Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)

[TOPBUNKER]

It's got it's legs back now - which was quite a significant 'stopper' for test flying.

Expect it to be be flying by the end of June.

(This is just a rumour site isn't it!)

[BEagle]

Spoke to those in the know last Sunday....

Things are looking good for a first flight once the aircraft is back on her legs and has completed the necessary ground checks. The CAA test pilot is champing at the bit and both the CAA and MA are eager to get things moving.

I would wager a few quid that the aircraft will display at Waddo, but, as in all things aeronautical, it is by no means certain. Never forget the UK weather either....:hmm:

Would all the doom merchants and sundry misery-guts please form an orderly queue and foxtrot oscar. Eyethangyooo!!

[shawshank]

AIRSHOW FM at Waddington have just announced that they have provisionally removed the vulcan from the display programme due to concerns about the amount of work outstanding on the aircraft. They will slot it back in if it becomes servicable but are ahead of the game after being slated last year for not advertising that the vulcan wouldn't be flying.

Good on the airshow for not letting punters down on the day. VTTS - come on, this can't go on. The funds will dry up sometime soon.

[deltapapa]

I am not defending them in any way but they do send email updates but you need to register for them on the TVST site.

Normally they are copied & pasted on to other fora but as the feed back from Pprune is always so hostile I think those that did it have now stopped.

There were updates on the 2nd & 11th June & it stated that there would be another update this week - which looks like it will be tomorrow now.

The last update said they would not make public any venues until she has her paperwork in order.

[Alber Ratman]

Using a Haynes manual won't keep the CAA happy..:E

[Checkflaps]

Well, for what its worth.......

RAF Lyneham - Flying Info (http://www.raf.mod.uk/raflyneham/flyinginfo/)

Waddo still a posibility, just got to hope the CAA test pilot is free next week.

CF

[Wander00]

Wonder if the guy who put all that cash in thinks he got value for money?

[Amos Keeto]

..hmm bottomless pitt....how many million? :ugh:

[hurn]

..hmm bottomless pitt....how many million? :ugh:Yeah, and....... It's not coming out of your pocket is it. :rolleyes:

[srobarts]

Update on VTTS site today:
VTTS News (http://www.site.vulcantothesky.org/news/templates/?a=686&z=1)
News about Waddington next week......

[SENTENEL]

TT9X3xENdZw

[Winco]

Hurn

How do you know its not coming out of AK's pocket??

It has certainly come out of many other peoples' pocket and it is again an utter disgrace that those people have been treated in such a dreadful manner.

No news, no nothing, typical TVOC and typical Pleming.

You can bet your socks that they will get a 'permit to test' on friday and get it to Waddington, where it will spend the whole weekend on the ground. Then we will be able to listen to all the so-called 'experts' telling us why it can't fly and whose fault it is (everybody's except theirs)

The whole project is nothing short of a joke and I am astonished that Pleming is still in a job. How can that be? The man is incompetant beyond belief.

Oh well, same old story. I don't know why I am surprised really. After all, they've only known about Waddington for about..mmmmm oh yes, 12 months!

Winco

[deltapapa]

As I said over the page if you want to receive updates straight to your in box sign up for them......

This was the issued yesterday

Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust (http://www.site.vulcantothesky.org/)

click the top item right hand side of the page under 'Latest News'


I do agree there could be more official updates/news but to say there is no news is just not true. The engineers also give regular updates on the TVST forum - which is viewable to non members.


And I love the video from MaPS well done them :D

[andrewmcharlton]

Isn't this just the same old story?

Poor PR totheir "investors" and piss poor at keeping folks engaged?

What happened to Pleming's supposed planned departure I think even he talked of?

[waco]

..the biggest waste of money EVER.

For a small percentage of the sums spent we could probably have built Sterling, Hampden, Halifax and Manchester replica's with enough left over to put a mo:ugh:ssi back in the air.........

The whole thing is just crazy.

Don't get me wrong I love the Vulcan, its a Manchester ship but for goodness sake..........just STOP.

[JEM60]

But don't forget that thousands and thousands of the Great British Public have looked up in awe at this wondrous piece of engineering, according to Dr.P.
Truth probably is, that if they bothered to look up at all, then they wouldn't have a clue what they were seeing. Even my wife, who works at Duxford on Show Days, remarked, after it's two passes a year or so ago, commented 'is that it, then!! Is that what all the fuss has been about, it wasn't worth it.'
I like the aircraft too, but it has been overhyped, oversold, and hopelessly undermanaged.

[Winco]

Same old story really. Yesterday was the 'permit to test' day so you would have expected them to have updated their web site, but in true TVOC tradition.........absolutely nothing!

They will probably drag it out until friday for the PTT, fly it and land at Waddo and then blame everyone else AGAIN for not getting the paperwork sorted. Still, it will get the public into Waddington I guess.

TVOC, a bunch of amateurs??? nah, they're not even that good. Incompetance I would suggest is a more accurate reflection of them.

Any news on when Dr P will go and we can get someone who knows what they are doing in charge of this joke?

[Evanelpus]

Any news on when Dr P will go and we can get someone who knows what they are doing in charge of this joke?

Winco, I wouldn't worry too much about this. I think many, many loyal supporters of 558 who have donated money to get this magnificent aircraft to fly again are royally jacked off by the whole situation. Come the next appeal they will not dig deep again and 2011 will see the Vulcan confined to the ground....somewhere.

Sadly, what started out as a bunch of highly motivated enthusiasts trying to get the Vulcan into the air again has manifested itself into a business with large sums of money involved. IMHO, Dr P should have gone ages ago.

558 RIP!

[Evanelpus]

Jesus Christ, you bunch of sad, grumpy old tw*ts!

Phew, that must have taken some doing coming up with that response!

Where you say sad, grumpy old tw*ats, insert the word realists. The Vulcan is a cash cow and is becoming a liability. I sweat blood working on them for 10 years and know exactly the kind of maintenace issues it suffers from. For whatever reason (and please don't bleat on about late funding, that shouldn't have been an issue if the project was being run correctly), 558 should have been ready for the start of the airshow programme.

Just think how many other classic aircraft could have been saved using money donated to 558.

[Winco]

hurn,

Why do you think that we are being sad and grumpy? Have you donated to the project? Are you not just a little peeved that half way through the airshow season, there is no sign of 558? Arn't you concerned that there has been no word on the aircraft? Don't you want to know where millions of pounds is/has been spent? Are you happy with the way TVOC is being (mis) managed??

If you don't, then that's fine, but I would suggest that it is you therefore that is sad, certainly not the rest of us.

And as for tw*ts - why not try being just a little more adult and grown up instead of your childish, schoolboy name calling?

Have a nice day!

[deltapapa]

Where has it been written or said yesterday was permit to test day? Have I missed something?

What was said in last Fridays update was......

We still have a days work to complete the engines test and the remaining electrical test prior to the first post service test flight schedule.

Our Engineering Authority, Marshall Aerospace and OEM’s, BAE, and Rolls Royce, together with the CAA, are working hard to complete all the relevant paper work necessary to allow the application for a permit to test. Once the test flight is completed and rectification is clear, a Permit Maintenance release will be signed by MA and the CAA will then issue a permit to fly.


No-one said it was yesterday as far as I can see!

[jumpseater]

Sadly, what started out as a bunch of highly motivated enthusiasts trying to get the Vulcan into the air again has manifested itself into a business with large sums of money involved.

Surely anyone with any time in the industry on the engineering and ops side realised that this project needed to be run as a 'business' and there would need to be massive sums of money involved, simply because of the type and complexity of the aircraft. That money would need to come from somewhere, and regularly. Unfortunately many of the highly motivated enthusiasts weren't/aren't aware of this fact of life, or have chosen to bury their heads in the sand.

[alisoncc]

Don't know what all the drama is about. In my day all they had to do was declare a Mickey Finn and everything flew - ready or not. Can't they do the same again? :ok:

[Winco]

dp

Apologies if that's incorrect, but a friend told me that he thought he had heard Mike P saying on the Lincoln Radio that the PPT was booked for monday, and if all OK a DA later in the week all set for Waddington. No??

Any idea when it is booked for then?

Times getting on, only 2 days left. They do leave it late don't they?

[dakkg651]

Jumpseater said:-

"Surely anyone with any time in the industry on the engineering and ops side realised that this project needed to be run as a 'business' and there would need to be massive sums of money involved, simply because of the type and complexity of the aircraft. That money would need to come from somewhere, and regularly. Unfortunately many of the highly motivated enthusiasts weren't/aren't aware of this fact of life, or have chosen to bury their heads in the sand".

You are dead right about the highly motivated enthusiasts being unaware that this aircraft was going to keep swallowing huge sums of their money. Mr Pleming gave the impression that once flying, the aircraft would attract so many sponsors that they would be battering his door down to shower him with money. Well, he was wrong wasn't he? So it was back to the highly motivated enthusiasts with cap in hand and a sob story to tell. This has carried on being the case until we again arrive at the situation of the aircraft still sitting on the ground halfway through the display season. We enthusiasts have not buried our heads in the sand, we are just bloody angry at the mismanagement of what is turning out to be a sorry project. Value for money? I think not!

[deltapapa]

No problem Winco. :)


They haven't been able to do engines runs yet because the access to the engine running pan was blocked by a u/s hawk [according to other fora] & of course there was also an embargo at Lyneham yesterday for the repat.


I think they hope to complete the engine runs today & a test flight will ensue ASAP.

Whether they make Waddington or not is yet to be seen!!

[Winco]

dp,

Many thanks for that.
I'm fairly sure that if the aircraft dosn't display at Waddington again this year, that will be the last straw for a great many loyal supporters.

Even with the best will in the world and all the stops pulled out by the CAA, they will struggle to get it into Waddington in time. The CAA needs a finite time to get things sorted and the fact that engine runs haven't been completed does not bode well.

The continuous mismanagement of this project has now got to a stage where someone must surely start asking questions about it's legal standing surely?

Ah well, I guess I'll cancel my trip back to Lincolnshire this weekend!

Winco

[bvcu]

reminds me of all the 'experts' on the radio about a certain football teams mis management ! Lets be realistic , it was a bit of a longshot hoping for a major sponsor to underwrite this project , but it could happen. If everyone was realistic and hadnt taken the gamble she would be parked up gently rotting away , so to my mind its thankyou to everyone thats contributed because its been great to see her flying and we should appreciate every trip as it cant last forever. As for the criticism over getting ready for Waddington , anyone who knows aircraft maintenance couldnt guarantee a modern a/c 100% after a winter lay up let alone the last of a kind , decades old ! Hopefully she'll make it .

[Cornerstone958]

Any 'Heads Up' on the possibility of an Air Test today?
Thanks
CS

[iansmith]

According to sources, PFI issued for a test flight today and crew are on board.

[DHfan]

Airborne a couple of minutes ago.

[SX983]

Displaying over Kemble as I type this

[srobarts]

This site (http://twitter.com/xh558) is good for timely updates on flying days.

[BEagle]

The Vulcan is now cleared to display at Waddo this weekend - on both Saturday and Sunday.

Enjoy the howwwwwwwwwwwhooooooooooollll!!

[lightbluefootprint]

Are you nearby the guy who signed it? The official site for 558 says that it is on the way to the aircraft, I hope it is being carried in a fireproof box, I've been unfortunate enough to have been disappointed at Waddo for the last two years!:sad:

[nacluv]

Much too late notice for me, I'm afraid.

I had tentatively planned to go to Waddo with a few mates, but the Vulcan was the clincher. Not being able to confirm earlier in the week, when we could have firmed up on the plans, killed the deal. Six disappointed people here.

Maybe next year? :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Looked magnificent descending into Brize from the East a few minutes ago....:ok:

Perhaps UK airshow organisers will soon realise that there are 2 types of airshow:

1. Those which have booked the Vulcan.
2. Those without spectators.

Waddington kept everyone informed throughout last week, as did the Vulcan To The Sky website. It was a close run thing to get the aircraft ready for today, but engineers, aircrew and the CAA all worked together to achieve it.

Perhaps you might contribute the dosh you would have spent at Waddo to the VTST so that there will be a display for you to see next year?

[gearontheglide]

Just got back from Waddo - Glide Towers is in the very near area - Superb Vulcan display. That departure:ok::ok::ok:

As BEags said earlier

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLL!

[staplefordheli]

As BEagle quite rightly says

"Perhaps UK airshow organisers will soon realise that there are 2 types of airshow:

1. Those which have booked the Vulcan.
2. Those without spectators.

Waddington kept everyone informed throughout last week, as did the Vulcan To The Sky website. It was a close run thing to get the aircraft ready for today, but engineers, aircrew and the CAA all worked together to achieve it."




Cant fault either TVOC or Waddo as both were up front about how close run it would be and i was watching the progress through he last 3 weeks. TBH we were undecided yesterday but with the clearnance at 1400 given and weather forcast it was off to Morrisons to get the tickets last night for today for me an my 11 yr old who was so supset last year with her not displaying but today made up for it (along with Cosby last September)
What can i say, brilliant piece of British engineering even today and had everyone out of the trade marquess and visiting overseas aircrews standing in awe :ok::ok:
Dont get me wrong there was also a very good airshow in the current climate as well, it just adds to it when 558 pops in

[nacluv]

That's great, but you clearly didn't read my post properly. I said the problem arose because they could not confirm earlier in the week. Not inform. As there were six families to arrange and/or rearrange the weekend plans for, the old adage of 'where there's doubt, there's no doubt' came to the fore.

And for your information, I have already paid into the 558 kitty to the tune of well more than me and my mates lifetime's worth of Waddo entry fees.

Thank you for asking.

[BEagle]

And thank you very much for contributing to 558's restoration appeal....:ok:

It was impossible to confirm 558's planned appearance until 1300 on Friday - sorry that it was too late for you and your friends this time, but I hope that you'll have better success next year.

1455 Another magnificent sight a few moments ago as '558 descended majestically into Brize!

[rich_g85]

So, 558 is on the ground at Yeovilton. Will she be flying tomorrow at all, or just the display on Saturday?

[Smiler558]

No not tomorrow, but I think the timeslot is just after lunch on Saturday.

:O

[Tankertrashnav]

I suppose I could just ring Culdrose up, but does anyone know if she is planning to make an appearance at Culdrose Air Day?

TTN

[deltapapa]

Why not check the VTST website

Vulcan To The Sky - Aircraft Appearances (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/appearances.html)

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks DeltaPapa, very helpful.

588 confirmed for a display that day (28th July) - great :ok: Just praying that the all too frequent Cornish clag doesn't ruin things, as has happened so often in the past.

[Tankertrashnav]

Delighted to say that I've just come in from my field after watching 588 do her display at Culdrose. She did not land and take part in the static display because of worries about her brakes, post Farnborough, as I understand it, but the main thing was she got here. Weather was good and it was just great seeing the familiar outline appearing from down The Lizard. Display a little less spectacular than I have seen in the past, but that's not a complaint as there are obvious reasons for restraint. Well done guys for letting us see her down here.

[Evanelpus]

She did not land and take part in the static display because of worries about her undercarriage, post Farnborough,

Could you expand on this? I heard it was a brake problem post Farnborough but I could have been misinformed.

Display a little less spectacular than I have seen in the past, but that's not a complaint as there are obvious reasons for restraint

Probably linked to my first question. Having been resposible (in the past) for Vulcan u/c and hydraulic system for over 10 years I'm quite surprised about this. The u/c was built like a brick $hithouse.

[deltapapa]

It was a brake problem at FAB - I think TTN may have edited his post?


There are 2 restraints limiting 558 appearances, one is her limited life on engine cycles, the other is FI - hence very, very few long transits this year.

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes, sorry Evanelpus, when I re-read my post I realise I had put undercarriage instead of brakes - put it down to a mental abherration, exacerbated by advancing years!

Saw the news footage tonight - even better in close up! I hope someone got some video to post on You Tube - or here?

[Evanelpus]

No need for apologies Tanker, it gets us all in the end, I should know:)

[Smiler558]

It was a brake problem which we fixed the morning of the Culdrose display and there was no way of us travelling to Culdrose to see it in!

:O

[Tankertrashnav]

Smiler

Well you made a lot of people in Cornwall very happy, thank you all very much for your efforts. Air day contained a lot to entertain the enthusiast, but for a real crowd-pleasing show-stopper you have to have a big noisy jet, and nothing fills the bill better than 558 :ok:

[hurn]

Witnessed a quite wonderful display from 558 this weekend at Dunsfold aerodrome.

The final low dirty flypast and climb out is a much welcome addition to the display.

Despite all that is said against VttS, (some deserved, some not) it's days like these that just make it all worthwhile. Well done to all involved. :D

PS: So good to see the Harrier back displaying at it's 'birthplace' too.

[robin]

Sorry to have to reactivate the thread but some more news about the Vulcan - again

Vulcan To The Sky - Press Release published (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/121/82/Press-Release-published.html)

Sounds like the annual appeal is early this year. I feel really sorry for the dedicated teams who support this aircraft -it can't be easy having this constant level of uncertainty.

[andrewmcharlton]

Just spotted it following your post.

What a fiasco. Same story +1 year.

What happened to the promised depature of the good Doctor?

I have deja vu all over again from my post in February.

What a complete cluster f&^%

Same story in calender +365. Stick the date in the diary for next year and standy by for more waffly bollocks about said sound business footing (again), more openess (again) and better communications (again).

The only real positive is the hardworking staff (journeymen managers excepted) get to keep their jobs which they well deserve.

[Tankertrashnav]

If I had been ordered to press the button that released the nuclear payload, there would almost certainly have been no Britain left to fly home to....... Flight Lieutenant Martin Withers DFC


Didn't know Martin Withers was a Nav Radar ;)

[hurn]

The Vulcan has been attending the Coventry Fly-In today (at their own cost) in aid of Help for Heroes. :D

[JEM60]

Surely you mean mean financed by all of the people who donated money to it. I assume you mean VTTS wasn't paid for attending. I have no problem with that, by the way.

[deltapapa]

It was financed by the Vulcan 558 Club.

[hurn]

I assume you mean VTTS wasn't paid for attending.No they weren't, and given how skint they are they could easily have saved the cash and stayed home.

I mentioned it to add some balance to the thread, as this kind of thing generally gets ignored by those who want to concentrate on the negative aspects.

[BEagle]

Tankertrashnav, there were 2 bomb release tits in addition to the one at the nav radar's ststaion. The co-pilots button operated via the time delay unit, whereas the button on the left of the center console released instantaneously - I far preferred using the centre console button as the target passed under the no.3 rpm gauge!

[andrewmcharlton]

I see on the BBC website another article including the remarks that


Dr Pleming said he hoped to keep it airborne for two further display seasons


I see from the TVOC website that the planned expiry of it's life was supposed to be 10 years post restoration display life?

[staplefordheli]

BBC News - Last airworthy Vulcan 'could have flown for last time' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-11413736)
Radio leicester are running the story
doesnt look very good for the future

[sled dog]

How many more times can "Wolf" be called ? I do not blame many Donors for giving up. Seems to still be something of a shambolic organisation. I just feel sorry for all the "essential" personnel who have ( are ) working so hard. As for the management..........:yuk:

[Tankertrashnav]

FT=Vg (Sqr 2H/g +/- Hdot/g - Tau +Time Advance) + ½ stick length – H Tan Lambda Cos Delta.

Vg is the ground speed and all the functions inside the brackets are time functions. The product of Vg + t gives the basic forward throw for an ideal bomb, or more accurately the bomb firing button activation point. The stick length and the trig function, or trail distance, are distance functions which are then applied to the basic forward throw.
G is of course acceleration due to gravity and is taken as 32 feet/sec/sec.
H dot /g is the climb/dive correction hence it may be positive or negative.
Tau is a fixed value which represents the drag factor on the bomb. For an ideal bomb this would be 1. For a 1000lb I calculated the value of drag to be about 0.95 but I don’t know how the actual correction in the formula was calculated – the ballistic film did that). Tau is negative as bomb drag reduces forward throw.


(Thanks to Roy Brocklebank for explaining the forward throw equation, all worked out by the amazing Heath Robinson box of tricks known as the calc 3).

Just think, Beags, someone went to all the trouble to work that out when they might just as easily have said "Press the tit when the target passes under the no. 3 rpm gauge" ;)

[deltapapa]

The problem is it's not 'crying wolf' unfortunately!!

Once she is grounded be it for lack of funds or engine cycles or no more Fatigue - that's it, she nor any other Vulcan will EVER fly again!



PS: can someone explain how to quote a post please?

[Evanelpus]

I'll donate if the good Doctor 'does one'.....can't say fairer than that!

[Max Tow]

From the BBC website linked above:

" It is hoped the plane will perform a fly-past at the opening of the 2012 Olympic Games in London...."

I'm puzzled as to just why the organisers of the London Olympics would want an obsolete Cold War weapon showcased as part of the opening ceremony?

[forget]

I'm puzzled as to just why the organisers of the London Olympics would want an obsolete Cold War weapon showcased as part of the opening ceremony?

They could always paint the underside gloss white, as it should be, and stick the silly logo onto it. At least it would end up with a proper paint job.

[Winco]

Might I ask some of you 'legal' types out there what, in your opinion, is the position regarding having Pleming removed from the project legally? The man has demonstrated on countless occasions his inability to manage this project and the time must now be upon us where his 'legal standing' in this fiasco of a project must be questioned. He needs to be removed doesn't he?

Surely the lottery commission have a duty to oversee the project? What about the charity commission? Anyone got any thoughts?

dp
I know what you are saying, but we have had this identical scenario and bleating for the past 3-4 years now. One minute Pleming is saying he has sufficient funds then he hasn't. You seem to have your ears close to the coal face, what is the truth? More importantly, why is the useless incompetant still in post?

I despair. I just despair. Same $hit - different day

And what ever happened about the new guy who was going to raise tens of thousands of pounds selling memorabilia? Where is he at and where is all his money?? Or did he not raise that kind of sum? surprise surprise!

Robert, you have lost all credability. Your standing has reached a lowness that cannot even be measured any more. If you care just a tiny jot about this project then do us all a favour and QUIT!! NOW!

[dilldog01]

Given that the Vulcan was restored to flight just as a huge recession was kicking in it seems pretty obvious why the corporate sponsors that the Vulcan trust initially thought they could attract (when financially things looked better) have not been found...UK companies are simply not spending money on things which don't add to the bottom line...I don't think it would really matter who had been in charge the last 3 years as the financial situation of the UK would have had whoever it was having to rely on the begging bowl..the money would not have been there and public donations as has been the case would have been relied on for the period

[andrewmcharlton]

I'm puzzled as to just why the organisers of the London Olympics would want an obsolete Cold War weapon showcased as part of the opening ceremony?


Well we did show a London bus splitting open at the Beijing Ceremony to remind them of Al-Quaeda's efforts....

Winco, the first thing that strikes me is a blatant lie: the TVOC site says they asked HLF for money and were refused. I have in my possession a FOI answer from HLF that says they never received any request for further monies, either formally or informally. Someone is talking sh&te and I know where my money is on that one.

Pleming has consistently presided over an organisation that has failed, barring dole outs at the last minute, to be a sustainable proposition. He is telling the BBC she has 2 years left when this is again at odds with the stated objectives and conditions of the HLF.

He has apparently offered to resign as I recall but hasn't gone to date. He's making the lovely Bond lady look good now.

As for the so called "Vulcan factor" - I was looking at the TVOC website and their claimed attendance figures for airshows where 558 has displayed. I don't see any that leap out as grossly over the numbers attending during the non-Vulcan years but doubtless some pedant will prove me wrong.

I assume that they don't even have the cash to buld the legacy museum so as it stands there will be no plane and a rotting hull somewhere. Utter disgrace. Sorry for the staff and volunteers but time for the fat lady to sing if Pleming does not resign.

[robin]

The rules on Lottery funding are quite clear. You make a proposal for funding for a specific purpose. Part of the process looks at the business plan as the project has to be self-sustaining. There is no way they will give funds for a second proposal except in extreme circumstances. XH558 does not fit in any way to their criteria.

The project team has been caught by the recession through sheer bad luck. They may well have expected business to sponsor the project but it is clear they lacked the skills to make it happen.

Reliance on public contribution is only a short-term fix but over 3 years this has become the project's business plan combined with an annual 'pay up or she is grounded' appeal.

This year the funding was raised at the last minute after redundancies were issued, I believe not for the first time. The public are becoming cynical so another appeal along those lines will not work.

I don't doubt Dr Pleming's good offices, but the performance has been less than brilliant and CEOs have been sacked for less.

I feel that the work of the many hard-working staff has been poorly recognised or appreciated and they deserve better leadership

[RTR]

What does it cost per hour to operate 558 and how much does it get per display from an air show organiser and how many hours it flies per season?

What would the £400,000 be for anyway. The sums are bandied about like they are peanuts. "By the end of October" - is that it? What about income from the displays? How much is that?

[deltapapa]

Most of your questions can be answered here

FAQs | Vulcan To The Sky (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/faq-contact/faqs.html)

They reduced flying hours this year to conserve some Fatigue

[jumpseater]

Cost per hour

From FAQ's VTTS
The fully-loaded costs of flying the Vulcan are just under £19,000 per flying hour; this includes fuel, insurance, aircrew, servicing costs, consumables such as tyres, oils etc. (4/09)




However they also say re earnings from airshows/flypasts
We begin negotiations with event organisers by asking for £12,000 for a single display or £5,000 for a flypast. If we can carry out more than one display or flypast at different venues on a single sortie then the total costs can be shared between the events

Doesn't seem at vace value a brilliant strategy to cover costs :hmm:

[deltapapa]

They've always been aware and open about display fees not covering the costs, they also know they can't ask for more because air shows can't afford to pay more - that's why they need income from elsewhere!

[Evanelpus]

Well we did show a London bus splitting open at the Beijing Ceremony to remind them of Al-Quaeda's efforts....

Poor taste Andrew, very poor taste!

[hurn]

Poor taste Andrew, very poor taste! Yes indeed, very poor taste and just one of the reasons I tend to skip over his ridiculous rantings. :=

[Feathers McGraw]

By my calculations, the roughly 1.5m GBP per annum required needs about 25,000 donors to put in 60 GBP per annum each, or a fiver per month.

Doesn't seem like that many people out of a population of 60 million, lets say 25 million who earn so that's one person in 1,000 donating that amount of money.

I will confess that every time I hear from the various XH558 organisations it's either boom or bust, they've been going on about a wonderful summer display season and then suddenly with only a month to run they need another half mil!

Not impressed....

[Evanelpus]

I will confess that every time I hear from the various XH558 organisations it's either boom or bust, they've been going on about a wonderful summer display season and then suddenly with only a month to run they need another half mil!

The cry wolf tactics used by VTTS are getting a little tedious. I am a Vulcan lover but unless they can find a major donor for the whole amount, I think it's time to 'call time' on this project.

[hurn]

Crying Wolf would indicate that they were asking for money when they don't need it which isn't the case here.

With regards to 'calling time', that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

My opinion however is that they should continue for as long as possible. I'm happy to keep putting a little bit in each year even if others are not. :)

[Evanelpus]

My opinion however is that they should continue for as long as possible. I'm happy to keep putting a little bit in each year even if others are not.

VttS need more like you Hurn!

[Feathers McGraw]

Well I've been paying my bit for several years now, as are a fair few people I know. But all of them feel the same about the message timing and content coming from Brunty....

[bubblesuk]

VTTS haven't been at Brunty for some time now.

[Feathers McGraw]

Well, OK, but you know what I mean....

[andrewmcharlton]

Hurn: as to my "poor taste" I repeat only that which was plastered over the newspapers when the event in questioned occured. If you are offended I apologise.

However, as to my "ridiculous rantings" what exactly is it I have said that's ridiculous?

Is asking for honesty, transparency, commercial accumen from a publicly funded project ridiculous?

Watching 558 is superb - their PR and organisation is a shambles, however, I daresay that you disagree with that. I had a personal conversation with the good doctor some considerable time ago and I have read their latest (and ongoing) press releases and statements. Their latest public statements on their website about asking for funding etc are in direct contradiction to an FOI request I did and published unedited on here some time last year. Someone is telling a lie, simple as. I assume hoping for the truth is another ridiculous rant?

Wouldn't it be fun to imagine an honest and clear business plan which is based on reality and was sustainable...presumablely it's only a matter of time before the "let's email Richard Branson" and "if everyone just gave £1 a week".

[Lister Noble]

"Dear Vulcan trust,
It would help if there were a set of accounts available to see exactly where each penny of the money goes each year.
I have supported the Vulcan funds in the past,but unfortunately until I see these figures I will not be giving a donation this time.
Best Regards
Lister Noble"

I wish it was not neccessary,but I have lots of other worthy causes asking for donations,with a transparent accounting set -up

[srobarts]

The accounts for the year ended Oct 2009 are on the charity commisions website.
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/ScannedAccounts/Ends48%5C0001101948_ac_20091031_e_c.pdf
They make interesting reading - one Doctor is paying himself £72,000. The salary bill has doubled but the number of employees has decreased.
VTS Enterprises made a loss of nearly £200k - why?

[cordless]

what i would like to know is why the account ending period was moved by three months and also why the accounts were only finalized on the 31st august 2010, some ten months later after the accounting period. And why, when the accounts were for 31 october 2009 do they mention july 2010 in several places. It seems to me as if there are a lot of people here looking after there own ends. Why 7 part time aircrew ,shurly there are some who would love to fly for free and a chairman/CE/Employee working for free for the love of the Vulcan like the rest of us.It looks as they have killed the goose that layed the golden egg. what a pitty.

[Lister Noble]

Salaries amount to just under one third of all income.
That's it then,no more from me,I've got my own responsibilities and they do not include paying hard earned cash for salaries for work that could mostly be done by volunteers.:(

[andrewmcharlton]

Well at the risk of ranting ridiculously.....

The Educational Legacy is effectively on hold;

C Walton Limited now have a second charge over the aircraft to secure their debt;

Questions that aren't answered or clear:

How does the cost of exhibiting and displaying rise from £121k to £664k?

How is the subsidiary allowed to make a loss of £195k?

Who charged them £63k for "consultancy costs"?

How can salaries rise from £329k to £747k in a year?

Another £23k in undisclosed "consultancy fees" for what?

No doubt some will consider it unreasonable of me (and others btw) to want answers and clarity, but whilst the CEO earns £72k a year and so many unanswered questions I think I'm entitled to ask. This should not be confused with any desire to see the project grounded, on the contrary. Wuith clear reporting, engagement with donors and some commercial reality to the leadership the project could flourish instead of flounder. How a CEO can make public statements about it "lasting another couple of years" whilst their plan says it has many more is beyond me.

[bubblesuk]

Salaries amount to just under one third of all income.
That's it then,no more from me,I've got my own responsibilities and they do not include paying hard earned cash for salaries for work that could mostly be done by volunteers


Lister.

The CAA require the engineers to be proper qualified, certified and licensed, Volunteers can't work on the aeroplane, they can and do help out in a supporting role but the chaps wielding the spanners have to be professions.

[Lister Noble]

I take your point which is valid,but it ( the financial crises) never seem to end.
My CFI said much better to build a Mosquito.:)

[aviate1138]

Mine said "Make it a Hornet"

If Capt. 'Winkle' Brown said the Hornet was his favourite prop aircraft then we should build one.....

PS There must be handfuls of people who could sort this Vulcan fiasco out? Present incumbent seems rather incompetent IMHO. The salary of around 72K is for what?

[WASALOADIE]

I have contributed to this cause for a few years now. I thought I was contributing to keep a piece of aviation heritage flying, not to line to pockets of some individuals, who I thought were volunteers. I can understand some of the funds going to cover expenses, but inflated salaries for "volunteers" is not what I want to pay for.

I would hope that the accounts are fully accountable somewhere as this involves charitable donations, otherwise the organisation is laying itself wide open to allegations of fruad.

I am not alone in thinking that this is now becoming a lost cause. It would be a shame not to see such a magnificent aircraft fly again, but you can only milk the generosity of people so far.

Until I see value for money, my money will no longer be destined for this cause.

[jindabyne]

Out of mild interest only, are the individual amounts payable to aircrew publicly available?

[andrewmcharlton]

There doesn't seem to be any further breakdown or clarification available anywhere to my knowledge. Generic headings for salaries, consultancy or other operating costs don't make it abundandtly clear.

[bubblesuk]

The engineers are not volunteers, like i said the CAA requires them to be proper professionals Volunteers cannot work on the aircraft, where they can be used they are. As to whether Mr Pleming is worth his salary i can't comment, But the chaps on the ground who work their socks off to keep 558 in the air are certainly worth theirs. I am a volunteer for the club/trust and i don't receive a penny for what i do. Every single expense the volunteers incur comes out of our own pockets, thats traveling, food, and accommodation. We do not get nor want a penny back.

[andrewmcharlton]

Bubbles, your colleagues deserve every praise and respect and have no doubt they work well over the odds for the cause. Tremendous effort and commitment.

[Winco]

Would anyone in an Official (or unofficial) capacity from TVOC care to update us on what the hell is going on, or has it all gone Tit$ Up and simply died??

Bubbles, what about you? You seem to have a good handle on where things stand, whats happening please?

No word about the money to the good Doctor I see yet?? hmmmmm

[andrewmcharlton]

Have a look at their latest press release Winco. Can't work out if there is a tragedy in the offing or a celebration of greatness....

[Smiler558]

Well it's simple, we need £400,000 by the end of the month and we have raised just over a £100,000 so far. Therefore as things stand at the minute I will be out of a job by next weekend:bored:

[forget]

Straight to the 'news' page -

Vulcan To The Sky - Latest Press Release (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/132/82/Latest-Press-Release.html)

[andrewmcharlton]

The Press Release seems to almost gloss over the current financial plight and surely that should be front and centre? Helping get the money and paying the lads must come ahead of their "What we're going to do in 2011" type of statements?

I hope they can get the money but the sense of frustration at taking a number of years to realise that there are no mega sponsors is overwhelming.

Fingers crossed for you smiler and your colleagues not to mention well done on your hard graft.

[peter272]

The trajectory on donations is not good, but I'd bet there will be a last minute donation that will save the day (again)

As an early supporter of the project I've given up on this continual shroud waving by Dr Pleming. I am just so sad for the dedicated team who keep getting their redundancy notices only to have them rescinded later.

That is unforgiveable behaviour from a CEO who is getting paid a respectable income as opposed to the highly professional and competent engineers and crew.

[A2QFI]

I have tried to remain neutral in all aspects of this saga but and I am sure that audited accounts have been published, which I have not looked at. However, can anyone publish an overall figure for what has been paid into the "Fund" since it started; by this I mean the Lottery Heritage Grant, a huge sum put in at the last minute some time ago by a rich and generous industrialist and the tens of thousands of one-off and regular donations Also profits from DVD and souvenir sales - it all adds up.

Apart from this income what other sources are there? Do display organisers contribute something towards the fact that the aircraft took part in their air-show. If they do I wouldn't think it would come close to covering the costs. I am guessing that keeping this fine icon of our aviation heritage is going to continue to be something of a money-pit with outgoings always exceeding income. Somebody please tell me, politley, that I am wrong.

As ever, when discussing salaries, people are decribed as "earning £X thousand a year". In many cases they are not earning it - they are paid it

[Feathers McGraw]

Just received another email asking me to vote in a poll to decide what might happen to XH558 if the money is not forthcoming, whether the aircraft should be taken to a museum now while still allowed to fly or moved abroad to somewhere funding is available to keep on flying.

What I can't see is any evidence of a credible plan to prevent this happening again in 2011 and then again every year thereafter.

I'm still donating my monthly amount, and have been for several years now so I feel that I've done my bit especially since I've not seen XH558 fly at all in that time.

[Muzzey]

I received a mail shot from TVOC todayoutlining the current issue so have donated again as in the past - can't see the point of complaining, you either support the project or you don't.

Having visited Lyneham early this year & seen first hand the dedication & engineering skills of the ground crew & volunteers I have the suspicion that they would not waste their own time blindly if they suspected the project was being deliberately mismanaged against the collective interest.

As pointed out elsewhere, it's a one plane airline with no passengers - so, costs are considerable - if we want to continue enjoying the tin triangle in the sky we have to help support it, vote with your wallets people - or not, as you wish.

Smiler, Bubbles & the rest of the crew - chins up, keep doing what you do :ok:

[dope05]

I am out- have contributed in the past and was glad to see it fly again but it seems the whole thing is mismanaged. Anyway, given the current financial squeeze it will be difficult to obtain funds. The threat to sell it to the US or Russia is not right, given it was ordinary British people who donated in the first place and thus is owned by us. It should be given to a museum. just shows how nuts the management is. they obviously see this as a business venture promoted by expensive glossy mailshots. :{ also the main man on £75K - defies belief. :ugh: seems to have been a bit of a gravy train for some. c ya XH558............

[742-xx]

I seem to remember the conspiracy theory lot claiming that XH558 would do one or two display seasons then be sold to the USA.
They claimed this before it was even fully restored.
The suggestion was that it would be easier to operate in the US.
But surely the Lottery people wouldn't be happy about this ?

In all honesty something needs to be done regarding the long term, it's getting silly.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The DOC's (direct operating costs) and the FOC's (fixed operating costs) are far too high in this climate. There is no way that these two sums can be controlled sufficiently well to justify 558's future. It is, therefore, entirely wrong to continue to bleed willing donors for just one more year - because if this is a bad year, think what 2011 will be like.

Pleming must grasp the nettle and kill the project now before it becomes a millstone. Give it to Duxford - whoever - but do NOT take any more money from enthusiasts. They can remember with affection that they have seen her and will again on the ground if the trust stop trying keep it in the air. Its days are over. The sorry truth, but they are. It is now UNAFFORDABLE.

[sled dog]

Well said Pop

[hurn]

It is, therefore, entirely wrong to continue to bleed willing donors for just one more year - because if this is a bad year, think what 2011 will be like.

Pleming must grasp the nettle and kill the project now before it becomes a millstone. Give it to Duxford - whoever - but do NOT take any more money from enthusiasts.Sorry Pop, but as one of those enthusiasts I'll be the judge of whether I want to donate any money and not you. :=
As it stands, I'm still happy to donate what I can afford as and when. If others don't want to then that's their choice.

If ultimately there's not enough money then so be it, but I certainly wouldn't expect nor wish VttS just to give up while there's still flying life left in the old bird.
I just hope once retired it never ends up at Duxford.

It is now UNAFFORDABLE. It probably never really has been, but then most old classic jets aren't. Perhaps we should ground them all to appease you?

[JEM60]

Why would Duxford want it? They already have one. Joe public, when they come, will simply see a Vulcan. They would not know, and would probably couldn't care less whether it was the last one flying or not
As for operating in the States, why would that happen.? It would have to be a very rich, or, dare I say it, foolhardy individual who would finance this, a non- American aircraft.

[PPRuNe Pop]

hurn,

Did I mention you in particular? You do what you will with your money is your own affair - everyone will agree with that.

However, the fact remains that 558 is itself bleeding to death. It cannot be supported any longer - their own figures show that. I haven't manufactured them, I haven't pulled them out of thin air - they are fact. That said 558 cannot survive without a continuous flow of money, That, will surely dry up.

Income/costs = profit/loss.

As for its future home, it will have to go somewhere!

[BEagle]

On this occasion, I disagree with you, Pop.

Just sent them a little more; there's still hope.

But I want to see the whole thing run more professionally - and I'd also like to know what the good Dr Pleming does for his reported £72K income from the organisation.....

[PPRuNe Pop]

That's OK, BEags, I am sure you are not alone. However, Pleming did say that he must have £400k by the end of October - a mere 4 days away. How well has he faired? The last I heard was that he received a total of £100k up to 20th October! What about the other £300k? If he has insufficient funds to continue I imagine he would be duty bound to act decisively.

I have operated aeroplanes for too long to know that they are more greedy than a herd of sheep and if you ain't got the money you ain't got an operation. Since commerical aviation took to the skies it has ever been thus. If a benefactor did appear it would need a lot more than £400k anyway.

[spekesoftly]

Pleming did say that he must have £400k by the end of October - a mere 4 days away. How well has he faired? The last I heard was that he received a total of £100k up to 20th October!Their website now states over £250k received to date, with nearly £150k still needed.

However, a somewhat confusing quote from Dr P says that they only need £300k by the end of this week!

“By Thursday evening, we need to be sure that we will have £300,000 by the end of the week. If there is any doubt, she will follow Concorde into permanent retirement or be sold to a collector almost certainly abroad,” warns trust CEO Dr Robert Pleming.

[jumpseater]

Anyone else noted that on the 'future' voting you can vote sequentially and there's no restriction on the number of times you can vote. :ugh:

So that result'll be an accurate reflection of the publics true opinion then ... :D

Needless to say, one was scrupulously fair in 'testing' :ooh:

[HOUSE BOAT]

Ref spekesofltly's comments I thought a quick update for those who cannot visit the website, for whatever reason.
as from Thursday morning we needed around 130K with about 25-30K coming in daily this week, with four days to go we will get very close to the target, but will this be enough for the Trustee decisions?
All I kow is the closer we get the easier it is for the Trust to decide which way to go - so if you want to keep XH558 flying, for whatever the reason, make a donation.

[andrewmcharlton]

I hope they pull through for the sake of the engineering staff and volunteers but a bit disturbing to see the good Dr stating it has just 2 years left even if they make it.

Has the fatigue life been gobbled up prematurely?

[hurn]

For those interested the current amount donated as of 28th Oct is £326,428.

[Groundloop]

[QUOTE]For those interested the current amount donated as of 28th Oct is £326,428.[/QUOTE

And if Pleming was to donate his £73k salary to a good cause the target has been met!

[sled dog]

The whole operation should be staged in the West End, as it would be hailed as a great farce . I just feel sorry for all the truly dedicated personnel, air and ground, who might be on the street shortly.

[Tempsford]

If the aircraft has just two years of flying left, then the annual cry for help will only be heard one more time. As the life span for the aircraft is now defined, then this is a different issue. Let's all contribute to make sure it does run its course. I have commented about the operation in the past, but have always commended the grass roots part of the team.
I would suggest that extending it's life (if at all possible) after the two year period has ended is not considered as the costs involved will be outside the capability of the operation. There are a number of Vulcans in the UK as we know. If the truth be known, we don't need any more Vulcan museum pieces. So, what to do with it? To Bruntingthorpe (if they want it) would be probably the best option where it could be kept in a taxiable condition. The guys at Bruntinghtorpe have a level of expertise that is rapidly dimnishing in a number of other areas. Please don't let it go overseas and end up like the Shacks at Paphos.
In two years let's give XH558 a home in the UK where it will be looked after, but only after it has given as many displays as possible to as many people as possible. There are already hundreds of thousand of people who would never have seen this aircraft flying if it hadn't been for the efforts and generosity of many dedicated people.

Temps

[andrewmcharlton]

Am I missing something? Wasn't the plan to return her to flight for 10 years and now we're getting 4/5 maximum?

That being said and given the requirement to create a legacy museum on the Cold War, something which they patently don't have the funds even for that, where does TVOC stand on the legacy obligations? It was a condition of the HLF Grant if I recall.

[jindabyne]

In two years let's give XH558 a home in the UK where it will be looked after, but only after it has given as many displays as possible to as many people as possible. There are already hundreds of thousand of people who would never have seen this aircraft flying if it hadn't been for the efforts and generosity of many dedicated people.

I really don't think that those of the new 'big society' will give a toss!

[Lister Noble]

I said I wouldn't,but just might give them one more bit of my OAP pittance!
Hoping I can maybe live on bread and water for a week or so:sad:

[Mike7777777]

Odd way to run a business.

[peter272]

Any bets on when the next 'pay up or the Vulcan gets it' campaign will start? ;)

[andrewmcharlton]

I think they need to navigate past the next few days before they can plan the next one....

[andrewmcharlton]

I have just come off the ‘phone to our Chairman of Trustees, and I was able to confirm that yesterday, the Trust was in receipt of over £57,000 in donations. I am delighted to let you know that the Board of Trustees now believes that the Appeal has sufficient momentum to raise the remaining £75,000 before the end of the month.

As the result, he has agreement of the Board of Trustees that the Trust has sufficient liquidity to continue to trade, and accordingly the notices to our employees have been rescinded
.

From their website. Total still says they are approx £75,000 short.

[JEM60]

I await with some eagerness, the begging post on 1st of October next year.!!

[Winco]

Yes, we have fallen for it and we have been conned yet again!!

What did the ad say... something about the aircraft WILL BE GROUNDED FOR GOOD if we don't get £XXXXXX by the 28th October.

Did they get it? NO
Has it been scrapped NO
Has the project been saved yet again YES
Is Pleming still in a job YES

Utterly disgraceful and shameful. He should hang his head in shame.

JEM60 - it won't be October next year, it will be August/September next year.

Lister Noble - I admire your loyalty Sir, but I do feel that you should spend the money on yourself, and not give it to the good Dr every year.

[sled dog]

How was the project saved ,yet again , if the required money was not raised ?

[andrewmcharlton]

Because Doctor Bob and the Trustees say so, despite saying something else previously.

Coincidentally with just a day to go they were almost exactly short of the same amount as they pay the good Doctor...

[deltapapa]

They are currently just under £32k short.

[staplefordheli]

The BBC East Midlands News at 22:15 just reported tonight (Sunday) that its now safe for another years full display season

I can see the Beeb buying into this project, its better than East enders for drama

[Croqueteer]

:confused:I've watched to Vulcan thread for years, but still don't know what Dr Pleming is supposed to have done wrong. Can you, wingco, as the leading attacker, enlighten me?

[andrewmcharlton]

hmmm.....presided over a project that has stumbled along from year to year without a realistic business plan,without transparency, without on time accounting, issuing statements at odds with HLF, taking a whopping salary to name but a few maybe.

Sorry Winco hope I haven't nicked your thunder....

[robin]

If I were to make a comment

There is no on-going finance or support in place after 5 years. Each year we have seen the staff issued with redundancy notices and the begging letters stating that the Vulcan would be grounded or sold unless a certain sum is raised. This week the deadline passed without the funds being raised, but the project is on-going.

The constant threats and begging is showing diminishing returns so the next one will show even less income.

Dr Pleming has made a good living out of the project - 3 times my income - but the Vulcan is still not secured. A football manager in his position would have been sacked years ago

[SpringHeeledJack]

Perhaps these posters who post against the 'whip round' every year are merely stating the very obvious facts and like the pantomime season about to start in our theatres nationwide, they know the story as it's become so formulaic. There is no doubt that running an enterprise such as the Vulcan is no easy task, if done well who would berudge Pleming his wage ? However it seems as though things are never clear and to go to the line each year begging plaintively for funds from the public and their donations, well......

I think that most people that have watched XH558 in action these last few years have marvelled at the job done by the maintenance/engineering staff and volunteers to keep her in the air and if goosebumps were pounds there'd never be funding worries. That said, especially in these chaste times, to have a business plan that relies on the last minute sob story/begging drama that comes at this time of year is at best naiive, at worst reckless.

Vulcan won't be flying for too many more years due to fatigue life/certification issues, so it would be nice if every donated pound were used to it's upmost effect and that might well involve open source accounts to all the de facto shareholders (donaters) and perhaps a much reduced wage bill in certain less critical areas.



SHJ

[deltapapa]

issuing statements at odds with HLF,

AC is it possible that you had contact with the head office of the Lottery Funding and Dr P his local one?

This is what is says in the FAQs on the Trust site...

Have the HLF been asked for more funding?

Yes, the HLF have been asked for more funding, most recently at one of our periodic review meetings with our HLF East Midlands Region representative in November 2008. We understand that further funding will not be forthcoming because the HLF do not normally provide any funding for the ongoing operating expenses of their projects: they will provide grants towards specific objectives, like returning XH558 to flight, but not for keeping her flying. Also, we understand that the money available to the HLF has been going down in recent years, owing to reducing numbers of people playing the National Lottery, and the cash being siphoned off for the London Olympics. In the HLF?s own words - we've had our fair share! (4/09)

[Winco]

Croqueteer
Please tell me that you are joking when you asked this question??? You have read this thread for years and you don't know what I and many others have against Pleming? If you are serious, then you clearly know nothing aboout the TVOC fiasco and you have NOT read all of this thread!!
I don't have time to list the number of things I have against him and can only suggest that you spend some of your time reading this thread from start to finish. perhaps then you will have a better understanding of things.

colinwil
Again, you need to read yourself into this thread before spouting off. It was not I who said I would ride naked on a unicycle (I think a unicycle) with a rose in notable orrifice! If you are going to start your PPrune account off with accusations like that, do try to make certain that you know what you are talking about, it stops you making a fool of yourself. There is NOT a gang of us who want to see it scrapped - far from it. What we want is someone who is remotely competant to take the project over and run it properly instead of stumbling from one crisis to another.

dp
My understanding is that, in a statement from HLF following a FOI question, the HLF were NOT asked for more money. Clearly there is a conflict in opinion here and perhaps as someone who is clearly close to the coal face perhaps you could enlighten us. More importantly, why was the project saved when the money/timescale line was NOT achieved. Would you agree that is was a con?? It just shows another weak leadership chapetr in this joke of a project.

Andrew - no problem at all. I wish i had more time this morning to enlighten them both! But you feel free to carry on; it's a very long list!!

Winco

[deltapapa]

Hi Winco, I know the HLF said that they hadn't been asked and Dr P said they had hence my question could the approach have been made to different offices?

It always seems as tho' I'm defending them doesn't it? That's not the case I just question where people get the info from..

With regards to the decision about funding my understanding is....

The appeal was schedule to run for the whole of October. The Trustees met [or had a conference call] last Thursday and because they were confident that the funds could be raised by last night, judging by the rate at which the daily funds were being raised, they gave the go ahead.
I assume it was scheduled for Thursday so they could give bad news by Friday if that's the way it was going to the work force, as that would have been their last working day....

Whether you believe the timing worked out so well is for you to judge!! I can be as sceptical as anybody - but I have no proof it didn't.

[sisemen]

Speaking as an ex-Vulcan associate not living in the UK I hope to goodness that she's still flying when I next come over in 2013 (and yes, I'm doing my bit).

However, silly question, has anyone given any thought of trading on the "oohs" and "aahs" on the crowd line by walking up and down with buckets ready to receive the "Fiver to Keep Her Flying" at every appearance?

It's got to be better than Pleming's worn out strategy.

[BEagle]

As far as I know we're still waiting for Wingco's naked video

No, that was 'Tombstone' - he reneged on his promise, so cannot now be considered to be an officer and a gentleman. On 7 Aug 2006, he actually promised: I will walk around every into each Sqn crewroom at Marham, naked with a rose between my arse cheeks, singing a song of your choice if the Vulcan ever flies again.When 558 landed from the Return to the Sky flight, I rang a colleague in the project and suggested that he should let the press know. Unfortunately, like 'Tombstone', he wimped out....

[Croqueteer]

:(The trouble is, Wingco, that your emotive language makes me think there is a personal angle to this, which questions the validity of your statements. Why is collecting for the Vulcan "Begging" when collecting for a charity is not? Surely Dr Plemming's salary was decided by others, what is it, anyway? As you say, I don't know the ins and outs of the case, but very little hard fact has appeared in this thread. I'm not even a Vulcan man, four Griffins was my mount!

[andrewmcharlton]

HI DP, you are entirely correct that the message could have been coming from two sources. However, as Chief Executive it is behoven up you to make sure you have any public statements accurately represented. When I did the FOI request, as a former legal type bod, I drafted the questions so as to have little scope for ambiguity and sent a copy to Dr P and crew as a matter of courtesy and even spoke with him personally on the dog and bone.

It's a minor issue in the great scheme of things but does suggest "we asked and they said no" position which is not true according to the HLF.

In a previous generation on management at TVOC I asked the same questions of the lovely "Bond Girl" who declined to answer.

I seem to recall that the trustees originally, and apologies if I have this wrong, included FI's husband/ partner?

It's perturbing to see the strife and angst that the fabulous engineering crew must go through and the cyclical nature of "we're skint, save us or else by day x, we're saved, we know we can and will do better, we have a great new business/sponsorship plan that's sustainable, we're skint."

I thought I read that Dr P planned to step down, just like I thought I read 558 was going to fly for 10 seasons, now apprently he's cosy at his desk and she has 2 years left?

[deltapapa]

Andrew I agree it does appear to be very rare that the same thing is quoted twice especially when talking about anything to do with figures!! I remember watching the TV report a few days before Roll Out in 2006, when they interviewed the then 3 main management personal and each one quoted a different amount required!!


Dr P did indeed say he was going to step down but a the time he was also chair of the Trust, to which of course he did step down....

[robin]

Having had contacts with the Lottery people in the past for our own little project, the rules are quite clear.

Your proposal is considered alongside other bids for money. Grants are given for capital costs not for on-going expenses. It would have been written quite clearly in the terms of the original grant when and how the money would be paid to TVOC, but that the project would not get future funding.

Part of the process is that the business plan would have been considered including how the project would become self-sufficient or have a defined end date. It would also have to demonstrate that the organisation would have income generation as part of the plan.

Finally, there should have been milestones in the project to release each stage of the funding.

Lottery funding is quite tightly controlled as it is a very politically sensitive issue. My chums tell me that they have to bear in mind the attitude of the Daily Mail headlines whenever they take a decision, but behind it all is the minister at the time.

They are using Lottery funding as a piggy-bank for their pet projects, and, for the next 2 years, that will be the Olympics.

TVOC stands little or no chance of getting further funding, and I'm sure the TVOC team have been made aware of that in very clear terms.

[Mike7777777]

Is the current business plan in the public domain? Work force must be very loyal.

[deltapapa]

Vulcan To The Sky - 2012 and beyond.... (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/126/82/2012-and-beyond.html)

[Lister Noble]

Dated exactly a month ago?:confused:

[andrewmcharlton]

Dated exactly a month ago?

Indeed. Just as they were serving notice on the staff and saying they had no money. Just as they tell us there are just 2 years left.

Impressive communications. At least the staff notices are rescinded and I hope they are all able to sleep a little easier for a little longer. They don't deserve this.

[Mike7777777]

Vulcan To The Sky - 2012 and beyond.... (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/126/82/2012-and-beyond.html)Thanks for the link. Is there something downloadable in spreadsheet format for fettling?

[Winco]

dp

Thank you for the explanation of what happened last week. I understand that a statement was due to be released on Monday pm about the state of the project, but I can't find it - has it been delayed??

Croqueteer

My emotive language is displayed when I see the British public being taken for a ride. And Dr Pleming is/has and continues to take them for a ride IMHO. I have no problem whatsoever in collecting for the Vulcan. Over the years I have donated to it many times. The difference is that with the Vulcan, we have this annual ransom note saying: 'we need X by X and if we don't get it, then it's dead, finished, scrapped' and that is what frankly hacks me and very many others off.

This latest ranson comes exactly one month after the '2012 and beyond' plan was written. What's that all about? Why didn't they disclose the plan a month ago? It might have given more people an incentive to donate! But no, it didn't happen, and it is yet another example of strange management that seems to plague this project. Lack of transparancy I think is the good terminology for it

I can only suggest that you get a (large) cup of tea, sit down in a comfy chair and read this thread from start to finish. You will then see some of the goings-on that have occurred over the years and you perhaps can get an understanding of why people like myself want to see Pleming go for good, and someone with a bit more 'savvy' take his place. I think he is incompetant and I think that many of his 'right-hand men' are also incompetant, but they are still there in post. Still drawing large salaries, despite their shortcomings.

Go and put the kettle on!!

regards
Winco

[deltapapa]

Winco, it would appear no update has yet appeared :ugh:

Mike777777 - no spreadsheet that I am aware of

[Winco]

Croqueteer

See what I mean?? This guy is being paid £70K+ of the money that you and others have donated to pi$$ you all about!! It is a joke wouldn't you agree??

Thanks dp for the info, I think it yet again only proves the point about Pleming and his (lack of) managerial skills.

[deltapapa]

update now in

Vulcan To The Sky - Thank you! (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/139/82/Thank-you.html)

[forget]

John Sharman. Chairman of Trustees, Vulcan to the Sky Trust

... and I very much hope that you will see your Vulcan flying next year!

I know what he meant to say - but I'd have worded it differently. :rolleyes:

[AndoniP]

Why is collecting for the Vulcan "Begging" when collecting for a charity is not?

because keeping something going for the pleasure (and supposed education) of others is vastly different to collecting to feed starving children in poor countries. i know where i'd rather send my money.

they're keeping it flying for educational purposes are they? yeah, right, i bet loads of people attending airshows have learnt something new about the cold war :suspect:

i don't want to see the vulcan stop flying like many of you but there comes a point where it seems that the public are being taken the mickey out of, then thats time to leave them to it with my blessing, i'm out.

[Dr Jekyll]

they're keeping it flying for educational purposes are they? yeah, right,


Every time it flies it's a reminder that with teamwork determination and sheer persistence an apparently impossible task was successfully accomplished.

A good lesson for anybody.

[AndoniP]

you talking about black buck 1? this thing has been flying to remind everyone who watches it about one bombing mission?

i thought it was to educate people about this being one of the instruments of the cold war... something that lasted for decades.

either way i'm not getting into a slanging match about the vulcan's achievements. part of the reason the lottery grant was given was that this would educate children about the cold war as written in the objectives of the project, i've not seen the Falklands mentioned, unless someone can correct me?

and while i'm at it, how effective it has been as an educational instrument.

[JEM60]

Just seems to me to be a small bunch of enthusiasts convincing other people to pay so they can see their toy fly!!..Bit of a con-trick.........

[Mike7777777]

Lots of whinging on this thread, bigger picture appears to have been missed by many ;)

In years gone by, there were two main attractions at British airshows, the BBMF Lanc (because it's historical and there's only one) and whatever Harrier(s) turned up (because after more years than I care to mention, I'm still convinced that the Harrier display involves some warping of the laws of physics, particularly the bowing and exit stage left).

The Vulcan has changed this, as per many quotes there are shows with the Vulcan and there are average shows; but it needs to do the thing it excels at: noise, noise and more noise please. If this is accompanied by some minor destruction of the runway then that's fine by me, but how can this be converted to income? Transparency is paramount, to reduce the bickering and negative comments (which may or may not be justified), and - from the limited info available - if Big_Sponsor is not forthcoming then the income from Gift Aid must be the focus of attention. The margins can offer survival.

In closing my pontification, I offer the following from somewhere on the internet:
many years ago my now wife and I stood at the end of the runway at Biggin Hill when the Vulcan took off, not only did it make a hole in the runway from the engine thrust but it made her charlies wobble - never forgiven or indeed forgotten

[sisemen]

I ask again - just how difficult would it be for 6 volunteers to wander up and down the crowd line at every 558 appearance with buckets ready to trade on the "oohs" and "aahs" with a 'Fiver to keep her Flying'??

At the very least someone ought to be considering it for a cost/benefit analysis and/or trial to see what the likely income stream might be.

[deltapapa]

Because most airshows won't allow it!! With the exception I believe of the ATC.


Collections may only be made at the stall. You can't allow it for 558 and not for others.

Saying I believe RIAT made an exception a number of years ago and allowed collections in their car parks long before 558 took to the air.

[BEagle]

Well, it is indeed good news - thanks to all those who still have some faith in the project! I'm still unsure why the salary bill is so high though - or why Plemming should have netted £72K.

The VTTS stand was doing very brisk trade throughout Farnborough week - even though it was a very long way from the rest of the show area. So I would imagine that a lot of folk do indeed wish to support them. As for donations, to my mind keeping the Vulcan flying is far more worthy than, for example, donating to Richard Noble and Dead Dogs' 1000 mph car project..... Thrust SSC, the first supersonic car, really was a 'first' for Britain - but Bloodhound does seem rather pointless. Although I wish it good luck.

[Dr Jekyll]

you talking about black buck 1? this thing has been flying to remind everyone who watches it about one bombing mission?

I'm taking about the achievement of getting 558 restored and back in the air when most of thought it was impossible.

[Feathers McGraw]

Well Beags, some of us have put our hand in our pocket for both '558 and Bloodhound SSC (and Thrust SSC before it). Both are worthwhile in their very different ways....

[Muzzey]

A question to the learned ones here at PPRuNe

One of the stated ambitions of TVOC is for '558 to take part in the 2012 celebrations by participating in the planned flypast over central London, whilst I am very keen to see her doing so - It is my understanding that there are strict restrictions on what can fly over London in this way - single/multi engine, commercial/military/private etc etc
Can someone who knows better than I please explain what the rules are - or if my brain has made the whole thing up!

[JEM60]

I'm not sure what all the foreigners attending the event would make of an aged cold-war killing machine overflying them. What possible relevance to the celebration of one of the world's top sporting events would that have to them.
Nice for the Brits, if some of them knew [or cared] what they were seeing, but to everybody else, zilch.

[andrewmcharlton]

Being cynical, there will be a set of rules which will be ignored for the purposes of leveraging money out of folks in a vane hope it is going to appear, notwithstanding it is inappropriate or irrelevant as JEM says.

Delighted they made their target and the ground team have their jobs saved. I hope their might be a few who decide to fall on their swords for the good of the project but seems unlikely given the form book.

Hope the team who escaped the redundancy notices have a good end to the year and Christmas as they thoroughly deserve it.

[Muzzey]

Ok - thanks for the replies chaps, I believe it's the queens birthday rather than the olympics that the flight is planned/hoped for but - point taken, we will see I guess?

[Tankertrashnav]

I'm not sure what all the foreigners attending the event would make of an aged cold-war killing machine overflying them. What possible relevance to the celebration of one of the world's top sporting events would that have to them.
Nice for the Brits, if some of them knew [or cared] what they were seeing, but to everybody else, zilch.


Well one or two Vulcans acted as test beds for the Olympus engine - that's relevant, surely? ;)

More seriously, you may as well say that any flypast is irrelevant to the opening of the Olympics. But if you are going to have one, then a big noisy beast like the Vulcan will make it all the more impressive.

[sooty655]

I'm not sure what all the foreigners attending the event would make of an aged cold-war killing machine overflying them. What possible relevance to the celebration of one of the world's top sporting events would that have to them.
Nice for the Brits, if some of them knew [or cared] what they were seeing, but to everybody else, zilch.

I think you'll find that the phrase "2012 celebrations" refers to The Queen's diamond jubilee, not the Stratford International Sportsfest.

[JEM60]

Thanks Sooty. My mistake.

[MrBernoulli]

I stated, long before 558 was restored to flying condition, that it couldn't last. It won't. That is just the way it is. At the very least, you cannot continue past the point where you run out of Vulcan experienced pilots (and engineers, too perhaps?). But the money will eventually not be there. An aircraft like this takes loads of cash to run, but you all know that. And the language of the regular begging comms have all the hallmarks of a con - threats about what will happen to the aircraft, "It will end up overseas!" - unless you cough up ..... again! It can't last folks, and it won't. Prepare yourselves for the bereavement. I like a noisy, spectacular aircraft at an air display just as much as the next man, but this one can't continue. Sad, but true. In the meantime your cash is being siphoned away .......

[Dr Jekyll]

Against stiff competition that has to be one of the arrogant and patronising posts ever seen on Pprune.

It's blindingly obvious to everybody that it will run out of money sooner or later, it's always been obvious. What we want to do is see it flying as long as possible.

Do you really think those of us who support the project imagined it would keep flying into the 22nd century and you are the only one who realised all such projects have a limited life? I'm pretty surprised it's kept going as long as it has.

[Agaricus bisporus]

As a matter of interest can anyone say how much this project has cost in total, and how many hours the aircraft has flown since it's resurrection?

[sisemen]

Because most airshows won't allow it!! With the exception I believe of the ATC.



Dear Airshow Organiser,

If you want to see the Vulcan display at future airshows (yours included) then you will please allow my team to walk the crowd line collecting donations to keep the girl flying. The appearance of this aeroplane brings lots and lots of people to your show who wouldn't otherwise come and allows you to make some money. Think about it.

Yours sincerely, etc etc

It would appear that Pleming is to lateral thinking as brick is to floatation.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why so coy with simple statistics? Is this a sensitive area?

[andrewmcharlton]

It's difficult to get a clear idea without all the accounts but as an off the cuff estimate, take the lottery funding at approx £2m and then the same again each year in cash / contributions and donations I would imagine.

Don't forget the value of the debt now secured on the aircraft to Mr Walton's business and to Marshalls for the purposes of calculation. I am sure someone has the numbers.....

Must be knocking on towards £11.5m so far. According to TVOC website t was £7m at return to flight and then 3 more years.

Call it a generous £11m for say 120 hours? £91,000 an hour....a snip.

[Mike7777777]

There is debt secured on XH 558?

[andrewmcharlton]

There are two charges on the aircraft. The first charge relates to monies due to Marshall Aerospace and the second to the former Brunty Landlord.

I'm not sure if this is with the agreement or acquiessence of HLF as it could in certain circumstances, depending on the nature of the charge lead to loss of ownership or the appointment of an administrator.

Sadly, no full details are published.

[A2QFI]

So, as 2011 is here where is the Vulcan and what is the financial situation? Will we see it flying anywhere this year?

[echogolfc.d.]

I do not post on here very often, but feel that I can answer the question raised; with some authority as I am an active volunteer fundraiser with the Trust & Club.

The Aircraft is currently based at her winter home which is a hanger at RAF Lynham and is currently undergoing her annual winter service.

Regarding finances I am not privy to any detailed answers concerning this. I do know that funds are, and always will be very tight. We receive no funding from government, department save that of gift aid for UK taxpayers donations, thus we need to raise money entirely from the generosity of the large numbers of supporters who love to see XH558 in the air and wish to do so for many years to come.

The best place to obtain upto date information is via our official website Home | Vulcan To The Sky (http://www.vulcantothesky.org). If you would like to help us keep this wonderful icon of British excellence in the air there are links that will show you many of the ways possible.
From my position as recycling co-ordinator I welcome used toners/inkjet cartridges and mobile phones from which we gain a regular and increasing income.
Please do not hesitate to contact me regarding this either via a pm on here or by email:- [email protected] thank you.
Subscribe to our online newletters, join the club, read our forum, all via home page.

Hope this information is usefull and Wishing all of you a very happy and prosperous new year.
DLW volunteer vttst/club.

[bad bear]

Anyone know where 558 will go when Lyneham closes in a few months?
bb

[hurn]

Doesn't Lyneham close sometime in 2012?

I'd guess that they'd mostly use Brize Norton again during the airshow season, but where they go after that is anyones guess.

[dixi188]

According to Wiki, Lyneham flying ends on 30 Sept. 2011.

[echogolfc.d.]

I have just looked on our website and there has been no information posted to date. If you log on to it goto club section and log on to the forum. Most parts are public domain but a few others are members only.
If you join the club you can have access to all of the topics posted.
The team put out regular news bulletins as well so I highly recommend the small investment.
Fund raising is a constant ongoing requirement, all donations however small are welcome.
Sorry I cannot give more info' but as soon as we know I will put a link on here.
Regards to all.
DLW. Volunteer and club member.

[echogolfc.d.]

Hi David,

The simple answer is, they need to go to our Home Page and subscribe to our
weekly newsletters Register | Vulcan To The Sky (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/register.html)

Or, they can look under "latest news"


Cheers,
Ian.


​Ian R. Homer Marketing and Events Manager

Vulcan to the Sky Trust
1 and 2, Venture Court, Dodwells Road, Hinckley, Leicestershire. LE10 3BT.


[email protected] (http://uk.mg40.mail.yahoo.com/dc/mailto%3A%25e%25)


Home | Vulcan To The Sky (http://www.vulcantothesky.org)
I sent an email to my supervisor earlier in reponse to your questions.
The above is in reply to it.
Hope it helps.
Regards

David Lee-Williams.
Volunteer fund raiser Vulcan to the Sky Trust and long term supporter of the programme.

[QuestorPhil]

One of the other enthusiast sites suggests that Wittering has been chosed as then next home for the Vulcan. Should be lots of spare hangar space!

[A2QFI]

If there is hangar space will it be provided free of charge? In any event, as Harrier flying stopped in December there would appear to be no need for ATC and crash services to be provided any longer.

[echogolfc.d.]

Please folks be patient and use the link I gave you earlier. This is the official site and when contracts etc are in place the newsletters will provide the information.
There is alot of speculation around at the moment but until things are finalised the Trust feel it is only right not to issue press releases/newsletters regarding this subject at the moment.
Patience is a virtue said my Granny (99 when she died). A very apposite way of handling things. (ref Santa claus if I remember rightly:ok:)
Regards David

[hurn]

Popular 'rumour' on the web seems to be a move to Wittering in April and operating from there during the summer. In which case I don't suppose they'd need a hangar, well not unless they plan on staying for the winter as well.

Obviously going for a more central location so it's easier to get to all those Northern shows! :E

[Evanelpus]

Popular 'rumour' on the web seems to be a move to Wittering in April and operating from there during the summer.

OOhhh, I hope so. Just down the road from Witt, so will see 558 come and go.

[A2QFI]

This does not address the question of who will provide and pay for fire, crash & rescue and ATC services? The aircraft might be able to do without a hangar but where will the spares and equipment needed for operation and maintenance be kept?

[mr fish]

vulcan is to relocate to wittering on APRIL 1st...honest:ok:

[echogolfc.d.]

I will believe this information when I recieve confirmation from the Trust via their website/newsletter!!!!!

[maffie]

Taken from a message sent via facebook today....
Matt
(didn't they know about the VAT going to 20% for their parts earlier??)



'News from XH558, the last flying Vulcan'
Ambitious display season needs your help

Thanks to the generosity shown by all those who contributed during last October’s appeal, and to those who have purchased from our expanding range of merchandise, we are approaching the completion of XH558’s winter service. She is in excellent condition and will be taking to the air much earlier than in previous years, allowing us to visit more airshows across more of the country. All thanks to your support.

But I have to tell you that due to factors beyond our control, we see that we risk running out of money ahead of the air shows themselves.

One significant reason is that the VAT regulations applying to large non-commercial aircraft like the Vulcan were changed with very little warning at the beginning of January. In practice, this means the sudden imposition of 20% VAT on all the parts and services for the maintenance of XH558, which up until then were zero-rated. Added to this, our fuel budget is now nearly double that originally planned.

Finally, we are close to committing to the production and delivery of an exciting new stage of our educational programme that will be available countrywide in the autumn. We have already delivered education packs for 7-11 and 11-16 year olds that have been very well received. If we raise an additional £50,000, not only will we extend the audience to all Key Stage age groups, we will also be able to offer the package nationally in an award winning format - a core educational objective.

Help XH558 take-off in March

When we add these extra costs to her ongoing operational expenses, we need to raise an additional £350,000 by the end of May to ensure that XH558 arrives on the air show circuit with stable finances. This amount is rather smaller than in previous campaigns and we have longer to raise it – a sign of the growing strength of the Trust – but that doesn’t mean that we can fly XH558 without your support. Your contribution is vital.

Can you spare £5.58 each month – the price of a gallon of petrol – to keep XH558 alive? This will entitle you to have your name on the Summer Season 2011 plaque that will be fitted ahead of the main display season and will be unveiled with a special ceremony once she is on the ground in front of the public. Like the Winter Service Plaque and the Restoration Plaque, it will be proudly displayed wherever she lands and will stay with her at her permanent home, celebrating the generosity and commitment of her supporters. Recognising the additional commitment of those supporting the Summer Season campaign, you will also be entered in our monthly Flying Fund Draw where you can win cash prizes every month. We will also send you a colour A4 certificate, recognising your generous support.

Every donation makes a difference and takes us closer to seeing her fly as part of the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee celebrations in 2012, the year that is also the 60th anniversary of the first Vulcan flight and the 30th anniversary of the Falklands Conflict.

Thank you in advance for your support and for your commitment to helping XH558 remain, the last flying Vulcan.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Can you spare £5.58 each month – the price of a gallon of petrol

Was that before or after the price of fuel doubled?



Who the heck is running this thing? MoD Procurement?

[sooty655]

Currently £5.85 per gallon (imperial) at my local Sainsburys, so they aren't that far out.

[simplethings]

Bloke in the pub reckons EGCN sometime in the next couple of weeks! :)

[echogolfc.d.]

Your source knows more than I do.

[nacluv]

Currently £5.85 per gallon (imperial) at my local Sainsburys, so they aren't that far out.
You can get Jet-A/JP-n/AVTUR/whatever from your local Sainsbury's?
:)

[echogolfc.d.]

Anyone like to land a Vulcan at your local Sainsburys? :E:E

[sooty655]

Currently £5.85 per gallon (imperial) at my local Sainsburys, so they aren't that far out.
You can get Jet-A/JP-n/AVTUR/whatever from your local Sainsbury's? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
No, but then I wouldn't describe any of your alternatives as "petrol". :p

[bruntyworker]

The word around Bruntingthorpe is she is going to live at an airport up north to the tune of £20,000 for the season she could of gone to RAF wittering for £10,000 i supposed it was settled over a game of golf may i suggest DLW gets a job with us as we know more than the volunteers for the Vulcan do:{

[simplethings]

Looks like the bloke in the pub was right!! EGCN roundabout the 28th.

[bruntyworker]

Just had an email they crew in on the Vulcan at 12pm and they hope to land at 2pm at Robin hood airport:D. I bet just a chosen few will be there with plenty of booze and food flowing, Andrew must be trying to keep it secret as everyone i've seen who use to volunteer for the Vulcan have not heard or been told anything as one of them put it, it's only called the people's plane when they want money but you never get clear answer's from any of them when you ask about future plans :ugh:let's hope Andrew and Robert dont choke on there sausage rolls and cucumber sandwhich's :O

[jetpipejohn]

I live about 6 miles from Finningley, I'll be there to welcome her to new home!

[XV148]

I wonder why they want to keep is so secret ?? I live a few miles from Lyneham and would appreciate the chance to see her leave, however no responses to my enquiries and nothing published, very strange as she is funded by the public!!

[Grimweasel]

Vulcan leaves RAF Lyneham at 1200L today for the last time ;-( Circuit of the airfield prior to departure to new home. Will be sad to see her leave

[Evanelpus]

I heard they were still begging for money and were only half way towards March's target with 3 days to go.

Could be a permanent feature at Doncaster.

[alisoncc]

If she is going to live at Finningley they will have to add the 230 OCU markings. (Happy days) :ok:

[SpringHeeledJack]

Off to spend time at Robin Hood (and his merry men) Airport EGCN.

Supposedly



SHJ

[bubblesuk]

She's airborne.

[deltapapa]

Just had an email they crew in on the Vulcan at 12pm and they hope to land at 2pm at Robin hood airport. I bet just a chosen few will be there with plenty of booze and food flowing, Andrew must be trying to keep it secret as everyone i've seen who use to volunteer for the Vulcan have not heard or been told anything as one of them put it, it's only called the people's plane when they want money but you never get clear answer's from any of them when you ask about future plans let's hope Andrew and Robert dont choke on there sausage rolls and cucumber sandwhich's

From my experience your post is well off the mark. In all the time I attended first flight do's or even press releases there was never anything of the sort on offer - The first flight crew never even got so much as a cup of tea!!! they and the management did however work extremely hard talking to the press and giving interviews

[Noah Zark.]

Just been on local news showing it landing at Donnyport.

[simplethings]

Will have to heed the Oracle in the pub more closely! He reckons this has been known about for at least a month!

DP - leaving the crew aside, you can bet your life that Edmondson et al will be doing the rounds with much mutual back slapping and copious amounts of corporate glad handing for a job well done..........all on the backs of other peoples hard work and sacrifices! Bloody good show, blah, blah, blah! Peoples aircraft my ar5e."Just give us your f@$&ing money so we can bask in the glory for a while longer! Oh, and by the way, why do you need to know where my aircrafts going?! Dig deep or we'll sell it to the Russians!"
:mad:

[forget]

Who's Edmondson?

[srobarts]

Who's Edmondson?
Engineering Director (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/faq-contact/operating-company.html)

[ilesmark]

Have a look at the pics

BBC News - In pictures: Vulcan Bomber arrives in South Yorkshire (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-12894041)

[lightning_lad]

Here we go again, 'need another £225000 by April or we fear its is flight here will be its last'
Although its a beautiful sight to see flying, I for one am sick of the threats of grounding and continuos bleating on for money to fly this thing, and to pay executives saleries, I think its now got beyond reality.
Stick it a museum and put the exhorbitant amounts of money it costs to fly this thing to good, think how many smaller aircraft that could sponser to get back in the skies.
Its only a question of time before its retired (again) anyway, the publics money is being used to fund life-styles for a few at the top, and pay for big boys toys.
Get a Shack back in the skies!

[bruntyworker]

Unlike you i can remember first flight watching all the work that the volunteer's did from sweeping the pan's moving ground equipment walking up and down the runway colecting FOD all these guy's got was a thank you from Colin Marshall (logistics manager) and from what i remember i used to see the flight crew in the canteen having lunch and you can bet they never payed as the Vulcan office had a tab. Andrew is the most ignorant person i have come across he would sooner walk the long way round than speak to you he was forever messing my bosses around which he still does to this day.Just glad i dont give any of my money to the likes of him to waste on hotels and employing people with no real purpose a change of top management would do the Vulcan a world of good someone who actually knew what they were doing may actually make money instead of wasting it :{

[deltapapa]

Unlike you i can remember first flight watching all the work that the volunteer's did from sweeping the pan's moving ground equipment walking up and down the runway colecting FOD all these guy's got was a thank you from Colin Marshall (logistics manager) and from what i remember i used to see the flight crew in the canteen having lunch and you can bet they never payed as the Vulcan office had a tab. Andrew is the most ignorant person i have come across he would sooner walk the long way round than speak to you he was forever messing my bosses around which he still does to this day.Just glad i dont give any of my money to the likes of him to waste on hotels and employing people with no real purpose a change of top management would do the Vulcan a world of good someone who actually knew what they were doing may actually make money instead of wasting it

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry! BW you obviously have an axe to grind.....but your memory fails you, not too mention you would have lost the bet, I know the Ops Manager wandered down the runway and spoke to the volunteers as did the Chief Pilot, and I distinctly remember him always getting receipts for his sandwiches from the diner!!

And as an aside no food was arranged on the day of first flight before hand because they were all busy with other things it was overlooked and I was the one who went to the diner to arrange sandwiches for the aircrew CAA & MA personnel which were eaten in the ops office over a working lunch!!!

Your opinions of the management are of course yours and non of my business and I can't say one way or the other whether they thanked the volunteers

[Skipness One Echo]

Let's spend the money on getting the Duxford airliners under cover instead!

[Zero-1]

Here we go again, 'need another £225000 by April or we fear its is flight here will be its last'
I for one am sick of the threats of grounding and continuos bleating on for money to fly this thing, and to pay executives saleries, I think its now got beyond reality.

Yes... Here we go again.... bleating on ..... by people who do not know what is involved with flying a complex aircraft.

Stick it a museum and put the exhorbitant amounts of money it costs to fly this thing to good, think how many smaller aircraft that could sponser to get back in the skies.

This is C**P..... if this aircraft stopped flying then the finance for it would evaporate.... these people who have funded this aircraft would not fund anything else because majority of them are not interested in any other aircraft project.

Just like the moaners before who said in the past that the money should go to the air ambulance..... it just wouldn't happen...

Most of the people who have supported the Vulcan are not aviation enthusiasts and they will only support the Vulcan..

Get a Shack back in the skies!

BAe Systems just will not support the "Shack" therefore no Design Authority.. ergo no flying Shack..... ditto Lightning, Buccaneer and any other complex British Ex-military aircraft

[echogolfc.d.]

For reference I was a volunteer and still am. Onfirst flight day, as on the preceeding days I was commuting from home (35 miles each way). Was on site at around 0430/0500 to ensure that the press and others were looked after. I then went on to assist with traffic control (both road and air[onground] and other duties, culminating with having the privelidge to be on the banking to watch first flight. It was an experience I will never forget and I did these things as our team do these things as a matter of love and respect for something we fervently believe in.
As for food etc, It happened when we had time...........Mine as I remember was stewed flask of coffee and a burger at some point.
I might add, we adjourned to the local pub afterwords, then a journey home still burning adrenaline, and another trip on the Friday to help clean up the mess so that the folks at Brunty could get on with the mundane stuff having witnessed a piece of history taking place the previous day.
You BW are entitled to your opinion, its a shame you have to hide behind a pseudonym. I do not have that problem. My name is David Lee-Williams and I have been involved with the organisation for sometime.
We volunteers do what we are able because WE WANT TO. Please do not slate of my friends. Thank you.

[Zero-1]

I personally thanked all of my team for a job well done on that day, as Dave said we were there from 5.30 'til very late and if you have ever tried to keep the media under control? it's like herding eels...:rolleyes:

BW you have only just joined this Forum but you seem bent on causing trouble... why?..... what has VTTST done to you? ....wouldn't they give you a job or something?

Just remember you are casting a nasty shadow over all of us at Bruntingthorpe both workers and volunteers... please pack it in.

Is it me or is there a large gap in posts from 31st Mar 13.41 to 1st Apl 01.20....?

[Evanelpus]

I heard they were still begging for money and were only half way towards March's target with 3 days to go.

Well, did they?

[Evanelpus]

Sorry, should have included this in my last post


We volunteers do what we are able because WE WANT TO.

That is true of any organistaion who 'employs' volunteers. Where I work, the volunteers are brilliant. the one who works with me apologises for taking holiday such is her commitment.

I don't think anyone has a beef with the guys and gals who volunteer to VTTS, it's got more to do with the perceived mismanagement of the project by people who really should know better.

As someone who spent a very pleasurable 10 years around Vulcans, it hurts like hell to say that I feel it's time to stop pumping money into this project. It's a huge drain on voluntary resources and I think the money would be better spent on preserving and operating other aircraft.

Quick question. With all the money that's been pumped into this project from day one, how many different aircraft could that money have been used for?

[Zero-1]

As someone who spent a very pleasurable 10 years around Vulcans, it hurts like hell to say that I feel it's time to stop pumping money into this project. It's a huge drain on voluntary resources and I think the money would be better spent on preserving and operating other aircraft.

Quick question. With all the money that's been pumped into this project from day one, how many different aircraft could that money have been used for?


Sorry....The money pumped into this project from day1 would not have materialised for any other aviation project[s] and if this aircraft stopped flying then the finance for it would evaporate.... these people who have funded this aircraft for the last 10yrs would not fund anything else because majority of them are not interested in any other aircraft project.

Just like the moaners before who said in the past that the money should go to the air ambulance..... it just wouldn't happen...

Most of the people who have supported the Vulcan are not aviation enthusiasts and they will only support the Vulcan..

As to drain on voluntary resources? there is very little as the CAA originally said that no volunteers were allowed to work on the airframe so all the engineering staff are employed or contractors..... most of the volunteer team they had at Bruntingthorpe, now seem to be working at Beech Restorations..

[Evanelpus]

As someone who spent a very pleasurable 10 years around Vulcans, it hurts like hell to say that I feel it's time to stop pumping money into this project. It's a huge drain on voluntary resources and I think the money would be better spent on preserving and operating other aircraft.

Quick question. With all the money that's been pumped into this project from day one, how many different aircraft could that money have been used for?


Sorry....The money pumped into this project from day1 would not have materialised for any other aviation project[s] and if this aircraft stopped flying then the finance for it would evaporate.... these people who have funded this aircraft for the last 10yrs would not fund anything else because majority of them are not interested in any other aircraft project.

Just like the moaners before who said in the past that the money should go to the air ambulance..... it just wouldn't happen...

Most of the people who have supported the Vulcan are not aviation enthusiasts and they will only support the Vulcan..

As to drain on voluntary resources? there is very little as the CAA originally said that no volunteers were allowed to work on the airframe so all the engineering staff are employed or contractors..... most of the volunteer team they had at Bruntingthorpe, now seem to be working at Beech Restorations..

When I said voluntary resources, I meant money not carrying out the maintenance work on the aircraft.

You are obviously, passionately involved with this project. However, I think that passion has clouded your judgement somewhat.

I've never subscribed to the 'air ambulance' scenario. When this project started all those years ago, it was understandable that a fundraising effort was needed to get the project on it's way. I don't think those people who did give to the appeal expected to be asked so many more times for additional funds. That could be down to people not understanding what a four jet engined aircraft needs to keep it flying.

I stopped giving ages ago because I felt that VTTS were never completely transparent about it's dealings (I know a lot of my mates also went the same way because of this). The Trust, rightly or wrongly, earned a reputation for being very clicky and secretive, not a good trait when you ask for thousands of pounds from Joe Public.

Whichever way you cut the pie, the Vulcan is an expensive folly. Only time will tell if the public are willing to continue to support her.

[simplton27]

My BW you do talk a load of bull. I dont normally take part in forums but i have been reading some threads and then i came to your's. As i am a lead volunteer for the Vulcan i had the priviledge of been in the lead vehicle every time she came out of the hanger. Colin Marshall gave us the timetable and he was and still is always polite. As for the aircrew they thanked us all and gave us the time of day when ever they had spare time infact my wife has got photo's of herself and the aircrew on different occasions especially Dave Thomas he was her favorate.
So to put it bluntly i think you should channel your pathetic opinion some where else on a subject that you know about :uhoh:

[deltapapa]

The latest Newsletter explains why they didn't make the move to Doncaster public.

[Zero-1]

You are obviously, passionately involved with this project. However, I think that passion has clouded your judgement somewhat.

WAS closely involved..... I was involved with the aircraft from 1994 until I retired from the Trust in 2009 as Access/Visitor Centre Manager...........

How do you consider that it has clouded my judgement?

Being a junior member of the management team and the face of the project to the general public for so many years I believe that if anything I have a clearer insight into the facts of what the public would probably do


I've never subscribed to the 'air ambulance' scenario. When this project started all those years ago, it was understandable that a fundraising effort was needed to get the project on it's way. I don't think those people who did give to the appeal expected to be asked so many more times for additional funds. That could be down to people not understanding what a four jet engined aircraft needs to keep it flying.

There is the whole problem with the project.... The planning was for public subscription and Lottery Grant to kick the project off... with the expected & promised industrial support to appear later, in the form of Corporate Sponsorship.
Great idea but the aircraft didn't fly until Oct 2007.. slap in the middle of the worst recession in god knows how many years..and the companies so supportive 6months before.. melted away.. leaveing the project cash strapped, a situation that has persisted to this day..... thank god for the little people who have saved this aircraft so many times.....


I stopped giving ages ago because I felt that VTTS were never completely transparent about it's dealings (I know a lot of my mates also went the same way because of this). The Trust, rightly or wrongly, earned a reputation for being very clicky and secretive, not a good trait when you ask for thousands of pounds from Joe Public.

The Trust was like any other small engineering company and it made sense to keep it's confidentiallity as any such company would do. I can say that from the inside it was not clicky or secretive, maybe a little un-worldly

Whichever way you cut the pie, the Vulcan is an expensive folly. Only time will tell if the public are willing to continue to support her.

Too true only time will tell lets just hope:)

[airsound]

Here's a really nice, well researched article by Dominic Holtam in the Torygraph. Slightly odd that it appears in the Motoring section, but none the worse for that. (I think it's because of the Bruntingthorpe/cars connection)
The last Vulcan - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8428972/The-last-Vulcan.html)

airsound

[India Four Two]

From the Telegraph article:

No Vulcan ever flew with a live nuclear weapon



Is that true?

[airsound]

I believe that no V-bomber ever flew with a live nuclear weapon, and that is sometimes quoted as an indication that MAD* actually worked.

airsound

* mutually assured destruction, for anyone of a young persuasion

[A2QFI]

Slight shame that the article didn't mention the generosity of the Northern business man, Sir John Hall, who gave over £1 million some time ago when the project was within a week of folding.

[nacluv]

I believe that no V-bomber ever flew with a live nuclear weapon, and that is sometimes quoted as an indication that MAD* actually worked.


I think you would have to qualify that statement to include the word operationally. Otherwise the Grapple (and other tests) Valiant(s) would contradict it.

[airsound]

Quite right, nacluv. (Well spotted, double-oh-seven.)

airsound

[Zero-1]

Rumour has it that the entire fleet was "loaded for Bear" during the Cuba Crisis..... anyone around at that time know for certain?

[ozleckie]

At Cottesmore they were loaded but not dispersed. I was there from '61 to '64 and to my knowledge no aircraft ever took off with a live weapon on board.

[deltapapa]

Slight shame that the article didn't mention the generosity of the Northern business man, Sir John Hall, who gave over £1 million some time ago when the project was within a week of folding.

Not wishing to open the whole funding debate again - but I have no recollection of the above donation.

Are you A2QFI, thinking of Sir Jacks Haywoods £500K donation of 2006 or is my memory failing me?