Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)

[A2QFI]

I did the best check I could but may have been wrong. The name you metion rings a bell; I thought there was a connection between the gentleman, Newcastle FC and money made in steel. Google failure perhaps

[SFCC]

Majority or not.....I've donated to this Running Goat **** of a charity several times but will do so no longer.
Its Air Ambulance all the way for me.

Sorry!

[cordless]

To answer some of your questions regarding donations,look at the charities website VULCAN TO THE SKY TRUST :: OpenCharities (http://opencharities.org/charities/1101948) .Interesting reading, and you can see why R/P wants to keep it going at £72,000 in wages plus pension.Even the trustee's think 2010 would be the last season.
I have been a supporter for many years but sorry, not very active.I have asked and debated questions on the club forum over the years but have noticed for the last six months or so ,that there was no negative posts. Untill I posted one last night and found that it has not been put on the site. I know it was negative but in "who's who" poor coastergirl was being pulled apart by certain people.I tried to defend her and said i thought the project had come to the end and they were fighting like dogs and like vultures picking at the bones.Has any one else found there posts have never appeared.Sad but the best things come to the end.

[The Member]

Zero-1 I agree with lightning_lad .
Every year we get the threats that The Trust needs £350K plus to keep her flying.
Why does it cost so much? The Trust does not pay a Lease cost for the aircraft , I assume if it goes to an Airshow the organisers pay for the fuel plus a contribution to overheads so the major cost must be engineering, keeping the crew current and staff.
You say it is a complex a/c and there is no arguement in that statement however so is a Boeing 737 and that will fly 4000 plus hours per year in airline use and cost around £300K for its annual check which I will imagine involve far more man hours than the Vulcan check due flying around 3500 more hours in a year.

I do not want to see the Vulcan parked however the managment of The Trust should be more transparrent on where the money is going.

I for one suspect that certain companies and persons who publically put themselves up as doing it for charity are getting WELL paid for their work.

[jumpseater]

The memberhowever so is a Boeing 737 and that will fly 4000 plus hours per year in airline use and cost around £300K for its annual check

What's an 'annual' check for a Boeing 737?:hmm:




From 2008 this is a figure that is interesting
Bloggs has got one important figure on his mind: $500,000. That is the princely sum, on average, that his airline will save in labour costs alone on each Boeing 737-800 C-check that his maintenance and engineering operation now performs.

I suspect if you can do 'annual' checks for £300k you should go into business. This is probably where someone does the 'how do you become a millionaire in aviation?' joke.

[The Member]

jumpseater the arguement is not about the cost of a C check on a B737 but I am sure ATC at Lasham can enlighten you with the cost of such check in the UK , it is about the cost of keeping the Vulcan flying.
There is no doubt in a lot of peoples minds that it is a con and it could be kept flying for a lot less if there where a few less noses in the trough.:ok:

[Zero-1]

Sorry to answer like this but I aint worked out how to get a Quote box in my replies....:O:O


Zero-1 I agree with lightning_lad .
Every year we get the threats that The Trust needs £350K plus to keep her flying.

The actual costs of keeping her in the air are way above the 350k that just gets them to the end of May.. all this has to be funded with little or no income save donations from September to May, they still have their running costs and overheads.

Why does it cost so much? The Trust does not pay a Lease cost for the aircraft , I assume if it goes to an Airshow the organisers pay for the fuel plus a contribution to overheads so the major cost must be engineering, keeping the crew current and staff.

One of the biggest costs is engineering (not Management)... I could go into the figures but I would be , (as an ex-employee) be breaking my Confidentiallity Agreement I have with the Trust. The Trust runs on a very small team and I can say from my expeirence they don't pay anyone excessive wages

You say it is a complex a/c and there is no arguement in that statement however so is a Boeing 737 and that will fly 4000 plus hours per year in airline use and cost around £300K for its annual check which I will imagine involve far more man hours than the Vulcan check due flying around 3500 more hours in a year.

The airlines save by haveing stocks of comparitively cheap current spares manufactured in their thousands and large teams of engineers, turn round times are quicker for any repairs also the more units they own the unit mantainance costs are lower.
The more they fly the more money they make, whereas the Vulcan is limited by Airframe Hours and Engine Cycles, a short revenue generating Airshow Season and NO spare engines.. How oftern does a 737 have engine changes per year??


With the Vulcan you have a one off..a Dinosaur ....There are very few and dwindling spares stocks left apart from what is held by the Trust which isn't large, I know I transferred them all from a card index to a computer database.. everything required needs to be manufactured in single or small lots or by reverse engineering therebye increasing the unit costs enormously, I know I've seen the invoices, you can't expect the OEMs to do all this work for nothing, much as the majority would love to do.


Plus they are working with old technology... its replace an item by dismantling the aircraft not replacing slide-in units.

Even a minor modification is a major expensive operation,requireing new design drawings, tooling and manufacture.... and they don't come cheap...


I believe that the Vulcan is still the only ex-military complex airframe on the civil register anywhere in the world? therefore it is closely scrutenised and controlled by the CAA & Marshall Aerospace (Design Auth Holders?) and it has to be in 110% operational condition, she couldn't carry known deferred faults when I worked there and it all has to be paid for.


I do not want to see the Vulcan parked however the managment of The Trust should be more transparrent on where the money is going.

Would you expect a small engineering company (because thats what VTTST/TVOC is) to open it's books to the general public.. This is what you are demanding..... commercial confidence is the important thing here, and anyway what do you wish to find out that is not in the year end figures?
As I said earlier I've seen the invoices and it would make your eyes water if you saw them..

I for one suspect that certain companies and persons who publically put themselves up as doing it for charity are getting WELL paid for their work.

Here comes my confidentiallity agreement again:hmm::rolleyes: but I will say that it was a CAA stipulation that all members of staff had to be employed..... no volunteers were to be allowed to work on the airframe apart from unskilled work like cleaning..etc..

[Evanelpus]

I do not want to see the Vulcan parked however the managment of The Trust should be more transparrent on where the money is going.

Would you expect a small engineering company (because thats what VTTST/TVOC is) to open it's books to the general public.. This is what you are demanding..... commercial confidence is the important thing here, and anyway what do you wish to find out that is not in the year end figures?

Errr, well, yes I would.

A small engineering company doesn't write to people asking them to help keep their comapny afloat!

It's all well and good begging for money on a regular basis but those people who do donate want to be assured that their hard earned cash is being used wisely. You can't have it both ways.

[Zero-1]

A small engineering company doesn't write to people asking them to help keep their comapany afloat!

I disagree if you held shares in said engineering company this would not give you access to the day-to-day book keeping, only the year end accounts as with VTTST

This what the donors give the money for to keep the project afloat.?. ergo to keep the aircraft flying.. no donations... no VTTST, no Aircraft...


It's all well and good begging for money on a regular basis but those people who do donate want to be assured that their hard earned cash is being used wisely. You can't have it both ways

It seems a pity you only focus on this minute bit of my, I thought, extensive answer, I tried to explain the facts without breaking my CA...

I still can't see what information you wish to see that is not in the returned year-end accounts..... can you be specific?

[srobarts]

There was a discussion starting here:http://www.pprune.org/5969162-post3013.html which expressed concern about some of the information in the last accounts and the lack of explanation surrounding some items. You can see I didn't understand the salary bill or why the doctor was paying himself £72,000. Others had other concerns.
I know the accounts for the last year ending in October 2010 do not have to be in until July, but why should supporters have to wait until then? The more transparent and current the accounts the more likely supporters are to believe their money is being well directed and hence give again.
As for the threatening marketing, it just grates with me. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative please.......

[Zero-1]

There was a discussion starting here:Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged) (http://www.pprune.org/5969162-post3013.html) which expressed concern about some of the information in the last accounts and the lack of explanation surrounding some items.

I didn't see the original discussion but...

Vague concerns again…please be specific?

You can see I didn't understand the salary bill or why the doctor was paying himself £72,000. Others had other concerns.

What is the problems with the salary bill and £72k is, I would guess the going rate for a CEO of a multi-Million pound engineering company… What other concerns?

I know the accounts for the last year ending in October 2010 do not have to be in until July, but why should supporters have to wait until then? The more transparent and current the accounts the more likely supporters are to believe their money is being well directed and hence give again.

As I have already said the Trust team is very small and other things can take precedence and time… it’s a matter of priorities...the aircraft comes first...

As for the threatening marketing, it just grates with me. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative please.......

They tried the drip feed scenario last year and it didn’t work not enough money came in hence the cash shortage again this winter.... and the crys for help..

This country, I'm afraid only really responds to a panic scenario

[srobarts]

What is the problems with the salary bill and £72k is, I would guess the going rate for a CEO of a multi-Million pound engineering company… What other concerns?
The salary and wages went from £329,233 in y/e 2008 to £642,680 in y/e 2009 whilst the average number of employees of the trust went from 23 in y/e 2008 to 17 in y/e 2009 meaning that the average salary/wage nearly doubled in one year - it is not a lot to ask for an explanation.
As far as the £72,000 goes, this is a charity and not a profit making multi-million pound engineering company - the figure to my mind is way out of line for a charity of this size.

As I have already said the Trust team is very small and other things can take precedence and time… it’s a matter of priorities...the aircraft comes first...

What better time to be getting the accounts finalised than during the winter months rather than the display season when the focus should be on other things.

Zero-1 Your loyalty to the trust is a credit to you but the trust owes it to its loyal supporters to be more open with them.

[Zero-1]

I am going to have to back off on this because although I could probably hazard a guess on the some of the wage hyke, I would be getting into dangerous waters of breaching my CA and as you say this sort of explanation should come from the Trust, not an ex-employee who doesn't have all the facts...but will add one little fact.... Contractors and Consultants..;)

[Evanelpus]

srobarts makes some good points.

The fact remains that there are more than a handful of people who don't feel the Trust have been as transparent as they should be. Others hear about this and also adopt a mistrust attutude and so on and so on.

VTTS is a charity first and foremost and as such should be more transparent with their dealings than your average small engineering company and that's all I am going to say on that matter.

[Jig Peter]

Can you please arrange that pages after 160 can be accessed? Since 13th April, each time (even including using the "Go To" arrow) I try to get pp 161 and onwards, I can't get beyond p. 160.
Sorry to intrude, and thanks in advance.
JP

[DHfan]

I suspect the forum software has gone mad - or has a glitch, and pages past 160 don't actually exist.

[Evanelpus]

Can you please arrange that pages after 160 can be accessed? Since 13th April, each time (even including using the "Go To" arrow) I try to get pp 161 and onwards, I can't get beyond p. 160.
Sorry to intrude, and thanks in advance.
JP

Logic tells you they don't exist.

Yours is the last post of page 160 at 15.57hrs. There is no way 4 more pages can exist after that, even PPRuNe can't achieve this............or can they?

[jumpseater]

There is no way 4 more pages can exist after that, even PPRuNe can't achieve this............or can they?

Perhaps Pprune is just getting the paperwork set up in advance. Every days a learning day ...

[HOUSE BOAT]

I cannot access anymore, even htough the pages go up to page 164, as I write this?

[cordless]

The Vulcan to the Sky Trust
has a management team led by Dr Robert Pleming as Chief Executive, which meets on

approximately a monthly basis.


The Trust had 17 full- and part-time employees as at 31s' July 2006 plus a number of

contractors and consultants; the number of employees has remained at 17, although there are now less full-time and

more pa




rt-time employees.

Vulcan to the Sky Enterprises Ltd (VTSE) is the wholly-owned trading subsidiary of VTST, and is managed by Dr

Robert Pleming as its director. VTSE covenants its profits to VTST under the Gift Aid scheme.


R Pleming, a director of Vulcan To The Sky Enterprises Limited, which is 100% owned by Vulcan To The Sky

Trust, is also a director of RW Pleming Consulting Limited. During the year ended 31 July 2007, Vulcan to the
Sky Trust paid RW Pleming Consulting Limited an amount of £38,141 including expenses (2006: £91,760) for




consultancy services.

[Audax]

Airborne today, came through Linton (& I believe Church Fenton)

[hurn]

Yes there was a crew currency flight and display practice over RAF Church Fenton. I believe they may have done a circuit or two over Elvington as well.

[Ripline]

Airbourne today at the Abingdon Air Show - O, that Vulcan Howl sound - right up there with the Hunter Blue Note and the Merlin chat......

It left Mrs Ripline with tears running down her face and not even she knew why.:D

Ripline

[EGGP]

i received this email a couple of days ago it looks like the end may be near,


Dear Supporters and members of the public,
In light of the significant shortfall in the current funding appeal closing at the end of this month, I write to inform you that following discussions this week with the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Trust, I have been asked to convene a meeting of the Board of Trustees for Wednesday 25th May. At that meeting, the Board will review the financial standing and forecasts of the Trust and agree the options available to us.
I am delighted with the progress made in recent months towards securing a much brighter financial future for XH558 at Robin Hood Airport.
However, we are currently paying out rather more money each month than we are receiving. With the current appeal stalled, the cash reserves raised in this and previous appeals have dropped to a level which will sustain our operation for just a few more weeks. As the result, the Board are obliged by law to discuss and agree the way forward.
XH558 has now flown for three-and-a-half more years than anyone ever expected, through the sheer hard work and determination of many, the support of key companies, but above all, with the many thousands of kind individual donations from you – the members of the public.
As the custodians of XH558, the Board will reach the best decisions for her long-term future, but the need to conserve cash now casts doubts about her current flying plans, and the costs of keeping her airworthy.
We continue to put all our resources, and those of the Board, into seeking solutions. Specifically, we are searching for "White Knights" who could bridge the financial gap we see until the new revenue streams at Robin Hood commence in the autumn.
We will write again next week, detailing the conclusions of the Board meeting and the decisions made as a result.
Yours sincerely,
Robert Pleming
Chief Executive

[andrewmcharlton]

What a shock, who could have forecast this.....

[coughing corner]

From another forum and alledgedly on the Vulcans facetube page, indicating that they don't actually need the cash by month end as they have been pleading. :rolleyes:

Report from Trustees Meeting

Finances are very tight, but the project is secure until at least the end of July. The Trustees will meet again at the end of June to assess progress towards meeting the £160,000 shortfall. Thank you everyone for your support and generosity that has provided this breathing space during which we will continue to work hard on fundraising and revenues from commercial activities.


Vulcan webpage though has no confirmation of this:D, still showing Fridays totaliser of approx 50% funding still needed.

[robin]

I see they have now extended the deadline to the end of July to raise the remaining £150k.

Should be achievable but I guess they have been taken aback that the 'back us or the Vulcan get it' appeal has failed.

As I said before, it isn't really a business plan for a going concern.

[A2QFI]

I do not want to be seen as a killjoy, far from it. I have followed this thread since it started and, to be very simplistic, I think the questions are:-

1.What does it cost to manage, service, maintain, insure and fly the Vulcan?

2.What income or support in kind is received from its operation and appearance at Air Shows?

So long as 1 is greater than 2 there will be continuous requests for contributions to keep the project limping along and it cannot survive on that financial structure.

[Winco]

A2QFI

The problem is that you can never give a definate answer to '1' for all of the understandable reasons that anyone in aviation knows about.

The concern for me is that the person who keeps coming up with answer to '1' is, has, has always been and continues to be so far off the mark, that his estimates are a joke.

That person might NOT be Dr P, but as the head of this out5fit, Dr P has to carry the can.

Clearly they have finally appreciated that the annual ransom threta just 'aint going to work this time, hence why the deadline has been extended. As Robin says, there is no clear business plan and it a 'rudderless ship' in a stormy sea of recession, attrition and everything else.

Unless Dr P gives up control to someone with a proven track record, it is difficult to see how the great British public can be persuaded, for another year, to part with their (very) hard earned cash!

[andrewmcharlton]

Quite apart from the good Doctor's failure to fall on his sword the thing that grates is the whole "The People's Aircraft" statement. In fact it is now mortgaged to both Marshalls and Whalton's company from memory meaning it's been hocked off twice over.

[Winco]

andrrew,

I guess that the lack of replies and comments to this latest ranson suggests that even the most ardent suppoerter is thinking twice about it all??

[BBOWFIGHTER]

To give some life to this project it requires that Dr P leaves it to someone who has some nous and a clear idea of what is required to carry this lifeless project forward. If forward is indeed the way to go.

The project is approaching limbo at a rate not disimilar to 558's rate one turns. DR P needs to give this farce up and take a huge cut in salary. He himself has taken £0000's from it.

As Andrew quite rightly states, 558 actually belongs to others and it is worrying that included in that requirement of £150k is probably 3 months of salary to Dr.P which he SHOULD forego.

I will not put another penny into this project - ever.

Moreover, I think its time to bow to the inevitable and put 558 out of her misery, and everyone else's - and put her down. The memories will remain but her death unquestionable. No point in delaying it.

[BEagle]

What a miserable bunch of doom-mongerers some people are.

The funding shortfall has been temporarily alleviated by one of the sponsors bringing forward Q3 and Q4 funds to Q2 (in simple terms). This will allow greater exposure to other potential sponsors both at RobinDoncasterFinningleyHoodSheffieldMaidMarian Intergalactic Spaceport and at various displays in June and July.

Although expecting tight-wad Yorkshire folk to part wi' brass is perhaps somewhat porcovolant....

[robin]

The funding shortfall has been temporarily alleviated by one of the sponsors bringing forward Q3 and Q4 funds to Q2 (in simple terms). This will allow greater exposure to other potential sponsors

Hmm

I think we've heard something like this before.

I take it that 'one of the sponsors' is putting the same amount of cash in as agreed, just earlier in the hopes that other sponsors turn up.

Actually, it sounds just like the business that asked us for an advance on our agreed payments as it would fold unless we and others did so. Unfortunately it folded anyway because it hadn't paid other creditors we hadn't known about and they put them into bankruptcy.

I have nothing but admiration for the hard-working engineers and support team of volunteers. There was a phrase used in WWI to describe people like them 'Lions led by donkeys', so I hope that something will turn up, if only for them and XH558

[Winco]

Oh come on BEagle, even you must admit now that the whole saga is a joke? How many more ransoms are we going to get?

Pleming said that he would step down last year (or was it the year before?) and yet he is still there, making more gross errors of judgement and prolonging the agony. What is the matter with the man?

As I said, I suspect that the lack of support for the project following this latest ransom probably speaks volumes, and I suspect that the end is fairly close.

I just hope that Dr P is taken to task over mis management and everything else.

Winco

[andrewmcharlton]

Given that since the original pass the hat ransoms the world's economy has collapsed, there are no major corporate sponsors, fuel and insurance is up, oh they don't own the airframe and haven't built the educational legacy stuff the HLF grant was predicated on and they are essentially insolvent, is it time to put it out to grass and move on?

The much lauded "Vulcan Effect" at events hasn't produced the revenue, they can't balance the books and at the end of it either Marshall's or Whalton will end up with a claim on the airframe surely means there is no respectable and dignified end possible.

The communications of the team at HQ improved slightly but has so many inconsistencies it's scary. I mean what is the planned flight life, assuming they had the loot? It was 10 years at the start then I seems that Dr P suggests its 5 years? Pretty fundamental to a sponsor I would suggest and given that this year their clear and sustainable strategy involved more micro donations than corporates and that hasn't worked, what's the next plan?

[Steve Bond]

I hesitate to join in this never-ending debate, but I think it is worth pointing out a negative aspect of the so-called "Vulcan effect" at air shows. This is encouraging organisers to allocate such a large percentage of their budget to getting the Vulcan, that other acts are struggling to get bookings. In particular, there has been a recent comment to this effect from the operators of the glorious Sea Vixen, which is not appearing at its "home show" at Bournemouth this year for that very reason.

[forget]

Steve, I'm pleased you've raised the point. Anyone on the show circuit affected by this?

[hurn]

Just to point out that the operators of the Sea Vixen have stated that it IS booked for it's home town show in Bournemouth. Sadly the only booking so far though.

Yeovilton, which is of course another important show for the Sea Vixen seems to be where funding is an issue with the Vulcan already booked to appear.

Not going to get into discussion on which aircraft deserves what as they're both magnificent beasts, but maybe Duxford, as a Vulcan free zone should step up and book the Vixen?

Anyway that's me done, I'll leave you to get back to your Pleming bashing lads. :}

[Winco]

I can only assume that, with the total lack of comment from even the hardline supporters of this project, there is now a general feeling of defeat and gloom amongst even them.

Would anyone, with even a modicum of knowledge about the project, care to enlighten us as to what the current state of play is please? Will we see her fly at this years airshows? Will we ever see her fly again I wonder?

Then of course, we could get Dr P to come on hear and announce that he has at last quit, and that someone with even a little bit of an aviation background and experience has taken contol and everything is back on track - yippeee

Then again of course, I've just woken up and realised that will never happen, will it?

Even

[hurn]

Winco, the 'deadline' came without all the £350,000 being found, however as what had already been donated was hard cash rather than pledges, it seems it's given them a cushion of another month or so.

I believe they've got enough money to get to the end of July so bookings up to then are (I presume) assured. They've already done Abingdon and Southend airshows with a static appearance and departure at the Bruntingthorpe Cold War Jets day with more to come next weekend.

As it stands the total raised is £210,230 so still some way to go, but it does seem to be creeping up. With regards to Dr P, he's probably realised there aren't too many jobs out there so I doubt he'll be leaving anytime soon, unless of course it all goes belly up in the next couple of months that is.

As I always say, catch seeing it while you still can! :ok:

[Winco]

and the responce from the Vulcan fraternity was.........................................
..............................................
..............................................
zilch! diddly, nothing!!

[BEagle]

Probably because no-one is prepared to rise to your bait and obvious schadenfreude.

[hurn]

and the responce from the Vulcan fraternity was.........................................
..............................................
..............................................
zilch! diddly, nothing!! So my information wasn't good enough for you then or you just decided to ignore it as I'm not one of the 'Vulcan fraternity'?

Fair enough, I'll not bother in future. It's just the same couple of people whining all the time here anyway. :ugh:

[simplethings]

Interesting discussion on the VTS forum regarding a possible birdstrike on take-off last Friday. Looks like there's no indication of such, fortunately, but a post on page 3, by someone calling himself 'Sad Sam' ('Proud and honoured to be the last Vulcan rigger'?! WTF!) explaining engine surges. God help them if that's the level of engineering staff. One can only hope that their 'proud and honoured to be the last Vulcan sootie' chap is more knowledgable!!! Methinks 'Sad Sam' should stick to 'riggering', maybe he knows more about that.........

[Zero-1]

Interesting discussion on the VTS forum regarding a possible birdstrike on take-off last Friday. Looks like there's no indication of such, fortunately, but a post on page 3, by someone calling himself 'Sad Sam' ('Proud and honoured to be the last Vulcan rigger'?! WTF!) explaining engine surges. God help them if that's the level of engineering staff. One can only hope that their 'proud and honoured to be the last Vulcan sootie' chap is more knowledgable!!!


Sam was explaining the term “Engine Surge” because a previous poster had used the term in an “Anorak’s” untrained explanation of an engine problem that had been encountered some years earlier at the airfield…So come on, what was wrong with his explanation then??

So that we may learn from a master, give us the benefit of your vast expirence.:rolleyes:..I personally really would like to know??

[Zero-1]

Quite apart from the good Doctor's failure to fall on his sword the thing that grates is the whole "The People's Aircraft" statement. In fact it is now mortgaged to both Marshalls and Whalton's company from memory meaning it's been hocked off twice over.

Andrew.... you've forgotton the third and largest one.. the HLF...to whome the aircraft, actually is mortgaged legally and always has been.... plus it's Walton's not Whalton's.:=

[Those that can do...]

I have read this thread with interest, amusement and dismay.

Why is it the British way to knock anyone with any vision?

Dr P has HAD the vision to restore this particular aircraft, it could have been something else..............

It is a CHARITY, as such it is reliant as is Oxfam, RSPCA, Help for Hero's etc on the public handing over their cash to support them.

How many of you are aware that only £190k from RIAT was actually handed out to benefactors?

[ZH875]

Dr P has HAD the vision to restore this particular aircraft, it could have been something else..............


The only vision Pleming has is MONEY, I doubt if there is anywhere else that will employ him at the salary he takes, for apparently doing so very little in return.

Treat XH558 as military and post Pleming to another unit, whilst it still has a chance.

[simplethings]

Zero.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain on here about what a surge is or how it occurs. It's been done to death on numerous occasions. If you're that interested, try a search. Far more learned people than I have written it up.

As for my expirence (sic); you don't know me from Adam, and I certainly wouldn't profess to being a 'master', just a humble B1, but any schoolboy will tell you that low pressure cannot 'flow' to a high pressure area.

It's nice to see somebody wishing to expand their knowledge, but don't come here, rolling you eyes at someone you don't know. Save that for when you KNOW someone's spouting bolleux.

Alternatively, stick to what you know. Maybe VTS management and 'engineers' should do the same!

[Fluffy Bunny]

So rather than actually try to explain to someone what you would say in that very circumstance you spout said Bolleaux trying to wriggle out....
Typical "not my job guv" attitude.

Or is it that you can't explain because you don't know either.

Also isn't it very apt that you allow yourself to badmouth others but can't take any yourself and instead resort to mild threats and a "holier than thou" attitude..... :ok:

How about you read what's on the bottom of the forum here and apply the cap that fits.....

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[simplethings]

Was looking for the 'rolling on the floor lmfao' icon, but couldn't find it! This will have to do.........:O

[Zero-1]

Simplethings......


Zero.
I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain on here about what a surge is or how it occurs. It's been done to death on numerous occasions. If you're that interested, try a search. Far more learned people than I have written it up.


Why not? You started the brickbat throwing or is it a case of, as FP said “do you really know if what you said was true?.. “

however I have taken your advice and have found this….

Quote….a surge is the complete breakdown of pressurized flow through successive compressor stages resulting a flow reversal of the air in the compressor.

Which to my untrained perception is almost exactly what Sam was saying, that there is a reversal of airflow to that which is normal… ie through the LP compressors towards the HP compressors… but you said that Low Pressure to High Pressure flow can not be achieved, which seems to me that you are saying that any gas turbine can not possibly work… or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

As for my expirence (sic); you don't know me from Adam, and I certainly wouldn't profess to being a 'master', just a humble B1, but any schoolboy will tell you that low pressure cannot 'flow' to a high pressure area.

Ok… so prove what you are advocating.. I am not asking a school boy I am asking you...even a “humble B1” ,whatever that is, should be able to explain to a mere novice like myself your theories?

It's nice to see somebody wishing to expand their knowledge, but don't come here, rolling you eyes at someone you don't know. Save that for when you KNOW someone's spouting bolleux.

Thank you kind sir.. perhaps the eye rolling was a bit unfair but I still say prove it.. how do I know if you are not spouting said B******s

Alternatively, stick to what you know.

That is my point, I don’t know and I was looking to you to enlighten me as to the truth of how a surge works as you seem to know enough to criticise Sam’s concept

Maybe VTS management and 'engineers' should do the same!

Can’t comment on that because as I said I don’t know about their expertise…

[Those that can do...]

GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=VLCN)

Before you lot start again.......................

[PPRuNe Pop]

Zero-1

Now that you have showed us an example of your use of colours you can now cease please.

Please stick to the default colour, which is black and the type is Verdana and the size is 2.

Thank you.

PPP

[Zero-1]

Zero-1

Now that you have showed us an example of your use of colours you can now cease please.

Please stick to the default colour, which is black and the type is Verdana and the size is 2.

Timed at 18.55 24/June/2011.... By the way I have just checked my recalcitant post and my bit actually conforms with the above stated rules, whereas everybody else is a non-standard colour....Blue


Thank you.

PPP



PPP is that better,above, the blues came from original post the blacks are now mine?

very sorry but couldn't figure out how to break up the original to answer questions posed and still make sense... again sorry....

but I think I have now found an alternative method?

Scuse me though... why is everything defaulting to blue then?.... just wondered?
Also I didn't change the type it just came out like that??

[simplethings]

Zero

Ok you win! Your quote is just about there. However you're confusing the compressors with the compressed gas. As your quote says, surging is the complete breakdown of flow and compression, caused, generally, by the compressor blades losing 'lift' and stalling. This can happen for any number of reasons, which, as before, you can search for. This 'stagnation' in flow results in the, relatively, HIGH PRESSURE gas, downstream of the area of stall reversing flow into the LOWER PRESSURE area, forward. This is generally quite a violent action, causing the engine to pop, bang and fart, sometimes with disastrous results. The crew will hear and feel this, along with yawing, especially in a twin, due to the loss of thrust, but they'll also get indications on their instruments, such as a rise in TGT, RPM changes and, if used, EPR changes.

The problem with 'Sad Sams' explanation is that he obviously doesn't know how the engine works! Those who know how a gas turbine works could see the error immediately. The gas is constantly being pressurized through the compressor so that, at any given point, the pressure is s set value, ish (again, lots of variables. Google 'Gas Turbine Theory'

So, completely the the wrong end of the stick! As I said, anybody with a basic grasp of schoolboy physics would be able to tell you that a low pressure gas CANNOT flow into a high pressure one.

There now....satisfied

[Vulcan Rigger]

As it happens I do have a pretty good idea how the engine works, I simply made a mistake for which I apologise.

Thank you for pointing it out to me, I have now corrected my post.

I try and keep the information I post on the forum fairly simple as a lot of the members are not technically minded. I must admit I could not have posted anything as technically perfect as your post, nor would I want too as most of the forum members would just say "huh?"

I am, as I have said on the VTSC forum "proud and honoured to be the last Vulcan Rigger" not the last Sooty, that would be Ray.

Fifty years ago there were thousands of people in this country actively involved in building Vulcans and thousands more involved in operating them. Thirty years ago I was proud to be part of the team that serviced them and today I am proud to be the end of that line.

If you know of anyone else who is employed as a Vulcan airframe technician ("Rigger") please let me know and I will gladly change my signature to read "one of the last" or something similar.

[Zero-1]

Zero

Ok you win! Your quote is just about there. However you're confusing the compressors with the compressed gas. As your quote says, surging is the complete breakdown of flow and compression, caused, generally, by the compressor blades losing 'lift' and stalling. This can happen for any number of reasons, which, as before, you can search for. This 'stagnation' in flow results in the, relatively, HIGH PRESSURE gas, downstream of the area of stall reversing flow into the LOWER PRESSURE area, forward. This is generally quite a violent action, causing the engine to pop, bang and fart, sometimes with disastrous results. The crew will hear and feel this, along with yawing, especially in a twin, due to the loss of thrust, but they'll also get indications on their instruments, such as a rise in TGT, RPM changes and, if used, EPR changes.

The problem with 'Sad Sams' explanation is that he obviously doesn't know how the engine works! Those who know how a gas turbine works could see the error immediately. The gas is constantly being pressurized through the compressor so that, at any given point, the pressure is s set value, ish (again, lots of variables. Google 'Gas Turbine Theory'

So, completely the the wrong end of the stick! As I said, anybody with a basic grasp of schoolboy physics would be able to tell you that a low pressure gas CANNOT flow into a high pressure one.

There now....satisfied?

Satisfied?.... completely.. and in view of Sam admission of error you are indeed vindicated... many thanks..you have proved that you do appear to know what you are talking about and not spouting B******s;)

See?.... if you had reacted in this way in the first place things would not have got so heated... as I said many thanks, for a 67 year old..with no mechanical engineering qualifications, telecommunications was my field...I have, indeed learned a lot today..cheers

[Winco]

Does anyone know if the Permit has been igranted and ssued yet?

If the expected date of processing is the 29th of this month, it doesn't leave much flex for delays with the post, last minute glitches etc (as was the alleged reason for the ba££s up in 2009?)

Could someone from VTS please confirm the current 'airworthy' position/status of the airacraft please and advise if she will make it to Waddo?

Winco

[hurn]

See?.... if you had reacted in this way in the first place things would not have got so heated... Quite. Sadly this thread has little interesting debate these days and has just become a playground for attacking certain people within VttS.

I can only presume Simplethings was merely jumping on the bandwagon, although now that the victim of his wrath seems to be posting here perhaps he might not be as rude in future. :=

[Zero-1]

...Winco...Could someone from VTS please confirm the current 'airworthy' position/status of the airacraft please and advise if she will make it to Waddo?

Oh come on Winco... with your track record of slagging VTTS off, do you really think they would come on here to be a target?
Lets face it apart from Sam who only came on to defend himself, there is only me with any sort of connections with the project that posts on here and I left them in 2009, so I now know very little...

May I suggest you follow this link...

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?c ... gmark=VLCN (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=VLCN)

[Winco]

Zero,

I can see why people get irritated with you now. Where do you think I got the processing date from in the first place? Plucked it out of thin air?

My personal views on this whole fiasco are well known and, in the main, are agreed with by a great many. It is an appalling way in which to treat people, but hey, thats life. That said, it certainly does not preclude me from asking a perfectly reasonable question about where things stand on the matter of the permit to fly at the moment.

If, of course, it is all too difficult for any of the 'in the know' Vulcan people to answer, then I well understand. We certainly will not be getting a responce from anyone high up in the project, that is for sure.

I would just hate to see the many thousands of people that go to Waddington every year dissapointed by yet another VTS fiasco.

[Delta15]

I followed the link, is this the info you wanted?



Application Type Received Date Expected Date of Processing
A8-20 PERMIT RENEWAL 23/06/2011 29/06/2011

surely Mr Winco only the CAA can answer your question not vulcan to the sky people?

[Vulcan Rigger]

558 is currently serviceable in the hangar at Doncaster.

The plan is to go in on Tuesday give her another wash and brush up so that she looks her best for her adoring public.

On Wednesday we'll drag her out and do most of the flight servicing.

Thursday is a crew training day with a departure to Waddington sometime in the afternoon.

If you look at post No.3223 by "Those that can" you will find the link to the "GINFO" page (which I think you have already looked at.)

You could also look at this thread on the VTTSC forum: Vulcan To The Sky • View topic - Permit to Fly 2011/12 (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2343)

You will then know as much as anyone about the permit (and certainly as much as anyone employed by the trust.) As Taff has explained the paperwork for the permit is processed by MA, they have had the info for some time and the application is with the CAA.

Hope this is the information you were looking for.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Indeed D15 :)

As it stands the aircraft is currently airworthy and has it's current (yes, due to expire next week) A8-20 PtF.
The renewal of this is in the hands of Marshalls Aerospace and the CAA.
The VoC has produced and delivered all maintenance evidence and paperwork to the relevant authorities for audit and inspection in a timely manner. Any further problems are not of the VoC's making.

So if you've any further problems, I would suggest that you take issue with Marshalls or with the CAA direct...

[simplethings]

Fluffy

Delta is spot on ......if only you'd bothered to follow the link posted by Zero, and read it! The clue might be in the 'date received' - 23 June 2011. So, nothing to do with Marshalls at all then.

Hurn

If pointing out a glaring error by someone purporting to be an engineer is rude, then so be it. The fact that they came on here admitting the error is laudable, but it wont stop me from pointing out these or any further errors! By its very nature a debate has those that agree with something and those that disagree. In this instance, I disagreed with some information posted elsewhere and said so. Maybe not in terms that you liked, but that's your problem, not mine. Again, in this instance, my objections where 'vindicated'. As for interesting, I can only presume you know all about compressor surges, but decided to keep your own council.

Zero

I'm so glad you feel that the originator of erroneous engineering information, coming on here vidicates me and makes me 'appear' to know what I'm talking about!

Vulcan rigger

No apology necessary. As long as the information is correct now. None of us are infallible. Are there not people at Marshalls? I only ask as they have been involved in the winter servicing. Would that not require them to have the necessary tickets, too? I'm not entirely conversant with A8-20 regulations and their interpretation, so I may be wrong (I'll have a look in BCAR's when I get the chance).

[Those that can do...]

VTTS are not responsible for the PtF.

Marshall Aerospace are. They are the engineering authority.

If you are going to badmouth people please badmouth the correct people.

[Winco]

ttcd, fluffy, d15

Whilst it may well fall to Marshalls to do the A8-20 work and possibly submit the recommendation to the CAA, surely both the VoC and Marshalls know that they are cutting it fine to say the least.

I think the CAA website is currently saying something along the lines of it taking 25 working days to process a Permit. If that is the case, then there isn't much hope for Waddo.

Fluffy, you can hardly say that submitting all the relevant paperwork on the 23/6 with an expiry date of the 29/6 is in a 'timely manner' can you? I mean, come on, it's not even a week for goodness sake. This is where the management of the VOC should be sorting things out. They should know how long a permit takes to process and allow sufficient time for it to be completed. Perhaps more sensibly, rarther than have the renewal in the middle of the airshow season, why not bring it forward 6 months so these problems are sorted before the public want to see her at public events such as airshows? Seems fairly logical to me

I should have expected the VOC to have learned their lesson 2 years ago, when they got the aircraft to Waddo and then blamed the CAA for everything, when clearly it was their own fault.

Doesn't look like much has changed does it? Still, lets wait and see and keep our fingers crossed that she will make it to Waddington.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Simplethings,

I have indeed read the link.

As engineering authority for XH558, Marshalls are the organisation which has to apply to the CAA for the PtF.
The VoC present the evidence and documentation to the Eng Authority for them to audit and validate. This is then passed onto the CAA, who after making any necesary checks with the Eng Authority, issues the PtF.

Does this make things any clearer?

Wingco,

Yes the submission date was the 23rd. This was when Marshalls, NOT the VOC submitted the paperwork to the CAA.
Also note the "Expected date of processing" not expiry date which is the 29th.
This would place the PtF issue fit quite nicely before the expiry of last years (01/07/11).


The work and audit (mostly done during winter service) was completed some months ago and was ratified by Marshalls.

I do agree the date of renewal for the PtF is not the best but having a winter/spring date of renewal isn't particularly helpful either as the A/c would most likely be in winter service and thus not available for a CAA Test Pilot to take a "check ride" should there be a need. Which for this year was done at the time of the move from Lyneham to Finningley.

[Those that can do...]

That's odd, what has happened to Zero 1??

[Those that can do...]

Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.


As long as it isn't a restored Vulcan............:=:=:=:=

[freedom2006]

Oh my, isn't there a lot of jealousy on here. So come on boys and girls, stop the fighting and enjoy an aircraft that is unique, exciting and British. She won't be here for ever......

[Pujgnie]

http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/yawn.gif Can someone please change the record ?

Let's enjoy the fact that we have a serviceable and airworthy Vulcan to wow the crowds again this year. The engineers do her proud in maintaining her and preparing her for our visual delight.

[Vulcan Rigger]

Simplethings.

Yes there are licensed engineers, employed by MA, who worked on the aircraft during the major and the last three winter services. There were also a good number of un-licensed fitters involved in the same services. They would be covered by my statement that "thousands more were involved with operating the aircraft"

However, they are not here now. At this point in time I am "The last Vulcan rigger" (with apologies to the hard working guys and girls at Southend and Wellesbourne)

Perhaps in the interest of grammatical accuracy I should amend my signature to "The last full time permanently employed Vulcan rigger (on an air-worthy Vulcan)" but I think that looks a little clumsy, don't you?

[srobarts]

VTTS have just tweeted that the PTF has been renewed for another twelve months.
Twitter announcement (http://twitter.com/#!/XH558/statuses/86341498995621888)

[sooty655]

At this point in time I am "The last Vulcan rigger" (with apologies to the hard working guys and girls at Southend and Wellesbourne)


No need to apologise, Sam. No-one at Wellesbourne has any problem with your tag-line. ;)

[Those that can do...]

Glad to see PtF renewed against all the odds..............:D:D:D

[deltapapa]

They did some crew training yesterday and as many people were watching 558 in the distant over Scampton/Saxilby as were watching the Hunters.

[Tankertrashnav]

Anyone have any idea how early next year she will be flying, assuming she is "laid-up" over the winter months? Thinking about the V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) on April 28th, in the hope that one of the attendees has a five figure sum going spare to pay for a display!

[Fluffy Bunny]

She was up and about out of hibernation at the beginning of april this year with the move to Finningley, so one would assume should the winter service this year go to plan it should be about the same.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for that - looks like she might be up and about in time for the reunion then. Now all we need is someone willing to put their hand in their pocket!

Newark's almost in the Finningley circuit - shouldn't cost too much ;)

[deltapapa]

558s display on Saturday at Waddington was the best I seen this side the restoration - well done Kev!

[Feathers McGraw]

Sunday's was very good and enjoyable too, the departure for Goodwood earlier on was indicative of how many people went for the Vulcan, with a noticeable thickening of the audience. Also interesting to see the opposite effect after the return from Goodwood and the end of 558's display.

Something I had not seen before was Martin's demonstration of a 2 turn upward spiral, done with airbrakes out as otherwise the aircraft goes upstairs so rapidly it practically disappears. 558 currently is sat at Waddo and will depart for Yeovilton on Tuesday.

Leaving Waddington early would have been a bad move, some of the later displays were fascinating, the Vampire pair were immaculate and I watched a Chinook perform manoeuvres that I would have thought impossible for so large a machine.

Now to repair my slightly scorched flesh :rolleyes:

[Vulcan Rigger]

Just back from a cracking four days at Waddington.

Fantastic to meet so many people who were happy to see us (unlike my last visit)

Two good displays with my first time solo as the chief :D You can not believe how hot it is up on the flight deck when strapping in/out. :D Many thanks to Taff for trusting me with his jet.

A couple of snags which we found on the A/F were sorted out with spares from the fly away pack.

Most of the crew had gone home by Sunday evening so I went to the wind down party with a couple of the team turning up a bit later, lost count of the number of people who thought we were the stars of the show (lucky there are big doors on the tent.) Many thanks for all your kind wishes.

It was great to see Sally B flying (first time I have ever seen her in the air) and the Bronco was great on the Saturday. Really good display from BBMF (what I saw of it as I was a bit busy at the time) The Hunters are terrific and have the blue note off to a tee.

Thanks very much to everyone who made the show run so well and to all the people who worked so hard in the Vulcan Village as well as the club stand. Finally thanks to all the people who bought stuff (we needed to do a resupply run on Saturday evening) and donated to the cause.

[Vulcan Rigger]

Well another nice quite week in the life of the Vulcan.

Got home from Waddington about 15:00 having dropped the Mainwheel we replaced on Sunday off at Hinckley.

Tuesday it was off down to Yoevilton to see the jet in, but No.2 engine would not run so the flight was cancelled. Never mind we managed to kill off a few "hurry up and wait" hours with a visit to the RNHF, very impressed with the Swordfish and the Fury and great to see them both in the air this weekend.

Wednesday I did a talk for the South Hants Historical Aviation Society and then started to drive North as my presence had been requested to help out with replacing the CMFS.

Thursday I got into back into Waddington by about 08:30 we had a bit of fun replacing the CMFS in amongst the thunder storms. Typically once the thing was out the weather cleared. Finished about 21:00.

Friday back on the road again calling in at Hinckley to drop off the u/s CMFS then down to Yoevilton to see the jet in at 18:00

Saturday in for 07:00 nice gentle morning chatting to the Hunter boys and the Jordanians plus the few Navy Hawk guys who were over on the south dispersal with us. Launched the jet for her display slot and then the mad rush to get the other side of the show to see her in. Nice flypast with the Sea Vixen and then meet the public once the A/F was complete. Great to meet lots of old friends and new people in Somerset again. Fantastic show from the Navy once more.

Sunday was fairly easy, move the jet from the centre of the lazy runway back over to the South dispersal and then back home to the deep South.

[JOE-FBS]

I was in the audience at Yeoviliton on Saturday and the sight of the Vulcan and Vixen in close formation (two or three times?) was fantastic, well done and thank you all. I'll be making my second (modest) donation to the cause shortly. For those not there, someone had put it on You Tube by Saturday evening and there are now at least four videos there in response to a search on "Vulcan Vixen".

[Vulcan Rigger]

Glad you enjoyed the show, it makes the effort worth while when you know you are appreciated.

[BombayDuck]

That's something I'm going to be very happy to tell me grandkids decades from now. And then I'll tell them the girl was designed and built more than twenty years before I was born, and I'll watch their jaws hit the floor.

Thank you to EVERYONE involved with XH558, you made my day (and everyone else's!) on Saturday at RIAT. Thanks to everyone who gave their pennies to get her and keep her flying.

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z342/BombayDuckPPRuNe/v05_small.jpg

Also, it was my first time seeing both the Reds and the FT live. Awesome! :ok:

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z342/BombayDuckPPRuNe/ft_1-1.jpg

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z342/BombayDuckPPRuNe/ft_1-2.jpg

(pardon the photo quality, it's only a point-and-shoot!)

[mathers_wales_uk]

Very beautiful machine and EADS are one of the official partners this year.

The Vulcan needs to secure £50,000 by the end of the month to secure flying for next year.

It would be sad to see the lady go

[Abbey Road]

The Vulcan needs to secure £50,000 by the end of the month to secure flying for next year.

It would be sad to see the lady go

The same sob story every year.

[muttywhitedog]

The vulcan arrived at Wittering today. I also noticed members of their entourage driving around - in their BMW estate.

Maybe if they cared so much, they'd drive around in a ford ka and put the difference towards plugging their black hole.

[airpolice]

Mutty, they don't get a choice.

Would you rather that they just did without the beemer, full stop?

The car is part of a sponsorship deal, where that's the car they get.

[BEagle]

BombayDuck, I'm glad that you enjoyed the sight of '558 in the sky!

Largely attributable to funding provided by the general public and some equipment sponsors.

There should be a progress report concerning the latest position regarding funding posted on the Vucan To The Sky website in the next couple of days.

As for those who just whine, carp and snipe......:mad:

[BombayDuck]

A few more pics at the link (http://s1185.photobucket.com/albums/z342/BombayDuckPPRuNe/).

:)

[500N]

"The vulcan arrived at Wittering today. I also noticed members of their entourage driving around - in their BMW estate.

Maybe if they cared so much, they'd drive around in a ford ka and put the difference towards plugging their black hole."


Mutty

Followed by a similar size contribution from yourself ?

.

[FLCH]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/SpockVulcan.jpg

I'll raise you a Tin triangle and throw in a Nimoy.....

[Buster Hyman]

Here's hoping it lives long, and prospers...

[muttywhitedog]

Actually, I dont give a toss whether it flies or not. What bugs me is their constant cry for donations, whilst swanning around in a big expensive car. Regardless of where the car comes from, it creates the wrong impression when they are claiming to be strapped.

[thunderbird7]

And a crappy little Ford Ka would create a really good impression wouldn't it. Don't be so f*****g miserable. Maybe they should buy an old crew bus and get MT to turn up late all the time? And lets hope they sleep in the 'Q' accomodation in the mess instead of any fancy hotels or, god forbid, their own homes. At least it would be realistic and keep the miseries happy!

[Barksdale Boy]

If they do get an old crew bus, maybe they could get Big Judy to drive it. She never turned up late. Ah, happy days.

[500N]

Mutty

OK, in some ways you have a valid point and maybe if the car is part of a sponsorship deal they should highlight this on the car (maybe they do, I don't know).

But you might not GAT but others do. As the previous poster said,
stop being a misery guts.

[Winco]

500n and BEagle

It's ok for you to complain about those of us that whinge about the VOC and Pleming in particular, but the fact remains that the project needs sorting out once and for all, and Pleming needs to go (as he declared himself!)

£50,000 to guarantee flying next year? Well, I would bet my left dangly thing that come March/April/May next year, there will be yet another 'pay up or she's grounded' campaign running on their web site, as we have heard so many times before.

I too am delighted to see her fly and I was at RIAT on Sat and Sun to enjoy her, but the fact remains that Pleming has had his time at the helm and its now time for a well-needed change.

Well done to all at he weekend - a great display, thnaks

[Dak Mechanic]

I shall certainly be bunging another few quid in the pot when required, and I've not even seen her in the air this side of the resurrection..

Don't care what anyone else thinks :)

[BombayDuck]

Jeebus, I'm almost sorry I started this thread. Some of you can't let a fellow's happiness be, can you? I henceforth resolve to live off the land like an effing hermit and give all my money to charity, else I "the impression I give" to some people be that of a hypocrite.

And what of that Red Arrows pilot who drives a 911! He should be ashamed! The Reds and the RAF are low on funding! Why is he having fun! Shame on him!

Now I know why the News Of The World had seven million readers. :mad:

[t43562]

The Vulcan is wonderful but I sometimes wish that all this effort and ingenuity and so on was being put into some new aircraft.

It would probably be something that many people would pour scorn on if it was really pushing any boundaries whereas raising money to look after an old success story seems on the surface to be easier.

I imagine the real reason for not doing that is that even though the money it costs to maintain seems a lot it's chickenfeed compared to development. But then perhaps even an innovative new hang glider would at least be forward looking and hopeful.

[Tankertrashnav]

To put things into perspective, the British Library is currently raising £9m to buy a book. Fair enough, not just any old book, it once belonged to St Cuthbert in the 7th century. But the difference between money raising for a project like that and for the Vulcan is that the book will continue to exist, whether or not the British Library buys it, whereas if VTTS fail to keep 588 flying she will just become another rather sterile static exhibit, which would be a huge shame.

Still hoping that she will pay us a flying visit at the V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) at Newark next April!

(Like the idea of a crew bus. If they do get one and find a packet of c1974 sandwiches in the back, they'll be mine ;))

[Yellow Sun]

If they do get an old crew bus, maybe they could get Big Judy to drive it. She never turned up late. Ah, happy days.

As long as the driver isn't the one who rolled the bus with me in it!

YS:ouch:

[cvg2iln]

The Vulcan needs to secure £50,000 by the end of the month to secure flying for next year.

It would be sad to see the lady go


:{

No doubt about it, a quick £50K would certainly come in handy. Do please open your wallet and feel free to throw any unwanted cash in our direction.

No, it wouldn't be sad.



As for those who just whine, carp and snipe......http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif


:ugh:

Enough should be enough. But unfortunately for some, it never is.



I'll raise you a Tin triangle and throw in a Nimoy....


:ok:

[dkh51250]

Barksdale Boy, not "the" BIG Judy. How her presence driving the line bus cheered everbody up.

Not forgetting her diminutive counterpart Jenny B******n. Oh what mammaries of a misspent youth.

[Pontius Navigator]

The only real crew coach looks a bit like the pressure jerkin. Dark orange roof and dark grey sides and two rows of 5 seats back to back down the centre.

[Yellow Sun]

And lets hope they sleep in the 'Q' accomodation in the mess instead of any fancy hotels or, god forbid, their own homes. At least it would be realistic and keep the miseries happy!

C'mon Tbird7, in the interests of historical accuracy they should be accommodated in a set of dispersal caravans complete with the big bell on the outside.;)

YS

[deltapapa]

The vulcan arrived at Wittering today. I also noticed members of their entourage driving around - in their BMW estate.

Maybe if they cared so much, they'd drive around in a ford ka and put the difference towards plugging their black hole.

Believe it or not it is less expensive hiring vehicles to cover the 15,000+ miles the ground crews and aircrews are expected to drive than to pay them mileage allowance. The BMWs are leased at a favourable rate due to sponsorship as mentioned. They also need something larger enough to get 4-5 persons in and their luggage not to mention any spares and tooling they may need to carry!

[ZH875]

C'mon Tbird7, in the interests of historical accuracy they should be accommodated in a set of dispersal caravans complete with the big bell on the outside.;)

YS

And the Daddy Long Legs on the inside......

[Yellow Sun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Sun View Post
C'mon Tbird7, in the interests of historical accuracy they should be accommodated in a set of dispersal caravans complete with the big bell on the outside.

YS
And the Daddy Long Legs on the inside......

Not to mention the green Rexine cover mattress.

I wonder if someone somewhere has one of those caravans?

YS

[Vulcan Rigger]

"The vulcan arrived at Wittering today. I also noticed members of their entourage driving around - in their BMW estate.

Maybe if they cared so much, they'd drive around in a ford ka and put the difference towards plugging their black hole."

Just to put the record straight this month I have taken the brake parachute from Kemble to Bridgend (200 Lbs) a mainwheel from Waddington to Hinckley, a CMFS from Waddington to Hinckley and at various times up four people and all their luggage. I have put well over 4000 miles on the car.

Do you really think that is possible in a Ford Ka?

[robin]

Yes - perfectly possible but maybe not as comfortable as a SAAB, BMW or Audi

[Vulcan Rigger]

No, I think you'll find that the brake parachute will not physically fit in a Ford Ka, the CMFS would have been a tight squeeze as well.

[Gingie]

If i'm right, does'nt the Trust have a Ford Mondeo, a Ford Focus, a Ford Transit Van and the BMW estates?

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/Gingie28/DSCF2405.jpg

[hurn]

Well I managed to catch my first Vulcan display of the year at Yeovilton a couple of weeks ago. Lovely to see again and pleased to see the flypasts with the Vixen too. :D

Now just looking forward to seeing a couple of appearances over the water at B/mth soon, weather permitting! ;)
Wondering though whether you'll be based 'darn sarf' somewhere for that weekends shows or will you be flying a round trip from Robin Hood and back each day?

[Gingie]

For your pleasure Hurn, XH 558 departing RAF Wittering on July 23, 2011, the best birthday present ever!

http://youtu.be/j8FmX6HwasM

[Vulcan Rigger]

The Transit belongs to Treberg (company which rents the tugs to the RAF) and is long term loan. No the brake chute will not go in the van as it is jammed with tools, spares and ground equipment.

The Mondeo is Taffs personal car and has been "stickerd up" as he usually does about 20,000 miles a year on company business.

The Focus belongs to Toni Hunter, she had her car tarted up (at her own expense) after she saw Taff's and she thought it was a good idea.

The BMW's are leased to the trust at a very reasonable rate (a deal organised by "the management" you are so fond of having a go at)

By the way, where is the thread complaining that the RAF Tutor display team are driving around in a brand new Range Rover? Perhaps there is a thread about the Chinook team driving round in Lexus 4x4's? Or maybe the thread about the Black Cats BMW X5's?

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Your objection is obviously that we should be using our own cars, oops sorry Taff and Toni allready are as can be seen from your photo (incidentally why were you taking photos of the team leaving Wittering?)

[BEagle]

Well, yet another extremely successful display weekend - well done to all involved! There are some stunning photos of 558 over Windermere on the Vulcan To The Sky website - but they're in the 'members only' section, so mean-minded cheapskates will need to join to see them.

The efforts of the groundcrew and Vulcan 'village people' are simply outstanding - they must drive thousands of miles to support the displays. When Toni came to White Waltham in support of a VTST chat by Martin Withers, sales of merchandise aided by a few volunteer tin-rattlers raised over £600 - but Toni was off the very next day to another venue with her car's boot full of merchandise. Such dedication characterises the whole support team.

If I'm correct, the only cancellation this season has been due to the weather at RAF Cosford. Pretty impressive dispatch reliability for a veteran aircraft!

So would the naysayers please feel free to $od off and find some other topic to complain about....:mad: Thank you.

[Gingie]

@ Vulcan Rigger, I was'nt passing judgement on you choice of vehicle, just pointing out they were'nt all BMW's. As they are privately owned I'm pleased I cleared the plates too.

Also the ground crew are as equally as important anyother member of the team, so the departure of XH 558 video along with the backup team leaving is a nice conclusion to the 2 days of flying.

BTW, you know why the Falcons were late on Saturday don't you, there was another pot of tea on the way, the beer on the left is mine, Spitfire of course! :p

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/Gingie28/DSCF2397.jpg

[TEEEJ]

A few snaps of XH558 from 2011.

Windermere 2011

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6129/5971286861_79d90c45ca_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5971286861/)
3-VULCAN (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5971286861/)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6030/5971274387_ea03479a06_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5971274387/)
14-VULCAN (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5971274387/)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6029/5971286843_e5d494bb2a_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5971286843/)
6-VULCAN (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5971286843/)

RIAT RAF Fairford 2011

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6125/5977833030_41ba00e49f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5977833030/)
VULCAN-XH558-DSC_0176 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5977833030/)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6127/5977833038_154485f350_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5977833038/)
VULCAN-XH558-DSC_0139 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/5977833038/)

More at the following. Thanks for looking.

Vulcan XH558 - 2011 - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812808@N06/sets/72157627162040079/)

TJ

[hurn]

There are some stunning photos of 558 over Windermere on the Vulcan To The Sky website - but they're in the 'members only' section, so mean-minded cheapskates will need to join to see them.Got to take issue with this. I'm sure there's a lot of people like myself who have or do donate regularly to the Vulcan without being a 'club' member. Does that still make us mean-minded cheapskates? :=
Fwiw I'd rather donate £24 with gift aid to directly support the Vulcan than have that same money go without gift aid into the clubs coffers, but each to their own.
They're probably Damiens pics anyway, which are viewable on various other aviation websites for everybody to enjoy. :D

I notice my polite question earlier got overlooked though in all the furore about cars and who drives/owns them. :{

[johnjosh43]

Hurn

There hasn't been anything formal announced yet. She's rumoured to be doing a practice display at Bourenmouth on the Thursday + confirmed Sat & Sun so it would make sense to B&B at Hurn, but the runway is a bit short and may need a chute to land = £1,500 per pop to repack.

I'm sure Rigger will be on as soon as it's sorted. 2 displays this weekend and then a break.

CHeers

John

[Blacksheep]

...there was another pot of tea on the way... Tablecloths in the crew room? Why bless my soul, such luxury!
In our day we didn't even have tables. No wonder they're always running out of money. ;)

[hurn]

Hurn

There hasn't been anything formal announced yet. She's rumoured to be doing a practice display at Bourenmouth on the Thursday + confirmed Sat & Sun so it would make sense to B&B at Hurn, but the runway is a bit short and may need a chute to land = £1,500 per pop to repack.Hello. Haven't heard any 'rumours' myself about practice displays or otherwise, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see on that one, but it'd be nice to see the old bird back down here showing 'er knickers for the lads again. :}

Anyway, I've heard the resident chute picker-upper has been pumping iron in the gym just in case. Poor sod. :p

[stackedup]

It must be me but why does it cost so much to repack a chute ?

[andrewmcharlton]

Superb display last Saturday at Southport, well done to all the team, ace job. Does anyone know if she is at Sunderland both days this weekend?

Cheers....

[deltapapa]

Yes she is, displaying at about the same time both days, 16.20

[Vulcan Rigger]

Hurn,

Still under discussion at the moment but it looks as if we won't be coming to Bournemouth airport for various reasons, bit of a shame really as I was looking forward to working from home for a couple of weeks.

[Vulcan Rigger]

Why does it cost so much to repack a chute?

Because we are the only ex-military complex aircraft on the British civil register. Therefore we are obliged to get things like the chute (and the brakes and the tyres and everything else) overhauled by the OEM (in this case airborne systems) They are all commercial operations and are in business we get work done for great prices but we are the charity, not the OEM's.

By the way we don't pay £1500 to get the chute re-packed.

To whoever seemed to be having a pop about table cloths on the table and suggesting that was why we never have any money. In the first place that is not our crew room (we don't have one) and in the second place don't you need to get out more?

[hurn]

Hurn,

Still under discussion at the moment but it looks as if we won't be coming to Bournemouth airport for various reasons, bit of a shame really as I was looking forward to working from home for a couple of weeks.Ok thanks.
It would make sense to do whatever is logistically and economically the simplest option, so if that means flying down from Robin Hood then fair enough. :ok:

[BEagle]

Donations to 558's appeal have now passed the critical £350000 mark, meaning that the aircraft can meet all 2011 display commitments.

£351264 has been raised!!

Many thanks to all those who've dug into their pockets when times are far from easy.

[robin]

At the risk of seeming a nay-sayer, I am pleased the target was reached, but I think this might show that further appeals might not make it.

To have reached it only on the last day and only passed the latest (and by no means the final) target by 0.4% is a bit of a warning to the group.

That said, well done to you all

[hurn]

On the flip-side though Robin, it looks like they haven't had to rely on a single large donation from a philanthropist to bail them out at the last minute this time. :ok:

Certainly having an aircraft out displaying will have helped with the fundraising too.

[Groundloop]

Surprised nobody had mentioned this yet:-

Vulcan grounded ahead of Bournemouth Air Festival (From Bournemouth Echo) (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/bournemouth_air_festival/news/9198365.Vulcan_grounded_ahead_of_Bournemouth_Air_Festival/?ref=mc)

[BEagle]

Yes, u/s with a small fuel leak.

If the RAF grounded its VC10s for every fuel leak, they'd never fly!

Because the Vulcan is operated under civilian certification oversight, much more rigorous standards are applied than would be accepted for military use....

Hopefully the leak will be rectified within 2-3 weeks.

[airsound]

If you'd been signed up to the weekly newsletter, at http://www.vulcantothesky.org (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/) you'd have got this: (with pretty pics)

The Vulcan to the Sky Trust (VTST), the charity that operates XH558, the World's last flying Vulcan, regret having to announce that due to a technical problem with one of her fuel tanks, XH558 will not be able to appear at the following airshows:

Thursday 18 August - Dawlish
Saturday 20 August - Bournemouth and Shoreham
Sunday 21 August - Bournemouth, Shoreham and Fly To The Past, Oxford

Andrew Edmondson, VTST Engineering Director said:
"Unfortunately, XH558 has developed a fuel leak from one of the large fuel tanks in her fuselage. This was discovered after the aircraft was refueled ready for this week's flights. The leak is now being investigated to establish the cause and extent of the problem, and the necessary repair will need to be carried out before she will be able to fly again. We have every confidence that the problem is temporary, and we are working with Fire Proof Tanks of Portsmouth, the manufacturer of the fuel tank, with the aim of completing the repair as soon as practically possible"

With a technical team of just six, VTST operates an aircraft which is over 50 years old to exacting safety standards. We have a 'safety first' policy. This means that we will only ever fly the Vulcan if she is fully serviceable, with no room whatsoever for any compromise on this.

It is a great shame that the Vulcan has to miss these upcoming airshows, and for this we are truly sorry, because we know how very popular XH558 is with the public and that many people will be disappointed by this news. We fully share their disappointment and our sympathy is with them and with the airshow organisers."

Edmondson says the charity can pay for the repairs from its contingency budget, but that the loss of revenue from the missed airshows may have to be made-up from fundraising. "It costs around £2 million a year to fly XH558 to the world's highest safety standards and we receive no funding from Government or the RAF," he says. "The income from these shows was an important part of our revenue and it will be missed."

Martin Withers, Chief Pilot of VTST commented;
"This current problem in no way means that the future of XH558 is in doubt. The aircraft is otherwise in very good condition, with an outstanding reliability record, and we are looking forward to flying her again as soon as we can. It is very unfortunate that this problem should occur just prio r to when the aircraft is due to undertake a series of displays over a relatively short period of time."

VTST further announces that the Vulcan Village will still be present on the seafront at the Bournemouth Air Festival this coming weekend, and the Trust staff and volunteers look forward to meeting as many supporters as possible.


Q: What exactly is the technical problem?
A: A fuel leak has been seen from the No.2 Starboard fuel tank on the Vulcan. There are fourteen fuel tanks on the Vulcan, four in the fuselage and five in each wing. The leaking tank is one of the two largest on the aircraft, and is situated in the fuselage between the front of the bomb-bay and the rear of the nose wheel bay. This fuel tank has a capacity of 4250litres (950 gallons), but the leak is actually quite small, more a drip than a gush.

Q: If the leak is that small, why can't XH558 keep flying?
A: Whilst kerosene is not as flammable as petrol, the obvious danger is one of fire, and there is no question of flying when there are signs of a fuel leakage such as the one which has been observed.

Q: Why can she not fly using her other tanks?
A: No.2 tanks (Port and Starboard) are parts of the essential systems that are vital to the aircraft's safety in case of any problems. Also, because of the need to maintain the aircraft's centre of gravity within a narrow range, fuel is fed from all of the tanks at once. So isolating one No.2 tank is not a safe mode of operation.

Q: How long will it take to fix the leak?
A: First, we have to find the cause of the leak. This involves draining the tank, removing the fuel pumps and contents gauges, venting the tank for a while so that a technician can enter the tank, and then removing the rubberized tank itself. We are making arrangements for the tank to be then taken to its original manufacturer, Fire Proof Tanks of Portsmouth, for inspection, repair and test. The tank will then be returned to Robin Hood Airport, where it will be reinstalled. This whole process could take 2-3 weeks at minimum.

Q: Have there been any other technical problems recently?
A: No, XH558 remains in very good condition and is otherwise completely serviceable


Q: Is anything else likely to go wrong?
A: This is a 51 year old aircraft, so there are no guarantees. But she is rigorously inspected after every flight and at the moment she is in excellent condition. The expertise of our technical team has ensured that her 'availability' since the return to flight has been at least as impressive as most military aircraft.

Q: How will this problem affect you financially?
A: It is not expected that the repair will be very expensive. The main effect to the Trust's finances will be on the merchandise sales and donations at the events at which she appears, which we expect to decrease temporarily. We will have to replace the lost revenue fairly quickly. a gutted
airsound

[Prop Fwd]

Q: Have there been any other technical problems recently?
A: No, XH558 remains in very good condition and is otherwise completely serviceable

Errr the Chassis mounted fuel system (CMFS) snag at Waddington doesn't count then.

[Fluffy Bunny]

The CMFS issue didn't cause a display to be cancelled.
Just a delay in transit to Yeovilton.

[hurn]

Yes, the fuel leak issue is disappointing, and if anyone is going to be disappointed then it would be me this weekend. :{
However, these things happen and there's no 'spare' to call on, but luckily I went to Yeovilton and saw a display this year anyway.

That said, Bournemouth's very own mighty Sea Vixen is filling the breach at the various shows this weekend, so it's not all bad!

FLY NAVY! :ok:

[robin]

Didn't Bournemouth put up some advance sponsorship for the Vulcan to display? Do they get that back?

[Prop Fwd]

FB

Agreed but the question was

Have there been any other technical problems recently?

Not "Have there been any technical problems that have caused shows to be missed?"

I am a great fan of the Vulcan but sometimes wonder about the managments actions and economical use of the truth.

[Groundloop]

That said, Bournemouth's very own mighty Sea Vixen is filling the breach at the various shows this weekend, so it's not all bad!

Does this mean the Sea Vixen will now appear at the weekend at Bournemouth? Always seemed weird that it was only scheduled to appear on Thursday (now rained off) and Friday for its "home" airshow" and not the two main days - Saturday and Sunday.

[hurn]

That's correct Groundloop. The Sea Vixen will be displaying in place of 558 this Saturday and Sunday at B/mth.

It also displayed today and did a couple of flypasts with Jonathon Whaleys Hunter, which was nice to see. :D

[Tashengurt]

Why does it cost so much to repack a chute?


Because they're a f*ckin' mare to pack?

[hurn]

Looks like it's fixed, which is pretty good going! :D

Vulcan to the Sky Newsletter (http://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/wlnk/c/1216/r/16346/e/266#1)

[Chris Scott]

Regret to say that she didn't appear at the Dunsfold "Wings and Wheels" show today (Sunday). Don't know why, but I may have missed an announcement at the show. Hoping she'll turn up tomorrow.

Any news?

[deltapapa]

Vulcan To The Sky - XH558 diverts to Coningsby (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/242/82/XH558-diverts-to-Coningsby.html)

[robin]

..... And the latest newsletter is already asking for another cash call to cover the shortfall. The autumn campaign can't be far behind.

[sled dog]

Here we go again..........:ugh:

[Wander00]

There is no doubt that they have done a fantastic job restoring and flying the Vulcan, an impressive and important aircraft in our military aviation history. Congratulations.

However, I believe that this has been achieved at huge and disproportionate cost to the rest of the historic aircraft movement, and has also deprived audiences of the opportunity to see other historic aircraft in the air. Indeed, there has almost been an air of "bl...mail" at the way in which appeals for funds for XH558 have been made. As time marches on, the aircraft will need more money spent to keep it airworthy, which in the absence of a major commercial sponsor will result in more bleeding by the rest of the warbird community. I think the time has come to put XH558 to bed on permanent display in a museum - but I have a funny feeling no-one will want to take on the commitment.

I will now retire behind the battlements and wait for the rocks to start flying in my direction!!

[airpolice]

I think the time has come to put XH558 to bed

I agree. It has been nice at 53 to see again what I watched at 13, but enough is enough.

[sisemen]

Keep the thing flying until at least October 2013. I'm not due a visit to the UK until then and I really, really want to show my new wife what I lived and worked with for 10 years.

[BEagle]

Why don't you miserable bunch of naysayers go and find another project at which to aim your spiteful venom?

The diversion into Coningsby was as the result of fluctuating main line hydraulic pressure. The aircraft landed without drama and was then towed to a suitable location. Entirely SOP; the Vulcan hydraulic system is actually very basic. You do NOT taxy with an hydraulic failure.

The maintenance team then proved that they were true Brits. Fault diagnosed, corrected and all job cards signed off to enable the old girl to fly this weekend - alas thwarted by weather. Not an easy task, given the need to send Vulcan jacks down to Coningsby from Arthur Scargill RobinDoncasterFinngleyHoodie Intergalactic chavport....

The Vulcan team never fail to amaze with their dedication. They set an example which you moaning Minnies should admire, not despise.

Now, would you all please go and find something dangerous to play with?

[airpolice]

aim your spiteful venom.......

would you all please go and find something dangerous to play with?


Seems a bit harsh in response to

but enough is enough

this has been achieved at huge and disproportionate cost to the rest of the historic aircraft movement, and has also deprived audiences of the opportunity to see other historic aircraft in the air. Indeed, there has almost been an air of "bl...mail" at the way in which appeals for funds for XH558 have been made.


The Vulcan can't go on forever, and with no sign of the BBMF taking it on, is it not time to allow this wonderful operation to end with some dignity rather than have it financially running aground and leaving people out of pocket?

[BEagle]

The only sensitive spot I might have is over the continuous schadenfreude from the moaners who continually carp away at the efforts of others!

As for the 'BBMF taking on the Vulcan', that is complete nonsense. They have neither the aircrew nor maintenance expertise to cope with such a venture.

[Feathers McGraw]

I continue to put my monthly donation '558's way, and do so gladly.

Whatever is said, the effect of the Vulcan on spectators is very significant. On that basis I'm happy to see the project continue, I've also been very impressed with the speed and commitment of the techy types with the fuel cell and hydraulic system repairs.

But I do so wish that other deserving aircraft could be funded as well, it's just that even to manage to keep '558 going in the current economic climate is a near miracle.

[Tempsford]

Well said WanderOO.

No objects being thrown at you by me, and this is from a person whose father was a Vulcan Flight Test Observer, is third generation aviation, who has three sons and two daughters in aviation and who has lived and breathed aviation for over 55 years.

I even timed my return to the UK from Dubai to coincide with the Shoreham Airshow in the hope of seeing the Vulcan, but due to unforseen circumstances it was not to be. ( I deal with AOG aircraft nearly every day so please, no carping about I don't know how an aircaft operation works)

It is now time for people to stop letting their hearts rule their heads.

Enough is enough,

Temps

[Fluffy Bunny]

In which case sir, your point is moot.

Should we therefore should stop funding and running every warbird, cold war classic and heritage aircraft and go and play golf?

If people didn't let their hearts rule their heads would any of the wonderful old things we see at airshows be flying still? :ok:

[Winco]

BEagle
Why do you get so upset whenever someone has a difference of opinion to you and why do you end up venting your own spiteful venom on them? Pot? Kettle?

Not one single person has EVER moaned on PPrune about those working their nuts off to keep 558 flying - far from it, they have received nothing but praise and admiration from everyone on here, including me. As you rightly say, they are amazing and totally dedicated. No one despises them - far from it, so I regret to say that you are wrong on that claim.

What people are sick of and fed up with however, is the constant annual blackmailing and the never-ending threats to ground 558 unless another bucket-load of money is forthcoming. They are sick of a project that has (and might still be) been managed by a bunch of incompetant people, who are being paid a great deal of money and who constantly fail to achieve their own 'claims and standards'

Let me say it again to you, in very clear English. Myself and probably most of the 'moaning Minnies ' on here DO NOT want to see 558 grounded or put in a museum. We WANT to see her continue to fly and thrill the crowds, but we want to see someone else in charge, and that must be someone who has a modicum of business sense and knowledge. Sadly that is NOT Pleming.

[robin]

Quite

I have nothing but the greatest respect for the team. Their recent efforts were fantastic and deserving of so much more.

But the shortfall has grown again to £100k so, sadly, watch for the next cash call.

[Tempsford]

Fluffy, My point was not irrelevant (well in my opinion anyway;).)

[andrewmcharlton]

What Winco said.

Love watching her fly, amazed and inspired by the team's work. Utterly dejected at the constant cries for cash and the constant "it won't be like this next year as we have a cunning plan" lines.

They mislead (even if it is unwitting) and that's both wrong and sad.

[Vulcan Rigger]

How exactly does the Vulcan suck money away from other historic aircraft?

Before I joined the club I had not visited an airshow in over 30 years.

Since then I have donated a fair amount to 558 over the years and have also joined the Blenheim Society Home (http://www.blenheimsociety.org.uk/) and have visited a great many aviation museums and shows and no, I don't always blag my way in as I prefer to contribute to the cause. I am (probably to the amusement of many) an "aviation enthusiast".

If you book 558 for your show you will see an increase in your gate takings. If you are with an aircraft that is at the same show there will be many more people for you to impress. What you need to do is think of ways to let people know you need their help, I see very little evidence of this happening as I wander around the various shows.

I am probably in a better position than many to comment on the management of the trust and I can tell you that every one of them works incredibly hard to keep up the constant battle for funds. As has been said on other forums before when you attack the trust you attack all of us.

As you have probably seen we now need to raise £350,000 before Christmas to fund the winter service Vulcan to the Sky Newsletter (http://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/wlnk/c/1216/r/48281/e/274)

As I write this 558 is displaying at Leuchars, if you went I hope you enjoyed the show and this does not turn out to be the last appearance of a flying Vulcan. This time last year I watched the last ever display of an RAF Harrier. In order to try and save money this year we have sent the crew on an out and return (last year we spent £40,000 displaying at Leuchars, that is money that stayed in the uk economy)

Sorry for the ramble, I guess I'm just felling very happy at the moment.

[Tempsford]

Good points well made Rigger, thank you.
Temps

[sled dog]

V R, well said. But ask your boss why you still have to keep asking for money ? Peter and the Wolf springs to mind.

[Fareastdriver]

Nice show at Leuchers. Good to hear the old Olympus decibels again.

[Vulcan Rigger]

Sled Dog,

We keep asking for money because we keep on spending it.

Do you think GKN in Portsmouth fixed the tank for free? Do you suppose the haulage company moved the jacks and ground equipment as a favour?

The appeal will help out with the winter service in service 5 years was about the period between Majors so that is the life on a lot of the components. As that is how long it has been since the components were re-installed (doesn't time fly by when you are having fun) they have to come out again to be re-certified.

Company's help us out but we are the charity. Once more this money will be staying in the U.K. economy (and in our industry) it will mean that this expertise is still available if you have a classic jet which needs similar work carrying out.

Each year as our expertise increases and the authorities become more familiar with our capabilities the amount we need to raise is reduced as we can carry out more of the work "in house" and not have to bring in out side agencies.

[Winco]

VR

People keep asking why you keep pleading for money, NOT because you keep spending it but because your Boss keeps telling us that you have sufficient funds to see you through till the year x, and on every occasion, literally EVERY occasion, he is proved to be completely wrong.

Of course we don't expect kit to be repaired free or stuff moved around for nothing, but we do expect the Chf Exec of this Multi Milliion Pound Fiasco to get his sums right just once in a while!

Great display at Leuchars yesterday by the way.

[nooluv]

XH 558 flew over my house (Stockton on Tees) on the way back from Leuchars Saturday. Low level approach to EGNV.

Fantastic Sight! The teenager next door came knocking on my door!
Malc did you see the "Stealth Bomber" ?

Explained To Him the type of Aircraft & how I used to watch the original White "Stealth Bombers" Flying over my house ( Stockport) When I was a kid..
Thank You to the people keeping this Aircraft flying..

Now what about Concorde? :)

[robin]

Winco is exactly right

A few weeks ago I made the point that the 'pay up or XH558 gets it' appeal just passed the target and yet within a very short time, another appeal for £100k went out as the original appeal appeared not to have allowed for contingency. Now we have another 'please can we have another £350k' appeal for the winter service.

I repeat, the guys who keep the Vulcan going are heros (and heroines) but have not had the best of support from senior management.

What is obvious is that the management of the project have had little success in finding on-going financial support that does not require emotional blackmail. That is my criticism

[Vulcan Rigger]

Winco,

The budget is about £2m a year, it's not a secret. Experience shows that if you stand up and ask for that amount of money in January you get a good slagging on the internet (pretty much like you do if you ask for £350k) It is also a lot harder to raise £2m to ensure the project can survive for a whole year (which is what they had done just before I joined the trust) than it is to raise enough to get through the next quarter.

I am sure you know (as it has been explained many times before) that it would be illegal for the trust to continue to operate if they do not have the funds to pay the bills. The original appeal this year was for £350k by the end of May which was the operating budget for the Summer, we did not make it. However, there was enough in the bank to cover the operating cost til the end of June. The staff have been on a four week rolling notice since April as when the funds run out we will be the first to go.

I know you have a massive problem with Robert Plemming, I do not know why, perhaps you feel you could do a much better job. For what it is worth having watched him at work for the last two and a bit years I feel that he does give good value for money. I think given his BA in Nuclear Physics it is safe to say that he can do his sums. That is of course in my opinion, which I hope I am entitled to, just as you are entitled to yours.

Glad you enjoyed the display.

[Winco]

VR
It is no secret that I have a problem with Dr P.
I have met him on several occasions and he is without doubt a charming and personable man and I have nothing against him personally in any way.
The problem is though, that over the past however many years, he has made some extremely bold statements about this project which have, in the main, turned out to be complete rubbish. He has told the British public that there is sufficient money to reach point X and there hasn't been! In any other multi milliion pound organisation he would have been forced to resign, because he got it wrong, so often frankly.
I'm not questioning his ability as a Nuclear Physicist in any way, although I'm really not sure what that has to do with maintaining a 50+ year old Vulcan. Is there some relevance? But even so, that does not automatically make him the right person for this job, and as far as his ability in maths is concerned, then I'll leave that up to you and the rest of us to determine, but I don't think he has been correct too many time in the old 'adding up' side of things - do you?
The time has come (and gone yet again) for Plemng to call it a day and to get someone in from the business world to put the project on a secure finacial footing. Certainly not stumbling from one appeal to another - what sort of a way is that to run anything??
Those of us that are accused of constantly moaning (and I count myself in that) do so because we want to see this project succeed and kept going. The difference is that we have the foresight to see that unless things change at the top and we get someone 'better' in place, 558 will end up grounded forever, or far worse - she will end up living (and flying) in the USA.
As always - 100% support to all the team and those behind the scenes, just sorry I don't share that support for those in the upper management.
Regards

[airpolice]

I have no idea how well, or otherwise the project is run. I have no objection to the appeals for more cash, that's how the aircraft is funded. I don't feel blackmailed.

What I am concerned about, is that when it runs out of steam, some suppliers will get caught out.

A planned exit strategy would be a better idea. Perhaps the good doctor could explain what this is. In the event of them not getting enough money to continue, and closing the doors, where will the surplus end up?

People donating money now are entitled to know where it will be spent, if not on the Vulcan.

[JEM60]

How I wish the SOME funding could be found for B.17 'Sally B' which is a much more fitting memorial to thousands upon thousands of US Airmen who lost their lives fighting for this country. The organisation is struggling even more than the Vulcan in raising money, and I, my opinion only, is that the money would be so much better spent on that than the struggling Vulcan, which [I know it kep the peace for many years etc.,] but is not a memorial to people who gave their lives for this country. I stopped with the Vulcan, and switched to 'SallyB' as regards funding. Of course, people are free to spend as they choose, I just feel that it would be more devastating to lose this fine B17 than the Vulcan. I knwo I am not going to be popular, going for my hat and coat.

[Vulcan Rigger]

Jem,

I quite agree with you that it would be devastating to lose Sally B.

As you say you have transferred your support to Sally and you of course have every right to do that. I wonder how many others go to a show because of the Vulcan effect and then move onto support other stuff? Yes I do support Sally and have made other offers but have not heard anything back from them.

Winco,

Robert believes what he is told' if someone says we'll give you "x" he'll believe them, if that then does not happen is it his fault? His expertise, apart from Nuclear physics, is as CEO of large companies - is that not the business world background you want?

[Winco]

VR

What I want, is someone with a proven and successful track record!
If, as you suggest, Dr P has that from the other companies where he has been the CEO, then it is even more dissapointing that he can't see his own failings with this project. How long does he want to put it right?
Look, this is not a witch hunt against Pleming. It is a witch hunt against the people at the very top of this project who have demonstrated that they cannot deliver, and it's time for him and them to go. It's not about you, the crew, the techies, the support staff or whoever, it's about those at the top.
The fact that it's Dr P at the very top is unfortunate for him but it's neither here nor there frankly. It wouldn't matter who was in the seat, you, me, even Branson. The fact remains that this project staggers from one crisis to another, and has done for many years now and that is wrong!
You cannot keep blaming someone else for ever VR.

[Vulcan Rigger]

The thing is though, it does keep on staggering doesn't it?

Must be so annoying for you that time after time the public and the likes of Eddie Forester keep on coming through at the last moment with just enough cash to push us on to the next funding crisis!

Right from the start all we have heard is "they will never do it" and "they can't keep on doing that."

It's almost part of the buzz that we keep 558 going despite the difficulties and the crisis. As it says on the intake blanks "Don't let me die, I want to fly."

I don't think Robert blames anyone else, he explains why we have problems. Could you have predicted the banking crisis? Did you know that a 40 year old tank bank had a split in it, or that a 30 year old hyd pump would throw a wobbly? Do you think Branson would have known?

[Winco]

"Must be so annoying for you that time after time the public and the likes of Eddie Forester keep on coming through at the last moment with just enough cash to push us on to the next funding crisis!"

What a stupid and unnecesary thing for you to say VR, you've just lost all the respect I had for you. Why do you think it would annoy me? On the contrary, I'm deligted that it keeps getting funded even after all the threats and blackmailing that goes on, but it doesn't make it right.

I couldn't have predicted the banking crisis, nor could Branson but I think between us we might have foreseen that fuel tanks could and would leak and that hydraulic pumps might throw a wobbly. Maybe thats why BA and Virgin have plans in place for such events. Maybe it's because their chf execs have a bit on forsight perhaps?? Just a thought.

Still, if thats the way you want it then so be it - I'm not the one on a 4 week rolling notice thank God

[Vulcan Rigger]

The fuel tank we had repaired was the last 2 Stbd. The original cure date was June 1962 and it had been overhauled by St Athan in 1990.

It had then spent 17 years in a box as part of the war stock. It was fitted in 2007 as part of the Bruntingthorpe major replacing a tank which had been fitted since the 1980 St Athan major (the only tank from the 1980 major which needed to be replaced.) It was the last tank left in the war stock, if we need to replace any more they will have to be made with a huge lead time. We could spend thousands of pounds having a full set of tanks made up which would then sit on a shelf and never be used.

We have spare hyd pumps which are certified and ready to fit, the lead time on the hyd snag was not the pump it was the logistics of getting the ground equipment in place and getting some hangar space organised and audited (just because it is a former Vulcan hangar being used for aircraft maintenance does not mean it is still suitable for our needs)

So we do have a "bit of foresight" we do not have the resources that BA and Virgin have (did BA not make a huge loss a couple of years ago because they did not foresee the ash cloud?)

[LookingNorth]

I stopped donating after the Waddo permit to fly fiasco but have been impressed by how many people continue to sink their hard-earned into the project. I feel Winco has a point in that some contingency should have been made. Obviously not for specific failures, as the list is long and horrifying, but surely it would make sense to budget for skipping several displays? Running on the ragged edge all the time can't be any fun.

Incidentally on the subject of ragged edges, if a major bit of work like the fuel tank fix or hyd fix had been carried out in RAF service, wouldn't there have been a test flight afterwards?

[Fareastdriver]

if a major bit of work like the fuel tank fix or hyd fix had been carried out in RAF service, wouldn't there have been a test flight afterwards?

No. Why should they?

[Claresholm57]

The reaction of the late Stafford Coulson, who was CO of Scampton when 617 squadron reformed with Vulcans and who had loved flying them, when he heard about the concept of getting old XH 558 back in the air was to say that it was unaffordable. He knew what he was talking about.

[Sir George Cayley]

Actually the Banking Crisis was spotted in advance but the people who stood up were scoffed at. There'll be a story on the internet somewhere; one was an American economist if memory serves.

As for the Vulcan, I'm mystified as to why there are people who don't get their hands dirty. If what I hear about the money being pulled out of the Trust by the CEO is true, then they should look for someone better and cheaper.

There's probably someone on here with the acumen to run the show.

Lastly, would a plan B be to stop flying but maintain it in taxying condition?

SGC

[airpolice]

If what I hear about the money being pulled out of the Trust by the CEO is true

Go on Sir George, tell us more.

[A2QFI]

At the risk of seeming pedantic it was not unaffordable - it has been and still is flying SFAIK. It is unsustainable, or appears to be.

[srobarts]

If what I hear about the money being pulled out of the Trust by the CEO is true
Sir George are you meaning Pleming's "between £60,000 and £70,000" salary shown in the last accounts, year ended Oct 2010 and £72,000 salary in the previous financial year or is there something more sinister than this excessive salary?

There is also a jump in consultancy costs from £63,168 in year end Oct 2009 to £114,207 in the year ended Oct 2010.

Does anyone know why the Vulcan to the Sky Enterprises net liabilities have risen from £255,052 to £490,745? Seems a big jump.

One other snippet from the latest accounts is "The trustees have estimated the remaining useful economic life of the aircraft to be 2 years and 9 months and the residual value to be £2m"

As I have said before more transparency as to where the money is going is needed.

[srobarts]

This posted on the XH558 Faceprune page this afternoon.
Vulcan XH558
It is with particular sadness that I have to tell you that we are planning that next year will be the final flying season for XH558, the world’s last airworthy Vulcan. At the end of the 2013 season she will need a complex and costly wing modification, but that isn’t the only challenge. We continue to explore ways to ensure that we can continue flying for longer, but the position today is that we cannot see how spending £200,000 of supporters’ funds on a short-lived airframe upgrade could be justified. To help explain this complex decision, we have put together a briefing document that you can read here: www.tinyurl.com/558FAQ. The team is now working hard to deliver one final, fabulous Vulcan display season and tomorrow I’ll post more details on how you can help. Thank you again for your support.
http://www.tinyurl.com/558FAQ
Home | Vulcan To The Sky (http://www.vulcantothesky.org)

[echogolfc.d.]

I ve tried to make sense from the nonsense that is on vtst site. bottom line is assuming finances are available she maybe displaying next year. We shall see. Nite folks. need my sleep and this issue does not justify me staying out of bed when i ve got an early start.

[PPRuNe Pop]

And this is what the Daily Mail is saying today.

Last Cold War Vulcan bomber to take final flight next year because of soaring restoration costs | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217846/Last-Cold-War-Vulcan-bomber-final-flight-year-soaring-restoration-costs.html)

[cuefaye]

So the bowls are out again for one last session. Well done Dr P and one or three others. Presumably that'll keep you going for a few more holiday-years?

[echogolfc.d.]

the stuff on website is garbage. only ting there bothered about is their retirement funds.
have fun peeps