CAA?

Maybe Dr Plemming would like to comment? or anyone from Bruntingthorpe?

[G-KEST]

Article 80 does not apply to a flying display which is private event, although it might have been advertised, as long as those present are there by invitation only. It must not be open to the general public, whether paying or not. This was made clear a zillion posts ago.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:ugh:

PS - Winco said -
"That being so, I think it would have been more honest of Plemming (and others) to just say 'we would prefer not to have any spectators at the first flight' "

To quote that memorable fictitious Minister - "you may well say that, however I could not possibly comment.....!!!"

[BEagle]

Dry your eyes, wanco.

It'll happen when it happens.

Endex.

[airsound]

Trapper, me old....

Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but whenever we get near to some significant event in the tortured life of XH-558, the grumpitude quotient seems to peak in the likes of The Winco and The Swinging Monkey. It’s kind of irritating, but I guess not terminal.

Ho hum

airsound.

PS How’s your Russian friend reacting to the imminent relaunching of the World’s Greatest Nuclear Bomber? No panic, I trust.

PPS. Winco, old bean, do you think you could do Dr Pleming the courtesy of spelling his name right?

[G-KEST]

airsound -
You know my feelings on the need for the media to be there, Essential invited guests inevitable. Project personnel vital. General public totally unnecessary and a huge distraction with possible health and safety issues.

This issue is guaranteed to provoke sincerely held views forcefully expressed on all aspects. It is like a dormant volcano - just waiting for a prod..........!!!!

My distant cousin, Colonel Ivor Bolokov, SovAF(retired) is not exactly quaking in his snow tipped flying boots at the prospect of this mighty piece of BRITISH engineering being resurrected. Despite his surreptitious efforts with a succession of corroding Bears, Bisons, Badgers and Blinders to do the same thing. They have all come to naught. This due to the absence of any Russian Federation equivalent of the National Lottery Heritage Fund. His last epistle was of the opinion that VTTS could not afford the Avtur needed to get XH558 more than 250km from base so Moscow was safe pro-tem.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:rolleyes:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb105/Skybolt_photo/IBphoto260904.jpg

[Double Zero]

Well, 'forget' & 'airsound' we'll have to agree to disagree...

The RNLI are REALLY public funded, but I don't reckon every lifeboat belongs to me or should invite me to every launch, despite my massive £4.00 a month.

As for the Vulcan, unless they've got invisibilty paint from the Americans, and fitted better than Halfords silencers on the jetpipes, this seems unlikely to go without notice - so the worthy public will probably get their fiver's worth of news, a fraction before the Vulcan To The Sky lot tell them anyway...

Airsound, you make a great pitch for the press which is completely opposite to all my dealings with them / you...if the Airbus had suffered a slight glitch and been delayed a day or two, and you'd been put up in a 'less than perfect' hotel in the meantime, I wonder how your feeling may have been altered ?!

As for someone mentioning " better a has been than a never wazza " I don't know who that was directed at, but the poster seems a plank & I'm very proud of my involvement with British military aircraft development, which went beyond taking happy-snaps...http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

DZ

[moogless]

One has to wonder if they have tied themselveds in such a financial knot with tv rights etc,that they are contracually obliged to allow only certain "guests" to the test flight.Such as those whose companies have made a vast contribution or individuals who are fortunate enough to be able to donate a substantial amount,or,tv production companies who paid above the odds for the rights to cover the test.I understand that money is a VERY important thing for a project such as this,but many of us have done what we can with the little cash we can spare and a great many helped involuntary via the lottery funding."Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is a phrase that seems to ring true here.I think like so many things,the corporate guest is the most important,not those who remember seeing these glorious machines in their heyday and want to witness that,maybe just once more.I can appreciate this may sound daft,but I follow Formula 1 and the same disease has spread through that sport.

[flipflopman RB199]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that The Winco and The Swinging Monkey seem almost unnaturally similar, in both post content and tone?

Add that to the fact that The Winco is from 'Geordie Land' and The Swinging Monkey is a reference to Hartlepool, where a monkey was hung on suspiscion of being a French spy?

Hmmmmm.

Posting one after the other too. Have a look through their posts, you too may find a spooky similarity.


Flipflopman

[Double Zero]

I really don't think there's anything sinister re. corporate types getting preferential treatment ( I am not involved with the Vulcan project ) - just common sense that with a very complicated aircraft on a 1st flight which may be delayed for a minute or a month for technical or political reasons, it would only bring bad publicity to have people stand around & nothing to happen.

A gang hanging around expectantly might put undesirable pressure on the ground & air crew too...

[moogless]

A good point and one I hadn't considered,do you think the 'guests' will get a refund excluding wine and snacks used?If no go?If there is any chance of failiure,then there should be NO ONE invited except those who NEED to be there.Then,once we can be assured that nothing will go wrong,'ping!!!!' we can all be there.Much fundraising is all it is.I'm sure many who will be there couldn't give a stuff about 558.I will be at the perimiter fence,if I find out when the date is.I've waited too long for this.

[Roadster280]

Flip-flop - I've no connection with any of this, but having known a few (and mackams) I severely doubt that any monkey-hanger would have anything whatsoever to do with Toon-town. And vice-versa.

[moogless]

I don't really care much now to be honest.After all our ramblings what will be,will be.The fact of the matter is that the MOD should never have retired her in the first place.Also I saw someone,I beleive an ex serviceman complaining that VTS every week asks for more funding and that maybe that funding would be better spent on the injured vets of Falklands/Iraq/Afghan campains.Quite right,it would be better spent and,I'm sure all of us have and do give generously to help all of these folk.But the fact remains,there will always be somebody more worthy/deserving of cash.In an Ideal world there would be enough for everybody,but there isn't and it should be the Government who should look after injured veterans,they shouldn't have to rely on charity,after all,our taxes paid for them to be sent out to get their injuries,our taxes should pay to make it right.But don't think all veterans deserve special treatment.You took the job on,you pays the price.No different to anybody else.No sh*t no glory.

[Double Zero]

I understand what you're getting at but maybe the veterans was a poor subject to pick !

I completely agree that when I first saw the hassle over the Ashtead house for the injured servicemen's families to stay in, I was struck by 2 thoughts ;

Why is this left to a charity to provide, what sort of Governments have we ?

And of course, "come the glorious day " ( C; Douglas Adams ) all the objectors should be available for target practice...

[iank]

Quote:

"Moogless...

In an Ideal world there would be enough for everybody,but there isn't and it should be the Government who should look after injured veterans,they shouldn't have to rely on charity,after all,our taxes paid for them to be sent out to get their injuries,our taxes should pay to make it right." (end)

:D

Hear Hear - as a taxpayer, I never wanted UK servicemen/women to be 'abandoned' to charity for their aftercare. I'm here now writing this because of the contribution they made to make making us safe (and topically - safe from the flood waters) - a priceless and long-standing debt for us all.

Apologies for the thread drift - but you do strike a chord with me.

[splitbrain]

A good point and one I hadn't considered,do you think the 'guests' will get a refund excluding wine and snacks used?If no go?If there is any chance of failiure,then there should be NO ONE invited except those who NEED to be there.

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. What are the chances of XH558 not actually taking to the sky on the announced day? Pretty high I'd suggest, bearing in mind the extent of the restoration, the complexity of the old bird and the pressure on the captain to get it right - he'll probably abort if he has any doubts over any of the aircraft's system.
Perhaps Dr Plemming is simply pre-empting the embarassment that would result in the national media reporting a 'no go', followed by another and perhaps another?

[MrBernoulli]

Almost a year ago I wrote the following on the Vulcan to the Sky, The End? thread:

"I think this Vulcan thing will end in tears. Aircraft like this are just too big, expensive and difficult to run outside of their original military environments.

Before the easliy-excited amongst you raise your blood pressure to dangerous levels I will add that I am a professional aviator, former military with time on a V-type. The Vulcan was a great airshow draw and it would be great if it could perform again. However, I really don't believe it is a viable project. You have to get over it."

I still stand by this .................

[forget]

Suggest you stand by for incoming :hmm:

[BEagle]

But you didn't make quite such a bold statement as Tombstone did!

He at least had the courage of his convictions - as a forthcoming video will doubtless prove!

For the latest engineering report, see http://www.tvoc.co.uk/engineering.asp

[MrBernoulli]

Sorry Beags, but I believe that ultimately the project will falter. No offence intended, that is just my strong conviction. It is not the sort of aircraft that a group of well-intended but resource-lean folk can keep airworthy. And that is before the CAA get involved. IMO.

[BEagle]

The CAA have been involved - and totally on-side - since Day One. Hence the process leading to Permit issue is completely in line with the Authority's requirements.

This is not a gang of well-meaning enthusiasts patching up and old aeroplane to get it flying again - the Vulcan is receiving a total restoration to modern day requirements under the engineering management of Marshall Aerospace.

About the only significant threat to the programme is from the purveyors of doom who have little idea of the whole project.

[Winco]

flipflopman

I can see why you have put myself and TSM in the same mould, but just because we share similar views clearly doesn't mean we are one and the same!

airsound, you are so pro Dr Pleming, you could very well be him, but I would't dream to suggest it!

This latest forum is not about 'doom and gloom' BEagle - far from it. It appears that things are progressing well and test flights are now at the planning stage, and I am delighted at that. And you are right, it will happen when it happens.

My problem is that now all of these people have given so much of their hard-earned cash to the project, you want to actively discourage them from coming to see it on its' first launch. That's simply not fair is it? I just think it will cause a great deal of ill-feeling with the public.

G-KEST - looking at your profile, callsign and location, you could well be mistaken for someone who has (had) close connections with the CAA? That being the case, instead of being rude about my points and questions, why not try to address them and answer them in a reasonable fasion that befits your position Sir? (I am correct in my CAA connections am I not?)

The Winco

The Winco

[G-KEST]

The Winco -

I had 14 years with the CAA until retirement in 1998 dealing with the operational regulation of private, sporting and recreational aviation. This included the UK's vibrant airshow scene in all its aspects.

I have been actively involved with air displays as a pilot since 1955 and this continues to the present day.

I think if you look back through my posts you will find the answers to your points have already been made. My comments are, of course, personal ones.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:ugh:

[Shaft109]

Just curious, why is '558 not in gloss white? Surely more relevant to the cold war theme?

[flipflopman RB199]

££££££££ :ok:


Flipflopman

[Shaft109]

The cost in paint wouldn't be much different (lots of one colour, as opposed to green grey,) and as the surface would have to be primed anyway the camouflage scheme would be lost so it wouldn't show what was underneath.

[flipflopman RB199]

But there would still be the cost of having the paint stripped, and then professionally re-applied, the cost of the paint itself, flying control removal, rebalance etc....

XH558 is not being repainted in the camo colours she currently wears, she is simply being 'touched up' in the areas that have had repairs carried out on them.

This is all money that TVOC doesn't have at the minute, as every spare penny is being spent on actually getting her airworthy at present. Hopefully it will be something that is looked at in a few years time, but certainly not in the immediate future.


Flipflopman

[Always a Sapper]

Desert Pink....:confused:

Pull the lads out of the sandpit, Load her up with her Original Weapon Load, a fun bus or two on route for tanking purposes and lets see if the things REALLY WORK....:E



ok... ok.... I know, hat, coat... door....

[Flying Signman]

Hi All,

First post here although I have been a lurker for many months.

I have been a supporter of the Vulcan return to flight both in spirit and in monetry terms. Although I would very much like to see her fly soon, I have no great desire to be there at the trial flight.

Like perhaps many others, I keep close tabs on the very informative website, which has updates every week generally and live pictures of the current situation.

Once she is on the display circuit, I will see her at the first opportunity.

Meantime, cut the team a bit of slack and give them our full support. It saddens me to see some doom mongers amongst you.

If you want to ensure it gets in the air quicker (and she will) put some money in the coffers or hold your words - others will do it and ensure the project is completed!

Regards,
Ian.

[rafmatt]

mate doing a full repaint would cost shed loads

[Shaft109]

I know I spray cars. I thought they were going to give it a full lick of paint anyway, so the colour wouldn't make much difference. But yes a touch up job is more appropriate.

Is the paint solid colour? (I'm assuming it's not basecoat and clear then?)

[stickmonkeytamer]

Isn't all of the white paint that the country has not already bought for Gordon Brown's trips around the bazaars? All that black coal is not a pretty sight...

SMT

[flipflopman RB199]

Yes, it is a solid colour.

It is a standard 2 pack Akzo Nobel Aviox finish paint.

Here are a couple of pics of the canopy being resprayed. One of the larger areas receiving attention.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m12/FlipflopmanRB199/144-canopy20prime.jpg http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m12/FlipflopmanRB199/144-canopy20paint.jpg

Flipflopman

[Shaft109]

What sort of surface finish standard do you aim for? obviously on a car minute imperfections stand out like the balls on a bulldog but impossible to achieve over an plane the size of a Vulcan?

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC the original white was matt not gloss. The gloss white underside came with the second stage camouflage.

After the white there was a quick over paint on top for the grey/green. This naturally did not weather well and aircraft were then returned from CWP in a polueurethane finish. This, we were told, was applied by roller and added some 4000lb to the AUW.

[airsound]

The Winco

If you were to take just a few minutes out of your obviously extremely busy pontificating day, you would see very clearly from my public profile and Dr Pleming’s biog details on the VTTS website that we could not possibly be the same person. In fact, neither of us makes much effort to conceal our identities, unlike you and many others on these forums. We’re perfectly prepared to stand up and be counted, and don’t wish to hide behind pseudonyms. G-KEST is similarly readily identifiable to anyone with any knowledge of display flying and historic aircraft, and the regulation of both. I’m led to the sad conclusion that you don’t know much about those subjects.

As for my support of Dr Pleming - I have to repeat, wearily, all the things I said to you in June last year. At that time, you may recall, you and The Swinging Monkey, et al, were mega-doomsaying about the whole project (as is your wont), and then you shut up for a while when we managed to get big media coverage which partly resulted in a last-minute reprieve after Jack Hayward and others fronted up some desperately-needed big funds. I have to wonder if that success in what was, at the time, a real touch-and-go situation, didn’t actually disappoint you and your sad cohort.

As I told you at the time - I support Dr Pleming because he is an exceptionally able, not to say courageous, businessman and entrepreneur. The Vulcan project is very lucky to have him at the head of a highly talented team - I continue to maintain that, without him, Vulcan would be nowhere near as close as it is to getting To The Sky. Yes he’s also a friend of mine, but if you knew me better, you might also know that I would not be offering this kind of public professional support if I didn’t thoroughly approve of what he’s doing.

Any chance of your ceasing fire on your constant sniping while we await what I expect to be the first engine runs, within days, and the first flight, within weeks? (Merely a personal prognosis, of course)

airsound

[Winco]

airsound,
Your support for Dr Pleming is not in question Sir, but I really do wish you would try to read what I said. It was all to do with an air test being defined as (according to the CAA says Dr Pleming) as an air display, you may recall.

To stop any further friction amongst us all, I shall speak to a contact I have in the CAA on Tuesday and get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak, as to whether they are treating the air test as an air display.

If they have not classed it as a display, will you be happy for me to post that on here or do you think it will be regarded as having another 'snipe' at the project?

[Blacksheep]

This is not a gang of well-meaning enthusiasts patching up an old aeroplane to get it flying again
Despite my own jaundiced Maintenance Manager's view of the costs of heavy maintenance, aging aircraft programmes and supply chain difficulties, my own "doom and gloom" view isn't simply based upon the cost of getting the aircraft airworthy. A grant from the lottery and a very generous gift from a wealthy benefactor have kept the restoration moving. But what next?

Having got it flying again, keeping it airborne becomes a straight forward commercial business. People must pay money to see it fly.

Is the potential market large enough to support such a business? What did the market research say? As "due diligence" requires, market research was presumably done prior to signing the contracts with Marshalls and commencing work, but so far we have heard only about the engineering side of things and nothing on the project's long term viability. The Vulcan is certainly an impressive sight and sound in the air, but is it so impressive that sufficient air show organisers will pay a premium rate to cover the cost of having it fly at their show? I doubt if either the BBMF or the Red Arrows could continue in operation if they weren't RAF units and were obliged to earn sufficient income to directly and fully support their operations.

About the only significant threat to the programme is from the purveyors of doom who have little idea of the whole project.
Enthusiastic supporters and wealthy benefactors have dug deep into their pockets to fund the restoration. Will they also be expected to keep XH558 airborne too? If so, it isn't a professionally administered commercial organization at all, but simply a "gang of well-meaning enthusiasts" getting people to dig into their pockets to realize their own personal dream.

I'll dig into my pocket and even my own spare time to support a worthy restoration project, but all my cash and effort is reserved for such deserving organizations as the De Havilland Heritage Trust. (As a Hatfield council tax payer I'm biased of course) I'm perfectly happy to see a Wooden Wonder in perfect condition and even capable of being retored to airworthiness, but its far too valuable an historical artifact to risk putting it into the air.

[Champagne Anyone?]

Hi, I never knew my initial post would attract so much attention...


However, whilst on holiday two weeks ago, in a rather hot place without rain, I had a conversation with a chap who was connected with the project, in a roundabout way.


I cannot give his name but he told me prior to an evening meal that it was the trusts intention, (and had been all along) to get the aircraft airworthy, do a few air shows in the UK, (less than ten) and then sell XH558 to the Americans who had shown a great interest in the project and who had actually made a very substantial offer to purchase the aircraft some months ago.


They wanted to fly her on the American circuit and didn't have the bureaucracy which was plaguing the project over here.


All I hope is that his info is NOT correct otherwise we have been completely sold out.


I have no reason to disbelieve the fellow in question. He sounded very credible indeed and he did know some of the ladies and gents I know who work on the project; and as their names are not in the public domain, this makes me think he might just be in possession of a snippet of information we are not supposed to hear.


Would the trust do this to its supporters?? I would like to think not but personally, I just don’t know anymore.

[RileyDove]

The Vulcan is budgeted to cost £1.2 million per year to operate which I guess will be consumed by salaries and the direct operating costs i.e fuel and insurance. She was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund as a national asset.
Any attempt to remove her from U.K airspace and sell her abroad would be contested in the courts.

[Blacksheep]

The Vulcan is budgeted to cost £1.2 million per year to operate... ...consumed by salaries and the direct operating costs i.e fuel and insurance.Just admin and direct operating costs to pay for. Left out in the open between airshow appearances on a rent free airfield. No maintenance, no defective rotables to be sent back to the MROs for repair. Sounds good. The overhaul and modifications have removed all of the old girl's reliability problems then.

But to be a bit more realistic...
£100,000 a month.

Hmm. Lets see, just a few items off the top of my head, there's:
Hangarage and office accommodation;
Management - (how many?);
Crew Chief and presumably at least a couple of salaried technicians over and above the "gang of enthusiastic amateurs";
Retainer fees for Marshalls (to cover their cost of keeping resouces available);
Office staff to deal with bookings, public relations & press, creditors, debtors, transport, supplies & stores, planning, inspection and general administration etc.;
Rotables - something or other's bound to go U/s on every flight. The Vulcan was never a reliable old bird by any means, even by 1960's standards;
Consumables - oil; grease; light bulbs; hydraulic fluid; tyres etc.
Then come direct costs like fuel, insurance, ATC. The owner of the airfield from which it operates will naturally waive all landing fees etc.
The crew will of course happily pay handsomely for the privilege of being allowed to fly her.
Its on a Permit instead of a C of A so there'll be no need for daily or 'A' checks... and no need for a low utilisation maintenance programme or a calendar date dependent 'C' check, say, every three years.


Display season is about six months. So we need to clear £5,000 a week during the season. Yeah, 100 grand a month ought to just about cover it, but damn that's tight. No room for error there, like bad weather, "Crew-in" snags or - horror of horrors - cancellations due to unserviceability. :hmm:


[Thinks: I wonder if they want a Maintenance Services Manager? I could be available for a bargain price of just £70,000 - thats less than £6,000 a month and good value for high quality.]

[Pontius Navigator]

Blacksheep,

I would be interested to see the business plan. Where is this revenue stream coming from?

Suppose the main air shows take about £1.2m each (Waddo 100000 * £12) then how much of that would be available to buy in the Vulcan?

How many 'en passant' appearances will it make? BBMF make a huge number of free passes en route to their displays.

When the RAF wanted to set up the Concorde/Red Arrows shot I believe the fee was something in the order of £100k. What would the Mall flypast have cost and who would have paid? Probably the MOD but they can't pay more than once of twice.

[ORAC]

They're looking for a commercial sponsor. Not sure there is a great interest at the moment, but it might pick up after the first flight. And £1.2m isn't a great amount in sponsorship/advertising terms, especially if you write it off against tax.

Hell, Emirates paid £100m to get their name on the new Arsenal stadium and shirts for 8 years, and it costs about £4m a year to get your name on the sidepod of an F1 car.

[Hipper]

That's it. ORAC has the answer to both sponsorship and painting.

It could be sponsored by DAZ (or whoever does the whitest white these days) and painted white. They could use it in television adverts and so get more publicity for the project.

Genius!

[gareth herts]

I think I might be correct in saying that due to Lottery regs no sponsor will be able to 'brand' the life out of the jet - which may of course dissuade some potential investors.

The goodwill, merchandising, corporate and hospitality potential is massive though for any sponsor.

I've worked in sponsorship for a good few years now and, as has already been mentioned, the investment required to buy these rights is not great compared to some avenues that could be pursued ie football, motorsport, TV sponsorship etc.

I think the difficult bit might prove to be in attracting a 'long-term' sponsor. The team must be looking for a 3-4 year investment and that could be scary for potential sponsors with a "product" like the Vulcan.

Hopefully this won't happen but it would be a great shame to see her grounded after 12 months if the money dried up.

[nacluv]

Noticed tonight on the webcams that 558 is looking remarkably complete - standing on her own 3 feet and the nose is now in place. Oh, and the seats and canopy are being fitted right now by the look of it.

Ground runs starting this week? (Fingers crossed!!)

[Blacksheep]

They're looking for a commercial sponsor. Two words: Due Diligence.

It isn't rocket science, its standard practice and Due Diligence should have been performed before the project began and the first panel was removed.

[Mike51]

"Roll up, roll up, sponsor our nuclear bomber with a huge carbon footprint. Oh, and by the way, if you pay us enough, we MIGHT just let you put a 6-inch sticker with your corporate logo on it on some unobtrusive place like the crew access door."

[ORAC]

Well they were still looking for one last Xmas...

BBC: Vulcan bomber team seeks sponsor (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6219251.stm)

[Navy_Adversary]

"Bomber engines to roar"
that is a headline in tonights Leicester Mercury.
It states that engine runs are to commence on Thursday, I'll ring up my mate and tell him to park his Burger van at Gilmorton playing field.:)

BOMBER ENGINES TO ROAR
3 readers have commented on this story. Click here to read their views.
BY TIM HEALY

10:30 - 01 August 2007



The mighty roar of four Rolls-Royce Olympus engines will be heard in south Leicestershire tomorrow as vital tests of a restored Cold War bomber begin.

Britain's aviation history will be one step nearer being reborn as the final leg of a campaign for a Vulcan to fly once more gets under way.

If things go to plan, the mighty delta wing bomber will take to the skies over Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground Aerodrome during August.



But it is not yet known when the aircraft, which has been part of a 13-year, £5.5 million restoration campaign will make its official flight debut at an airshow.

Dr Robert Pleming, Vulcan to the Sky Trust chief executive, is making every effort to minimise the impact of the sound it will be creating.

He said: "Engine testing is an exciting stage for us, but for those people who do not share our enthusiasm for the Vulcan, I can assure them that the engines will not be turned on in the early morning, and tests will be limited to those that are essential, and of the shortest duration practicable."

He said the Vulcan to the Sky team would be using geographical features and wind direction to minimise the impact of the noise on surrounding villages

He said: "The Vulcan to the Sky project has always been proud to call Bruntingthorpe, and Leicestershire, its home and we are making every effort to be a considerate neighbour, and hope that once Vulcan XH558 is flying again, the local community will be proud of our achievements."

Project co-ordinator Rusty Drewett said: "As part of the process to certify the aircraft as fit to fly, all of the engines will be throttled up and tested, each producing eight-and-a-half tons of thrust."

She said that it was anticipated that the aircraft should take to the sky during August.

She said: "We will not be publicising the first test flights because we do not want people flocking to the area."

She said it was hoped that the aircraft should make at least one airshow flight before the end of the season.

The leader of Harborough District Council Coun Graham Hart welcomed the start of engine testing.

Mr Hart, who represents the villages around the airfield, said: "The local parishes are aware of the noise the engines will bring. But they will not mind because it is helping the revive of a piece of aviation history.

"The team behind the restoration have also been very co-operative and have held briefing sessions with local communities and have taken their views on board."

For information on the Vulcan to the Sky project, or details of test timings, call the office on 0116 247 8145.

[dkh51250]

Many moons ago there was a letter posted in the Lincolnshire Echo wanting to know if there was any truth in the story that there was a turntable at Waddo. Its purpose according to the lady, was to ensure that all the surrounding villages received an equal amount of noise during ground running.

[G-KEST]

"Many moons ago there was a letter posted in the Lincolnshire Echo wanting to know if there was any truth in the story that there was a turntable at Waddo. Its purpose according to the lady, was to ensure that all the surrounding villages received an equal amount of noise during ground running."

Absolutely priceless. How PC can you be.

Living some 30 miles from Bruntingthorpe I should be able to hear it if the wind is right. At least it will be better than the din from Rockingham Speedway which is but 7 miles distant.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:)

[Wycombe]

Looking on the "Vulcams" today, looks like she is back up on jacks, cockpit roof and nose radome off.

[beardy]

Just a thought.

Would it not be more apt if this thread were placed in the Aviation history and nostalgia forum, or,shudder the thought, the spotters corner since the military forum is 'a forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here'?

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Call me crazy, but I might suggest that this ex-RAF nuclear bomber could be described as a piece of 'non-civilian' hardware, regardless of its current operators. The fact that many members of this forum have directly worked with the Vulcan in the past, many have put their hands in their pockets to support the project and virtually all keen to see her fly again, means that this forum seems to be a sensible place for the thread to reside.

[L Peacock]

nice to see there's still activity at this time in the evening

[flipflopman RB199]

It has been this way for many months now LP :ok:

The aircraft has now been up on jacks for around a month. This was to allow us to fully complete the functional testing aspects of various systems, such as the U/C retraction and Blow-down tests, and the like. The Ejection seats were fitted on Tuesday, and the rear crew seats were fitted today, with the canopy due to be fitted early next week, now that the cockpit is fully complete, along with the new avionics suite and layout.

Engine testing was indeed due to begin today, however, due to the fact that the long awaited PFCU motors have finally arrived, we have now chopped the schedule around, to allow us to complete the flying control set up, prior to ground running. This will then allow us to fully operate all aircraft systems on the ground runs, and test the electrical generation system out fully. The lack of PFCU motors was hampering us quite badly, however, now that they have arrived, we can hopefully make some of that time back.

The additional time in the hangar has also now allowed us to remove the radome, in order to let us to make some final adjustments to the mountings of the 790lb Nose Ballast. Upon weighing the aircraft, it was found that the CG was massively beyond the 'Aft Limit', so various avenues were explored to bring the CG back into limits. Part of this has been to increase the H2S ballast up to its maximum weight of 810lbs, so metal plates have been installed in the nose, where the H2S used to reside, which weigh 790lbs. The rest of the solution involves re-installing many of the heavier 'Black Boxes'. This serves a dual purpose, and also helps us raise the aircraft's AUW, which is quite considerably below the Minimum Allowable Weight for a Vulcan B2 at the moment!!

A final point, Rusty Drewett is the Administration Manager for the project, not, as stated in the article, the 'Project Co-ordinator'.

Hope this explains a few things. If this post appears a little rushed, IT IS!!! I had just typed a full reply, and upon submitting, lost the post in its entirety. Cue profanities, and a hastily submitted reply!!!!:p


Flipflopman

[greycoat]

Taken from the latest RAF Club Newsletter:

Dining Society Lunch – with Dr Robert Pleming MBCS CITP ARAeS
Monday 15th October - 12.00 for 12.30hrs - Lounge Suit
Our Guest Speaker on 15th October will be Dr Robert Pleming. Dr Pleming is the Chief Executive of the ‘Vulcan to the Skies’ project which is seeking to restore an Avro Vulcan to flying condition. He will explain the genesis of the project, its progress to date and plans for the future. It will also be a great chance to reminisce about the beautiful Vulcan aircraft!
£18.00 per Member/£20.00 per guest.

So if you want to get an answer from the man ....

[Squadgy]

From the AIS :
NAVW: Q)EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5229N00108W003
FROM 07/08/20 09:00 TO 07/09/07 15:00 J3816/07
D)AUG 20-24, 28-31, SEP 03-07 0900-1500
E)RESTRICTED AREA(TEMPORARY) FOR VULCAN TEST FLYING AT
BRUNTINGTHORPE. RESTRICTION OF FLYING REGULATIONS MADE UNDER ARTICLE
96 OF THE ANO 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552 201.135.9). NO
ACFT IS TO FLY WI AREA BOUNDED BY CIRCLE RAD 3NM CENTRED AT 522913N
0010750W EXCEPT ACFT FLYING WITH PERMISSION OF OPERATOR OF
BRUNTINGTHORPE AERODROME OR IN THE SERVICE OF THE LEICESTERSHIRE
POLICE. AUS 07-08-0518/3429/AS7
F)SFC G)3000FT AMSL

[G-KEST]

I think they will have quite a problem keeping below 3,000 feet amsl and within 3 NM of Bruntingthorpe with an aircraft like the Vulcan on flight test. Wonder if the RA(T) will be increased in size when they realise?

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:rolleyes:

[spekesoftly]

Promolgating the RA(T) to cover the whole flight test profile is hardly practical. Allowing the Vulcan to depart relatively unmolested by light aircraft and helos etc will be the main aim; thereafter it will probably disappear into the blue yonder.

[cornish-stormrider]

probably straight up
:E:E

[gareth herts]

Forgive my "potential" ignorance but isn't the 3m radius to keep other aircraft away - not to keep her in?

[c-bert]

Forgive my ignorance but is that Notam not valid from:

07/08/20 09:00 TO 07/09/07 15:00

is that not 2020 until 2007...? :confused:

[spekesoftly]

NOTAMs do dates "backwards":-

Year/Month/Day ;)

[BEagle]

Best you find some Vaseline sharpish, Tombstone!

Florist and video team are on hot standby!!

[forget]

Full kit available. NATO Stock No. 4581-49625-1554


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/rose.jpg

[Green Flash]

Will there be a NOTAM for Tombstones, ahem, 'display'?

[wonderboysteve]

There seems to be a large Vulcan-shaped space in the hanger, according to the webcams....

[iank]

It would seem that TVOC are making a 'contribution' to Tombstones performance - they've cleared some space in the Hangar to rehearse :)

http://www.offthecuff-lx.demon.co.uk/cancersupport/emptyhangar.jpg

[c-bert]

http://www.lutterworthmail.co.uk/news?articleid=3114410

Engine test due to start tomorrow. :ok:

[threeputt]

I hope Tombstone remembers to do his "flypast" in daylight hours.:ok:

For his sake I hope that it's not raining next week!

3P

[harrogate]

BBC Regions reporting tonight that the project is on hold, but not for technical reasons.

Anyone?

[Flipper_T_Rox]

I don't know about tomorrow, but the engines were running today. The aircraft looks wonderful and sounded likewise. It surely can't be long now . . .

http://www.shawnsanders.info/xh558_1.jpg
http://www.shawnsanders.info/xh558_2.jpg

http://www.shawnsanders.info/xh558_3.jpg

[G-KEST]

Sure looks purty - as our trans Atlantic cousins would say.

Just a thought. Why not paint the Vulcan day-glo yellow and then the horde of onlookers could wear camouflage clothing? After all better visibility increases the potential to avoid.

My bike is at the door..........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:D

[XL319]

Nice to see them finally doing flight tests just as the airshow season is finishing :E:{

[flipflopman RB199]

Actually old chap, it is indeed nice to see 'them' doing flight tests as the airshow season is finishing.

It's pretty bl00dy nice to see them doing flight tests, full stop, after 14 years. :ok:


Flipflopman

[BEagle]

XL319, you deserve a slap across the face with the soggy end of Tombstone's rose after he's done his performance with it inserted where the sun doesn't shine......

Good news concerning the engine runs - my spies tell me that things are now going extremely well. Which is terrific news - for everyone except Tombstone....:eek:

[XL319]

I will consider myself well and truly slapped :suspect:

There was a little sarcasim in my comment, nothing malicious :} The point I was making was that I am actually gutted that I won't be seeing them display this year :{

[clicker]

Navw: Q)egtt/qrtca/iv/bo/w/000/030/5229n00108w003
From 07/08/20 09:00 To 07/09/07 15:00 J3816/07
D)aug 20-24, 28-31, Sep 03-07 0900-1500
E)restricted Area (temporary) For Tombstone Rose Powered Engine Run. No Restriction Of Flying Regulations Made But No Acft Is To Fly Downwind Centred At 522913n 0010750w Except Acft Flying With Permission Of Pprune Or In The Service Of The Kew Gardens.
F)sfc G)sfc Amsl


:E

[G-KEST]

Poor old Tombstone. I am assured KY Jelly eases the passage but check for any thorns left on the stem.

Seriously though, I really wonder just how many airshow organisers are going to book the Vulcan if it is charged out at an economic rate? Once the initial novelty is over reality must set in. This despite the valiant efforts of the VTTS team, professional and volunteer.

As an airshow performer charging a modest sum to cover my legitimate costs it has been hard to get bookings for a couple of years. This possibly because my aerobatic displays are tame in comparison with some on the circuit but also because there are those for whom displays are an ego trip and can afford to do them for next to nothing.

Display organisers are finding it very hard to get sponsorship and costs are escalating at an exponential rate. The UK airshow industry is in a difficult position. But there, it always was and my involvement goes back over 50 years.

Comments appreciated, however if it is suggested that I pack up airshow flying after some 53 years then that is simply not acceptable. I enjoy it too much.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:confused:

[JFZ90]

G-KEST

Be interesting to see how the economics work out. I suspect they are banking on the fact that any airshow in the UK will not be complete without the Vulcan doing a display. Even though I do have some fears over the long term sustainment of the project for ££ reasons, I actually suspect they are bang on - no airshow worth its salt will want to be without the vulcan; the punters will be dissappointed without it.

I wonder if it will be able to display in Europe?

[Flipper_T_Rox]

There is an article in "The Vulcan Story" which was written by SL David Thomas, last and future display pilot of XH558, in which he writes:

"It's interesting to note that towards the end of the Vulcan's display career, one show organizer simply stated that they would pay whatever the necessary asking price was, because they just had to have the Vulcan at their show. It's an incredible display aircraft, as it's a unique design, and XH558 is the only one of its kind. It flies very slowly, it's very manoeurvrable, it's big, it's noisy, quite unmistakeable."

Hopefully airshow audiences attitudes won't have changed that much, and the Vulcan will still be in great demand for airshows.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I well remember Dave's fabulous displays and I am glad I will see them again.

I agree with DT that organisers will bust the bank to ensure that the Vulcan is on the list. And I wouldn't like to accept a bet that it won't be at F'boro next year either.

[Synthetic]

Does anyone know if there will be limitations imposed on XH558 for displays or will it be the full show that she used to do?

[Colonal Mustard]

Is`nt it Apt, the UK Govt will probably compulsory purchase the A/C for a quid once its done its flight test in order to combat the Bears that have just been restored by russia, looks like it may be on standby duties back at waddo with Blue Steel......Not at airshows as we hope.

You wait , just when you thought you`d retired the RAF will call up some 75 year old to command it as they wont have the experience otherwise...lol:}

[clicker]

I would imagine it will be very expensive. Hate to think what the insurance bill would be, given the hike in prices since she last flew.

Like PPrune Pop I can't wait to see her "on display" again.

[Blacksheep]

...towards the end of the Vulcan's display career, one show organizer simply stated that they would pay whatever the necessary asking price was, because they just had to have the Vulcan at their show.That may be true, but XH558 retired when the airshow business was at a zenith. Unfortunately, half the airshows that were in existence at that time have since gone to the wall and attendances at fee paying airshows are well down. Admittedly 800,000 people have just turned up for the Bournemouth freebie but that doesn't generate much in the way of direct revenue.

They're budgetted for 1.2 million a year don't forget, and given their history of budgetting shortfalls, we can't be sure they've got those sums right. Readers of "Aeroplane" will be aware of how tight the airshow business is getting - even across the Atlantic in the home of the CAF and Oshkosh.
.

[Wycombe]

From the Vulcams, it looks like she's outside again this afternoon....

[dagenham]

Perhaps they should put a rose in a bowl of ky on the crew steps every time she is wheeled out for testing:\

[The Rocket]

Having heard nothing on the subject for a while now, I'm just wondering whether Tombstone has got the minerals to actually put his money where his Ahem... mouth is!! :E

[Tombstone]

He does indeed have the minerals, the banter from the F3 girls for a no show would be unbearable.

Two things will happen the day after the vulcan flies:

1. I will post the video on here, via youtube.

2. 'Tombstone' will die & I will have to come up with another name for Pprune. It's never a clever thing allowing your boss to know who you are on here & I think he might just work out who I am the day after (V+1) XH558 rotates!:ooh:

Dear Santa,

please may I have a multiple engine surge on XH558 (prior to V panic) as an early Xmas. Pretty please. If it helps swing the decision, you can marry my sister.:E

No offence intended to the aircrew of 558 however, big boys rules, you know how it is!

[BEagle]

Sorry, Tombstone, but we demand independent evidence!

I will be quite happy to fly PrimeTime Joanna down to Marham to record the evidence for poster(ior)ity - perhaps as 'Bonus Material' on Vulcan Restoration DVD no.3?

To save your embarrassment, ask a rock ape or gym queen if you can borrow their gimp mask for the day!

Of course, if you were to hand over a cheque for £558 to the Vulcan to the Sky Fund, perhaps we could be persuaded to accept that as an alternative?

Would we, chaps/chapesses/chap-others?

[SFCC]

Independant adjudication not required thankyou.
However......back to the original (pre anal flower) discussion....when can we expect to hear that the device has flown?

[Beeayeate]

Would we, chaps/chapesses/chap-others?

I think not BEagle, passing over a cheque is not the gentleman's way out in this case.

The challenge was issued therefore the rose must fly, and be seen to fly. Surely nothing else is acceptable. (Although judicious use of duct tape may be in order.)





:E

[Goer Round]

Perhaps Tombstone's "display" ought to be the distance that 558 takes for it to become airborne on its first take off run? :} Marham's main should be long enough!

[Fugazi1000]

Can anybody confirm if the hangar currently housing XH558 at Bruntingthorpe is the big one near to where the Super Guppy is parked?

Also - When she does take off, will it be from Runway 28 or will it be trundled all the way to 08?

[iank]

Having gently ribbed Tombstone on this since he first posted the fateful words here - that he is prepared to do it and to post evidence (or have it recorded) should satisfy us.

He has to date, taken it all in good humour and to suggest a cheque might be an alternative could only impugn his honour as one of Her Majesty's finest :rolleyes:

If memory serves (and to be honest it's late and I'm too lazy to go back through the postings) there was also an associated offer made to enhance the performance. If both were to occur - I would be happy to send a small donation to Children in Need or RAFBF as recognition of the event and of Tombstones promise.

Can we say any fairer than that I wonder?

I just hope first flight is in decent weather - :D;):ok:

[saracenman]

poor old tombstone - has no-one thought that rose insertion will be impossible unless his head has been extracted first!

i have been gently simmering over the months with some of the plop that has been voiced on here, so now it's my turn!

suggest removing all 4 olymupussies from 558 and replacing with the new-fangled "Doom-and-Gloom-Powered-Propulsion-Units" then she'll be up up and away in no time!

it does beg the question: just how many doom and gloom merchants (you know who you are!) will beat a path to the first airshow with a displaying vulcan? i hope they all stay away least they spoil the display for everyone, dragging their huge grey clouds with them over their heads! i suggest that CAA should hastily introduce new legislation stating that anyone presenting themselves at an airshow with a rose-stem protruding from their nether-regions should have their eardrums pierced and eyes poked out to prevent them from seeing or hearing 558 perform!

as far as "558 is public property so we should all be encouragd to flock to brunty to see our money in the air" goes:
1) i'd love to see the innermost workings of a nuclear submarine - it's partly mine so i should be able to climb all over it whenever i like, but those whitehall spoilsports say that i can't - national security or some such rubish,:=

2) i fancy spending a night or two in 10 downing street - looks very comfy and, after all it's partly mine, so why not?:confused:

3) my tax-disk money helps to keep the M1 open, so why can't i have a picnic in the middle lane whenever i like?

4) obviously the police couldn't arrest me for my unusual picnicing behaviour because i pay their salaries - it's up to me what i can be arrested for isn't it?

any kind of pattern beginning to emerge here??????????????????

conclusion:
when 558 takes off for the first time, TVOC/CAA/police/fire brigade etc etc should concentrate 100% on the flight - not having to worry about an ar$ehole on a step ladder (trying to insert a rose no doubt) holding up the traffic!

imagine if the unthinkable happened and non-brunty emergency services were urgently required on-airfield and were held up by the throng of well-meaning 'part shareholders'

TVOC face the possibility of countless hitches as it is - NOBODY need add to risks

as regards whether it would be classed as an "advertised public display", and the constant is it/isn't it merchants on this thread, perhaps the CAA are scratching their heads as well - "the rules don't cover this sort of thing guv, what d'ya reckon we should do?":ugh:

great british public - stay away! let's get her up and about first; that's what we ALL want!

go for it TVOC/VTTS et al:D

sm

spleen vented - blood pressure returning to safe levels - clenched fists slowly relaxing!:mad:

[G-KEST]

Saracenman,

An excellent post that deserves framing and hanging up on the wall of the VTTS hangar. Thank you sir.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:D

[adrian mole]

Saracen - I concur. Well said Sir... Let's just let the bird fly.

[Wader2]

It was announced on the radio today that the Vulcan will fly in the next 3 weeks. The media will be given 48 hours notice. It will taxy at 1030 to take off at 1100.

It seems, as said before, that the public will not be pre-warned nor invited on health and safety grounds.

So it should fly some time between 10 Sep and the end of the month.

A good thing we have a warm dry spell at the moment with English roses in fine bloom.:}

[gareth herts]

From BBC news:

Vulcan bomber to fly within weeks

An engineer in charge of restoring a Cold War bomber says it will fly within the next three weeks.

The Vulcan bomber, one of a fleet that played a vital role in the Falklands Conflict defeat of Argentina, has been under restoration for eight years.

Project Engineering Manager, Andrew Edmundson, said the team had had a few glitches with the engines of the XH558, but these had now been fixed.

The plane is based at Bruntingthorpe airfield in Leicestershire.

Mr Edmunson, said: "It's the largest, most complex return to flight project that has ever been attempted.

"You're taking a very large aeroplane and putting it under the regulatory requirements of a complex category. The aeroplane is not complex in design but by size... so it means we have to treat this as if it was a 737.

"Even though we're not carrying the passengers, the work on the aeroplane has to be of that standard."

He said the bomber's engines were in very good shape and would be tested on Thursday.

The plane will have to undergo extensive checks before it can be cleared by the Civil Aviation Authority.

[TheVulcan]

Can anyone help me? I would like to buy or borrow a Vulcan CG Slide Rule for a talk I am giving in LA to the Society of Experimental Test Pilots at the end of the month. replies to [email protected].

[old-timer]

Hey ! did anyone approach mr B of the big red V ?
The big red V supporting the classic mil' big V, GOOD CONNECTION -
Go for it Richard, YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU

bes twishes to all working on 558, terrifc effort all round which deserves
some BIG support & back up.

[Exrigger]

Yes, I did ask Mr B and a Mr S, one did not acknowledge and the other replied through a secretary that he is not into that sort of thing.

[bay17-20]

Vulcan

There is one on ebay should it meet your requirements

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Avro-Vulcan-B2-Fuel-C-G-Computer-26DG-11697_W0QQitemZ260157841526QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4783QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

should that not work ust type 260157841526 in the Ebay search box.

[old-timer]

sorry to hear no joy with those requests exrigger, would have been a good flying advert for them i'd have thought, onwards & upwards anyway, with or without them,

best wishes to all for the first flight

[BEagle]

Do remember that 'MrB' is in the aviation business - and any negativity resulting from sponsorship of an aviation-related project would reflect adversely on his core business. Idiotic journos would have leaped on the bandwagon, should 558's return to flight have been unsuccessful - and 'MrB' could hardly have been expected to accept such a risk.

But when 558 flies in the next few weeks (and Tombstone + rose keep their promise), potential sponsors may view the whole project in a new light. Particularly next year when no airshow organiser will be able to run a show without 558's appearance!

As for ba, word is that anyone showing interest in anything connected with aeroplanes or history is viewed as a potential risk to the bean counters who run the airline these days. But even 1% of the fine imposed after the recent price rigging scandal would have been better spent on 558.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tried Southend Air Museum for the slide rule? They kindly leant me the ODM.

[moggiee]

Also - When she does take off, will it be from Runway 28 or will it be trundled all the way to 08?
I suspect that wind direction will have a part to play in that decision!

[airsound]

Originally Posted by Fugazi1000
Also - When she does take off, will it be from Runway 28 or will it be trundled all the way to 08?
Agree with moggiee. however - erm - interesting runway that. Do you mean 10/28, or could it be 08/26?

On second thoughts, perhaps it's
06/24
http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi?id=UK70784&sch=Bruntingthorpe

airsound

[gareth herts]

SPECIAL HANGAR OPENING SAT 15 th & SUN16th SEPT.10.00 A.M TILL 4.00 PM.
11 September 2007 - TVOC

Unique chance to see engineering work on Vulcan bomber

This weekend, the Vulcan to the Sky Trust will be opening the doors of the Vulcan hangar to give the public the unique chance to see engineers at work on the aircraft. Those interested in seeing the Vulcan under its final examinations from the resident team of engineers are invited to come to the Bruntingthorpe airfield off M1 junction 20 in Leicestershire between 10am and 4pm on either Saturday or Sunday, 15th and 16th September.

After an extensive two year operation focused on bringing the Vulcan back to full flight capability, including a total rewiring of all cabling, the re-installation of fourteen fuel tanks and four Rolls Royce Engines, it is now only the finishing engineering touches which remain to be completed. Soon after, XH558 will be preparing for fast taxiing and ultimately the long awaited return to the sky. Chief Engineer, Andrew Edmondson explains:

“With the Vulcan almost ready to take-off again, these open days are a great opportunity for the public to see the aircraft receiving last minute tweaks. At the moment XH558 is still on the ground, so we wanted to open up our doors to let people see the final hours of our work in progress. Engineering has been a long process, and has largely been carried out behind closed doors, so this weekend will let the public see what goes on at the Vulcan to the Sky Project, how the hangar looks and works and hopefully it will give people fresh inspiration if they have been one of our regular supporters.”

Visitors are asked to give a donation on entrance to the project, which will go towards supporting future work and maintenance on the Vulcan. Over the years, the aircraft has gained a large amount of funding from its public support base, but with first flight expected imminently, continued funds are still urgently needed to keep the Vulcan airborne. The Vulcan to the Sky project is based at Bruntingthorpe Airfield, Lutterworth, Leicestershire, LE17 5QS and information about the project can be found at www.vulcantothesky.com

[saracenman]

hey, is it just me or has anyone else noticed the absence of tombstone lately? do you reckon that he's just popped out to the florists?:hmm:

sm
(is Boots en route d'ya think, or will that be a separate trip?)

[G-KEST]

My boss at the CAA General Aviation Department was an old Vulcan hand, the late Wing Commander Harry McMaster, an Ulsterman and proud of it. We often discussed the awesome displays flown by the Vulcan in its final years with the RAF VDF. He loved his time flying the aircraft as the one time CO of the Vulcan conversion unit at Finningley.

I am glad the project has almost come to fruition and hope Harry will be able to look down as XH558 lifts off from that Bruntingthorpe runway which I have used occasionally. Watch out for an angel tucked in tight with feathered wings alongside the huge delta. They care not for legal RA(T)'s......!!!!

Cheers,

Reaper 69
:cool:

[Flying Signman]

This posted on the official website homepage earlier....


http://www.tvoc.co.uk/images/ground_crew.jpg
The Vulcan Operating Company core team of engineers last Friday at the end of rectification. Picture names left to right: Colin, Alan, Taff, Patrick, NickI am delighted to let you know that in ground tests on 28th September, all of XH558's systems worked to specification, proving that the last snags have now been fixed and that the aircraft is technically ready for flight. Please join me in congratulating the skilled and dedicated team of Vulcan Operating Company engineers and Marshall Aerospace staff in reaching this significant milestone.

What follows now is largely a paperwork exercise to verify the auditability of XH558's transformation back to an airworthy state, culminating in the Flight Test Readiness Review. First test flight will then occur when we are able to bring the test flight crew, airfield facilities and good weather together all at the same time.

Returning XH558 to flight has always been always the first goal of Vulcan to the Sky. Because we remain adamant that no corners be cut, getting to this point where we are now ready for take-off has taken us much longer than originally planned. The delay obviously has had financial repercussions, and our resources are now stretching to breaking point.

Despite the challenges we now face, we are more determined than ever to keep XH558 flying, not only because of what we have promised to you all, but also because we are confident that the achievement of first flight will unlock the commercial sponsorship that will be the foundation for funding the future of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust.

I know all of you reading this message have dug deep into your pockets to get us this far. But if the 40,000 unique visitors to this web site in the last month each e-donated just £5, we would have a cash cushion which should see us through to signing up sponsorship.


Five pounds towards that bunch of roses folks!!!!:)

[G-KEST]

I got the news from a friend by email. This was my response -

Bill,
Thanks for the news on what has been, and still is, a magnificent obsession for so very many enthusiasts.
Everyone is to be congratulated however, as an airshow pilot and operator of a small aerobatic aircraft on the UK display circuit I dread to think of the future problems I, and so many like me, will have in getting airshow bookings. At least for the next couple of years. Organisers will dig deep to have the awesome Vulcan at their show but the budget for display items is finite and they will cut their costs for the remaining display acts to the absolute bone. This for, at most, a 15 minute piece of their programme and a display that cannot ever, in my own opinion, approach the standard seen when the VDF was an active RAF unit.
The almost obscene amount of money that has gone into this project has been amazing. My contribution has been small in cash terms and through the National Lottery Heritage Fund. Those who have given large sums or devoted huge amounts of their time and talents have my admiration for their generosity.
I sincerely look forward to seeing the mighty Vulcan in its natural element again. One or two of my former colleagues at the CAA will certainly be morally bound to eat their bowler hats and that would be a sight to see. However its effect on the UK airshow scene might not be so wonderful in the longer term.

Well there it is. I do have my concerns. Hopefully they will not come to pass.

Cheers,

Reaper 69
:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[BEagle]

A bit of an odd letter, Barry - I'm not sure what point were you trying to make?

The 'pull' of the Vulcan at airshows is likely to be considerable, but cannot be guaranteed. The aircraft will indeed cost a fair bit to operate, but the public support to get it flying again, despite the cost involved, has been very obvious. As have the financial sacrifices made by the very many donors.

Any airshow which cannot afford the Vulcan's participation will be at a considerable disadvantage, notwithstanding the quality of the other participants. So perhaps, if anything, they will have to do more to attract spectators and you may find your participation in greater demand than hitherto?

There is no reason to doubt the professionalism of the VOC; the aircraft is in a much better state of repair than it was with VDF, it has to be flown under an AOC and is maintained to current 'commercial' standards - even though it can only have a Permit to Fly rather than a CofA. Furthermore, the display pilots are of the highest calibre and will display the aircraft in a sympathetic manner in order to preserve it for future generations to enjoy.

The Authority have been very supportive thoughout the project; the present day CAA is far removed from the 'Campaign Against Aviation' of yore.

[G-KEST]

BEagle,

I think you might be correct in which case my concerns will be unfounded but they do exist at the moment. We shall see what happens.

The Vulcan, as an ex-military aircraft that will have a permit to fly issued by the CAA, will not require VOC to hold an AOC. That is only needed for commercial air transport operations. It will be maintained by an A8-20 approved organisation and operated in accordance with CAP 632, as are all such aircraft.

Some ten years ago I retired from the CAA. Up to that time very few folk within the CAA at senior level thought the aircraft would ever fly again. Several said it would be over their dead bodies as it could never meet the level of safety required. They have been proved to be men of little faith in the determination of a huge number of people from all walks of life who have indeed worked a veritable miracle. Yes, the CAA have been supportive in recent years. It has not always been so.

As we approach that day of lift off I wish the project well and look forward to seeing that, once familiar, black triangle silhouette against an English sunlit blue sky.

Cheers,

Reaper 69
:ok::cool::ok:

[Al R]

Won't its presence be limited, to prolong its airframe life, how many hours are being budgeted for?

Ultimately, its all about supply and demand. The public might be justified in wanting to see her (especially in the short term), instead of lots of smaller and more similar familiar aircraft. But I imagine that the market will soon find its own level again, rather quickly.

[ANAPROP]

First test flight will then occur when we are able to bring the test flight crew, airfield facilities and good weather together all at the same time.

That'll be this weekend then...

[gareth herts]

FIR: EGTT
Code: RTCA
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Nav Warning
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 030
Centre and radius (nm): 5229N00108W003
Parent ICAO: EGTT
Start date/time: 15/10/2007 09:00 UTC
End date/time: 02/11/2007 16:00 UTC
Activity period: MON-FRI 0900-1600

Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 030

RESTRICTED AREA(TEMPORARY) FOR VULCAN TEST FLYING AT BRUNTINGTHORPE.
RESTRICTION OF FLYING REGULATIONS MADE UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE AIR
NAVIGATION ORDER 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552 201.135.9).
NO ACFT IS TO FLY WI AREA BOUNDED BY CIRCLE RAD 3NM CENTRED AT 522913N
0010750W EXCEPT ACFT FLYING WITH PERMISSION OF OPERATOR OF
BRUNTINGTHORPE AERODROME OR IN THE SERVICE OF THE LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE.