BA Cityflyer

[red17]

Ok looks like there isn't a thread for this already, so now seems a good time to start one.
Some questions that I can't seem to find answers for.

Is BA Cityflyer going to be created as a seperate subidiary or will it be a renamed BACON just with the LCY routes etc.

Does anyone know what is meant by the expansion of routes out of LCY?

Could be an interesting few months for this airline and its staff

[towser]

Wholly owned subsidiary which will be called BA Cityflyer. As for expansion of routes at the moment there are 3/4 aircraft based in Edinburgh. Once deal is all sorted out there will effectivley be 9/10 so more routes needed to work all the aircraft. This will include new destinations out of LCY and maybe an increase in rotations to destinations already served.

[red17]

towser

Thanks towser :ok: , what would the chances be of a IOM - LCY route, and what slots do BA have availble / intend to acquire, T3 is cancelling its NCL - LCY route and so that will free up a small number.

[Anotherflapoperator]

The chances of an IOM-LCY are absolutely none. This would be treading on the toes of the Flybe deal to take the 146 operation that already sits on the Island. If they did try it, they would put Euromanx out of business in very short order.

As Euromanx only exist because they owe the RBS so much money they need to pay it back (at least £40mill so far), they need to stay profitable on the LYC route to survive. BA Citiflyer also exist because of a huge contract with the RBS on the EDN-LCY route, and the RBS call the tune. So go figure. Would RBS sanction an IOM rotation and jeapodise their £40mill investment? Don't think so.

[FlyboyUK]

What about routes like the MAD-BHX?

At the moment the route is part of a touring pattern through LCY. I doubt Flybe will be continuing the route once the RJs have gone to Cityflyer, as they will not have the eqipment to operate it.

So could we still see the continuation of the LCY-MAD-BHX-MAD-LCY rotation? After all they have got to find something to do with all the airframes.

[red17]

It looks like BA Cityflyer is only going to concentrate on LCY to begin with so i would imagine any such existing route goes to BE.

IOM - LCY would be profitable, but the BE 146 deal is IOM - LGW so why would a wholly seperate subsidiary pay attention to BE. And are RBS really that involved??

[towser]

I reaaly don't think the RBS are that deeply involved that they would have a say in such things however it is possible. As for the MAD-BHX as far as I'm aware everthing that Cityflyer does will rotate through London city i.e. out to Madrid, back to city and out to somehwere else so all the european stuff out of BHX that's part of a tour will go to BE.

[red17]

The EM of today might not be able to get debts of that much, an i don't know where that figure came from but its still the same company that had dorniers and rj's galore to places like BRS with only 2 pax on board.

[TURIN]

The rumour going around the UK regions is that BA Cityflyer will take over all BA's UK domestic services.

[Ronaldsway Radar]

£40m owed to RBS! Lol, I can safely say that's not true ;).

There are no large loans outstanding with RBSGrp for EuroManx.

RR

[TheGorrilla]

That'll be annoying. I'll have to explain to people that I used to fly for the real CityFlyer and not this new shambles. :bored: :E

[Railgun]

The rumour going around the UK regions is that BA Cityflyer will take over all BA's UK domestic services.

The rumour going around the UK regions is that ...........(insert latest BA airline) will take over all BA's UK domestic services.

Same thing happened when BA Connect was launched.

[flyer55]

Its good to see them using The Cityflyer name again and I also used to work for the original CFE @ LGW !

[Dash-7 lover]

Apparently people have been withdrawing their applications faster than ever.........BRAL style management techniques!

[skiddyiom]

BA CityFlyer - same inept management, same decrepit aircraft, same prospective life-span - about 2 years tops!:E

skiddy

[Flymegirl]

Do they or will they have Cabin Crew based at LCY or LGW, any advice or help would be appreciated.

[marlowe]

Apparently cabin crew to be based at both airports

[Re-Heat]

What about routes like the MAD-BHX?
At the moment the route is part of a touring pattern through LCY. I doubt Flybe will be continuing the route once the RJs have gone to Cityflyer, as they will not have the eqipment to operate it.
So could we still see the continuation of the LCY-MAD-BHX-MAD-LCY rotation? After all they have got to find something to do with all the airframes.
Hence the pending announcement of two more LCY routes that has been reported - as yet unknown to where.

[flyer55]

Actually Cfe @ LGW was profitable and existed for more than 2 years and was bought by BA for £70 million . I wonder what routes will disappear from LGW to LCY ?

[swede-basher]

About the only thing mainline didn't totally trash from the original CFE was the name. Seems that with the proposed management they are intent to do just that and finish the job off.
Isn't it a little ironic the CS former CFE is now FD and Deputy CEO at Flybe ??bet he is already rubbing his hands together ready for another RE screw up and the countless opportunities this will present them with, not least of which will be what can they can cart off for free again when he has.
So much for WW's reputation for being astute if he can't find better than he has.:}

[TOPFLIGHT]

Anyone heard whats happening with the Man-Jfk yet ? Are the Man based cabin crew staying on it or will Edi/Lcy be operating it or will it be Lhr crews ? The 76 rumours are v quiet...any news out there ?

[Jaq]

Flymegirl, if your interseted, CityFlyer will be starting 20 cabin crew based at LCY soon.

[flyer55]

The MAN - JFK being operated by Mainline LHR WW crew .

[TOPFLIGHT]

Flyer 55..thanks. Is that official or rumour ? the crews at Bacon that ops the 76 in Man have heard nothing !

[flyer55]

I believe that is waht is happening as they will do it as a back to back , but also heard that EF LHR could do it !

[4468]

Talk around Waterside is that BACF are pushing for a LCY-MAN route. After all, the management will need a taxi service from the office to the 'operation'! Otherwise, how can they be expected to even recognise an RJ100?

LCY-GLA is a goer, (possibly linked to an Iberian destination) as is a number of aircraft nightstopping in 'The Smoke'.

There are however, serious problems with the timescales for the start of the new venture. Apparently it's one hell of a mess! Wonder if that's a sign of things to come!

[Skipness One Echo]

Did they not dump GLA for EDI about 2 years ago?

[towser]

They did but apparently 'the market has changed'!

[flyer55]

Yeah they did as LCY-GLA was not profitable !

[BAladdy]

Ok LCY-GLA didn't make money before but they must think there is a future in it found this on gla BAA website:


Featured destinations
London City
Fly to the heart of the City with new airline BA CityFlyer, part of British Airways. From the end of March, BA CityFlyer will offer up to four flights a day to London City Airport, linking Glasgow's growing financial services sector and the heart of Europe's most important financial centre. London City enjoys rapid transit links to Canary Wharf and the centre of London, making it the ideal choice for business and leisure travellers.


Have looked on BA and BACON intranets no word on it. So just wait and see.

[Skipness One Echo]

In fairness was there not the opportunity to make MORE on LCY-EDI and focus ops there at the time? Remember the whole RBS block buying deal? Seems to have worked, good luck for GLA-LCY.
By God they really are London Airways now......hope this doesn't impact on LGW as easyJet are now on the route their.

[chrism20]

It´s NOW bookable on the BA website by the looks of it

Monday to Friday

BA 8721 GLA 0700 arriving LCY 0840
BA 8723 GLA 0830 arriving LCY 1005
BA 8725 GLA 1225 arriving LCY 1400
BA 8727 GLA 1550 arriving LCY 1725

Returning flights

BA 8722 LCY 0910 arriving GLA 1045
BA 8726 LCY 1340 arriving GLA 1515
BA 8728 LCY 1800 arriving GLA 1935
BA 8730 LCY 1920 arriving GLA 2055

Saturdays

BA 8721 GLA 0700 arriving LCY 0840

BA 8722 LCY 0910 arriving GLA 1045

Sundays

BA 8725 GLA 1225 arriving LCY 1400
BA 8727 GLA 1550 arriving LCY 1725

BA 8728 LCY 1800 arriving GLA 1935
BA 8730 LCY 1920 arriving GLA 2055

[chrism20]

Meant to add to the above post, the operator still says BAConnect on the BA website.

Wonder when BA will officially announce the launch of BACityflyer

[a1234]

What are the chances of this new service serving CWL? Air Wales did well on this a few years ago so it has he capacity to work.

[4468]

Not Cardiff yet!

But this bunch have more aircraft than they know what to do with, so ANYWHERE is possible. Don't forget, this time, it doesn't even have to make a profit!!

Zurich's looking good too! :rolleyes:

[chrism20]

Indeed it is, also bookable

4 per weekday, one on a Saturday and 2 on a Sunday

[Skipness One Echo]

Zurich from City. Less than a year after dumping Geneva? Joined up management anyone?

[chrism20]

either that or too many RJ´s and no where to send em

[flyer55]

And crew getting paid more than Mainline LGW new entrants as they are both recruiting for Crew

[01475]

Is this the 3rd or 4th time BA have tried GLA - LCY?

[4468]

Anybody care to guess who will be operating the Iberian destinations from BHX and MAN?? Quite a long way for a Dash 8? :rolleyes:

[Jaq]

I think it's more that they have got rid of BAR, and it's more than 2 years so they can reopen Gla - Lcy.

[GBALU53]

One must look long term the Iberian flights will be operated the EMB195s if they can get them delivered from the manufacturer as there seems to be a problem at the moment and the Manfacturer has not been able to meet the delivery slots.

Not very good is it.

The next 18 months will see how well all this is going or how badly and over committed it is going to be.

With only seven weeks to go before summer timetables start what suprises will this takeover reveal, good times or bad times, lets be hopefull for Joe Bloggs and his familly to get some good deals and get the public on those vacant seats.

[Skipness One Echo]

Only the second time for BA LCY-GLA

[Superpilot]

Will Flight Crew also be based at LCY?

[towser]

Superpilot - No plans to base flight crew in LCY.

[4468]

Superpilot - There will indeed be 'Flight Crew' based at LCY. In the form of cabin crew. There will never be any pilots based there.

[virginblue]

With these 22 daily flights from LCY, is the whole Avro RJ100 fleet busy - or to put it differently, how many jets are still available for additional flights ?

[red17]

Any idea if BACF are looking at IOM. If the finance sector is important in their business plan then IOM could be a possibility.

[MarkD]

how many RJ100 flights does LCY allow per day due noise contour?

[Dash-7 lover]

Heard they might be after some RJ85's to replace some of the 100's

[Agent Oringe]

There was a recent Ad in Flight for BAE146 /RJ100 Captains & First Officers to be based at LCY. This was by the contract agency PAS, they were also offering paid accommodation and transport.:eek:

[towser]

Don't know who the LCY based jobs were for but they weren't for Cityflyer.

[TFR]

They were for Cityjet who are increasing their ops at LCY to 10 destinations for AF

Details here (in French) http://www.aerocontact.com/news/ac_news_art.php?ID=03599

[TURIN]

BA internal recruitment still after 3 B1 Licensed Engineers based at LCY. Not many takers. Wonder why? Sick of dodgy RJ APUs?:E

[skiddyiom]

"Wonder why? Sick of dodgy RJ APUs?"

More like sick of the same dodgy management! :}

skiddy

[Jaq]

Turin, the APUs don't cause any problems. That job is covered by management. :ugh:

[virginblue]

- the two "new" RJ85 that will replace two RJ100s are, by the way, ex Blue1 aircraft and thus two of the newest Avro RJs around.

- Cityflyer has filed slot requests at DUS for summer 08.

[BAladdy]

BACF first RJ85 reg G-LCYB has been resprayed in NWI into full BA colours

http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?regsearch=G-LCYB&view=true

Anyone know when it is due to operate it's first flight? Also have they decided which routes to put it on?? WAW/BCN/MAD or NCE?

G-BXAR and G-BXAS that were due to return to lessor have had there lease extended due to the increased flying program from May 08

[Spitfire boy]

ATI reports the following today "BA commercial director Robert Boyle says the carrier is looking at the Embraer 170/190 family and "may look again" at turboprops. He adds that switching to younger RJ-family aircraft is also a possibility." In other words keep all your options open to get the best deal when you do decide.

[cmf146]

This is due for delivery 26 March 08. The second one is still in service with Blue 1 and not due for hand-back maintenance until late March 08.

[BAladdy]

Heard the second one will be in service from around the 5th May
to be registered G-LCYC.

It's good to see that BA's management are talking about more RJ's or new aircraft for the fleet. I have heard that BA have looked at the Embraer 170/190 and they are also in talks with Bae to see if they can get there hands on more RJ85's and possibly some RJ70's. to replace some of the RJ100's and also to grow the fleet. They have also said that they would not rule out the A318 if the market demanded it.

I guess BA is happy with the performance of BACF. Also BACF have said the new NCE and BCN route forward bookings are well ahead of what they had expected them to be.

[tristar500]

The A318 is not and will not be considered for BACityflyer. All down to 'scope clause' and logistical issues at LCY. Crew 'currency' and 'recency' is another issue.

The proposed LCY-JFK-LCY operation, by A318s will be crewed by LGW based crew.

[marlowe]

tristar500 dont hold your breath on that one!!!!!

[BAladdy]

BACF start there additional daily LCY/NCE and there 2 additional daily EDI/LCY rotations from Monday. Using a Flightline 146. Operating M-F,

EDI/LCY/EDI/LCY/NCE/LCY/EDI.

Does anyone know:

Are they using one particular 146 from the Flightline fleet as they do on the LCY/DUB route (G-FLTB)? If so any idea of the reg?

Will the aircraft as the DUB aircraft carry BA markings?

Are the flightline aircraft operated by BACF cabin crew or Flightline cabin crew??. If it is Flightline cabin crew are they in BA uniform?

Finally will the aircraft remain in EDI Saturday and Sunday or position to SEN on a Friday night and back to EDI on Sunday night?

Thanks in advance for any questions you can answer.

BAladdy

[silverstreak]

G-FLTF and G-TBIC are two of the 3 Flightline aircraft going to be used on the additional LCY-EDI services. There is also a Titan 146 slot - registration to be adv on day of flight.

Should have BA titles, but Flightline crewed.

Should be very interesting.

[BAladdy]

Thanks for the info silverstreak.

I thought G-TBIC is still with Aer Arran and is due to remain there until end of October.

Thought they would just use G-FLTB and G-FLTF and rotate them once in a while. One operating EDI and one operating DUB.

[cmf146]

G-TBIC is with Air Arann until October, but it could end earlier if the IT programme runs down, as they have another on lease EI-CNQ ( also due to be returned to CityJet in Oct. )

As for G-FLTB it is on maintenance at Exeter at present and I think G-FLTF is only standing in for it, as it has not been repainted and carries no titles.

No doubt all will become clearer soon.

[towser]

G-TBIC and G-FLTF both operating out of City this morning.

[HZ123]

What seating config do the Flightline aircraft have?

[BAladdy]

Have noticed recently that both the MAD and ZRH flights that usually use the RJ85 aircraft. There has been on a few occasions in past weeks they have been operated by a RJ100. Is there a problem with one or both the RJ85's ??.

In answer to you question HZ123 believe the flightline a/c are 2/3. However when it operates flights with a club cabin is configured 2/2. Not sure if they have converter seats or just block off the middle seat

The a/c can carry I believe a max of 94Y.

I remember reading an article that said BACF where looking at replacing their fleet of RJ100 aircraft. Anyone heard anymore on this??.

AZ have 6 4 year old Embrear 170 aircraft that could be soon available!!

[racer09]

Believe the announcement on aircraft is due within the next few weeks.

[HOVIS]

Heard a rumour that A318s will replace the whole fleet and CityFlyer will takeover all Mainline domestic routes. IE LHR/LGW-MAN, EDI, GLA etc.

Ramp talk or is there substance to it?

[Carnage Matey!]

That rumour has been doing the rounds in various incarnations for various subsidiaries for at least 5 years. It wasn't going to happen then and it isn't going to happen now.

[cornishsimon]

CityFlyer taking over mainline domestic routes? would that be such a bad thing?

bring back meals for domestics as per CityFlyer !!!!

i very much doubt you would see A318's being introduced as a replacement for the whole domestic/CityFlyer fleet due to the A318 being weight restricted ex LCY?

[midweeksaint]

BALaddy
This article (from ATI) might explain why RJ100s have been on those routes. Another article also appeared the day before noting the wet-lease (from Flightline) of two 146s for the GVA and NCE routes from mid-December. Not clear though if these are two more beyond the two already operating as mentioned earlier in this thread.

Cheers

BA CityFlyer RJ85 loses panel on departure from Amsterdam
Victoria Moores, London (24Sep08, 16:20 GMT, 222 words)

British Airways (BA) CityFlyer has inspected its Avro RJ fleet after a one of its RJ85ERs lost a piece of fairing measuring 1.5m x 0.8m (4.9ft x 2.6ft) on departure from Amsterdam Airport earlier this month. The aircraft - a 2001 example, registered G-LCYB - was operating as flight BA8452 from Amsterdam to London City on 15 September with 46 passengers on board. A BA CityFlyer spokeswoman says: "On departure from Amsterdam an off-duty air traffic controller spotted something falling from the aircraft into woodland on the flightpath." She says the crew were alerted, but the instruments did not show any faults, therefore the aircraft continued to London City where it landed normally. On inspection the aircraft was found to be missing an upper wing fairing. The spokeswoman says: "It was a fairing which connects from the wing root to the body of the aircraft. It is not a working part and is not vital to the operation of the aircraft. "A full repair has now been completed and all other wing-to-body fairing panels on this aircraft have been inspected. The investigation has found the cause of the panel loss was down to the failure of the metal grommets that hold the panel in place." She says the investigation was carried out by BA CityFlyer and its maintenance provider, supported by BAE Systems.

[tristar500]

Flightline Bae 146-200s G-FLTB and G-FLTF (rotating on a weekly basis) are contracted to be flying for BACF and based at EDI until MAR09.

G-FLTB fresh out of the hangar, with BA titles and a very clean and fresh interior.

So far, making an excellent impression. Crews arrive nice and early and a very reliable service. Have based engineering staff at EDI too with a healthy spares / backup package.

[Mister Geezer]

So far, making an excellent impression. Crews arrive nice and early and a very reliable service so far. Have based engineering staff at EDI too with a healthy spares / backup package.

Thank you... We aim to please!!! ;)

[DutchBird-757]

With the fleet decision still pending I found this very interesting article:

JetBlue also said it has executed an agreement to sell four new E190's, produced by Brazil's (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4157796/#) Embraer Brazilian Aviation Co. (ERJ), according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The four aircraft are scheduled for delivery to JetBlue in the first quarter of 2009 and are to be delivered to the third party immediately after, subject to contingencies including lease negotiations, according to the filing

The article states that these 4 aircraft might be going to Azul (Brazil LCC) but you never know...

[flyer55]

Hope Cityflyer dont take over the mainline Domestic routes , but I do feel that Domestic routes need a shake up especially cabin service !

[Cyrano]

The article states that these 4 aircraft might be going to Azul (Brazil LCC) but you never know...

That's incredibly perceptive of you. Yeah, of course Jetblue claimed to have done a deal with Jetscape for four aircraft to be leased to Azul, made a filing (as a public company) with the Securities and Exchange Commission to that effect, and talked to the press (e.g. this Flight story (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/article.aspx?liArticleID=316216&PrinterFriendly=true)), and Azul (David Neeleman)) told the same story to the press... but you could see it was all lies - it was just cover for a secret BACF order for four E190s!

:ugh:

(Nothing personal, but there's just no need for any conspiracy theory - if BA or any other big carrier wanted to source E190s they could do so without two other airlines having to perjure themselves, believe me...)

[DutchBird-757]

Easy now tiger. ;) I wasn't implying anything in that direction. But I get your point. It was purely meant as info. All we gotta do is wait. :ok:

[silverstreak]

... No really...

Give BACityflyer or even flybe the UK domestic routes - Please...

BA Mainline are a bunch of whinging, pampered and overpaid :mad:...

1. BACityflyer are flying 'BA Liveried' aircraft, offering the 'BA product', with staff in 'BA uniforms'. FINE. However BA dont want to pay Cityflyer crew / staff mainline money, or have them 'involved' in the BA Mainline seniority machine... PATHETIC.

2. BACityflyer work hard, and put up with a sh1t load of issues regarding (as per above) and aircraft reliability.

3. Maybe if BA took a good hard look at the Cityflyer operation, and the amount of money it generates, it would realise that for a small operation it brings in the cash and then some and deserves to be treated accordingly, with resources (aircraft), and infrastructure that are fit for the job.

A fleet upgrade announcement is due soon - one wonders what BA have up their sleeve... Dash8-400s or EMB190s or even the A318!

The phrase that doesnt pay... ''Scope-clause'' Tailored to suit BA Mainline whenever they see fit...

Hats off to the guys and girls at Cityflyer and the work they put in :ok:

[Tandemrotor]

A fleet upgrade announcement is due soon

In the current economic climate, I have to confess I would be a little disappointed if BA make an announcement regarding ANY large capital outlay!

[Carnage Matey!]

BA Mainline are a bunch of whinging, pampered and overpaid

At least we can see where you're coming from. Chip on both shoulders!

[DutchBird-757]

Let's stop that part of Silverstreak's discussion right here and keep this thread civilized from here onwards cause I see where this is going. :yuk:

[HZ123]

Its going nowhere. BA has enough to concern itself with the loss of 2.6 millions a day and which bank will lend it capital today for new aircraft. I doubt it will be spending much time or money on CX. My son who is a keen anorak tells me that the EMB's have yet to be cleared for LCY operations. If they have why has no-one posted any photos of the a/c @ LCY. Futhermore LCY and its customer base must surely lose a % of its passengers and that is assuming it has not already done so? LCY have withdrawn from the SEN purchase bid so I imagine they see some tight times ahead.

[PC767]

Slight aside here. Recently the acting head of IFS at BA acknowledged that the company was not physically loosing £2.6million per day but that revenue was down £2.6million per day.

[marlowe]

HZ123 the 170 is cleared for the steep approach at lcy i believe , the 190 Embraer hope, will be cleared by December 2008. The reason you have no pictures of an aircraft at LCY is because nobody is operating the 170 into there at the moment! It was rumoured that Air France were going to during the summer but that rumour proved unfounded .

[midweeksaint]

marlowe
Why would AF operate 170s into LCY when they have 27 RJ85s? Their choice is pretty clear. The Em-190 clearance into LCY which is scheduled for December is I believe tied to the Lufthansa order for the aircraft where the first delivery is due early next year. But they have now chosen to put their first aircraft into Air Dolomiti at Milan. Don't expect to see any Embraers into LCY anytime soon!

[mmeteesside]

KLM or Flybe may well be interested, though.

[marlowe]

Midweek. I have no idea why they would operate into LCY with a 170, hazarding a guess it might be the price of fuel on the 4 engined RJ against the better fuel economy of the 2 engined Embraer who knows? All i said was there was a rumour that they were going to this summer. As it happened they didnt, I have no idea why they didnt, you will have to ask them yourself!!

[Mister Geezer]

Why would AF operate 170s into LCY when they have 27 RJ85s? Their choice is pretty clear.

Cover for tech aircraft.......

[HZ123]

Sorry to go on but I still maintain that the EMB is not cleared for LCY. If the a/c has never been to LCY then I cannot see it ioerating. EMB should by now have flown a number of proving flights in and out?

[Tandemrotor]

My reading is that the E170 has received Brazilian steep approach certification, in order to demonstrate it's capability to operate into LCY.

I am unsure as to whether it has or will achieve CAA/JAA certification for such operations.

In any event, I strongly suspect in the current economic climate, this is all pretty irrelevant for BACF.

[aee190]

HZ123 why do you maintain that the EMB170 has not been certified for LCY. You only have to search any aviation related website such as flightglobal.com to realise that it has indeed been certified.

As for the aircraft never having been to LCY, this picture (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Embraer/Embraer-ERJ-170-100LR-170LR/0834749&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=1&sok=WHERE__%28aircraft_generic_%3D_%27Embraer_ERJ-170ESCSLASH175%27%29_AND_%28place_%3D_%27London_-_City_%28LCY_ESCSLASH_EGLC%29%27%29_&sort=_order_by_photo_id_DESC_&prev_id=&next_id=NEXTID) would seem to indicate otherwise.

[HZ123]

AAE. Thanks for that you are the first to come up with hard facts. As others have said though it is doubtful that EMB will be getting any orders from BACX. The picture is 2005 so it might suggest that no airlines have shown much interest.

[BALLSOUT]

When I was with citiexpress, I saw the 170 at the city, doing the steep approach trials. it must have been at least three years ago.
The talk then was that we would soon get them as a replacement. Dream on!

[TURIN]

it is doubtful that EMB will be getting any orders from BACX.

I would bet my house on that. :};);)

[dollydaydream]

Me too!
Pretty safe bet considering they no longer exist!!:)

[midweeksaint]

Marlowe
A common misconception there. I have seen data which indicates that whilst the E170 does indeed burn around 20% less fuel than an RJ85, don't forget that the RJ85 is a lot cheaper to purchase or lease and in my simple operating cost model I think there is a signficant economic benefit in favour of the RJ85. And don't forget that the RJ85 also carries 99 passengers in a single-class layout compared to the Embraer's (albeit I think the RJ85 is at 79 seats with BACF?). I think fuel needs to go up quite a bit more yet before the cheaper capital cost of the RJ85 is outweighed by the Embraer's lower fuel burn (and maintenance cost).
Cheers

[WHBM]

The only Embraer cetified for use at London City is the 135. The full list of certified aircraft is here :

London City Airport Consultative Committee - Aircraft (http://www.lcacc.org/aircraft/index.html)

I too recall seeing the Embraer 170 sat on the Jet Centre ramp together with an Embraer Legacy (and pretty much filling it) some years ago The trials have obviously not been taken forward to completion.

[happyslapper]

They better get a move on then - the first ones arriving in Cityflyer colours will be here in less than 12 months.

[Tandemrotor]

Along with the A318s I've heard. In preparation for the imminent operation of the A380 into LCY! (Also in BACF colours!) :)

[DutchBird-757]

That (A380) would mean a loadfactor of only 6 to 10 percent on some routes... ;) Imagine the seatpitch we could have on that one... :ok:

[Mister Geezer]

BACF can occasionally manage that at the moment!

[midweeksaint]

WHBM

Isn't that list a little out of date. Below is the text of a press release from Embraer dated 18 June last year. What actually needs to be done to turn steep approach approval into LCY approval or are they one and the same? If not, I guess Embraer will wait until they have a customer to close the loop. Airbus must already have done so for the A318 in view of BA's order for the aircraft which will operate LCY-New York?

Cheers

EMBRAER 170 JET GRANTED APPROVAL FOR STEEP APPROACH
Certification represents the final step towards operating at London City Airport
São José dos Campos, June 18, 2007 – The EMBRAER 170 commercial jet has been granted steep approach certification by the Brazilian National Civil Aviation Agency (ANAC) and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). The EMBRAER 170 is the first E-Jets family aircraft to achieve this operating capability, which represents the final step towards flying into/out of London City Airport (LCY). The EMBRAER 190 will be the second E-Jet to incorporate the same functionality, and its certification is on schedule for December 2008.
The steep approach procedure was developed especially for operating at LCY because its instrument landing requires a glide slope of 5.5 degrees, as opposed to the standard 3.0 degrees. The certification was achieved after a successful development campaign that also included dedicated flights into that airport. “The capability for operating at London City Airport is something that we have promised to the market from the very beginning of the EMBRAER 170 design,” said Mauro Kern, Embraer’s Executive Vice President, Airline Market. “It was a big challenge overcome by our development team. European airlines can now count on an important tool to fly to/from the high yield LCY market.”
The EMBRAER 170 will perform the steep approach using a software solution developed on the existing fly-by-wire system, which means improved flying qualities and control and reduced pilot workload, with less weight and maintenance cost. The range of the aircraft (over 750 nautical miles, or 1,389 km) covers all current routes operated from LCY and gives more flexibility to airlines to add new destinations in a high yield market.
The operation of the EMBRAER 170 at LCY has long been awaited by the airport and the airlines, because the jet fleet operating there is almost 15 years old and now has a replacement alternative in a state-of-the-art aircraft that offers reliability, performance, comfort and adequate economics.

[WHBM]

I believe the list is up to date. LCY has its own unique approvals, separate to any other, which the press release doesn't quite bring out. Read it very carefully with this in mind and youll see how they never quite say they are approved at LCY.

LCY is not just about steep approach but departure performance as well, to clear Canary Wharf with an engine out, and when on easterlies to clear the proposed East London River Crossing bridge. The latter has not been built yet but will be about a mile downstream from the airport. on 28 finals/10 climbout.

[BAladdy]

With BACF launching what is there first seasonal flying program ex LCY the routes being of course GVA and LYS. Would BACF think about launching summer seasonal services from LCY.

For instance I think a flight from LCY to AGP and FAO would probably do quite well in particular in Club. They could operate the services Thursday to Monday targeting those looking for some long weekend weekend sunshine.

Also has BACF loads improved on the ZRH now WX have pulled off the route? and does anyone know how the BCN, WAW and AMS route performing??

Personally I couldn't see the point in adding 4 flights a day to AMS. A route that already has loads of capacity in it.

[egnxema]

BAladdy

It is all about Corporate mate - Corporates want LCY AMS flights, and if they have a global route deal with BA they want AMS services too.

A tough one for BA, because VLM and KLM have so many slots on the route, and it is common known fact in legal and financial firms that the VLM onboard product is better than BA's european sandwich and paper cup.

[AirLCY]

Isnt the only difference on VLM a china cup?

[egnxema]

That's one thing - but not the only thing.;)

I flew BA a couple of weeks ago. Got a sandwich in a plastic wrapper. a ba.com paper cup, and on way home had a G&T served in plastic cup.

Flew VLM to AMS last week. Cabin interior far better than BA's tired old 146s, VLM have these smart new tan leather reclining seats. More inch leg room. Catering served on a tray including a yoghurt and fruit. Yes, coffee in a proper cup, and Bar service uses propper glasses.

And a real nice touch - basket of sweets served as aircraft door is closed, and the crew member at the front asked if they could take my suit jacket and hung it in the wardrobe at front of cabin.

I noticed VLM won Best Regional Airline Europe and Best Cabin Crew Western Europe in September's Skytrax awards. Personally - I can see why.

In no way am I saying BA are bad, but I personally feel that at the moment VLM are better, plus they have a high frequency on LCY AMS.

[Caudillo]

and it is common known fact in legal and financial firms that the VLM onboard product is better than BA's european sandwich and paper cup

Apologies but have you noticed what's going on in the legal and financial world? Today was a flashback to 1987, even countries are in danger of foundering - and the talk in the boardrooms is on the relative merits of airlines' sandwiches?

[egnxema]

Caudillo,

Appreciate your point Caudillo, and today has been a hairy day for the banks. The various merits of different airlines are rarely discussed in board rooms, it is normally Travel Managers in the big corps that mandate travel policies and negogiate with carriers, and it is these Travel Managers that are always looks to get the best product at the best fare.

:ok:

[DutchBird-757]

Found this on a different forum;
==

BA's fully owned subsidiary airline BA Cityflyer is expected to announce in the next four to six weeks the findings of there renewal review. In a BACF communication to all his employees the BACF boss Peter Simpson wrote:

"Notwithstanding the current severe economic position, evaluations continue with the potential BAe RJ extension or fleet renewal options available to us. I do understand that rumours on this are abound, but I can tell you that no decision has yet been made. I expect that a decision ans approval will be forthcoming in approximately the next six weeks".

BACF based in EDI currently operate a fleet of 2 x RJ85's,10 x RJ100's and 2 x BAe146 leased from Flightline. They operate services from it's LCY hub to EDI, GLA, DUB, AMS, FRA, ZRH, BCN, MAD, NCE and WAW. They will also in December lauch seasonal ski services to GVA 5 x weekly and LYS 2 x weekly. Which will operate until the 28th March 2009.

They have just taken on a engineering hanger at EDI to help improve the aircraft reliability.

There has been many rumours about this renewal in the past. With the current economic problems BA might not want to splash out on new aircraft. So they may try to source more RJ85 aircraft instead. If the decision is taken to replace the fleet.The front runner to replace the RJ's if it goes ahead is a mix of Embraer 170 and 190 aircraft. In recent weeks and months representatives of Embraer where seen at BA HQ and BA managers where in Brazil visiting Embraer. It is thought BA want to expand the BACF fleet to ideally between 16 to18 aircraft. The order is believed to be likely to be made up of around 10 or 11 70 to 76 seater Embraer 170's and 6 to 7 Embraer 190's that will probably be configured to carry around 100 customers.

The 170 already has it's commercial jet steep approach certification. to enable it to operate into LCY and the 190 is expected to go for the same certification in December of this year. Further info available through link below

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CWU/is_/ai_n27279246 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CWU/is_/ai_n27279246)

However there has also been many whispers that they might replace the fleet with a fleet of 15 to 16 DH8-400 aircraft.

I guess we will find out soon enough
==

[Tandemrotor]

Hi Dutchbird-757

You don't say from which 'different forum' your quote is taken, nor from what date "the next six weeks" runs. However, and I admit speaking with absolutely no inside info, I suspect the clue to the future is given in this passage:
evaluations continue with the potential BAe RJ extension or fleet renewal options available to us.

In the current economic circumstances, BA are, very sensibly, blocking any major capital expenditure. The near future is looking pretty grim. This is absolutely not the time to be splashing the cash!

With respect to the E190: How many seats it 'normally' flies with is more significant than how BACF choose to configure it. (Normally 98 I believe?)

Of course, extending the RJ100 in service also comes with some crewing issues for BA to resolve! :rolleyes:

[Skipness One Echo]

Given that the RJ100s have only flown with Cityflyer Express and BA ( you know the progression ) and are only 10 years old, why do they have so many issues on reliability? Is the 146 series just a bit of a dog?

[turnipgreen]

It will certainly be interesting to see what way they turn. Is anyone else looking at the E170/190?

[DutchBird-757]

Tandemrotor. I found this article on the airliners.net forum. It was published by (I pressume) a BA insider (credible source this guy/girl) on the 10th. So I guess that the period ends late NOV.

Yes, the fleet renewal poses a problem for BA in the current economical climate. But in my opinion not spending the money on a new fleet poses a bigger threat to BA (CF's) position and future @ LCY. Things will pick up again and we've gotta be ready.

Hope they are gonna be smart and go for the Embraer. Let's wait and see shall we.

[Tandemrotor]

DB

All power to your elbow.

However, we have just accepted volountary redundancy from 500 managers, and more will go. We are grounding aircraft, (737, 747, and 757) cutting back heavily on the flying programme, forward bookings have fallen off a cliff, and our major corporate customers are being hung out to dry. Oh, plus the share price has halved in 3 weeks, and we are 'apparently' losing £2.6 million per day.

Where do you imagine BA will find the money for a new fleet??

OK. I grant you. We continue to hose down our other wholly owned subsidiary (Open Skies) but how long can that survive??

As far as positioning BACF for the future is concerned, is there any other airline investing in E170/190 for LCY ops at the moment?

Or are they all sticking with what they've got? :rolleyes:

[DutchBird-757]

What's up with 'All power to your elbow'?

Back to the topic. I know things are going really bad but that's exactly when you should invest and look past this unsettling time. BA's not losing £2.6 million a day it's the revenue that's down £2.6 million a day.

I think Swiss is going to the Embraer but don't know when or what type of combination. Couldn't find a link at the moment so it's just a rumor.

[Mister Geezer]

Swiss were indeed in line to receive some EJets, however I was told that these aircraft are off to KLM instead to replace some if not all of their F70/F100 fleet.

OK. I grant you. We continue to hose down our other wholly owned subsidiary (Open Skies) but how long can that survive??

As far as positioning BACF for the future is concerned, is there any other airline investing in E170/190 for LCY ops at the moment?


Tandemrotor... Your point is entirely sensible but at LCY the willy waving contest between BACF and CityJet can only intensify prior to this new LCY-JFK route kicking off. I can not see BA retreating from LCY in any shape or form before they have started this new route. I get the impression that the modus operandi of BA at LCY is firstly to gain as much market share as possible and secondly to generate profit! I would not be surprised if an announcement for new aircraft was made in the near future. BA seem content to throw money at BACF and the fact that BACF is wet leasing in extra aircraft during these unstable times speaks volumes. I feel it underlines that the business plan for BACF is not in line with the common industry theme of reduction in fleet size and route network.

[Tandemrotor]

DB

"All power to your elbow" is just another way of saying: Good luck to you!

MG

The A318 LCY-JFK service is a very good case in point. It is already being delayed, for reasons various. It is clearly targeted at London/NY bankers - An endangered species! I for one, wouldn't be too surprised to see this put on the back burner for a while!

Finally. "wet leasing in extra aircraft during these unstable times" seems eminently sensible to me. Since it gives BA ultimate flexibility. In other words, they can expand or contract rapidly, without having to consider a/c or crewing issues.

I'm not at all sure people realise precisely how grim the near future could easily become! (Fortunately for me, BA do!) We won't see the worst of this situation for a little while yet IMHO!

Edited to add:
it's the revenue that's down £2.6 million a day.

I stand corrected. So revenue is only down about £1billion per year! Oh that's ok then! Let's spend some cash on a peripheral part of the operation eh!!! :rolleyes:

[flyer55]

You say that the LCY - NYC route has been delayed but it hasnt as the route wasnt due to be launched unitl late 2009 and be operated by LGW crew !

Re Cityflyer it is good news for them to be expanding as long as it doesnt affect work for LGW crew !

[Carnage Matey!]

I think you'll find the LCY-JFK is a lot more tenuous than you think right now.

[marlowe]

Flyer55 so you are not pleased that a part of BA is possibly expanding then in these hard times?

[marlowe]

TR true but BA have pumped a lot of cash LCY way over the last 18 months must be a reason for this. Fair to say that BACF is exposed to the bank business at LCY, but no more so than CityJet/Airfrance Lufty & VLM who are in the same market, maybe BA are playing the long game at LCY and see its use in a different way in the future?

[Tandemrotor]

Sorry Marlowe, I had deleted my previous post regarding the exposure of BACF's customer base to the financial services industry.

Because of the location of LCY, I'm not sure there is a "different way"?

[marlowe]

Well TR guess you will have to go ask them what they have in mind !

[Mister Geezer]

Tandemrotor


Finally. "wet leasing in extra aircraft during these unstable times" seems eminently sensible to me. Since it gives BA ultimate flexibility. In other words, they can expand or contract rapidly, without having to consider a/c or crewing issues.

I agree with the flexibility that wet leasing provides. However I was really trying to highlight that whilst many airlines have halted expansion or tried to downsize, the fact that BA are more than willing to 'spend some cash on a peripheral part of the operation' speaks volumes. I perhaps have more access to information than most and I am a bit reluctant to say much more for obvious reasons, however what I will say is that BACF are operating on some routes that have intense competition and the load factors can at times be dreadful. Amazingly though this is often in line with forecast expectations, just so BACF can capture a share of the market. When taking that into account, in addition to the continued expansion, then one wonders why BA have pumped so much money into BACF to date, never mind the expansion on the horizon, which is even more poignant as BA starts to feel the pinch. When it comes to BA financing BACF, the words 'bottomless pit' springs to mind!

[MarkD]

I suppose BA could redirect the A318s to somewhere where money isn't likely to go out of style any time soon... like DXB?

[DutchBird-757]

I wish BA did some sustained, and high profile, advertising for her flights to and especially from LCY. For instance in the Highlife magazine or on airport billboards. Not only in London, or UK even, but even more so on the mainland. I've heard passenger comments that they didn't even knew they could fly to LCY from x with BA. Don't ask how they ended on board afterall...:confused:

I think we seem to be charging quite reasonable fares when comparing BA to the likes of VLM/KLM. (don't know about cityjet though)

@ Tandemrotor, sorry if I questioned you're comment with the 'elbow' thing. I was just unfamiliair with that expression and was wrong there. :ok:

[13Alpha]

I wish BA did some sustained, and high profile, advertising for her flights to and especially from LCY. For instance in the Highlife magazine or on airport billboards.

It's a good point. A recent Highlife had an article plugging Glasgow as a travel destination and said at the end "British Airways flies daily to Glasgow from both Gatwick and Heathrow". No mention of LCY.

And when there's a problem with a flight from LCY, the BA customer service machine seems utterly oblivious, as I mentioned over on this thread: http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/347074-fog-lcy-ba-cityflyer.html

:ugh:

13Alpha

[davidjohnson6]

DutchBird - there have been a lot of ads from BA near Canary Wharf in London about their routes from LCY.

[DutchBird-757]

Indeed, I've seen those. There were actually some really clever ads by BA. In my opinion the best way to make money is to invest some. (like prolonged advertising)

A couple of editions of the Highlife magazine with a page about their LCY operation or something like that would be a great extra. :ugh:

[BAladdy]

Hi all

Just going back to the whole fleet renewal/expansion post earlier in this thread.

When the old Cityflyer Express was merged into the former EOG operation at LGW they had a fleet of 16 RJ100 aircraft. The aircraft where later redeployed to BHX and MAN to become part of the British Airways Citiexpress fleet.

Between mid December 05 and May 06, when the RJ100's where with BA Citiexpress the six newest RJ's where removed from the fleet and went on to LX.

There regs where G-CFAB/C/D/E/F and H.

Does anyone know did the aircraft belong to BA??
If yes were they sold to LX or are they just leased to LX??
If BA did lease them does anyone know when is the lease up??
Could the aircraft end up coming back to BACF to form the fleet expansion??

Sorry about all the questions and thanks in advance for any info......

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

The word on the street at LCY yesterday, was that the Embraer 190, will arrive at LCY on the 1st November, to commence trials for 10 days.

[BALLSOUT]

All of the ex cityflyer RJ's were on lease from British Aerospace. The newest six were taken over by Swis. The word at the time was so B A could reduce the time left to the end of the leasing deal and they could get rid.
I think the first of the leases were due to end in 2007.

[CabinCrewe]

There has been extensive GLA - LCY publicity. The current "City. Slicker", "now up to 5 flights a day" publicity campaign in press and journals an example

[DutchBird-757]

I know the E190 has still gotta do it's certification but is there any 'other' reason behind it's visit to LCY? Heared some rumors about LH and the E190? Just doesn't sound right to me. They surely must have meant the C-jet. Any thoughts? :sad:

[OltonPete]

DutchBird-757

I believe LH have 18 x 190 and 12 x 195 on order starting in 2009.

I can't remember where they will be based but I am sure that
Munich was mentioned to eventually replace the RJ85's and on
that basis I would have thought LCY will be in their thoughts over
the next few years as one of the operating airports subject to certification.

The split of the Lufthansa 190 and 195 order was mentioned on
another forum but I can't remember if there was an actual source
or if it was just a rumour.

Pete

[DutchBird-757]

@ OltonPete. Thanks for the info! If you find any source/link please post it here. Couldn't find anything on the Embraer or LH website.

One sweet looking a/c. Any more news then on the test trials by the E190 at LCY?

[RJ100]

DB-
Was on the flight international website about 2 weeks ago. 30 aircraft a mixture of 190's and I thought 195's. Search on Flight.. I'm sure it's there.

RJ.

Ah, here it is:

14/10/08

"Lufthansa has detailed its order for Embraer E-Jets, confirming it will take a mixture of E-190 and larger-capacity E-195 aircraft from the Brazilian airframer.
The German operator in June 2007 firmed its commitment for 30 Embraer 190 aircraft for delivery from 2009. The order was flexible in that it could include E-190s or E-195s.
While releasing its third quarter order backlog this week, Embraer revealed that Lufthansa has since decided to take 18 E-190s and 12 E-195s.
A Lufthansa spokesman confirms these figures, noting that, as delivery time nears, it is common practice for a carrier to supply a more precise break-down of its fleet plan.
"This more detailed order now reflects our belief in the strong capacity demand over the next years in this segment," says Lufthansa senior VP corporate fleet Nico Buchholz."

[DutchBird-757]

Thanks RJ100. I wonder if that messes up 'our' delivery slots/scheduele? :ok: (I'm not implying anything here...:=)

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know what is going on with BACF's fleet tommorrow.

EDINBURGH

Just noticed they have just Cancelled the BA8713 EDI/LCY which is usually operated by the Flightline (94 seater )146. However the return leg BA8714 is still operating as normal ex LCY. Guessing aircraft is positioning SEN/LCY. Also BA8711 the 07:20 EDI/LCY is instead of being operated by the usual RJ100 is now being operated by a 77 seater Bae146.

GLASGOW

BA8721 which is the 07:00 GLA/LCY aswell as BA8722/8725/8726/8727 LCY/GLA/LCY/GLA/LCY are also to be operated by another 77 seater Bae146.

ZURICH

BA8760 (07:45) ZRH/LCY and BA8763/8764/8767/8768 instead of being operate by the usual RJ85 now being operated by a Bae146-200

The 3 x daily LCY/DUB and the LCY/EDI/LCY/NCE/LCY/EDI Flightline are all operating with the Bae146 aicraft.

So does anyone know what is happening?? Anyone know the operator or even the registration of the two 77 seater and the extra 90+ seater 146 aicraft??

Cheers in advance for any replies.

[13Alpha]

BACF Schedule 27th October

Does anyone know what is going on with BACF's fleet tommorrow.

EDINBURGH

Just noticed they have just Cancelled the BA8713 EDI/LCY which is usually operated by the Flightline (94 seater )146


How interesting.
I was booked on the BA8713 0810 EDI - LCY on Monday 27th (i.e. in around 8 hours from now). If it hadn't been for reading your post BALaddy, I'd have woken at 0600, taxied to the airport to arrive just after 0700 to find my flight had been cancelled. Perhaps, if my luck was in, I'd have been rebooked on the 0905 or if not, I'd have to stand in a queue of grumpy people at the BA, sorry I mean Aviance, desk to have my flight changed.

Thanks to your post, I've just called BA and they have confirmed that the BA8713 has indeed been cancelled and a nice American lady has rebooked me on the 0905. As a result of this I can now warn folks in London I'll be an hour late, cancel my early taxi, have an hour longer in bed, and will be in a much better mood tomorrow morning.

However:

At the time of my booking, ba.com asked for my mobile phone number to be used in the event of any changes to my flights. In spite of flying countless times with BA over the last few years, earning a gold card in the process, and been subject to numerous disrupted and cancelled flights during that time, I've NEVER had a single text message from BA. Why ?
It's clear from your message that people inside BA knew about the cancellation well in advance. Why hasn't anyone made any effort to contact the passengers ? Tomorrow there's going to be a planeful of disgruntled passengers at EDI and BA's reputation is going to get (yet) another kicking.It could all be so different. If this were an isolated incident I might be sympathetic, but this has now happened to me multiple times.

Why, when a flight is delayed or cancelled, can't BA proactively, using the information it already has, contact its customers and tell them rather than wait for a customer service calamity to unfold at the airport ?

13Alpha

[Skipness One Echo]

I was on the Heathrow Express recently when BA texted me to say that my flight to ZRH in two hours had been cancelled due to weather, gales at LHR throwing the program and all. It does happen but I suspect CitiFlier are the poor relations as ever alas.

[BAladdy]

Alpha 13 the only reason I knew it was cancelled was because my dad who's company had booked him on that flight called me to say that BA had emailed him to say the flight was cancelled. Then about 20 mins later he got a text from BA. I know that up until 8pm the flight was still showing as operating.

My dad's moved his meeting to early tommorrow evening so has been rebooked on a later flight and looking at the loads on the first two flights I am guessing most of the other customers have contacted BA themselves.

So it wasn't due to any inside knowledge it was down to my dad telling me.

If as you say you are a gold card holder my advise to ensure this never happens is contact the BA exec club gold line and ask them to check that the contact info they have on record is correct.

My dad, who is a gold card holder had this problem with no text messages during disruption in the past. He found that the information on his exec card record was wrong. Even though you enter a mobile number at the time of booking the system automatically pair up the booking with your exec file and puts the info on file as your primary conatct. So if this is wrong then no message will be recieved.

You could also check if you have time with the Aviance/BA ticket desk staff in EDI or you will probably find the ticket desk at LCY more helpful, that the number on your booking has been captured.

What my dad has started doing is after the booking has been made he goes into manage my booking on BA.COM checks the booking and enters his mobile number. It only takes a minute and since then he has had no problem. Contact BA also send out emails automatically when a flight is cancelled asking you to contact them

When it comes to why the flight is cancelled. I can only guess that the problem is with the aircraft in Southend where Flightline the operators on behalf of BA Cityflyer are based.

Skipness One Echo for your information Cityflyer are not a poor relation as they use the same booking and notification system as mainline services.

[WHBM]

Once again one of BA's aircraft was dumped in the weeds round by the Jet Centre at London City all weekend, presumably another longer-term tech aircraft.

How much engineering presence or spares holding do BA have at London City ?

[HOVIS]

How much engineering presence or spares holding do BA have at London City ?

Dunno about spares but there has been an internal vacancy for several Licensed Engineers for months. The money is no good and the hassle of getting to LCY doesn't bare thinking about.

[13Alpha]

Thanks BALaddy.

I checked the mobile number on my booking and in the Exec Club "my account" section at ba.com and they are both correct. On calling the Exec Club they confirmed that they had the correct number too, although the person I spoke to was going to do some other checks but then her screen went blank and promised to call back.

(I'm glad I called the premium "dedicated Silver cardholder" helpline number... I suppose the difference with the premium number and the regular one is that you get through to someone who can't help you more quickly ? :rolleyes:)

It could be as you say that this is just a problem with my EC card record, but on a previous occasion when a EDI-LGW flight was cancelled (with at least 8 hours notice) the whole planeload of pax turned up at EDI at the normal time. And similar problems with other flights departing from LCY. So I think there are wider problems than just isolated data errors...

Aside from the personal inconvenience, as an IT consultant it pains me to see companies put technology in place to deliver good customer service and then squander it by lacking the ability (or the will) to use it properly.

Thanks again for your (and your Dad's ) info though, it earned me an extra hour in bed :D

13Alpha

[mini-jumbo]

When it comes to why the flight is cancelled. I can only guess that the problem is with the aircraft in Southend where Flightline the operators on behalf of BA Cityflyer are based.

Flightline's 146 operated BA8711 from EDI - LCY, then resumed normal duties, i.e. 8714 LCY - EDI.

[BAladdy]

That is strange because the Flightline 146 that operated the EDI has 94 seats this one only had 77 pax.

He also said the aircraft that operated the the BA8714 came inbound from DUB as BA8462. This resulted in a delay of 2hrs 20mins on the BA8463..........

[WHBM]

Another of the bizarre improvisations at London City that get done on the day.

When CityJet operated to Belfast last year, at least one cancellation was covered by putting pax on the next Dublin flight and putting them in taxis from there !

[FE Hoppy]

Has there been any official word about the E-jet and BA C?

[DutchBird-757]

No, and it could still take another 4 weeks. If it isn't postponed yet again.

[DutchBird-757]

Does anyone know when the 5th daily FRA rotation starts?

[RJ100]

Thought it was the 4th daily FRA starting. ? Not heard about a 5th.

RJ.

[DutchBird-757]

Hmmm... must have got it mixed up with the Glasgows. :ugh:Haven't been to FRA for ages. 4 x to FRA it is then.

[DutchBird-757]

British Airways are to withdraw the London Gatwick-Dublin service from 29 March 2009. Customers will be reaccommodated onto an alternative BA codeshare flight operated by Aer Lingus.


More information

Customers in possession of a ticket for whom the alternative flight is not suitable are covered by the following guidelines:

Rebook onto an alternative available British Airways codeshare flight operated by Aer Lingus to the same destination within a 3-day period before or after the scheduled departure time of the original flight. If the same booking class is not available, the next lowest class may be booked within the same cabin. This will be at no additional cost to the customer, and if required, the validity of the ticket may be extended.

or

Refund the ticket purchased to the original form of payment.

Affected passengers should contact their local British airways office to rebook.

Please Note:If the customers ticket includes a transfer to/from another BA service and is no longer within the minimum connection time for flights, the above option may also be used to rebook the transfer service
.
--

Could be good for the LCY-DUB service though.

[Cyrano]

Could be good for the LCY-DUB service though.

Is it just me, or does it illustrate a certain lack of joined-up thinking that the commercial policy for passengers affected by BA's DUB-LGW cancellation doesn't even include the option of rebooking on BA Cityflier's DUB-LCY?

[Haven't a clue]

YES...................................

[Tandemrotor]

Presumably, people who book to fly to/from LGW do so because that is where they want to fly to/from??? I guess LCY was an option at the time of booking?

Doesn't seem to be unreasonable to expect the pax to wish to retain the same airport pairs? Why wouldn't BA offer flights on their codeshare partner's flights?

Is LCY-DUB still flown by Flightline???:rolleyes:

Maybe there's more money in a 'codeshare' pax at LGW, than a 'wet lease' one at LCY?

[davidjohnson6]

Could also be that those flying into LGW have a significant proportion of leisure-based pax, while those flying into LCY are heavily business-focussed (and paying a much higher fare).

If BA reckon they can still fill their planes from LCY-DUB to almost full with high fares, why let the backpackers who are paying peanuts take the seats instead ?

BA can still argue that by rebooking these people onto a codeshare flight into LGW that they are preserving the exact airport pair and supplying you with a ticket on a plane.

[Tandemrotor]

Of course the LGW pax could also be connecting with BA longhaul services. (The World doesn't end at GVA) But why let the facts get in the way of a good whinge!

[traveller42]

LGW passengers could also be business travellers for whom LHR is a right pain to get to and from. LCY is a lot more accesible than LHR for a lot of east Surrey, west Kent and south / south east London. The Jubilee line from London Bridge to Canning Town and then the DLR really works very well. I use LCY to replace many of the lost BA LGW short haul destinations.
JP

[Cyrano]

If BA reckon they can still fill their planes from LCY-DUB to almost full with high fares, why let the backpackers who are paying peanuts take the seats instead ?

Thanks, David, that's the best laugh I've had all day! "Almost full with high fares"! Hysterical! (I guess you haven't seen the BA loads on LCY-DUB recently then?) :hmm:

[racer09]

LCY - DUB is now being flown by a mix of BACF and Flightline.

[HZ123]

With BA's use of Flightline for round about the last 20 years never seeming to deminish might it not have been a better prospect to have purchased FL in the first place and got them to run the LCY franchaise operation. We must have bought there aged a/c several times over and they must be concerned every time one of our management sneeze.

[32SQDN]

Just confirmed - 6 students pilots to start type rating on 26th Jan with BACF as trainee entry pilots from the BACF Mentored Pilot Scheme at FTE.

[flyer55]

What a surprise that BA Cityflyer picking up LGW routes , now they have GVA / Zrh as well as Dub!

Whats next ?

[Mister Geezer]

With BA's use of Flightline for round about the last 20 years never seeming to deminish might it not have been a better prospect to have purchased FL in the first place and got them to run the LCY franchaise operation.

That is a bit harsh on the front line BACF workers!

[marlowe]

flyer55 what else do you want to give them?

[archenergy]

I have an interview next week with BA CityFlyer for a first officer position. The HR lady who called me said they are about to "recruit heavily" hence the invite.

Looking through this thread there's been all kinds of speculation about fleet changes. Of course I will find out at my interview but before then asking on here - will I have to fly the RJ? Or is there a chance they're about to introduce some Embraers or even A318s?

[DutchBird-757]

The third time in a couple of days I heard this story. Looks like they're up to something in Didsbury.

And scrap the A318 of your list. The announcement should be made before the end of this month, if it isn't gonna be postponed again. Just go for the RJ option.

[marlowe]

Archenergy the RJ is the the aircraft type at the moment and thats not going to change in the short term, long term who knows?

[Mister Geezer]

Is this recruitment to fill any current shortfall or are more RJs expected?

[towser]

The word is that this recruitment is to overcrew us so that we have sufficient flight crew to enable us to introduce the a new type.

[archenergy]

And has an announcement been made yet regarding the introduction of a new type? I don't want to turn up for an interview this week and embarrass myself not knowing about such things.

[RJ100]

No announcement has been made yet. You'll probably find out in hear first before we do at work! That seems to have been the case with past announcements.

RJ

[Certa Cito]

The new type will be a Q400 :}

Enjoy :)

(I am glad I am not waiting for yet another one of CP's announcements)

[DutchBird-757]

Any source?

[happyslapper]

Dutchbird - pay no attention to Certa Cito's comment about Q400s.

Its just another pointless comment from someone who should forget the past and get on with their current jobs.

The announcement will come and you wont be disappointed.
Its just a matter of time, have patience.

[Railgun]

What will that be? The closure of ba cityflyer and the opening of openskys on mainland uk?

[happyslapper]

Railgun

I think you need to get some sleep.
Having said that - you appear to be dreaming already.

[flyer55]

Yeah the announcement is coming and LHR , that will be interesting !

Announcement about LGW soon too !

[HZ123]

Something is happening because the BA intranet has blocked access to pprune this week. I have had a look at the threads and cannot see anything in the last week to get upset about. Maybe Waterside want to minimise any leakages. Of course it may be a number of large reductions in services throughout the network and Scotland being left to CX.

[Tandemrotor]

And who the f**k is CX?

[Skipness One Echo]

Cathay Pacific clearly taking over the UK domestic services (!) How long have I been asleep for???

[davidjohnson6]

HZ123 - I can think of a very good reason for the BA internet proxy servers to block access to PPRune, namely to ensure that when at work people get on with their work instead of spending time gossiping about rumours !

[Toastal]

Flybe will undoubedly take over Edi/Gla to London Gatwick as of March 09 with Emb 195's, with BA pulling out (don't know about Man) :{

T:suspect:

[cornishsimon]

BA pulling out?
Source?

[air2000dub]

The EDi/GLA - LGW with Flyb has been a very strong rumour over the last few months. There is now an E195 based in EDI . Find it hard to believe that they are sticking a E195 in EDI just to do SOU and BHX.

[Deep and fast]

Maybe they are keeping the routes warm with an E195 till cityflyer get them for themselves.

D and F :8

[cornishsimon]

brilliant news!
have you got a link for the story ?

[32SQDN]

................looks like Certo Cita was right.

Have they bought them or are they leasing them?

Anyone know?

[BALLSOUT]

Not good news for the guys and gals at cityflyer. i would say that this is the start of the company being lined up for flybe to take them over.

[silverstreak]

Just what AF/Cityjet wanted to hear!

Got to hand it to the 'professionals' in Didsbury and Waterside... :ugh:

Just a matter of time until flybe swallow the whole lot up.

BA didnt want a 'prop' fleet, so they got rid of the ATP and Dash8s. They got rid of the routes that these aircraft flew - to flybe.com and took a share in said airline too.

NOW we see that BACityflyer will take Dash8-400s! Whats the mainstay of flybes fleet? Rumour has it that flybe will in due course, take over the LGW-EDI/GLA route with 190s. Bring it on!

Think about it. Flybe have a FULL engineering base at EDI/GLA with spares for the Q400 and 190. Whats the cost / timescale of re-training the BACF engineers. Costings and timescales too for crews to convert...

BA has maintained its stake in flybe for a reason. Theres now another reason for keeping it and possibly upping it, and giving flybe some more work!

[cornishsimon]

I wouldnt say so to be honest, the LCY operation is very successful & profitable by all accounts, why else would BA of kept it in the first place during the sell off to flybe?

If anything i would think that we could see a gradual increase in operations from cityflyer and i wouldnt be too surprised to see the cityflyer brand taking on some of the mainline domestic services ex LGW and i also wouldnt be surprised if cityflyer keep the rj's and keep flightline

Also, Flybe doesnt operate Nextgen q400's do they ?

[Deep and fast]

Where's the link?

Just did a search on all of the key words and nothing!

Wind up? I hope so or BACityflyer don't know their market very well. :uhoh:

D and F

Just been on the Q400 website and nowt there either.

[32SQDN]

.........there's nothing on the BA press office website.........yet!

[RJ100]

Oh great! Hope it's not true. I'd prefer to fly around in a nice new Emb vs. a Q400. RJ.

:ouch:

Just been looking and can't say I've found anything on the either website about this.

RJ.

[silverstreak]

Wheres the Q400 Bombardier link gone... Its dissapeared...

[Deep and fast]

Hopefully the link has gone along with the Q400 threat!!!

[cornishsimon]

if that really was a wind up all iv got to say is..........


why why why??

whats the point?

havnt you got anything better to do with your time?:mad:

[Certa Cito]

Got to hand it to the 'professionals' in Didsbury and Waterside... :ugh:

Just a matter of time until flybe swallow the whole lot up.


I think you will find the professionals reside at Exeter :ok:

[Skipness One Echo]

But that's the plan. They called themselves British European, use BE as an IATA code ( formerly BEA if you had to ask ), fly BA codeshares, have former BA staff. Do you really think BA have handed over everything outside of London to flybe and surrendered all that market share willy nilly?

I bet they'll be bought out by BA before too long. BA get all the routes back and make money for the first time ever as staff are not on BA Ts and Cs. It's not BA, it's flybe operating as BA, keep it at arms length. For the first time BA can afford to fly people from A to B outside of Heathrow.

I'll get my coat and outrun the angry ex Rashers now.....

[Railgun]

Think you are right there. I am just not sure if/when they will start shipping lgw routes over to BE. That will be the big make or break point as it could remove all the lgw ba ramp side from the equation as they did in the regions..

[happyslapper]

"...............looks like Certo Cita was right" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it just stuff you 'want to hear' that you will believe or is it everything thats written on this site ?

How about this then -

Concorde was a conspiracy, and never really existed.
Jack and Jill in fact never met - but traveled up the hill on separate occasions.
The moon is made of edam and not cheddar as commonly believed.
We are all about to receive a tax cut.
PPrune actually stands for - proven factual statements as certified in uk law.

[DutchBird-757]

So we're back to the beginning; we still know nothing.

[32SQDN]

"...............looks like Certo Cita was right" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it just stuff you 'want to hear' that you will believe or is it everything thats written on this site ?


Calm down dear!

As far as I was concerned, I was reading a genuine press release, not listening to rumour-mongers. There is nothing that I particularly 'want to hear', just taking an interest in the industry.

[marlowe]

You have to laugh, where has the Dash8 rumour come from again ? Well it came from a bored crew sat in the canteen in LCY about 4 days ago who between them decided to see how far they could recycle the Dash8 rumour again, even saying it was Q300s! Hmmmmm four days to get on the internet that was slooow!! There is nothing on the Cityflyer intranet about Dashes and i guess the fact that you cant move in Didsbury for Embraer models is just a smokescreen .

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Well, Marlowe, as an ex BA Connect employee, I seem to recall lots of models of the Embraer familly and also, a 757 proudly on display in Disdbury on my visits to HQ Didsbury and I know the former CP of BA Connect would frequently talk about fleet replacement, with mutters about the 170 and 190 to replace the 145 and that was when BA were making loads of money! The rest is history now, but what I would say, is I hope that Big Airways has the courage, in these uncertain times, to make a very significant and substantial investment in fleet replacement for Cityflyer whether, it is EMB 170's, 190's or even the money making Dash Q400, it really does not matter, what is more important, is that we all have jobs.

In my heart, I wish all those at Cityflyer - and I have a lot of good friends and ex colleagues working there all the very best for the future.

[..airman]

But that's the plan. They called themselves British European, use BE as an IATA code ( formerly BEA if you had to ask ), fly BA codeshares, have former BA staff. Do you really think BA have handed over everything outside of London to flybe and surrendered all that market share willy nilly?

I bet they'll be bought out by BA before too long. BA get all the routes back and make money for the first time ever as staff are not on BA Ts and Cs. It's not BA, it's flybe operating as BA, keep it at arms length. For the first time BA can afford to fly people from A to B outside of Heathrow.

I'll get my coat and outrun the angry ex Rashers now.....


Let's not forget BA already own 15% of FlyBE, the stake was acquired when they sold of the regional ops of BACON.

I always think the history of BA and it's regional affiliates is very interesting....and by history I include the pre-BA period of BOAC/BE. The airline has a long history of closing down/selling off regional arms and then bit by bit taking them back under its wing, in recent years as Franchise carriers. To be honest I have always felt that Eastern almost has the best fit to become the next BA Franchise carrier, but yes, FlyBE would have to be on the list, once the strategy changes again, the oly thing is, I think FlyBe is actually too big for the games BA and it's predecessors played in the past.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

I assume, Airman, like me you have been in the industry for quite some time, in my case, 38 years come January 2009. Its odd, when you reflect back over those years, Cambrian Airlines, Northeast Airlines, BEA, when the then State owned airline had bases in ABZ, GLA, EDI,NCL,LPL,BHX and probably one or two more bases that elude me. So what do we have now? Flybe, doing exactly what BEA did some 30 + years ago, with bases in the very same locations, operating regional services and all power to thier elbow. Its called the Circle of Life. Not unlike the 1960's when retailing was focused upon city centres, then during the early, mid seventies, it was fashionable to develop out of town shopping centres, such as Milton Keynes, however, come the 80's, then b***er my old boots, the town planners thought they had better bring back retailing into the city centres, and of course during the 90's a swing back to out of town and here we are now, with huge developments back in the city centres, which is what I feel about regional aviation. I predict that over the next few years, what we shall witness, is Britsh Airways,( if its not bought by the Chinese or Gulf States) being a BOAC again, and the European bit been sold/closed down and let the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair compete in that market, with Flybe concentrating on their own successful business in the regions.

[..airman]

Flatspin, I've actually only been in the industry a few years, but even in the current world believe there are a lot of lessons to be learnt from the past, and always think it's interesting how aspects of history repeat themselves. Maybe I just spent too much time reading about these things as a kid and am now just a geek!

Funnily enough, Cambrian and Northeast were probably the two airlines that came to mind the most, prior to the whole Manx/Loganair/BRA saga, when thinking about the BA/BOAC/BEA strategies. Cambrian were picked up and dropped so often it's ridiculous.

[flyer55]

Personally I hope flybe dont take over the lgw - edi/gla routes, if lgw was going to loose it then maybe they should allow the glasgow base to operate the lgw shuttles !

[Skipness One Echo]

BA haven't had a GLA pilot base in years and the cabin crew base that is to close are LHR operating.

[BAladdy]

Hi All

Think we are going a bit off the subject in this thread, it is meant to be about BA Cityflyer. Not BA at LGW or the future of BA at LGW.

I understand that the rumours are out there that BACF could end up with DH4 aircraft. The same aircarft type that BE currently operate. However there isn't now or has been spoeculation that BE will take over BACF services.

I have read all the threads with interest but maybe they would be better posted on the British Airways, Gatwick or Flybe threads

[silverstreak]

flybe are positioning themselves nicely for much bigger things...

With BAs initial investment and possible further, flybe will continue to grow and operate more and more of the domestic routes and possible European routes. They have the aircraft, crews and backup ready to roll.

For BA to invest in a 'new type' for LCY (Dash8, ERJ Series....) its a hell of an investment, for a niche market - albeit a money maker on EDI - LCY at least for the time being...

To save time, money and heeps of hassel, flybe could jump in and operate with 'minimal' disruption. Orders for the 190 can be switched to the 170 at flybes request.

Its not impracticle - not impossible and may just be what BA see as the answer to a prickly thorn in the mainline side.

[cornishsimon]

so if the end of bacf at lcy is near why oh why is bacf actively recruiting cabin crew?

[Deep and fast]

And pilots

D and F

[BALLSOUT]

They need pilots and cabin crew as a function of their business, so if they are short of them they will continue to recruit. I have seen many companies in the past, recruiting while going out of business so it means nothing.
I am not saying cityflyer are going out of business, just drawing a comparison. As I have said in previous posts, BA kept the RJ fleet on when the rest went to flybe, because of the expensive leases. These are now nearing their end, making further Flybe integration the most probable future.
IMHO

[Flatspin_Fumble]

BAladdy, is probably correct, some are steering this thread off course.

Whether, Flybe takeover the routes from GLA and EDI to LGW is pure speculation, as most of us know, word on the street, is that over the last 20 years the (BA) route has made no significant revenue to their earnings and I stress that is pure hear say. Personally, I would doubt that BACF could make a profit on it because of the high operating costs of the RJ, unless they had a significant contract with a bank or similar institution to guarantee cash flow. However, if they were to refleet, with EMB 170's, 190's, or Dash 8 Q400's, is another matter and I wish them well if such an opportuntity arose - but it does seem perhaps more than a coincidence that Flybe still has options on a further 12 EMB 195's, and of course there is also the BMI Lufty thing, but that would be completely out of order on this thread.

I rest my case and will post no more on this topic. Best wishes and good luck to all concerned, because, make no mistake, we shall all need it over the next 12 months, if not longer.

[dicanio10]

I'd just be happy getting rid of those bl**dy awful cramped RJ100's off the EDI>LCY route. I'd settle for a nice 400 or an Embraer and a bit more bum space.:ok:

[Tandemrotor]

I'd just be happy getting rid of those bl**dy awful cramped RJ100's off the EDI>LCY route.

the RJ is not a comfortable seat, too squashed for a lardy like me,

dicanio10

Maybe a change in diet/exercise might help? :}

[dicanio10]

Change of diet? Exercise? Mighty stature? I am hurt:eek:
Mrs DiCanio10 insists by behind is my best feature. Doesn't say much for the rest of me:rolleyes:
Seriously, I'm not the only one to complain about the width of the seats. Fed up with flying elbows when trying to eat breakfast as well:ugh:

[StbdD]

It's been said before that the only people who complain about 'narrow' seats are those of a 'mightier' stature, shall we say!

Ah, but one suspects it's seldom been said to their faces. 6'3", 17 stone forwards are after all sensitive souls who feel public seats should accomidate them.

[parky747]

Would be nice to see a fleet of these ERJ170 in BA fleet

Aviation Design - Modified Airliner Photos British Airways Embraer ERJ-170 Combo (http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00000586)

[DutchBird-757]

Announcement should come by end of first week of December acc to company. If not, they'll let us know.

[BALLSOUT]

If and when they make any announcment, the staff will be the last to know!

[Flatspin_Fumble]

So DB what you are saying is the Company will make an anouncement that there will in fact not be an announcement and they will announce that announcement, early next month to announce, that there will be no announcement.

[DutchBird-757]

Yep, that's it! :ok: It went from Sep to Oct to Nov and to somewhere before christmas. We'll wait and see. Still negotiating with shareholders and a/c manufacturers. 33/33/33%...

[Flatspin_Fumble]

not sure what the 33/33/33%... relates to, let's hope within the next few days the outcome - will be a major boost for all concerned

[DutchBird-757]

Either; renew RJ leases, Dash 8's or Embraers...

[happyslapper]

And the remaining 1% would be --- make no announcement at all!

Now that the company will be saving 2.5% vat on the aircraft perhaps we could use the savings to spec up the options, maybe sat nav, or alloy wheels.

[Tandemrotor]

Are we allowed to place bets?

[RJ100]

Yes place your bets..... Just need someone to work out the odds..

I'm betting EMB170/190

RJ.:O

[DutchBird-757]

Ok, count me in. I'm gonna go for the longshot; the A318. :ouch: Just because I'm bored right now.

[HZ123]

Here at Waterside I can assure you that there are far greater issues than concerning ourselves with CX's needs. I doubt there will be any announcement this year as your loads are not that brill and may well get worse. The high EDI sectors mainly put on for the coporate deals with RBS a deal that now looks insecure and fragile.

[Tandemrotor]

HZ123

From your post, are we correct in thinking nobody told you CX (as long as you mean BACX and not Cathay Pacific!) was sold - or more accurately, given away - some years ago? :rolleyes:

Maybe that's part of the trouble with Waterworld - Always on the ball eh!

[FlyboyUK]

Nice one Tandemrotor. Hope all is well down south :ok:

[Emb190]

Have my new name in preparation :ok:

[Skipness One Echo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but as the main revenue driver, the LCY-EDI service is ( was ) completely bankrolled by a now panic stricken RBS, are you guys honestly expecting major capital investment? HOPE you get it but.......

[happyslapper]

Yes - Yes we are.

[HZ123]

I was affectionately refering to BA CityFlyer which was a well run profit making outfit until we got to grips with it. I cannot recall any airline / outfit that we have spawned / bought / modified that we can actually boast of that has been a great success. Before you mention 'Go' most of us forget that it had a blank cheque when it started up and BA's finance behind it. I agree with Skipness, at present, as I said there are far greater problems aside from LHR there is LGW which is beset with financial woes far greater than new a/c for LCY.

[Tandemrotor]

I was affectionately refering to BA CityFlyer

I don't think BACF was ever known as 'CX'???

Maybe I'm wrong???

[Skipness One Echo]

I was affectionately refering to BA CityFlyer which was a well run profit making outfit until we got to grips with it.

You mean CityFlyer Express, FD rather than CX.

I think the best example I ever heard was the CWL-GLA route that was flown by the Jetstream 41. This had been a good route for Manx ( Europe ) and later British Regional Airlines. The day and hour that BA took them over, the different internal accounting structures flagged the route as a heavy loss maker and it was binned, so begininng the dismantling that ended with the sale to flybe a few years later.
I think this is the reason they need to keep BA CitiFlyer at arms length, as the moment they bring RJ100s flying from LCY in house, it will show major losses, more so than now if that's the case.

Such is the sheer complexity of running a large business! I'm not criticising, I just wish we were all better at it, myself included. This is also the reason that many feel patience is at an end with continued bleeding cash at Gatwick.

[virginblue]

What is the effect of Flightline going belly-up on BA Cityflyer? Any disruption of the schedules?

[midweeksaint]

London City web site shows 14.10 arrival from EDI (BA8719) cancelled but the afternoon Dublin looks on for now. Apparently G-FLTF has been returned to Southend and I guess G-FLTB will follow. Perhaps BACF will be in the market for more wet-lease very soon? Or an opportunity to optimise capacity / utilisation of existing fleet?