Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)

[harrogate]

Not so much interesting as irrelevant.

That's a bit like saying "interesting to see the Iranians hanged all their gays at the weekend without any protests".

Different laws innit.

[Safety_Helmut]

For starters TVOC are having to deal with the Campaign Against Aviation.
Any particular basis for that, blanket stacker, or just quoting from earlier posts ? :bored:

S_H

[GeeRam]

Any particular basis for that, blanket stacker, or just quoting from earlier posts ?

In fairness, it is true, essentially the person responsible for overseeing the SA Lightnings/Buccs is the same person who spent 10 years trying to get those same Lightnings flying in the UK, and finally gave up, sold his toys to Thunder City and then moved out there to oversee the rebuild and training of their team there and getting them in the air.

However, the SA rules are still quite restrictive on the Lightnings ops there, and it's only because of the close proximity of Cape Town Int and the coast that allows them to operate the way they can away from populated areas.

I also agree though that there's really no valid comparison between the Vulcan situation and the Thunder City operation...:rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Any particular basis for that, blanket stacker, or just quoting from earlier posts ?

S_H

Ah bless, SH made a funny based on the fact my former illustrious trade trade are known as blanket stackers.

Did a grown up help you with that?

As GeeRam says, the CAA hardly have a great reputation for supporting attempts to operate military aircraft types in civilian ownership.

[Safety_Helmut]

That's pretty witty stuff THS. I asked a sensible question, so I will ask again again. Are you speaking from any experience or are you just recycling the comments of others, as you so often seem to ? Stick to a subject you know something about pal ! :)

GeeRam, agreed, there may be some basis for holding that view of the CAA. Personally, I don't share it. However, THS has a habit of spouting on subjects that he knows very little, and of recycling other peoples comments and views.

S_H

[Safety_Helmut]

For starters TVOC are having to deal with the Campaign Against Aviation.

Perhaps you could pass on some of your expereiences of dealing with the CAA to the chap below.

The Secretary of State of Transport has appointed Sir Joseph Pilling to lead an independent strategic review of the CAA. The review would welcome comments from organisations or individuals with an interest in the CAA. Further details can be found on the DfT web site.

Have a look here: http://www.caa.co.uk

No, I thought not.

S_H

[The Helpful Stacker]

That's pretty witty stuff THS. I asked a sensible question...

No you did not. You made a facetious comment as a vehicle for what you believed was wit; ie: the use of 'blanket stacker' in a comment directed at me in place of my standard login name, which you actually managed to use in the post I quote from.

To be honest I don't really give to hoots about being called a blanket stacker, I've been called it by bigger and better people plenty of times, I do object though to the fact you are to convey its use as part of a sensible comment rather than the childish "he's a stacker, what would he know" that it is.

THS has a habit of spouting....

Can you point out these many examples or are you just 'spouting' as usual?:=

[Dis Gruntled]

I can tell you, though, that the latest iteration of this not unfamiliar crisis came about largely because the major engineering contractor overspent its contracted price by significantly more than 100%, partly because it had badly underestimated the time required for the work.

Surely the latest begging for funding has not been caused by the engineering contractor without whose very generous wiping of debts the project would of died in the middle of last year. Or is this another case of biting the hand that feeds you.:ugh:

The blame unfortunately can only be sent in one direction TVOC. Why again and again reading these posts all people seem to want is information, and they bury their heads in the sand and hope a magic benefactor appears with a bigger and bigger wad of money is beyond me.
:*

[kwh]

And although you might wish for much more openness about many things, the fact is that most of the unwillingness to talk in public is, and always has been, due to serious issues of commercial confidentiality. And that’s not confidentiality for the Vulcan people, but for the big companies that are supporting the project.


That is, if you don't mind me saying so, complete and obvious rubbish. Particularly in the context of 'confidentiality for companies supporting the project', whose shareholders would love to know that their company was secretly and expensively supporting a charitable exercise for no PR or publicity benefit. Not.

Commercial negotiations with potential but as yet unsigned sponsors may be confidential. Everything else should be absolutely transparent, to a fault. There is no question that should remain unanswered, no dark corner unlit.

'Don't worry, everything is fine, although the project is about to fail in two weeks unless you all donate a lot more right now and some of what we've told you in the past would seem in hindsight to have been quite possibly untrue, but we are all doing a great job, we just can't tell you about it because it's a secret, so you have to trust us or you are just being negative' just doesn't wash, when we are where we apparently are now.

The lack of transparency (not at an engineering level, at a financial, a commercial and an organisational level), along with the ongoing assertions that 'everything is fine, we are doing a great job' would seem on their own to be prima facie evidence that everything isn't fine, and that somebody isn't doing a great job. Transparency is free. Cheaper and easier than secrecy, certainly. So I find myself wondering what there is to hide.

'Nothing'? Then be transparent. No transparency, no confidence from me, no more money from me. Even if it later turns out you really are doing a brilliant job in secret. Generally, though, people doing a great job are all in favour of transparency, people riding gravy trains, or making a pigs ear of their jobs often aren't...

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

the CAA hardly have a great reputation for supporting attempts to operate military aircraft types in civilian ownership.

So who exactly does support the 100 or so ex-mil jets, ranging from JPs to Sea Vixen that are currently operated in civvie hands in the UK? More than any other European country I believe. Maybe not enough thought & support has been given to their own project by the VOC?? Maybe certain parties have been blinded by enthusiasm and nostalgia, without seeing the reality of the HUGE money pit that is an aircraft such as the Vulcan? Do they really think they can run it on air display revenue and donations alone?

PS Airsound is not Dr Robert, as I was also "swanning around at an airshow in Belgium" last week and saw both of them there.

[SFCC]

Oh dear....what a sad, tatty thread this is turning into.
I kept my head down whilst the Vulcan thing was on-going, but after the first flight, I got out my wallet and made a pledge. Until it flies again, there will be no coin of the realm eminating from me.

It strikes me that there are significant financially questionable undertones associated with this project. Maybe sight of the official accounts would do nobody any good.

Who knows.:confused:

[vickyv]

I heard that Marshalls have wiped the massive debt owed to them as well. I think the public should be able to view a complete list of exactly what all the money has been spent on, including lottery funds, especially as they are asking for yet more money.

But then it really is pointless any of us having opinions on the project or asking for information because it will not be forthcoming, not while there is stuff to hide.

[Dis Gruntled]

But then it really is pointless any of us having opinions on the project or asking for information because it will not be forthcoming, not while there is stuff to hide

Surely opinions are the only things we have going for us at the moment seeing as there are certainly no facts coming out of TVOC. Surely even the few remaining sycophants on here and UKAR (You ask for people not too hide behind false names then are too scared to let bona fide people on have TVOC got too you as well?) must have some doubt about the project!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Things must be bad now - even the last public voice of TVOC has gone 'deep and silent'

Airsound, where are you?? Why no comment? Have you seen the light?

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

[airsound]

TSM - I do have another life, and I do have to earn my living. I am not being paid by VOC or VTTS, or VTST if you want to call it that.

Nevertheless, because I do believe that this is a very worthwhile cause, I am trying to get people to throw some light on some of the questions being posed.

Aside from anything else, I seem to be virtually the only person posting at the moment who has anything good to say about the project. Which means that it is very hard to keep up with the volume of viciously 'anti' posts, many of which contain significant inaccuracies that fall within my knowledge. But I personally do not have time to deal with them all.

I am doing my best - but it's pretty depressing trying to deal with all you guys at the same time. And I think that your attitude in particular, TSM, is not particularly helpful. But then, it never has been.

airsound

[The Swinging Monkey]

airsound,

Thank you for that, and it's good to have you back!

Of course, if there are so many 'significant inaccuracies that fall within my knowledge' then we are looking forward to you explaining them all away to us and reassuring us that everything is fine and dandy in TVOC world. Sadly, you are the only one saying anything good about the project, because you are the only one saying anything about the project, and even that is pretty little!! Maybe you could have a word with your good friend Pleming, and ask him to say something 'good' about the project eh?

I note that you have the time to, yet again, pass comment on my 'anti' attitude, but can find no time to answer any of the searching questions posed by other members on this forum. Not to worry, I am certain that you will find the time soon to tell exactly what is going on, how great things are, and what a wonderful job everyone is doing. We all look forward to that.

It would be nice to hear it from Pleming or another 'official' Brunters spokesperson, but as we know, they 'don't do that' do they?

Anyway, like everyone else here, I look forward to your next explanation in due course.
Best wishes
TSM

[dakkg651]

Airsound

I think you are missing the point here.

I don't there is many (if any) posting here that is 'anti' in the respect of seeing this wonderful aircraft flying on the airshow circuit again.

What is important is the fact that a large number of us posting here have donated substantion sums to this project, not only in the initial stages, but also on subsequent occasions when completion looked very much in doubt.

So when my teenage son asks me what has happened to his hard earned paper round money that he willingly sent to TVOC, I have to tell him that I have'nt got a clue because none of us know what is happening. So we have to assume that no news is bad news in this case. Are you really surprised that people are getting extremely hacked off?

Dak

[vickyv]

The TVOC needs 150k to carry on until the end of March (85k for the engineering company to send people to certify the aircraft fit for flight and 70k to operate the TVOC for 1 month). The TVOC then needs 350k + to get the aircraft display certified (by the 1st June)

How much money is required after June 1st ? How much money do they owe companies for all the work they have carried out to achieve first flight ? I know others who want the aircraft to fly but could never work out the viability of the project regarding funding.

If the TVOC get the money to flight the aircraft, it would be wise to land it at Duxford or somewhere else similar as i don't think it will ever fly again after the end of March, lets face it nobody is interested anymore !

[andrewmcharlton]

Ok folks, here is the scoop.....

At the weekend I sent a Freedo of Information request to the Charities Commision and the HLF to request such details as we may be entitled to. I also, as a matter of courtesy copied in the PR company for TVOC and to Rusty Drewett.

To my amazement, Dr Pleming called me on Monday evening and we chatted for about an hour or so. I put all of the points to him that have been raised on this forum and he gave me the benefit of his opinions and gave substantive answers to most of the questions posed.

Some of the responses he gave were in confidence due to commercial issues and also some could be deemed as legally priviledged as they refer to various confidential arrangements.

I won't disclose those points as I gave my word they would remain confidential.

I work in the legal profession and having listened to the answers I was given I would agree with Dr Pleming on the requirement for confidentiality on those points and I am sure they will not and should not ever see the light of day. All I can say publicly is that if you know what I was advised, and you accept it, you would be of the opinion as I am, that whilst there may be some serious communications issues there is no impropriety whatsoever and the actions taken by TVOC in respect of the day to day running of the trust and their statutory obligations are correct.

Dr Pleming was kind enough to invite suggestions on how to improve the communications and said he would take on board on suggestions I may wish to make and discuss them with the trustees and colleagues alike.

I don't want this to be just my opinions and it would seem appropriate for anyone who has a practical and workable suggestion as to how to improve communications and disclosure, please contact me and I will consolidate them all into one email to Dr Pleming for his consideration and report back on any responses that don't breach confidentiality.

My conclusions at the end of my chat with Dr Pleming were that the TVOC has made proper decisions as to its statutory obligations, there does seem to be some substantive progress and improvements in their position and that with the right communications in place anyone who longs to see 558 fly again would be sufficiently re-assured to continue supporting the project.

I can't and wont elaborate on what was explained to me but having been ultra sceptical at times I am re-assured. Please PM me any thoughts or ideas and I will make sure they are passed on expeditiously.

Finally, a thank you to Dr Pleming for responding so quickly and it shows that they do take their obligations seriously, despite poor PR and appearances. Well done that man.

[dakkg651]

Andrew

Thanks for that.

There could just be a tiny bit of bate appearing in my breath but I wont be holding it just yet.

[Magnersdrinker]

Can they not ask the National Lottery for funding ?

The lotto gives millions to completely utter crap projects every year , this is a worthwhile thing that im sure 95% of British would love to see airborne again. Maybe they have already got some in that case forget this post

[airborne_artist]

Can they not ask the National Lottery for funding ?

They have had money from the Lottery already; the HLF = Heritage Lottery Fund (http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/AboutUs/)

[Evanelpus]

magnersdrinker

95%, I think that figure is way, way too large. The vast majority of the British public couldn't give a flying **** if the Vulcan ever flies again. It's people like you and me that have an avid interest in aviation (nostalgia in my case, having serviced them in the past) that want to see the aircraft back in the sky.

[airborne_artist]

95% of British would love to see airborne again

Magners - you need to be over 40 to remember the tin triangle airborne - not that those under 40 are automatically excluded, but few <40 will know anything about it. Take out the "I hate all noisy aircraft except the one going to Alicante with me on board" fraternity, and you don't have many left :{

[The Swinging Monkey]

Andrew,

What is the Scoopp??

Whilst I am delighted that Pleming contacted you and gave an explantion as to what is going on, I am equally dissapointed that you have chosen not to enlighten any of us here about anything at all! Was the whole conversation/explanation confidential, because you say that only some of the responces were in confidence? And with respect, why were you given access to privilaged information that the rest of us can't have or know about?

Has your request under the FOI act gone through and do you intend to publish the results here?

It is alright you now telling us that you have been convinced that things are OK, but the rest of us would still like to have some answers, something you were in full agreeance with not so very long ago! What has changed?

When I saw your heading 'scoop' I was truly expecting some hard facts and answers to some of our questions. Instead, I find that we are no further forward and probably even more confused than before.

So, whats the story then Andrew?? What is your scoop?

Do tell us, please!

TSM

[ANW]

Perhaps someone should ask Virgin to use it for bio fuel testing (a must see Vulcan picture (http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/AvroVulcan617sqd4.jpg))


I do find vickv's new set of figures interesting, from a financial bottomless-pit point-of-view. (Post # 729)


Re a Duxford alternative landing ground: is a LDA of 1219m for RWY 24, or 1222m for a RWY 06 arrival, sufficient for a Vulcan, bearing in mind that the adjacent M11 motorway, which cuts through the original runway, was constructed after the arrival of all the large jets now in residence.

[daddy flm]

swinging monkey

i have pm andrew with a few questions on the real state oh 558 to see what mr plemmings versions of events are

depending on the reply from him i will then decide to enlighten people on a few snippits theat i know are true

yes for tvoc i am who u think i am i will not hide

been called a liar and conspiritor in the demise of tvoc (we got it flying its up to you to keep it there )and not been allowed to give my defence to you at the meeting about the suspension is bang out of order

i will not get enbroiled in back stabbing and a slagging match but free speech will be offered

[Dis Gruntled]

The next phase in the new life of XH558 takes the aircraft from today up to its first public display. In funding terms, we estimate that it will cost about £575,000 to meet our target of returning her to public display on 1st June, an amount which is consistent with our estimated gross annual running costs of about £1.6million

Whilst the largest proportion of the £575,000 pays for the monthly £70,000 baseline costs of salaries and other vital items, the steepest part of the new challenge is the upfront outlay of £85,000 required now to restart the test flight programme. The costs of the display work-up flights and aviation insurance are the other major elements making up the total.


15thJan 2008

Isnt it amazing how now £150k seems to be the final hurdle (take note bubbles)

Quotes from Dr Pleming tvoc website

[nacluv]

[ (a must see Vulcan picture (http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/AvroVulcan617sqd4.jpg)) ]

Wow - must have filled up at the diesel pump by mistake!

Or did the early ones run on coal? :)

[andrewmcharlton]

TSM,

Stay calm !

Not everything that was said was confidential far from it. The gist of the discussion was that on advice from professionals they have not been able to fulfill certain statutory filing requirements. The advice that was given to TVOC is obviously confidential but it isn't a question of not having any accounts or being negligent in not filing them.

HLF are fully engaged in the ongoing management of the project and are monitoring everything which is spent and apparently the budgetary forecasts and cashflows.

I have asked HLF and the CC under the FOI to provide copies of minutes, notes, correspondence, applications et al which are not commercially confidential and I will share that with everyone, unedited when I get it. I don't know what the timescales will be but I am happy to keep everyone in the loop.

I didn't get any priviledged access, I don't think so anyway. I just emailed and asked questions and they (Dr Pleming) then called me. Ask and ye shall find. I did previously email in frustration many moons ago when the illustrious Felicity was at the helm and got no response so I suspect there is a change of attitude.

It was clear that none of the TVOC top brass read PPrune and I got the distinct impression that they were unaware of the groundswell of opinion.

It was acknowledged by Dr Pleming that they should be doing better on their communications and he was genuinely interested in learning what the donating public wanted and asked me to let him have thoughts in an email, hence opening it up to everyone.

I criticised the whole lack of accountability, transparency and the pass the hat mentality and suggested some more frank (within whatever legal / confidential limits) and regular updates would go a long way to assuage concerns and transparency as to finances. I was told that subsequent to first flight the budget was much more definable and subject to funding there should be a lot less hidden nasties although they can't be eliminated totally.

Dr Pleming said that he felt that setting smaller reachable financial milestones was important to keep things moving step by step rather than setting a long term "we need £x million" which would turn everyone off and the arrival of any significant sponsors might reduce / vary that and make the next milestones easier, so no need to panic everyone right from the off. I don't agree with that and for the avoidance of doubt I still believe that communications have been massively mismanaged and transparency and frankness with full compliance and disclosure is essential.

I am convinced though that it is worth fighting for and that the lack of accounts etc is not through any neglect of wanton ommission but on professional advice.

We have a line of communication now open and I would hope that if you have ideas of what you want to see and hear let me know and I will pass it all on to see if something can be done to improve things.

I know a couple of you have been kind enough to email me today and chat on the phone, thank you. Any questions you want asked, let me know. As soon as I have the FOI responses I will post them for you to read and send to anyone who wants them.

[Exrigger]

andrewmcharlton: What I find amazing is the comment
It was clear that none of the TVOC top brass read PPrune and I got the distinct impression that they were unaware of the groundswell of opinion
this has been the whole point of the comments here and on the TVOC forum, it is also apparent he has not read that forum on their own web site, prior to post deletions and then hiding the forum behind closed doors where we still are kept in the dark.

Perhaps he might answer the burning question for the club membership; why when we are asked to dig deep again and ask what they are doing to secure funding we get a big fat silence. When we, the membership, come up with initiatives of our own recognicence we are castigated for causing problems, as we apparently are upsetting people that have allready been contacted which makes it our fault that funding is not forthcoming.
So TVOC management passed this on to the membership when ?, or told us who you would like us to contact on your behalf to add support for the project when ?.

[andrewmcharlton]

couldnt agree more, it is on the list to go to them and has been mentioned by almost everyone as a source of anger.

[daddy flm]

hi guys

i for one support the engineers atempts to keep their house in order
it must be hard when you think you are getting shaffted on both sides

good to se the anti-dets went ok i assume as no cards have been raised

smiler have you got anymore pocket money yet to give to mr m

or are you still working on it as i told you last week detachments look good for march and c130j course most of april dont know how its all going to fall in place

to meet the 1st of june

[Exrigger]

daddy flm; I don't think that there is anyone who has at anytime criticised, or moaned about, the engineers, they have done a sterling effort, in fact almost the impossible and deserve all the praise we can give them, Smiler gives engineering updates when there is something to be written, I look forward to his latest re. the anti det runs.

[daddy flm]

With respect exrigger i will agree with you on that point the true supporters of the project the general public have not
the doubts of our integrity and indeed personal attacks have come from the tvoc.

The suspension of approvalls was described by tvoc management as a systematic campagne to discredit the tvoc by the ma engineers as we all want to work for tvoc as we are unhappy with our current employers.

Total and utter bull

This hid the fact that they had messed up and got caught to which they have paid for. The approvalls were reinstated for anti-dets to be carried out which to smilers credit they carried out this week.

So to the somewhat rosey updates to state that the caa and approvall issue did not exsist and the delay in not test flying was down to the weather etc is a bit away from the truth you must remember smiler and co report to the party line of all is well when we all know it is not the case

I also think that the back stabbing and tit for tat postings have a lot of relevant issues but agree that we all should regroup and support the return to flight and let tvoc management proceed with trying to find funding the longer they take to find the 85 - 100 k needed the cost will continue to rise as more things come up on out of phase or scedule maintenance like safety equipment ,seats etc this will hike up the time and price also the availability of spares and manpower will be an issue.

[PPRuNe Pop]

So long as everyone realises that anything even approaching libel will be seriously frowned upon. Just a gentle reminder :ok:

So far everyone is thinking before they submit their post. Long may it continue.

PPP

[rs2kmk5]

If you would like access to the TVOC forum, why not just join up :ugh: - this provides a donation to the cause and gives all the access you could want, plus other benefits.

It may be frustrating to you that the forum is now for paid-up members, but hey, those of us already on there have in some small way pledged our allegiance to the cause simply by becoming paid up members.

I'm not belittling anyone who is not, or who does not want to be a member, or anyone who's not a member but has made a contribution to the cause to date, - but, please! For what it costs to become a member, and at the same time know you've contributed in some small way to the cause - what do you have to lose? :ok:

Freedom of speech? Surely as a site of aviation enthusiasts, why there is so much 'anti' I do not know. If everyone got behind the project, who knows what it would lead to? A shared respect? More projects reaching fruition? More A/C available for the display circuit? Happier enthusiasts?

[vickyv]

Daddy flm!!!!!
i would be very surprised if the tvoc management toe the line.they are too arrogant and acn't wait to get rid of ma so they can do their own thing.Then god help us.

[daddy flm]

well well vicky v

as you know i cant say anythinhg about the management the reputation proceeds them as one of the engineers all i will say that the lack of aviation expierience a few years in the raf and the rest in power stations decommisions and a ceo who was responsible for the rise of cissco computors i think they may now be aware that enthusiasim and indeed enthusiasts in the aircraft world is a difficult and differant subject.

the opertunities were there for all to see in the 2 1/2 years we were there but they never took any suggestions on board unless it came from the upstairs office

i dont know who you are but would like to get together to slip a few ideas to you and hammer in a few things

[forget]

Daddy, Could you please run your creations through a spell and grammar check before you actually post them. There doin my ed in. :bored:

[goudie]

Daddy, Could you please run your creations through a spell and grammar check before you actually post them. There doin my ed in. :bored:

Same here Forget. I'm not sure if this guy is for real. Certainly writing in a strange fashion.

[Cypherus]

If it is then something very traumatic has happened too the gentleman in question.

However whoever is making the posts or why, it does closley resemble the true picture of the yawning chasm that appears to exist between the TVOC board members and the supporters and general public.

The Board members have repeatedly ignored the overwhelming number of questions that have been levelled at them and their collective perfomance while in pursuit of the projects aims and whle I understand that a lot of what goes on will be both legally and politically sensitive the lack of direct response from them has at times led to a situation that has in the view of many hindered the support channel and has I am certain led many to either withhold or withdraw from offerings they may have been tempted to give.

The recent closure of the Forum too general public access so soon after the first flight has also led to concern at least amoung those I have spoken too which includes former Vulcan aircrew, now being replaced by a stagnant poorly laid out hard to reach heavily censored scruffy little web page tagged onto the TVOC website that bear little resemblance too the vibrant orignal which has more than probably led to many who might have joined and contributed now being left with no where to place that support.

Sorry but whatever the cause for this change it has not done the project one jot of good.

[BEagle]

It's also an UTTER pain to navigate! You cannot save the 'Forum' as a 'Favorite' - even though you might click 'remember me for future visits', every time you have to go through the 'Club area' and thence to the forum. Which itself is not the easiest to search.......

Still, my monthly contribution went out today.

[The Swinging Monkey]

I must be missing something here.................

Andrew,
Pleming and the rest of the top brass have never read Pprune?
Presumably, Pleming and the rest of the top brass have never read their own forum either eh? What a load of tosh!

And Pleming was unaware of the concerns amongst the public? More tosh!
I know dozens of people who have e mailed him and written to him, and who have not even had the courtesy of a reply from anyone at Brunters, let alone Pleming. It's shameful.

Andrew, do you think that the reason you got a call was becuase of your threat to write to the CC under the FOI act? It does seem strange that you now suddenly get a responce from him, or am I being a bit cynical?? Maybe we should all write to the CC and copy it to Pleming - maybe we will all get a call!

And the reason they have declined to honour their legal oblications in submitting accounts and reports to the CC was on 'professional advice'? What sort of professional advises you to break the law? Hmm, very strange.

And do I understand that we are now going to be asked for more money, but in smaller chunks eh? (to make it sound better!) And you say Andrew, that there is no need to panic? Does that mean that Plemings latest call of 'cough up or it dies' was a bit of a porky or just a bit misleading? If there is no need to panic, then presumably there are funds available. Or is there? No one in the public knows, because there are no accounts for any of us to see.

Dear oh dear, what a complete 'cake & ar$e' party this really is.

I have decided not to send anymore money until we are able to see the accounts and get a straight forward statement from Pleming about what the hell is going on. It is utterly disgraceful that a so-called manager of a project such as this, can treat the very people who pay his wages in such a shabby and insulting fashion.

TSM

[Nige321]

Pleming and the rest of the top brass have never read Pprune?


Post number 424 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222368&page=22)


The good Dr P is a Ppruner...:oh:

N

[daddy flm]

Spill check set two maximummy. Dislexia rules KO.

Traumatic events 2 1/2 years working for TVOC

[goudie]

I have a quick question...
Will 558 ever get finished and back in the air? All it seems to do is miss every deadline by miles and the next one set months away, by an even greater margin.
Is there any hope?
I support the charity but am geting a little fed up with keep hearing excuses and not the mighty birds engines spooling up for flight.
Any realistic update anyone??

No, not a new question but the first post on this thread.
Seems nothing's changed apart from the one flight.

[Dis Gruntled]

I'm not sure if this guy is for real.

I worked on the project as a contract engineer for the majority of last year until first flight and i can truthfully say that this guy is totally for real and has his finger on a very large number of pulses. So when he says something take it as red. I however have no connection with TVOC or MA now so am free too answer all questions (as long as its not libelous and i know the answers) so feel free too ask away

Dave Marshall
:)

[Dis Gruntled]

I'm not sure if this guy is for real.
This guy is totally for real having worked with him right up to first flight I can categorically say i would believe him over a lot of other people
:)

[goudie]

This guy is totally for real having worked with him right up to first flight I can categorically say i would believe him over a lot of other people

Apologies for my doubts.

[Dis Gruntled]

Hi Gregg
I was just indicating that having read your posts on ukar about the £150k being the final hurdle I am trying to make the point that it is far far from it. Pm me if you want to clarify it more.

cheers
Dave:)

[gareth herts]

I've posted a great deal about this on UKAR recently but feel it's about time to have my say here!

The sooner the powers that be at TVOC realise that only a clear statement clarifying exactly what the current situation is the better.

The current situation is serving only to breed mistrust and a loss of confidence in their ability to see this project through to its natural conclusion of seeing 558 in the air throughout the airshow season, for this year and years to come.

This past few weeks have seen numerous rumours, arguments, counter arguments and scandal thrown around on the subject of 558, all as a result of their almost complete lack of communication and transparency.

Most of us that support the project understand that complete transparency is nigh on impossible for any business - but significant numbers of people have recently contacted TVOC to ask questions, offer professional expertise with regards to PR and sponsorship and, in some cases, contribute with fundraising ideas. The vast majority of these people have received no response - not even a "no thanks". One guy even had a guarantee of regular funding from a group he had worked to get together and TVOC never even bothered to send him the paperwork he needed to get the money to them!

Whatever the truth behind the current situation, and it will all come out eventually, the current brick wall behind which they "appear" to be hiding does them no favours at all. Aviation enthusiasts are now doubting the viability of the project, those who have offered professional help (yes, including me) are tired of offering and the whole thing is beginning to look like a farce I'm afraid. Only today I have seen yet another "new" figure for 558's monthly upkeep (about the fourth different one that has been stated) and Dr Pleming has been quoted from RAF News as saying that "her immediate prospects look dire".

Any potential sponsors, if there are any, who are keeping a close eye on the project, must be wondering what on earth they might be letting themselves in for. Will they pay up for sponsorship rights and then be asked to put their hands in their pockets again and again? Does the management have a firm grip on the project or is it all going to go belly-up?

PR is all about perception and right now the perception of TVOC is not a positive one. I sincerely hope that can be changed and that the goal is achieved, but I don't believe it will happen unless they make some positive move with regards to communication and openess.

Gareth

[daddy flm]

I hope that you as a club member can actually provide evidence that prove my posts on ukar that i was removed for are indeed not true

The admin staff are aware of my feelings and inform me that you have a letter on the real plight of the project FUNDING TIMESCALES COSTS ETC

Please please pass this on to us all and kill the sad state once and for all or is this just hot air like the moaning in the pub after 1st flight about tvoc
elephants dont forget.:ugh::confused:

[Tim McLelland]

Personally, I've pretty-much give-up with this saga. As you can see from the posts on here, people are very keen to argue about all manner of different aspects surrounding the story but none of this does anything to provide a solution. As I've said on previous posts, the only way forward is to get a clear and concise response from TVOC as to what has happened and what is likely to happen, without all the half-turths, media statements and all the other stuff.

This can only be done by one person or one group putting direct pressure on TVOC, or putting similar pressure on HLF to demand proper answers from TVOC. Simply arguing amongst ourselves is a great way to vent frustrations, but it solves nothing.

Worse still, I note that on enthusiast sites (particularly UKAR), people are saying all kinds of stuff and setting-up their own "action plans", letters to MP's and so on. It's complete chaos and of course the result will be that TVOC simply ignore all this activity as being insignificant babble from "plane spotters". Scattered attempts at half-hearted action is doubtless motivated by good intentions, but it's going to do nothing.

I think the whole saga is a lost cause to be honest. If there are people all over the place making different demands, asking different questions, offering different suggestions and so on, this saga is just going to plod-along in ever-decreasing circles while TVOC happily do whatever they like, behind closed doors. It's pointless even getting involved.

I'm at risk of repeating myself again here, but unless someone with political, media or legal clout comes forward to spearhead a proper effort to find-out what's been going-on and what can be done, then there will be nothing for everyone to get behind, which means all this misery will just continue for no obvious purpose. It's utterly pointless.

[gareth herts]

It's a lost cause is it? This is a group of people trying their hearts out to do whatever they can to help this project keep going, and it is help given in an atmosphere of almost secrecy from the people running it.

If anyone at TVOC actually deemed such enthusiasts worthy of communication then maybe things would be better organised.

They might like to remember who has donated so much to get the project to this stage, and also who will be spending their hard-earned to go and see the jet if she ever appears publicly. That carries some clout shortly!

[andrewmcharlton]

TSM,

I am sure the response was probably initiated by the CC and HLF FOI request but if that's what it takes well so be it.

If nobody else has any constructive ideas to PM me about to include in a mail to them I will write off and see what if anything comes back and keep you posted.

By the way, professional advisors often give advice to do something contrary to a given set of rules and that advice is usually based on the consequences of not doing it being worse than the consequences of doing it. Advisors simply advise on the likely outcomes ultimately it's the clients decision and in my years in law I have seen some complete crackjacks take their own course against advice and end up much worse off !

C'est la vie.

[Exrigger]

Bearing in mind the diverse range of comments and putting to one side the anomalies re Mr Pleming and forums, it is true that the project would not be where it is if it were not for the club members, supporters, the general public directly or through the lottery, and as I said earlier the engineers who carried out the restoration.

Never forget the massive achievement to reach first flight of this type of aircraft and the support from OEMs, CAA, Marshalls etc to help achieve that, but let’s agree that TVOC management should have done/could do more to help the very people that support this project to help them.

If at the end of the day it goes wrong and the impossible dream turns out to be exactly that then at least those members and supporters will know they have done everything they could possibly do to keep that dream alive.

To those who have been upset by an over enthusiastic e-mail/letter overload, please believe it was not done out of malice and please do not turn your backs on the project because of it.

I do not want to be seen to be looking through rose tinted glasses, and I too have had a few rough comments aimed at me for some pertinent questions that I have asked and still not had answered, but I still support the project as best I can, despite being demoralised about the silence from TVOC.

I will add I am nothing to do with TVOC, I am merely one of those supporters/members who would love to see the first aircraft I worked on when I joined up back in the air.

[Flying Signman]

Just noticed that a "e-petition" with number 10 is running here...
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/VulcanToTheSky/

[Cypherus]

Post number 424 is something that those of us who have been watching and supporting this project for many years now probably found more than a little galling, as for Phleming being a Pprune member, sorry I just do not catch the relevance, joined Dec 2005, posted Aug 2006 total posts, (1). Made as a result of another’s insistence that he ‘Take a Look’ at the Forum. He then goes on too state in detail his feelings about Forums and his considered opinion on their content and how he can ‘Illuminate’ the thread.

Ok let us take a closer look at that,….. he states having read a ‘couple of pages’ he grasps the depth of feeling being expressed, Doubtful really, there had been a total of 421 posts prior to his single offering large numbers of which had been supportive others that were not relevant too the thread in content and among these a very small number which had expressed well founded arguments on the state of the project, going through them now one would be hard pressed to get the undercurrent of feeling from just a couple of pages reading so given that one must assume, hopefully that he read the thread fully and understood it and still reads it.

Overall however the ‘Good Doctor’ managed to construct a workable post consisting mostly of regurgitated information then currently available on the TVOC website, inclusion of a few additional figures gave it a wholesome flavour assumed fit for the members of this forum, however what also comes through strongly are certain facts that were mentioned at that time in passing but have since become very relevant too the situation the TVOC finds itself in currently regarding finance.

The project started with in the best tradition of such projects a structural survey, rightly this brought too light a number of problems that required rectification, but the one thing that seemed to have escaped this survey was the major item of the extent of the wheel well corrosion, Since this has been cited as a major reason why the project expended so much money over budget my question has long been why this item was not picked up on the survey originally as it turned out to be almost a project killer if the accounts are to be believed, having spoken to several aircrew about it since it became a feature it turns out that this one was well known about by the RAF, had been seen on a number of occasions before as airframes went through majors and could not have been overlooked by the TVOC.

Such anomalies as this run though the entire operation of the project and considering the hype placed on the professional approach taken by the TVOC towards engineering it leaves one asking more than a few pertinent questions about the management of this aspect of the operation and with hindsight goes a long way towards explaining why Marshalls cost the TVOC so much money, but not totally, that there seems to have been the assumption by the group that Marshalls were working too a fixed price seems on the face of it too have been very lax on their part appearing to be more concerned over a 20 month period in getting the insurance companies to talk civil to each other as to overlook this seemingly minor item on the agenda, I cannot blame Marshalls for this as they are after all a major aviation engineering company with share holders to satisfy, but I can question the boards naive approach too the matter.

Moving on slightly too the subject of information management or lack of it in the opinion of some, Phleming makes the point ‘I remain amazed that despite all our efforts, so many are still unaware of what we are trying to do But when these people are informed, they are totally supportive.’

I would not be surprised myself after all this time the TVOC is still as insular as it always was, still unable too grasp the significant essence of a forum in it’s ability to fully understand a subject, make cognitive decisions about the matter at hand and make a worthwhile contribution too the project, however I do feel they understand that such a forum could if slighted make life very difficult indeed for a management group entrenched as this one appears to be in a sense of it’s own righteousness.

This post was truncated due too the length and hardly scratches the surface of the problems currently evident in the resident board and management of the TVOC but it does I feel make clear that Dr Phlemings post was designed for the consumption of and to silence forthwith what he sees as the chattering classes and that his feelings too such an organ as a forum are those of distain and beneath worthwhile consideration, but he also makes it clear that these feelings obstruct his view of the fact that such a forum can make or break a project like TVOC.

In closing I personally feel that the current board has in the main done the job that it was tasked to do, and it is hoped be able too answer some of the glaring questions currently and in the past asked of it’s decision making process but should at this point consider stepping down in favour of a more dynamic group better suited too the forward operation of 558 as it is clear that currently this board is so detached from the grass roots supporters that confidence in them is draining away and at the very least it is now impinging on the future viability such as it may be of the original aspirations of the project.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Andrew,

Thank you for your reply.
Despite your assurances, I cannot possibly see how this prject can go forward and succeed under this current management. Public support has, without doubt, been severely damaged to a point where it may be irrecoverable (I hope not) and those in charge now need to step down, now!

I cannot help but think that this has also had a major impact on potential sponsors, who now view the project as a huge bottomless pit in which to throw their money. If I were a major business, then there is no way that I would even consider sponsoring the project. It is leaderless and is out of control. How can they possibly be given any sort of guarantee that they will get a return on their investment? They cannot.

May I conclude with just one final point, that you made in your last posting? You state that 'professional advisors often give advice to do something contrary to a given set of rules and that advice is usually based on the consequences of not doing it being worse than the consequences of doing it'

Given that statement, may I say that these are the very reasons why people are sick to death of this management team. What are they hiding that could be worse than complying with the law?? What is so bad?

I leave you and the other PPrunners to ponder that single point. How bad are the books, and are they so bad that it is less consequential to fail to comply with the law?

Shocking!

TSM

[Tim McLelland]

There we go - another page of comment, and still no closer to actually doing anything about it.

Gareth surely you can see the irony of your reply? A "group of people trying their hearts out" (sic) - exactly how? Where?

I see no point in repeating what I've already said but I've seen no evidence to suggest my view is wrong. It's a lost cause unless, by some miracle, TVOC succeeds without anybody else's influence.




Incidentally Cypherus his name is Pleming, not Phleming.

[bubblesuk]

The group of poeple trying thier hearts out are the club members on the 558 forum, The efforts of these poeple have led to the Early Day Motion in parliment, the article in The Mail and in a local paper in scotland.

This may not be much but its a lot more than T.V.O.C have accomplished.
And if you live in the east midlands you may have noticed that 558 is mentioned on a almost daily basis, I noticed last night that 109 or so had joined the club this week, and i have no doubts that they came because of the efforts of club members.

Now im no fan of T.V.O.C and i have my own views on them, but to knock real supporters who are trying their hardest to keep this project going by whatever means they can should be appluaded and has achieved a hell of a lot more than those that knock them.



(hard hat on and awaiting flack)

[The Swinging Monkey]

Bubbles,

May I just say that I don't think that anyone is laying blame with you at all, nor are they blaming the engineers. The blame lies fairly and squarely with that bunch of people they call 'the management'

IMHO they have shown themselves to be incapable of managing anything, and I hope they step down and resign very soon.

Tim,
You're right, another week and no further on. Isn't it strange how, after all the debate on this forum, on the clubs web forum, phone calls between Andrew and Pleming et al, that this wonderful management team STILL have not had the balls to come on here and answer a single question? What does that tell you?

TSM

[andrewmcharlton]

Morning TSM et al,

For the avoidance of doubt I wasn't saying in my original post that I am assured the project will succeed or anything of the sort. I was purely referring to the statutory obligations and day to day running as I know it.

Clearly financially its still on a knife edge and I love all the conspiracy theories about who is posting under what name etc, I am sure someone will have spotted one of the TVOC management on the grassy knoll soon or donors implicated in the phoney pharaoh's current outing in the inquest in London.

I am still dubious about its financial viability and have all the same concerns about communications and transparency, my original post was just about their statutory and day to day obligations, nothing more or less.

I thought more of you who expound grand ideas about what should be done would have dropped me a line with the questions you want asked.....email going off this evening.

Thanks

[Dis Gruntled]

Morning everyone,
Well yet again TVOC try too silence people who try too post on the forum anything that they do not like (sorry i was only on for one night tvoc forumeers).
Think we shall all see in the next week the outcome of the absolute farce that has been the management trying to run TVOC. I as much as anybody would love too see 558 back at the shows but I really cant see it happening with the current state of affairs and all the things happening behind the scenes. Guys I really enjoyed working with you all but surely their must come a time when you have the balls to say sorry we cant cope and stop leading people on. Dont really care if I get slated for this but have sat back for too long now and watched something I loved be ruined by a bunch of amateurs.
I await the abuse lol
Dave
Ps Good luck today Andrew but you do not deserve them back

[gareth herts]

Why is it ironic that so many people are doing whatever they can to help - whether it be raising funds, contacting local media, writing to their MP etc etc?

Maybe it will turn out to be a lost cause but if everyone takes that attitude now then we might as well all pack up and go home.

Despite all the rubbish going on with the management etc there is still a good deal of support for this project and I think that should be applauded and encouraged, not dismissed.

[Dis Gruntled]

Andrewmcharlton Sorry did not make it clear was referring to a Mr Edmundson
Dave:ooh:

[The Swinging Monkey]

gareth,

it isn't ironic, it's disgraceful!

As you say, there are so many people who have donated, so many people who are helping and so many people who want to help, but they all come up against this big brick wall called 'management'

Until we can get rid of this part of the project, those doing all the donating and work are simply throwing good money after bad, and wasting their time

What was it churchill said, 'never have so many, been so screwed around, by so few' or something like that? I think that applies pretty well here. The tens of thousands who have donated, all the engineers, all the back room staff, and they are all losing out to the top brass of this outfit, as are the whole nation.

And still nothing from Pleming, the man who never looks at PPrune (but contributes just occasionally) Come on Robert, do something or say something for Christ's sake man!

TSM

Andrew, if I thought for a second it would do any good, then I would gladly send you a list of my questions. But to be honest, I have asked them directly of Pleming on more than one occasion (and have yet to receive a reply) I'm know many others have asked the same/similar questions too, and frankly, if he still dosen't know what are concerns are by now, the man is just not interested!

[Tim McLelland]

I don't disagree with any of the stuff that has been said, but as I keep saying, it completely misses the point! It's just repetition and duplication on a grand scale, none of which does anything to solve that problem. We can slag-off TVOC forever but it achieves nothing. Surely, everything negative which can be said has been said by now, so surely it's not about TVOC's failings, it's about what happens now?

It's fine to say that lots of people are doing their best to generate interest, blah, blah, but it's achieving nothing. There is absolutely no point in different campaigns, petitions or anything else, when nobody takes any notice of them. Obviously, in the finanl analysis, serious people will only deal with the people who are actually handling the project - TVOC, and everything else, no matter how well-intentioned, will be regarded as irrelevant.

So, as I keep saying, the only thing any of us can do, is to put pressure on TVOC to provide a clear and detailed account of where all the money has been spent (on what, and why, and on who, and why), and precisely what is needed from here onwards. Evidently, TVOC have no intention of doing this, so the only way we could make this happen is to put pressure on HLF - they have a big interest in the project, and they can certainly force TVOC to explain their circumstances. In my opinion, it is the only way that TVOC will ever stop their secretive and confusing activities.

But HLF is unlikely to show any interest in getting involved unless someone with some political clout, some media influence or some legal expertise, effectively forces (or embarrasses) HLF into doing something. As I keep saying, there must be someone (or more than one person) out in Pprune-land, who could do this. I think this is what we should be looking for as I'm convinced it's the only way that the project can be saved. I don't accept for a second that fund-raising is going to solve anything, and given that sponsorship hasn't come-forward (and probably never will, if TVOC are perceived as being unprofessional), then the only solution will be to convince HLF that having spent so much on the project, they'd be very foolish not to spend a bit more to get the aircraft into the air.

All the whining and bitching is great for venting frustration but it achieves nothing, and never will. Likewise, petitions, letters to MP's, newspaper stories etc., are all well-intentioned but again, they will achieve nothing. There's only one way that the project can be saved as far as I can see, and that is by following the route I've mentioned. Sadly though, I just don't think it's going to happen because there are far too many people saying far too much, asking too many questions, and embarking on too many ill-conceived "rescue plans" all of which seem very worthy, but are ultimately pointless and counter-productive, because they will be ignored, and TVOC will simply carry-on regardless. They will keep carrying-on, paying no attention to anybody, until someone who actually has some influence and power, steps-in and stops them. Who? Well HLF of course, they're the only hope. And HLF will do nothing unless someone pressures them into doing something. Like I said before, much as it saddens me, I think the project's doomed unless there's a miracle very soon.

[Dis Gruntled]

So, as I keep saying, the only thing any of us can do, is to put pressure on TVOC to provide a clear and detailed account of where all the money has been spent (on what, and why, and on who, and why), and precisely what is needed from here onwards.

Obviously all the talk at the moment is about money and management but you need too look at the bigger picture.
1. How is the £150k going too help if tvoc do not have the auths to do the work on a u/s aircraft ( only allowed to do anti-dets)
2. How can they complete the test flights if the engineers from MA who have the auths are away most of March and April on courses and detatchments, surely thats 2 more months of money needed which at the current rate is anywhere between 50 and 75 thousand a month depending on the pleas that you read.
:ugh:

[kwh]

...to go tits up, I think. That will force the HLF's hand viz-a-viz an investigation, and fix the immediate management problem at the same time, at a stroke. The aircraft will not evaporate in a puff of smoke if TVOC goes bust, and nor will the engineers or the people with the knowledge.

Giving TVOC money to continue to pee up the hangar wall in secret and nothing changes except donors get poorer and confidence in the project ebbs further.

I reckon the optimal way forward (as somebody not privvy to what is or has really been going on and fed up that his donations may well have been wasted) is to cut them off, donate not a bean, wait until the gravy train shudders to a halt and they are forced to account for themselves to the HLF and then hope that the Vulcan rises pheonix like from the ashes.

[vickyv]

i too can vouch for daddy flm.

Maybe people are coming out of the woodwork to try to make the public at large aware of the fact that all is not as it seems with the project and having heard that the aircrew also have doubts about the abilities of the management i am not surprised.
The £150k being banded about is only what they need for starters. if that money is raised by the public the debacle will continue for only a short time and come april/may the pleas for money will start all over again.

Daddy - next lifetime.

[Cypherus]

Thanks for the input Dave, and for the time you spent on the project, sorry too hear that like so many others you to have had trouble with the current club forum police but it was only to be expected once the original forum was killed off.

Question I ask though is this, if the TVOC has expended so much time, money and effort on getting the engineering staff qualified to work on 558, why do we now find the project stalled awaiting the return of MA staff, surely the whole idea of having in house certified staff was too make the TVOC a self contained operational facility reliant only on outside suppliers, not as we now see the MA company to complete any meaningful work on the airframe other than Anti-Dets. And if this is the case will they be beholding to them for the foreseeable future and at what cost.

Also, your point about the delay in obtaining this assistance until the end of April possibly has been one that has come up before but more along the lines of the management would certainly have know about this well in advance seems more than a little odd that it appears on the face of it that they did not take advantage of the
Progress that had been made over so many months it all seems to have been wasted to a large degree.

Public awareness at that time was high, yet for some reason was not capitalised upon instead we had numerous rather lame excuses as to why the test flights were not completed and had to watch puzzled while the staff all retired to a safe distance and the MA crew packed up their kit and left, seems now that they possibly knew what was going on inside the TVOC financially but the management as usual choose to keep silent on the matter leaving as we now see a large amount of cash being solicited to pick up the project yet again.

Andrew makes a good point on the FOI act and its possible use to lever the HLF into action and I agree that bitching about what has happened will not oblige the TVOC board to move one inch from their present course, but if as they say they are forced to close the project if they cannot guarantee the required finances are in place then possibly this might be the best course of action as in doing so they themselves would be obliged to step down leaving the way open for a replacement team to be appointed who might be more able too see the project too completion.

[Evanelpus]

...to go tits up, I think. That will force the HLF's hand

It most certainly will and end any further potential financial support. I am a fatalist (some say doomsdayer), I think this project is as dead as a dodo. Individuals are going to find it extremely difficult to contribute to a fund that is clearly not showing their full hand. Let's face it, most of the 'little man' supporters are enthusiasts who read all manner of aviation Forums and will form an opinion based on what they read. I would have to be drugged to the eyeballs just to open my wallet in front of these people, let alone pull any money out.

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, I would love to eat humble pie but I just can't see how the necessary money can be raised. What is needed is a Richard Branson type guy who hands over a wedge just for the love of aviation. No strings attached, no corporate logos everywhere, just for the hell of keeping the Vulcan flying.....................did I also say I was a daydreamer.

[Dis Gruntled]

Question I ask though is this, if the TVOC has expended so much time, money and effort on getting the engineering staff qualified to work on 558, why do we now find the project stalled awaiting the return of MA staff, surely the whole idea of having in house certified staff was too make the TVOC a self contained operational facility reliant only on outside suppliers, not as we now see the MA company to complete any meaningful work on the airframe other than Anti-Dets. And if this is the case will they be beholding to them for the foreseeable future and at what cost.

Also, your point about the delay in obtaining this assistance until the end of April possibly has been one that has come up before but more along the lines of the management would certainly have know about this well in advance seems more than a little odd that it appears on the face of it that they did not take advantage of the
Progress that had been made over so many months it all seems to have been wasted to a large degree.

Public awareness at that time was high, yet for some reason was not capitalised upon instead we had numerous rather lame excuses as to why the test flights were not completed and had to watch puzzled while the staff all retired to a safe distance and the MA crew packed up their kit and left, seems now that they possibly knew what was going on inside the TVOC financially but the management as usual choose to keep silent on the matter leaving as we now see a large amount of cash being solicited to pick up the project yet again.

Andrew makes a good point on the FOI act and its possible use to lever the HLF into action and I agree that bitching about what has happened will not oblige the TVOC board to move one inch from their present course, but if as they say they are forced to close the project if they cannot guarantee the required finances are in place then possibly this might be the best course of action as in doing so they themselves would be obliged to step down leaving the way open for a replacement team to be appointed who might be more able too see the project too completion.


Cypherus
MA still hold the engineering authority on the aircraft BAe the design auths. For reasons which I shall try not to go into (due to not wanting to be sued) TVOC are not deemed competent enough to be let loose in the big wide world with a real aircraft (its not a big boys toy)
I am not privvy too the money neede by MA from TVOC but I do know as has been mentioned by others that marshalls wiped a debt of over 2million owed too them so im sure you must agree before they go back they would rightly want the money up front. I am not sure how long TVOC have known about the lads unavailability.
As for going down the hlf route it would look like the better option and just hope that if somebody does pick up the gauntlet its done right next time.
Dave

[Dis Gruntled]

Victor on ukar of course I dont mind you posting my quotes.
Dano e-mail me
Dave M

[bubblesuk]

To try and summarise as much as possible in one post, I hope that this will answer many of the questions that some of you have about who I am, what I feel about TVOC and 558 specifically.

Firstly, I am a Vulcan to the Sky Club member and a regular contributor on the Club Forum. I have my own personal association with 558 herself which goes back some years and I am completely disconnected with TVOC in every way, shape and form. This itself is one of the reasons that I have always been one of 558’s biggest fans.

The email campaign
This idea was NOT that of TVOC or the Trust. In fact, all that TVOC had mentioned to ANYONE 11 days ago was the “Mayday Mayday” message on the homepage of www.tvoc.co.uk (http://www.tvoc.co.uk/). At no time did TVOC ask anyone on the forum for ANYTHING but money – as usual.

One Club/forum member, using their own initiative, approached TVOC with the idea that an existing database that they held might be useful as a means of attracting media attention for the project’s current situation. This idea was APPROVED by TVOC and the Club/forum member, whose idea it was wrote the email and forwarded it to TVOC who then sent it out to the 6,000+ names on their database, without changing one single word of the Club member’s original.

Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect; if you compare the actual wording of the original email to that of the Parliamentary EDM 1014, you can see that the latter could ONLY have come about as a result.

Similarly, the email was copied VERBATIM and used as the letter to the Daily Mail; this is further proof of the campaigns effectiveness. The fact that TVOC has today updated their webpage with the announcement that, “ David Taylor, MP for North West Leicestershire, presented the EDM to Harriet Harman ( Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons,) in parliament yesterday.” Goes a long way to demonstrate how effective this initial email campaign has been. Is can be argued that without the initiative of the Club (not TVOC), none of this would have occurred at all and 558’s future would stand little chance.
What I think is vital to point out is that none of this was either at the instigation of TVOC, nor at the request of TVOC. It was 100% the hard work of very many Club and forum members. What the vast majority of these people feel however is that, whilst it was urgent that something be done to raise NATIONAL awareness, they (including me) feel that the campaign to raise funds also, by default, raises money to pay the salaries of certain members of TVOC staff whose job we have effectively done for them!

As 558’s most loyal supporters, we are keen to ensure that TVOC do not rest back on their laurels and believe that the success of their fundraising campaign was of their own doing; the very second that they think that, it will only be a matter of time before they come running to us again asking for yet more money. As a loyal group of supporters of the aeroplane herself, very very few hold the same ‘love’ for TVOC themselves, particularly the way that are CURRENTLY running the project.

I know that it appears i have defended T.V.O.C but my words weresimply so that we may all witness 558’s return to display this year and for the next 10 to 15 years. As it stands, very few believe that the current TVOC management have the necessary skills to deliver that. We all continue to work very hard to raise awareness of 558 to the Nation that owns her, but we will NOT allow TVOC to take credit for actions that they have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of even thinking of let alone putting into practice.

I shall continue to post on here as well as other places, simply to enable the wider world to know more about what is going on with 558 than TVOC bother to tell anyone. It is not MY job to give out information or to defend TVOC – it is theirs and yet they appear to have done nothing about it. It IS my job however to do everything in my power to protect and preserve 558 herself, simply because I am just one of 60 million people in the UK that owns her!

[Tim McLelland]

I see no other way forward with this saga, other than directing serious attention towards HLF. Everything else is utterly pointless no matter how well-intentioned. Only HLF has any leverage with TVOC - they will inevitably ignore everybody else.

So, given that HLF will (judging from my past communications with them) be almost as difficult to motivate. They will do nothing unless all this bad feeling, energy and frustration is directed at them, and only them. They will claim that they can do nothing but of course that's nonsense. They're sitting on huge quantities of Lottery money and having already spent (mis-spent, if the project fails) a huge amount, then it would be ludicrous to allow the money to be written-off, when they only need to provide what is (proportionally speaking) another small amount to ensure that the aircraft flies for at least one air show season. If the aircraft still cannot find sponsorship after that, at least HLF could rightly claim to have done everything they could, and at least the project would have resulted in a few months of public appearances in exchange for all the money and hard work that has gone into it. If they refuse to get involved, we can rightly make a very public issue of how the HLF has again wasted a huge amount of money. It's a sound argument which (with enough pressure from the right people) ought to convince them that they will look pretty stupid if they don't step in.

Just as importantly, if they don't step in, the project is patently dead.

So, once again, I would ask everyone to ease-off on the recriminations, the opinions, the moans and gripes. Likewise, I'd ask everyone to forget about all these "publicity campaign" ideas, petitions, letters to MP's and all the rest. It just gives the impression that there are some well-meaning eccentrics out there who think that flying the Vulcan would be a nice idea. Nobody (especially TVOC) is going to take any of this stuff seriously.

If (like me) you're sick of reading the endless misery, then I would urge everyone to do something constructive and forget all this pointless nonsense. Use your energy and enthusiasm to find someone (or some people) who have the ability to present a proper case to HLF, to convince them that they can't afford to allow this project to end in failure when they have put so much money into it. They and they alone have the ability to save it easily at a stroke.

So come on - all these Ppruners... where are the RAF chiefs, the industry chiefs, the media commentators, the high-profile MP's, the celebrities... There must be some lurking around on here, or if not, I'm pretty sure more than a few of you must know a few people that ought to be approached?

Let's not sit-back and grumble the project into oblivion. There's a simple solution which would easily save the project, if only this rabble of muttering and disorganised campaigning was properly co-ordinated and (most importantly) aimed at the right target.

[saracenman]

bubblesuk seems to have some problems with access at the moment and has asked me to post HIS words on HIS nehalf




To try and summarise as much as possible in one post, I hope that this will answer many of the questions that some of you have about who I am, what I feel about TVOC and 558 specifically.

Firstly, I am a Vulcan to the Sky Club member and a regular contributor on the Club Forum. I have my own personal association with 558 herself which goes back some years and I am completely disconnected with TVOC in every way, shape and form. This itself is one of the reasons that I have always been one of 558’s biggest fans.

The email campaign
This idea was NOT that of TVOC or the Trust. In fact, all that TVOC had mentioned to ANYONE 11 days ago was the “Mayday Mayday” message on the homepage of www.tvoc.co.uk (http://www.tvoc.co.uk/). At no time did TVOC ask anyone on the forum for ANYTHING but money – as usual.

One Club/forum member, using their own initiative, approached TVOC with the idea that an existing database that they held might be useful as a means of attracting media attention for the project’s current situation. This idea was APPROVED by TVOC and the Club/forum member, whose idea it was wrote the email and forwarded it to TVOC who then sent it out to the 6,000+ names on their database, without changing one single word of the Club member’s original.

Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect; if you compare the actual wording of the original email to that of the Parliamentary EDM 1014, you can see that the latter could ONLY have come about as a result.

Similarly, the email was copied VERBATIM and used as the letter to the Daily Mail; this is further proof of the campaigns effectiveness. The fact that TVOC has today updated their webpage with the announcement that, “ David Taylor, MP for North West Leicestershire, presented the EDM to Harriet Harman ( Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons,) in parliament yesterday.” Goes a long way to demonstrate how effective this initial email campaign has been. Is can be argued that without the initiative of the Club (not TVOC), none of this would have occurred at all and 558’s future would stand little chance.
What I think is vital to point out is that none of this was either at the instigation of TVOC, nor at the request of TVOC. It was 100% the hard work of very many Club and forum members. What the vast majority of these people feel however is that, whilst it was urgent that something be done to raise NATIONAL awareness, they (including me) feel that the campaign to raise funds also, by default, raises money to pay the salaries of certain members of TVOC staff whose job we have effectively done for them!
As 558’s most loyal supporters, we are keen to ensure that TVOC do not rest back on their laurels and believe that the success of their fundraising campaign was of their own doing; the very second that they think that, it will only be a matter of time before they come running to us again asking for yet more money. As a loyal group of supporters of the aeroplane herself, very very few hold the same ‘love’ for TVOC themselves, particularly the way that are CURRENTLY running the project.
I know that it appears i have defended T.V.O.C but my words weresimply so that we may all witness 558’s return to display this year and for the next 10 to 15 years. As it stands, very few believe that the current TVOC management have the necessary skills to deliver that. We all continue to work very hard to raise awareness of 558 to the Nation that owns her, but we will NOT allow TVOC to take credit for actions that they have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of even thinking of let alone putting into practice.
I shall continue to post on here as well as other places, simply to enable the wider world to know more about what is going on with 558 than TVOC bother to tell anyone. It is not MY job to give out information or to defend TVOC – it is theirs and yet they appear to have done nothing about it. It IS my job however to do everything in my power to protect and preserve 558 herself, simply because I am just one of 60 million people in the UK that owns her!

[Cypherus]

Vickyv.

Not quiet certain your correct with that statement but I have to admit that I am suprised that out of the months of training shelled out for by the TVOC it still has no engineers qualified to work on the Airframe unsupervised by MA. I guess someone upstairs slightly overlooked too mention that along the way...... maybe!.

[Dis Gruntled]

Unfortunately Tim it looks now as if the only way forward is for the project too fail and some other organisation to take the reigns and run it properly.
It certainly seems too have gone to far downhill not just on the money side but on all sides. I am not being a doom and gloom merchant just being realistic, I realise not everybody knows all the facts and that has lead to some wild and some very close to the mark rumours on all the forums which a lot of people have taken offence too but these are the people who now need to sit back understand that it is NOT just about the funding. There are many other issues that need too be addressed.
Dave

[gareth herts]

Hi Tim

I do think you are misjudging the impact of the "well-meaning eccentrics" - which I must say comes across as a fairly patronising turn of phrase.

There is evidence here and elsewhere that stories in newapapers are raising awareness, money is coming in etc etc. I mean blimey, if you look at the TVOC homepage even they've been doing something! I'm not suggesting for one minute that this might save the project alone, but a total waste of time, I think not and hope not.

The issue many will have with letting it run its course is the worry that it might fall so flat on its face that it'll never get up again. If it does and someone else picks up the project then that is all well and good but
I don't think anyone can expect the significant number of people who support this project and our aviation heritage in general to stop doing what they can or stop seeking answers - as eccentric as that might sound.

Gareth

[bubblesuk]

Can i refer you to saracanmans post above which he posted on my behalf.
It outlines what we the club members NOT tvoc have been attempting.

[gareth herts]

Can i refer you to saracanmans post above which he posted on my behalf.
It outlines what we the club members NOT tvoc have been attempting.

Bubbles

Are you and all the other club members "well-meaning eccentrics"? :}

Fair play to you. :D

Gareth

[saracenman]

gareth

refering to bubblesuk's words above i feel it's important to remind people that TVOC are currently riding a wave of publicity soley initiated by the Vulcan to the Sky Club members and NOT the actions of themselves.

we as forum/club members have been banging on for months to see TVOC keep the homepgae up to date - now they have, but sadly on the backs of much determined (free) the efforts of many club members!

sm

[bubblesuk]

Gareth.


Mad as cheese mate. :}


p.s. How do you quote?

[Tim McLelland]

Whilst this action has been labelled as ‘amateurish’ and ‘ridiculous’ on other forums, it can be proved, beyond doubt, that it had the desired effect


Okay, what desired effect is that? I don't see any. Okay, a few column inches for the Hate Mail but that's not got the Vulcan any nearer flying has it?

[kokpit]

Saracenman,

Thanks for taking the time to explain, much appreciated :D

I just hope (as do most I think) that sensibility somehow prevails, and that the money that is so desperately needed actually gets to the aircraft, rather than being soaked up by a myriad of sponges that will do little or nothing to see this aircraft ever fly again. :ugh:

[gareth herts]

Saracen - I hope you didn't think I was giving them any credit? Most of us should be aware by now that much of the positive action & news has been generated by people other than those managing the project.

Bubbles - Cut the text you want to quote, paste in to your new post, make sure it's highlighted and click the furthest right hand button on the tool bar above - it wraps it all up as a quote.

There might be an easier way but that's how I do it!!

[bubblesuk]

Tim

The project through various "amateurish" and "ridiculous" emails has been brought to the attention of various MPs and a number of ministers. This campaign has also brought tv and radio exposure thus high lighting the project. We on in the club and forum do as much as we can and it has to be said has produced greater results than, banging out the same old rants on various forums. Believe it or not i actually to a certain degree think you are on the right lines, however to patronise our attempts is rather offensive. Why if you havent already -recruited a lawer etc to further you ideas?

[saracenman]

the exact wording of EDM 1014 is as follows (i have highlighted the appropriate sections in red):

EDM 1014

THE AVRO VULCAN PROJECT
22.02.2008


Taylor, David
That this House congratulates all those who have expended huge efforts over a decade to return an Avro Vulcan aeroplane to public display; believes that this is an icon of British heritage and an invaluable asset in assisting today's students to better understand British science, engineering and history; recalls that it remains the only project of its kind to have received support from the Heritage Lottery Fund and salutes the record-breaking first flight in its present restored form in October 2007; is concerned to learn that, because the final tranche of funding and sponsorship has yet to be secured, this fully flight-ready aircraft presently languishes in a Leicestershire hangar, unable to appear at UK airshows in 2008; and believes that urgent advice and assistance should be provided to the project team by the Department for Transport, the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills to surmount the final funding hurdle of £150,000 before the end of March 2008 and thus to carry on the vital educational programme built around this incredible machine.



now the original email (written by a Club member):
Dear Sky Radio News/Sky News/ITV This Morning/Channel 4 Richard & Judy/BBC Breakfast, (delete as appropriate)

I am contacting you in the hope that your programme might be able to give even the briefest of mention to a worthy cause that is at a crucial point of near financial collapse. For over 9 years, huge efforts have been made to return an icon of British heritage to public display - an Avro Vulcan aeroplane. The whole thrust of the restoration to flight project was based around the invaluable asset it represents to the education of our children, in British science, engineering and history. On the basis of this, it remains the only project of its kind to receive funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund.

After a record breaking first flight in its present restored form, in October 2007, vital funding and sponsorship has eluded the project team. The aircraft currently sits in a Leicestershire hangar, fully flight-ready, unable to appear at UK airshows this year due to an URGENT cash shortage. If, by the end of March this year, £150,000 cannot be found to jump this final hurdle, the whole 9 year project will close along with the extensive education programme built around this incredible machine.

As a national heritage asset, belonging to every man woman and child within our shores, the aircraft's immediate prospects are dire without the rightful media coverage so desperately sought. I would be extremely grateful if you could find even a one minute slot in your busy programme schedule to help champion this unique and worthy cause.

The project website is www.vulcantothesky.com where the entire story of this great British icon is told. The all important means of becoming part of the story and giving urgently needed help is there also.

Thank you for your consideration.

Yours

(Your Name)




whilst that EDM 'edited' the original, this didn't - identical to the original email, save a handful of words:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff37/saracenman/VulcanScan.jpg


DO NOT FORGET that these words were NOT TVOC's but one Club/forum member who took it upon their own initiative to sugest this email, and to write it.

similarly, the EDM was clearly 'engineered' by a Club/forum member (not the same one)

NONE of this was sugested, requsted or expected by TVOC.

what more proof would you like? the words speak for themselves!

sm

[HalloweenJack]

I do not represent my senior management , but i have a postion of responsibility within another UK based charity.

i know of a very senior manager which approached TVOC , with not only idea`s of fundraising opportunities which have worked well within the field we are in , but also assistance if needed;

what is sad is that this approach was made on numerous occasions , and yet little if no reply was recieved, it is as if the management of TVOC are not really that interested.

[Exrigger]

It must be fairly obvious by now that the club members have done a lot of work, that should not be down to them. They have, in most cases contiued to donate, have succeded in getting friends and family to join the club and donate, have succeded in getting the project back in the limelight, this thread must also prove something as does the UKAR one.

Now if all this does not prove that the supporters of this project will, despite the total lack of help, info or direction from TVOC, do whatever it takes to show that we and 558 should be worthy of financial support. So again here is the challenge; If there is someone out there who has the money, the experience, the business acumen and the bottle to take this project on and manage it to a succesfull conclusion, then please consider doing it sooner rather than later.

Now if this still shows us up as "amateurish" and "ridiculous" then so be it, it will not stop us going untill even we have to admit it is a lost cause, and make no mistake we are not there yet, despite the best efforts by TVOC.

[Pontius Navigator]

I offered to give a talk, with predicable response :(

[flightlineuk]

BBC R5L (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/fivelive/aod.shtml?fivelive/5l_breakfast_fri#)

Fast forward to 2.51mins...

[Tim McLelland]

Maybe you're not getting my point, despite how many times I say it! What is the point of getting the attention of MP's or highlighting the project in a paper or the radio? What is this supposed to achieve?

Doesn't matter how many MP's you contact or how many newspapers pick-up the story, it's clear that nothing is going to happen as a result. So, as I keep saying, all of this good-intentioned action needs to be directed so that it actually achieves something, and as I've said repeatedly, there is only one practical solution - to pressure HLF into providing more funding, and to pressure them into investigating and sorting-out whatever TVOC have done with all the HLF's money.

You can forget petitions, EDM's, radio interviews, newspaper features. They're lovely but they don't do anything apart from maybe raising a few more pounds of donations. There's only one way this saga can be resolved, so why can't all this effort be directed towards a specific aim?

[Exrigger]

Tim is it possible that by the members, rather than TVOC ,showing how much this project means to them, by communicating this depth of feeling to the country through the media and government that someone may take up the mantle and respond to the challenge I posted in post #801:

[/So again here is the challenge; If there is someone out there who has the money, the experience, the business acumen and the bottle to take this project on and manage it to a succesfull conclusion, then please consider doing it sooner rather than later.

This has, surely, got to be better than;
a. doing nothing
b. Waiting for TVOC to do something.

Its only a mere thought though.

[daddy flm]

ffm give us a bell m8

[bubblesuk]

Tim

Why dont you impliment this plan of yours? have you actually took any acton at all over than call us amateurish etc? Our efforts may be for nothing fall on death ears but at least we are trying. So far on the forums all ive seen is lots of talk and little action and when people do try to do whatever they can. And when they achieve something no matter how small the likes of you dismiss it.

If(when) this project dies at least we will know we did all we could to keep it going, will you?

[Tim McLelland]

I take your point Flipflop and you're obviously in a better position to judge just how hopeless the TVOC situation may or may not be. Likewise, I would agree that a completely fresh start would be the ideal solution. My problem with this viewpoint though, is that a fresh start just isn't going to happen. How would it? Who would handle it? With what money? Worse still, even if it represented a fresh start, I would imagine that any prospective sponsor would be discouraged from supporting a project that has yet again ended in recriminations. It would hardly look like a good project to pour money into.

My point about the HLF is that they have huge amounts of money to spend and they could easily finance the aircraft at least for this year, on the grounds that they've already enabled the aircraft to get this far, therefore it would be complete folly to abandon the aircraft at this late stage. I agree it could look like a case of proverbially prolonging the agony, but there is no "agony" if HLF's input enabled the aircraft to fly. Surely, that's all we want? If TVOC is in a state of near-collapse then fine, I don't see how that is a factor if HLF stepped-in and either got TVOC into shape, or replaced them with people who can handle the job. They and they alone have the financial, legal and moral right to do it, so why not?

I just don't see how there's any alternative. Sending more contributions is certainly a case of throwing good money after bad and if TVOC is in danger of imminent collapse then okay, what will be will be. Maybe that is the opportunity for HLF to step in and rescure the project into which they've poured so much money? If HLF isn't the answer then what is the answer? If TVOC winds itself up and does no more, then surely that's the end of the whole project? I can't see anyone else stepping in either with management skills or (just as importantly) the money to do anything and once the aircraft starts to languish in the hangar it will obviously be more and more expensive to get it out again. So, I ask the question, if HLF isn't the answer then what is?

bubblesuk, I don't really know what you're proposing. How am I supposed to implement any plan? I have no influence with anyone otherwise I would obviously have used it by now! I've said it enough times - it needs someone with "clout" that either HLF or TVOC will take notice of. All I've been asking for is a little less of the talking and more discussion of what can actually be done. I get the impression that you resent my comments and that's fine, you're obviously entitled to your view, but the way I see things, you seem to think it unfair that I supposedly "dismiss" achievements "no matter how small"; my point was/is that these "achievements" aren't achievements at all - they achieve absolutely nothing. I've said all along that petitions, letters to MP's, radio and newspaper stuff, questions in Parliament and so on, are all well and good, and they reflect people's passion for the project to succeed, but they're fatally ill-conceived. They're not going to get a result, therefore it seems more practical to look at the ways in which we might all be able to make something happen. You can be sure that if we continue simply expressing our disappointment and frustration while people go off in all directions on their own self-declared campaigns, there will be nothing but fuss, and no results. I don't need to justify myself to you, I'm just saying what I think.

It's fine to say that if the project fails, you can sit back and say you did all you can to save it, but that would be a rather subjective conclusion. It depends what you perceive to be "doing all you can" doesn't it? Wasting time by shooting-off in all directions making pointless demands to people who cannot or will not influence the project is just activity for activity's sake, isn't it? Surely it's far wiser to first identify what precisely should be done - then we might stand some chance of finding a way to do it?!

[bubblesuk]

Tim


Some of the members of parliment have promised to make representaions to the Department of Trade and Industry. Also more than one MP has promised to raise the matter with the ministry of defence. Is that enough clout for you?

In your posts you constantly talk of getting people in to sort things out, now im no expert but id assume that these dept's are not going to walk up and say " hello here have a big fat wad of cash" with out finding out if the money is going to be used properly.

Now may i respectfully suggest instead of dismissing out of hand what is being done without actually taking the time to find out who we have spoken to or what has been spoken about, you contact a club member or visit the 558 forum. failing that instead of all this talk of action why dont do enlist the help of a lawer or contact the HLF yourself and actually do something?

Im sorry if this is a little snippy but im tired of sarcasm, abuse and a wholesale patronizing attitude to those of us dedicated to see this aircraft fly by those seemingly hell bent on failure.

[saracenman]

in my opinion (that of an ardent 558 supporter with limited, but not uninformed, knowledge of the 'behind the scenes stuff') is very simple.

money aside, CAA aside, MA aside, publicity aside - there is one single obstacle in the way, preventing 558's ASSURED future as a display aircraft - TVOC!

as FFM so elloquently (as ever) pointed out, there are very many issues at the core of TVOC that need urgent rectification. Dr Pleming (arguably) has proved to the world that he is the leader of a team that broke all the rule books, proved many learned people wrong and actually flown the world's very first ex-military complex aircarft type.

as i have said at length elsewhere, getting to that point was the focus of a 15 year dream. now, however, 558 finds herself in a whole new environment - she is now actually an aeroplane (thanks to the incredible dedication of those like FFM). there is currently NO-ONE employed by TVOC that has any experience in operating an aeroplane, let alone a Vulcan, LET ALONE displaying a Vulcan!

consider this - you purchase a run down house and decide to renovate it. such a project requires all the appropriate gas checks etc. okay, so it is finished - does the fact that you were capable of turning a 'wreck' into a habitable abode AUTOMATICALLY qualify you in the world of selling it? no - that's the job of an estate agent! would that estate agent profess to have the skill to rebuild said property? no - each must appreciate and respect their own, and others, limitations.

as FFM says, not without an unreasonable amount of authority, TVOC's work is done. bring in the team that know what to do next as TVOC have clearly demonstrated that they really do NOT know what to do next. simply saying to the world that they have achieved what many thought impossible does NOT equate to them knowing what to do next.

sm

[Tim McLelland]

Some of the members of parliment have promised to make representaions to the Department of Trade and Industry. Also more than one MP has promised to raise the matter with the ministry of defence. Is that enough clout for you?

er... no!

I don't think you've understood or properly read what I've been saying. Surely, you don't imagine that MP's making representations achieves anything? Likewise, what on earth does raising the matter with the MoD achieve? In the first instance, the MP's will eventually come-back and say that they've raised the matter, but that the DTI say it's an issue for private initiative. The MoD will naturally (and rightly) say it's got absolutely nothing to do with them. Great - that solves er... nothing.

As you say yourself, no department is going to say "here, have a wad of money" - your own words, so why bother raising the issue in the first place? It's just pointless hot air, no matter how well intentioned it may be. I've highlighted what I think is the best (probably only) route through which the project's likely to be saved but if (as seems likely) most people opt to take your route, there's just going to be an endless series of campaigns, letters, emails, and heaven-knows what else, all achieving nothing. I trust you can see what I'm getting-at without getting upset?!

Incidentally, as for the repeated suggestions that I get involved and do something, I've been doing that for years, ever since I completed my first Vulcan book and started work on the second. I've spent more than enough time dealing with TVOC's mood swings and half truths, I've given them offers of help and publicity and they've ignored them. I've had my photographs sold and published without my permission, and I've wasted plenty of time going round in circles, arguing with the HLF. So please don't think I haven't done anything, I'm just able to see that supreme folly of all the activity that is going-on at present which is leading nowhere. I'm also in direct contact with some people who would be delighted to get behind any kind of orchestrated campaign, if there was one (not a dozen different ones) and one that actually had a direct purpose, not just a general, non-specific wish for the aircraft to fly.

Anyway, I'm falling into a trap here and doing what I've been urging others to avoid - arguing about everything but the key issue!:)

[Dis Gruntled]

I've given them offers of help and publicity and they've ignored them. I've had my photographs sold and published without my permission, and I've wasted plenty of time going round in circles

Yourself and many many others Tim.

My point about the HLF is that they have huge amounts of money to spend and they could easily finance the aircraft at least for this year, on the grounds that they've already enabled the aircraft to get this far, therefore it would be complete folly to abandon the aircraft at this late stage. I agree it could look like a case of proverbially prolonging the agony, but there is no "agony" if HLF's input enabled the aircraft to fly.

Only one draw back with this I can see, by the time they get new people through the vulcan course and authorised, then the aircraft made serviceable and ALL the independent checks done again, then permit to fly, then permit to display, and not to forget trying to convince oem's and outside support services that it is now being run professionally and they will be paid, I'm afraid you could probably forget this season.
Also you say if the HLF's input enabled the aircraft too fly, that sir is one huge IF.

TVOC currently has many more issues clouding it than funding, and that is why personally I would implore people to keep their hands firmly in their pockets.

Ron I could not agree with you more its a travesty that it has gone down this route but as we both know its the only way forward.


Dave

[green granite]

The way forward is simple, the government should nationalize it and give it to the BBMF to run. :hmm:

[GeeRam]

Dr Pleming (arguably) has proved to the world that he is the leader of a team that broke all the rule books, proved many learned people wrong and actually flown the world's very first ex-military complex aircarft type.

Err.......that should be first UK ex-mil complex type, not world's........:=

[oldlag53]

If you guys want an idea of just how loopy and amateurish TVOC are, just take a look at the commercial sponsorship page on their website. Firstly, the Wall Of Fame page doesn't work in Firefox - text is black on grey. Completely unreadable.

OK, so we fire up Internet Explorer. Works OK now - but, hold on, for the privilege of a company logo in the hangar, plus vague promises of signage at 'key air shows', plus more vague 'features' in the newsletter, they want - wait for it - £50,000 per year!!

As a former marketing manager of 20 years, I can safely say that this is absolutely bonkers, apart from the simple fact that there are few (if any) companies out there who would want to sponsor an ancient RAF warplane in the first place...

[popkid]

Gutted to see the project failing.

I've tried for a year or so now to approach TVOC and "Rusty" to donate my time free of charge as a graphic designer. I've offered to produce websites, display boards, interactive learning material, promotional flyers, leaflets, posters, without fee.

I reckon this could have saved the project quite a few grand. Shame, I've never heard anything back further than a vague 'maybe', they seem a little disinterested in the promotional and ongoing educational side, which I would have said is their lifeline right now.

[vickyv]

Cypherus, i know what i have seen and heard.
This may be hard to believe but i am not lying about anything i have written in this or any other forum. I think it is morally wrong for an organisation to keep asking for money from people who quite often cannot afford to give it. People deserve to know the truth and when they are told everything is fine they are being lied to. I stand by everything i have said. There is alot more i know that is even worse but i cannot divulge it due to the risk of litigation.

[vickyv]

I do not represent my senior management , but i have a postion of responsibility within another UK based charity.

i know of a very senior manager which approached TVOC , with not only idea`s of fundraising opportunities which have worked well within the field we are in , but also assistance if needed;

what is sad is that this approach was made on numerous occasions , and yet little if no reply was recieved, it is as if the management of TVOC are not really that interested.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3947497)

This is exactly one of the problems with the project. Time and time again assistance and advice has been offered but due to the fact that certain people say 558 is THEIR aircraft and it is THEIR project offers tend to be ignored.
A non-primadonnerish attitude is what is needed here.

[Tim McLelland]

... and still the gripes and accusations continue.

Is there any point to all this? I think we've established that everyone believes TVOC are not doing a good job or worse. But could we take that as understood now and move on?

Whatever they're doing, there's nothing we can do about it, so why keep harping-on about their alleged "crimes" and failings?

Only the HLF has sufficient legal and moral grounds to step-in and stop them, and if necessary replace them with other people. Likewise, only HLF has immediate access to huge sums of money. They're the only people that can sort-out this mess so instead of petitions, pointless emails, letters to MP's or anything else, why can't we make an orchestrated effort to campaigh for HLF to stop sitting on their hands and rescue the project, before all their (our) money is completely wasted?

... or do we just want to whine about TVOC until the Vulcan rusts away?

[Dis Gruntled]

Only the HLF has sufficient legal and moral grounds to step-in and stop them

Tim if you would be so kind as too explain why and how?

[bubblesuk]

I personaly would be interested to hear what the engineers would do to sort things out. Im not out to put any body on the spot i just think that given their greater knowlege of the situation they may be able to steer us in the right direction (in simple terms HELP!!!!) :)

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,

I think it's about time you stopped telling us all to stop moaning and venting our anger here on this forum. You have made your point and I respect that, but please stop telling people to 'shut up and do something else'

Whatever anyone does, it will eventually find it's way back to Pleming and Co and they should be encouraged to complain in any manner they feel comfortable with. I have it on fairly good authority that the likes of Dave T, Barry M and the other aircrew all read this forum, and I am confident that between them, they will explain things to Pleming!

Now, if you yourself feel so strongly about the CC, then you should write to them and direct them to PPrune, where they will be able to see at first hand the huge amount of concern, anger and accusations directed at the so-called management of TVOC.

I am sure that if, as you say, they 'have sufficient legal and moral grounds to step-in and stop them' then you should get on to them immediately, and ask them to step in. We don't all need to do that, so you do it on our behalf, and point them in this direction and that of TVOC website/forum and others. I am sure they will then be able to form their own opinion, and guage public opinion on the matter.

In the meantime, please allow those of us who wish to complain, winge, moan, gripe, whatever, do it in a manner and fashion that we are all comfortable with. At the end of the day, we are all doing 'our bit' and we do not deserve criticism from you for that. At least we are doing something, which is more than they are doing at Brunters.

TSM

[Dis Gruntled]

I personaly would be interested to hear what the engineers would do to sort things out.

Gregg
Which engineers TVOC or ones on here. Think both myself and Ron have made it clear where we stand.

I have it on fairly good authority that the likes of Dave T, Barry M and the other aircrew all read this forum, and I am confident that between them, they will explain things to Pleming!


TSM unfortunately they are mushrooms as far as TVOC are concerned as well.

... and still the gripes and accusations continue.

Is there any point to all this?

Are we covering all the points in your new book then Tim or do you have shares in camelot lol (only trying to lighten the mood not slanderous or libelous) :)

[Vulcan 903]

Latest "project saver" is the online No 10 Petition :bored:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/VulcanToTheSky/

Not really sure what the UK Gov can or would want to do?

[Flying Signman]

Hi Vulcan 903,

Not that it will be a "project saver" in any form, but it sure is a step in the right direction in raising the profile of the campaign.

Added to all the other things that seem to be going on and a little more info coming off the TVOC website - perhaps we are finally turning the corner?

Let's just hope it continues to gain momentum and we see 558 doing more Air tests soon.

ONWARDS & UPWARDS!

[Dis Gruntled]

Was so looking forward too reading the engineering update on tvoc website I thought at least some mention or answers to the many, many questions raised by people on all the forums, but alas nothing obviously its not just Dr Bob who doesnt pay any attention to the forums. :ugh:

[Flying Signman]

DG,

I hear what you are saying, but it is not Smilers job to answer in Engineering.

Perhaps seeing a news update on the home page is the start of something positive?

We will see;)

[Dis Gruntled]

Surely some of the questions were engineering related does he not speak to the people upstairs who say yay or nay on what to post. Please dont try too say that these are unanswerable due to client confidentiality it just will not wash.
Yet again the lack of even a small "yes we realise you all want answers and will do so asap" just reeks of uncaring about the supporters of this project.

[bubblesuk]

Dave has hit the nail on the head, even if they cant answer the questions asked of them it would do thier image no end of good to simply acknowlege them.

I know offers have been made to keep things on the site updated regularly on a voluntary basis. In sure people are reasonable to understand why the may not be able to respond if given a reason.

[Flying Signman]

This phrase on the current home page seems to partly address that issue:

• Watch this space early next week for continuing regular news updates and major developments with the publicity drive moving forward.


A step in the right direction, I feel. Let's see what transpires.;)

[bubblesuk]

DG,

I hear what you are saying, but it is not Smilers job to answer in Engineering.




Flying signman.

If it isnt the crew chiefs job to answer questions regarding the servicability of the aircraft then whos is it? The tea ladys?

Forgive me for saying this but your begining to sound like a T.V.O.C propaganda machine! Are you employed by them, or represent them and are you a 558 forum member by any chance?

[Flying Signman]

bubbles.

I thought DG was refering to other general matters with regard the running of TVOC, that's what I was refering to - sorry for any confusion.

With regard to "propaganda", I am a supporter of the Vulcan and obviously still hold the "Glass half full" opinion.

I am entitled to my opinion (as are you) and that is all I am doing with any of my postings.

[vickyv]

Dear Mr Mclelland,
I do not want to appear to br rude but if i want to express my feelings about the tvoc then i will.
Maybe it is about time that some people realised that there are people out there who have put their hearts and souls into the aircraft, have been royally shat on and still the lies and ineptitude go on.
I don't know how much the Trustees know, i think they get told what people want them to hear. The Lottery seem unreachable, Marshalls have their professional stance to maintain and so it feels like the only way people can reach out is to contact the very peolpe who are paying for the project and who pay the wages of those who seem to have the attitude that at the end of the day the good public will bail them out.

Someone needs to put a stop to it so yes, lets find a constructive way to stop the waste but let people to vent their feelings please.

[bubblesuk]

Flying signman

in your post i quoted you said it wasnt smilers job to update in engineering. how you can be confused escapes me. its fairly clear what dis gruntled is saying. and im glad your optimistic where theres hope etc! all good stuff!

As for the updates on the website fair enougth theres a little more info on donations etc but thats only a small part of the problem. Nobody can deny that there are some pressing issues hanging over T.V.O.C and untill they address these publically then the poor image rumours etc will not go away.

All it would take is for them to acknowlege these issues and if they cannot talk publically about them then explain that at least be seen to listen. And lets face it these are guys ( and ladys! apolagies vickyv) who were involved in the project that are expressing thier concerns and people will listen to them. In short T.V.O.C's efforts are simply nowhere near enough.

[Flying Signman]

bubbles,

"Was so looking forward too reading the engineering update on tvoc website I thought at least some mention or answers to the many, many questions raised by people on all the forums"

In DG's earlier post, which I took as meaning other issues with regard to the project.

Confused by me and not having read fully:

"Surely some of the questions were engineering related does he not speak to the people upstairs who say yay or nay on what to post. Please dont try too say that these are unanswerable due to client confidentiality it just will not wash.
Yet again the lack of even a small "yes we realise you all want answers and will do so asap" just reeks of uncaring about the supporters of this project"

Hope that explains......


As I have said myself, we are all awaiting clearer updates on progress with
the project - some are more optimistic than others of "hearing" the right answers.;)

[bubblesuk]

Ian

Still cant see whats to confuse about Dis gruntleds post but thats life i guess! interesting use of words that ie optimistic of "hearing" the right answers? i personally would like to hear the truth not what is assumed i want to hear, and im sure alot of people would agree. lol i see we have the return of the winking smilie! is this a hint of you knowing something we dont?

[Flying Signman]

Good grief - how much do you want to disect a post?

I am after the truth and never implied anything else.
Communication, or the lack of it from TVOC, has brought us to this point.

Let's all hope the next few weeks can be more enlightening as the project seems to be entering a critical stage.

I'm out of here...

[Dis Gruntled]

Just looked at the tvoc website and apparently Sunday 24th feb till sat 1 st march £9824.00 times 4 does that come too 50-75k.People please stop wasting your hard earned cash.

[Tim McLelland]

Oh well, let's hope TVOC do manage to achieve something because it's clear that nobody else will. Despite my pleas on here I see that people are still only interested in venting their frustrations rather than actually doing something constructive. I posted a similar message on Fightercontrol and it generated not so much as one reply. I asked Ukar to put the same message on their site but the guy who runs the site couldn't even be bothered - evidently he'd rather just allow pages of endless babble about the subject but when it comes to having a sensible discussion about what can be done - nooo, doesn't want to know - of course.

So there we are. The radio interviews have been and gone, the TV clips have been and gone, the letters to MP's, the questions to government departments, the campaigns, the "profile raising" and all for what? Nothing! I kept saying that the only route out of this was/is the HLF but nobody (not even TVOC) seem even vaguely interested in pursuing the one good chance they have of funding the project. Evidently they'd rather continue their endless quest for some millionaire benefactor that they must imagine will suddenly appear as if by magic. I don't know who is more crazy.

I find the whole business really, really sad. Having followed and supported the project right from the start I'm saddened to see that it remains under the control of a group who have the support and confidence of virtually nobody, while the whole project has now been seized-upon why every well-meaning idiot in the land it seems, all eager to "save" the project but nobody having a clue how to actually do it. Patently there's nothing else which can be done, so we may as well leave the endless moaning to run its course and just hope that there's some miracle before TVOC pronounce the project dead and disappear with whatever money that's left.

What a complete, utter waste of time and money it's all been, and what a shame that the aircraft wasn't purchased by someone else (preferably in another country) in the first place, so this whole sad saga could have maybe been avoided. Maybe Brits should stick to restoring Spitfires.

[kwh]

I'm sitting on my hands, hoping to hasten the day when TVOC has to throw in the towel due to not having any more money to spend.

If everybody else did the same, events would come to a head quickly. As it is, for as long as people remain optimistic and willing to donate money they can ill-afford in pursuit of an apparently unattainable dream, the project will obviously stagger on burning every last penny it can get its hands on, with the Vulcan firmly grounded but still locked in the clutches of TVOC, as the remaining keepers of the faith are bled financially and emotionally dry....

[gareth herts]

Tim

Forgive me if I'm wrong but your post on FC seems to be advising everyone to stop doing anything (including writing to MPs) as only the HLF can help. Correct?

It then appears to appeal to readers to speak to media commentators and high profile MP's etc.

Slightly contradictory surely?

Gareth

[saracenman]

Tim McLelland,

whilst TVOC themselves continue to do whatever it is that they do (or don't do), we club/forum members certainly have NOT ceased our efforts in the least bit. i for one am determined to broadcast OUR achievments far and wide; OUR publicity campaign really HAS been bearing fruit - the huge increase in membership is proof of that. MPs are STILL signing up and showing interest and the press campaign has NOT finished at all.

as for the HLF - i really feel that you don't quite appreciate how they operate - over the years they have given millions to charitable projects that have collapsed or failed - some that never even got going in the first place. that's the 'gamble' they take; they certainly don't chase projects around and inject more cash 'as and when'.

what i and others within the club/forum are endeavouring to do, is merely raise awareness to the wider population than TVOC (or their less than impressive PR agency) has managed so far. there are still very many people in the UK that are completely unaware of 558 - and the fact that they all own an equal share in her.

of all the 40 million adults in the UK - if only 10% of those gave £1 each that's £4m already - 1%? £400,000! personally, i don't want one penny of my own money going anywhere near the pocket of those whose job we have proven we have done for them - but i (as we all do) want 558 to fly! and i want the whole nation to know about it!

sm

[Flying Signman]

sm,
Agree entirely with you there. Well posted.


DG,
Add onto that figure of say £ 10,000 per week, the receipts from VTTS club membership (and Rusty has already intimated at a sizeable pot), then I fully expect the target is attainable.

Yes, we all have reservations of how the future looks, but short term, things are looking better than last week AND the week before.

That's got to be a positive.

[Hoots141]

I really hope TVOC get the cash together to get the project progressing!

I would love to have the opportunity to work on the airframe when it is scheduled to come into our place for winter maintenance! its the aircraft that got me initially interested in aviation!

[andrewmcharlton]

For the record ladies and gents, I sent off an email to Dr Bob with all of the points you all raised so I will advise if I hear anything back, nothing yet heard from CC or HLF on the FOI requests, I will chase them next week when I am back in the UK.

[vickyv]

WHAY HEY!!!

According to the tvoc website if you make a donation before 31st March you can get a free download/ ringtone of a genuine vulcan howl.

Guess that means we will be able to spot the suckers a bit more easily!

Had a rubbish morning - anyone fancy a real good argument?

[Evanelpus]

According to the tvoc website if you make a donation before 31st March you can get a free download/ ringtone of a genuine vulcan howl.

Woopdidoo, is there no beginning to their generosity.

VickyV - Having a crap afternoon myself, it's so bad, I can't be bothered to argue with anyone, even myself.

[andrewmcharlton]

How long before someone suggest "so what we're saying is if they sold the ringtone for a pound to everyone in the world with a mobile she might fly again....."

[speeddial]

Actually, it wouldn't need to be everyone in the world, a few large cities would be sufficient, although a few villages and hamlets wouldn't go a miss to help with sundry expenses I'm sure.

That's about as much as I can think of to try and start an argument.

[gareth herts]

I have no desire to simply hammer everything they do but a quick Google search reveals a downloadable "roar" from 558. I mean come on, if they want to put some incentives to donate in place it needs to be something with a value or perceived value.

[andrewmcharlton]

what about a "Loaded" lads mag type calendar, that would sell......download them to your mobile ?

[gareth herts]

They've got the world's only flyable Vulcan bomber and they offer something that anyone (who wants it) can download for nothing on the web.

Incentives aren't always easy to get right, but experience has shown me that people won't just download or sign-up to ANYTHING in return for a donation, even if they are passionate about the subject. You really need a "money can't buy" to trigger donations this way. I learned this the hard way with 10 years experience of marketing to football fans - their support isn't as blinkered as you might think!

Surely they can come up with something original?

Calendars often seem to do well actually - did they do a 558 2008 calendar with some specially commissioned photos? I'm guessing not - but it's one thing that could have exploited the post October euphoria following the first flight and the run up to Christmas. I hope they did...........but not holding my breath!

[saracenman]

honestly, what is it with some of you!

the ringtone/mp3 was a considered proposal by a few of the club members; it cost nothing to do, has all the correct authority and is actually constructive!

whilst we all got irritated by the 'crazy frog' if one person overhears that 'vulcan howl' in someones pocket and asks "what the hell is that?!?!", then that might just be one more person that gets to hear about the aeroplane that THEY PART OWN!!!!

in the absence of any credible PR in recent months, ANY idea that simply makes Britain aware of 558 is, in my opinion, a good idea!

at the very least, it shows that some people are trying to do something constructive with their spare time, rather than posting comments deriding such efforts!

the score line currently stands at TVOC 'Nil' - Club Members 'Several'

sm

[Tim McLelland]

I take it that there have been no further developments? I note that the subject seems to have run its course on the enthusiast sites (having gone absolutely nowhere of course) now so I guess that's the end of it unless anything emerges from the TVOC "black hole" !

Just to clear-up the points raised, Gareth, yes my comments might seem contradictory but I was hoping that encouraging people to make a fuss might achieve something. But after that, it became pretty clear that all the fuss was resulting merely in people either going-off and doing their own one-man campaigns, or simply issuing endless moans about TVOC, so it became pretty obvious that all the energy and enthusiasm was never going to be centred on a proper action plan. Sadly, as the days have progressed, it's become clear that my hunch was right.

Saracen, I do know how HLF operate - I spent quite a while communicating directly with them last year, trying to convince them to put more funds into the project (seen as nobody else bothered approaching them). We went round in circles of course, but their predicable claim that they are "powerless" to do more was patently nonsense, as they can of course treat every case on its merits. Ultimately, they seemed to accept this fact but (as predicted) they finally said that they would naturally be obliged to deal directly with TVOC to establish where the project went from there onwards. So it's anybody's guess what discussions took place after that, seen as TVOC never tell us. But it convinced me that there was certainly good reason to think that out of all the rather unrealistic hoping and praying, they did (and do) represent the best (if not only) chance of saving the project. Pity that nobody else seems to think likewise.

[gareth herts]

SM

I'm not knocking any PR efforts, although how this will generate column inches I'm not sure, but as an incentive to increase donations there must be something more original - or is TVOC so awful that they won't assist in coming up with anything that might help?

Gareth

[gareth herts]

Fair enough - I thought I'd gone mad and wasn't reading right!

Gareth

[vickyv]

OOOH!

Loaded lads mag a good idea.We could have the tvoc themselves staging various poses against the aircraft wearing nothing but their usual vacant expressions.
Second thoughts, it might actually reduce column inches!

Oh Saracenman, lighten up please.
Evanelpus.....bless.

[Cypherus]

Picture imitating the three wise monkeys might be the only result....:mad:

[Flying Signman]

Some new information on the site:

www.tvoc.co.uk (http://www.tvoc.co.uk)

[vickyv]

Looks like same old, same old to me.
Its ok saying they are well on the way to covering overheads until ist display flight in June but they have to cover the 85K up front to get marshalls back don't they?
Or are Marshalls going to let them off that as well?
Surely it would be better to focus on the funds for test flying first and foremost and reduce the overheads drastically by laying off all staff temporarily and only paying those that really have to be there every day.
Reckon people would have been sat around doing not alot recently especially with the authority to work on the aircraft having been withdrawn until recently. To me that adds up to alot of wasted time and money.
Don't get me wrong, i have eaten,drunk and slept this aircraft and first flight was one of the most emotional experiences of my life but there is nothing in the update that gives me confidence.

[Shaft109]

If VTTS, TVOC or whatever did a Ryanair style calendar with some pretty girls wearing not too much then I would but it.

If you want money from young lads then this is the only way to get it.

If it can make a 737 look good......

[andrewmcharlton]

Did I miss something ?

I was looking to see what new stuff was up on the site and tucked away below the usual give us money cry was the statement from the Chairman about their obligations under the companies act. Maybe I just didn't spot it, did anyone else ?

[forget]

Did I miss something ?

I certainly have. What are you saying :confused::confused:

[Cypherus]

It has been there all along Andrew, the usual threats of total shut down if the public and members do not cough up the goods 'Again', oddly this is the only time we hear much of substance from them.

[bubblesuk]

Apparently T.V.O.C have accepted they need to be more open, and while the update dosnt give a huge amount of news at least its (hopefully) a start. It dosn't mean im suddenly a member of their fan club, i'm just reserving judgment to see if they keep it up. Ever the optimist eh?

[vickyv]

Well even if they get Marshalls back (which they don't deserve), they will have problems anyway cos i've heard the key Marshalls personell that are needed to get 558 through test flights are all off doing other things associated with their jobs at Marshalls.
Pity the tvoc couldn't get their arses into gear a bit sooner so that IF they are allowed to have Marshalls back the guys could fit straight back in.
We will have to see if the Marshalls engineers want to go back anyway since there has been some definate personal accusations levelled against some of them by the management of the tvoc.

[vickyv]

Bring It On.

[Cluster One]

Update today on the TVOC website, including news that Robert Pleming will be doing an interview next week, but note that Ben Jackson is actually a BBC broadcaster, not Leicester Sound. Apart from that there is no news on flight testing. Does anyone have any hard news on this (not just speculation)?

Delta15/vickyv - please refrain from using this forum to have a slanging match, it doesn't help the cause!

Regards

[XL391]

This is taken from www.tvoc.co.uk (http://www.pprune.org/forums/www.tvoc.co.uk) this morning:
News Update 13th March

v £1450.00 raised at 2nd auction in support of XH558. This now brings the total raised at auction to by member Dickon Dearman £4,000.00 Our grateful thanks to Dickon and to Churchgate Auctions for this continuing support. Start collecting for the 3rd auction now

v £600.00 raised at Karting Day. Thanks to all those who came along to watch and cheer as well as the daring 25 who took to the starting grid. A great day was had by all and we a re reliably informed that plans are afoot to make this an annual event. Thanks to Roger and all his staff at March Hare Leisure Centre for donating their Sunday in support of XH558

Friends and Members can find illustrated reports on the Forum, and articles on both will appear in the Summer issue of The Vulcan magazine.

v Ringtone Download: This has proved as you would expect very popular. Thanks to forum member Bubbles and Saracenman, Paul Spann (webmaster), and Joanne White of Prime Time Video for the production of this


Ongoing

v Donations and New Membership: These are continuing at a very gratifying level. So much so that we have had to make room for several pairs of extra hands in the office to help with backlog of data input. However it is not yet time to rest on our laurels your continued efforts are still essential if XH558 is to make the start of the airshow season.

v EDM and No 10 Petition : Like rolling stones these continue to gather signatures.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/VulcanToTheSky/

Press & PR Plans are in place to start phase two of the current media campaign and we will keep you informed of where and when as it happens. Robert will kick off next week with an interview on Monday with Ben Jackson of Leicester Sound the exact time will be posted when available

[saracenman]

if you are one of 558's many supporters and you have your own website, how about adding a banner to your webpage. youtube, facebook, myspace - whatever!

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/downloads/vulcan-banner-large08v1.jpg

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/downloads/vulcan-banner-ani.gif

the Club's determined publicity activities over the past few weeks have had incredible effects; Parliamentary debate, media coverage - in excess of 1,000 new Club Members joining up in only a few days.

558 belongs to everyone - let's let everyone know!

all the 'official' resources are available at http://www.tvoc.co.uk/Resources.asp and their use is actively encouraged and definitely needed! just copy/paste!

we are but a hair's-breadth away!

sm







edit: check out the good news just updated on TVOC homepage:

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/default.asp

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Flying Signman]

This just off the Funding update section of TVOC website:

Funding Campaign Update from 18th February to 14th March 2008
You are simply the BEST
E-Donate to 6th March £22471.96
7th Mar £ 671.00
8th Mar £ 433.50
9th Mar £ 1095.00
10th Mar £ 290.00
11th Mar £ 320.00
12th Mar £ 550.00
13th Mar £ 281.58
14th March £1420.00
Total e-donate to date £ 27293.04
Direct donation to 1st March Donations to bank w/e 14th March £11856.60
Total direct donations to date £55467.91
Combined total to date £82760.95
Add Gift Aid (average 25%) £20690.23
GRAND TOTAL £103452.13
FANTASTIC!!!
And there’s more
Your efforts have given two of our long term philanthropic supporters the confidence to donate £150,000.00 of dedicated funds to finance the Test Flight Program
Extract from press release
“Once again, our supporters are significantly exceeding our expectations”, continues Robert Pleming. “Thanks to their continuing generosity, I am delighted to announce that we have now sailed past our initial funding target of £150,000, largely due to two major donations. But the decision to proceed could only be made be made by trusting our supporters that this fund-raising momentum will continue, because we are still reliant on maintaining a donation income of at least £50,000 per month to make it to the airshow season. Once we make it to our first few airshows, we are convinced that we will see both fund-raising momentum and sponsorship interest increase substantially
Dr. R. Pleming, CE, VTST
We are on the way but we do need to keep the momentum
Watch for full press release and further details next week

:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Delta15]

Cluster One.....totally agree, just a comment overheard in my local pub, will refrain in future.... hand duely slapped

[daddy flm]

The money is not the issue its the techs needed are (1) working away (2) on more profitable projects (3 )standby to support the UN in Africa (4) courses in April.

Also well done all who donated in trying to get 558 back in the air once done i can end my 32 yr affair with the tin triangle as the last 3 yrs and especially the last 6 months of back stabbing and attitude as killed of my interest in its future.

NO axe to grind with anyone but the Lies and Deciet and all round bull muck as sucseeded where the :bored:airforce failled

[vickyv]

Glad some funds are coming in. The aircraft deserves it. Just the tip of the iceberg though. She needs a couple of million to get through a season of flights.

Think the management and/or their friends are trying to dissuade posts maybe???? They need to think harder, the sex change hasn't taken !

Would like to have been a fly on the wall when the CAA visited on Thursday, hopefully they reminded the operators of their obilgation to operate safely ! Safety comes at a price (not peanuts)

:ok: I'm sure i'll be busy when you need me most.

[Cypherus]

“NO axe to grind with anyone but the Lies and Deciet and all round bull muck as sucseeded where the airforce (file:///D:/DOCUME~1/JAMESR~1.EDW/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]airforce) failed”


While gratified that the TVOC has announced that they now have enough funds to ensure the testing is completed am I the only one around that finds the published figures for donations currently received as not quite adding up, or rather conveniently adding up far too well, and please conspiracy pundits need not read anything other than an open statement into that comment.

They have just announced that rather well heeled persons interested in the project have out of the goodness of their hearts stumped up the required £150K in addition too the sums raised from donations giving the company the ‘Confidence’ to carry on operating, question I ask myself is why did it take a full blown crisis announcement too tease this amount from them.

This current round of problems they have had could not have been missed months ago, yet the “Mayday” announcement was only made officially on the website on the 18th of Feb leaving many people puzzled as to why they waited so long before openly admitting they were in trouble again leading too the so very obvious recriminations and accusations being levelled at the TVOC management and Board of trustees as too there handling of the situation.

The question of lack of information flow from the TVOC team has been one that has cropped up on a number of occasions, and while I would not go as far as saying that a campaign of lies and deceit has been waged against the public I would say the whole thing smacks more daily of the ‘Old School Tie’ network in operation.

[daddy flm]

my oh my

another misguided poster
peterout http://forums.airshows.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/Skin/Default/images/mem_offline.gif
Newbie


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Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: Aug. 2005http://forums.airshows.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/Skin/Default/PostIcons/icon0.gifPosted: 16 Mar. 2008, 22:22http://forums.airshows.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/Skin/Default/images/pb_quote.gif (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=Post;CODE=06;f=1;t=43943;p=549443)Perhaps my post above wasn't clear enough! A member of the Vulcan flight crew told me they are expecting to do 2 air tests (ie FLY it around for 3 hours) over the next few days - he said Mon/Tue/Wed actually. They were planning to start last week but admin(?) problems prevented it. Thats 2 days notice to me!

as i have said the technicians needed to complete the job are otherwise engaged i cant and dont believe mr masefield said anything of the sort as a guide imho when the programme restarts it will be at least a week to the 1st airtest and dependent on serviceabillity anothe two days to the 2nd / 3rd/ to permit about a 3 week timscale i would expect

as for the public viewing it WILL be a closed event unless tvoc are saying differant on their closed fourum

[Yellow Sun]

Is it not time for this thread to be moved to "Aviation History and Nostalgia"? It now contains a mish mash of reposts from other forums and a succession of back biting comments containing little information. The Vulcan is no longer in service and "558" is now a civilian aircraft. It is becoming hard to see how this matter is military related.

YS

[peterout]

I reported my conversation with Barry Masefield. How is that misguided? He has to turn up when he is asked to. I spoke to him on Sunday morning and he is not a bull****ter or misguided. He is a good bloke and he is always happy to stop and talk about the Vulcan. I may have misunderstood and he meant NEXT Mon/Tue/Wed as it was a Sunday we were speaking. This forum is a vicious place isn't it! If you don't know who Barry is do some research.

[gareth herts]

Why is it "misguided" to report what someone has told you?

Maybe the information is incomplete or maybe BM is wrong - but there is no need to be patronising surely?

[daddy flm]

gareth and peterout

shall we talk facts then

1 i have known barry for about 25 yrs on and off since the falklands conflict to be picky and dont need to be told hes a good bloke and worked with him for the last 3 years on the return to flight project

im not sure of what dates you are talking about mon,tues ,weds is it easter mon or the week after you obviously know that the clearance to release key personnel as been given by MA and assume that 558 is servicable and ready for flying.

No leaking pfcu and brake unit no functionalls required or testing no oop's codes etc to be done or indeed any schedule maintenance.

I think the dates barry may have mentioned is a wish list AND a would like to if possible ask

We the engineers will allways try to meet the demands placed on us and if seklected to go back to complete the testing phase then i know im professionall enough to put personal diferances to one side to acheive permit i know i have upset a few people within tvoc but no smoke without fire and will discuss my actions in private if they would like to or not its their choice.

So as for getting my facts right may i suggest that you look at your own house first

[gareth herts]

My god - what's with the attitude? If you read back I don't think you'll find either of us (and I don't know peterout from Adam incidentally) questioning your grasp of the facts. He was merely reporting a conversation and I was questioning the way in which you simply damned his post - a post made on another forum by the way which it appears you chose to bring over here just so you could put him down. Have you posted anything about it on UKAR?

I think the attitude there must have rubbed off on a few of those involved in the project......

[forget]

Could you please conduct your private arguments through PMs? :(

[gareth herts]

It's not an argument - it's defending someone who has been unreasonably hard done by.

It won't be mentioned again.

[peterout]

daddy flm

Apologies for the remark about researching who Barry was, you obviously known him very well. However, he did say on Sunday he was expecting to do Air Tests Mon/Tue/Wed and as you have pointed out next week is Easter then he must have meant this week. If 558 is not in a state to fly this week then I don't know why Barry said that - he must have been told to be ready by someone I guess.
Didn't mean to start an argument!

[daddy flm]

No attitude from me im the one who as given up 3 yrs off blood sweat and tears to the project and my reasons for my posts are understood by all involved in the project.

It is very frustrating when people post total dribble and are unable to back it up by facts.

As for peterout i have no problem with him or his posts but i accept he and Barry have not got the full picture as it is at the moment as i said its not a money thing tvoc have the funding required for which i congratulate them for, the flight dates will depend on manpower been released back to Bruntingthorpe and key people been added to support the project from MA site in Cambridge design and planning to name but two

From my point i would like to just go back finish what we started 3 yrs ago
give tvoc a flight worthy permitted aircraft to display to all and slip away in to the background and put to bed a 30 year affair with the old girl

[PPRuNe Pop]

Enough of this speculation, slagging, abuse and such.

From here on in the debate will henceforth be based on fact ONLY. Fanciful suggestions and
baseless veiled attacks will be instantly deleted. No excuses no explanations - they are gone.

It is clear to me that accusations have been borderline and some posters seem to be vieing for positions of oneupmanship and scoring dubious points.

The rule now is that the debate continues with only stuff that stands up. I would also ask that those nearest the coalface at TVOC should post updates here. It is right to do so since many here have made many donations only to find that they are asked for more. They are owed that - if only as a courtesy - but they do deserve more.

We at PPRuNe always look out for our members no doubt as TVOC do theirs. We do, therefore, expect them to be treated fairly and evenhandedly.

PPP

[Smiler558]

As you have asked nicely, we have taken 558 out today for it's monthly Anti-Det runs.

:)

[saracenman]

nice one smiler - thanks for letting us know. i trust she was well behaved?

all getting a good again me thinks.

sm

[Biker Boy]

Dear PPP,
Good to see you intend to control the content and remove the personal slagging from the forum, it was so pointless, very vindictive in some cases and achieved absolutely nothing over the last couple of month's, except to force us TVOC engineers to keep a dignified silence. However, in response to your comments I shall join Smiler and also stick my head over the parapet. No custard pies please. :ok:

Anything I can tell you engineering wise, particularly in the Avionics/Electrical field, I will gladly do so, as long as the request is polite and not anti-personnel. Management and Finance matters however, are not my baliwick so I can't help much there.:):cool:

[Flying Signman]

This just posted on the official site:

FUNDRASING UPDATE 27TH MARCH 2008
The current campaign starting on 18th February has produced to date :-
E-donates £ 30,000.00
Direct Donations £ 76,0000.00
Sub Total £106,000.00
Plus allowable Gift Aid £ 22,000.00
( not all donations are eligble for gift aid)
Total £ 128,000.00

This is great folks but we must keep up the momentum if we are to reach the 1st of June
This is plus the £150,000 ring fenced donation for £150,00 for Test Flights
Plus VTS Club donation of £20,000.00 ring fenced to finance fuel for display training

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Hmmm

I assume we have a misplaced decimal but not comma in ''direct donations'', & not seven hundred and sixty thousand pounds

£76,000 ?

:)

[Lancasterman]

When is her next flight as rumors were that it might be in a week or two?

[gareth herts]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but if any work needs doing between now and further test flights will it be you guys or Marshalls that carry it out? Or is it as simple as "it depends on what it is"?

I seem to remember a few people saying that because Marshalls were so busy that the timescales for getting airborne for the start of the season were very tight.

With everything crossed that she'll be at Cosford on 1st June..........

Gareth

[Biker Boy]

gareth herts,

Work has re-started and is progressing well under Marshalls Aerospace technicians and TVOC technicians. NDT on the main undercarriage legs has been completed and they have been re-assembled and retraction tests and all independent checks completed today. 20 Hour Out of Phase Servicing is almost complete and we look forward to being ready for flight in the very near future.:)

[gareth herts]

Thanks for the response - great to hear that all is progressing!

[Milt]

Please explain - what is an Anti-Det run?

Haven't heard of one of those since Vulcan Mk1 flight testing at BD and a little more with Mk2s Down Under.

Would love to get a handful of those mini thrust levers again.

When leaving Boscombe Down AVRoe presented me with a beautiful solid metal heavily silver plated model of a Vulcan Mk1 mounted on a marble base. I keep it polished. Probably a very rare item?

[PPRuNe Pop]

Milt,

A picture of that would be nice.

Talking of pictures, I somehow 'buried' those you sent me to post but I 'found' them two weeks ago. I will put them up after the weekend. My apologies for that.

PPP

[Cypherus]

Milt, Anit-Det runs or ‘Anti Deterioration’ runs are done to cycle all the critical lubricated components on and airframe in a controlled and regulated manner usually to a schedule, This can take from a few minutes to a couple of hours to accomplish and involves normally running up all the hydraulic, fuel, air and electrical systems, and grease and oil as required, again to a schedule laid down for each aircraft.

The results of this effort will be that all the seals are flushed with fluids to ensure they do not dry out and any sediments pulled to the filters, that any leakage can be detected for rectification and that all systems operate as they are supposed too, all pressures, temperatures and voltage/amps can be recorded and this will give an insight into the general condition of things.

From memory I recall the schedules laid out for an L1011 were spread over several dozen pages and did not always require the engines to be spooled up as long as ground services were available, not having seen those for the Vulcan I would guess they are similar in make up though now the airframe has been slimmed down some not as extensive.

By this means an airframe can be stored for long periods without flying at all as long as the runs are done and booked items maintained to schedule, in a very short period of time the aircraft can be brought back into service again signed off and flown.

[Vulcan 903]

For Flight Test # 2, would a Notam be issued? Sorry to ask a possible daft question here!

[sled dog]

Returning to much earlier posts, was Tombstone`s reputed exploits ever shown in the public domain ?
We need to be told :p

[BEagle]

No it wasn't. Neither did he send me the DVD as he'd promised......

[Cypherus]

Vulcan 903, I beleive a NOTAM will be issued prior too the test flights as it was for the first one.

[Biker Boy]

Tombstone:) The guy who promised to do something with a rose if a Vulcan flew again??? The rose is growing again and will only get bigger, pucker up Tombstone and take it now before the thorns get too big to bear!:eek::eek::ok:

[Biker Boy]

Hi Milt,

"Anti-Dets" are Anti Deterioration checks. We do them at 14 and 28 day intervals to prevent the aircraft degrading when not in constant flight use. Replenishment of gases and fluids, lubrication and some system run ups to exercise seals and equipments etc. At 28 days we take the aircraft for a wee waddle to the engine running area and run the engines, the Auxiliary Airborne Power unit (AAPP), the Powered Flying Controls (PFCU) and such other systems as/when deemed necessary, e.g. Airbrakes, bomb doors, VHF radios etc, as detailed by the approved schedule from Marshalls of Cambridge.

These anti-dets are performed by TVOC full-time personnel under delegated authorities from Marshalls of Cambridge. All very enjoyable for TVOC engineers and also a part of our ongoing training towards operations in the flying season.

Hope that helps:ok::ok:

[Smiler558]

Here's a link to the latest Engineering Update for you all

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/news/anmviewer.asp?a=245&z=2

:)

[Smiler558]

Here's the latest Engineering Update for you all

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/news/anmviewer.asp?a=245&z=2

:)

[TEEEJ]

'navw: Q)egtt/qrtca/iv/bo/w/000/030/5229n00108w003
From 08/04/10 09:00 To 08/04/23 15:00 J1754/08
D)apr 10-apr 11 0900-1500, Apr 14-apr 18 0900-1500, 21-23 0900-1500
E) Restricted Area(temporary) For Vulcan Test Flying At
Bruntingthorpe. Restriction Of Flying Regulations Made Under
Article 96 Of The Ano 2005 (mil Acft Should Comply With
Jsp552 201.135.9). No Acft Is To Fly Wi Area Bounded By Circle
Rad 3nm Centred At 522913n 0010750w Except Acft Flying
With Permission Of Operator Of Bruntingthorpe Aerodrome
Or In The Service Of The Leicestershire Police.
Aus 08-04-0262/899/as7
F)sfc G)3000ft Amsl'

[Vulcan 903]

2 week window then! Safe flying David, Al and Barry. Enjoy the flight.:ok:

[its the bish]

I see there is a NOTAM issued for today (Friday 11th) for Vulcan test flights at Bruntingthorpe 09.00-15.00 surface to 3000ft, anyone got any further gen. I assume it will be weather permitting!

[Flipper_T_Rox]

I thought I had heard the sound of Olympii earlier ! I'm ten miles from Bruntingthorpe, but the weather is pretty miserable today, so maybe I dreamt it . . .

[dogandgun]

1300 hours monday back on wednesday.

[Cypherus]

52.735981 0.656893 :ok:

[Smiler558]

Just a quick post to let you know that 558 is now serviceable and all of the OOP's and Anti-Dets are complete.

:)

PS No futher comment on anything else:=

[polyglory]

Magic thanks for the update:)

[Vulcan 903]

Weather gets better on Wednesday. Saying that weather never stopped the v force did it?

[Navy_Adversary]

BBC East Midlands news reporting that today the Vulcan will fly from Bruntingthorpe to RAF Cottesmore.:cool:

[sedburgh]

Cameras on the TVOC site show the hangar empty .

[FCWhippingBoy]

"Latest" from the Beeb ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/7345852.stm

Says tests on Monday afternoon and Wednesday :)

[Dysonsphere]

Looks good and the weather looks good lets hope theres some nics pics.

[Vulcan 903]

Crew are in. Start up in a minute!

[Mark Nine]

Keep us posted 903.
Need to know when to pop outside for a "smoke break", honest gov.

[Vulcan 903]

No power on yet. Engineers are around the undercarriage bay

[Hymie65]

It's a pity this can't be streamed live on the interweb!

[Vulcan 903]

I suggested that, at a planning meeting in October 2006.

[hunterboy]

Thank goodness for Youtube...I shall be having a look later tonight!

[Vulcan 903]

APU running

[Hymie65]

Goosebumps in early stages. Just closing my eyes for visualisation.....

(I really do need to get out more!)

[Mark Nine]

Keep 'em coming 903. :ok:

[hurn]

The anticipation........ :\

[Vulcan 903]

VERY SOON, Standby

[Mark Nine]

Bagsy me posting the 1000th reply!

[Al R]

Read this an hour ago, and scrambled with camera to Cott. Spoke to a very nice sqn ldr who told me that the landing was postponed until 1600. So, I've come home for wet weather gear and a flask, prior to subsequent redeployment. Which is about as exciting as it'll get for me today.

[Vulcan 903]

She's up - heading NE :D

[sthomp1955]

903 - you don't realise how many people are getting excited waiting on your posts - my whole office has been waiting nervously in Lincoln for you to report take off - Brilliant (and some of us paid good money to help even the second time VTTS needed it!)
Please keep up reports.:)

[BEagle]

Kleenex please, nurse!

[sled dog]

Will Tombstone be waiting with a rose ? :O :}

[gareth herts]

Run Al, run...............

[BEagle]

Tombstone has been deep and silent since he failed to provide the evidence.....

Mind you, after I rang the crew after Flight 1, they wimped out of telling the press about his promise!

"Calling Tombstone! Where are you?? Oh T O M B S T O N E!!!"

[Vulcan 903]

Pleasure to communicate this and keep cyber space informed. I have dispatched my guys to Cott to report on the arrival at 16.00hrs.

Well done Smiler for seeing her off safe and well.

[Hymie65]

Anyone know if this event is being captured on film? If so can this be made avail ASAP please.

[Vulcan 903]

BBC might be there. Try the East Mildands new at 6.30pm Sky Channel 680... I think, otherwise there (BBC's) web site should be updated soon.

[Lancasterman]

I imagine youtubes servers will be busy tonight!:ok:

[sthomp1955]

By my reckoning its about 25 crow miles from Brunt to Cott so can anyone enlighten us as to where it's gone and what it's doing in the meantime if eta is 1600? Or are the timings now different?
:confused:

[BEagle]

Type 2 (All Aids) + FRA at Wainfleet, then some fighter affil.?

I wish!

[GBALU53]

Congratulations to all for another step forward to keep her back where she belongs

IN THE AIR:ok:

[Vulcan 903]

The crew will be checking the systems, hopefully undercarriage retractions and testing the time the gear take to travel. 7 seconds if memory is right? Maybe Bomb bay travel time as well, and other air tests.
I am sure Smiler will tell us later how the air test went and what it entailed.

[m5dnd]

Reports say she is returning to Brunty now....

Well done to all those who managed to get her back in the air...

Cheers

[Vulcan 903]

She's on finals to Cottesmore - now.

[gareth herts]

According to other forums they've had a problem - APU fire? Now out but fire services on standby at Brunty.

Hope all goes OK on the recovery.

[hurn]

Apparently a mayday was issued due to a fire, but it seems to have been cancelled.
Possibly a spurious indicator?

[hurn]

She's landed - Cottesmore.

[Al R]

Well, she got there.

There were, as usual, the massive changes in rumour as to whether or not it’d land, and when, and from which direction, and whether or not there was a fire on board that scuppered things. Hopes were restored that we would be seeing something soon, when someone phoned ATC at Cott and was told that it was def going back to Bruntingthorpe without landing. Fantastic! That did it, off came the lens caps and sure enough, 2 minutes later, there she was.

A wonderful sight, and how smooth she sounded too. Dunno what she’s like under the skin, or if she flatters to deceive but she looked utterly magnificent, a credit to the guys working on her. Coming out of the sun, from Oakham she seemed graceful indeed. An afternoon well worth spending standing in a muddy field and some good chat to be had too.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m152.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m159.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m171.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m189.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m192.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m194.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m195.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m196.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m199.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/m208.jpg

[Vulcan 903]

Fantastic photographs! well done and sounds as if you had a great day.

[Gainesy]

That second pic is a cracker Al.:ok:

Suppose they'll have to bring up the stuff from B'thorpe to start it? Or would Cott have anything compatible?

[Eagle402]

Al R,

Many thanks for some great photographs - the shot of the flare with the heat haze is a beauty.

I was at Cranfield for the Reds/XH558 show and, mainly because my dad was part of the design team for the GPU's, was a contributor to the original fund.

Marvellous to see her aloft again.

Thanks again.

Eagle402

[hurn]

Lovely photos. Well done. :D

[Al R]

There were some serious snappers there with some proper gear - there will be some truly awesome shots on the way, I'm sure :ok: . Its nice that people for whom 558 means so much, are able to appreciate her.

[goudie]

That second pic is a cracker Al.:ok:


Concur Gainsey, never seen a pic of the Vulcan like that before. A great day for all her supporters.