Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

P.S.

Hurn, spot on observationwise :ok:

[deltapapa]

I can understand people being disappointed with her no show - but

some make it sound as though it's down to a couldn't careless attitude, far from it, the engineers were working late into the night to get the problem sorted, functionals & indepent checks today, bits break it can't be hepled.

It is unsafe to fly without the AFU it prevents the airframe from being over stressed

safety will always come first.......

[Matt Jones]

So the Vulcan went tech? It's last year all over again:(

[deltapapa]

she 100% servicable again :ok:

not much compensation for those who missed her yesterday, but good news for departure for Waddington on Thursday

[matt_hooks]

The important thing is have they got her fixed up yet?

I'm heading down to Waddington, and whilst it'll be good whatever, the Vulcan is most definitely the highlight, and I'll be a little disappointed if she's not able to make it.

[Oberon 1]

I do hope that VTS don't miss the trick as well.

And please tell me which trick that we are supposed to have missed?
The aircraft got as far as engine start before the Elevator Art Feel Unit failed. Fortunately, we had a spare one with us; unfortunately, it wasn't designed to be replaced in the timescale that would allow the aircraft to have made Biggin Hill.
The engineers worked late last night fitting another unit ready for today's independent testing (almost 3 hours for the indys alone) and then we were able to declare the aircraft serviceable.

Both us and the aircrew are gutted when we don't manage to launch for a display. We are very well aware that at the other end are many people who have donated hard-earned cash to this project and we feel the disappointment at a no-show as much as they do.



Oberon

(Missing tricks in the aviation industry for 36 years)

[forget]

Oberon, I don't doubt that you feel the disappointment at a no-show as much as the punters. :( Now that you've told them what 'they' may find difficult to grasp is that post installation independents on an Artificial Feel Unit take 3 hours. Is this from the original AP/Manual or some new CAA procedure. Just curious. :)

[Oberon 1]

Is this from the original AP/Manual or some new CAA procedure.

Original AP & SP's (servicing procedures). On fitting, there are the airframe aspects where the unit interfaces with the control runs. Ergonomics weren't invented back when this unit was designed and it's a bitch to replace. Then there are the electrical aspects where the plugs have to be fitted, the functional check carried out, and any adjustments made on the "trim pots", then you have ( in this case), to call one bloke in off holiday to do the elctrical indys and one bloke from Cambridge (Marshall Aerospace) to do the Airframe indys.

The electrical indys take as long to do as the functional (pumping airspeed into both pitot systems to check the function). By the time that you have been over the whole speed range at least 5 times and the independents have also been done on the pitot static system (which you had to disturb to replace the Art Feel Unit) you are looking at close to 3 hours.



Oberon

(Back to being on holiday)

[forget]

Thanks, I believe you, particularly on the 'Ergonomics weren't invented back when this unit was designed and it's a bitch to replace'. :hmm:

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Aboot what time she likely to leave for Waddo on thurs please chaps/esses ?

[Tempsford]

Oberon,

congrats to you and the team for getting the a/c 's'. My point is that you operate the most distinctive aircraft on the airshow circuit in the UK. Its absence is noted straight away and if it is not on the programme I am sure that the attendance will be suitably affected at other airshows. On Sunday at Biggin, the aircraft that I heard most people talking about was the Vulcan. When other a/c became 'no shows' it was a case of 'what a shame', but when the Vulcan was a 'no show' people were genuinely disappointed.
Oh, and by the way, only 36 years! Get some blummin time in!

[Paradism]

Can anybody tell me if there was a video tape made of the disbandment parade of the last Vulcan Squadron (50 Sqn). I would love to have one if available. I spent many happy? hours fixing the comms, ecm and radars on the squadron and it was a sad day when we finally disbanded. Great fun when we converted to tanking and a great relief to see the end of the tailcone "dustbins".

[Cornerstone958]

Would the 'need to know' chaps please advise on the ETD from BZN on Thursday
Thanks
CS

[Oberon 1]

ETD 13:30L Barring any mishaps




Oberon

[ZH875]

Can anybody tell me if there was a video tape made of the disbandment parade of the last Vulcan Squadron (50 Sqn). I would love to have one if available. I spent many happy? hours fixing the comms, ecm and radars on the squadron and it was a sad day when we finally disbanded. Great fun when we converted to tanking and a great relief to see the end of the tailcone "dustbins".


Some footage of the 50(B) disbandment parade does appear on a video (maybe 'Waddingtons Vulcans' I have it on VHS and copied to DVD. The march out of 5 shed is on definately on it.

ZH875
50(B) Sqn Comms/ECM/Radar
1979-1984

[Blacksheep]

If the curses that have been called down upon the designers of the Vulcan artificial feel unit have had any effect, their b*llocks will have long since festered at their newly squared edges, rotted and fallen off. Unfortunately most of the surviving eunuchs seem to have joined Boeing, where they were put to work devising Feel and Centering Units. :rolleyes:

You did a good job Oberon 1.

[hurn]

I was at Biggin today and when it was announced that the Vulcan would not be appearing, there was a notable number of spectators who left. Not 'well more fool them' it is a fact! I'm sure it is fact. But if people are shelling out £20 to see a show and then leaving because one aircraft doesn't turn up then I still say more fool them.
Its their choice of course, but if I wanted to just watch the Vulcan I'd go camp outside Brize.

Please do not patronise the paying public is such a way because without their patronage there would not be a future for any of the aircraft on the airshow circuit and not just the precious Vulcan.Funnily enough, I AM one of the paying public, and I DO donate money to keep the Vulcan flying. I'm certainly no aviation expert, merely an enthusiast.
However unlike many of the 'must have it now!' British public types, I can understand that things DO go wrong.
As much as 100% serviceability is desired, it'll probably never happen with such a large old aircraft. Its disappointing but that's life, and I still manage to enjoy the show I've paid to see.


To end on a lighter note, the latest engineering update has been posted: Vulcan To The Sky News (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=577&z=2)

[srobarts]

Left brize at 14.05 after 10min display. Brill

[Vulcan 903]

Not good news for the project resulting a no display at Waddington today.

[nacluv]

What's the problem?

[echogolfc.d.]

I don't know. I only found out this am when I logged on to the club forum.
Due to ill health I have taken a back seat this year, so not got any facts yet.
I am awaiting information along with some very pissed off Club members.
As soon as my grapevine kicks in I will let you folks know. Needless to say I am extremely pissed off/livid!!!!

[Howslo]

Permit to fly has expired and not been renewed. Reasons unknown at present. A statement is awaited from the trust.

[mark36]

the problem is the PTF expired on the 2nd july and the application wasn't submitted to the CAA until the 26/6.
CAA rules state that a permit to fly authorisation takes on average 15 days to process,so make your own minds up where fault lies.
There's gonna be a lot of angry people at Waddo this weekend after last years no show on the sunday and all the hard selling this week about the formation flying with the reds and the breitling team.
Unfortunately i expect the blame to be apportioned elsewhere as i dont expect the management to accept responsibility.
Unfortunately i fear this could be the first nail in the coffin as mr general public won't buy many more excuses especially when it appears to be down to total incompetence by a very amateur outfit.:mad:

[Vulcan 903]

Aircraft is fine and working order. Yes - C of A is up and I think you will find that one of the main engineering companies behind the project forgot to do some NDT/paperwork in time for yesterdays submission.

It will get the C of A next week I expect but it does not do anything for the people behind the Waddington air show this weekend and the many many people Q'ing up right now at the gates expecting to see it fly later.

[andrewmcharlton]

If that is what has happened it is a pretty disgraceful state of affairs. There are enough hurdles for it to overcome without being airworthy and grounded due to an oversight.

[nacluv]

If this is correct, then this is the Foxtrot Uniform of all time, and this project has had far more than it's fair share to start with.

How can that possibly get overlooked?

:{:ugh::sad::eek::uhoh::=:bored: and finally :mad:

[hurn]

The 'Twitter Service' is an official source of news for XH558 run by someone close to the project. This has been said:

No flying this weekend.
Aircraft serviceable but conditions of renewing permit to fly have not been met as a structural inspection of XM603 that CAA wanted has not been made.
We are as disappointed as you.Now I'll defend things like going unserviceable as that's part and parcel of old aircraft.
But this........ :ugh:

[nacluv]

This begs further questions - such as:

How can a structural inspection of XM603 be a dependency on the granting of a CofA for XH558? What relevance could it possibly have?

In any case, I thought '603 had been/was about to be scrapped? What good would a structural inspection of that airframe do now?

I'm sure that's the mere tip of the iceberg as far as incoming questions goes.

Unbef*ckinglieveable.

Edit: I'm well aware that '603 is an agreed organ bank for '558, and I can understand that the CAA might want to know the condition of some or all of the spares on hand to grant the PF or CofA, but I very much do not believe that any of '603's structure will be on the donor parts list.

[Bye]

This would be a destructive test of a sample of material from the airframe to look at material degradation, age hardening etc.

so it is a sample of a similar age that can be tested in a lab for life evaluation etc.

couldn't do it on 558 without damaging it in a key area of the structure.

standard stuff for extending airframe life.

Geoff

[forget]

... standard stuff for extending airframe life.

Staying on the ground is also very effective.

[hurn]

Official statement released: Vulcan To The Sky News (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=579&z=1)


As part of the 2005-7 Major servicing, a number of structural inspections had to be deferred, because it was not feasible to complete them on XH558’s airframe. It was planned by VTST and Marshal Aerospace, in agreement with BAE Systems and the Civil Aviation Authority, that these inspections would be carried out before the renewal of XH558’s Permit to Fly on 3rd July 2009, using the airframe of BAE Systems-owned Vulcan XM603 at Woodford, as part of the scrapping process of this aircraft. Unfortunately, despite best intentions, it has not yet proved possible to complete or establish mitigations for all these inspections. Consequently, we have currently not fully met the conditions that would enable the issue of XH558’s Permit to Fly renewal.

XH558 is however is fully serviceable and ready for flight, and Marshall Aerospace together with VTST and BAE Systems are doing all they can as quickly as they can to resolve this unexpected, one-off issue within the next few days. We are very sad that it is not going to be possible for the Vulcan to display at Waddington over the weekend of 4th/5th July.

[Buckster]

how can they possibly class it as a "one-off unexpected issue" ?

[flipflopman RB199]

Now, as you know, I don't post up very much any more on the subject of 558, as to be totally honest I've had a gutful of it all. Having had a little more 'behind the scenes' experience than others, and having personally experienced the full effects of the appalingly bad 'management' on many seperate occasions, My patience has been tested to the point where I no longer have any interest in being associated with the whole debacle, however....

Having just heard and read about all of this, and especially the quite frankly ridiculous press release posted above, complete with TVOC's attempts to shrug it off as a "one off" occasion despite "best intentions" I feel that I'd quite like to vent my spleen a little and throw in my 2p worth!

There is only really one place where the buck stops here, and that is firmly at the door of the self appointed "Engineering Director" or "Engineering Manager" or whichever grandiose title he has decided to award himself this month. Unfortunately, with such a position, comes certain responsibilities and one of those is the ultimate responsibility for all engineering matters. Whether or not he chooses to delegate the matters elsewhere to people who are more suited or capable is immaterial. Ultimately, he is the end of the road and should take ultimate responsibility. The fact of the matter in this case is that the Structural Sampling tests, which have been known about for over 2 years now, have not been completed, despite the fact that the CAA have mandated that these are essential conditions of the permit being renewed, and as the Engineering Manager, ultimately, he is responsible for ensuring that the Sampling was completed in time for the renewal. Simple as that really.

The checks being discussed originally formed part of the original RAF Major servicing, which was being carried out alongside all of the Enhanced inspections and modifications XH558 recieved during her restoration. Originally, as the name suggests, the sampling checks were carried out across a percentage of the fleet, to give a broad idea of the condition of the fleet, and were not carried out on every aircraft undergoing a major. Due to this fact, and because of the depth of some of the sampling checks, which included such inaccessible items as the Fin attachment bolts for example, it was agreed during discussion with the CAA etc that the checks could be carried out on XM603 as technically she was part of the fleet, and any damage, dissasembly required would not incur the headaches it would with 558. All well and good, and required much good will from the CAA really. The conditions imposed by the CAA for this however, was that the work would be carried out prior to the next Permit application. A little like an ADF in principle. This gave TVOC a window of over a year to do this work and present the results. This work was then left incomplete and therefore, quite rightly the CAA have refused the application. What is particularly outrageous about all of this is that this has clearly been known about for a VERY long time, and has taken place through a year where for a large chunk, there has been very little for the engineers to do, and despite the protestations that will inevitably follow, that is an inescapable fact. Obviously, these are only my own opinions, but to allow this to reach the stage where we now have a grounded aircraft and a refused Permit, smacks of either incredibly incompetant engineering management, or blatent arrogance and disregard of aviation legislation and rules that are in place for everyones safety. On a more sinister note, it begs the question as to whether the application for renewal was put in by TVOC quietly, with the hope that it would simply be renewed. Either way, the buck must stop somewhere, and how many times can events like this be tolerated and simply glossed over with a little "It's a one off" spin?

Sorry if you disagree with any or all of my post, but I am sat here fuming and utterly utterly disgusted on all levels, and to be totally frank, embarassed to have been associated with TVOC in any way at all.

Rant over...


Flipflopman

[andrewmcharlton]

Flipflopman,

Great post, bang on the money. This is but one item where the buck should stop nowhere else. Engineering and airworthyness / safety are obviously priority without question, just add fundraising, communications, accountability, marketing, PR etc etc etc to the list.

Wonder when anyone there will accept any responsibility for anything. Nuff said.

[forget]

Flipflop, I know how much effort you've put into 558 and I feel for you - genuinely. Having had the pleasure of meeting you (and with a lifetime in the company of other 'aircraft people') I'd like to suggest that you consider the up-coming position of Engineering Director/Manager. I'm serious. Any seconders?

[Buckster]

can the project survive this ?

would love to see her fly at RIAT - only seen her once so far and that was passing over Oxford services - was a delight to see even so though

[Wassermaranow]

can the project survive this ?

If I were a potential sponsor, which I may be, who do you think I now view this apparent utter, utter incompetance?

FFM, is spot on, they've known for over a year this inspection / testing was required, hardly a one-off!

Someone has to answer some questions, and fast!

[mark36]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a reply.Apparently they've not even had the decency to answer questions around the vulcan now in static limbo.Suppose they'll leave it to the volunteers on the vulcan village to take the flack.I suspect that excuse for an official statement is all we will get

[Gainesy]

I presume it will have to stay at Waddo untill a new PTF is issued, which I also assume it won't be until the work on 603 is carried out. So how long will that be?

[srobarts]

If it takes the CAA 15 (working?) days to process application and the inspection of 603 still hasn't happened, then Yeovilton and Fairford must be doubtful to say the least.
Time for Mr Pleming to come clean?

[LookingNorth]

Well, 3 hours driving there and back to an airshow barely worthy of the name and the only thing I wanted to see being towed into the static park when I arrived. Cheers :ok:

mark36 - 4 members of groundcrew and a member of Her Majesty's Finest Nautical Burger Eating (and Fire Fighting) Service were all on hand at the aircraft answering lots of questions around midday... and had been there for ages, visibly suffering in the heat. One of them said the filth had even been called to deal with an overly exuberant member of the crowd that was attempting to extract satisfaction from a young female volunteer at the "Village" thing (it doesn't look much look a village?).

S**t airshow, more dead air than flying, and massed ranks of Cessnas to lull you to sleep while you walk the lines of "win a duck" and "crap sweeties for sale" stalls... no disrespect to the light blue but talk about hanging an airshow on a single act... that grey lumpy bizjet spiralling up while I was queuing to get in was class though. Still, "Little Johnny" was happy as he got to go inside a plastic Chinook. I'm sure he's "special"...

[mark36]

thanks for that LN,i would expect nothing else from the overall brigade who i know work their buts of for the cause.My comment was more aimed at the heirachy who should be the ones facing the public over this debacle.

[Tempsford]

Well said Looking North, but be ready to repel boarders!:D

[PPRuNe Pop]

I don't normally make any comments except those of a general type and usually connected with modding this forum.

However, I am about to make an exception.

If what I read is true then the engineering incompetence shown by the Director, and maybe one or two of his staff, is an absolute disgrace. Tempsford won't mind me saying that he holds a similar position and I'd take a bet that none of his aircraft (rather more in number than just one!) would be susceptible to this kind of negligence. Paperwork is the soul of an aircraft and must be perfect before it can fly.

After the pleading and cajoling of well earned money from those who contributed to this project it is a massive kick in the backside for all those who have waited to see 558 in the air. IF the PtoF expired on the 2nd July a new one should have been obtained before that date!

If the 558 is serviceable, and has been for some time, then there can be no possible excuse and the person responsible should stand up and be counted and to be made accountable for gross incompetence and probably resign - but NOT before he rectifies his wrong. !5 days for a PofE is normal and he MUST have known that.

It is a fiasco of the worst kind and Dr Pleming must make an announcement.

[danohagan]

Posted on UKAR, and other forums by Damien Burke. I have his permission to post it here:

Over on the VTS forum, there were calls for Eddie Forrester (big sponsor) to start lopping heads off etc. I've just got off the phone with Eddie.

He's currently away from the internet for some hours but asked me to post this on his behalf; I'll copy it here for general interest given the remarks here about management, without further comment.

Eddie is FULLY AWARE of all the circumstances behind today's news and says it is NOT, REPEAT NOT the fault of anyone in VTS management despite what you may read on internet forums and would ask that temperatures are lowered in here and the calls for resignations etc. are stopped as you are all working from the basis of inaccurate or non-existent information.

Just an FYI as it's aimed at the VTS forum residents really.

[Razor61]

So who is to blame then? :ugh:

[airsound]

As the official Vulcan flying display commentator, I have been at Waddo all day today, and will be tomorrow. I have conducted 2 interviews on local PA, and 3 for local (air show) radio. I have also talked to countless people at the Vulcan Village, and to other people who have asked questions as I walked around the show site. I have found that, almost without exception, people have been sympathetic to VTST’s problems, once they’ve had the facts explained to them.

I’ve started by saying that VTST is totally gutted by this appalling situation. But I’ve asked people to consider that this is not a situation of VTST’s making - and indeed was something that VTST did not hear about until late Friday.

A year ago, the CAA said that before the next Permit to Fly renewal (3 Jul 2009) investigative work had to be completed on Vulcan 603 at BAES Woodford - an aircraft owned by BAES, not VTST. This was not work that VTST had to carry out - or even could do, since it was not their aircraft.

Despite many reminders, or possibly even badgering, from VTST, the work was not carried out. VTST was given to understand, however, that some flexibility could be available for a temporary extension of the PTF. This turned out, late on Friday, not to be the case

It seems to me that no blame attaches to the CAA, or to BAES - and indeed, the CAA have been trying very hard to resolve the problem, even over the weekend.

It is all thoroughly regrettable - and no one feels more badly than the VTST people I have seen around me at Waddo today. But, as the admirable Eddie Forrester says (thanks Damien and Dan)
it is NOT, REPEAT NOT the fault of anyone in VTS management.

Maybe I’ll see you at Waddo tomorrow. Please come and say hallo, or even toss a few insults in. It’ll be a pleasure to see you.

sean
airsound

[hurn]

Sorry if I'm being a bid stupid here, but who was supposed to carry out the work on 603?

BAE themselves or a third party?

It would also seem a tad naive of VTST to be assuming a temporary extension of the PtF could be had without (it would seem) getting official word from the CAA that this was definitely the case.

[NutLoose]

And it takes you to the eve of the show when thousands of people have paid out good money to travel to the show to tell us this, you scum management should all resign, Fleming first as he is supposed to be the head of this.

you have had my last donation and no doubt that of a lot more, people paid for this out of their own pockets to support you and get you were you are today, and you have had since 2005-2007 to get this rectified, additionally an application for a renewal can go in one month before for a permit renewal, so you can come on here and deride other people as it being their fault, but I am afraid the buck stops with you! You knew what had to be done, you failed to ensure it was and then you have the audacity to allow members of the said public to pay out good money in a harsh climate for a show and to get there to see her fly when you know it will not happen......

I hope you all get your P45's over this and stop living off the backs of the public that put you in your management positions........

Your goodwill has gone down the drain, and the shame is you are dragging Waddingtons Show with it.................

Do as your website appears to have done, quit. :mad:

Why is everyone making excuses for Lemming......... sorry Flemming and why is he not answering them himself? he should step down forthwith.

[kwh]

Err... sorry, Airsound, that doesn't add up.

1. "Given to understand" sounds rather like "chose to assume". "Only became apparent" means "Only became apparent to the numpty who chose to assume". I very much doubt that the CAA changed their mind about issuing new a permit to fly on Friday evening - I suspect that they said what they said a year ago, in writing, and have been entirely consistent ever since!

2. Why would BAES spend time and money doing destructive testing on a scrap airframe as a favour to VTST/TVOC? Why, when XH558 was in apparent hibernation over winter, didn't VTST/TVOC offer to turn up and do the work themselves? If the offer had been made but BAES refused to allow TVOC/VTST personnel to do it themselves, and the work wasn't going to get done, as would have been obvious weeks ago, why didn't VTST/TVOC forewarn the CAA and achieve resolution with them one way or the other back then?

So, if the CAA said what they meant and meant what they said a year ago and haven't said anything different since, and if BAES haven't done anything wrong, then it's really not a case of 'shrug, it's nobody's fault'. It's a monumental engineering project management f***-up of epic proportions. With an aircraft that is probably slated to do no more than ten public displays a year, and is typically either U/S or WX prevented from participating in at least 60% of them, that leaves about 4 possible UK flying displays a year that are actually going to happen, and this entirely avoidable cock-up has just wiped out at least two of them, possibly more. This year the 'display season' started in mid June because the 'winter maintenance' wasn't started until spring, and it could already be over. Pisspoor return on all those pledges from people who wanted to see the thing fly...

[Nopax,thanx]

As someone who has been on the front line of Permit applications just before an airshow, I have actually been able to get a Permit to Fly issued to my organisation in two days.

Maybe someone from the CAA would like to comment?

[NutLoose]

Airsound I do not believe you are saying that rubbish.

Even if the permit renewal was due on the 3rd of July.

GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=VLCN)

the Appication wasn't even put in until

Open Applications and Approvals Cases

Application Type:A8-20 Permit RenewalReceived Date:26/06/2009Expected Date
of Processing:14/07/2009

and it is not expected to be completeted until after Yeovilton has been and gone.......... that is a Management cock up and as such bearing in mind the financial outlay of a lot of public supporters in getting to the show, those responsible including Flemming however you spell it should RESIGN........ If I did the same with my renewals I process every year I would be sacked, and you only have ONE to do.

[Big Eric]

The photos taken on Thursday when XH558 arrived at Waddington are likely to be the last photos of this wonderful lady in the sky,looks like Waddo will have 2 gate-guard Vulcans now,see the final? arrival here:

Waddo Thursday. (http://fightercontrol.forumotion.com/airshow-pictures-f75/waddo-thursday-t11649.htm)

[NutLoose]

I think you and everyone else show demand a refund........ one or two will not carry any weight but a lot will......... Sad to Say Waddingtons Reputation has been damaged over this.

[kwh]

Vulcan To The Sky Trust Forum (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6732)

Written by "saracenman"...

I quote (in case TVOC management pull it later):

(Posted in the ‘Engineering’ section of the forum due to this being an Engineering topic!)

I wanted to post this as a poll, but that function doesn’t appear to be available any longer. Even so, here are my intended poll choices:

quote:1. No management changes required

2. Dr. Pleming (CEO) should be replaced with immediate effect

3. Mr. Edmondson (Eng. Mngr) should be replaced with immediate effect

4. Both should be replaced with immediate effect




In the light of this weekend’s situation with respect to 558's lack of Permit to Fly renewal, I know many of us appreciate just how important this matter is for 558's immediate future.

Whilst we as VTS Club members have no actual power as a Public Limited Company's shareholders do, we remain VTS’s primary source of funding; as such, is it not appropriate for us to have a voice in exactly how our money is spent? Is it not just as important that our wishes be listened to by VTS Trust?

In addition to the poll above, I propose that the VTS Club convenes an Extraordinary meeting, as a matter of urgency, to address the ongoing issues with VTS Trust management. I propose that the VTS Club Committee consider withholding funding from the Trust until we the Club are 100% confident in the Trust management’s abilities to continue operating 558 as a display aeroplane. In short, the Club Committee should press for the removal of Mr. Edmondson from his position within VTS Trust.

Please add your comments!

Many of you may know that I’ve long been a critic of VTS Trust’s management ‘skills’ and that, after a ‘reshuffle’ of employees last autumn, I began to see a very promising change in attitudes ‘at the top’ – I made a point of voicing my POSITIVE opinions just as vehemently as my previous NEGATIVE opinions, although qualifying my comments with the point that further changes would still be required.

My thoughts in this respect have not changed and I firmly believe that all of us have now seen for ourselves just how much has changed over the past eight months or so. At long last, the Club has been able to prove just what an effective and dedicated team we are, particularly with respect to rescuing the project earlier this year with the successful Pledge Scheme, and the more recent marketing and merchandising incentives.

Sadly though, we have continually been let down by the Trust management – typically by the complete lack of timely information; this weekend has been yet another classic example of the apparent distain the Trust management have for the very people who raise the funds to pay their salaries!

Hopefully most of you know me well enough to appreciate that I don’t throw accusations around wildly, without having at least a modicum of information on the subject, much of which is given to me in strictest confidence. I DO know what has been going on, ‘behind the scenes’ and I would like to think that most will trust my opinion to be an informed and ‘educated’ one.

This weekend is by no means the first time that VTS Trust management have made errors, but usually the fact that they have been identified and rectified by outside parties or people goes unpublicised, resulting in VTS hailed as wonderful. This weekend is no exception and, in my own opinion, whether Marshall Aerospace were directly to blame, Andrew Edmondson’s role is to manage all engineering matters, including ensuring that engineering contractors do whatever it is that they are contracted to do. By default he is ultimately responsible for this current shambles. There is a distinct difference between being BLAMEWORTHY, and being RESPONSIBLE. All managers are paid to take responsibility for their department, whether they are directly to blame or not – ergo, Mr. Edmondson is RESPONSIBLE for this utter mess.

Sticking my head on the block even more, even IF the Permit to Fly renewal IS sorted out, my information is that there are other important engineering matters which cast a shadow of doubt over 558's display status within weeks. Please do not ask me for specifics, as I will not betray the confidence that others have placed upon me. Suffice to say that it is another 100% engineering matter for which Mr. Edmondson is wholly responsible.

Sadly, issues such as these reflect badly on ALL those who work tirelessly for 558’s benefit, and easily overshadow all the hard work done by so many. Thinking back to my own involvement in the Pledge Scheme ‘telethon’, most of the hundreds of Club members I spoke to asked the same thing, “Is this going to happen every year?” I proudly replied that I had every confidence in the ‘new team’ at the helm, and that I really thought that the project had gathered momentum. I now feel as if I have deceived all those who pledged money to keeping 558 flying, and that I swindled them out of their hard-earned cash.

I am personally sick and tired of the endless attitude of secrecy surrounding many 558 matters, and I KNOW to what degree we Club members are treated like ‘mushrooms’ (kept in the dark and fed on ‘manure’)

We have just experienced a prime example of this, in that 558 flew to Waddington AFTER the Permit to Fly issue was known about at the highest managerial level – and yet no official statement was issued until late morning on Saturday, the first day of display at Waddington. Elsewhere on the internet, it has been quoted that VTS Trust did not know about this until Friday – whatever anyone else wants you to believe, it is NONSENSE, because I knew about it on Thursday! In my opinion, this is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

For far too long now, VTS Trust management have enjoyed applause and praise for a job well done, when in truth, much of it has been ineptly mismanaged by those whose salaries WE work very hard to pay, whilst issues tend to get sorted out by others counting on the enormous goodwill and passion that exists for 558. This surely cannot continue indefinitely!

If the current and culpable VTS Trust management escape this time, just what WILL it take to PROVE what ineffective, inexperienced and inept management we have in charge of OUR aeroplane?

Please DO add your comments, whether you agree or disagree with me - 558 is OUR aeroplane and our opinions DO matter!

sm


There would appear to be a good deal of economy avec l'actualite in all this. Not really acceptable behaviour from an organisation like this that exists solely because of a combination of public money and continues to exist by dint of donations. I can think of almost nothing, except possibly some of the commercials surrounding any corporate sponsorship, that should be remotely secret. I think the guilty heads need to roll.

[ronstv]

Is the Permit to fly needed for 558 to fly at all or just for it to do a public display? if its just for a public display cant the vulcan actually do a take off then fly away for 10 mins then come back and land. that way we all get to see it flying

[Winco]

airsound

yet again we hear more drivvel from you supporting your mate Plemming in his hour of need, over the fiasco called TVOC and how it is everyones fault, yet again, except TVOC and the baffoon called Plemming. The head man of this project and he didn't know that the PtF was about to expire?? What a joke it all is.

But, lets get a couple of things straightened out right away.

The CAA make it abundantly clear that they require at least 15 working days to complete the paperwork etc. for a PtF, even a renewal. To you and me thats about three weeks! In view of that, perhaps you could tell us why TVOC applied to the CAA on the 26th of June for a new PtF? After all, they did have roughly 12 months notice to get it sorted out didn't they?

I was also at Waddo today, and I listened to all the guff that the groundcrew spouted to the public after the aircraft was towed into Alpha dispersal, including Taff S, who I know from past V bomber days. I even had the opportunity to have a very brief chat with Martin W in the aircrew feeder tent in between him being videoed and interviewed by everyone.

Between them all, I heard the following excuses, that:

It was BAEs fault for not sorting the NDT stuff on 603
It was Marshalls fault for not getting the paperwork sorted out in time
and of course it was the CAAs fault, who were 'just being the CAA'

Well, what about the good old TVOC fault then? Don't you think its a bit of good old PPP on the part of TVOC?? Thats Pi$$ Poor Planning if you didn't realise?? or maybe PPM? Yes, Pi&& Poor Management!

The last permit was issued in July 2008 and had a life of exactly 12 months (expireing in July 2009) That's not rocket science is it? And, as you and the other guys involved in the project have all complained in the past about how long the CAA take to sort things out, I ask the question: why didn't you start things just a little bit earlier? maybe a month ago? Maybe 6 weeks ago, just to give yourself a fighting chance, in case anything untowards cropped up? To apply less than a week before the other one expired is nothing short of shameful and Plemming, as the head baffoon, should hang his head in shame and resign (after he has made a public apology to all those who were swindled out of their money yet again by TVOC of course)

Utter Bo££ocks , thats what it is.

This project has been and continues to be a farce, and after todays fiasco people rightly think you are conning them, and I agree entirely.

People have come many many miles and spent many thousands of pounds to be at Waddo today, only to be given another load of rubbish from TVOC. I know Plemming is a good friend of yours, but face it, he is a joke isn't he? Certainly I think so and I would think that many thousands of people at Waddo today will also think so.

Whatever way you look at this latest fiasco, this is clearly the responsibility of the management, and that means Plemming. How much longer can this fool continue in post I wonder?

The Winco

[BlackadderIA]

Flyaway and return would involve flight - for which I believe some sort of permit is required :)

[gordonroxburgh]

Whatever the circumstances the 2 following things are true

1. VTS did not appear to submit a PtF application in time.

2. VTS, knowing that there PTF, had not been applied for in time, continued business as usual, even though it was obvious that the Vulcan would be grounded pending resolution of the issue.

No matter how people defend the circumstances how how things got this way, its clear the VTS's management really messed the whole thing up and its now time for a change, otherwise there will be zero confidence in their operation.

[hunterboy]

"Bunch of amateurs" is the phrase that springs to mind. What is it about old aircraft that attracts well meaning amateurs?
They need to start spending money in the right areas. That would include hiring people that know both CAA and military servicing protocols.
They begrudge paying a few quid for expert advice and then throw it away at Marshalls and mistakes like this.

[srobarts]

In any project management there are tasks, milestones and dependencies. Some one in Vulcan to the Sky should have been watching those milestones and monitoring the tasks to ensure that the paperwork was ready to submit in time with a contingency for any problems. Even if the task was assigned to a contractor it was the VTTS project manager's job to ensure the tasks were on track to meet the milestones. To submit an incomplete application late and still expect it to slide through seems to beggar belief.
Pleming's job was simple to monitor that his project manager was on track with his projects.
I am just Gobsmacked.
At least I saw the display at Brize as brunty left for Waddington.
Full public statement Mr Pleming to your very disappointed supporters.

[Discus_296]

Whatever the circumstances the 2 following things are true

1. VTS did not appear to submit a PtF application in time.

2. VTS, knowing that there PTF, had not been applied for in time, continued business as usual, even though it was obvious that the Vulcan would be grounded pending resolution of the issue.


I'm sorry, but on the info we have, both of those statements are nothing but speculation.

We don't know what the conversations between the VTST and the CAA were, whether there was an understanding to fast track things if other requirements could be met (the CAA bent over backwards last year, they wouldn't do it if there weren't a few people in power there that wanted to see this work).

We don't know whether the paperwork was submitted to "get it in the system and ready".

We don't know what the conditions for granting of the PTF that weren't met or the mitigations that could not be made were.

I'm as pissed off as the next person, I will be at Waddington tomorrow to see her, even if she doesn't fly, as I can't make any of the other major shows this year, and if I by some miracle bump into Mr Phlemming he'll have to do some pretty quick explaining if he wants to end the day with as many teeth as he started with.

But at the end of the day we don't have enough facts to even pin blame on anyone yet. Yes VTST is ultimately responsible, but that doesn't mean that they must get the blame. We simply don't have the information to decide that yet.

At the end of the day all I want to see is a flying Vulcan. My first memory of an airshow was going with my family to RAF Leeming to see XH558's last show there. I was 9 years old and it's what started my obsession with flight. I'm as frustrated as everyone else, but this is just another hurdle to overcome, there's no point slinging mud yet, there will be time for that when actual facts emerge!

J

[Bob on the Ground]

As you can see from the number of posts I have made to PPRUNE I am more of a fascinated reader than a contributor as not being part of the aviation world I don't feel qualified to comment on issues and I leave it to those that do (or pretend to!:}).

However, I am so exceptionally disappointed as a punter at Waddo today that I felt I had to add my voice to those who have been critical of TVOC.

After I got caught out with RIAT last year I made sure to keep an eye on both TVOC's site and PPRUNE to see if there was any impediment to XH558 flying this weekend. Nothing on either of these sources (I even checked before I left the house at 0530 this morning to see if there were any last minute developments). So after a three hour car journery to Waddo I heard the news on the Airshow radio station just as I paid my entrance fee. Gutted. With the frankly poor line up for the 'RAF's premier air show' the Vulcan was the only reason I was making the trip (I really feel for the poor chap who travelled from South Wales -see RAF Waddington thread in Mil Aircrew). Had XH558 gone tech then that would just have been one of those things on a complex aircraft. But this is a monumental balls up. I heard several mutterings from TVOC members in the crowd line that they would cancel their memberships over this.

A PR disaster for TVOC and despite what was said over the tannoy it would appear that TVOC are not entirley blameless? Treating both TVOC members and the viewing public with this contempt is going to hit TVOC's coffers hard when they need to fund raise again - the money will simply dry up. If indeed it emerges that TVOC were not directly responsible for her failure to fly this weekend, they at least need to shoulder some responsibility for the management of the renewal for the PtF.

I am happy to be corrected, but presumably TVOC would have known that she wouldn't be able to a fly a little earlier than this morning. Could they really not have issued the press release (like last night) before people set out for Waddo?

The only bright side (apart from topping up the tan) was the Breitling Team - stunning display guys. Blew the Reds out of the water.

[Alber Ratman]

XH558 is grounded until the CAA say otherwise.. I gave TVOC 50 quid last week, what a waste it seems..

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Nice post Wingco, said as it really is..

The CAA state on the progress of application for PtF's on their website. XH558's was only submitted in the last week of June..:confused::confused:

It takes 15 days to officially process and the CAA have done TVOC enough favours..:=:=

[NutLoose]

Discus_296 we do know when it was submitted and when its estimated issue date is, so kiss goodbuy to Yeovilton as well.... 14/07/2009


Received Date:26/06/2009






GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=VLCN)

Phleming and the Chief Eng should resign at the very least, talk about gross lack of competency.

[SFCC]

Last cash they will ever see from me. Utter W@nkers. I hope thats it for them and it gets passed to somebody who can legitimately operate the machine.
But I doubt it very much.
Martin W and Co must be red faced at this. I do feel for them:ugh:

[modelman]

Today was to be my first airshow in years.Why? The hook for me was to see a flying Vulcan, and I feel conned that to get 558 there when it was known the the PTF would be expired for the the show was purely a commercial decision to get bums on seats.Did these people really believe that the CAA would feel sorry for them and grant them an extension-you wouldn't get one for a Cessna 150 let alone a machine of this size and complexity?
Couldn't a few high speed taxy runs been arranged to partially satisfy the punters?
Have huge admiration for the guys and gals that have got oil on their hands and got this great machine flying again but feel thay have been badly served by their admin.
I felt the rest of the show was lacklustre and disjointed and I feel sorry for the way the Vampire was held for so long-why call him up to the hold when he clearly wasn't needed for a bit?(thought his display was very nice though).

Bit of thread drift but as it is a few years since I last went to an airshow-have the safety brigade been at it again:the 'low' flying looked rather high to me and some manouevres seem very distant.
MM

[Discus_296]

Nutlose,

We do know the official date of submission, however we do not know the circumstances surrounding it, hence my point.

"Estimated Issue Date" is the CAA equivalent of the "please allow up to 28 days for delivery" you see when ordering something with coupons from a cornflakes packet, an arbitrary target date.

It may have been perfectly reasonable to submit when they did (in the "get it in the system and we'll negotiate" scenario).*

It may have been a monumental balls up due to timing (i.e. if the only thing holding it up was the papework).

It may have been submitted as a last ditch effort (i.e. "I don't think we'll make the conditions but if the paperwork is in at least we have a chance").

When we actually find out what the true circumstances were I'll happily join the lynch mob going after whichever arsehole was at fault, but without that information we can't even state with any degree of confidence whether it was submitted too late. To do so is nothing but conjecture and assumption.

Jamie

*It's worth re-iterating that this is a perfectly plausible and reasonable scenario in light of their accomodating attitude last year. As another poster said, you don't get the CAA to bend over backwards for a your average Cessna, someone there wants this to succeed more than your average PTF aircraft...

[NutLoose]

Which part of the CAA website saying application recieved on the 26th 6 2009 do you not understand? now allowing for the Postal sevices and not expecting TVOC still to be using carrier pidgeons it will have been post on or about the 24th so they would not get it to a Friday and it would not be touched over the weekend, that leaves 5 days to get it processed.........


Even I do not make that rudimentary error with my applications and as a Permit can be applied for a month in advance, the fault points to one place..............

Cessnas are now done online and the CAA has little input, I fill in a few boxes online, print out the certificate, sign it and the job is done, I then post them a copy, but I am responsible for the Issue as such, the website gives the CAA the details and the ARC is renewed.

[skeeler]

All,

Surely the simple solution would be to take 'OUR AIRCRAFT' that the BRITISH PUBLIC and SPONSORS have contributed MILLIONS of pounds to get back into the air, BACK INTO PUBLIC OWNERSHIP by transferring it back to the ROYAL AIR FORCE. Then they can operate it like the true professionals that the RAF are - 'The Battle of Britain and Cold War Memorial Flight'.

On another subject - How likely is it that the reasons for cancellation last Sunday at Biggin Hill are true, given the myriad excuses above for this weekend. All I can say is that had the Vulcan flown at Biggin last Sunday a certain very large airliner in formation with the Red Arrows would have had it's PR wings rather clipped! (Only speculation of course).

POST YOUR VOTES HERE FOR THE 'BATTLE OF BRITAIN AND COLD WAR MEMORIAL FLIGHT'.

In my humble opinion it really is the only way to preserve this superb aircraft in a flying condition for the rest of it's serviceable life.

[NutLoose]

Wont happen, it struggles to get the funding as it is, the last thing the RAF needs is a drain on resources and manpower which they lack.

[chev1]

Well I am now thoroughly pissed off. As others have said I havn't been to an air show for a number of years and thought that as this year is the 40th anniversary of me joining the RAF and also as my first posting was to Waddo (line sqdn) I thought this would be a good time to see the two aircraft I worked on namely Vulcans (558 included) and the Lanc and had bought tickets for Sunday. Now to hear the reasons that 558 won't be flying has really took the biscuit. They have had the last donation from me and as far as I'm concerned I now couldn't care less if it is grounded and all the arses at the top are sacked. I wonder if a refund would be a possibility, as has also been mentioned the poor line up was only brightened by the fact that 558 was to fly and VTTST had made a big thing about the flypast with the Red Arrows. What a total shambles the management of the trust are, I just hope I bump into Mr Pleb tomorrow.

[411A]

Have a look at the Red Bull DC-6B.
Displayed all over Europe, based in Austria...and US registered.
Yup, an N number, alright.

Obvious answer, get an FAA inspector over to the UK, have the Vulcan inspected/approved in the limited category, paint the N number on...and fly the aeroplane to everyones satisfaction.

There, that was easy.;)

[Winco]

airsound

Just another quick question to ask your mate when you are next sipping your Pimms together:

Ask him why, when he was on TV on thursday evening last, telling us all how wonderful things were with the Vulcan, did Plemming not have the balls to tell everyone that there might just be an itsy-bitsy, teeny weeny very slight 'nothing to worry about' problem with the aircraft??

I'll tell you why, because the man has NO balls, and can't face up to the fact that he is out of his depth with this job, together with many other Half-Wits involved in TVOC. I wouldn't let Plemming manage my toilets!

Just for the record, another good friend of mine told me last night that the people manning the VULCAN stall on the flight line had told them that TVOC had simply 'forgotten' about the application!

What a bloody joke this has now sunk too.

The Winco

[NURSE]

I think given the current state of the Defence budge the RAF taking on an aircraft with no other role than being for airdisplays is a non starter.
The Vulcan has proved to be a huge cock up. And Airshow orginisers should now adopt a payment by results approach to TVOC. They get a basic fee no gate returns and only get full fee on completion of flying display.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Vulcan displays at RAF Waddington cancelled
04 July 2009 - VTTS


The Vulcan to the Sky Trust (VTST) and Marshall Aerospace are deeply disappointed and saddened to have to announce that the planned displays of the Vulcan at the RAF Waddington International Airshow on 4th and 5th July have had to be cancelled.

As part of the 2005-7 Major servicing, a number of structural inspections had to be deferred, because it was not feasible to complete them on XH558’s airframe. It was planned by VTST and Marshal Aerospace, in agreement with BAE Systems and the Civil Aviation Authority, that these inspections would be carried out before the renewal of XH558’s Permit to Fly on 3rd July 2009, using the airframe of BAE Systems-owned Vulcan XM603 at Woodford, as part of the scrapping process of this aircraft. Unfortunately, despite best intentions, it has not yet proved possible to complete or establish mitigations for all these inspections. Consequently, we have currently not fully met the conditions that would enable the issue of XH558’s Permit to Fly renewal.

XH558 is however is fully serviceable and ready for flight, and Marshall Aerospace together with VTST and BAE Systems are doing all they can as quickly as they can to resolve this unexpected, one-off issue within the next few days. We are very sad that it is not going to be possible for the Vulcan to display at Waddington over the weekend of 4th/5th July.


For more information on this Press Release, please contact:

VTST - Richard Clarke:
07714 898548 / ([email protected])[email protected] ([email protected]) ([email protected])

[kiwibrit]

XH558 is however is fully serviceable and ready for flight

Interesting use of the word 'serviceable'. In my day as a Vulcan SEngO, OC Eng Wg and my squadron OC would have been on my back if I had declared an aircraft as S when it was still awaiting clearance to fly from higher authority.

[BEagle]

Serviceable, but not airworthy until the Permit to Fly is issued.

The VTST press release is a joke. Not the slightest hint of any apology to the thousands of supporters they have let down with their crass managerial ineptitude.

[cessnapete]

Although there seems an element of 'cock up' in the Vulcan saga, it does seem odd that if the aircraft is safe to fly Friday that a small extention of the PtF could not be granted to allow the paperwork to be completed.

I think the CAA are likely to get a lot more stick in the near future having refused to issue Permits to Fly for all the aircraft in a well known large warbird operator in the South East. An audit of paperwork is being carried out at the height of the Display Season, which will take some time. This effects the largest warbird airshow in the UK where most of the running costs of the organisation are recouped from the gate receipts. A loss of a huge sum of money,as many aircraft from overseas, perversly with lesser CAA oversight ,are having to be brought in for the event.
Most of the aircraft are fully serviceable but are grounded by bureaucracy.

In my airline career with the largest UK operator we had many CAA maintenance/flight ops audits which were done during normal airline operations. The company was not grounded during the audit as in this case.

Many people are of the opinion that with many CAA functions going to EASA the remaining CAA operatives are giving the remaining small UK operators in all parts of UK aviation a hard time in order to justify their jobs.

Campaign Against Aviation! it's getting worse.

[matt_hooks]

Cessna. In general I'd agree, but looking at all the information about this one, I have to say that it seems the CAA are in the right.

I'm saddened, and angry, about the lack of information in advance. The fact that something relatively simple like making sure the paperwork is correct and submitted in plenty of time is beyond the capabilities of the management team doesn't bode well for the future of the project.

I missed all her flights last year due to a major illness, and to see her flying this year has been a major goal, so if this is to be her ignominious end, buried under the ineptitude and stupidity of well paid "senior management" then I will be deeply saddened.

Can we boot out the idiots and put in a management team that can actually manage?

Pi$$ed off of Manchester.

[thelastjedi]

Morning All

I arrived at Waddington at 8.40 yesterday, Traffic was ok and the weather was fantasic, However this was soon to be washed away as, A) The Vulcan XH558 didnt fly AGAIN.... B) No Tornado, WTF ????? im sure you all know what WTF means lol and C) No Harrier ????
Whats going on with waddington ????
Sorry people but this air-show is getting worse by the year.
More and more people are not going each year & this is because the military aircraft are getting beyond a joke.
NO more waddington for me, Fairford is the way forward a PROPPER air-show !!

[Surrey Towers]

I agree, it is pathetic. They treat the people who subscribed to this project this year with contempt by ignoring their responsibilities to be upfront and honest. There is nothing honest about that statement. They didn't apply for the permit until 26th June, a Friday, it will not have reached anyone at the CAA until the 29th and the then current permit expired on the 3rd and they moved 558 to Waddo where they KNEW that it would be impossible for her to fly. Why did they do that?

They also KNEW that the CAA would take 15 days to issue a new permit and that includes two weekends - IF that is how they work.

The ineptitude of the management at Bruntingthorpe beggars belief. The statement 'implicates' BAE and Marshall's and the following part of the statement shows that even now they can lie their heads off.

Marshall Aerospace together with VTST and BAE Systems are doing all they can as quickly as they can to resolve this unexpected, one-off issue within the next few days.

How can it be unexpected? How can it be in the next few days if the CAA's stated expected date of issue is 15 days after receipt of the application. That application should have been sent on the 14th June to have any chance for the 4th July. It is sheer incompetence, no more no less. Then to try and hoodwink those who have traveled a 100 miles or more is an absolute disgrace.

The supporters who write here are to be commended. Not for their input but for their blatant cheek in defending the indefensible.

The engineering director must and should explain himself to the thousands of people who have put their hard earned into this project, expecting 558 to be flying at all the announced displays. That it will not do so with the accompanying pathetic reasons is a serious reflection on the management and they should go.

[iansmith]

I had planned to go to Waddington today, but I cancelled my trip as soon as I heard about the XH558 debacle. I had planned to visit the TVOC stand, hand over my pledge money (and some more to compensate for the delay in paying) and probably buy something too (a sweatshirt if they had any that were big enough!). Now none of that will happen.

Through a combination of work commitments, bad weather and u/s XH558 I didn't get to see her fly at all last year. Whenever I made the effort, I made the wrong call. Looks like the same this year. I could have gone down there on one of the arrivals days, but work pressures plus the "certainty" of seeing her today made me decide to just stick to the normal flight day. I now deeply regret that decision.

Various family and work commitemts this year mean that I only have a couple more chances to see her fly. If/when I do see her, the cheque will be in the post, with a bonus, but I do not feel inclined to donate money to a group that must contain at least a couple of totally inept people unless and until I see some return for my money.

At the very least I find the timing of the announcement deeply cynical and immoral. Why not issue a warning a couple of days out from the airshow, explaining the situation and giving some indication of likelyhood of success or failure. Folks could then make up their mind with the facts at hand.

To me, this smells of cover-up and embarassement. Someone, on or a little before 26th June must have said "did you submit the PtF?". "No - I thought you had done that". "Now that's another fine mess you've got me into" (cue theme music)

On another (related) subject - I'd like to see published accounts of running costs and income from all XH558 displays. I'd like to know how this "company" is being run in a way that stands a chance of making financial sense. Given this c*ck-up, it is likely that there is no proper financial control or revenue optimisation.

I am no specialist in any of these areas, but I have been involved in delivery of very effective projects and have also trouble-shot and recovered failing ones. I'd be willing to lend a hand if it would help.

[andrewmcharlton]

Having planned a trip today to Waddo I'm pleased I didn't set off from Newcastle as every time I went to see 558 fly last year drew a blank too.

Apart from the spineless utterings of the management and lack of communications and acceptance of any sort of responsibility, when are the illustrious and esteemed trustees going to grow a spine and call Pleming, Edmundson and others to account as is their corporate obligation?

Never, on the basis that the tail wagged the dog about PR, Statutory Accounts reporting and supporter donor relations got forgotten about. We should collectively wrte them an open letter via the media and shame those tired old sods into life if the glorious leaders won't.

Utter f*&king disgrace.

Given they harped on about delivering a flying Vulcan as success irrespective of the funding issues we'd gone on about they should now fall on their swords and go. Remember the words in the Norway debate.....

Having just seen this BBC NEWS | UK | England | Leicestershire | Vulcan bomber grounded at display (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/8134361.stm)

I am more annoyed that the comments attributed make no bloody reference to apology whatsoever.

[forget]

One fact says it all for me. The people ‘running’ the programme have one aircraft to manage. The sole purpose of this aircraft is to appear at air shows. The annual Permit to Fly and C of A renewals fall smack in the middle of the air show season.

If there was any commonsense at all in ‘management’ then someone would have raised an eyebrow and thought, ‘Hmm, risky. Let’s bring the renewals forward to February/March, just in case’. They didn’t – and they’ve exposed themselves, again, as a bunch of dodgy amateurs.

The CAA will have done all it could to help out, I’m sure of that, but this incident will have demolished any remaining goodwill from Gatwick.

[iansmith]

Just caught the tail end of a Waddo Airshow Radio interview (30+miles away - not bad!). "Sean" (Maffet I presume) said that they were hoping that 558 would fly direct to Yeovilton on Thursday or Friday and would display at both Yeovilton and Fairford as originally planned.

Given the inspection and approval requirements, how can this be the case?

[G-CPTN]

they were hoping
and I'm hoping to win the Lottery . . .

[Woff1965]

I went to Waddo yesterday. Travelled up from South Wales on Friday and crashed at a mates house. Got stuck in the traffic into the show for some two and a half hours and didn't get in until gone 12.

The flying programme was indeed very thin and to be honest I only travelled up to see the Vampire, Vulcan and the Strikemasters. I was really suprised that there were no Tornado's in the air however and even the static park was a bit thinner than usual. The weather whilst delightful was only partial compensation for the lack of flying. I treat Waddington as a bit if a practice for RIAT, I am an amateur photographer so I use it to check on display routines by various display teams and to plan my shots in advance. However, if they continue to trim down the display it's just not going to be worth me going next year.

I have to say that no Vulcan was a real disappointment but I can see the CAA's point of view. If they had given a waiver to XH558 and it had pancaked into the crowd not only would they have been vilified, a lot of people could have been killed and an irreplaceable airframe would have been destroyed; I dread to think of what the insurance liabilities would have been if they flew on a waiver and then had a serious accident

The rules are there for a reason, everyone should be aware of them and they are to ensure the safety of not just the crowd but the crew as well. If TVOC knew that the work had not been done they should have had the balls to front up on Friday. No doubt if the CAA had said no flying on Friday, that would still be true on Saturday and Sunday as well, no matter how much they whined about it. Given how important the certification is to them, there is really no excuse for not doing something about it sooner.

[Cricket23]

I am tempted to repeat my post after they missed Biggin last Sunday, but that I don't want to appear smug.

The people running the Vulcan project (or should that be VulCON?) must be become more aware of, and make better use of the commoditity they have. Pretty soon, the 'vulcan effect' will have worn off with the frustrations that are being experienced being translated into people not contributing hard cash to keep hr in the air, and that would be a great shame.

Lots of people have done a great job in getting her into the air, but there does seem to be a certain amount of mis-management.

[hurn]

I have to say that no Vulcan was a real disappointment but I can see the CAA's point of view. If they had given a waiver to XH558 and it had pancaked into the crowd not only would they have been vilified, a lot of people could have been killed and an irreplaceable airframe would have been destroyed; I dread to think of what the insurance liabilities would have been if they flew on a waiver and then had a serious accidentShe's been flying on a 'waiver' for the past year. The CAA gave them a years dispensation with regard to the testing to be done on XM603.
Obviously that didn't happen and the CAA haven't renewed the permit to fly. In reality though, she's no more unsafe now than when she arrived on Thursday.

[chev1]

Why Oh Why couldn't they have at least done fast taxi to nose wheel lift and attempted to give the many thousands there just to see 558 a little back for all the support the clown management have received. I too went today and left a little deflated at the poor ground displays and with a few notable exceptions the very thin air display. Apart from the usual Reds which are always cool and The Lanc (genuinely did bring a tear to my eye when it started up) The Typhoon which was the best display of the day for me. The rest were just ok nothing amazing, sorry just my take on things.

ps. Forgot to say I did go to have a look at 558 but walked away because I was fed up of hearing the bull**** excuses for not displaying....... everyone else's fault and not tvoc's. One of the ground crew was so convinced that it would be flying next week it made me wonder what he knew that nobody else did.... Mmmmmmmm.

[The Swinging Monkey]

chev 1

Ah, you must have spoken to the groundcrew who was instructed to tell everybody that story. On saturday I got a different story, blaming the CAA entirely for the co*k up and yesterday I got another story, laying the blame 100% on the shoulders of Marshalls.

I don't know who is to blame, and to be honest I'm so pi$$ed of with the whole saga I don't care anymore, but I do know that those idiots at the top of the Vulcan tree need a bloody good kick in the na**ers for their compete incompetance and treatment of the public. They could not organise a bloody thing.

Why wasn't Pleming at Waddo yesterday, in person, apologising to the thousands of unhappy people? 'cos he is a total waste of space with no spine, thats why.

Cricket23 has the right phrase VUL-CON because that is what it is, a CON. And I feel conned, as do many others I'm sure. Whatever Waddo paid to get the Vulcan to the show they should demand back, and offer the punters a discount at next years show.

Vulcon to the Sky? The Vulcon Operating Co(n) it is a bloody joke.

[srobarts]

On saturday I got a different story, blaming the CAA entirely for the co*k up and yesterday I got another story, laying the blame 100% on the shoulders of Marshalls.
Blaming the two organisations needed to get them out of this mire is not the wisest move.
Time for some honesty from Mr Pleming.

[Nopax,thanx]

411A

Not quite that easy....being on an Experimental 'N' plate only allows a limited amount of flying in UK airspace and certainly not enough for the Vulcan's planned appearances. You can get up to 28 days' flying in total.

Foreign Aircraft Exemptions | Airworthiness | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=720&pagetype=90&pageid=3932)

[Blacksheep]

In my line of work, if we submitted an ARC application a week before renewal we'd be facing an AOG until the paperwork had been properly dealt with by the local CAA office. If we knew a year in advance that we'd need third party work completed for renewal, Engineering Contracts would have been out getting the relevant contract in place to ensure the work was done at our own expense.

Maybe BAE or Marshals haven't done the structural inspection work, but work costs money and payment would normally come from the party that needs the work done. In this case the CAA, as regulator, identified a source of test material that would satisfy the structural proof testing requirement. It is up to the VT Management to arrange for that test material to be purchased and tested. I can see no reason why BAE or anybody else should perform any work for free. Like my own employer, they're commercial businesses working solely for the benefit of, and answerable to, their shareholders.

[staplefordheli]

Well as has been stated
Why the hell didn't she at least do some taxis near the crowd line or even a fast run down the rway
There was plenty of time to fill where she could have done that and at least made partly up for the disappointment of everyone (including my 10yr old who said not again after last summers fruitless attempts to see her moving)
I used to go to brunty in the days before the clowns got hold of her, and her fast taxis were brilliant and TBH the take off roll and "howl" is what we want to hear I would prefer a guarantee of that every time rather than all these no shows

As for the paperwork, surely someone could predict having a permit run out mid show dates was a recipe for disaster and should have been brought forward to the spring
Components going U/s are one thing but this sound like total incompetence. One wonders how much Waddo knew of this deceit before hand, as I for one would not have gone based on the limited flying display and linesups, had I know she wasn't running and i can guarantee the 90k there on saturday would have also been well down, although given how they get pre booked tickets in these days, it gives less room for folks to cancel which is probably why sunday wasnt a disaster for the organisers
Cant see them getting away with it next year though

[jindabyne]

I've previously had good reason to be hosed-off with the Doctor and some of his team (not the spanners or aircrew), and this debacle now appears to take the biscuit! Tossers.

[411A]

Not quite that easy....being on an Experimental 'N' plate only allows a limited amount of flying in UK airspace

Correct for Experimental, however FAA has a Limited category, which if investigated, would show many military types are thus registered, with the proviso that they are restricted to either special ops or display (IE: airshows).
However, the UKCAA might also require 'conditions'...:}

[kiwibrit]

It may be that the management team are punching above their weight. Digging around, for instance, I have been unable to find what background in aircraft engineering management Andrew Edmondson has.

[Matt Jones]

As I've posted on the TVOC site this whole saga is utterly indefensible, it's a farce and I've long since lost interest. They need continued public donations to ensure their long term survival and at the moment all they're doing is alienating them.

[Winco]

It's just been announced on Lincs Fm that 'they' are hopeful that the paperwork will be signed today and the aircraft will leave Waddo tomorrow. By 'they' I am assuming it's those jokers called TVOC or VTS or whatever name they want to go by! I myself am quite hopeful that I will find a large pot of gold at the bottom of my fairy garden this afternoon, the one that I inhabit with gnomes and goblins.

If it is the case that it gets signed today, then it's an even bigger kick in the nuts for the supporters than before. All this for the sake of a day or two and just a modicum of thought, unbelievable.

My personal feeling is that it's just another publicity stunt and the paperwork won't be complete and 558 will remain at Waddington for a while yet. We will see. Spoke to the organisers last night and they told me that the number of complaints that had been received by them was 'significant' I guess that's a diplomatic way of saying lots.

Lets hope it buggers off back to Bruntingthorpe and stays there. Unless of course we can find a spare Chief Exec, Senior Engineering person, Admin Director and anyone else, who can muster more than a couple of brain cells between them all and run this project properly. The current lot clearly cannot. Infact the the current management couldn't manage the proverbial pi$$ up, even if they all lived in the brewery!!

Why won't the trustees get rid of them all and lets start again?

TW

[staplefordheli]

Well it was that good a weekend that BBC East Midland Today never even mentioned Waddo on todays lunchtime news, despite record crowds.
I get the impression the Vulcan saga has p!!! them off so much now that they wont comment on it either way now.

Real shame as if you look at the Tornado A1 steam loco project that cost more than TVOC to build from new and all the hurdles and paperwork that is needed to run steam on the main line today and yet all achieved, and not one negative story or begging letter saying it was being shipped to the states or else!"!

Real shame that the RAF couldn't have kept her running under BBMF type umbrella with some financial support structure in place.
still I suppose once they got rid of her, that was it

Cant ever see any other "complex" types being entertained for private preservation again and god knows what the CEO of the companies sullied by this sorry affair are thinking now. Not the best PR is it
:eek:

[forget]

It's just been announced on Lincs Fm that 'they' are hopeful that the paperwork will be signed today and the aircraft will leave Waddo tomorrow.

The ‘paperwork’ is hardly likely to be a renewed Permit to Fly and C of A for airshow displays. From what I’ve read here the CAA required materials sampling from XM603. Presumably that hasn’t even been started. In which case the ‘paperwork’, if it ever is signed this side of Xmas, will be a One-Off permit back to Bruntingthorpe.

Dr Pleming will certainly go down in aviation history. Orville and Wilbur would probably have stuck with bicycles if they could have foreseen 558. :sad:

[kiwibrit]

From what I’ve read here the CAA required materials sampling from XM603. Presumably that hasn’t even been started. In which case the ‘paperwork’, if it ever is signed this side of Xmas, will be a One-Off permit back to Bruntingthorpe.

I have been puzzled by the suggestion that the permit to fly could be nodded through whilst the outcome of the sampling was pending, too.

[side salad]

No more money from me, not until changes at the top are made. :*

[SFCC]

I trust that the Waddington Airshow Committee haven't paid this shower of shoite for displaying?

[chev1]

The member of ground crew I spoke to who's name I will keep to myself said that getting 558 out of Waddo wasn't a problem and that they would simply call it a "test flight". It sounds like some of the spannermen are falling into the way of the management, sad really cos they had earned a great deal of respect for the work they had done. Mind you I did notice a few posers with black overalls swanning around 558 and ignoring the crowd as well. Sadly that's me done with 558, shame really because she was part of my life for 7 years and was I actually quite chuffed when she was back in the air, oh well.

[kwh]

...elsewhere this week? If so, and if this is as wildly unrealistic/impossible/fanciful/incredible as people here seem to think it is, then what would you say to somebody wooed to one of these airshows and convinced to part with cash on the promise that the Vulcan will display, unless something unforseen prevents it? And if they went to the police, alleging that they had been defrauded out of their gate money because TVOC knew or should have known a week in advance that they were never going to be allowed to display as long as they had holes in their backsides, what defence would you mount for TVOC?

[Nopax,thanx]

Chev

You can only fly with a Permit in place. The usual procedure is to get a Permit to Test as a first step, usually following restoration or importation. A Permit to Test is also needed if an aircraft has had a Permit to Fly expired for more than 12 months. If 558's Permit has run out, they need another one. It will not get air under its wheels any other way, except on jacks in the hangar.

No matter how much fuss there is, the CAA will not let the aircraft fly until they are satisfied. They have only their own regulations to satisfy, commercial interests and public feeling do not enter into the equation.

Trust me, I know.........:ugh:

[mark36]

Vulcan Permit renewal Update (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=581&z=1)


Just posted on the official site.Make up you own minds.
Mods if not allowed please remove


Edit: It's font size is almost unreadable. See below that I have taken it from the size and re-sized it.

[hurn]

As I said earlier in the thread, surely Marshalls must have some responsibility for this. And so it proved.

I just hope this can be sorted without further fuss and we can move on.

[andrewmcharlton]

Doesn't that just say it all. Take someone else's word for it that we can get around doing it on time despite knowing for months and still "launching" without any clue it would be declined.

Imbeciles.

The sole raison d'etre is to fly at air displays and their funding requirements, however true or otherwise they are, are based on being at said airshows.

I can probably write the script now for the next pass the hat appeal.

[pulse1]

It doesn't look very hopeful for Yeovilton next Saturday then?

[Winco]

When your sole job in life is to ensure that your aircraft is ready for display at an airshow, you check, check and check again that all of the necessary paperwork is in place and everything is OK (just like Pleming told us on the TV last week) How wrong can you be?

It would appear from the statement that the fault lies squarely with MA (no big surprise there then) but the responsibility still lies with Pleming and his bunch of chroney directors for not checking for themselves with the CAA that everything was on course and running fine. What else does Pleming have to do for God's sake? Does he make the teas? wash the pots? It's his number one job and priority and he failed, miserably!

It doesn't look good for Yeovilton next week, and if it fails to get to and display at fairford, it must surely signal the end of the project. How can it survive with such losses of income? One thing is certain, the British public will not support it financially ever again under this management.

Pleming, thank you for your apology. It's a shame it's taken you only 4 days to do it, but for what it's worth (and it's not worth much) thank you anyway. As forget says, you will certainly go down in aviation history for sure. Unfortunately, it won't be for anything good.

And to airsound, who has gone very deep and very silent: where are you?
What is your latest defence strategy for the good doctor?? or have you at last seen the light maybe?

chev 1
It simply shows the lack of understanding on the part of those groundcrew who think you just take an aircraft, without a P to F and get it airborne under the guise of a 'test flight' - what rubbish. You cannot, FACT. It just shows what a bunch of amatures they really are.

The Winco

[NutLoose]

This Phleming, the Engineering Director and the Chief Engineer , indeed the rest of the managment team need to resign, Again they are blaming other people for their incompetance, they knew it was not going to fly yet did nothing to disuade or inform those that were paiying out hard cash in the current climate to travel to the show just to see it fly when they knew it would not happen, they then should go.

I have full support for the rest of the people that give their time for free, and the engineers that work on the aircraft.

BUT the management and Chief Engineer should resign!

There one role is to ensure this aircraft funded by the public to displaay to the public at shows is available to do this, neither of which has happened on more than one occasion. You have more chance of Amy Whitehouse turning up to perform than the Vulcan under the management of these peoiple.

[airsound]

Thank you, Mark 36, for publishing Robert Pleming’s message.
Vulcan To The Sky News (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=581&z=1)
That message was, of course, published with the approval of Marshall Aerospace. It confirms what Eddie Forrester said on Saturday, quoted in danohagan’s post #2508.
it is NOT, REPEAT NOT the fault of anyone in VTS management despite what you may read on internet forums

What Pobert Pleming’s message does is to add more substance to that. In particular, he says
The approved Engineering Authority for XH558 is Marshall of Cambridge Aerospace, which is responsible for all aspects of its airworthiness, including the application for the renewal of the Permit to Fly, due on 3rd July.(My bold)

In simple terms, Marshall Aerospace is , effectively, the operator of XH558. VTST can only do anything to the aircraft, including fly it, on direct authorisation from Marshall Aerospace.

Basically, that was what the many VTST people at Waddington, volunteers and staff, were telling anyone who wanted to know. As I tried to explain in my post #2510, I was part of that extremely difficult operation. And over the whole of the weekend, there were very few air show visitors who didn’t feel sympathetic towards the whole sad situation once they had been told the proper facts. The only thing the team wasn’t doing was mentioning Marshalls by name.

This now demonstrates that many people on this and other forums, who hide behind a cloak of anonymity, have grossly misrepresented the actions of the VTST team. Many posters have been particularly critical, not to say insulting, to Robert Pleming and Andrew Edmondson. I look forward to seeing those posters’ retractions and apologies in their next posts.


sean
airsound
commentator for Vulcan XH558

[forget]

I say again ........

One fact says it all for me. The people ‘running’ the programme have one aircraft to manage. The sole purpose of this aircraft is to appear at air shows. The annual Permit to Fly and C of A renewals fall smack in the middle of the air show season.

Responsibility. Robert Pleming and Andrew Edmondson.

[Sook]

The annual Permit to Fly and C of A renewals fall smack in the middle of the air show season.

That's just an unfortunate coincidence. The weather required for the test flying was always going to be more likely in the summer and that means the Permit to Fly was issued in the summer months. I doubt it was planned that way.

[jindabyne]

airsound,

I disagree. If you choose to PM/e-mail me, I'll tell you why - my views aren't allowable on this forum.

[NutLoose]

No retraction here, they allowed people to travel to the show and waste their money knowing full well that the Permit would have expired, end of the day they are in charge of this whole farce and had the opportunity to put it right via the media, the also fund Marshalls work to the aircraft ( who hold the Design Authority) and it was up to them to ensure the Aircraft was both available and ready for the display season, the one reason they are employed by the public donations to carry out....... THIS THEY FAILED TO DO and as such should go and a proper management be put in place that can and will have the competance to do the task in hand..

"The level of detail required by CAA and the need for endorsement by BAE Systems meant that this could not be provided without significant additional work."

then that work should have been carried out..... It is not as if they were unaware of what was reqd and when it was required to be done by!

Why has this all drivel been relayed by some person that stands on a dias with a mike in his hand and not by the senior management of the VVTG ?

are they scared to meet and speak to the people that employ them, namely the Joe Public.........

RESIGN!

[Bob on the Ground]

Unbelievable!!

No correct that - entirely believable from this bunch.

From the announcements made at Waddington (3?) over the course of the saturday it was categorically not TVOC's fault and they were not to blame for the oversight.

Apart from the oversight of MANAGING the project effectively of course.

Or the oversight to perhaps let the punters who were planning to travel to Waddington to make up their own minds whether it was worth taking the risk that XH558 might not fly by publicising this on the Friday. No doubt the crowd numbers would have been down but they would have earned some respect form the public (particularly me) if they had been honest, rather than the disdain felt now.

I still have yet to see XH558 in the air. I have now given up chasing her around the country only to be disappointed. If I ever see her flying it will be because she happens to be somewhere that I am visiting rather than me making any efforts to go and see her.

[kiwibrit]

Bemusing.

According to Vulcan to the sky news (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=581&z=1)
This report does not need to contain the results of the inspections, only the reasons for them, how they would be carried out or alternatively mitigated.ie the CAA are not yet satisfied that the MA explanation of why the checks can be got round before a Permit To Fly can be issued.

There is no question that XH558 is in any way structurally unsafe.Since, as yet, the CAA is not satisfied with MA's explanation, there clearly is a question, at least for now, in the CAA's mind.

[kiwibrit]

In simple terms, Marshall Aerospace is , effectively, the operator of XH558. VTST can only do anything to the aircraft, including fly it, on direct authorisation from Marshall Aerospace.

I was a member of an engineering authority. The fleet flew with our authorization; but we did not dream of calling ourselves the operators.

[airsound]

Nutloose - you just don't get it, do you.

VTST cannot tell Marshalls what to do. What they did do was to remind them on several documented occasions what was required before the Permit to Fly could be reissued. As Dr Pleming's message suggests, during the week running up to the show, they were assured more than once that there would not be a problem with the reissue. In fact, VTST specifically asked if it was practical to let the aircraft launch from Brize. Once again they were reassured.

And as far as not letting people know is concerned, this didn't all finally crystallise until late Friday evening. And even then, at that stage, it wasn't seen as definitely fatal to XH558's flying appearance. A senior member of VTST staff even went down to Gatwick on Saturday, hoping to be able to pick up the Permit. When he got there, he found that the CAA were still unable to issue the Permit.

And, as I have said before - no one in VTST is blaming the CAA for doing their job.

airsound
who is as you've noted, merely
some person that stands on a dias (sic) with a mike (sic) in his hand

PS jindabyne - happy to receive a pm. Or an email, if you want. It's not hard to find my email. I'm not anonymous here.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Because the link VTS link was so small I have copied it as is and adjusted the font to a size we can all read.


Vulcan Permit renewal Update
Monday, July 06, 2009 -

Following the announcement on Saturday that Vulcan XH558 would be unable to display at the RAF Waddington Airshow last weekend due to issues with the renewal of the aircraft’s annual Permit to Fly, the Vulcan to the Sky Trust (VTST) is doing all it can to ensure that XH558 returns to flight as soon as possible.
Robert Pleming, VTST Chief Executive: “On behalf of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust, I would like to apologise unreservedly for the huge disappointment felt by very many people, some of whom had traveled great distances, at the absence of the Vulcan from the flying display. The events leading to the cancellation of the Vulcan’s displays are deeply regrettable, and we will do everything we can to prevent this happening again at Waddington.”
Vulcan XH558 flies as a civilian aircraft, registration G-VLCN, under Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) regulations governing the operation of ex-military aircraft. The approved Engineering Authority for XH558 is Marshall of Cambridge Aerospace, which is responsible for all aspects of its airworthiness, including the application for the renewal of the Permit to Fly, due on 3rd July.
Following the success of the Pledge campaign in March, VTST contracted with Marshall Aerospace (MA) for the work needed to renew the aircraft’s Permit, including the annual service, and the test flight. However, during the original Major Service, a number of structural inspections were deferred and it was agreed to carry these out on BAE Systems-owned Vulcan XM603 at Woodford. The CAA required these inspections to be completed by the time of renewal of the Permit.
It has not proved possible to carry out these inspections and following a meeting with CAA, MA agreed to prepare a justification for a further extension to the inspections. In the week prior to the expiry of the existing permit, MA remained confident that the Permit revalidation would be obtained in time, to the extent that a joint decision was made to launch XH558 from RAF Brize Norton on Thursday 2nd July to fly to RAF Waddington for the Airshow Press Preview.
Unfortunately, on Friday 3rd July, MA were informed by the CAA that the justification for deferring the inspections was inadequate and that the CAA would require a much more detailed explanation before the Permit would be renewed. This report would also need to be underwritten by BAE Systems. (This report does not need to contain the results of the inspections, only the reasons for them, how they would be carried out or alternatively mitigated. There is no question that XH558 is in any way structurally unsafe.)
The level of detail required by CAA and the need for endorsement by BAE Systems meant that this could not be provided without significant additional work. Despite discussions between MA, the CAA and BAE Systems that ran on late into Friday evening and the following morning, there was no mechanism found that could have allowed the Vulcan to display legally over the weekend. Since then, MA have had a team working to generate and gain approval of the required report, ready for review by BAE Systems and submission to the CAA.
VTST does not yet have a firm date from CAA on when the Vulcan will be allowed to fly again, but it has been led to believe that the delay will be days rather than any longer.
XH558 remains fully serviceable at RAF Waddington.
A further update will be issued when more is known.
For more information on this Press Release, please contact:
VTST - Richard Clarke:
07714 898548 / ([email protected])[email protected] ([email protected])

[andrewmcharlton]

Airsound,

I'm sorry you think that it's all MA and not VTST. The bootom line is they run this "business" and have simply failed miserably, again.

MA are clearly responsible for many things but the client, VTST have to carry the can and as CEO Dr P has to take responsibility. However, given that the a/c and the trust are already mortgaged to the hilt to MA forever they doubtless call the shots instead of the other way round.

I wanted to believe that they had "learned lessons" about many things but its patently untrue.

Their PR is yet again woeful and their disregard for the paying public is astonishing given the utter claptrap issued about the Vulcan factor and their success of delivering a flying Vulcan.

This issue hasn't simply arisen out of the blue and if I ran any of my businesses by failing to have the key ingredient fit for purpose (and including paperwork) I would be bust in a wet weekend.

For once the trustees should grow a spine, call this to account and act instead of the usual sycophantic ramblings. How much of a hole is this going to put in the finances for the next whipround?

Time for Dr P to take the rap and resign, now.

[airsound]

andrewmcharlton

the utter claptrap issued about the Vulcan factor
Perhaps you weren't at Farnborough last year. Or at several other shows. Including Cosford this year, where the show exceeded last year's "capacity" crowd of 54,000 by 4,000. Because of that they closed the gates at 1230, and had to turn people round on the motorway, and refund a lot of prepaid tickets. OK the wx was good, but it's been good before. That was the Vulcan effect. I know - I was there.

the utter claptrap issued about .... their success of delivering a flying Vulcan.
So what have they delivered, if not a flying Vulcan? That's exactly what they have delivered, despite the efforts of all the naysayers and doom mongers.

airsound

[NutLoose]

Nutloose - you just don't get it, do you.

VTST cannot tell Marshalls what to do. What they did do was to remind them on several documented occasions what was required before the Permit to Fly could be reissued. As Dr Pleming's message suggests, during the week running up to the show, they were assured more than once that there would not be a problem with the reissue. In fact, VTST specifically asked if it was practical to let the aircraft launch from Brize. Once again they were reassured.

And as far as not letting people know is concerned, this didn't all finally crystallise until late Friday evening. And even then, at that stage, it wasn't seen as definitely fatal to XH558's flying appearance. A senior member of VTST staff even went down to Gatwick on Saturday, hoping to be able to pick up the Permit. When he got there, he found that the CAA were still unable to issue the Permit.

And, as I have said before - no one in VTST is blaming the CAA for doing their job.

airsound

AS Marshalls is Being paid to carry out these tasks then yes you can make sure it is done and failing that take them to court...........

You still do not get it do you, the VOC is responsible at the end of the day for both ensuring that the work has been carried out and then when the work has not been ensuring it is. the buck stops with the management of the Aircraft........ they have a duty to the public that are paying their wages and for the Aircraft, this they have AGAIN failed to do so should resign and a stronger management team appointed that will get things done.

The biggest failing was not announcing earlier that there may be a chance it would not be able to fly and giving those that are paying their wages the opportunity to decide whether to travel of not.....

And 4 days to draft a letter blaming everyone else for their short comings, as I said before, have the inspection issues been resolved? or are you still trying to defer them, in which case how can you say the aircraft is Servicable at Waddington with the CAA saying it still needs these things done, and hence no permit as of yet??

RESIGN

[andrewmcharlton]

I was at Farnborough, I was also at 4 days when it went tech and I can live with that.

However, that is history and the fact is it's on the ground through failure to carry out required checks and testing and whichever way you splice it it is not currently able to fly.

They allowed people to travel, incur substantial costs when they knew it could not display. They have waited days to publish a statement which is no compensation to anyone who has paid good money in difficult times and they still look to blame someone else.

I echo Nutloose and everyone else's remarks, it's a bloody shambles and nobody is prepared to take responsibility. You talk about naysayers and doommongers and if you like you can count me in them, but not one of them has tried to stop her flying just continually questioned those in charge and their efforts, this is yet another clear demonstration of their total ineptitude at running a public attraction that the public pay for.

I note your commentary at Cosford I think at the same naysayers and doommongers which I think is uncalled for given that many of them, me included were there to support it and pay good money for the priviledge. I see you're now signing off as their commentator as opposed to a simple supporter and well wisher so I can't expect any objectivity or impartiality.

Imagine going to an F1 race and discovering they can't race for lack of a license or a concert without a singer? Stupid isn't it but it seems in the context of 558 everything and everyone is blameless and forgiven. When you look through the rose tinted spectacles be sure to notice the plane is still on the ground and thousands are upset, angry and disappointed at being let down, again.

[coughing corner]

Mr Airsound, you'd perhaps like to review
CAP733
Chapter 5
Section 1.2

First sentence tells you all you need to know, and, at who's feet any 'blame' lies. It shouldn't come as a great surprise. The second part of the para just sort of emphahsises a few elements too. I's crossed, T's dotted, that sort of thing.

[GeeRam]

In simple terms, Marshall Aerospace is , effectively, the operator of XH558

Huh...?

I thought MA were the contracted, appointed licensed engineering support to TVOC as decreed as suitable by the CAA/BAe?
The OC in TVOC standing for 'operating company' IIRC, therefore as everyone with some sense on here rightly points out, that's where the buck stops.

[srobarts]

I thought MA were the contracted, appointed licensed engineering support to TVOC as decreed as suitable by the CAA/BAe?
The OC in TVOC standing for 'operating company' IIRC, therefore as everyone with some sense on here rightly points out, that's where the buck stops.
Spot on GeeRam
As a born again cynic I can't help but wonder if Marshalls are still owed rather alot of money. We were told earlier this year when the fundraising was going on that Marshalls was one of those who hadn't been paid. The sum of £1.4m was quoted as being owed to Waltons(the landlords) and Marshalls.
I hope that Mr Pleming hasn't exhausted the goodwill of Marshalls in working for the promise of payment.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
No retraction here, they allowed people to travel to the show and waste their money knowing full well that the Permit would have expired,

Reply
Spot On - Nutloose!!!

We drove the 74 miles on saturday to Waddo - what for??

Not much at all really, But we cannot complain as we ALLOWED for all this and elected to sit in a field for nowt!!

Even that was merely impossible as the MOD & civilian police were acting like they worked for the 'God Squad' blocking every country lane off upto 4 miles away with cones totally OTT policing.

But I didn't expect to be told that the reason was because of the CAA not permitting the display!!!

We didn't know anything until about 14.45 when the news was spread round to everyone's dissapointment, The FRA Falcons & Hawks had just finished their display.

2 Of my friends paid to go into the show, I have spoken to one and he says that may be the last time he goes to the show??

He came home dissapointed, And said that they were told on the coach at about 10.30 am that XH558 was not running.

If they had known earlier, He said that the coach may have turned round and gone back up the A15??

It was the quitest Airshow that I have ever been to, An average of 1 display every 45 minutes.

We only really went for the Vulc, The FRA display & the Typhoon, But expected to see a Herc a Seaking & the Sentry flying.

But nothing in that category.

The Typhoon was good to excellent I would say, But not a long display compared to the others.

ELVINGTON - sprung to my mind??

Waddington is turning into another Elvington which was once a good day out with a good and sometimes excellent static & flying display.

But over the last few years until Elvington finishing, It was not worth paying 14.00 to go thru the gate to see just a handful of training aircraft.

Obviously XH558 has to be run by the book cover, But surely the CAA could have either sent somebody or arranged for certification to be done on the saturday??

I don't know nor have had time to read the 'Exact' chain of events so I am only asking the questions??

I was told that XH558 group would lose 8,000 pound a day for the non display flying??

And on a seperate note I was told that Paul Millikin didn't want to be involved with the new group since his last flight in the 1990's fearing the potential problems within the operation.

Everybody was looking forward to the 4th July it came and went - And we a 'few thousand' of us went home with Red faces!!!

Not just because of the weather but because we had failed to watch XH 558 do what she is made to do - Fly.

These things happen, But typically they happen on a warm sunny day the 1st day of flight op's!!!

And likewise if the weather had been rubbish then vice versa.

There are hardly enough Airshows in the North now, And to have dissapointments like saturday just makes everybody concerned upset, Dissapointed & Angry.

I look forward to seeing XH558 at the next AVAILABLE Airshow in the north of England hum!!!!

For every 8 airshows in the south there are 2 in the north.

So choice is limited.

And Elvington - I have no idea what's happening there??

Ask Mr Ken C.

[Winco]

airsound

As you can see, the only people around here who don't get it are yourself and that bunch of incompetant fools managing this project.

It's quite fitting that you should pick up the point
'during the week running up to the show, they were assured more than once that there would not be a problem with the reissue'
and that is the sort of point that YOU don't get.

Take a look at the CAA website. It clearly states that the CAA require at least 15 working days to process all this stuff. And Pleming spent the week running up to Waddo asking MA is all was OK ?? Don't you think he should have perhaps picked up the phone a asked the CAA if everything was OK or are you not able to understand that?

What about the edit from the CAA 12 months ago about the NDT checks on 603. Did you and Pleming think that the CAA might just forget about it and let it go??

Your friend conned a great many people this past weekend, and many will never forgive him for that. It was shameful and disgraceful and yet you appear to condone it, continuing to blame everyone else.

I should start looking for a new job airsound, 'cos i can't see your services as the official Vulcan commentator bein g needed soon.

Winco

[bjcc]

Winco

The CAA's web site clearly contains the following

"Following feedback from industry, the Applications and Approvals Department is delighted to announce the introduction of a new service designed to assist customers with urgent applications. To make an application under the service, please complete form Special Same Day Application Form."

It's on this page.

Permits to Fly | Airworthiness | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1413&pagetype=90)

I'm afraid that rather kills off your point about the dates of application, and your implication that the permit could never have been complated in time, as it apparently could have been completed on the day of application.

I really don't see what you are trying to achive, although, to be honest it is starting to look like a vendetta. You have made the same points numerous times, and I'm sure nothing will sway you from your opinion. But for what it's worth, apart from the possibility of poor communication with the public, VTTS/VOC seem to have done little wrong here.

There are questions that it would be good to have answered, (good becuase it's not a world ending event, as opposed to required, which is what you seem to think they should be) but shouting and screaming like you are is hardly going to make that happen quicker.

[hunterboy]

Airsound...you said VTST cannot tell Marshalls what to do


Don't VOC pay Marshalls? Doesn't that make VOC the customer?
I wonder if perhaps a change of leadership is needed at VOC to get a fresh approach to the running of this project. I doubt the National Lottery are too impressed either.

[andrewmcharlton]

BJCC,

That's all well and dandy except they were not compliant with the requirements which were clearly set down. Try going for a same day passport and telling them your not holding all the documents, gues what, they just say no faster and charge you more money for the priviledge.

VTTS/VOC seem to have done little wrong here

That is apart from being an aircraft operator in the airshow arean and haven't got a permit, can't fly to their only market, blew money they can't afford to blow and mislead and let down their financial suporters and fail to tell everyone honestly and openly why.

possibility of poor communication with the public

Possibility? Four days of silence then their statement; meanwhile, back on planet earth...

it's not a world ending event

If the only purpose to your existence is to display aircraft at airshows it's pretty close for them at least.

[Bye]

ironic really how quick the VTST management are to claim success and all the plaudits when she flies,

yet when she doesn't its someone elses fault.

so all the achievements to get 558 back in the air are clearly the achievements of MA and nobody else then.

So what do TVOC actually do then??????

Oh apart from keeping the hangar clean and emotionally blackmailing the public for money every year.

not a bad job that for the salary.

and this is really sticking my head above the parapet.

it seems that the aircraft often "goes Tech" so i have to wonder just how safe and sound this aircraft actually is to fly at all.

How long before one of these minor faults that seem to happen so often turns flight critical during a display.

now thats what i call doom and naresayinghttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/46.gif

Geoff ( aka Joe Public )

should of added, that with 2.6 million quid sitting in the bank, VTST could of bought 603 from Bae-systems, chopped err up themselves, kept all the bits they needed and had a nice cockpit for the "village", and done the checks they needed for the permit.

or is that too obvious ??

[papa_sierra]

Re Marshalls - Is this not like slagging off your surgeon before going in for open heart surgery.

With all the vitriol flying about, I would not be suprised to see Marshalls terminating the agreement with TVOC. Then what ??

[nacluv]

The rights and wrongs of the MA/TVOC/CAA sign-off are well discussed here, and I am not going to add to that.

I didn't go to Waddo, and I'm bloody glad that I didn't, given the reports here and elsewhere. I probably won't go again unless there is concrete evidence of improvement in the coming years.

My beef is with the PR. OK - a monumental all-time cock-up has occurred, and yes, you have an airfield full of expectant paying customers. A bit (well, quite a lot) of quick thinking is clearly called for. What do you do?

The answer is 'SOMETHING'.

Not 'NOTHING'.

As had been alluded to already, there would seem to have been nothing to stop a ground run, or two, to give the punters SOMETHING. Why was this not considered/done? By the sound of it, the schedule was hardly bursting, so finding a slot could not have been difficult and the wx was hardly unsuitable. Did they decide that they could save a bob or two on the fuel?

The punters could have had the noise, the howl, the ground-shaking reverberation, the barn-door aero-braking. I.e. SOMETHING.

A piss-poor show. By any standard.

[NutLoose]

From the release that took 4 days to concoct

Quote:
Robert Pleming, VTST Chief Executive: “On behalf of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust, I would like to apologise unreservedly for the huge disappointment felt by very many people, some of whom had traveled great distances, at the absence of the Vulcan from the flying display. The events leading to the cancellation of the Vulcan’s displays are deeply regrettable, and we will do everything we can to prevent this happening again at Waddington.”


Seems like this inept Chief Exec still sees all of the other venues it is attending as fair game to cancel.

He should step down now.

[Bye]

anyway, why is he apologising for something he claims is not his fault ??????

must be the Gordon brown school of politics :oh:

Geoff

[Blacksheep]

I'm sure I'm not alone in now being confused about who actually owns the aircraft and bears responsibility for operating the aircraft. Which organization is the operator as per CAP 632 in this VTTS/TVOC/Marshals set-up? What are the functions of the CEO and Engineering Manager of the Trust and for what is the Trust actually responsible? Are Marshals really delegated and contracted as both the operator and the maintenance organization?

Under CAP 632 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP632.PDF) an aircraft owner wishing to fly an aircraft under a Permit to Fly is responsible for setting up an operational organization and producing the Organizational Control Manual (refer esp. to Annexe A), . Some or all of these functions can be delegated and/or sub-contracted (ref. CAP 632 Ch 4 Para 3), but overall responsiblity for both the operation of the aircraft and its continuing airworthiness remains with the owner/operator.

In simple terms, Marshall Aerospace is , effectively, the operator of XH558. VTST can only do anything to the aircraft, including fly it, on direct authorisation from Marshall AerospaceMy own original understanding was that the Trust was the owner, TVOC was delegated the responsibility for the operational organization and Marshals were contracted for maintenance and as the design authority. Are we now to understand that Marshals are responsible for flight operations, maintenance and design and neither the Trust nor TVOC have any responsibility for anything?

Operator and Accountable Management; VTTS Trust or Marshals; which is it?

[NutLoose]

The ownership is on the permit as, so they are indeed the operators

Owner Details

Ownership Status

Registered Owners:VULCAN TO THE SKY TRUST
BRUNTINGTHORPE PROVING GROUND
BRUNTINGTHORPE
LUTTERWORTH
LE17 5QS

CofA / Permit:Permit to FlyValidity Expiry:02/07/09

[GeeRam]

Don't VOC pay Marshalls?

Err.......:E

[NutLoose]

which may be the crux of the matter.........

[Winco]

bjcc

Yes, I am well aware of what the CAA site says, but you ommitted a couple of things, such as it costs another £400.00!! but lets not worry too much about that now.

The big thing that you have ommitted is the fact that this bunch of amatures did NOT satisfy the edit from the CAA about NDT checks when the original permit was issued 12 months ago. It was NOT an oversight, it was just ignored, and based on that one point alone, the aircraft was NEVER going to get a permit prior to Waddington was it?

A vendetta?? maybe you are correct now. But I am sick to death of watching this iconic project being run by a bunch of incompetant fools who are patently out of their depth big time. This weekend has been a classic example of that.

When Pleming and the others at the top go, and a management team is appointed who know a little bit about what they are doing then I, like thousands of others, will stop bleating about it and start donating again. Until then I fear the project is doomed and that is all down to sheer incompetance frankly. Or don't you agree??

[NutLoose]

Well said, I had a reminder for my last pledge arrive in the post even though I had tried to sort it online and I have now written to them asking how I stand legally as to paying it, I have given them a couple of hundred pound in the past, but no more until these Stumbling bumbling fools depart

[Matt Jones]

Andrew, you're sentiments are so close to mine I think we were seperated at birth :ok::):)

[ANAPROP]

Doesn't look like it's going anywhere today, covers/blanks still on/in and no apparent activity...

[Cypherus]

Don’t doubt it has not moved and probably will not for several more days at least, According too the release issued by VTST member on another venue, the CAA was not happy with the proposals being put forward that would allow the TVOC to continue to fly the A/C on a fresh Permit unless they answered a number of questions, he was not specific as to what these were but alluded too the time scale in preparing this report as the major obstacle, not the actual failure to conduct the specific work required initially that had been deferred from the original major now over 12 months ago.

The NDT testing on 603 as I understand it was to have been undertaken on major components in conjunction with the scrapping of 603, an airframe that steadfastly refuses too co-operate and remains intact, if now short of a few parts.

That this NDT work has not happened meant that the Permit was never going to be issued, something that the TVOC management team was well aware of yet on the face of it did little or nothing to accelerate the programme and allow the deferred reports to be written up and submitted to the relevant authority, that they allowed this situation too come about without making alternative arrangements is crass in the extreme, as usual they have not seen fit too comment on the matter apart from having Phleming issue yet another public apology neatly diverting attention too everyone involved but themselves.

However is anyone here at all surprised at there attitude and is this not exactly what the public has been complaining about since the TVOC began operating, total lack of transparency, bumbling management structure, poor performance of certain members of the management team and the exhibition of utter contempt for the public who too date have given so freely of there money.

That this sorry situation has come about lays squarely at the feet of the current trustees, it is they that need to be addressed on this matter and they alone that can do anything constructive too put in place a management team that can direct this operation in the manner required to ensure an efficient team geared to display XH558 for the foreseeable future.

[eddief]

Over the years, I have often popped in here to see what some of the rest of the world has to say... and it has always been quite motivating.

I can sit here, knackered & stressed at the end of yet another long day but the misinformed, hostile attacks on VTST just give me that extra kick I need.

You just keep on stoking my fire with your vitriolic rantings & we'll keep on funding the world's only flying Vulcan and a team that might not always be perfect but that has achieved something most of you will never even dream of.

Oh - and it isn't just me, there's another 10,000+ of us that also don't share your point of view. Some got seriously scarred by last weekend's screw-up but most of them now appreciate that 'black & white' rarely applies to complex project-management & decades old aircraft.

[srobarts]

Eddief, to quote your own words some six years ago on the Concorde thread...

Like everyone on this forum, I certainly don't want to fuel any angst or frustration but I am desparately keen to find out the *facts* so that I can try to understand what has happened - God knows, I'm going to be a whole lot happier if somebody can convince me that this was actually necessary.

Some straight honest talking from Pleming and the team would go along way...

[deltapapa]

a quick couple of points,

My understanding, it's not NDT, NON destructive testing that needs carrying out on 603 its DT, Destructive testing hence they can't do it on 603. [though I am not sure to what extent this testing is required]

RP is chairperson of the VTST aswell as CEO of same company, unless things have changed recently.

And saying they will do what they can so this doesn't happen again at Waddington isn't saying a lot really as the new permit will now run out after Waddington airshow in future years, assuming it stays on the 1st w/e of July.

I may also be splitting hairs but it wasn't 10,000+ people donating it was 10,000+ donations - I know a few who donated many more times than once.

[gsa]

eddie f, I'm one of the 10,000 who wholly agrees with you!And I think it should be painted White, a Trunk put on the front before a oxy torch is taken to it.

should of added, that with 2.6 million quid sitting in the bank, VTST could of bought 603 from Bae-systems, chopped err up themselves, kept all the bits they needed and had a nice cockpit for the "village", and done the checks they needed for the permitIf they do have £2.6m in the bank then the Papers should be told to stop there "We've no money to pay our bills Please support the Vulcan campain"

[Matt Jones]

Eddie, I was one of the 10,000 but no longer. My confidence, support and passion has been drained to the extent that there will be no more financial support from me................ever. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Initially it seemed to be run very well and to their credit they achieved something momentus and remarkable but over the last 18 months they seem to have lurched from one crisis to the next displaying woefully inpet project management and a steadfast refusal to keep the public informed. Lessons are not being learned.

I hope that if it can't make Yeovilton this weekend that they give us more notice.

[JW411]

Now I heard a story several months ago that the plans to scrap XM603 at Woodford had been put on the backburner since it still has a lot of fuel in it and it's not going to be easy to get it out.

I was told that one organisation had told BAe that they would happily do the job - for £150,000.

If true, that would make your eyes water!

[andrewman]

Your right about BAE wanting the fuel removed from XM603 prior 2 anything being done with it, in fact fuel being kept in the tanks back when it was kept in ground running condition is the reason that work was stopped on the aircraft at that time.

Someone in health and safety went mad that the aircraft was being kept with fuel in the tanks decided this was unsafe and that was the end of the aircraft being kept in running condition, to make matters worse someone else then made the decision the ladders the team working on XM603 had used were unsafe and all work to stop on the aircraft :(

As for XH558 well what can you say, its a total farce you would have thought that at Waddington they would have taxied the aircraft at the very least, many people have asked why this did not happen but as per usual no explanation is forthcoming and a quick look at the website tonight shows no update on the permit to fly issue, for crying out loud do TVOC actually understand the meaning of communication they are taking the publics money therefore have a responsibility to keep the public informed of whats being done with that money, still one thing TVOC are good at is not replying to e-mails I have tried 3 times to inform them the webpage that allows you to enter the monthly lottery type thing to raise funds does not work and guess what no reply and no working webpage, I know someone who owns 3 shops he wrote to TVOC to try and find out about having collection tins for the project in his stores and never even got a response, I've given a fair amount over the years and done my own small bit to try and get others to donate but not anymore I'm fed up with it all.

[PPRuNe Pop]

eddief,

Your little rant is your own, it is not shared by as many as you would like to think.

No-one to my knowledge has ever questioned the ability and dedication of those who have worked so hard on the project. That, has NEVER been in question.

However, please do not try to defend the indefensible. Unless you have been living on another planet the root cause here at this moment in time is that a major blunder occurred that rocked the project once more. And it is all too simple really. Someone did not do their job! The paperwork as I have said is the 'soul' of the aeroplane. Without it, it will not fly. Wild ideas have been espoused about how 'deals' have been done etc., This is all about peeing in the wind.

At one time I operated 27 aircraft, all with commercial a CofA, all with AOC's and all with quality engineering back-up. This aircraft is AOG! No proper paperwork, no-one seemingly chasing those responsible and everyone guessing when the CAA will 'perform.' They won't, not until all the i's and t's are dotted and crossed.

So please don't high horse your theories and cover ups. Accept that there is a major mistake. The managers of the project are TVOC the engineers are Marshall's

We defend the posters here just as we rebuke them if they step over the line but right now that has not been necessary.

The management need to get out from whatever they are under.

[side salad]

er gov, me MOT has run out but i know the motor is ok, can i drive it for a few months until i get around to getting the bit of paper?:ugh:

[Treble one]

Eddief

First of all, many thanks for your critically timed financial support in helping the Vulcan do what we all want to see her do-FLY.

However, I am one of the 10000+ who helped keep her in the air this year, and I will not continue to donate to this project with the current management team in charge.

The longer DrP and his team preside over the sort of disaster which happened last weekend, the more the credibility of the project suffers. I ask you, how are you going to attract the new sponsorship and donations required to keep the aircraft in the air year on year when something as critical for the business a PtF renewal is as badly botched as this was?

What this project requires now is new leadership, with someone who has the degree of credibility required to restore public confidence and bring in the cash needed to keep 558 in the air.

Anybody got DT's phone number?

[JW411]

So could it be that the owners of XH558 asked BAe Systems some time ago if they could have some bits from XM603 for Destructive Testing when it got scrapped. BAe did not have a problem with that for all they wanted to do was to get rid of a dead Vulcan covered in green gunge parked outside their Woodford empire and the bits would have been going to the scrapyard anyway.

Then BAe discovered that it was going to cost serious money to scrap XM603 so they were suddenly not in a hurry and the bits required for testing are now not going to be available for some time (unless someone meets the bill).

I last drove past XM603 on 23 June and it was still in one piece albeit looking quite sad.

Someone should have seen this coming.

[BEagle]

Eddief, many thanks for all your exceptional support for '558. Without your invaluable and amazing generosity, the aircraft would never have flown this year - and probably would never do so again.

Thank you also for the communiques you've posted on the VTTS website - everyone must surely appreciate the clarity and transparency of those communications. I hope that VTST will hoist on board the lessons of last weekend as they have lost an enormous amount of goodwill from many supporters.

But they'll still get my monthly direct debit, nonetheless.

I hope that 558 will be at Yeovilton this weekend - and thanks once again for your exceptional support!!

[hurn]

Eddief, many thanks for all your exceptional support for '558. Without your invaluable and amazing generosity, the aircraft would never have flown this year - and probably would never do so again.

Thank you also for the communiques you've posted on the VTTS website - everyone must surely appreciate the clarity and transparency of those communications. I hope that VTST will hoist on board the lessons of last weekend as they have lost an enormous amount of goodwill from many supporters.

But they'll still get my monthly direct debit, nonetheless.

I hope that 558 will be at Yeovilton this weekend - and thanks once again for your exceptional support!
Well said Sir, I wholeheartedly agree. :D

[GO90]

:sad::sad:I still quite can't believe the show weekend has passed with no vulcan. Thursday was so full of promise. The pain the base personnel and the Airshow office must have had to endure? I know people on the station who have been abused by the public for the no-show.
The VTTS have damaged the reputation of the Stn, the Air show office and the RAF. There is a pile of embarrasing metal taking up operational space and personally I can't wait to see it leave and not come back.

I did hear VTTS even had the front to ask the RAF for hangarage!

nice try VTTS. You could really have made it for us enthusiasts of the plane, but instead you screwed it up for everyone.

Branson. Please buy the plane for a £1 and put in in trust, but have your engineering team run the programme. Stick as many Virgin signs on it as you want but for god's sake fly it professionally for us.

We will never forgive VTTS for this.

Why?

They never admitted to the late screw up and kept quiet and flew in pretending all was well.
They tried to blame everyone else but themselves.
They failed to inform Waddo, and now leave them babysitting the thing.
They never once apologised.
They still haven't apologised.
Oh yes, they STILL haven't apologised.
Oh. look at their latest website post. They STILL haven't apologised.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Just watched the video of the 2008 show.

A perfect weekend of displays, As it should be when most of us J public pay 21.00 to go into Waddo!!!

Makes the 2009 show a 'Shambles' thru and thru!!!

The 2009 show 'Should' have displayed at the 'Minimum':
1 Vc10
1 Herc
1 Merlin
1 Seaking
1 Harrier or Tornado

And other possible displays available dependant on theatre op's.

As a previous poster said - 'They didn't even make an effort to even ground run or taxi XH558!!!

That would have at least shown the Paying J public that they were 'Genuinly' sorry about the whole state of affairs??

(I don't know what the surviving 'Old Boys' thought of it all)

I know what I think F**k!!!

The 2009 show is a show we 'The J Public' will never forget!!!

Enough said My rant over.

Try again in 2010.

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Quite right BYALPHA

A ground run would've at least done some pr good.

I'll still give my money, but this just looks like the same old story. Bad/amateur management. Would not be allowed in my org.

I noticed the crowd reaction to the announcement at Biggin on the Sunday, I'm sure many would've been mollified by some of that awesome noise.

Glad I'm doing 2 days of RIAT..... ( & bothered to go to BZZ the other day :ok: )

[mark25787]

A ground run would've at least done some pr good.

Unless a similar incident to the one which happened to the Victor occurred, and then they would be even deeper in the **** :\

I'm considering myself very lucky to have been at Cosford last month...at least I'm one of the few to have seen it so far this year!!

[kwh]

So just to clarify, the current position of TVOC, reading between the lines of the press release (because they aren't being explicit) is that they knew nothing and didn't understand any of the issues surrounding the Permits, and that the deferred in all these matters to Marshalls who understand them, and were thus shocked when it all went wrong.

Taking this strictly at face value, TVOC are publicly admitting that they don't know what they are doing, are they not? And that they are vulnerable to either being taken for a ride by, or (as allegedly in this case) let down by a supplier because they don't know what they are doing...

If TVOC are publically announcing that operating the Vulcan on the civil register is all too complicated for the TVOC operational people to understand and beyond their competence and experience to cope with, then why are individuals still holding down jobs that they are unable to fulfill the requirements of?

I thought the original idea was that TVOC was going to be a little one-plane selc-contained 'airline', doing its own operations and maintenance in its little shed at Brunty. Presumably on the evidence of TVOC's competence from this last weekend we can all be thankful that the maintenance is still in the hands of Marshalls...

[Blacksheep]

Some got seriously scarred by last weekend's screw-up but most of them now appreciate that 'black & white' rarely applies to complex project-management & decades old aircraftI'm sorry to disagree Eddie, but the operation of all civil aircraft is perfectly black and white, (although the RAF has been known to occasionally use a bit of red ink ;)).

The operator has responsibility to directly oversee every aspect of the operation, including any delegated or sub-contracted activities such as maintenance or continuing airworthiness management.

Always.

[Gordon Fraser]

As a long term air show attendee, I would like to add my two cents worth to the debate.
Because of a serious illlness, I am no longer able to attend airshows as I can no longer enjoy strolling round the ground displays. I have enjoyed airshows from the fifties - starting with Turnhouse in 1954, then Farnborough in 1957 and so on through the years. For many years, I was an active member of the Canadian Warplane Heritage and visited airshows annually in Hamilton, Ontario; London, Ontario and at Toronto waterfront.
In short, I know airshows!!
This year my wife treated me top a birthday surprise. We were to do Waddington first class!!
We flew in by helicopter from Newark Air Musuem and were wined and dined at the Lord Trenchard pavilion, where the hospitality was superb, and then flew back to Newark. How superior I felt looking down on the traffic jams that I am usually tied up in!!
So far so good. Now for the actual airshow.
It was probably the WORST air show I have ever attended.
Apart from the Vulcan fiasco, the display was very poor. There was very little modern air force equipment from either the Royal Air Force, or the NATO countries. Surely they are not all in Afghanistan or Iraq? No F15s, F16s or F18s. There were too many aerobatic teams - some of dubious quality, and as a previous writer has remarked, the aircraft were very high and far away.
The grouind display was poorly laid out with the aircraft on display scattered haphazardly between the hangars, stands and funfairs:eek:
Oh, for the good old days when there was a lineup of static aircraft and a separate display of display aircraft.
The sound system was appalling - a non stop barrage of very loud music.
At least the sound was closed down for the last Lancaster/Spitfire/Hurricane
flypast (according the commentator, at the request of persons who were recording on camcorders) I want to HEAR Merlins not rock music, otherwise I would have gone to Glastonbury.
The promise of TWO Vulcans and a Concorde will not drag me back to Waddington

[bubblesuk]

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gifI still quite can't believe the show weekend has passed with no vulcan. Thursday was so full of promise. The pain the base personnel and the Airshow office must have had to endure? I know people on the station who have been abused by the public for the no-show.
The VTTS have damaged the reputation of the Stn, the Air show office and the RAF. There is a pile of embarrasing metal taking up operational space and personally I can't wait to see it leave and not come back.

I did hear VTTS even had the front to ask the RAF for hangarage!

nice try VTTS. You could really have made it for us enthusiasts of the plane, but instead you screwed it up for everyone.

Branson. Please buy the plane for a £1 and put in in trust, but have your engineering team run the programme. Stick as many Virgin signs on it as you want but for god's sake fly it professionally for us.

We will never forgive VTTS for this.

Why?

They never admitted to the late screw up and kept quiet and flew in pretending all was well.
They tried to blame everyone else but themselves.
They failed to inform Waddo, and now leave them babysitting the thing.
They never once apologised.
They still haven't apologised.
Oh yes, they STILL haven't apologised.
Oh. look at their latest website post. They STILL haven't apologised.



I don't think the reputation of the station has been damaged has it? surely people are intelligent enough to know it's not don to Waddington.

The reasons for the late anouncment were given, not saying i agree but they were to be fair stuck between a rock and a hard place.

As fro branson buying the plane, well thats realy rather funny! he would have to shell out considerably more than a quid and it is in trust already:)
and besides i don't think Branson is into woodwork is he?

[kiwibrit]

I don't think the reputation of the station has been damaged has it? surely people are intelligent enough to know it's not don to Waddington

Local publicity here was heavily based on the Vulcan - and the station didn't deliver. So no matter whose fault it is, the show's reputation will be affected. If I were running the show for next year I'd want to do a bit of due diligence on 558's maintenance and paperwork before accepting it again, bearing in mind the standard of competence shown by the Vulcan's operators to date.

[bubblesuk]

Fair point, though i think the quality of the display this year will hurt them more.

[mark36]

Afraid i've got to agree.
Whether you like it or not Lincolnshire is the home to the Vulcan and the same with the Lancaster and the media,organisers play on this fact.
Waddo Airshow has been pretty dire for a few years now but it won't stop people from attending as most of them are not aviation enthusiasts but just looking for a good day out and trust me round here they're few and far between.The Vulcan is still news at the moment and just makes the show that much more interesting and even non aviation people can relate to it.For how much longer if any more issues like last weekend occur is anyones guess.

[kweelo]

Some activity around 558 this afternoon - car, transit van and an apu; was hopefully might see her depart (in a good way - nice to see her fly etc. not get rid of her!) but alas to no avail. After all that has been said, do hope she flies at Yeovilton,when all said and done, we all want the same thing - to see this beautiful bird grace the skies!

[srobarts]

An update on the Vulcan to the Sky website has been posted:

Permit Update
08 July 2009 - Robert Pleming

The draft report has been delivered to BAE Systems, who have requested a number of minor alterations. The revised (final) report with a covering letter from BAE Systems should be with CAA tomorrow for their consideration.

Therefore, the chances of flying at Yeovilton are 'fair' - (not guaranteed but by no means out of the question either).

We will update just as soon as we are certain of the position.

[NutLoose]

News Update – Thursday 9th July 2009
A key conclusion from the reaction to the cancellation of the Waddington displays is that VTST did not have an effective and timely-enough way of telling our supporters what was happening.
When the decision was made at midnight on Friday 2nd July to cancel the following day’s display, whilst the airshow organisers and local radio stations were informed, there was no mechanism in place to instantly update the website.
From today, any future announcement of a change of plan, for example, the non-appearance of XH558 at an event, will be made not only via an urgent news flash on our website, but also via a message on the XH558 Twitter feed, as well as through conventional media.
We remain very sorry to have caused so much disappointment at Waddington last weekend.
Best Regards,
Robert Pleming

Obviously he cannot see the part on most forums that he should quit!

[hurn]

So he issues an apology and still you moan. Seriously, who do you propose to take over?

I don't know Bob P personally, but from what I can gather he's dedicated to the Vulcan. He'd have to be with all the crap that has flown his way over the years.
He could probably double or triple his salary if he walked away or was pushed, but where would that leave the project?

Would anyone come along who would be any better or have the dedication to stick with it through thick and thin?
There seem to be plenty of 'experts' here, but would YOU do the job any better?

Mistakes have been made, we all know that, this latest one comes just when things were starting to get better, but for Gods' sake get over it and move on.

If you don't want to donate any more then that's your prerogative, but be careful what you wish for, because if the witch hunt succeeds then you might find there's no-one willing to take over and no Vulcan flying in the UK anymore.

[bubblesuk]

Obviously he cannot see the part on most forums that he should quit!



No but he can see where they went wrong on the comunication side of things and will make sure it improves, can we not at least give some credit?

With all these calls for Doc Bob and co to go i was wondering who would replace them? Amid all the calls i havent seen a single mention of a replacement. Is there anyone to fill the roles? and would anyone actually want the job?

[NutLoose]

He apologised for the lack of information granted, but the reason it was in that position in the first place was down to piss poor management... and putting out a newsflash on Friday at 12 midnight would do squat for those that had travelled there and stayed over to get in early Saturday Morning, when they would have had a good idea on Thursday that it would not fly.

[Winco]

hurn,

When the aircraft landed last Thursday at Waddington, it did so with the Chf Exec and his Chf Engineer knowing that they DID NOT have a permit to fly secured to display the aircraft at the weekend.

They also knew full well, that the major point and an aedit from the granting of the first PtF 12 months previous, was a requirement set down by the CAA for the testing of certain airframe parts of 603 at Woodford. They knew that without those results, the CAA were (at very best) highly unlikely to renew the permit.

So, they knew Thursday, and they knew Friday that the chances of the aircraft flying were less than slim, unless the CAA made a massive concession.

And who made the decision at midnight on Friday? Are you seriously suggesting that they were in talks all Thursday and all Friday right up until midnight? What were they discussing?? Where the nearest take-away was from Waddo?? Get a grip man. They clung on and on until it was impossible to push out a statment to the public, all the time saying that it was ther CAA that they were waiting on.

And thereby lies the problem Sir. They knew!

Now, if you think it is fair and honourable NOT to advise the great British public of those FACTS, then you are entitled to your views, but I regret that you are in a very tiny mionority. The public felt cheated and whats more, they were cheated by a fiasco of monumental proportions and one that might well signal the sad end to this project.

Without the good will of the public, the project has no future, and they will remember last weekend with anger the next time the sob stories come out and threats are made about the aircraft being 'grounded for good' unless they raise another £XXXXXX

Bubbles. I don't know anyone who could and would want to take on this project. But, there must be plenty who are infinately more capable of running better that this current bunch of 'self-appointed experts'

Piss poor management? I don't even think it's that good!

[kiwibrit]

If you don't want to donate any more then that's your prerogative, but be careful what you wish for, because if the witch hunt succeeds then you might find there's no-one willing to take over and no Vulcan flying in the UK anymore.

You may be right, in that a competent manager reviewing the project with a view to taking it on might conclude that it was not viable.

[Tempsford]

I am all for balanced discussions and have not entered into the 'hang em high' debate.

I would like to know how many current - qualified - certifying engineers there are on the Vulcan. I note that a previous post involved with rectifying the defect that prevented the Vulcan appearing at Biggin on the Sunday said something along the lines that 'I am now going to resume my holiday'. This may not be related, but I do remember last year that a shortage of certifying engineers on the Vulcan was an issue. Has this now been resolved? Is there a plan to have sufficient certification staff/mechanics to deal with routine, and planned maintenance/defect rectification on the aircraft for the whole display season 24/7? Because that is what is required.

I agree with the school of thought that even if all systems on an aircraft are 's', the aircraft cannot be declared serviceable unless all aspects of its airworthiness are addressed and this includes the paperwork. Documentation control is a 'black art' in itself and those who are involved in aircraft maintenance will probably agree that good Planners/Tech Services/Defect Analysts are worth their weight in gold.

As for the capabilities of the current VTS Management, it is not for me to say. I would say however that if the number of mistakes regarding the decisions and actions made are indeed correct, in commercial aviation or indeed many other businesses, the abilty of the individuals concerned would have been brought into question long ago regarding their suitability to hold the position they do.

At present, there are staff reductions in commercial aviation being announced almost daily. The Vulcan is a commercial operation. People pay money to see it...

There are a lot of very capable people out of work as we speak and the likelihood of them being re-employed in aviation in this country in the short term is slight. One of my sons who is in aviation has had to go and work overseas for that very reason. He had alook round the UK aviation job market recently and there are literally no jobs in his role and it is likely to get worse before it gets better.

Why don't the experienced managers who know how to make a commercial aviation operation work come forward and take on the Vulcan?

Because they know that in the long term the project will fail. It is not a matter of 'if', it is a matter of 'when'.

I woud ask those who are to stop letting your head rule your heart. I would really like to see the project succeed in the long term, but in reality look at what needs to be done to do so and ask yourself in reality if it is feasible. Suerly, even the most committed must see this?

We all know that there will be more appeals for money from the public. Just look at the number of posts stating that they will be withdrawing their financial support. You don't have to go any further than that. No money, no project. And I will say again, a no show of the Vulcan at the airshow is more obvious to the public than any other display apart from the red arrows. No show today means reduced bookings next year. And we know where reduced bookings will lead us.

I admire the loyalty expressed by some, even now, but please listen to us who are involved with and watching the hopefully temporary decline in commercial aviation in this country at present. Many well established airlines are struggling to meet ends meet. Can I ask if the operators and supporters of the Vulcan feel immune to the current economic situation and if so, can they please explain why?

[falcon12]

So there has been a major problem. Explanations have been offered, fingers pointed, punters angry. But what is Plan B? How is the PTF going to be reolved and in what timescale? And, more importantly, who pays?

Then have the unit inquirey.

[staplefordheli]

BBC radio Lincs just put interview on 13-00 news with RP saying that he was optimistic 558 would depart late this afternoon (Frid) as all the paperwork was in and they were awaiting CAA approval?
but he couldn't guarantee it :eek:

Weather is a bit stormy over Rutland with some nasty clouds heading towards Waddo
assume it will go to down to Yeovilton unless BZ first

[Vulcan 903]

Permit to fly has been issued! Expected to depart Waddo from around 1700 and arrive at Yeovilton an hour or so later.

[srobarts]

That is brill news, well done to all those who obviously worked very hard to recover this situation. At last I can plan my weekend!

[Bye]

word on the streets is they've been given a 3 month permit only, pending the work that needs to be done.

GB

[staplefordheli]

is she airborne yet?
anyone up at waddo as my 10 yr old is waiting in the garden in Rutland
i did toy with taking him there but given the reliability issues and the fact he is off with a cold i passed on it

[Bye]

just about to launch now

[staplefordheli]

Hi yes just found the twitter for her
http://twitter.com/XH558
also bbc lincs just came off phone from guy who said she was spooling up to txi
problem is a vulcan has already flown over Grantham before 5:00 according to their listeners!!
Must be that rogue one from wellesborne doing a victor impression!

[staplefordheli]

upadate she is now on txi according to her twitter site

[staplefordheli]

airborne at last from waddo according to bbc
going outside sad i know

[staplefordheli]

just passed over cottesmore and Oakham due south at 1808
looked great at about 3000 feet or less even did a wing wable over oakham must have seen us stood on the roof!!
made up for missing her at wado

[its the bish]

just landed yeovilton !

[staplefordheli]

Well that's some good news she got there safely
Hope she takes off again tomorrow at Yeovilton and displays OK
Thinking of going to RIAT on the Monday as the kids are off and I have weeks holiday although will she still be there or gone to BZ after her display at Riat on the Sunday
Anyone in the know?

Also who is running the twitter updates or has she now got a microwave radio text service on her avionics package?
XH558 (XH558) on Twitter (http://twitter.com/XH558)
Assume someone is texting twitter from the ground support, relaying positions
very good idea however if you have a mobile that supports it to find out what is happening

If anyone is reading from TVOC, I had an idea that you could use on the website. How about a set of lights on the front page to show her status I.e green amber or red
self explanatory really and easy to see at a glance if further investigation into status is needed prior to a show. I.e she should have been showing amber for most of the week running up to Waddo going red at midnight on the frid and then green tonight
easy really
Still needs updating regularly of course but with mobiles and wireless laptops, it isn't hard to do believe me as I run a couple of websites
Informing the public should be number 1 priority

Oh and thanks again for the free low level show over Oakham and Rutland
we were the ones stood on the garage roof waving like mad
brilliant

[Vulcan 903]

Glad she made it to the South West.
I hope 558 will pop up to Lasham tomorrow afternoon as planned.
I have read on another forum that one of the main landing gear only has 5 more landing before being replaced. So assume one tomorrow, one on Friday at RIAT, Sat, Sun at RIAT, thats 2 then to Brize (5) to replace it. I assume Brize as it's not going back to Bruntingthorpe?

Standard mobile SMS messaging from a mobile phone does work from the aircraft. I know that for a fact!

[hurn]

Damien Burke is the official 'man on the ground' twitterer, and a good job he does too. :D

Fantastic news today that the permit came in and they could fly to Yeovilton. 3 month extension to the Ptf by all accounts, which should cover the remaining display season.

Hope the weather and visibility isn't so bad tomorrow so that she (and the others) can display, but at least they've made the effort to get there and I'm just happy I'll to be able to see the old girl again 'in the flesh'.

Sea Vixen there too, got a new brolly, fantastic, can't wait! :ok:

[srobarts]

Permit to fly expires 1st Oct. (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=VLCN)

[Vulcan 903]

Failed to display due to brake problem.

[BEagle]

Balls!

Failed to display due to weather. Brake snag was minor and quickly fixed.

I have vague memories of the Vulcan cancelling and the Avro 707C displaying instead at Yeovilton - the weather being equally vile at the time. Did some Googling whilst whiling away the time between flights in the Senator lounge at FRA this afternoon - and discovered it must have been in 1954 when I was only 3.

Clearly a formative incident!

Gut wrenching for all the VTST team to have worked hard to fly 558 to HMS Heron, only for rain to stop play.

[Vulcan 903]

O - OK. I did'nt think there was a Marshall's engineer on site who could sign off the fix after it went tech?

[NutLoose]

May the farce be with you............

I heard brakes too..... no use fixing it if you have no engineer available is it to certify it, if that's the case, it's another nail in plemings coffin....

If it does not manage RIAT I can see it being its last season.

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Came over on twitter brake problem Shutting down.
later That was fixed but weather to bad towed to static

to get this sign up to Twitter SEARCH XH558 the select Follow

558 was due at lasham but cancelled not really surprised nothing apart
from 1 chopper was able to fly .

TONY

Farnborough

[NutLoose]

Says it all really......
All the last fundraiser did was to reduce the debt, not really fund the on going flying, if the fail at RIAT I can see it being parked up...

from

Vulcan (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Vulcan-distress-debts-soar/article-584962-detail/article.html)

Trust accounts show annual staff costs for the financial year ending in March 2009 are likely to be £620,000, while engineering and maintenance costs are estimated at £320,000. The Trust will also have to find a further £430,000 for insurance and fuel in the coming year.
The trust is shown to owe £100,000 to its landlord, C Walton Ltd.
The figures also show the Trust owes the main engineering contractor £1.3 million, a sum which it has put to one side, to allow the project to continue.
The trust acknowledged that if it were not for the generosity of key creditors, the plane would never have taken off again in October 2007.
A statement said: "Delays and unforeseen problems added to costs through 2007.
"But significant goodwill on the part of the trust's creditors, in particular prime contractor and engineering authority Marshall of Cambridge Aerospace Ltd and landlord C Walton Ltd, allowed the trust to reach the milestone of first test flight in October 2007."
David Walton, of C Walton Ltd, confirmed the company was owed a six-figure sum.
He said: "The figure is larger than the £100,000 mentioned in the accounts.
"We are being patient with the trust and we are in talks. We hope the trust comes through, although it is a tough ask in the current economic climate."
He said his company would have to consider its options should the appeal fail.
A spokesman for Marshall of Cambridge Aerospace confirmed the £1.3 million debt and said talks were continuing.
Trust chief executive Dr Robert Pleming said: "If we cannot get sufficient pledges or donations between now and the end of January the project will have to close and the Vulcan will not fly again."
The Vulcan to the Sky Trust has launched a Save the Vulcan campaign to obtain cash and pledges from the public.
A Trust said 15,000 people pledging £4 a month for a year would reach the £1million target if it was gift aided to obtain tax relief.
He said no pledges would be called on unless the prospect of reaching £1million was likely.
Project supporter Phil Baildon of Market Harborough said: "The nation cannot afford to lose such an important part of our aviation heritage.
"I would urge people to pledge a regular amount to secure its survival."
People who want to support the pledge campaign can call the team on 0116 247 8145, or see the website below

[hurn]

Balls!

Failed to display due to weather. Brake snag was minor and quickly fixed.

I have vague memories of the Vulcan cancelling and the Avro 707C displaying instead at Yeovilton - the weather being equally vile at the time. Did some Googling whilst whiling away the time between flights in the Senator lounge at FRA this afternoon - and discovered it must have been in 1954 when I was only 3.

Clearly a formative incident!

Gut wrenching for all the VTST team to have worked hard to fly 558 to HMS Heron, only for rain to stop play.
I can tell you that the VTST team were absolutely gutted today. Really felt for them.
They towed 558 across to static so everyone could get a close up view. Still an awesome sight to behold.

Conditions played havoc with the all the displays today. Kudos to all those who got up and did their 'weather checks'. :D

Sea Vixen put on a good display, but alas the weather soon deteriorated again.
New brolly came in handy at the end of the day though. :ok:

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Yeah today was unlucky, due to a fault/tech prob, & then the weather.

Nothing anyone could've changed. Fine, its what happens in flying Aircraft at the best of times.


Which is why, a Professional management structure, given the remit that

''we only have 8/10 opportunities to display in the season''

would, by dint of good management, maximise those scarce opportunities.

Last weekend was unnecessary.

Sorry people if I'm harping on, I used to see the people complaining about the mgmt ( of G-VLCN )as not important or serious.

I was wrong.

They were right.

This bird is something special, lets not lose it.


P.S. Sorry Beags, I realise it probably means more to you than I could ever imagine

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Anywhere that this bird manages to turn up is Amazing .
Yesterday i think was one of those AIR SHOW Days and we have seen a few like that down the years at FAB One minute Sunny next cloud on the deck and rain likeStair rods .
There were loads of people at Lasham and from very early
on you feared the worst but even a chance of a flyby these days brings
out big crowds hopefully next time .But thanks to all for trying

Tony
farnborough

[Smiler558]

Just to put the record straight we have a MA Tech with us full time during this season.

:)

[Vulcan 903]

Thank you Smiler for letting us know about the MA Tech, a good move for the season and I correct my original post that the brake problem was not reason for non display on Saturday but totally down to the weather.

[simplethings]

Can anybody confirm or deny that 2 MA people would have been required to clear this brake fault, as previous posts state that only one was available with the VOC. If it is the case that 2 are required have they gone to Yeovilton to fix it?

On another note, when is the aircraft due at Fairford?

[mark36]

Cant help with the MA question but regards RIAT,the talk is leaving Yeoviltan around midday Friday arriving at RIAT 12.30 -12.45 and from a good source arriving with company.

[Vulcan 903]

From Twitter:
Current plan is to depart Yeovilton around 12 on Friday, arrive at Fairford 12.45. Displaying at RIAT on both Saturday and Sunday.

[staplefordheli]

Anyone know as per previous post if she will depart Monday from Riat or return to Bz from her sunday display as I plan to go down monday for departures if she is there still with my autistic son to make up for the dissapointment at Waddo as he wants to see a takeoff
regards

[staplefordheli]

Frid Delayed due weather. Now 1430 arrival at Fairford.:{

Just in off her own twitter updates
still awaiting to see if she will stay over sunday night, no one seems to know

[BEagle]

Well done to all involved!

A well-spotted weather window meant that 558 was able to fly to Fairford today, despite the generally dog-$hit local area weather.

Here's hoping that tomorrow will bring clearer skies!

[staplefordheli]

Yes was following on twitter. Its all up here now
Harriers have all stopped flying now out of Cots which is a shame although looks like the worst has now gone North East towards Waddo
Amazing how you take them for granted as they have been blasting circuits over Oakham all morning. but didnt notice till it went so quiet
Saturday is a sell out at RIAT I see :ok:

[TURIN]

Can anybody confirm or deny that 2 MA people would have been required to clear this brake fault, as previous posts state that only one was available with the VOC. If it is the case that 2 are required have they gone to Yeovilton to fix it?


Interesting question.

I assumed the Brake Fault was landing gear related. Normally no 'dupe' required.

If it was an Airbrake Fault then perhaps a Duplicate Inspection would be required. :confused:

[BEagle]

Vulcan airbrakes are driven electrically, not hydraulically.

The Vulcan hydraulic system is pretty basic; pumps on 3 engines and one Electro-Hydraulic Power Pack (EHPP) for ground operation. Wheelbrakes, nosewheel steering, bomb doors, AAPP intake scoop and that's about it.

But it runs at around 4000 psi, so is a system to be viewed with caution!

[sooty655]

Wheelbrakes, nosewheel steering, bomb doors, AAPP intake scoop and that's about it.

And the undercarriage!

Sooty

[BEagle]

Indeed!

ooops......:uhoh:

[airsound]

She landed about 1515 - and I don't think there was a soul left in the chalets, they all came out to see her.

She's parked at the Eastern end, on the south (crowd) side, and I believe she's taking tours tomorrow. Vulcan Village is near by.

She featured in much of the BBC South West evening news, including an interview with Martin Withers.

airsound

[srobarts]

And a fine sight she was too, the eastern enclosure only had eyes for her, following her right to her stand.
The twitter update was a godsend with the changing schedule because of the weather.

[staplefordheli]

BBC - Points West (http://www.bbc.co.uk/pointswest/)

and click listen to latest edition
it starts at 15:40 minutes in
good pics of herl landing today at RIAT

[Vulcan 903]

So far 558 has made 50% of it's planned displays this year, so let hope
the WX at Fairford is kind. Saturday looks good, but Sunday WX so not good. I might go Sunday so fingers crossed I see a Vulcan in display?

[Dis Gruntled]

Turin in answer to your post about duplicates etc. As far as I know nobody has the auth within tvoc too sign for doing a brake fault which is why 2 MA blokes would of been needed. So just needed a first and second sig.
Also a question of my own, I remember the u/c had to be changed last year after so many landings and there where problems with the seals on the new one. Now is the new one servicable or got concessions, because working it out she has no more than 3 landings left.

[TURIN]

Thanks Dis-Gruntled.

Still a bit confused though.

Don't quite understand why two certifiers are required for a brake fault. :ok:

[Dis Gruntled]

Simple really mate, the one that does the job signs and then it needs indies, seeing as tvoc have nobody who can sign for the job it would need 2 MA blokes.

[dixi188]

Not sure how the maintenance it set up for the Vulcan, but in civi street,(and it is on the civil register) as a B1 licensed engineer I can do the job and certify it myself.

The only time a duplicate inspection is required is for flying or engine controls unless otherwise specified in the maintenance procedure.

So I think only one MA engineer required in the case of brakes.

[Vulcan 903]

Cracking display at Fairford today. When 558 leaned over to show the crowds the bomb bay, we at Totterdown Camp Site got the top side view and it was great. Climb out's too were good and noisy. Well done Kevin and Martin for a great display today.

[NRU74]

Well done Kevin and Martin for a great display today.....and also two cheers for the guy in the back !

[Vulcan 903]

And the guy's in the back of course - I assume Andy as Nav, who was the AEO for this display - Phil or Barry?

[airsound]

Saturday. Martin Withers captain. Kev Rumens co-captain. Phil Davies AEO.

Sunday. Kev captain. Martin co-captain. Phil AEO.

Under the 'minimum crew' regulations, the VTST navigator Andy Marson is not allowed to fly in displays. Ridiculous I know, and efforts are being made to get it changed.

airsound
Commentator for XH558

[BEagle]

I think you'll find that Garmin was the 'nav'.......!

558 doesn't need aged old beings to dampen the seat cushions and to understand the ancient electro-mechanical navigation devices which used to live in black dustbins somewhere in the bowels of the jet.

Many a time I recall seeing a RVT whizzing round the peri-track with a replacment 'Calc 2' or somesuch which the directional consultants needed to fettle the NBS. After The Thing was unloaded, there would be a few moments of cursing and swearing from the techies as they fitted it, then murmurs of contentment from the back seats as the navigators got it all working as advertised.

[Blacksheep]

I recall seeing a RVT whizzing round the peri-track I don't recall the Fairies' RVTs "whizzing" anywhere. The RVT gearbox and its column mounted pudding stirrer was of the "keep stirring, you'll find one in a minute" variety. ;)

If there was any "whizzing" to be done it was in the Landrovers with no brakes and 6 inches of play in the steering that we happily drove at 70, heeling over on the Gin-Palace bend like an Americas Cup competitor in a force eight.

(All air-side vehicles were robbed of any roadworthy bits by MT for use on the road-going ones)

[airsound]

Not sure if you're making a serious point or not, Beags. It may be something to do with the fact that, as a humble ex-truckie, I haven't a clue what a Calc 2 might be.

But as for
558 doesn't need aged old beings to dampen the seat cushions and to understand the ancient electro-mechanical navigation devices which used to live in black dustbins somewhere in the bowels of the jet.
I agree about the ancient devices, (and I'm not even going to think about damp cushions) but that doesn't mean they don't need a real directional consultant.

GPS is all very well, but 558's permission status as a VMC only aircraft means that she sometimes has to thread her way between the charlie bangers en route from one display to another. On these occasions, having someone who is expert with a quarter-inch topo and stopwatch can make the difference between getting to the next show and having to divert - expensively. Clearly it's not necessary when she's taking off and landing at the display site, but that's by no means always the case.

As a founder member of SoDCAT, Andy has those qualifications in spades.

airsound

[FantomZorbin]

SoDCAT ... my! my! ... 'tis a few years since I've heard mention of the old Guild! :ok:

[Vulcan 903]

Expect a flypast at Filton today around 13.00hrs, back at Brize around 13.45.

[NutLoose]

Expect a flypast at Filton today around 13.00hrs, back at Brize around 13.45.


45 Mins, I could do it quicker on my pushbike with a good wind behind me, or is it your new pilot prone to getting lost easily?.

[Vulcan 903]

Off to Filton now, then Lulsgate? then Stroud then into Brize.

[Winco]

As someone who has frequently been quick to slate the management of this project, let me say that the display yesterday was outstanding by any measure.

The take off must rate as perhaps the 'punchiest' I have ever seen from a big aircraft, and the rest of the display (whilst relatively tame by 'old' standards) was still a joy to behold.

Well done to all concerned and long may it continue!

Winco

[airsound]

Thanks Winco. Since most of them don't read this forum any more, I'll pass your kind comments on.

airsound

[JW411]

I first encountered SODCAT when the late Davie Boden forged his own F1250 emblazened with his photograph and SODCAT in big letters. He flew round the world for years with it and never got stopped by the plods once to my knowledge.

Sorry for the thread creep.

[andrewmcharlton]

On a flying front let me echo what Winco said, I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it and tremendous performance all round.

It would be good to think that those in command back at base could perform to the same exemplary levels and then all the talking would only be about the flying and rightly so. Great work, great day, thanks and well done.

[BEagle]

Nope, both AEO and pilots have independent Garmin systems and, for the type of VFR navigation 558 requires, there is absolutely no need for a navigator on flights made in accordance with the restrictions of the Permit-to-Fly.

If a map-and-stopwatch back up is needed, the non-flying pilot can do that.

GPS will provide waypoint ETA with sufficient accuracy for an airshow display slot to be met - and you don't need to have had months of theory at Scargill International plus hours of backwards flying time in an ancient twin-jet to be able to operate a Garmin!

A 'Calc 2' was one of the electro-mechanical computers included in the V-bomber Navigation and Bombing System.

[Checkflaps]

More lurker than poster here. Thought I would throw a couple of vids up to enjoy. First is from Sunday at RIAT (SWMBO), Second is mine from Filton.
Thanks to the Vulcan team for a great show this weekend http://forums.airshows.co.uk/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.airshows.co.uk/images/smilies/clap.gif . Particularly chuffed to see XH558 at Filton yesterday (rather short notice though) http://forums.airshows.co.uk/images/smilies/yahoo.gif

Sunday Show
YouTube - pre-take off of Vulcan XH558 at RIAT 09 (Sunday) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufd7qLeG1Rk)

Monday Flypast (x2) at Filton (Bristol)
YouTube - XH558 at Filton (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLvErCPTXZg)

Enjoy. Fingers crossed for a full week of servicability, she's gonna be busy from Wednesday to Sunday.

Checkflaps. :ok:

[GeeRam]

Crikey........:eek:
That was some rotation take-off and wing-over :D:ok:

[MAN777]

A couple of my shots at Fairford

Vulcan on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31693696@N04/3742353990/)

Vulcanfairford09 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31693696@N04/3742349980/)

I will try and put some more up later.

[Coastergirl]

After several attempts on Stupid Tube, my videos from RIAT Sunday have FINALLY uploaded!
Here is part 1, which covers her waiting to taxy, being overflown by the B-52 and then taking off herself into an incredible Kev-Rumens-Tonka-pilot-special wingover! The actual link is

YouTube - Vulcan XH558 at RIAT 09 (Sunday) Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufd7qLeG1Rk)

and it is better if you watch it in HQ and in full screen, but here's the small version of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufd7qLeG1Rk

Here is part 2, which is the main display. When she took off, she did a massive wide circle behind the airfield so this video starts from when she does her run in from the right, to begin her actual display.... The link if you want to watch in HQ and full screen is

YouTube - Vulcan XH558 at RIAT 2009 (Sunday) Part 2 (main display) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSwrpO47A_M)

or here is the small version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSwrpO47A_M

Apologies on both videos for the amount of wind noise you can hear and how shaky the camera is - it was blowing a gale out there, and as Wedgy and I were stood watching from the middle of the lawn completely unprotected from the elements with no shelter at all (go on, violins please lol!) the wind was trying to blow me over, it was all I could do stand relatively still! Also, the footage was taken in widescreen, not sure why I wasn't able to capture it as wide-screen, so it looks a bit squished. I might try again at some point but who knows!

Enjoy!

CG