Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)

[BEagle]

Good videos!

A shame that it will soon be only geeks and nerds who will be able to watch YoofTube as they are phasing out support for IE6.

So it's goodbye from me, YoofTube!

[Coastergirl]

Oh how daft is that?

Have you decided on an alternative video-hosting site yet?

[staplefordheli]

Yeh great video of her thanks

Didnt go at the weeknd due to prebooked ticket requirement (dont get me started :mad:)

But me and my 10 yr old for firts time went down at stupid o clock Monday leaving Oakham at 03-00 in the morning and getting there some 100 odd miles later at 05:15!! so we got a grandstand seat in the East P and V to see her depart and what a sight it was
Little man still hasnt stopped grinning over the ammount of aircraft that we saw takeoff.
Elderly chap next to us was amazed he knew the registration number before 558 came round the txi way till I pointed out he has the "pilot" mag poster of her on his bedroom wall (i suppose it will be replaced by some girl band in a few years time :eek: )
made up for all those false trips last year and only seeing her static at Waddo
Had the odd flybys incl over the house en route to Yeovilton the other frid night but never see her takeoff since the days of going to Brunty for her fast taxis (well almost took off a few times :ok:)
Will have to upload all the video I took on youtube
Must say the B1B Lancer was also aweseome in a different kind of way.

BTW not seen it posted but the staff on duty and some of the regulars reckoned the P and V was busiest ever on Monday and had to hastily double the enclosure to cope with all the folks.
Not bad at £20 a head on the day (worth it though)
Vulcan effect again

[hurn]

Lovely videos Coastergirl. :D Kevin does seem to be just a bit more aggressive when displaying the Vulcan. Hopefully all within current limits.

Don't worry about the wind noise. Thankfully it drowned out most of that God awful music that gets played nearly every time the Vulcan displays. :yuk:

[TEEEJ]

Great work on the vids, Rachel. A real pity that the clouds rolled in during the take-off run! I was over on the other side of the airfield. A few from Sunday.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0167RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0171RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0194RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0345RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0269RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0277RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0178RIAT09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0234RIAT09.jpg

TJ

[Vulcan 903]

Stunning photos!
Off to Odiham now to see 558 display at there Familes Day.

[JEM60]

Great achievement by everybody. Hope it keeps going, Saw it last year.I know I am being extremely picky here, but am I the only one who gets a bit irritated by the slightly over the top 'She' this and 'Her' that. It is not a beautiful woman, or even female. It is a metal, rubber etc.,etc., killing machine, which, though graceful, surely cannot be described as a 'she'
It is an 'it'. I can think of no other aircraft that is referred to in this manner, and, if any aircraft DID deserve such an accolade, it would certainly be, yes, you've guessed it, the HUNTER!!!!!!

[spekesoftly]

Can't say I'm too fussed either way if people wish to give an inanimate object a gender, but if we are going to be really picky then your suggestion woud result in the Hawker Huntress!:=

[Vulcan 903]

Nice display at RAF Odiham, found a spot to the east of the threshold and did the climb out right above me. Cleaned me right out :O
One of those days when I wish I had taken a camera to work:ugh:

[GeeRam]

I know I am being extremely picky here, but am I the only one who gets a bit irritated by the slightly over the top 'She' this and 'Her' that. It is not a beautiful woman, or even female. It is a metal, rubber etc.,etc., killing machine, which, though graceful, surely cannot be described as a 'she'.

I thought it was pretty common practice to refer to most mechanical contraptions as 'she'...beit a ship, car, aircraft, train or whatever....:)

I saw a T-shirt for sale in a motorcycle shop in the USA with the phrase...."If it's got t*ts or an engine, sooner or later, you've got problems!'

SWMBO wasn't amused at my wish to buy it :E

[srobarts]

Some piccies of today at Odiham:
Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket (http://s596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/jasperspaniel/Odiham%2022%20July%202009/?albumview=grid)

[Totally_Bananas]

Can any one post what other airshows the Vulcan will be seen at for the rest of the year?

[srobarts]

They can be found at the Vulcan To The Sky website here:
Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust (http://vulcantothesky.org/FlightOperations.asp)
Note the private displays like the RAF Family Days are not listed.
You can also follow XH558 on Twitter www.twitter.com/XH558 (http://www.twitter.com/XH558)

[BEagle]

Today at Marham would have been an ideal opportunity for 'Tombstone' to honour the pledge he made on 7 Aug 2006:

I will walk around every into each Sqn crewroom at Marham, naked with a rose between my arse cheeks, singing a song of your choice if the Vulcan ever flies again.

:ooh:

[chev1]

558 is displaying at Lowestoft and Cottesmore families day tomorrow, Cottesmore around 1500 from what I can fathom. Family days are private events but both my daughter and son in law are stationed there so I may just have to "drop in" on them tomorrow and may just find a need to run my daughter up to MT to see a friend:hmm:

[hurn]

I've heard he already honoured that pledge some time ago. However it would have certainly been a good day for an encore as 558 circled overhead. :E

[BEagle]

He claimed to have honoured the promise, but failed to provide the requisite proof....:hmm:

[srobarts]

For those of you going to Cottesmore/Lowestoft today this has just been posted on Twitter:
Today's flight CANCELLED. OOP inspection found a gear door bracket needs replacing; should be done today. More on vulcantothesky.org soon.

DamienB is doing a grand job at ensuring news is communicated as soon as possible.

[Vulcan 903]

That's a shame about today.

Have to agree with srobarts, Damien is doing a grand job getting the info out to us :D

[mustpost]

Yup.mebbees. But is it off or on tomorrow? at 2200-24/07 we should be getting a definite call...

[hurn]

Did you even read the 'twitter' link I posted in the other thread?

In case you missed it it reads:

Bracket replaced. Paper work in morning. Thank you very much XM655 @ Wellesbourne.Sounds to me like its fixed and just waiting to be signed off in the morning.

[TEEEJ]

Thanks for the comment, Vulcan 903. Another well done to Damien for keeping the updates flowing. It saved me a journey to RAF Cottesmore.

Some images from RAF Marham - 23rd July 09.


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0133XH558MARHAMFD09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0136XH558MARHAMFD09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0106XH558MARHAMFD09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0152XH558MARHAMFD09.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0159XH558MARHAMFD09.jpg

TJ

[srobarts]

Stunning pics TJ.

[814man]

In one of those strange co-incidences which happen in life just as I'm looking at these pictures I hear that unmistakeable sound and running outside I get to see a vulcan flying for the first time since I was posted from Waddington in 1981!!
For those interested XH558 just flew over my house in North Lincolnshire, 2 miles to north of Scunthorpe, heading north.
:)

[andrewmcharlton]

Just as my blackberry buzzed with the last posting I was out for a walk and there she was overhead Newbiggin, Northumberland en route East Fortune, glorious.

[deltapapa]

Dirct Hit over my house at 17.43 10 miles north east of Sleaford - beautiful :D

[hurn]

Dirct Hit over my house at 17.43 10 miles north east of Sleaford - beautiful :DHope you waved at the gibbon. :)

[TEEEJ]

Thanks Srobarts.

According to Twitter the next confirmed display is Whitehaven on 9th August.

TJ

[wub]

Have a look at these (not mine) from Windermere yesterday

The Vulcan 'experience' - Talk Photography (http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=151966)

[TEEEJ]

Thanks for posting the link, Wub.

Some more from Windermere at the following.

Windermere 2009 - The Vulcan Show (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13664)

Vulcan low fly (windemere) updated (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13650)

Windermere (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13671)

Vulcan Low over Windermere (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13685)

Absolutely brilliant that the guys on the other side of the lake got the light!

Well done guys! :ok:

TJ

[The Flying Stool]

Am I the only person that believes the Vulcan is being displayed far too sedately? I have seen the Vulcan display numerous times and it frequently fails to inspire. Yesterday I attended the Sunderland Airshow and witnessed the 'Vulcan effect'- the crowds rushing towards the display line to see the Vulcan. Many of those rushing there were of an age who would remember the vulcan displays of old. All were visibly dissapointed after the display. I have noticed this after every other display I have attended. The public are the financiers of the Vulcan and they deserve to see it displayed to a standard that shows off the aircraft well. As a first officer on an aircraft of similar dimentions (737-300), I am fully aware of the type of display that can safely be performed. I am also fully aware the the TVOC are trying to make the aircraft last up to 10 years, however, if it continues displaying in its current format, airshow organisers will not want to book the Vulcan as spectators will become bored of it. Although the aircraft is the only airworthy example and therefore it is understandable that the operators do not want to perform any manouvres that will shorten the fatigue life of the airframe considerably, I have seen much more rare and arguably more valuable aircraft (such as the BBMF Lancaster and Sally B to name but a couple) displayed in a more dynamic and sprightly manner.

Come on TVOC, give the spectators what they have paid for, displays that make the ground shake and your heart tremble! :ok:

[PPRuNe Pop]

The Vulcan has only 8 engines it can use I understand. They have to be used with discretion to avoid wearing them out too soon. But you are right, it does make the displays look a bit tame - after the years of throwing it around!

And............sorry to burst your bubbles but we do not give space on PPRuNe to other websites, although it has happened a few times, so please avoid posting links on PPRuNe.

As always, posting your own pics is welcomed. But not those displayed elsewhere.

[Albert Driver]

Come on TVOC, give the spectators what they have paid for, displays that make the ground shake and your heart tremble!

I was privileged to see the displays of prototype VX770 at Farnborough and elsewhere which did exactly that and which probably lead to the aircraft's destruction in the Syerston disaster. The Vulcan is a huge flying wing with massive aerodynamic forces on a relatively lightly-built airframe to give the lifting capacity required.

My vote is for it to be flown conservatively. The one certainty is that if it breaks we'll never see another one in the air. We've lost too many irreplaceable vintage aircraft, and not-so-vintage pilots, over the years though over-enthusiastic display flying.

[Gulf4uk]

Well Said somone talking Sense .Lets Have 558 Flying for as long as
possible . i for one have never seen anyone Dissapointed at the displays
put on and there are thousands looking for it along its route out and
Back .Its a great sight and sound lets keep it that Way ,
Great job guys ground and aircrew thanks some great moments

Tony
farnborough

[srobarts]

I have seen Brunty flying several times this year and the display has differed but never disappointed, nor have I seen disappointed people.
The trip that included Sunderland was apparently a 3hr 15min sortie and so Brunty would have had a belly full of fuel still for the Sunderland display - might that have had an effect.

[hurn]

Since when has the Vulcan ever been called 'Brunty'? :confused:

As for the sedate display, well I believe the airframe is fatigue and G limited at present, and they're down to six usable engines at the moment as well, although the other two haven't been completely written off as yet.

I'm sure if there were an abundance of zero timed engines available we'd be having all the power climbs and noise we could take, sadly that's not the case and engine cycles have to be managed effectively.

[El Bunto]

The Vulcan is a huge flying wing with massive aerodynamic forces on a relatively lightly-built airframe to give the lifting capacity required.

My vote is for it to be flown conservatively. The one certainty is that if it breaks we'll never see another one in the air.
An exciting routine doesn't have to be a stressful routine! Bob Hoover's stopped-engines Commander routine barely stressed the airframe beyond the nominal 1G.

See also the fuss caused by Tex Johnston aileron-rolling the Dash 80; to the airframe it was just another 1G cruise along the coast.

Aileron rolls are gentle and impressive. Snap rolls and slow rolls are stressful, unpleasant and impressive.

I am not saying that such manoeuvres are safe, just that what looks dramatic need not feel such to the airframe.

[Blacksheep]

Going back to the original purpose of the Vulcan, if its impressive you want, you'll need another two Vulcans and an ORP.... ;)

...besides, dropping things from the air is contrary to the ANO.

[srobarts]

For those expecting to see the Vulcan at Lyneham on Saturday and Whitehaven on Sunday the following was put on twi**er this afternoon:

Unresolved issue with port main gear and its approval for further flights; may need to cancel Whitehaven appearance. Further update Friday.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Any news? Are we getting her this Saturday?

Weather's picked up nice

[Evanelpus]

As for the sedate display, well I believe the airframe is fatigue and G limited at present

I doubt this will ever be reduced significantly. I also believe that when 558 left service with the RAF, the fatigue index on her was quite high (stands to be corrected though).

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Update, 7th August 2009
Friday, August 07, 2009 - Richard Clarke
We are pleased to announce that Vulcan XH588 has been declared serviceable and will be able to display at Whitehaven & Blackpool this Sunday 9th August. Subject to the usual caveats of serviceability & weather conditions.

[Lyneham Lad]

SPHL:-
Any news? Are we getting her this Saturday?


Reference Lyneham & Families Day - will she or won't she? Timing? I'll stick the 400mm lens on my 5D & sit in the garden waiting...

[west lakes]

A bit late

Approach and passing Kirkbride on Sat 26th July

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/west_lakes/kirkbride09/DSCF1753.jpg

bit out of focus sorry
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/west_lakes/kirkbride09/DSCF1765.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/west_lakes/kirkbride09/DSCF1767.jpg

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Arena Events and Timetable
1100-1120 Bath ATC Marching Band
1120-1130 Martial Arts Display
1140-1220 Tigers Motorcycle Display Team
1230-1255 Classic Car Parade
1300-1325 (Red Arrows Display, no event)
1330-1410 RAF Police Dog Display
1410-1450 RAF Falcons Para Drop
1450-1510 Bath ATC Marching Band
1510-1520 Martial Arts Display
1530-1610 Tigers Motorcycle Display Team
1620-1650 Section Chariot Race
1700 -1900 Evening Concert - Doctor Chocolate

The Flying Program for Families Day 2009 is subject to change.



12:40 Vulcan Lands to become a Static After Display
13:00 RAF Aerobatic Team (Red Arrows) Not Landing
13:26 Blades Display Team Taking Off and Landing at Lyneham
13:45 Strikemasters Taking Off and Landing at Lyneham
14:01 King Air Taking Off and Landing at Lyneham
14:13 CH47 (Chinook) Taking Off and Landing at Lyneham
14:17 Spitfire - Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Not Landing
14:34 RAF Falcons Parachute Display Team


I'll be selling my Herc Artwork wares at the RAFA stall, next to the PIMMS tent!

My gal will be doing Indian Head Massage for charridy also at RAFA stall (minimum donation £2.50 - bargain)

[Lyneham Lad]

SPHL

12:40 Vulcan Lands to become a Static After Display
Ta very much. Hopefully she will use the usual approach line, which means pretty-much straight over my house :)

14:13 CH47 (Chinook) Taking Off and Landing at Lyneham
Better not let the NOTW know about that... :ugh:

[mayorofgander]

Hi Gang;

Heard a rumour that the tin triangle may be putting in an appearance at the sercret airbase in Wiltshire....might just tip the balance to go and have a burger & beer on the rugby field!!

Anyone have any confirmed gen (& timings??)

Later;
MOG

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

PPrune won't allow me to post the link to the latest news but it's busted and parked at an ultra-secret base close to Carterton.

[threeputt]

According to the VTS website it is fully "s" and will be displaying at Whitehaven tomorrow, dosen't mention the LA though; I will keep an ear open for it as we are 8 miles on the extended centre-line for RW06
3P:ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Unfortunately the "official" site has been inaccurate in the past - note that appearances are "confirmed" until late September. I'm trying to get more information and will pass it on if I'm successful.

[SincoTC]

According to Vulcan ******* site five minutes ago, the Gear cycle's have been extended and it will display at Lyneham 1224 today & landing there and then do Whitehaven/Blackpool Sunday. :ok: fingers crossed.

[KarlADrage]

Just received a call from the guy who does their ******* updates. ******* is apparently experiencing "issues" so he's asked me to pass on the good news for the weekend.

As things stand she will be departing Brize for Lyneham around 1140, displaying, landing, overnighting and then departing Lyneham to display at Whitehaven (1545) and Blackpool (1620) tomorrow, before RTBing to Brize.

[KarlADrage]

Apparently airborne around 1200 local...

[mayorofgander]

Just back from Lye and the Vulcan was on time and very impressive. Rest of the display was good too. Well done to those who gave their time...it was appreciated!!

Later...MOG

[LOTA]

Saw it today flying around Kemble as I was in the car from Ciren to Stroud.
Nice!

[Lyneham Lad]

Well, I patiently waited in the garden, camera to hand on Saturday afternoon but to no avail as XH 558 sneaked into Lyneham round the back, so to speak. Luckily I left the camera in the living room and this afternoon managed to grab it just in time to snatch a couple of shots as she departed over Wootton Bassett.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/Lyneham_Lad/Aircraft/Vulcan_6923_v1_800.jpg

:D:D:D

[Spewing Stew]

I managed to see her twice today in Northamptonshire. Always a pleassure.

[The Oberon]

Thanks for the Scampton fly by yesterday afternoon, brought back lots of memories.

[coughing corner]

KAD said
As things stand she will be departing Brize for Lyneham around 1140, displaying, landing, overnighting and then departing Lyneham to display at Whitehaven (1545) and Blackpool (1620) tomorrow, before RTBing to Brize.

I thought its base was Bruntingthorpe, but it appears that its left and not returned there since the start of its display season. Have they made an announcement to that effect or am I missing something?

[bubblesuk]

She is operating out of brize for the season but has indeed left Bruntingthorpe for good, there is much speculation to where her new home will be.

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Approaching Kemble on Saturday morning, heard aircraft being asked to hold as the Vulcan was inbound for a practice display. Pulled into the layby, and although I only had the compact camera with me, managed to get a few shots.



Approach
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr144/pugwash09/Aircraft/WarwickAug09037sml.jpg
Overshoot
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr144/pugwash09/Aircraft/WarwickAug09038sml.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr144/pugwash09/Aircraft/WarwickAug09039sml.jpg

Departure to Lyneham

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr144/pugwash09/Aircraft/WarwickAug09040sml.jpg

[Lyneham Lad]

Announced this afternoon (11th Aug) in Flight International:-

Vulcan cleared for rest of display season following landing gear inspection (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/08/11/330862/vulcan-cleared-for-rest-of-display-season-following-landing-gear.html)

[Evanelpus]

Is it the old STI on the front and back (on the flat surface behind the separator) faces of the u/c that's the issue?

[mark25787]

Can anyone confirm what the "private event" is at Hawarden on 5th September? Is it being held at Hawarden Airport or elsewhere? I only live a few miles away so would love to be able to see her again (managed to be at Cosford earlier this year :-) )

[hurn]

Had my first sighting this year of the Vulcan flying, today at Bournemouth.

Looked superb. A lovely couple of low flypasts over the sea before powering out and flying onto Dawlish. :D

If fortune favours, there'll be a couple of full displays before the weekend is out too. :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Was on the BBC SW news doing its stuff at Dawlish by which time it had teamed up with the Red Arrows. Didnt look too bad - after all it cant help not being a Victor.

Runs for cover :E

[Vulcan 903]

Have to say the aircraft looks as if it's behaving now and the Op's Team are packing in the shows now, so good for them and getting the aircraft out to all those that fund this venture.

[XH558 Press Office]

We now have a Text Donation service in operation, designed to catch many smaller donations from the Air Show crowds we are attracting all over the country. These will perhaps not be conversant with all the other ways they can help us. The service will be announced over the Public Address system as part of the display commentary.

The donation is set at £3 and to use it, you simply text vulcan to 82055

Donations cost £3.00 + 1 std text message.
You must have bill payers permission for donation.
The Charity receives all donations after network fee and service charge.

Because of the fees, please do not use this system over any other method you might use to support the project.

A Thank You message is sent back, directing you to the Website and our Guest Book. On signing that, people also get introduced to all the regular ways they can help, so it will really market ourselves to the "casual" supporter.

Many thanks for your continued support.

[G-AZUK]

looked awesome today holding overhead Worthing beach for Shoreham today, which meant the thousands watching the Birdman Rally had a great display, looked like we got a longer unofficial display than Shorehams official one! because she was seen back overhead worthing no more than 10 minutes later heading West. Thanks chaps.

[Spewing Stew]

Newbury Today | Vulcan bomber's Newbury fly-past (http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article.aspx?articleID=10907)

Hope some of you can catch "our Lady" on Sunday.

:ok:

[KeMac]

Great stuff! Anything that keeps in her the public eye has to be good. It would have been even better if she started her run over Hungerford!:p

[T10]

Vulcan did several fly pasts at Wellesbourne today was fantastic took me back to when I was a young lad.
Bet the locals won't complain about Pa-28s in the circuit for a while!!!!
Seriously was good to see it.
T10

[KeMac]

Well - we drove over but no Vulcan! Does anyone know what happened????

[hurn]

Well - we drove over but no Vulcan! Does anyone know what happened????No idea, but the extremely low cloud yesterday wouldn't have helped.
They did get airborne for the flypast at Uffington and managed to get into Dunsfold and display, which many didn't expect given the weather.

All in all a very good effort from VttS. Must have been touch and go whether to stay grounded, but they got out there and gave the people something.
Well done all. :D

[Man-on-the-fence]

Vulcans do fly IMC :}:eek:

[PFR]

Not on a Permit to Fly they don't...or should I say they shouldn't:=..but I suspect Man-on-the-fence knows that:}

[Man-on-the-fence]

I know what I saw :eek:

[PFR]

All the more concerning then:uhoh:

[Tankertrashnav]

Vulcans do fly IMC http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


Serious question, but does this one? I hear that that so much kit has been stripped out the navaids consist of a car satnav and an AA road map! But as I say, serious question, and I'd like to know from someone directly involved.

[bubblesuk]

558 is restricted to VFR her limits etc can be found on the FAQ page on the tvoc website.

Why is XH558 limited to visual flying rules (VFR) only, and what are they? (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=513&z=19)

[hurn]

Well - we drove over but no Vulcan! Does anyone know what happened????
It turned up, but you were obviously looking in the wrong bit of sky! ;)

Newbury Today | Cold war bomber buzzes Newbury (http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article.aspx?articleID=10915)

[deltapapa]

the military flight systems were removed as they couldn't be or were too expensive to service [can't remember which, the first I think].

She now has a a Garmin 430 down the back & a 165 up front.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks bubbles and DP for straight answers to a straight question :ok:

[bubblesuk]

just adding to Deltapapa's post the military systems were removed because they were no longer needed, if they were to stay on the aircraft then they would have to be servicable as 558 has a 100% MEL. so it was simpler and cheaper to delete a whole load of systems.:)

[DHfan]

That explains where it was going. I was at the Didcot Railway Centre on Sunday. I don't know the area particularly well but that seems to fit with the brief glimpse I had of XH558 banking and heading SW-ish.

[Toddington Ted]

DHfan, you were clearly at a hallowed site then last Sunday amongst castles, kings and even a Saint. The Vulcan is a wonderful sight to behold but mid chrome green, copper, brass, black steel and steam is much much better! Even that Railway Operating Department liveried turd coloured 2-6-0 looks good! Back on thread, I wonder if the tin triangle will ever be painted in the anti-flash white scheme? I guess they might do it if the cash was available. (Checks wallet....no):\

[DHfan]

A hallowed site indeed, and far too many years since my last visit. No to the brat-dung Mogul but the Brunswick Green was much better. Even the Apple Green interloper was acceptable.
Sorry about the OT interlude.

I did suggest t'other half kept her eyes peeled in case we saw the Vulcan on the way down. I wasn't entirely serious as I didn't really know where Brize was, apart from Oxfordshire somewhere. Fortunately she spotted it after we arrived, only a few seconds but as we don't think there'll be another chance for us this year, it will do.

Anti-flash white would be good. My first airshow and clear memories of a static white Vulcan. Bassingbourn, September 1958 and all of 6 and a bit years old. A lasting impression. It may have flown too but I don't remember.

[hurn]

Back on thread, I wonder if the tin triangle will ever be painted in the anti-flash white scheme? I guess they might do it if the cash was available. (Checks wallet....no)http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gifThe Vulcan in anti flash white is definitely on my 'to do' list when I finally win the euro millions lottery. :}

[virgo]

I can't go through 140 + pages to see if this has been asked before, so ............Why is the underside of XH 558 camouflaged - or were all Vulcans painted similarly ?

[Matt Jones]

It was part of their change to a low level role.

I would dearly love to see it in anti flash white too but they're struggling again for cash just to keep it airborne let alone a re-paint.

[srobarts]

Most of the photos show Vulcans in service as having a light coloured underside (grey?). Is the camouflage underside used for display purposes so the mighty one can be seen against the sky?

[DickieBird]

Vulcan overflew Kidderminster yesterday around 1530. Going to?....From?... Anyone know?.

Thanks

Dickie

[BEagle]

See Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/)

Better still, become a member and you can find out a lot more!

[Tim McLelland]

As said, the Vulcan's undersides were (for many years) painted Light a/c Grey which looked almost white on the aircraft. Prior to using grey, the aircraft wore gloss white (with grey/green camouflage tops) and this was seen on all aircraft when they were first camouflaged, the underside grey beginning to appear on aircraft in the early 1970's.

The wrap-round camouflage appeared in the early 1980's and was only applied to a few aircraft. This was simply a continuation of the upper surface camouflage (a mirror image in fact) but the Medium Sea Grey was changed to Dark Sea Grey (combined with the Dark green) overall. Most Vulcan's were withdrawn before they reached repaint stage however.

XH558's story is slightly different. It started-off overall white (like all the other B2's) and then received Medium Sea Grey/Dark Green upper surface camouflage with white undersides. By this stage it had been converted into a MRR machine and it was later given a gloss finish, and the underside was changed to Light Aircraft Grey and it remained in this scheme until it was converted into a tanker and subsequently withdrawn.

After operational use, the aircraft was selected for air display use and it was flown to Kinloss where it was painted in the finish it now has. Although they opted to copy the wrap-round camouflage and colours, they applied a gloss finish (the operational aircraft had a matt finish) so the result looks slightly strange and more contrasty. They also gave the finish a slightly soft sprayed edge in parts and although this was often seen on MRR machines, the overall-camouflaged aircraft all had hard-edged camouflage, so again XH558's finish looks odd in comparison. So that's basically why she is as she is - it was simply a random paint scheme applied at Kinloss for air display flying. The ECM intake was removed when the aircraft was converted into a tanker but this was never replaced so again XH558 is unique in this respect.

It's a shame really that she doesn't look like an operational Vulcan but I guess anything is better than nothing! If I win the Lottery I think I'll be offering to get her painted in proper camouflage with a white underside and full colour insignia - and get that RWR box taken off the tip of the fin!

[forget]

XH558's story is slightly different. It started-off overall white (like all the other B2's)

Not so. Late deliveries to Coningsby/Cottesmore, 64/65, arrived with factory fresh camouflage on the upper surface.

[Tim McLelland]

Well yes, if they were delivered late enough, but with regard to 558 it was delivered in overall white like all the others. The only unknown aspect really concerns the aircraft's intakes as one image exists of the aircraft at Woodford with the lower lips covered by a tarpaulin. This suggests that it might have actually been completed with the smaller B1-type intakes which the first B2's had, and had the deeper intakes fitted later. Haven't managed to find any proof of this either way though sadly.

[forget]

........ it was delivered in overall white like all the others.

Eh? :confused: The point of yours I'm correcting is that 'all the others' were not delivered in overall white.

[Spewing Stew]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8240500.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8240500.stm)


:ok:

[Tim McLelland]

I'm correcting is that 'all the others' were not delivered in overall white

yes, I think we all got that thanks very much

[ARCHIE1]

Thank you, Spewing Stew. An impressive display in any colour scheme....

[hurn]

While we're on the subject of old schemes, can anyone give a definitive answer as to why the white and early camouflage painted Vulcans had the underside of the nose (painted?) black, while the later camouflage schemes didn't.
Possibly something to do with the radar?

I've heard varying possibilities given from people, but no-one has been able to give definite answer.
Many thanks.

[Tim McLelland]

It's an interesting point which I've enquired about as well and I've never found any official reason for it. Best guess is that it was simply deleted when the later paint schemes were introduced. It's interesting that 617 Squadron adopted a black-less radome whilst their aircraft still wore the grey/green and white paint scheme but this paint scheme was virtually unique to that squadron, so unless one imagines that their radar equipment was different to that used by all the other squadrons, it must have simply been a change in taste rather than being down to any technical reason. It might be worth noting that the VC10 fleet lost their black radomes too, and again I haven't seen any reason to suggest that this was down to anything other than aesthetics - or perhaps a desire to save a bit of money!

[BEagle]

You could say the same about the Hercules, Phantom and Tornado for that matter. Or even pusser's Sea Vixens.

As for the 617th Bombardment Wing having different radar to the rest of the V-force, forget it. Although it might perhaps have helped them to obtain better BombComp scores, were it true.

[Tim McLelland]

You could say the same about the Hercules, Phantom and Tornado for that matter. Or even pusser's Sea Vixens


Fair point Beagle - I think it must have just been a fashion fad!

[Barksdale Boy]

The first airframe to feature wraparound camouflage was that flown by OC/RAF Det during Night Red Flag in Nov/Dec 79 at Nellis AFB (in fact known as Red Flag 80/1 for USAF budgetary reasons). Of the four aeroplanes used, it was certainly not XL 426 nor XM 606, but may have been XM 612; I cannot recall the fourth airframe.

As for 617's bombing pre-eminence during 1979-81, particularly over their Scampton Cowboy neighbours, it was simply down to better nav radars.

[Blacksheep]

Originally, radomes were black because it was a special radome paint that needed less preparation and primer and had less attenuation effect on the ground mapping radar returns. Later developments in paint technology included coloured pigments. As to 617 having a unique paint scheme - I find that hard to explain as, during most of the time the Vulcan fleet were wearing camo on top with white undersides, the aircraft were allocated to the "Wing", were centrally maintained and were shared by all squadrons. In fact they swapped stations pretty often too.

As to matt finishes, although many Vulcans appear to have a matt paint finish in photographs, they actually came out of the paint shop in gloss, but it weathered very quickly to a matt appearance, a result of sixties paint technology - and an effect often seen on sixties motor cars, especially Vauxhalls! You would see much the same thing if you looked at a lot of photgraphs of VC10s during the sixties and early seventies at the time 10 Squadron were referred to disparagingly by the Britannia squadrons as "Shiny Ten". Shiny fresh out of a Major and already matt before the next Minor.

[superspotter]

This was taken on Saturday morning 05/09/09 as she was about to depart Brize Norton:-
http://newimages.fotopic.net/?iid=1ys4y8&outx=800&quality=80

[Tim McLelland]

As I mentioned before, my view is that the radome black was dropped because it wasn't particularly effective (in terms of improving the radar picture) and therefore unnecessary. I've never heard of any other reason why it disappeared so I can only assume it simply dropped out of fashion!

As for 617's Vulcans, I have no idea why they opted for black-less radomes either. The grey/green finish with white undersides and a non-black radome wasn't unique to 617 but it appears to have been applied to all of their aircraft for a period (or at least all the ones wearing their markings) and I seem to recall there were one or two other units which had similarly-painted examples, but 617 seemed to be the main recipient. All very odd!

Camouflage; well yes, most of the early camouflage schemes were applied in gloss but the wrap-around grey/green was definitely applied in matt finish. I suspect most of the later Medium Sea Grey/Green/Light Aircraft Grey finishes were also applied in matt too as they contrasted starkly with the gloss-finished B2(MRR) aircraft - doubtless there were exceptions though! I would assume that gloss finishes were abandoned when they switched from grey/green tops with white undersides (and started applying Light Aircraft Grey) the only exceptions being the MRR machines.

[Tankertrashnav]

May I temporarily hijack this thread to advertise next April's V Force reunion at Newark Air Museum. There is already a thread about this on Military Aircrew, but you can go direct to the reunion website via this link V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) I dont know whether XH 558 will be putting in an appearance, obviously it would be tremendous if it did, but that will be a matter for NAM and Vulcan to the Sky. Anyway if the 2004 reunion was anything to go by it should be a great weekend for all ex V Force people, of any rank, aircrew and groundcrew.

[MoateAir]

Maybe en-route to this.....

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Leicestershire | Vulcan bombing mission re-enacted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/8240485.stm)

Nice video, but don't read too much into the text.

[hurn]

Originally, radomes were black because it was a special radome paint that needed less preparation and primer and had less attenuation effect on the ground mapping radar returns. Later developments in paint technology included coloured pigments.That's something I've heard before and sounds plausible so perhaps could be true.
Sadly though, it seems there just isn't one conclusive answer for the reasons behind the black radomes so I'll probably never know for sure.

With regards to paint schemes, I think that 558's gloss finish, although not accurate has stood the test of time pretty well.
Apart from the spruce up on the roundels and tail markings the rest of the paintwork is pretty much original and still looks good.
Same can't be said for the old wraparound matt scheme on XL426 however, which looks pretty awful up close these days.

[Spewing Stew]

558 airborne on route to BZN

[Muzzey]

Does anyone know if XH558 appeared at the Leuchars air show - the ******* page only says "parked at Brize" for today :(

[TEEEJ]

Muzzey,
XH558 did indeed attend and displayed at RAF Leuchars.

Images here

Leuchars 2009 (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15708)

TJ

[Muzzey]

TJ

Thanks so much for your reply & excellent photos - It looks like a fantastic flying day, I was worried XH558 had suffered from the weather bug or worse but clearly not! - thanks again
I "only " saw a fly past by the Reds at Wroughton (Nr Swindon) today - very cool & professional chaps indeed!

Muzzey:ok:

[PFR]

Courtesy of TEEEJ - That's too good not to share:ok:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/968Man/VulcanLeucharsXH558-21.jpg

For the Vulcan flyers amongst us - I presume that's within limits:eek:....our did TJ place the image upside down:}...are we rolling:cool:

[hurn]

That's another one of Kev Rumens' take-offs, similar to the Sunday at RIAT.

I would assume its all within limits, else the crew chief would have put a stop to it after he did it the first time.:p

There's some footage of it here:

PJlp0g-F6-A

[TEEEJ]

Hi,

Sorry, none of the images are actually mine. I was just posting the links. More excellent images from RAF Leuchars can be found at the following.

Airshow Photography • UK Airshow Review Message Board (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=8)

TJ

[bubblesuk]

Kev's wing overs are within limits.:ok:

[hurn]

Last display of the season this Sunday 27th at Southport.

All in all its been an excellent season imo, despite the early PtF debacle, and I've had the pleasure of seeing two displays and a flypast from the old bird this year. :D
The whole team has done well getting out there to the public, and serviceability has been pretty good this season. Just hope that can be funding can be found for 2010.

[GeeRam]

Can anyone tell me who was flying it last Saturday for the display at Goodwood Revival?

I didn't know it was down to display, so got a very pleasant surprise when I saw it flash past the tress behind the beer tent at what seemed about 100ft on a very quite 'idle' sneak approach to the circuit :ok:

Made my day..... one day short of being exactly 17 years since I had last seen it fly :)

[Synthetic]

Watching Hurn's video (thanks) reminded me of when she really did make the ground shake like that:E

Fair play to all involved with her and her serviceability record this year after a shaky start last year.:D:D:D

[Smiler558]

It was Martin Withers, Bill Perin and Barry Masefield on Saturday and Al McDicken replaced Bill on the Sunday.

:)

[Smiler558]

For those of you who are interested the latest Engineering Update has been posted on the TVOC website.

:)

[airsound]

For anyone who's interested in efforts being made to get sponsorship

VIDEO: Vulcan to the sky-04/10/2009-Flightglobal.com (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/04/333049/video-vulcan-to-the-sky.html)

airsound

[Vulcan 903]

At last... a b**dy good promo vid of XH558.
It put the hairs up on my back for sure. If might open my wallet too!

[PFR]

Excellent promotion - awesome:D How do you get a copy:O Good luck TVOC:ok:

[Cypherus]

Great promotional video, Hope it brings in sponsors now that things are begining to pick up in industry.

[Vulcan 903]

Announcement at 14.00 today.

[XH558 Press Office]

XH558's 50th Birthday Appeal is launched: www.vulcantothesky.org (http://www.vulcantothesky.org)

[Spewing Stew]

Looks brilliant, my support is as strong as ever & will increase my S O very soon. Thanks PA28 for your hard work :ok:

[Load Toad]

The English Russia link has an interesting picture...

English Russia Abandoned Military Object (http://englishrussia.com/?p=5640#more-5640)

[airsound]

I hesitate to rake over coals that have by now lost much of their earlier white heat. But a new development has belatedly poured some extinguishing water on an unpleasant conflagration. And at the risk of stretching this metaphor beyond twanging point, I feel that that earlier heat singed so many feathers that the new circumstances deserve wider dissemination.

After the regrettable events at Waddington, when a serviceable XH558 couldn’t fly because her permit had expired the day before the show, a huge amount of abuse was hurled around by all and sundry, much of it aimed at the Vulcan To the Sky Trust. My attempts to defend VTST put me firmly in the firing line of some heavy-duty slagging off on this forum, some of it official. I retired temporarily hurt, sense of humour failure light flashing.
(Page 125 of this thread, and many pp thereafter)

So it was with some interest that I read an interview with Padhraic Kelleher, Head of Airworthiness at the CAA, by Gary Parsons of Key Publishing. There’s plenty of interesting stuff, but the interview starts with the Vulcan permit problem. Mr K comes down firmly on the side of VTST.
They (VTST) behaved impeccably, and just what you would hope for an organisation that’s in charge of such a fabulous symbol.
and
We always envisaged that for the truly complex ex-military aircraft you would need the right kind of team behind it, and one has to salute the Vulcan to the Sky Trust to be able to put the right team behind it.


You can see the whole thing at
Right to reply: the CAA speaks: Key.Aero, Airshows (http://key.aero/view_feature.asp?ID=35&thisSection=airshow)



sean
airsound
commentator for Vulcan XH558

[andrewmcharlton]

Thanks for that Airsound. However, does it clarify why wthe application was rejected / refused / not filed in time and who is accountable for that aspect of things?

I see from the website that we're edging closer again to a pass that hat or else scenario or am I reading too much doom in to their published figures (for which I do commend them).

AMC

[airsound]

Andrew M
who is accountable for that aspect of things?
Mr K doesn't commit himself too firmly on that score, but he is quite firm about who was not accountable - that's to say VTST.

On your other point, I'm sad to have to say that I believe that the
pass that hat or else scenario
is going to continue to be the periodic norm unless and until some major commercial sponsorship comes along. Enormous efforts are being made in that direction - one small example of which is the short film that I'm sure you've seen

YouTube - Avro Vulcan XH558 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNDZvpScfIw)

and indeed a new Chairman (and Deputy) of the Trust have recently been appointed with a view to further sharpening the push to get to an appropriate level of sponsorship.

airsound

[Treble one]

If You are going to selectively quote from this article, may I join in please?

key.aero: “If we could start with the Vulcan; I think everybody knows that the CAA has been quite supportive. It’s flown, but we had the issue in early July where the Vulcan flew in to Waddington’s International Airshow on the Thursday, but then on the Friday the Vulcan Operating Company said, “We can’t fly, our permit’s run out”. Now, a lot of people know the problem lay with the operators as the paperwork wasn’t in order, but there’s also an undercurrent that’s thinking the CAA could have been a little bit more flexible, maybe given an extension to the permit for a few days to allow it to fly at the airshow. Can you tell me what actually happened behind the scenes and all the efforts that were made to make it happen?

Padhraic Kelleher: “I’m pleased to have the opportunity. I remember hearing the howls of protest and seeing some of the more respected journalists carrying effectively one rumour built into another, and suddenly that became ‘reality’. If it was just a simple matter of extending the permit for a couple of days, that would have happened. It wasn’t the case; sitting behind the Vulcan’s Permit to Fly is an understanding about how safe that machine is. Behind that are teams of people, not at the CAA, but in the Vulcan to the Sky Trust and Marshall Aerospace – behind those there are probably dozens of other specialist companies, and many of them very well known in the industry, who in their own way are offering support, proof, taking care that things are safe.

“The reality was that one of those very large specialist organisations was telling us they were not content with the structure of the aircraft – this only came to a head at the unfortunate time when the permit was due for renewal. In the end, when we had got the right analysis done and the right assurance in place, we had a letter that said, ‘We’ve done the work.’ That was turned round here the same day. So what was the CAA’s role? Frankly, our role was holding the ring for the other players. The thing I was amazed at was the announcement that the CAA had grounded the Vulcan! Well, I would have been the one who did it, and I can tell you I didn’t. In fact, I didn’t even have the opportunity to do so!

“We took a lot of care before committing real lives getting airborne in this machine; we’re equally committed to making sure that that’s the ongoing situation as well. We’re also concerned about what will happen to onlookers and the local population if anything goes wrong. This aircraft is such a huge symbol of what the airshow circuit can do, but we don’t want it to go horribly wrong and completely tarnish that image. There’s a lot riding on getting this one right.

“It would be wrong to say the Vulcan to the Sky Trust was trying to get it airborne come what may. In fact, they were fully on board with saying they couldn’t proceed. They behaved impeccably, and just what you would hope for an organisation that’s in charge of such a fabulous symbol.

“Behind the scenes engineering tests were being done, analysis was ongoing, and there comes a point where either those are all in place to allow you to continue, or there are doubts; and where there are doubts, and they’re about issues that are significant from a safety point of view, you don’t want to commit to something that you don’t feel confident about, and that was certainly the case here.

“We’re all enthusiastic to see the aircraft safely commit to the sky. I was quite pleased that at the end of that weekend we had a nice little note from the Trust to acknowledge that we had guys working on Saturday trying to make things happen for them, but when you don’t have to hand the proof, the assurance that you know you need from an engineering point of view, it really is folly to try and press ahead, and that’s where we were.”

Just making sure that the context is correct, if that's OK?

BTW Good luck to all the VTTS team and their fundraising efforts.

[flipflopman RB199]

Treble One,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that!!

Airsound, with respect, your post has not only a spectacular amount of spin contained in it, but also, as Treble One picked up on, an enormous amount of omissions. I have stayed away from this topic for as long as I possibly could have, but your post has forced me to comment due to the unbelievable amount of spin you have put upon Mr Kelleher's statement. Allow me to elaborate...

Padhraic Kelleher in his statement referred to the CAA having to be satisfied as to the structural integrity of the aircraft, and how "several large specialist organisations" were not "content" with the state of the aircraft. Those organisations were none other than BAE Systems and Marshall Aerospace, due solely to the fact that TVOC had not carried out the Fleet Sampling checks that were mandated by these organisations to be carried out upon XH558, as it was the only Vulcan in the fleet. Talks between TVOC, BAE, Marshall Aerospace and the CAA lead to a concession that the checks could be deferred and taken place using XM603 as sample due to the fact that the areas concerned (Fin Bolts etc) would be in a similar condition, having been preserved under a layer of sealant, and would be acceptable from a safety point of view. Flight then took place, along with an extended period of "Servicing" during which time TVOC had the opportunity to carry out the neccessary work on XM603. This work never took place during this time, for reasons best known to TVOC and so the situation occurred at Waddington where the aircraft was without a permit due to a situation that could, and indeed was resolved within a short period of time with the work being swiftly carried out and letter of "We've done the work" being sent to the CAA, and the CAA stamping the permit that day

Unfortunately, the problem is not, nor ever has been with the CAA, more the enormously inept and unqualified "Management" that afflicts it...

I could go on and on on this subject, but shall withdraw gracefully...


Flipflopman

[Tim McLelland]

It would be wrong to say the Vulcan to the Sky Trust was trying to get it airborne come what may. In fact, they were fully on board with saying they couldn’t proceed. They behaved impeccably, and just what you would hope for an organisation that’s in charge of such a fabulous symbol.

I think a lot of us would take issue with part of that statement. The Waddington fiasco was clearly not the CAA's fault. No matter how you look at the saga, it was VTTS/TVOC that created the problem. They were fully aware of the fact that the aircraft would not be permitted to fly and yet they still allowed the aircraft to be flown to Waddington and even fly a rehearsal display before being grounded. Clearly, this gave the impression to everyone (ie- every potential show-goer) that the aircraft would fly during the show, even though it must have been clear to all concerned that it would not. So, VTTS/TVOC wilfully misled the public. It wasn't the fact that the aircraft didn't fly which annoyed people, it was the fact that VTTS/TVOC could have informed the public of the situation before they turned-up and paid their money.

Nobody expects these people to perform miracles but this kind of cynical manoeuvring does nothing to restore people's faith in an organisation which has consistently relied upon non-communication and half truths for years. Claiming that they "behaved impeccably" is stretching things way too far!

[hurn]

Flipflapman, you said:
Padhraic Kelleher in his statement referred to the CAA having to be satisfied as to the structural integrity of the aircraft, and how "several large specialist organisations" were not "content" with the state of the aircraft. Those organisations were none other than BAE Systems and Marshall Aerospace, due solely to the fact that TVOC had not carried out the Fleet Sampling checks that were mandated by these organisations to be carried out upon XH558, as it was the only Vulcan in the fleet. Talks between TVOC, BAE, Marshall Aerospace and the CAA lead to a concession that the checks could be deferred and taken place using XM603 as sample due to the fact that the areas concerned (Fin Bolts etc) would be in a similar condition, having been preserved under a layer of sealant, and would be acceptable from a safety point of view. Flight then took place, along with an extended period of "Servicing" during which time TVOC had the opportunity to carry out the neccessary work on XM603. This work never took place during this time, for reasons best known to TVOC and so the situation occurred at Waddington where the aircraft was without a permit due to a situation that could, and indeed was resolved within a short period of time with the work being swiftly carried out and letter of "We've done the work" being sent to the CAA, and the CAA stamping the permit that dayRegarding the parts I've highlighted in bold; we simply don't know why the work on XM603 wasn't carried out. It could have been anything from TVOC lacking the manpower to BAe not allowing them onsite to carry out the work during that period. We all know it should have been done, but unless you can inform us exactly why it didn't occur, it's probably a bit unfair to speculate it was all TVOC's fault.

The other point is that I thought that the permit, when given, was just a three month extension to the current one and the work on XM603 still had to be done. I could be wrong, but that's how I saw it.

The whole Waddington issue as I understood it was because TVOC had been given assurances they could get a three month extension to the permit, and for whatever reason that didn't happen on the day despite all the efforts to get it sorted.


Tim, you said:
The Waddington fiasco was clearly not the CAA's fault. No matter how you look at the saga, it was VTTS/TVOC that created the problem. They were fully aware of the fact that the aircraft would not be permitted to fly and yet they still allowed the aircraft to be flown to Waddington and even fly a rehearsal display before being grounded. Clearly, this gave the impression to everyone (ie- every potential show-goer) that the aircraft would fly during the show, even though it must have been clear to all concerned that it would not. So, VTTS/TVOC wilfully misled the public. It wasn't the fact that the aircraft didn't fly which annoyed people, it was the fact that VTTS/TVOC could have informed the public of the situation before they turned-up and paid their money.Your statement that TVOC misled everyone is a little unfair I feel.
From what I've read and heard, it seems that, as I said above, TVOC were given assurances that a three month extension would be given to the permit to fly, even right up to Waddington.
They flew there with a day remaining on the permit, and I can only think that they were fairly certain that the paperwork would all be sorted that evening, allowing them to fly the next day. Alas we know something wasn't right and they didn't get the permit.
As to who's to blame, whether that be TVOC, Marshalls or both, one things is for sure, and that's TVOC had to rightly or wrongly suck it up and take a hefty kick in the knackers for it.

Given that a few days later, and at the last minute, the extension to the permit was granted, they got the Vulcan down to Yeovilton pronto, and in pretty bad conditions to make the following days show.
I really don't think they intentionally went out to mislead the public at Waddington, I think they went there in good faith that the permit would be given and they'd be able to display.
Also when you consider some of the lengths they've gone to to get to displays in 2009 (Dunsfold is one good example) then I only feel they've tried their best to display to the public whenever possible.

Finally, I'd just like to say that I'm no TVOC fanboy, but sometimes I feel they get a lot of flack when perhaps it's not all entirely their own fault.

[flipflopman RB199]

Hurn,

Whilst I admire your loyalty and desire to keep an open mind on the subject, having spent much time 'behind the scenes' and in regular contact with those directly involved with the situations you allude to, obviously I have a much different viewpoint from yourself.

I certainly cannot tell you exactly why the work was not done, and am at a loss to explain that myself, but I certainly can tell you that it was not due to any manpower issues, any access issues or anything else. I can also state this based upon first hand knowledge, and not upon information released in TVOC press statements. I also know that throughout the year, the need to sort out a trip to 603 to carry out the work was mentioned several times and put off several times, however, you're quite correct, I cannot tell you exactly why the work was not done.

Without wishing to resort to cliches, as I remember, the saying goes "Never assume, it makes an ASS out of U and ME" - Regardless of placations, the job of management is to ensure that things run correctly and smoothly, and to assume that the CAA would simply grant an extension, regardless of what they were supposedly led to believe (which in itself is laughable), without having any form of written and solid confirmation displays at best naïvety in the extreme, but in reality, displays the level of arrogance and ineptitude shown by the current management who despite having had no previous experience in aircraft operations, insist upon attempting to control all aspects of XH558's flight ops, to the point of alienating those who have spent their entire careers in that department.

Anyhow, I digress. Paradoxically, I really do not wish to become involved in a drawn out TVOC bashing argument on here. My main reason for posting, was to add a little balance to Airsound's select and biassed snippets from the interview with the CAA's Padhraic Kelleher. I have a great respect and affection for many who are currently working hard to 'do their bit' for 558, via stalls on Lincoln Christmas Market or other means, and I have no wish to disrespect these efforts, so shall draw a line here, suffice to say that I feel that TVOC's current management are not only failing to make best use of the donations, but are also perhaps discouraging others, myself included, from donating further.


Flipflopman

[andrewmcharlton]

Isn't it the simple case that no matter what assumptions, verbal assurances or promises were made by whoever, the operator is responsible for securing the PtF and making sure that any conditions are met?

Airsound's slant on it isn't what's actually written.

Mr K comes down firmly on the side of VTST

He doesn't actually say anything of the sort, he just says they agreed with the CAA verdict and behaved well.

I wish the team well in raising the funding to keep her flying in 2010.

[Tim McLelland]

I really don't think they intentionally went out to mislead the public at Waddington, I think they went there in good faith that the permit would be given and they'd be able to display

I don't think that at all - and many other people don't either. I think it's pretty clear that they knew only too well what was likely to happen. It was either a cynical attempt to pressure the CAA, or an equally cynical attempt to persuade people to pay-up and attend a show in order to see an aircraft fly that clearly wasn't going to fly at all.

The most generous explanation that anyone could seriously offer is that they simply hoped that the situation would be resolved - hardly a professional approach, is it? Either way it was a very shabby episode which did VTTS/TVOC no favours at all.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Please avoid knocking! IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE REASONS it is not at all fair play to assume one way the other who did or did not do what - YOU thought they should have done.

We have been down this route before and some have had egg on their faces. AFTER Waddington the aircraft flew many displays and was received with admiration up and down the country.

And for those who cynically say "I suppose they will be after our hard earned again" get real - it is a racing certainty unless a sponsor supports it.

[Tim McLelland]

I disagree. Everybody is entitled to have a view. More importantly, the Vulcan has been financed by donations, HLF funding and air shows, therefore almost all of us have contributed to the aircraft either directly or indirectly and if that doesn't entitle us to a view (misinformed or otherwise) then I don't know what does. If some people have not got an accurate grasp of the facts then surely it's the responsibility of TVOC/VTTS to put the matter straight - if they have any inclination to do so?

[Tempsford]

Three issues here,

1. Keeping it airborne. Some hard lessons have hopefully been learnt. All involved should have a better understanding as to how to keep this aircraft in the air for some years to come.
2. Fund raising. PPP is right, let's get real. If the public want to see this very expensive aircraft, then they will have to pay for it. It is even more unliklely in the current economic climate that new, major sponsors will be forthcoming.
3. Bookings. As long as the aircraft has a high degree of reliability. (We have to be talking at least 95% + here) the UK bookings will continue for a few more years yet. Of that I am reasonably sure.

Well done to the hardcore who improved the reliability after the already discussed setbacks to enthrall the masses this summer. You have done an excellent job.

The Vulcan is a show stopper, a show maker and a show breaker all in one.

Let's hope for a good year for the aircraft in 2010.

[Blacksheep]

You can get 95%+ despatch reliability (departure within 15 minutes of schedule) out of a modern, digital heavy, but the Vulcan never got anywhere near that when it was the latest and greatest. As a historical reconstruction it'd be fantastic if it achieved 90% (departure within an hour of schedule). What was the actual figure for 2009?

[Tempsford]

Blacksheep,

That was going to be my next question as well.

Based on the current utilisation, the type of flying that the aircraft is doing compared to when it was in service and the fact that we aren't talking of +15 mins on STD, but an actual apperance at a booked display what is the reliabilty target?

It would also be interesting to see how many flying displays the Vulcan was booked to do this year and how many it actually did. I am sure the figures are somewhere, but I bet someone looking at this thread has the info to hand.

[bubblesuk]

Last season XH558 made 62 appearences give or take and missed 4.

[hurn]

Flipflopman, thanks for your input.

Tim, of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on any cynical TVOC motives regarding Waddo and the PtF.

Tempsford and Blacksheep, have a look at the link for a list of the displays and flypasts that 558 did in 2009.

Save XH558 - Avro Vulcan Bomber - Flight Information/Air Shows (http://www.yourvulcanneedsyou.co.uk/flightinfo.shtml)

Not bad if you ask me.

[XH558 Press Office]

XH558's 50th Birthday Appeal has broken £150,000!

We need your help to push for the next £50,000 this side of Christmas.
www.vulcantothesky.org (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/)

Thank you.

[Blacksheep]

97% reliability? The world fleet reliability for B757s and B767s is 98.3% and 98.4% respectively, so 97% for an ancient old warbird is pretty good.

The commercial figures are supported by detailed reliability engineering data though and every flight is meticulously logged, none of this "62 give or take" stuff. Exactly how many formal bookings were there and how many no-shows - other than unavoidable due to weather?

[DHfan]

I make it 94% but I think it's still impressive for an almost 50 year old aeroplane. If that includes the weather problems, it's even better.

[hurn]

The commercial figures are supported by detailed reliability engineering data though and every flight is meticulously logged, none of this "62 give or take" stuff. Exactly how many formal bookings were there and how many no-shows - other than unavoidable due to weather?If you'd bothered to look at the link I provided a couple of posts up you'd have a pretty good idea! :ugh:

Here it is again: Save XH558 - Avro Vulcan Bomber - Flight Information/Air Shows (http://www.yourvulcanneedsyou.co.uk/flightinfo.shtml)

In the case of a no-show, it tells you why at the bottom, next to the corresponding number.

As I said, it's certainly not bad at all.

[Tempsford]

Thanks Hurn,

As I said, I was sure someone would know where to find the info. As has been said not bad Technical Reliability. All involved with Airshows will be pleased to know that they have a 90% + chance of the Vulcan Showing up. That matters a lot to all concerned.

Best not give Blacksheep a hard time though. He is getting on now and his mind isn't what it used to be!:}

[Blacksheep]

He is getting on now and his mind isn't what it used to be!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif True! How true! ;)
Finger trouble on the old electronic calculator. However my trusty old manually operated Blundell Omega says 94% but only on the data provided.

The website data is another matter. There is No Computed Data for 17 events - I guess thats the "give or take"? Of these it is apparent that several "appearances" consisted of fly-pasts from a single departure. We seem to have have 3 events on 25 July, 2 on 23 August, 2 on 5 Sept, 4 on 11 Sept, 3 on 13 Sept, 2 on 20 Sept and 4 on 27 Sept. Thats just seven departures for a total of 20 appearances. The total number of scheduled departures not cancelled for weather then becomes 48 with 5 technical cancellations .

For the 48 possible flights, of which five were cancelled for technical reasons, the depatch reliability is then 89.6% which is amazingly good. Bloody good show!

[kiwibrit]

Hmm. As an ex Vulcan SEngO I am of course fond of the aircraft. But I wonder, taking into consideration all costs incurred since 558 flew into Bruntingthorpe, how much each flying hour since then has cost.

[robin]

I note the usual annual campaign has started again - pay up or it's grounded forever.

They can't keep doing that, no matter how wonderful the Vulcan is..:=

[hurn]

The appeal has been going for about two months now, and without a major sponsor they're probably always going to need public donations.

I believe one reason for more cash needed is that some engineering work has been brought forward a year as they used up much more of the fatigue life than was expected last summer.

Anyway, no-one is forcing you to donate if you don't want to.

[robin]

The appeal has been going for about two months now, and without a major sponsor they're probably always going to need public donations.

I believe one reason for more cash needed is that some engineering work has been brought forward a year as they used up much more of the fatigue life than was expected last summer.

Anyway, no-one is forcing you to donate if you don't want to.

Very true,

I have been donating to the project for sometime but, to be honest, I'm suffering my own cash flow problems so am stopping now.

I wish the team well, having done a splendid engineering job. I'm less than impressed with the business planning, though (as my bank manager has said to me).

[Lyneham Lad]

Not my headline - it is Flight International's. This article (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/22/336324/tin-triangle-display-flying-the-vulcan.html) by Martin Withers gives a very good insight to flying this wonderful machine within the currently permitted constraints.

Another article in Flight "Can Vulcan return for 2010?" (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/18/336323/can-vulcan-return-for-2010.html) states that the aircraft is spending the winter at Lyneham. I must have been out when it arrived... :{

[bubblesuk]

Hi guys

Avro Vulcan XH558 is bored in the hangar at RAF Lyneham, and has decided to join Facebook!

She needs all the friends she can muster, so please come and search for Avro Vulcan and be her friend!

Thanks
Aggy (Bubbles's better half :))

[andrewmcharlton]

Happy New Year to all. I see a good write up in January's Flypast magazine including the good Doctor's stated intention to step down shortly...

[Tankertrashnav]

V-Force Reunion website update

Just a heads up that I have just updated the website V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) with some info on signing-in tables for the day. Next week I should be doing a further update with details of how to book for the evening function, so if you are hoping to come to that it is important to check the site out and get your bookings in as soon as I ask for them. NB we are asking for one or two more volunteers to man tables on the day (details on the site). Also please check you are getting the updated version of the site (4 Jan 10) and not the old version (17 Sep 09).

[coughing corner]

Unfortunately sounds a bit like some throat cearing going on in the large lady's dressing room, especially if the national media aren't up for it.

New Year Message and 50th Birthday Appeal Update

10th January 2010

Dear Supporters,

Firstly, I hope all of you had a good Christmas break and, on behalf of everyone at VTST, I wish you all the very best for 2010.

The message I have today is addressed to you, the “XH558 Activists”. I hope I am right in assuming that everyone who reads these newsletters is fully supportive of seeing XH558 continue to fly, and that each, in his or her own way, is committed to helping.

Your help is the past has been the reason why XH558 returned to flight, and entertained and inspired so many people over the last couple of years. Without you, and specifically your donations, this would never have happened.

Looking forward, we continue to face huge challenges. Our costs have increased, albeit hopefully temporarily, but the economy is in dire straits. I have just read a newspaper article forecasting that the impact of the recession on ordinary people really hasn’t been felt yet, and that things will get yet more painful in 2010.

In March 2009, after we reached our £1million Pledge target, I’m on record as saying: “We know that VTST needs to change, to adopt a new business model, that will ensure we don’t need to go through this all again next year, and also to have a chance of weathering poor economic conditions.”

Changes there have been: we have chopped costs wherever we can, but given what we do and how we have to do it, there is a limit to how much cost we can take out of the organisation. One example: with the business now based at Hinckley, and with XH558 at RAF Lyneham, we have saved over £10,000 per month in rental costs. We continue to focus on cost reduction, but there will always be surprises, so a large contingency element is vital.

We have increased our airshow revenues, through a combination of charging a higher average appearance fee and through a new “regional sponsorship” revenue stream. For example, XH558’s appearance at Whitehaven was sponsored by BNFL Sellafield.

We have revamped our merchandising, with the objective of substantially increasing the income from this source. A new online store will be launched on 1st February, with all profits now coming back to us. The Commercial Partnership Programme for small businesses is proving slowly successful, but corporate sponsorship in significant amounts continues to elude us due to the economic conditions, despite a very attractive offering.

But despite our best efforts, “fundraising” in all its forms remains our largest and most important revenue stream.

Since the end of the successful 2009 display season, our plan for fundraising is based on attracting large numbers of new supporters, principally from those 2.5 million who were thrilled by XH558 last summer.

Our key question to them is “Would you like to see XH558 continue to fly, so that she can entertain you and others in years to come?”. If you, as I have done, ask anyone who saw XH558 last summer this question, the answer is an emphatic “Yes!”. “Will you help by making a donation?”; “I didn’t know how to.” – is the way the conversation usually goes.

We have had no success at getting our message to this much bigger audience through the national media, even though we have tried every route we can think of, short of a national advertising campaign, which although costly, is under consideration. The problem is that we are no longer newsworthy – it’s old news, we did it, we got the Vulcan flying again!

This is where we now need you, as our loyal “XH558 Activists”, to help, principally because I believe we now have exhausted the realistic capability of our most loyal supporters to continue to fund XH558’s operation.

We need a National Campaign to keep XH558 funded, and whilst we talk to those who have been successful in setting up such a campaign, the only way we will do this is if sufficient numbers of people make a sufficiently big noise – this is where we need to have your help.

Very much our friendliest national newspaper has been the Mail on Sunday – you may recall the excellent coverage XH558 has received over the last year. But even the Mail on Sunday has admitted that there is currently no significant “hook” on which to hang a story.

This is where you come in. As a call to action, I ask everyone who is reading this message to email or write to the Mail on Sunday to ask them to take the lead in a National Campaign to keep XH558 flying, not only for this year but right the way through to Her Majesty the Queen’s – and the Vulcan’s – Diamond Jubilee in 2012.

If you can get your friends and family to email or write, the more the better! If enough people ask for a National Campaign, this must surely stand a better chance of success.

Please email:

mail on sunday

Or write to:

The Editor
The Mail on Sunday,
Turning now to XH558’s current 50th Birthday Appeal, as expected, the donations to the Appeal tailed off in the run-up to Christmas, undoubtedly due for the most part to the inevitable expense at this time of year.

The Appeal now stands at just over £175,000 - a very positive result, yet there is still a long way to go for XH558 to be secure for another season.

January is a critical month for us, because to keep on track to fly XH558 in late Spring, we need to move forward on the Winter engineering programme. Despite not quite reaching the target of £200,000 for the end of December, we have decided to authorise Marshall Aerospace to start the lead-in work package, planning and design office activities, and this will mean paying them a substantial amount of cash up-front from the money raised so far.

Just this work alone will seriously dent our cash-flow as we wrestle to make the best use of the money you have donated to us, especially since the National Campaign could require substantial funding itself.

With this in mind, we wish to start calling in the first batch of pledges now from those who can afford it this month; we will send out letters very soon to those who indicated that they could honour their pledges in February.

Any pledges redeemed now will be put to good use not only in moving the Winter engineering programme forward, but also leveraging greater exposure and hence giving XH558 a better chance of success. The Vulcan to the Sky Supporter’s Club have also indicated a budget that might be made available for direct advertising of the campaign, so when added to the pledges, this could make a very significant difference.

If in these difficult times you are able to make a further donation, not only will it help the now-started Winter engineering programme along, it will help us engage the wider public - perhaps now the only realistic way to ensure our cause is successful. You, our supporters, can really make the difference…

Over the next two weeks or so, little work will be done on the aircraft herself, but our engineering team will be busy on preparatory activities, housekeeping, paperwork audits and the regular anti-deterioration checks at both our new Hinckley site and in the hangar at RAF Lyneham.

For those of you thinking of visiting the AutoSport International show at the NEC at Birmingham from 14th – 17th January, I am delighted to let you know that Vulcan to the Sky will once again have a stand. Members of our aircrew will be in attendance during the Saturday and Sunday to talk to those who visit.

We have triumphed before in the face of huge adversity, so I would ask you once again to do all you can over the next few weeks, be it a letter or email to the Mail on Sunday, a donation or the payment of your pledge. For the sake of all that XH558 means to the British people, we simply must not fail!

With best wishes,

Robert Pleming
Vulcan To The Sky Trust


PS: For anyone redeeming a Pledge: please mark your donation clearly as an honoured pledge, with your name and postcode to avoid subsequent reminders - thank you!

[andrewmcharlton]

Standby for the next round of "if everyone just gives £x" we'll be sorted type of emails.

Some high level day dreaming going on me thinks.

[A2QFI]

Another very non-aviation site I frequent has an appeal link and mentions £600,000 to repair and rectify damage caused by flying in "Rough Weather" (sic) during the last season, among other work.

[deltapapa]

558 wasn't damaged flying in rough weather but it did comsume FI. VTST have always known a mod was required to extend 558s FI & it was scheduled to be carried out during the 10/11 winter but now needs to be brought forward to this winter..

[XH558 Press Office]

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii20/ellies14me/A3AppealPoster2b_mid.jpg

[XH558 Press Office]

It is with great pleasure we announce - HANGAR TOURS ARE NOW POSSIBLE!

On behalf of VTST, the Vulcan Engineers at RAF Lyneham have been negotiating with the Unit to allow limited public access at weekends and can announce that, by kind permission from the Station Commander, these visits will commence on Sunday 7th Feb. There will be 2 organised tours on the 7th, one at 12:00 and one at 13:30. The tour round the aircraft will last approximately 1 hour. Personnel interested in booking a place on one of the tours are asked to contact Toni Hunter by e-mail at [email protected] (javascript:top.openWin('/worldclient.dll?Session=SFVMWLB&View=Compose&New=Yes&[email protected]','Compose',800,600,'yes');) or by phone on 07957 161192.

Bookings will be taken up to Wednesday afternoon and thereafter the list will be closed. This is so that the necessary administration and documentation can be completed in time for the visit.

Due to strict security requirements, private vehicles will not be allowed onto the unit but a minibus will be provided from a free car park nearby. There are a limited number of places on each tour and places will be allocated on a strictly first come first served basis. Applicants will be contacted by e-mail confirming their booking and further information will be given which they will need prior to arrival.

It is hoped that if these tours are a success, then they will continue for the foreseeable future and as many people who wish to do so will have the opportunity to see XH558 up close and personal.

Many thanks.

[robin]

An impertinent question, but does this mean Vulcan to the Sky have not issued redundancy notices to staff today?

Or was that another scare story?

[1553]

The tours are being run by one of the groundcrew, a club committee member and myself as one of the engineering assistants if that is any help.

[andrewmcharlton]

The fat lady must now be gargling in the wings I suspect if their website appeal stats are anything to go by

[Smiler558]

Robin

An impertinent question, but does this mean Vulcan to the Sky have not issued redundancy notices to staff today?

Or was that another scare story?


Yes I did get my redundancy notice yesterday and thank you for asking:}

[peter272]

That is sad news.

Hope all goes well with you and the very hard-working team

[Winco]

Could anyone from the project comment on the rumour that David Walton has offered to buy the aircraft back?
Is it anything to do with the amount of money he is (aledgedly) owed by the project?
Winco

[XH558 Press Office]

Please give us a minute of your time to build publicity for this British Icon by contributing towards a New World Record!

Please watch:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii20/ellies14me/Vulcan-Survival-Appeal-video-thumbn.jpg
Direct Link: YouTube - Vulcan XH558 Survival Appeal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAW5zZser4)

and sign XH558's 50th Birthday Card at: Vulcan 50th Birthday Appeal Homepage (http://www.vulcantothesky.org)

Any pledge you are able to make (a promise to pay something later) will help save this unique and magnificent example of British Aviation heritage for the future.

Please would you now send on this message to all of your contacts?

Thank you.

[XH558 Press Office]

Please give us a minute of your time to build publicity for this British Icon by contributing towards a New World Record!

Please watch:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii20/ellies14me/Vulcan-Survival-Appeal-video-thumbn.jpg
Direct Link: YouTube - Vulcan XH558 Survival Appeal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAW5zZser4)

and sign XH558's 50th Birthday Card at: Vulcan 50th Birthday Appeal Homepage (http://www.vulcantothesky.org)

Any pledge you are able to make (a promise to pay something later) will help save this unique and magnificent example of British Aviation heritage for the future.

Please would you now send on this message to all of your contacts?


Thank you.


Moderators Note: Posted here for general news and interest of your readers away from the usual Vulcan XH558 thread. Many thanks.

[robin]

it would be great to do so, but these constant last minute threats/appeals are beginning to pall.

You really need to get the finances on a firm footing to avoid this continual 'begging'

I've just learnt my own finances are going to take a big hit so can't contribute this time. I guess a lot of supporters are in the same position.

I would be surprised if you didn't make the target (again), but I would caution against the law of diminishing returns or the effects of crying wolf.

I support the project but am worried about its sustainability

[hunterboy]

Can't we just send it to the US and let them operate it?
I don't wish to denigrate the efforts of all the volunteers and paid professionals of the VOC, but there comes a time when enough is enough.
The UK doesn't seem to be the place to operate complex aircraft , for EASA,sponsorship,airspace and tax reasons, etc.

[Dysonsphere]

As others have said the repitive calling for cash is getting boring. However I really wish I could offer some cash but Ho Hum. Still cant belive someone like Virgin nasn` sponsered it.

[Albert Driver]

Got the T-shirt. Learned the lesson. Can we play with another toy now, please?

[BEagle]

Last year when I was chatting to the VTSC people at an air show, they were very candid in stating that they realised that they couldn't keep calling on the public for donations......

Anyone who flew Vulcans in the fatigue-strapped late 1970s could have told the 558 operators that all those low level displays - particularly the high speed 'bombing' displays - would gobble up airframe fatigue. Fine, but knowing that this would lead to the need to bring forward a very expensive maintenance programme without having first secured the funding stream seems rather dubious management practice to me.

Having seen the value of my savings plummet every week so far this year thanks to this inept nuLabor government, to expect loyal supporters to keep stumping up the cash seems rather a lost cause to me.

Where are the 'major sponsors' we kept hearing about?

[sled dog]

Crying Wolf again.......:ugh:
If the whole project had been thought through properly at the beginning perhaps we would not be hearing the regular pleas for cash ? I applaude all the efforts from the whole team involved, but "naive" seems to cross my mind. As the old saying goes " If you have to ask how much does a Rolls Royce car cost to run, you cannot afford one ". I am willing to bet that the well known Man In The Street would prefer the sight and sound of a Lancaster rather than a Vulcan ...........
ps What did happen to Tombstone ? :p

[BEagle]

What did happen to Tombstone ?

He reneged on his promise. Or rather, he claimed to have kept his promise, but wouldn't provide the necessary supporting evidence.....:\

[rog747]

i am so sorry to hear that the UK Vulcan project is in the mire again:sad:
(and infact so many classic and historic vintage aircraft projects seem to not get enough funding from seemingly a well-heeled bunch of aviators, and public who would like to see these kites stay fit and well, such as BAC1-11, Trident, Britannia etc)

I deal with Steam Trains now (see The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust (http://www.a1steam.com)) but am ex-aviation of 30 years or so...

yes, funding is bloody hard but the steam engines and heritage railways seem to do fairly well, infact fare much better than nostalgic aviation it seems.

i will watch with interest though when the cap for concorde to fly again gets passed around (just a matter of when)

we do too have funding struggles of course... but it seems old trains seem to attract more dosh then old planes which is really quite sad...
i have, and will again support Vulcan but i see from many of the above comments here in this post that alot of people are a bit fed up with the calls for cash...
why is that?

[pr00ne]

"I am willing to bet that the well known Man In The Street would prefer the sight and sound of a Lancaster rather than a Vulcan ..........."


I suspect that he/she couldn't give a toss! Why should they?

[sled dog]

Have you doubters never heard four Merlins at once ? :cool:

[Albert Driver]

yes, funding is bloody hard but the steam engines and heritage railways seem to do fairly well, in fact fare much better than nostalgic aviation it seems.

That's probably because steam restorations are usually costed properly before they're started, there's honesty about what needs to be done and how long it will take, no-one uses hype and spin (quite the reverse) and no-one tries to make money or take large salaries out of it.

As with any charity, donors need to feel every penny is going to the cause, not to some schemer's wallet.

[Blacksheep]

Dr. Bob on the radio this morning. £200,000 by the end of the month or its curtains.

Pale blue with pink flowers, perhaps?

[peter272]

Given that they've had £135k in donations only another £55k in 3 weeks shouldn't be a problem. Unless he means another £200k

BUT

He has to stop this brinkmanship. Crying wolf all the time is not a strategy that guarantees long-term funding

[deltapapa]

The simple truth is....

It's not crying wolf - they are in serious danger of going under!!!

They have issued redunancy notices to the staff as they are legally required to do so, & it's not the first time they have had to do this.

[gsa]

yes, funding is bloody hard but the steam engines and heritage railways seem to do fairly well, infact fare much better than nostalgic aviation it seems

And with the restored product you can drag thousands of fare paying punters around for the day having dinner getting a return for your investment and paying its way.

[Winco]

I guess that my comment at post 2889 must have a ring of truth about it then?

Surely the time has come to call it a day on this money-gobbling fiasco?

Lets put it out of its misery for goodness sake eh?

Winco

[Blacksheep]

only another £55k in 3 weeks shouldn't be a problem. No, but it seems to be the only way he knows how to raise cash. Boys and wolves spring to mind.

[andrewmcharlton]

It's been going on for years and every year we (the "doubters") ask the same questions and get the same "oh but we've now changed" answer.

Every time they profess to have come up with a workable sustainable business plan and crow on about the Vulcan effect etc etc ad nauseum.

It's time it was either given to a team to run who have their thoughts, aspirations and goals founded in reality with transparency and honest or call it a bloody day.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I shouldn't have an opinion, but I am going to have one now.

Its short and to the point as far as I am concerned and that is that Pheming(sp) should get out, resign and let in a fresh ideas man with a different view, with something that is not as stale as his ideas are and hopefully will not take any pay for his efforts. Phemings approach to the matter is suspect in the extreme.

Done!

PPP

[Albert Driver]

The sky hasn't fallen in yet, Pop :ok:

[Exrigger]

deltapapa

The simple truth is....

It's not crying wolf - they are in serious danger of going under!!!

They have issued redunancy notices to the staff as they are legally required to do so, & it's not the first time they have had to do this.

You write it as if these redundancy notices are a new thing, but this is about the third/fourth time Dr P has made the statements that he will ground the aircraft and make the team redundant if we do not provide the required amount by whatever deadline and actually issued the notices the month before said deadline, so crying wolf is a good analogy for a lot of people.

You have to feel sorry for the engineers though who really do work their fingers to the bone and most for very little except their love for the aircraft and the determination to prove that British enginering is still the best in the world. Hopefull to provide the population with an iconic aircraft that should be flying and not thrown o the scrapheap with the rest of our engineering heritage, but with management like they have got it must feel like they are just wasting their time on a thankless and stressfull journey. good luck to them for theit futures anyway.

[deltapapa]

I believe I covered all your points in my other post.

Crying wolf indicates a falsehood or at best deliberately trying to mislead.


How can it be 'crying wolf' to say redundancies will be issued again - when in fact that is exactly what has happened.

They have to by law give 28 days notice, the deadline is to wind up the VTST at the end of Feb if they don't get enough money thus the notices had to be issued by 1st Feb.


and my 1st post clearly states redundancies have been issued before.........

[Exrigger]

Thanks for the english lesson Deltapapa, I know you mentioned at the end that this had happened before but your opening line implied that it was a first, as in 'they are in serious danger of going under', also the phrase cry wolf is as you correctly pointed out is aimed at those who consistantly make statements that are not truthfull so that when they finally tell the truth no-one believes them.

This fable has become corrupted in its use and is generally used in cases such as VTST's who state they will make people redundant and ground the aircraft if we do not give money, by a set time, when the money is not forthcoming by the first deadline you are correct that they then have to legally carry out the threat of handing out the redundancies which makes the core supporters to go into overdrive to save their friends and colleagues jobs and save the aircraft from being grounded.

This has in the past been a succesfull aproach to funding the aircraft so no-one has actually been made redundant post the threat and the actual issuing of those notices, and the aircraft still flew for the last two years. So when people say cry wolf, again you are technically correct that this is an incorrect analogy, but it is the closest and simplest that some people use rather than think of a more pertinent analogy, like possibly emotional blackmail, or possibly scaremongering to consider two possible alternatives.

I will now add one of these :) as I have no intention of going off topic to far and engaging in further semantics, as I was mearly trying to explain why some people use the term 'cry wolf' with regards to your post and obviously missed the point by some distance :uhoh:. Regards ER

[robin]

Crying wolf indicates a falsehood or at best deliberately trying to mislead.

How can it be 'crying wolf' to say redundancies will be issued again - when in fact that is exactly what has happened.

and my 1st post clearly states redundancies have been issued before.........


As Exrigger has mentioned there are two ways to use the phrase 'crying wolf'. The fact that threats have been made and redundancies issued, only to be cancelled - and more than once - I would categorise as crying wolf.

I am deeply saddened at this for hard-working and dedicated staff. I know only too well how it feels.

However, I would ask whether or not it is a project I would like to base my long-term future on. After the 2nd issue of a notice, I'd be looking for the exit, as management don't seem to be very caring as to its workers.

Worse, it seems to be using it as part of their PR.


They have to by law give 28 days notice, the deadline is to wind up the VTST at the end of Feb if they don't get enough money thus the notices had to be issued by 1st Feb.


And when the fund reaches the magic £200k the redundancy notices will be torn up (again) until the next time.

I hope the management are aware of the unsettling effect this must be having on the excellent staff.

All I am saying is the the team deserve better, and constant begging just doesn't cut it

[Winco]

Throughout the whole of this pathetic tale, one thing has remained constant - Dr ROBERT PLEMING. Anyone getting the message yet?

And yet again, when it gets to that time of the year when difficult questions start being asked, when he project is almost dead on its feet, those who have spent the year telling how wonderful things now are at TVOC suddenly go deep and silent and there is nobody available to answer the simplest of questions.

I haven't given for a while now and I have no intention of doing so until the good Doctor calls it a day and gets out of this project. He, I regret, is the biggest problem with TVOC and he needs to go soonest.

Would anyone from Brunters (or wherever the group is located these days) care to comment on the rumour that Dave Walton has offered to buy the aircraft back??? or am I just being silly asking such a question???!!!

[bubblesuk]

I have heard that rumour but i can't say if there is any truth in it. I have had it explaind how it would work if it were to happen but it is complicated and i can't remember enough to recount it here, suffice to say that it could work. the only way to know for sure is to ask Mr Walton himself.

[srobarts]

It is amazing that we are in the same position as last year. I posted this then:
Surely the right route forward is not to let it fold but to have a change of leadership that inspires confidence so that support comes back.
Pleming has actually achieved a lot in getting the Vulcan back in the air, when so many said it couldn't be done - that is not to say that there weren't mistakes along the way in getting it into the air again.
In all my commercial life projects like this have had a change of leadership at each phase, because quite simply new skills are needed for each phase. We have had the rebuilding of XH558 we are now on to the development of the project and maintenance of income flow.
The Vulcan is back in the air, it needs now a leader who will keep it there.
Hopefully someone who is more marketing orientated and the call for support accentuates the positives of this project and what it will deliver in the future and not the perpetual "if we don't pay it will never fly again" message.
My view is still the same. A new leader is needed and was needed a year ago.

[Winco]

As long as Pleming is being paid the sums that he is, he will never let go of it.

This project has been a total farce for a very long time. Pleming does not have the foresight to see any potential problems, hence why the project staggers from one calamity to another, with no money and the British Public being held to ransom on each occasion.

The story has worn thin Robert, and we are sick of hearing it. It's the same story we heard this time last year, and the year before et al. If you can't hack it, then get out and hand it over to some new blood who might just have a bit more idea than you have.

Why is he still there? I just find it astonishing that this guy, who is clearly failing, is still in post.

Bubbles, thanks for the info. It is sad that yours is the only voice in the wilderness to come out of Brunters. It says it all really

[andrewmcharlton]

Vulcan 50th Birthday Appeal | Homepage (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/)

This home page display says it all.

Shut the doors and go home seems the only option if those figures are believable. Terrible shame for the staff and volunteers who have excelled.

Disgrace the management has got away with such shambolic organisation, communications and appalling lack of foresight and transparency.

Makes my team, Newcastle United, look like a slick well oiled customer focused business.

[Tempsford]

When will those that have yet to grasp the nettle understand that no matter who is in charge, no matter how dedicated a workforce and team of supporters is in place, this project is not feasible in the long term.
It has been a fantastic effort and I cannot speak highly of enough of what has been done to prolong the life of this wonderful aircraft, but please, please do not beat yourselves up for what is a lost cause in the long term.
This is not a steam engine we are talking about, and quite frankly I find the analogy to steam engine operations mystifying. There is no comaprison in any way shape or form so please stop, we are talking about a complex aircraft which is a totally different ball game.
It has been a good run, many more have seen the Vulcan fly than many of us ever thought possible.
The USA don't want it as they know that they could never afford to keep it flying either. Why in the heck would they want to spend millions on an aircraft that means little to them. Remember that Fifi the B29 was grounded for quite a while for various reasons so don't think for one minute that the Vulcan will have an extended life in the USA.
Unless a very rich benefactor to fund to support the Vulcan Long term in the UK then lets just accept the inevitable, thank those concerned for a fantastic effort, which has failed and then can we all move on please.

[robin]

A harsh but realistic comment.

I still think the team will raise the necessary funding in time, but that may only be postponing the inevitable.

[Skittles]

I spent yesterday morning sat in the nav plotters seat in XM594, the Vulcan at Newark. This is slightly irrelevant but I enjoyed it.

On topic, the cost breakdown seems extraordinary to me;

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/images/chart2.jpg

£152,000 for 'admin and management?'

£204,000 for revenue generation and VTSE costs?

£202,000 for hangar and office rental?

They all seem absolutely huge to me. How on earth are they paying £202,000 yearly for hangarage for (albeit a fairly large) aircraft and some office space. The cost of revenue generation is stunning. I'd like to see that broken down.

The website says that the VTST employs 12 people full time. When you consider that staff costs excluding aircrew is £400,000, operating costs including aircrew is £458,000, and 'management' is part of a big lump of £152,000, it seems absolutely massive.

They seem to be costs for the sake of costs. Why on earth do they predict 'education' costs at £50,000? I got a damn good education in the seat of the vulcan I was in yesterday, and I payed them for the priveledge!

I always wondered why there isn't a main sponsor for the project, but it just seems like SUCH a financial black hole.

[dctyke]

On the 0700 calendar news this morning:

All of the vulcan staff have been given one months notice and the aircraft will be grounded unless £800,000 can be found. Is this a case of here we go again?

[GeeRam]

I always wondered why there isn't a main sponsor for the project, but it just seems like SUCH a financial black hole.

It's because the project is such a financial black hole that there isn't a main sponsor......

[dctyke]

The current vulcan captain (who lives in Easingwold) was on radio york. He says if they don't get £300 thou within 14 days everything will be canned.

[vernon99]

in the chart above the £152k is admin and management costs not salary, presumably the salary of the 12 comes out of the £402k slice, that is a lot for 12 people. Especially when you consider that they are using expenses to the tune of £152k a year!

I also fail to see how it costs £204k for revenue generation?

Perhaps this is why corporate funding has been slow/non existant.

[forget]

What a mess. Smoke and mirrors accountancy.

£204k out for revenue generation.
..if they don't get £300K within 14 days everything will be canned.

So if they dont spend any money to get money then all they need is £96K.

I know, that's why I'm not an accountant. :bored:

[kiwibrit]

..Anyone who flew Vulcans in the fatigue-strapped late 1970s could have told the 558 operators that all those low level displays - particularly the high speed 'bombing' displays - would gobble up airframe fatigue...

Are you sure? I am not a pilot, but was the last Vulcan SEngO for my squadron in the early 80s, and I was well aware of fatigue consumption. I had to put the odd aircraft up for air display, and I do not recall fatigue being a major issue. I don't know what the current display looks like, but I would think Martin Withers would have given sound advice as to what was sensible.

FWIW, I never thought the project could be viable, but I don't think unexpected fatigue consumption should be a problem.

[Chugalug2]

Rog747:
funding is bloody hard but the steam engines and heritage railways seem to do fairly well, infact fare much better than nostalgic aviation it seems.
As someone with a career in aviation but now involved in Railway Preservation, like yourself, I can see merit in what you say. Unlike you (Peppercorn A1 Pacific) my efforts (in Carriages and Wagons) are restricted to 25mph. Nonetheless they are Public Transport Vehicles and everything from structure to fitting out, operation and maintenance has to meet the appropriate regulations. There I think the similarity with aviation ends. Restored and Preserved Military Aircraft on the civil register have an almost impossible mountain to climb in that respect with an ever increasing cost and complexity to do so. That VTTS achieved that is an enormous tribute to all who gave so freely in terms of money, time and skill. The one item in that list that is more demanding than the others is money. I see you mentioned "fare" and indeed your costs and ours are helped in part by just that. Vulcan isn't and gives much pleasure for no such return by simply being seen in the skies to which she returned. Of course revenue from venues helps but clearly nowhere near enough. There was talk on another thread that the BBMF might come under threat from an ever more restricted Defence Budget. Hopefully if that were so some means of PFI/Sponsorship etc would keep it airborne. I would see more hope for such an arrangement than for this I'm afraid. Military Aircraft were never designed for commercially safe operation and to make them capable of such will always be very demanding and costly. As a nation we have a need to be reminded of our aviation heritage and especially of its Finest Hour. For me that would be the sound of RR Merlins, preferably 4 in extremely close formation! Give me that and I am content to see the others, including Hastings, Hercules and BAC 1-11's, all of which I flew, in museums. Reality check perhaps?

[Skittles]

@ GeeRam - That's exactly my point! Admittedly I could have phrased it better.

@ Vernon99 - Whilst I am aware that a large portion of that £152k is admin cost, I'm not exactly sure what a 'management' cost is.

Regardless I think the finances are just about as transparent as mud.

@ Chugalug2 - I had a tour around the hastings at Newark yesterday as well. Lovely plane.

[Winco]

Oh come on!!

Surely someone from TVOC or whatever is going to give us a briefing on here, or have you all just given up and called it a day?

There has been nothing on their own website since the 4th of Feb, except some pathetic birthday signing that has raised 3000 odd signatures, instead of the 558000 they were hoping for (btw does having a stupid world record like this bring in cash I wonder??)
Come on guys, spill the beans, whats going on???

I know what it is..... Pleming is doing a deal to sell the aircraft back to the government to send her back down to the Falklands again isn't he?? Thats why the good doctor and the rest of them have been too busy to keep us informed isn't it??

Or is it that once again, the people that have kept them and this project going all these years are being treated like scum (again)

Night Night 558
Winco

[JEM60]

As this sorry saga looks like possibly ending shortly, for what it's worth, here is my opinion.

The whole Vulcan project seems to have been based on a misguided belief that the only thing that was missing from the general public's life was the opportunity to see a Vulcan fly again. As a regular attendee of Airshows,, I have to say that I was sceptical about this project from the start, and have posted to that effect on several occasions from it's beginning..

There are, perhaps, some 50,000 Airshow Enthusiasts in this country, who could, if they all contributed a small amount regularly, [I'm not going to go into figures, done that before] could quite easily have kept this project going. In 2008, many of my colleagues on the Airshow Enthusiasts scene got fed up with driving hither and thither to find the aircraft didn't arrive, or couldn't, for various reasons perform. Enthusiasm for the Vulcan waned considerably, but regained some momentum in 2009,though none saw fit to contribute any more cash.

The problem now is that most of us have now seen it, drooled, taken video, photo's etc., and are now, sadly, not particularly bothered any more, as to whether or not it flies again. Apathy has set in and we are mostly of the opinion, amongst ourselves, that our fears about the project are well-founded [One didn't need a chrystal ball to sus that out!]

As regards the publics interest, well, most of them wouldn't know what a Vulcan was, even if they saw it, and couldn't care much even if they did recognise it. Problem is, we have seen it, and, like seeing a good film, you do not instantly want a repeat performance, so sorry to say, not too bothered is the general feeling.

This is only my, and a few friends opinion, and I know that it must be very hard for dedicated people involved with it, in whatever capacity, to face up to reality, and accept that it is pretty much dead in the water as a viable, long lasting project. It was lovely to see it fly again, and I, frankly, am amazed it lasted two seasons. I hope it continues, but can only be pessimistic. Regards, John [A realist]

[Groundloop]

WEM, if your philosophy in life is "seen it once, don't want to see it again" then you'll soon run out of things to see - as nearly every airshow has virtually the same stuff!

[JEM60]

Exactly right,Groundloop. Have visited many odd parts of the world to see aircraft. Done the Lightnings in South Africa, etc., Oshkosh, Wisconsin 6 times, Venezuela, Israel, Russia and so on, and you are absolutely right. Nothing new to see. Wouldn't miss a single day at a Duxford Airshow tho'
After years of being selfish and Airshow Travelling, my wife has converted me to Cruising:):):)

[bubblesuk]

When you say "converted me to cruising" do you mean the boating variety or the "hampstead heath" variety?:p

[JEM60]

Boating. Too old for the other sort.:):)

Airshow wise, things are not what they used to be. Those of us who have been around long enough seldom get excited about Fairford etc., these days,. We saw the best though, over the years.
Our ship got flown over by a piston engined Convair near St. Maarten in March. Lovely sight.

[BEagle]

Much as I've been an enthusiastic supporter of 558 over the years, I haven't been overly impressed by the management skills of VTST, TVOC, VTSC, 558 Club or whatever the hell else it's called this week.

After the Waddington fiasco (entirely avoidable as I later learned) last year and the full knowledge that the 'managers' had already realised thay going to the weary supporters with the begging bowl yet again in a recession wasn't feasible, I was astounded that the fatigue usage was allowed to increase to the extent that an expensive engineering programme would have to be brought forward to this winter. Had they secured sufficient funds or sponsorship for this, fair enough. But they haven't.....

The blizzard of appeal postcards being sent to long-time financial supporters is hardly encouraging - Pleming has been silent for too long, there's cock all about the plight of 558 in the media and the future looks decidedly ominous. Although we can but hope.

Wouldn't it be nice if that very charming Cirencester couple who won the £55million lottery jackpot last week were 558 supporters....

Presumably Pleming or his minions have bothered to find out that the chap is a sky-diving enthusiast, so at least has some aviation interest...

[Exrigger]

Wouldn't it be nice if that very charming Cirencester couple who won the £55million lottery jackpot last week were 558 supporters....


Quite agree BEagle, but has anyone wondered why:

a: a sponsor has not been forthcoming, and credit crunch, financial crisis etc as an excuse does not cut it because people are still spending millions on art, football players, aircraft etc etc.

b: all the big lottery winners over the past couple of years; why has none donated money, they cannot all be blind to the 'plight' of the Vulcan.

c: education; the HLF funding was on the back off apparently, why have large engineering/aeronautical corporations not got involved in what on the face of it could be good advertising for future engineers etc and be mutually beneficial to both sides, if a deal could be worked out.

So what is the common denominator, well IMHO it is due to those at the top who rely on those passionate club members/supporters to bail them out without any support, encouragement, direction etc and there appears to be an approach from those at the top of this is my aircraft, my project and if you want to join in and give me money it is on my terms i.e. my way or no way. Also those at the top stay out of the funding limelight and mearly leave the passionate club members/supporters leaderless and rudderless but they are automatically expected to just do all the work, as they have in the past, until they swamp/annoy all and sundry with e-mails, phone calls, etc with calls for more money, which eventually has a counter-productive effect of 'sod it, I have given enough'.

But the bottom line is despite all I have said above and what others have said, I would not write off the chances of a last minute reprieve, for about the 4th time, as they are not too far off with getting enough funds to keep those hard working engineers and start the work required, allthough I think that come the end of 2010 this approach will definately not work again. Unfortunately I think they think they have found a working funding solution, so I wont hold my breath of them changing after all the promises at the beginning of 2009.

[robin]

The lottery grant was never going to look after on-going finances. It's against their rules.

The Vulcan project was required to have a business plan to show how it was going to take it foward and become self-sustaining. It has signally failed to get close to setting up a major sponsor and it is only thanks to the generosity of the British public year after year that it has got has far as it has.

But the annual call for funds, or else, is not working as it once did. I'm convinced it will make the total again - or there will be another fiddle so it will seem as if it did. But I think this is the last time it can be done.

My own aircraft needs £15k for a recover. I can't afford it, and without it it will be grounded. But I can't go to the great British public for help.

What surprises me is that the management that has struggled over a number of years is still in place. Is there no mechanism to vote for a change.

At this stage we need proven performers to be in place.

I'm booked for Fairford and hope to see the Vulcan there

[742-xx]

Wasn't there a conspiracy about XH558 ending up in the USA, shortly after she first flew again ? Perhaps that's what will happen ?

From what you see in the news the 'Vulcan effect' certainly was evident wherever she was supposed to be showing last year. I was at Cosford and the traffic chaos was attributed to it.

I think they will get over the latest 'crisis' but something has to change. It can't go on like this. It would be a crying shame after all of the hard work put in by all concerned.

[Lucy Lastic]

Just 3 days to go and £400k to find. No update on the website since 2nd Feb. Not looking good.

Just hope someone is moving in to take the project over

[BEagle]

From the Vulcan website:

Total received as at 0800 25 Feb 2010: £876064

Sincere thanks to all our supporters for exceeding our target

See: Vulcan 50th Birthday Appeal | Results of Appeal (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/results)

Great news - and grateful thanks are due to the anonymous donor who, it has been confirmed, has donated no less than £458000 to save the project!

[Matt Jones]

I got this yesterday:

Dear Supporters,

There can now be no doubt that XH558 has a guardian angel looking after
her: I can now confirm some really good news that vastly changes the
status of our current Appeal.

Shortly, the Results Graph on our appeal site will show a massive
increase due to a fantastic confirmed donation of £458,000! The donor
has asked to remain anonymous, but I can reassure you that he is fully
aware of the significance of this contribution.

As the result, I have pleasure in confirming that the Board of Trustees
has decided that VTST now has sufficient funding in place to go forward
with the planned engineering programme, and onward to the 2010 Display
Season.

We have to temper this great news with the fact that our Public Appeal
has been waning compared with previous years, probably as a result of
the poor economic conditions and the weariness of boom and bust cycles.

Our main drive this year will be to finally put XH558 onto a firm
business footing, with many new income generation schemes: Educational
Lectures, New Merchandise, Regional Sponsorship, Competitions, and of
course, an ongoing Annual Appeal. We must acknowledge we will continue
to need public support, but gear the appeal over the whole year.

We will now focus our campaign on the 50th Birthday Appeal, which will
also be marketed through our World Record attempt for signatures on
XH558’s Birthday Card, until we launch our fresh campaign in May, aimed
at taking XH558 on into 2011.

Very soon, those who have pledged will be receiving their "redemption"
letters. Please await their arrival before making payment, so we can
accurately record details and apply Gift Aid if applicable.

Your continuing support is much appreciated by everyone who appreciates
what XH558 represents and by all those who have helped XH558 over the
years. She is adored and appreciated by people all over the world. She
is quite simply - the one and only!

Each and every one of us owes a deep debt of gratitude to every
individual who contributed, no matter how small their donation, for
keeping the dream alive.

My sincerest thanks and best wishes to you all,

Robert Pleming.
Vulcan to the Sky Trust.

But what stood out was this:


We have to temper this great news with the fact that our Public Appeal
has been waning compared with previous years, probably as a result of
the poor economic conditions and the weariness of boom and bust cycles.


So nothing to do with inept management then????

[JEM60]

Looking forward to all the same posts this time next year. Bored now.....

[spamcanner]

Great news!!! Let's just hope that they have another successful season and can source a steady revenue stream throughout the year. Many thanks have to go to the very generous anonymous donor without whom the project would very likely have folded. They may have made the end of Feb target but £300,000 in March was looking a little hopeful, especially in the current financial climate. Maybe it was one of those Barclays or RBS bonus recipients or maybe a lucky lottery winner but whoever it was, us Vulcan fans are indepted and very thankful. :O

[Surrey Towers]

Great news indeed. But for whom?

Dr Pleming certainly, he will now be able to draw his too high salary and now GO leave it to a new man. Somone who knows what he is doing and with new ideas, which will in all probability encourage many people who have thought of 'investing in the future' but would not do so while he is the head. Even big companies might be more willing if he were gone.

It is time for a change. The whole trustee team need to be reviewed and it is a must for someone to propose it. Now! And as for "inept management" - yes it is!

Jack Walker was the last BIG donor but they are not 10 a penny and this generous benefactor is God sent. Its the future in years that is the worry and if 558 is to survive it will need foresight and guile to protect it. Right now it is an impossibility.

[robin]

I wonder if TVOC can let me know his name - I've still got £15k to find for mine and that would be small change in comparison......:ok:

[Winco]

So, for yet another year, Pleming survives by the skin of his teeth, thanks to a hugely generous single donation.

You have to ask however, why someone who has just saved the project from failure would want to remain anonymous? Makes me wonder a little to be honest as to wonder if it was yet another ploy to get more money from the great British public? hmm just a thought.

I had to laugh at the statement:

Our main drive this year will be to finally put XH558 onto a firm
business footing, with many new income generation schemes

What the hell have you been doing??? Isn't that your job Robert? And what new fund-raisning ideas are we going to have this year? Not another birthday card signing is it? I mean, come on guys.

Pleming, it is time to go. Call it a day and quit. You have displayed and proved to us all that as a chief exec, you can't hack it.

Please, for the good and the future of this project QUIT NOW!

[andrewmcharlton]

What a complete cluster f&^%

Same story in calender +365. Stick the date in the diary for next year and standy by for more waffly bollocks about said sound business footing (again), more openess (again) and better communications (again).

The only real positive is the hardworking staff (journeymen managers excepted) get to keep their jobs which they well deserve.

[flipflopman RB199]

Winco,

For once perhaps, we are in complete agreement. I don't know how many of you remember back to the days immediately prior to Roll Out, when Felicity Irwin was in charge of all things fundraising related. Felicity, to her mind, had done her best and exhausted all avenues of funding for 558, so it was asked that she stepped down. She did indeed fall on her sword and allowed others to pick up that baton.

Pick up that baton they did indeed, and during that next period(2007-2009), a fresh wave of publicity and fundraising was organised for 558, but with a continued series of PR gaffes from the "management" and nobody willing to hold theirselves accountable. Am I alone in thinking that perhaps it's time that other members of TVOC realised and appreciated that they are perhaps not the best people for the job, and stood down to allow others to have a go?

Standing by for incoming


Flipflopman

[VULCANCHASER]

No INCOMING from me Ron, time for change indeed it is!


Surely some of the many innefective members of the upper management should do the decent thing and offer their resignations

[andrewmcharlton]

Flipflopman:

Hammer Nail Head

What he said....

[PPRuNe Pop]

FWIW, it seems to me that this donor has effectively closed the door that some would have left by! Now they can rejoice and live in a false sense of security state, and start feeling comfortable with their lot and accountable to no-one. That is the problem.

They do NEED a new ideas man who will take only a small fee and they need new members on the board to re-invigorate the project so that by the end of the season they are cash safe. Going from one year to another is no longer an option. It must be tackled now. It, seemingly, is not the case.

The management has to change or it will all go stale. Most charities find that an all change policy is necessary at some point. TVOC are brazenly going along without direction and not knowing from where the next large tranche of cash is coming from.

Dr Pleming has to address this problem immediately - then go.

[Muzzey]

Bets open for XH558's 2010 first appearance: Port Stanley Airshow?

Just kidding chaps;)

Great news and a huge cheer to the mystery donor - let us hope for better times ahead and a successful future for this british icon, I can still remember the ground shaking at Greenham Common airshow in 1976 as the Vulcan pointed skywards off the runway and also watching circuits being flown at Waddington around 1979 - stood by the main road near the holding point at the end of the runway in the warm exhaust from four olympus engines awaiting their turn to fly, still remember it so well.......... (Yes I'm getting old!)

[Lister Noble]

I must admit my financial input has been waning due to a complete lack of confidence in the project management.
Time for some of those salaries to go towards investigative business input,look at and remedy past mistakes and have a proper business plan for the future with not too much of the money raised going for high salaries and unneccesary staff.
Thank God for the volunteers.
And the mystery angel:)

[sisemen]

Perhaps future large benefactors might make it a condition of donation that the current team hand over the baton. Just a thought - in case the latest angel is reading this.

[Evanelpus]

Perhaps future large benefactors might make it a condition of donation that the current team hand over the baton. Just a thought - in case the latest angel is reading this.

Here, here!

[andrewmcharlton]

Has there been any hints of movement on the part of Dr P in line with his public statement about leaving?

I see the postcrad world record attempt is going to fall just short of getting 558,00 signatures, only about 550,000 short I see.

[dakkg651]

I see the latest news on the website is that a July return to flight is looking doubtful.

Not going to be much of a display season is it?

Never mind. At least Pleming is still keeping us up to date with what is happening to all our money.

Has anybody worked out the cost per hour of flying time achieved since the project started? It must almost be on a par with the Space Shuttle!

[Evanelpus]

I see the latest news on the website is that a July return to flight is looking doubtful.

If this turns out to be the case, I think everyone who stumped up their hard earned should demand it back. Some might say (not me, I might add) that this years appeal was an exercise to take money under false pretences.

[bubblesuk]

Actually what the update says is that 558's appearence at Waddington is doubtfull. The reason for this is the winter maintence and mods were started late because of the funding problems last year. The engineers are doing their upmost to get 558 ready for Waddington.

[Winco]

Well, as are well into the airshow season and Waddington Airshow is only a matter of days away, there is still no sign of XH558. Apart from the serious question of 'will we ever see her at an airshow this year?' I wonder if anyone would care to offer some excuses that might be offered by TVOC and their wonderous leader Dr Pleming??

I'll start the ball rolling with...... 'It's nothing to dop with us - it's all the fault of the CAA'

or maybe, you never know, the good Dr P might just come onto PPrune and tell us the truth for once!!

The Winco

[spekesoftly]

Your post prompted me to look at the VTTS website. In years past, the News, Flight Operations link gave details of forthcoming displays, but today it is ominously blank with only a reference to 2009.

I can only suspect that outstanding work on the Vulcan started so late this year, due to funding issues, and that there is therefore no confirmed date for when XH558 will be airworthy. However, we shouldn't be left to guess the situation, and the lack of information is disappointing.