BA Cityflyer

[virginblue]

...you mean a full load with max fuel? So Embraer apparently has come up with a "Embraer 190 JATO"?

[Skipness One Echo]

Given that LCY is likely to have both A318s and some ERJ-170s / 190s on the deck at once, are the above types limited to Stands 21-24 only?

If the ERJ-190 is too big for the main apron, what happens if LH or LX want to fly them in?

[Flatspin_Fumble]

virginblue,

I assume you know what an EMB 170/190 is, regarding your comment about a JATO.

[Expressflight]

According to figures I have to hand, the 'standard' E190 would have a range of 500-600nm with a full pax load off the LCY runways in ISA conditions. The BA aircraft may have performance upgrades of course.

[WHBM]

Prague would be a good fit for the leisure market and would do well year round.
Prague would not be the best choice for BA in Central Europe out of LCY, as it does not offer any onward connectional opportunities for them. Budapest would be a much better choice as fellow OneWorld carrier Malev can then provide feed and connections to all across Eastern Europe. LCY already handles quite an amount of such traffic, but it is all scooped up by Lufthansa and Swiss through their own hubs.

Prague would be a better destination out of LCY for CityJet/Air France, as they in turn could offer connections on fellow SkyTeam carrier CSA. Prague, for BA and for OneWorld, is effectively a dead end. As far as leisure traffic to Prague is concerned, much of this is more Stansted-pricing oriented, and the Stag Weekends there appear to have peaked - doubtless much to the relief of the Czechs !

[Cyrano]

virginblue,

I assume you know what an EMB 170/190 is, regarding your comment about a JATO.

I think the original comment was intended as humour. You know, a joke, something funny, which is not necessarily true... :ugh:

[virginblue]

I think the original comment was intended as humour. You know, a joke, something funny, which is not necessarily true...

I think Flatspin_Fumble's remark was also lighthearted as he hinted at the fact that in a strict sense, a jet like the E170/190 is always jet-assisted at take-off :O I should have used "RATO" instead, but I thought "JATO" was better known (althought "JATO" is also used in the context of jets, not only props). :)

Anyway, it appears that without some nice rockets bolted to the wings, the E190 cannot make it to places like FCO, MAD, ARN, HEL, WAW or VIE with a full load. That is if the 500-600nm perimeter is correct.

[DutchBird-757]

Looks like 'AR' will be gone by either today or tomorrow. It's just her bare fuselage that's left and cranes were in place on saturday morning. Stands 21-24 were closed and link 'D' not available.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Virginblue

pretty much spot on with your post.
FF

[BAladdy]

I have been trawling the internet to see if I can find in the way of info about BA's E-Jets.

I came across a news release from Embraer which says the E190's max range from LCY will be 800nm

Embraer - Empresa Brasileira de Aeronáutica S.A. (http://www.embraer.com/english/content/imprensa/press_releases_detalhe.asp?id=2334)

The E170's range is 750nm with a full load

Embraer Commercial Jets (http://www.embraercommercialjets.com/english/content/ejets/default.asp?tela=efficiency)

Which is much further than I expected.

[virginblue]

750nm would still rule out destinations such as FCO and HEL. MAD, WAW or ARN would be quite a stretch and might be out of range as well.

[Expressflight]

The figures I quoted were for the AR version, for which Embraer quote a runway length required of 1,267m for a range of 500nm, while the BA order is for the SR variant. I cannot find any performance figures for the latter variant, but presumably this accounts for its greater range capability out of LCY.

[virginblue]

What improvements does the "SR" model have relative to the baseline model - other than having a steep approach button combined with a low-density layout? The engines are the same, IIRC, the structure is the same, so what exactly is the story behind it? Even Embraer has little, if any details on the "SR" in the public domain.

[marlowe]

So what is the correct figures for these aircraft on range? the RJs do MAD now, and did WAW ok with a limited load on the routes but whats the point in replacing an airframe with an airframe with less ange?

[DutchBird-757]

The current MAD route is about 815 miles. We can do it with a full load (RJ85) if there's a bit of wind. Preferebly from 10. ISA it's restricted slightly.

Don't worry about the figures just yet. As marlow said, what's the point in getting new a/c when they have less range. So I'll bet once we get the proper numbers for the SR version we'll be fine.

[DutchBird-757]

Here's another question. Will we in whatever way adjust our timetable to fit the LCY-JFK-LCY times? I pressume they (BA) would like to have some of our flights arrive or depart to match the A318. To act as a sort of feeder?

[WHBM]

For anywhere to connect through LCY to the new New York service you need cities with good business traffic, and relatively poor current connections to New York.

Unfortunately none of the current BA destinations fall into that category. The VLM points are a much better set, places like Luxembourg, Jersey, etc. But BA obviously can't do a tie-up with them any more.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

DB 757

Remember that the BA product is a 32 seat business class service, those clients who are high spending, if they wish to fly from JFK to Europe, why would they transit through LCY, they would simply fly with another carrier to their European destination, or transit through LHR T5 which is a very pleasant experience. I hope the LCY JFK route succeeds, but I am not convinced it will, after all the very market they are trying to atrract, most have gone bust or about to be locked up for a long time in the slammer.
FF

[Cyrano]

So what is the correct figures for these aircraft on range? the RJs do MAD now, and did WAW ok with a limited load on the routes but whats the point in replacing an airframe with an airframe with less ange?

I'd assumed that the reason for buying a mixed fleet was simply so that there would be some aircraft (the 170s) with the range to do the long sectors like MAD/BCN etc. The operating-cost-per-seat equation doesn't really favour the smaller aircraft otherwise.

[Skipness One Echo]

I understand it's not designed to be a connecting service, it's a point to point service for the City and the Wharf and has been underwritten to an extent due to promised business from a large BA client, Barclay's.

[dhc83driver]

Just been looking at the advert on BA.com,

Club World business flights from London City to New York - A318 - British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/club-world-london-city/public/en_gb)

to quote:-

Transfer to key business destinations:- Transfer to our BA CityFlyer network, connecting you to Barcelona, Geneva, Lyon, Nice, Zurich, Madrid, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Paris, Edinburgh, and Glasgow.

I agree its mainly a point to point, but they are marketing the transfer.

Interesting to see Paris making a comeback, is this a miss print or will it be on the winter timetable?

[WHBM]

I guess that one market will be those from the USA making trips to multiple points in Europe, who can start with a nice easy overnight into London City and later in the week move on to Frankfurt, Zurich, or wherever. Not direct transfers in the normal sense but reflecting what a number of extended trips require.

Always surprises me the number of Americans you encounter at LCY already on domestic and short European trips, who presumably came in/out of Heathrow some time previously. The availability of a BA network that avoids Heathrow completely wil be an advantage to them. Shhh, though, don't tell Waterside.

[dhc83driver]

Looks like no Paris for us. It was a misprint and has been removed from the advert.

[towser]

Or maybe they just don't want it released yet!

[DutchBird-757]

1st Embraer proving flight will be op Sep 18, LCY-EDI-LCY for company/CAA.

[ballyctid]

Have any RJ's been handed back yet? What is the plan re the handbacks and when will the last one go?

[ballyctid]

Just seen post #468 with regards to handbacks, is that still the current plan? Also anyone know where the aircraft will reside during the handbacks?

[Certa Cito]

From the BALPA website

BA CITIFLYER IN CONSULTATION TO PROTECT JOBS


BA Citiflyer announced a surplus of pilots and the Company Council is consulting with the management to explore ways of protecting jobs. An on-line survey has been established to gather the views of BALPA BA Citiflyer pilots so that they can be engaged and involved in determining the future success of the company.

During the consultation process where pressure testing the company’s claims revealed that BA Citiflyer was unable to carry the cost of the surplus pilots the Company Council has engaged positively with management to explore alternatives to compulsory redundancy.

A range of voluntary options have been announced and all pilots at BA Citiflyer should have received an information pack to provide the details of the options available and how to apply. The Company Council has held further talks as part of the consultation process to explore ideas for saving any surplus pilots once the outcome of the voluntary options is known.

The collective options that would help fund the salaries and training of any surplus pilots were detailed in the Newsletter of 12 June 2009 and are outlined on the survey at the link below. All BALPA BA Citiflyer pilots are encouraged to participate in the survey that will help shape further talks with management over the coming weeks. The consultation process has been extended to allow for a formal ballot to take place in due course.


CP is at his work again!

[cmf146]

No the estimate in message #468 is incorrect.

G-BZAW has already left the fleet and is in the process of being painted all white at Norwich before being handed back to BAE. There is one other to leave the fleet this year, with the remainder handed back in 2010.

[BAladdy]

Just noticed that 4th E170, planned reg G-LCYG which is due to be delivered in November will be the 300th E170 delivery.

Does this mean it could be delivered in a special livery. Just like the 300th (G-EMBP) E145 delivered to BRAL did??

Photos: Embraer EMB-145EU (ERJ-145EU) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways-(British/Embraer-EMB-145EU-(ERJ-145EU)/0170489/&sid=88b896bd5e07330d32bd0f11c6686098)

[Grizzle]

If they just got them all painted in Flybe colours now it would save the expense of a re-spray ;)

[BAladdy]

If they just got them all painted in Flybe colours now it would save the expense of a re-spray http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

:=:=

I think not....... Traffic and yields are starting to creep back up at LCY. I think you have more chance of the LGW 737 fleet being painted in BE colours....

[Grizzle]

Nah!
Jim wouldn't have any interest in either the 737s or the expensive attachments that come in the FD/Cabin, that Willy can't get rid of himself.

But the E195s? - think masterplan.

Why did BE give up the options on the 195s to BA? So that BA had the risk of getting it up and running and building a client base before disposing of it to BE.
Why did Jim not want the LCY operation in the first place? To risky and too much competition. Need a bigger purse to get it up and running, before disposing of it to BE.
Why did Cityflyer only choose between the Q400 and E195 at LCY? Because BE have them both.
Why did CP try to jump ship to BE when the FOD job was advertised? Because he won't be needed after Cityflyer is disposed of to BE.
Why would Willy continue to invest in E195s when he is loosing £401m? Because he had a crock of RJ's which nobody (including Jim) wanted so best to get the 195s up and running because they can be disposed of to Flybe.

mmmmmm!

[Skipness One Echo]

Why did Jim not want the LCY operation in the first place? To risky and too much competition. Need a bigger purse to get it up and running, before disposing of it to BE.

You do know that the company you are talking about used to have a major operation at LCY.....? I mean it's not as if they didn't have the chance.

[Expressflight]

Grizzle
It's E190s that BA have on order - not E195s. There's a big difference performance-wise and the E195 would be a non-starter at LCY.

[ballyctid]

CFM 146...

Thanks, that helps alot.

Time for some calls on Monday! :)

[ballyctid]

Oops that should have been Cmf146, sorry!

[virginblue]

But the E195s? - think masterplan.

If Willie wanted to get rid off Cityflyer, I can think of a few less complicated solutions than the one you hint at....

[BAladdy]

BACF seem to be starting to publish their Winter Timetable so far it looks like this:

MAD - Remains twice daily but switches to a E170 from 12NOV09. Flight time cut from 2hrs 45m ex LCY to 2hr 20 and from MAD flight time is cut from 2hr 35m to 2hr 20m

GVA - 6 x Weekly from 14 DEC09 - 26MAR10

FRA - No Change. E170 ops 3 of the 4 flights

ZRH - Remains 4 x Daily.

NCE - Operates mostly daily

BCN - Operates 3 x Weekly

AMS - Remains 4 x Daily with BA8453/54 operated by E170

EDI - Looks like back up to 7 x daily

GLA - Remains 4 x daily

LYS - Does not return this Winter.


From what I can see the BA8453/54 E170 is only due to operate those two flights. Could there be a new route about to be announced??. Or is the EDI timetable not yet finalised

[DutchBird-757]

From what I've heard WAW will return during summer 2010.

[AirLCY]

There are flights showing on E170 and E190 next summer season on EDI, but varies by month - seems a fair few in May. Is it not showing the E170's for winter yet?

[DutchBird-757]

Just found this on BA website

A small number of British Airways flights have been cancelled from our forthcoming Winter 2009 and Summer 2010 schedule.

Flight Withdrawals from 25 October 2009
London City to Lyon
London City to Barcelona


www.lfn.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/lfn.cfg...X25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1 (http://www.lfn.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/lfn.cfg...X25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1)

I understand the LYS but the BCN is still 3x weekly isn't it?

[marlowe]

Dutchbird i think the way that Cityflyer have been used in the past by BA is possibly different to the way that Cityflyer will be used in the future, once the E jets are online and Mainline has a presence at LCY. So maybe there could be a shake up of the route structure and routes that seem important at the moment might not be in the future?

[DutchBird-757]

Regarding the BCN from LCY:

Service resumes from 29MAR10 and is to be operated by the new Embraer E170/190 (except 29MAR10 to 02MAY10 on weekdays with Avro RJ100)

Source: GDS timetable
==

[virginblue]

I know that it is loaded in the GDS, but if it is true why don't BA advise accordingly in their press release? Whoever reads the press release must think that the route is gone for good as it is not listed in the section that lists the flights that resume for next summer season.

[AirLCY]

The only place its displayed is ba.com and it's wrong, luckily apart from people on here etc, not many read it!

[BAladdy]

Just noticed this flight on the London City Website.

Exeter EXT BA003P 20:35
Are BACF handing back another RJ??

[DutchBird-757]

No. This was 'AY' getting maintenance done on it's landing gear. It used to be done in Stansted but that's changed to Exeter. I think the next one to go is/was 'AW'. But don't quote me on that.7

Only just over 4 weeks until the first E170 arrives! :ok:

[Tandemrotor]

In a far off galaxy, a long, long time ago... I recall an argument that BA Cityflyer (at that time BA Connect?) should not be making pilots redundant, whilst another part of the group (mainline) remained profitable.

Nobody from Connect was ever actually made redundant, but you catch my drift??

Just thinking how the argument goes, now the boot is on the other foot?

Should the financial burden of retaining these 'surplus' (mainline) pilots be shared equally amongst the group?

Now is the time to decide whether arguments proffered then were genuine, or simply people bumping their gums together??

Many of you making those arguments at the time must still be around!

Not asking for reassurance you understand. Just want to make the situation crystal clear so that in future, we all know where we stand! :)

[towser]

In Cityflyer we had a pilot surplus and were looking to make pilots redundant. This was resolved by other means,(basically a reduction in terms and conditions) but we never had a pilot deficit so the boot was never on the other foot!

[DutchBird-757]

A sneak preview of our first E170 here: YouTube - ExecutiveAirShare's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/ExecutiveAirShare)

(It's hiding in the back)

Plus the first pictures:
http://www.aeroworldnews.com.br/ftgaleria/galeria_2_1248829192.jpg

http://www.aeroworldnews.com.br/ftgaleria/galeria_2_1248829018.jpg

And finally a slightly revised delivery scheduele:

The E170's are planned to be delivered as follows:
G-LCYD - 08 Sep 2009
G-LCYE - 19 Sep 2009
G-LCYF - 31 Oct 2009
G-LCYG - Nov 2009
G-LCYH - Dec 2009
G-LCYI - Jan 2010

E190SR's are planned to be delivered as follows; (1x 190SR in FEB iso 2x 190SR in MAR)

G-LCYJ - Feb 2010
G-LCYK - Mar 2010
G-LCYL - Apr 2010
G-LCYM - May 2010
G-LCYN - Jun 2010

==

[STN Ramp Rat]

just out of interest where are the Embraers being delivered to? where will the engineering base be?

[DutchBird-757]

Good question and haven't got an awnser for it. I would assume EDI for mx. I've been told the first one goes to EDI on delivery.

[Lyco360]

Nice little twist with the registrations!

Final aircraft delivered in June 2010, am I right in saying that is earlier than the previous plan? I suppose there is no news on CityFlyer talking any of the options at this stage.

[Skipness One Echo]

In some ways this is incredibly depresssing though. We are replacing the last British built airliners with a Brazilian built piece of kit. We had the industry and the skills generations before them and look where we are now. Building the last few Eurofighters and some Merlins, and once that's done, game over.

Well done to Embraer for a smashing piece of kit. Looks good in BA colours.

[cornishsimon]

Well said Skippy!!

[CabinCrewe]

Only you could make something exciting and new sound "depressing"

[AirLCY]

It's true though - such a shame Avro / Bae didnt continue. I guess at least some airbus wings are made in the UK, not that the UK gov't are too bothered - look at the support they give Airbus vs France and Germany!

[Skipness One Echo]

Only you could make something exciting and new sound "depressing"
I'm a realist and a pragmatist. If you don't like me then block me and you can live your life without be bringing you down. However BA and also BEA and BOAC had a long history of supporting British jobs and industry, and also of messing it up for the same people.
My point is that the final link with British aircraft manufacturing and our ( former ) flag carrier will be gone with the last RJ. That is worthy of mentioning in passing. I also said the Brazilian replacement was an awesome piece of kit, an aircraft that we ought to be building ourselves, but those days are gone.

Our economy is now heavily tied in with the bankrupt and immoral financial services juggernaut with which the shiny new non-British replacement will be flying for. There are several levels of irony in there alone.

[towser]

No news on the options but the decision date for them has been put back.

[DutchBird-757]

I can see where Skipness is coming from. The exact same thing happend in Holland when Fokker collapsed and a restart was unsuccessfull. And now KLM, and others, are getting rid of the Fokkers in favour of either Brazillian or Canadian build jets. It's the exact same story really. It's said but it happened for a reason.

@ towser; no more before end of the year then?

[towser]

DB757 , Thats my understanding.

[BAladdy]

BACF have added an additional Sunday frequency for their Winter GVA/LCY service. The route starts up again 14DEC09

They will now operate daily Mon-Fri and 2 flights on a Sunday

The Timetable is as follows
LCY-GVA
BA8743 LCY 09:20 GVA 12:10 AR1 Mon-Fri Only
BA8743 LCY 12:30 GVA 15:15 E70 Sun Only
BA8745 LCY 17:10 GVA 20:00 E70 Sun Only

GVA-LCY
BA8744 GVA 12:55 LCY 13:40 AR1 Mon-Fri Only
BA8744 GVA 15:55 LCY 16:40 E70 Sun Only
BA8746 GVA 20:40 LCY 21:25 E70 Sun Only
__________________________________________________________

Was at MAN yesterday and noticed on the arrivals board a flight from BCN operated by BA. Can't remember the exact flight number, however I do remember it started BA19 and ended with a C.

Was this a BACF or mainline charter?? Anyone know if it was for Man City fans or team??.

[marlowe]

It was the team arriving back from BCN and it was a BACF charter.

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know if BACF are having problems with there fleet??.

It's just I have noticed that they seem to have two Bae 146's operating today. The first Bae146 which is being used looks like it has 80 seats and is operating BA8734/8735, LCY/FRA/LCY. While the second which has 92 seats is operating BA8716/8707/8728, LCY/EDI/LCY/GLA. Anyone got anymore info??.
I am guessing the aircraft belong to Titan.
It was the team arriving back from BCN and it was a BACF charter.
Intresting. If I recall they also did a charter from EDI to ZRH back in July for the Falkirk Football team. Does anyone know if BACF are actively trying to get extra Charter work for the Winter??. It will be interesting to see if the charters have been a success if they will look at moving into specialising in flights specifically for teams flying in Europe. There could be very good money in it for them.

[DutchBird-757]

Titan indeed brought in to replace tech aircraft.

About the charters. Quite a number of football charters during AUG. Haven't heard anything about winter charters, if any.

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know if the last aircraft to AMS on a friday stay in AMS until Sunday??. Also the aircraft that operates Fridays late FRA does that stay in FRA until the Monday am??

Haven't heard anything about winter charters, if any.

That is a shame. The majority of the fleet seems to not operate all day Saturday, and most of Sunday. Which to me looks like a waste of money. They should tender to operate ski flights for companies such as Inghams. They could operate charters from STN, EDI and GLA to ski destanation such as GVA, LYS, INN etc as they did a few years ago. When it comes to the summer If I recall BACF a few years ago used to operate flights from EDI, GLA & BHX to PMI and FAO. Maybe they could tender for those flights when all the E-Jets arrive

[DutchBird-757]

Both the AMS and FRA friday nightstoppers remain there until that sunday on a remote stand and crew positions via LHR that sunday.

About the charters. I wished they would use the aircraft during the weekends and make money with them rather than having them sitting idle somewhere. Just my 0.002c.

On the other hand, they've always stated that their main operation was the focus. Especially now with the crewing levels tight and the good old RJ getting a bit tired they can't take the risk of having crew out of hours or aircraft tech somewhere with disruption to our normal ops as a consequence. I think that once the Embraers are up and running, and crew levels back to normal, they'll get back to charters.

I also read an article about the E190's range from LCY. It states over 800 miles but fails to mention anything about with what kind of payload.
Private Jets News: EMBRAER 190 undertakes successful week of trials at London City Airport (http://jet.luxuo.com/2009/04/embraer-190-undertakes-successful-week.html)

Usually our MAD's are about 815nm and a Lisbon is about 915nm from LHR.

[DutchBird-757]

G-LCYD will start it's delivery process on 31AUG in Brazil and be flown to the UK on 04SEP. Routing; Factory in Sao Jose dos Campos - Recife - oceaninc to Cape Verde - Tenerife South (overnight) - Exeter (05SEP at night) for final modifications before enty into service. (EIS) Any spotters out there willing to snap a few shots?

One slight modification to the delivery scheduele. Confirmed NO E190 in FEB and now 2 in APR iso MAR. (still 1)

:ok:

[BAladdy]

I also read an article about the E190's range from LCY. It states over 800 miles but fails to mention anything about with what kind of payload.

Looking at BACF's timetable. It looks like the E170's are planned to operate the MAD service. Does the E170 have more of a range than the E190's??.

There seems to be a few gaps in the timetable for the summer. Guessing they will be filled by the rumoured new routes. BCN seems to have done well this Summer. Maybe they will increase the frequency next summer.

[DutchBird-757]

Looking at the Embraer website the E190 has more range than the E170 (1800 for the E170STD against 2100nm ish for the E190) I would assume the E170 has more legs from LCY with a bigger payload as it's more then 10T lighter.

We'll wait and see about BCN for the next summer season. The route will stop on 24OCT and restarted next summer. MAD will be flown by the E170 from 11NOV. (flight times are 25 min shorter ex LCY en 15 min shorter inb LCY)

This is what I found on another forum;
G-LCYD, Mon-Fri

BA8700/8703/8453/8454/8712/8717
LCY/EDI/LCY/AMS/LCY/EDI/LCY

Sat:

BA8475/8476
LCY/NCE/LCY

Sun:

BA8738/8737
LCY/FRA/LCY

The routes have also been decided on for the next two E170's.

The second aircraft G-LCYE will enter service on 13 October as BA8736 from LCY to FRA . Then the E170 will Operate Monday to Friday FRA/LCY/FRA/LCY/FRA/LCY/FRA.

The third aircraft which is due to delivery at the end of October will enter service on BACF's longest route LCY/MAD on 11th Nov .

==

[WHBM]

About the charters. I wished they would use the aircraft during the weekends and make money with them rather than having them sitting idle somewhere.
Doing weekend charters are a real difficulty for LCY-based operators.

If you do them with aircraft which weekend at the outstations, you will get difficulties with crew hours from a non-base, and not being able to start the charter until the aircraft turns up on Saturday lunchtime, while wanting the aircraft back by Sunday lunchtime, a combination there is not much demand for. Moreover BACF will not be a well-known operator there.

If you do charters starting from LCY, you need to be gone before Saturday lunchtime and not back until after Sunday lunchtime, which when fitted in with the schedules gives some very restrictive options for scheduling.

Scheduling a 12 noon Saturday departure out of London City is a real moment of tension, if you are not gone by the time the curfew comes in the whole charter is lost and that will be the end of any more business from that customer.

Football charters would be an obvious market for LCY, out on Saturday morning, were it not for the fact that you can't come back on Saturday night (so what's the point of going by air ?), and have to be in quite precisely on Sunday ready for the schedules.

[marlowe]

WHBM you assume that any charter would start and finish at LCY, so far none of the charters done by BACF have done so. As for charters at weekends then they can be accomodated by the airframes that are up in EDI so the limitations of LCY dont apply .

[BAladdy]

Scheduling a 12 noon Saturday departure out of London City is a real moment of tension, if you are not gone by the time the curfew comes in the whole charter is lost and that will be the end of any more business from that customer.

Football charters would be an obvious market for LCY, out on Saturday morning, were it not for the fact that you can't come back on Saturday night (so what's the point of going by air ?), and have to be in quite precisely on Sunday ready for the schedules.Yes but there is nothing stopping them if the work is available positioning the one aircraft that nightstops on a Saturday at LCY to STN or a regional airport such as SOU/BOH/BHX/EMA or MAN once it has completed it's inbound sector to LCY. It would then be available Saturday afternoon and possibly Sunday am.

WHBM you assume that any charter would start and finish at LCY, so far none of the charters done by BACF have done so. As for charters at weekends then they can be accomodated by the airframes that are up in EDI so the limitations of LCY dont apply .

Very true. I think BACF have 1 possibly 2 aicraft on the ground at EDI from Fri night to Sunday Afternoon, with another 2 aicraft free from around 1pm on Saturday to mid afternoon on Sunday. GLA currently has two aircraft that arrive on a Friday evening. One of the aircraft does not operate again until 1700 on the Sunday and the other does not operate until Monday morning.

With this in mind BACF could easily operate charter flights from EDI and GLA in the summer if they where successful in bidding to operate flights for a tour operator. Ex EDI They could use one aircraft all day Saturday and on Sunday am and another Saturday PM and Sunday am to operate charter flights leaving at least one aircraft on STBY. EX GLA they could use both aircraft all day on Saturday and one aircraft on a Sunday for charter ops. Whilst still protecting the limited Sunday operation

If insufficent charter work was available for all sectors ex these airports then maybe with some strategic bidding the aircraft could operate W patterns.

eg. EDI/XXX/BHX/XXX/EDI or GLA/XXX/MAN/XXX/GLA

In the Winter they could bid for ski flights as well as some of the many day trip flights to German markets and even Lapland.

[HZ123]

I think BA in general has tried all this before, it has been a fine line at actually making money. Are these the right aircraft anyway?

[BAladdy]

I recall that someone mentioned that a decision on the three E190SR options has been delayed. If BACF wanted to exercise their options could they change the E190SR options to E170's??

I think BA in general has tried all this before, it has been a fine line at actually making money
If you mean the whole charter thing. BACF a couple of years ago was doing quite well operating charter flights at weekends from EDI, BHX and I think MAN. The reason they stopped was they started to impact on the punctuality and reliability of their scheduled services.
Are these the right aircraft anyway?
If you mean to operate charters. I personally think the new E-Jets would be a better fit for those flights. On the other hand if you mean are the E-Jets the right aircraft to replace the RJ85/100's. I would have to say that I couldn't think of a better replacement.

Although smaller, the E170's will be able to fly higher and faster than the current RJ85 and RJ100 aircraft. They will also be far more fuel efficient and offer BACF's customers more space to work and relax. With only 76 seats the E170's will be a better aircraft to operate routes such as ZRH, AMS, MAD, FRA as well as off peak flights to GLA and EDI. Historically those flights struggles to achieve load factors of over 60% on the 110 seater RJ100's.

As has already been posted earlier. Flights on the LCY/MAD route are expected to be 15 mins faster from MAD to LCY and 25 mins faster from LCY to MAD when the E170 takes over from the RJ85 currently operating the route.

Due to the E190SR's being a new variant of the E190 not much info is available on it's range/payload etc. However it will still be, as the E170's will be able to fly higher and faster while at the same time being far more fuel efficient than the current E190's.

[saman]

How noisey are the 170/5 & 190/5? They are both powered by little engines - albeit different on the two variants - running flat out - and derate at LCY is not much of an option - both already have devices such as chevron nozzles to quieten them...

[towser]

The only time noise may be an issue is setting thrust on the brakes. If a rolling take off is performed then no noise issue, however the performance issue of rolling take offs at LCY is still being investigated. I belive the options are changeable fro 190 to 170.

[DutchBird-757]

The options are for 190SR's only and the decision time has apparently been moved backwards. The purchase rights can be either.

[DutchBird-757]

This is what it's been all about;

The first E170 during photo flight. (copyright @ Embraer)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/3885531770_0867066fd4.jpg

[Skipness One Echo]

LYE BA9257T 19:00

From flight arrivals on London City Airport : Homepage (http://www.flylcy.com). Am taking the Nikon out for a look see. They are currently on Runway 27 so here's hoping for some good light from the dock.

[OltonPete]

flightglobal reporting that the first Embraer 170 is soon to be on
its way to Edinburgh and might arrive on 5/9/09 late afternoon.
G-LCYE is due next week I believe it said.

G-INFO shows it was registered 3/9/09.





Pete

[DutchBird-757]

Unfortunately G-LCYD will be slightly later than planned as it had a birdstrike (vulture) after takeoff from Recife for the 4h15m flight to Cape Verde. Aircraft returned to Recife with a 20cm big gap between the radome and flightdeck windows. All ok. Not something you want, especially on a delivery flight. Just like parking your new car outside the showroom agains a bollard. :sad:

Aircraft will fly; SJK-REC-SID-TFS-Exeter. It will not go to Edinburgh initially. Delivery ceremony was on the 3rd, delivery flight today. (without the birdstrike)

Pictures of 'YD' in a better state are now on Airliners.net and www.FlickR.com (http://www.FlickR.com). (search for G-LCYD)

[OltonPete]

DutchBird-757

Thank you for the update and wow what a start to its life with Cityflyer,
it does not come more dramatic than that.

Hopefully a less eventful entry into service at the end of the month.

Pete

[DutchBird-757]

Damage wasn't that substantial but the aircraft is heading back to SJK at FL100. No word on how long it will take.

[BAladdy]

Damage wasn't that substantial but the aircraft is heading back to SJK at FL100. No word on how long it will take.

I would have thought since the aircraft has been returned to SJK that a repair there will be far quicker than say if it happend in the UK.

Is G-LCYE still expected to be handed over today??. Will BACF now use this aircraft for the CAA flight on the 18th Sept? or has that date now been put back?.
Hopefully G-LCYD will be repaired this week and follow G-LCYE a week later.

If I am not mistaken G-BZAX is the next RJ to leave the BACF fleet to return to Bae. Does anyone know what date it's last flight is expected to be??

[RJ100]

The hand back process for G-BZAX was due to start on Sept 28th. Ferry flight to Kemble and the CAA air test etc. Not sure if that will still be the case.

RJ.

[DutchBird-757]

Got word that YD's damage was mostly cosmetical but since the aircraft was still in Brazil it was easier to fix it in the factory. Still waiting on pics of the birdstrike.

Don't think this will affect the CAA flight on the 18th or EIS on the 28th. They'll just use YE if YD takes too long.

[BAladdy]

Someone has posted this link on Airliners. It includes pics of the cabin interior, flight deck and of course the aicraft itself

BA Embraer 170 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/businesstraveller/sets/72157622282965738/show/)

[DutchBird-757]

Hey, that's my source!:ok:

I must say I really like the interior .

[32SQDN]

Thanks for the pics.
I think it is a fantastic looking aircraft - especially in the BA colours. Looking forward to travelling in one!!
Must say though, every EMB 170/195 I have been in has the frustrating issue of the seats being offset from the windows. I don't know if that is solely down to seat pitch. Would be interesting to see if that will be the case with the Cityflyer a/c. Can't quite see in the photos.

[DutchBird-757]

Well, I've been told that due to the chosen pitch/layout of our E-Jets all windows will be mostly lined-up with the seats. But indeed difficult to tell from the pics and I haven't seen the inside myself yet. Luckely it's got big windows.

[Otto Throttle]

Must say though, every EMB 170/195 I have been in has the frustrating issue of the seats being offset from the windows.

I have no idea what a/c you've been flying on, but frankly, I think you're talking out a hole in your hat. It is a design feature of the E-jet family that every row has it's own window. There are no 'offset' windows. Especially not on the E195 - 30 rows of seats, 30 sets of windows. I've also positioned around on other airlines operating the E-jet, and have yet to find these 'offset' windows you refer to.

[32SQDN]

Flybe E195 - definately no window adjacent to my seat. :ugh:

[Feet on ground]

I've flown on flybe e195 as well and had no window next to me.

Surely the alignment of the windows to the seats is influenced by both the seat pitch, the number of rows and the galley/toilet configurations.

[32SQDN]

I've flown on flybe e195 as well and had no window next to me.

Cheers, I was just about to check my hat for leaks!!:O

Surely the alignment of the windows to the seats is influenced by both the seat pitch, the number of rows and the galley/toilet configurations.

That was my question really.

[ETOPS]

Think I've spotted something here.

Feet on ground

I've flown on flybe e195


32SQDN

Flybe E195 - definately no window


Aircraft we are discussing is the EMB 170.


PS 32SQDN there's no "a" in definitely.

[32SQDN]

Otto wasn't, to whom I was responding:

"It is a design feature of the E-jet family that every row has it's own window. There are no 'offset' windows. Especially not on the E195 - 30 rows of seats, 30 sets of windows".

Really sorry about the spelling mistake!

[Cyrano]

I have no idea what a/c you've been flying on, but frankly, I think you're talking out a hole in your hat. It is a design feature of the E-jet family that every row has it's own window. There are no 'offset' windows. Especially not on the E195 - 30 rows of seats, 30 sets of windows. I've also positioned around on other airlines operating the E-jet, and have yet to find these 'offset' windows you refer to.

With all due respect, as feet on ground said, the alignment of seat rows and windows depends on the number of rows.

See the E170 cabin plans here (http://www.embraercommercialjets.com/english/content/ejets/emb_170.asp?tela=layouts) for example. There is a 70-seat configuration (17.5 rows) and a 78-seat configuration (19.5 rows). The cabin plan also shows the window position and it would appear that in the 70-seat configuration, the windows align with the seat rows, but in the 78-seat configuration, they do not.

Please feel free to accuse me too of speaking through a hole in my hat.

C.

[OltonPete]

Reported by flight global as delivered to Exeter today.

acarsd does show a message dated to today and flytecomm
has it arrived

AirlineCityflyer ExpressFlight Number1PDeparture City (Airport)Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain (and Territories) (GCTS)Departure Time09/11/2009 10:10 AMArrival City (Airport)Exeter, England, Great Britain (EGTE)Arrival Time09/11/2009 02:59 PMRemaining Flight Time00:00Aircraft TypeCurrent Altitude0 feetCurrent Groundspeed0 mphFlight StatusLanded

A lovely looking aircraft and having flown on the 195, I am sure
that they will go down well with the pax.


Pete

[Maverick8701]

I was in EXT today and saw it parked outside the Flybe hangar looking very pretty!!

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know if the new E-Jets have air stairs??

[Maverick8701]

The Flybe 195s do so I presume that the 170s will as aswell?

[DutchBird-757]

No, both the E170 and E190 will not have airstairs. Reason behind it is that airstairs weigh just under 200kg. And 200kg 'extra' can be a big difference at LCY in an RTOW. (2 extra pax or 200 kg's extra fuel etc)

Deplaning using airstairs is quicker. But it's just something the operation will have to get used to.

[TURIN]

Deplaning using airstairs is quicker. But it's just something the operation will have to get used to.


Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

He said Deplaning!!!!!!!

What is wrong with disembarking??? FFS!:\

[Max Tow]

Strange response from Turin - must be the late hour? Nothing wrong with enplaning & deplaning. Arguably simpler than the word disembark, which I suppose literally means "to reverse the process of getting on a boat". It's good to see the English vocabulary develop rather than being stuck in some medieval time warp where all our technical terms are nautical because there were no flying machines then. Heaven help us if computer vocabulary was so constrained!
Anyway, good luck to Cityflyer with the new machines.

[Expressflight]

While not wishing to prolong this thread drift, just how is "enplaning" a simpler word than "boarding"?

If you're going to change aeronautical vocabulary (which you incidentally might prefer to call "air words" in your brave new world - so much simpler n'est-ce pas?) because of much of its nautical origins, that will be quite a list.

[DutchBird-757]

Mature response Turin. Must have been a rough night. :oh: Cheers M.T.

Just checked 'YE' movements and it's going to stay another day in SJK.

[BAladdy]

Deplaning using airstairs is quicker. But it's just something the operation will have to get used to.

At EDI, GLA, AMS, FRA, MAD, BCN and NCE BACF probably try and have there aircraft allocated stands with a jetty.

[towser]

At EDI GLA FRA BCN and NCE we almost never get stands with airbridges! (EDI and GLA sometimes)

[DutchBird-757]

We're only guaranteed an airbridge at AMS, ZRH and MAD plus what towser said.

G-LCYD proving flight for CAA remains unchanged. (SEP18)
G-LCYE delivery is schedueled for 18-19th SEP.

[TURIN]

Thread drift alert!

Sorry to have upset the more "mature" Ppruners.

I just hate the use of made up words concocted by people who are too lazy to use an established vocabulary. Not pointing the finger here as I know it's been in use across the pond for years.

If there is no word available by all means go for it (Computers being a case in point) make it up, if it sticks good for you. :ok:

Enplaning is a new one on me though..:yuk:

[Skipness One Echo]

Big thanks to the Captain and crew of the BA8705 from EDI to LCY yesterday as on approach to runway 27 at City, I realised we had just gone around from finals. The raised eyebrows of the passengers were smoothed away by a perfectly calm and brief PA from the Captain explaining the wind was swinging round and as were heavy, no tail wind was allowed. The free tour of London was actually quite interesting, especially as we got to do the whole thing again when the wind swung again and we went around again passing the Excel Centre on 09. Third time lucky with an old style round of applause on landing.
Out of the front door three minutes after stepping off the plane next to the new BA A318 which was nice...


**Media Note. No one screamed or was panic stricken and no schools were narrowly missed.

[Otto Throttle]

Well, you 'll almost certainly be seeing a lot more of those once the E-jet finally enters service. Rather twitchy windshear detection system. Still, it keeps those skills sharp for the sim details. :}

[DutchBird-757]

On the other hand, both E-Jet types will get tailwind approval. Currently only the RJ85 can accept a tailwind (5kts) on landing.

[RJ100]

Word at the dock is that G-LCYD is due into LCY sometime this afternoon.

[DutchBird-757]

That's correct.

G-LCYD left Exeter for Cambridge this morning and had a 2+ hr testflight in the early afternoon ex CBG. It will depart Cambridge at 1450z and arrive in LCY @ 1520z as 'Flyer 02P.'

[WHBM]

Nose-to-nose photo with the A318 on arrival for the press ? Or do we have to keep a low profile to appease the greens nowadays ? :rolleyes:

[ConstantFlyer]

When does the E170 start service with pax? Wouldn't mind getting on and off one myself. (I'm happy to disembark, but would prefer to "emplane" than "enplane" if "getting on" wasn't a possibility!!).

[RJ100]

Its first flight is to EDI on 28th Sept. I think it will do a LCY-EDI-LCY-AMS-LCY rotation. Not sure after that what it's doing. DutchBird seems to have a better idea... Too much time on sby me thinks ;)

These are the flights listed for it at the moment.

BA8700 LCY-EDI
BA8703 EDI-LCY

BA8453 LCY-AMS
BA8454 AMS-LCY

BA8712 LCY-EDI
BA8717 EDI-LCY

All bookable on the 28th through the BA Website :)

RJ

[towser]

If my roster is anything to go by if you go to Frankfurt in October it'll prob be on the 170!

[RB311]

What will the Embrear DA be at LCY?

Afterall it isn't a 146! or derivative thereof

Cheers

RB311

[DutchBird-757]

@ RB311. Well, no DA in the fleet as it's registered to a Falcon 900EX by London City Jet Aviation Center.

@ RJ100. Indeed on SBY, or otherwise bored in some hotel. :ok:

The first three aircrafts schedueles can be found in earlier replies.
G-LCYD made a nice first landing yesterday and is schedueled to go to CBG and back today. Departing 1230z and back at 1730z.

One of the plans might be a promo on SEP 28 or 29 (can't remember the exact date) with 2x A318 and 2x E170 on the new stands. One problem is that BA is pushing Airbus to get the 2nd A318 delivered one day earlier than schedueled and that might not work.

[towser]

DB757 - I think RB311 was referring to Decision Altitude! which if I remember right is 570' on 27 but i might have got that mixed up with something else!

[DuneMentat]

Im sure RB311 meant the ILS DA/DH not the registration :}

But it being non BAe146/RJ i would asume it would have to adhere to the std published DA/DH assuming approach Cat C for rwy 09: 460' (vs BAe 360') and for rwy 27: 550 (vs 460') asuming it is capable of minimum 3.5% climb gradient

DM

[DutchBird-757]

Good spot guys. Sorry about that, don't know what I was thinking. ;)

I'll pass on that one. Haven't got the plates handy.
First question that comes to mind, is the E170 CAT B or C?

[towser]

It's Cat C. At the minute I believe we are using the figure for 3% missed approach gradient until some experience is achieved and performance verified.

[DutchBird-757]

YD on finals 09 yesterday;
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3515/3929421666_69f14055fb.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/15545136@N06/)

[Caudillo]

Looks very nice I must say. Reminds me of an ATP but with jets.

[HZ123]

Caudillo;-(An ATP)

If you think that perhaps you need to go to 'Specsavers'.

[BAladdy]

I am guessing that CJ171T from EDI on the LCY arrivals board is the CAA proving flight.

Does anyone know how long after the flight it will be before CAA approval is granted??

Also will the E170 park the same way as the RJ's currently do at LCY or are not all the stands big enough?.

[towser]

It will park the same as the RJ's did. My understanding is that should proving flight be ok then approval is granted there and then by signing a form.

[HeliCraig]

Apologies as I don't know a massive amount about AOC ops; but what is the proving flight actually for? The addition of a new type to an AOC, or something specific to LCY's unique approach etc?

Will mainline have to do a proving flight for the A318?

[DutchBird-757]

That's indeed correct. And the 190's will most propably park on the new stands in LCY.

G-LCYE leaves the factory today at 1800Z.

[towser]

HeliCraig. Its nothing to do with LCY ops ,its as you suggest all to do with introducing a new type to a company and the CAA just ensuring the overall operation can be done to the required standard. BA have already done the proving flight on the 318.

[celso75]

LCYE now not scheduled to depart until Monday

[Dash-7 lover]

helicraig - towser is right but it also helps to iron out any unforseen issues with turnarounds, general handling etc etc and form SOP's (standard operating procedures) for the crew. It saves any embarrassment sending the aircraft straight into revenue service and coming a cropper because you've forgotten something. No doubt, the aircraft had a few senior RJ captains on board getting familiar with the handling and approach. The SIM would have ironed out most of it but nothing like hands-on. I was on the first Dash-300 proving flight in the UK (G-BRYI) from PLH-NCL-ABZ-PLH and it was full of management and crew having a play around.We were only allowed to get off in ABZ for 30mins. A long day by all accounts!

[cornishsimon]

G-BRYI


I was on this aircraft last week! now G-WOWE with Air Southwest and still operating out of PLH & NCL !!

[BAladdy]

I have noticed that BACF have updated their timetable on BA.COM regarding the planned deployment of the new E-Jets.

I noticed this summer that some aircraft spent long periods of time on the ground.

I know it was discussed before, but is there any further word on if BACF will use the introduction of the new fleet to increase there presence at LCY by adding frequencies on existing routes or even add some new routes?

One of the plans might be a promo on SEP 28 or 29 (can't remember the exact date) with 2x A318 and 2x E170 on the new stands. One problem is that BA is pushing Airbus to get the 2nd A318 delivered one day earlier than schedueled and that might not work.

I am suprised BACF aren't running a advertising campaign to coincide with the introduction of the the new E-Jets.

[Jaq]

I think it's a loss on the management that they are using the term Ejet, which sounds very much like Edjet. In Scotland the term Edjet means an idiot or w****r.

[DutchBird-757]

Rumor was that there would be heavy promotion by both BACF and Embraer around the start of the service from LCY. And indeed, haven't seen anything yet.

G-LCYE is arriving in Tenerife today.

New destinations that are considered are Mallorca and Ibiza. (source Flight International of this week)

[towser]

Think Mallorca and Ibiza are possible charter destinations.

[DutchBird-757]

That would make perfect sense. Was stated by P.S. during the delivery ceremony of the first E-Jet in Brazil.

Does anyone know if WAW will return next year?

[BAladdy]

New destinations that are considered are Mallorca and Ibiza. (source Flight International of this week)

There is also a article on the bloomberg site.

British Airways May Add Majorca, Ibiza at London City (Update1) - Bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=alQDadCKoec0)

I can see that happening because BA have just pulled both those routes from LGW for next summer. When they pulled NCE at LGW they added frequency at LCY.

IBZ did well last year from LGW when it was on the 735's which had 110 seats but it has been harder to fill the 734 and A319 this summer. The E170's and E190's would better suit the route.

[PC767]

Only if they operate out of LGW. No? Yes?

[BAladdy]

Only if they operate out of LGW. No? Yes?

If you mean BACF operating flights to PMI and IBZ then it sounds like they will operate ex LCY.

[DutchBird-757]

Just an idea;

During weekend and looking at LCY closing times why not operate for example; EDI/GLA - LCY - PMI - LCY - PMI -LGW - IBZ - etc...

Or a ´W´ pattern for an touroperater could also well work direct from EDI-GLA and then back to LGW or something. Endless variables. But it´s good to see things moving forward. :ok:

[cornishsimon]

Equally if they were to take the options on the E190's and increase the fleet size they could operate through LGW to increase capacity on some of the shuttle routes without increasing the LGW fleet size.

ie Cityflyer, EDI-LCY-EDI-LGW-EDI-LGW-JER-LGW-EDI-LCY

etc etc etc

[Flatspin_Fumble]

DB,
These routes you outline, are already well covered and have been for years, by the low cost operators from GLA and EDI, the London area and beyond, is overwhelmed with similar operators. Do the commercial dept of BACF really think there is a meaningful market within the LCY catchment area to make this work with 70 or 90 seats on offer? or does the commercial dept of Iberia have some potential influence.......

I see BACF as a business airline, carrying higher spending customers, in order to absorb their greater cost base, I am unconvinced that charters to Palma amd Ibiza, from LCY or GLA would be the solution, although there may be some spin off from the Olympics, but I guess that, is a one off.

I must say, though, the 170 looks really good in BA livery.

[DutchBird-757]

Indeed, maybe ex EDI/GLA isn't such a good idea. But the ski charters did well a while back so why not summer charters. Either from LCY or EDI/GLA.

Remember that BCN is mostly a leisure destination from LCY and does well. I know it's stopped from OCT 24 but that's because it's seasonal. Leisure ex LCY seems to work. Why would you want an aircraft on the ground doing nothing when you could use it to fill the gaps between office hours and make some money.

Here's G-LCYE:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8858/baglcye700.jpg

Copyright Rafael Nunes.

[32SQDN]

It does indeed look good in that photo at night.
Is that another Embraer parked up next to it?

[DutchBird-757]

The one next to 'YE' is an Augsburg Airways (LH regional) Embraer 195.
C/N19000310D-AEMFops as Lufthansa Regionalnot yet delivered (http://www.ch-aviation.ch/airlinepage.php?code1=NYD)


That's nbr 6 for them to be delivered.
CH-Aviation - Airline News, Fleet Lists & More (http://www.ch-aviation.ch/aircraft.php?search=set&airline=IQ&al_op=1)

Lufthansa opted to expedite the replacement of 45 aircraft seating roughly 50pax (ATR and CRJ's) and replace them with these E195's. Less maintenance, standard fleet, efficient and more seats. No precise timefame given though.
FTD.de | Milliardensparprogramm: Lufthansa mustert kleine Flieger aus (http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/handel-dienstleister/:milliardensparprogramm-lufthansa-mustert-kleine-flieger-aus/50011739.html)

[Flatspin_Fumble]

DB - I agree with your comments, if BACF can get the business great, but there's a lot of competition out there, but I am not convinced, it is a winner, but perhaps worth a try rather than have the aircraft parked up doing nothing. In the big scheme of things, I guess it will all be decided by those at Waterside anyway.

Cool pic.

[towser]

Flatspin. Having spoken to some of the people concerned I can assure you that the company is looking at charters in a big way and on all sorts of possible routes.

[DutchBird-757]

More info regarding the upcoming deliveries;
c/n
00294 170STD G-LCYD BA CITYFLYER
00295 170STD JAPAN AIR LINES
00296 170STD G-LCYE BA CITYFLYER
00298 170STD G-LCYF BA CITYFLYER Expected delivery 31-10-2009
00300 170STD G-LCYG BA CITYFLYER
00302 170STD G-LCYH BA CITYFLYER

I couldn't find 'YI' on the shortlist just yet.

G-BZAX will leave the fleet at the end of this month. (SEP)

And regarding charters. The bottom line should be making money, right? And if there's money to be made it should at least be looked at seriously. As long as you don't disrupt the core business and p*** off your crew etc.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

What Ho! Towser,

I am delighted to read your news, I was only questioning the viability of DB's suggestion.

We have both worked for the same company - and we both know only too well how it all works. I wish BACF all the very best with its charter operation, it is outwith their business model, but as the banks are stuffed for cash, moving their jobsworths up and down from EDI to LCY then, great idea, fill those seats with stag and hen parties doing charters to PMI, IBZ and PMI again or BCN - its a great way of making money and with onboard sales, the CC will be delighted with the commission.

[32SQDN]

The one next to 'YE' is an Augsburg Airways (LH regional) Embraer 195.
C/N19000310D-AEMFops as Lufthansa Regionalnot yet delivered (http://www.ch-aviation.ch/airlinepage.php?code1=NYD)

Cheers for the info, DB :ok:

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Towser, further to my last post, I really ought to pay more attention... I seem to have overlooked your salient point... "you have spoken to those concerned and looking at charters in a big way, and on all sorts of possible routes" That's great, fantastic! now where have I heard that before? I must have missed have missed something over the last few years.

I do wish Barbiesboyfriend or Brainfade would pitch in, although I think he/she/it/volvodealer/ was banned for being non pc. :) seeing as I am on a roll in the forum!

FF

[AirLCY]

Lufthansa are mainly replacing 146's with the Embraers, they only have 30 on order which will replace most of the older 146's and RJ's

[towser]

Flatspin. I too have heard these sort of things before and I too will wait and see what happens. However there does seem to be a different attitude than there has been in the past so who knows.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

aye, yer, right, towser, who knows what lies ahead. Anyway, still think a 76 seat aircraft doing charters to PMI would struggle to make money on seats alone, that's where the buy on board is the bizz.

Whilst the 170 is new to the company, could you tell me what a typical fuel burn would be from EDI LCY or LCY PMI.
FF

[Tandemrotor]

DutchBird-757 wrote:
During weekend and looking at LCY closing times why not operate for example; EDI/GLA - LCY - PMI - LCY - PMI -LGW - IBZ - etc...

Or a ´W´ pattern for an touroperater could also well work direct from EDI-GLA and then back to LGW or something. Endless variables. But it´s good to see things moving forward.

Of course any student of these matters will know, under the terms of the Scope clause, BA Cityflyer are unable to operate any flights out of (or into) LGW, or for that matter LHR.

Weekend charters out of EDI, GLA or the UK regions may well be more profitable than anything out of LCY, with it's limited opening hours. Certainly regional charters have done well before.

Either way, could be some good nightstops (or long days).

[towser]

Flatspin; I haven't flown the route yet but I believe the burn fron EDI-LCY on the 170 will be in the region of 1600-2000kg. A typical RJ burn was around 2600kg.

[Jaq]

Sorry Towser and Flatspin. I've checked with seagull, and the burn Edi-Lcy burn is around 8 ton. :p (Company joke)

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Well they ought to have gone for the Q400 afterall probably burns about 1000kg EDI LCY and it carries more farepaying ;) but I know which one I would rather fly!
I took 79 pax to BHX the other day and we used 750kgs of fuel.
FF

[towser]

We'll soon sort seagull out!

[warkman]

Welcome to the Worlds favourite Lo-co the ryanair of Britain
Exclusive: BA to charge for advance seat selection - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/exclusive-ba-to-charge-for-seat-selection)

£120 to book your seat round trip in Club World??? Cost more to press the buttoin for CW than economy does it?

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Fumble

It's jolly nice of you to take an interest. Who knows what they'll get up to?

Those who know, they not speaking.

Those who speak, they not know!

Personally, I await developments with interest. I think the plan is to have a bit of a 'hub and spoke' operation, based on LCY.

The E-jets bring in the business types from all around Europe, to the financial centre of the World. There they can do their stuff, bless them, or continue to New York which is the number two centre of the financial world.

If there's not some premium traffic in there somewhere, I'll move to Edinburgh!

Charters? Might be a tickle in it. Don't forget LCY is shut from sat lunchtime til Sunday lunch. So leave them parked somewhere or try to earn some money with them! What's good for the company is good for us!

Thank goodness we've been spared the delights of the Q 400- at least so far!:ooh:

[GROUNDHOG]

One of my niggles with BA has always been that you cannot pre book seats in WTP. Having said that I have never failed to get good seats. As a regular traveller LON/YVR I probably would be prepared to pay a premium for good seats but grudgingly and of course, it all depends on the price of the seat in the first place

For me though BA could shoot themselves in the foot because on the outbound sector anyway if I could be guaranteed an emergency exit row I might even consider a normal economy seat and save money

In the next couple of days I fly out in the Thomas Cook Premium cabin and will be interested to see how it compares.They charge for pre seat selection at nine pounds per sector. Now about to book seats for the next trip in the New Year and you would expect BA to be much more expensive than charter but in fact it isn't, so pre selection in this class is not such a terrible thing to me.

In club world though, surely not, that should be automatically available at that price and for what anyway I really don't rate as a product!.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Barbiesboyfriend

Where have you been my old mucker? Out on day release from Barlinnie or Carstairs? How do you know the E jets bring in premium traffic, you have not started operating them yet! Which was the point of my post way back had you bothered to read it.The 170 looks good in the BA colour scheme and will go down well with your passenger. I know LCY closes for 24 hours at Saturday lunchtime, so sure if your commercial department can come up with some nice little earner on charters, it would be silly to pass that opportunity by, but it was been tried in the past, as you well know, alas, without much success.

Anyway, I shall follow progress as it unfolds. Its Happy Hour now and the Greenpoint is about to be served.
FF

[nivsy]

So I guess next its baggage charges?

BA are surely kidding themselves that at 10 pound its value for money and as for club world................!!


Incidently does any other carrier charge such a fee for scheduled operations to pick some crummy seat?


Am ditching them fast.

[BAladdy]

Any word on when G-BZAX last flight will be?.

[crewmeal]

As a retired employee of a once great airline I feel ashamed to actually admit I worked for BA as a Purser. The way this airline is going is no worse than FR and their charges.

Do BA not realise that passengers - sorry customers have a choice to fly from A to B these days to avoid BA at LHR. The internet is a great place to shop for travel and customers can actually choose a decent carrier with the knowledge that they won't pay stupid charges for extras such as seat choice.

Tomorrow I'm flying Royal Jordanian to LHR knowing I'll get good inflight service with a choice of meals, drinks, a decent seat with ample legroom, a good choice of IFE and a smile from the crew at no extra charge.

Willy Walsh take a leaf out of other carriers and learn a thing or two about customer service

[TBirdFrank]

Is it something about Irish CEOs?

We haven't flown BA for over a decade, don't think that will be changing anytime soon

[BAladdy]

Just found this article which was published earlier this month.

BA CityFlyer “begins new era” with first E-Jet | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/3793//)

In it Peter Simpson is quoted as saying

"There are a lot of routes on the drawing board,” he noted. “We operate nine at the moment and I see a genuine opportunity for another five routes for our business travellers.”

Looks like next summer might see BACF biggest expansion in routes yet.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Flatspin.

What's all this about Barlinnie and Carstairs?

There is strict 'rules of engagement' on Pprune.

Please cease the insults immediately or I'll report you to my Social Worker.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Barbiesboyfriend,

What is a Social Worker ? Do explain.

[OltonPete]

BAladdy

Reported on another forum due in Kemble today at 11am.

ACARSD shows its last recorded flight yesterday CFE034G LCY-GLA.
The message was timed about 19.30.

Whether there was another flight afterwards I don't know but
if there was it does not show on ACARSD.

I trust this is the end of its time at CFE?

Pete

[DutchBird-757]

G-BZAX has left the fleet and is at Kemble to be returned to the lessor.

G-LCYE will leave Exeter for LCY tonight at 1900Z. Tomorrow commercial ops will start with the E-Jet. We'll have 2x E170 plus 1x A318 on the ramp as the 2nd one didn't make it early out of XFW.

[seat 13a]

How are E-jet ops going today into LCY???

[DutchBird-757]

So far so good. Both the early morning flights left on-time with nearly full loads. Saw it arriving in EDI this morning and it looked really nice.

[kit344]

I just drove past City Airport a few minutes ago, there were 2x A318s on the tarmac.

Keith.

[AirLCY]

I didnt think the 2nd 318 was due just yet. Will be good if it is there as that means 2 x 318 and 2 x e170!!

[OltonPete]

The second BA 318 is not on the UK register per the CAA site G-INFO.

If there was a second one in LCY in BA colours it must have been
under the Airbus test registration or G-INFO has not been updated.

Pete

[DutchBird-757]

Are you sure there were two A318's? It might have been 2x E170 and 1 x A318. Internal BA system gives XFW as the location of the 2nd A318.

[kit344]

I may have been wrong. I saw 2 aircraft with low (non T shape) tail planes, in BA colours parked at LCY this afternoon.

I assumed that they were both A318s, I have just looked at a picture of an E170. I was not aware that BA were operating 2 new types from LCY.

[DutchBird-757]

Two new BA types form LCY as of today (E170) and tomorrow. (A318)

Currently two E170's by BACF and one A318 by BA mainline can be found at LCY. Plus the remaining RJ's.

[LondonCityBoy]

Had the pleasure of travelling on the new bird twice this week from and to EDI.

Very impressed with it seemed a step up from the cramped RJs. A bit too much recorded voice for me though, it was almost as bad as FR. Thankfully we were spared the trumpet on our early arrival.

We did seem to have longish flares on landing, espically at EDI this morning, we took quite a while to touchdown. I presume it takes the guys a while to get properly used to the handling quirks of a new aircraft type.

Incidentally (and I know it's the wrong forum), the A318 landed as we were boarding, I counted roughly 26-28 getting off it, that's not a bad load factor at all.

[RJ100]

LondonCityBoy,

The New York A318 has been departing with typically only 1 to 2 passengers, except Friday when it had 12. The return flights have been the most popular with pretty much full loads.

RJ. soon to be Emb170 :)

[Flatspin_Fumble]

RJ100

That's probably because people don't wish to get off at Shannon on the outbound leg having just settled down for the flight. Anyway, why don't the immigration people at Shannon board the aircraft and clear the passengers that way - can't be that difficult surely, a lot easier for the premium paying passenger, than having to disembark taking their hand luggage with them as well.

Apologies for posting something that relates to Mainline here, but was responding to the above post.
FF

[Brian_W]

I'm surprised by the passenger numbers stated above as Tuesday and Wednesday the flight to JFK were both almost full, so surely only Thursday can have had '1-2 passengers' then as the service only started on Tuesday !

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Think you will find that on the first couple of days of a new launch, that most of the pax were from the media and up market travel agents, flying as guests of BA, with no revenue to speak of. Having said that, they did not have any corkscrews to open the wine on the first sector, so I read in the press, so that will have saved them 32 bottles of Burgundy on the first sector! I understand that corkscrews were available at Shannon for the onward flight to JFK.

It will be interesting to see what the yield/pax load is in a few months.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Anyway, why don't the immigration people at Shannon board the aircraft and clear the passengers that way
I would imagine data protection/confidentiality would be difficult with total strangers only feet away.
It would pretty awkward if they had to off load the passenger to. :}

I think the service has a good future. And great for BA.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Your last paragraph, Barnaby, I agree with. I hope it does well.

The opening two paragraphs are tosh.

What do you think happens when passengers go through the current system? They are strangers presenting themselves to some official and if you they have to be off loaded or detained, fine, what's the big deal? Sorry old fruit, you clearly have little idea what customer service is about and need to get out more.

[cornishsimon]

Shouldnt this all be in the British Airways thread and not the current Cityflyer one? after all the LCY-JFK service is in fact a mainline service and not cityflyer!

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Which is what I said in an earlier post, Cornishsimon, and for that reason, I shall not post here again on that topic.

[Skipness One Echo]

They are strangers presenting themselves to some official and if you they have to be off loaded or detained, fine, what's the big deal? Sorry old fruit, you clearly have little idea what customer service is about and need to get out more.
Any issues, often innocent enough after investigation, would result in someone being escorted off the aircraft and a delay ensuing while their bags are found. I would find that humiliating. This is why there is a space behind you at Immigration so that if there is an issue you can be spoken to professionally without a private conversation being broadcast to all and sundry.
Think of the British Minister denied entry on an official visit to Washington. Twice. Did I mention he was a Muslim? Massively humiliating in any circumstances, being taken into custody and led off a flight would be crushing to anyone. That sir, is a big deal to anyone and I urge to think before you slag off a good and reasonable objection to your hare brained scheme. Customer service has to ba balanced against real other needs.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Whatever.
Goodbye.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Skippy, you old so and so, .... thanks for calling me Sir, at least you show some respect, for someone who has knowledge of the better things in life I know what I am talking about, you clearly have some catching up to do.

That's it from me, good luck.

[DutchBird-757]

Ok, back to the topic again. I've dug up something usefull for a chance...:p

Link: BA CityFlyer E170/190 Routes and inauguration AIRLINE ROUTE UPDATES (http://airlineroute.net/2009/07/09/ba-cityflyer-e170190-routes-and-inauguration/)

Does anyone know how I can copy-paste the text here with it still in the proper format as it is in the link. For some reason I couldn't paste it properly on Pprune.

[MikeStanton]

OOPS have been trying to paste for you but no joy either.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

DB757

Not hugely interesting, with respect.

[DutchBird-757]

FF, no worries. I posted it because I find this extremely usefull information as it gives an insight as how the operation is going to unfold/change over the next 6 months or so. It's better than sitting in the dark not knowing what is going to happen and when. But that might just be my Operations background kicking in...

[towser]

Flatspin, you seem to be getting less tolerant in your old age! Perhaps another trip to the Caribbean is in order! :)

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Towser,
Hopefully January for the Carib and it can't come quick enough. How's yer 170 doing? looks nice.
Am not really getting grumpy and less tolerant in my old age.... am I ? :sad:

[145qrh]

You used to be a grumpy bugger, now you are a grumpy old bugger!!:ok:

Only kidding Flatspin ...

[Flatspin_Fumble]

145qrh.... just you wait until WW does another deal with JF and then we shall see who the grumpy old bugger really is ! ( Short lived I can assure you ) you will get over it. Life on the Flybe side is good, it really is, no complaints a well managed company focusing on what they do best...... I have to admit the EMB looks good in the BA colours, but for how long though? Only kidding....... ha!

Anyway, good to hear from you.

[towser]

Flatspin. Enjoying the aircraft very much thanks. Not had any nasty cross winds in LCY yet so that may change my opinion but we'll see.

[Flatspin_Fumble]

Yes it really is a lovely aircraft - I do miss the EMB experience, but, you know, the Q400 is an okay machine, as you are aware, I have no experience of the old Dash, but those who do, tell me they are night and day. The Q400 performs better than the 145, ( on the routes we do ) on which I spent 10 years, so fair bit of EMB time, you would agree.

I would not expect to be on the Q400 too much longer, I am enjoying the flying from Athens hugely and as you probably are aware, that runs until end of August 2010, by which time I shall be full of Feta cheese and Mythos, the latter slips down rather well, BTW and come 2010, I shall be ready to spend my last few years of my 38 year career, thus far, as a grumpy, but very tolerant, old bugger on the 195.

Safe flying.

FF

[BAladdy]

Are BACF having problems with one of their new E-Jets?.

It's just I noticed the BA8734/BA8735 LCY/FRA/LCY rotation was cancelled today and the BA8736 is delayed 20:40. I am guessing they are going to use the E-jet coming in from EDI at 20:05 to operate the service.

How are the 2 new E-jets performing apart from todays delays??

[flying phil 2007]

E-Jets
got a ride on one of the shiny new e-jets on Monday coming down from Edinburgh on BA8703. The cabin feels a lot smaller than the old RJs. The seats are fine, only two either side of the aisle. Think there were only two cabin crew, rather than the normal three on the RJ.
On the descent into LCY the wing spoilers partially extend all the way down the glideslope which seems to cause a bit of vibration in the cabin. We hit the runway with a thump that caused some of the overhead bins to spring open and the woman next to me say a rude word..
Thought the crew might have mentioned it was a new jet, but they did not say anything.
Will have to see how they cope with operations into LCY. . but looks good so far...

[wxjedi]

Long story but ended up flying to AMS from EDI a few weeks a ago via LCY as SLF. Flew on the RJ to AMS and the ERJ to LCY.
I'll take the RJ any day. More space and feels like a tank. ERJ feels a bit plastic. Reminded me of the Q400.
I used to fly the 146 so maybe I'm a bit nostalgic but I don't think so.

Tom

PS the weekend in AMS was great.

[AirLCY]

Rare comments, I know a few people that work at LCY and they have had nothing but positve comments. The cabin is smaller, but has more space per customer than the RJ by far, the seats are nearly 2'' wider according to Embraer website.

[smith]

The cabin feels a lot smaller than the old RJs

Probably because it is!!!

[virginblue]

Are the RJ100s five- or six-abreast? If they are six-abreast, the E170 layout is a huge improvement - not only because it avoids middle-seats, but also allows for wider seats.

[DutchBird-757]

The RJ100's and 85's are six abreast.

[saman]

DutchBird,
I know it's a CityFlyer thread but to revert to my pedant role, BAW & AF are 6but most DLH are 5 - Swiss I don't know but I'd guess 5...

[DutchBird-757]

Swiss is also 5 abreast. 5 Abreast didn't make sense for BACF due to EDI/LCY flights that need the extra capacity. I think our passengers will like the 2 - 2 config of the E-Jets. They are very nice indeed!

@ Flying Phil. You can have a thump on landing on either aircraft. In LCY landings are meant to be a bit firmer than normal.

And regarding the spoilers during the approach. The aircraft uses the same basic aircraft controls, but the software enables the fly-by-wire system to deploy the spoilers to create extra drag. Physically, there is one extra button in the cockpit, which tells the system that a steep approach is to be performed. That simple button commands the number 4 and 5 outer wing spoilers to offset slightly while the control column is in a neutral position, creating the drag required to increase the rate of descent.

Initially when Crossair signed for the E170's the plan was to have an air brake, but that was later changed to this intelligent solution. It is retrofittable, so if airlines operating in Europe with E-170s or E-190s want to operate into London City, they will be able to do so with the aircraft they already have. In fact the software for this steep approach will be part of a bigger software upgrade package that the aircraft will be getting later this year. (2009)

Next airline to operate into LCY wit the E190 steep approach function wil be Babboo.(my guess!)

[32SQDN]

Interesting and informative reply there, DB. Thanks for that.

[virginblue]

most DLH are 5 - Swiss I don't know but I'd guess 5..

The day of 5-abreast Avro 85s at LH opb Cityline are long gone. They were reconfigured from 80seats five-abreast to 93seats six-abreast a couple of years ago - terribly cramped. The LH opb Eurowings BAe 146 have always been 6 abreast.

Swiss are indeed 5 abreast - nice and comfy.

[flying phil 2007]

Thanks Dutchbird for the info,
I have had plenty of 'firm arrivals' into LCY in RJs, the RJs just look a lot more tough than the E-Jets.
No complaints about the E-Jet, the seats do feel wider, the cabin is a lot brighter.
I wondered why they put it on the LCY-EDI route that always seems to be full as there are less seats on it that the RJ100?

[DutchBird-757]

I was initially wondering the same thing. The 8712 is always full and used to be an RJ100. But is makes sense training wise. After it's previous sector(AMS-LCY) they can get two extra sectors done, up to EDI and back, which is an engineering base. It's now the winter program which is why there is an extra LCY-EDI sector at 1730.

So, 8712 at 1700, 8710 at 1730 and 8708 at 1810. (E170,RJ85,RJ100)

[flying phil 2007]

BTW, on my last trip down from EDI to LCY on a BA RJ I had Alistair Darling, his wife (I presume) and his private detective sitting right in front of me. I could have given him a poke or some advice. Love the way virtually everybody on the flight totally ignored him. In the US he would have had his own 747!
I can reveal he did drink a small bottle of red wine..

[BAladdy]

It's now the winter program which is why there is an extra LCY-EDI sector at 1730.

So, 8712 at 1700, 8710 at 1730 and 8708 at 1810. (E170,RJ85,RJ100)

There is no 1730 departure this winter schedule from what I can see. At present the weekday departures ex LCY are

BA8700 07:00 (E70)
BA8702 08:50 (RJ85)
BA8716 14:30 (RJ85)
BA8712 17:00 (E70)
BA8708 18:10 (RJ100)
BA8718 20:15 (RJ100)

On the EDI/LCY route BACF last summer operated 4 x RJ100 and 2 x RJ85 daily. It looks like the timetable next summer will use 4 x E170's and 2 x E190's. This mean BACF will offer 570 seats less per week. That is 114 per day. Taking this info into account will BACF add another frequency to the route next summer?.

Since the E-Jet started on the EDI route the last EDI departure for LCY, BA8717 18:50, is normally is fully booked. The BA8707, 16:30 departure, Is also normally full or has just a few seats available daily. A additional flight say around 17:30 would probably do well.

[DutchBird-757]

Well, I just checked the BA system and there is a 1730 departure but it seems only on wed/thursday's. And from late APR, early MAY, 2010 the E190's will start doing the late EDI's and returning to LCY on the next morning as the 8701/11.

Any idea how many flights/seats Cityjet are doing up to EDI these days? Are they now mostly D328's?

[towser]

I could be wrong but I think they are all 328's now. I certainly keep passing them in both directions on the 8700/3!!

[BAladdy]

AF operate 6 x daily with a D38 and 1 x daily with a RJ85.

RJ85 operates first flight ex EDI and 18:55 departure from LCY.

They offer at present offer 281 seats daily.


With BACF bringing another E70 online next week, operating MAD flights, does anyone know when the next RJ will leave the fleet?

[RJ100]

I believe G-CFAA is going back when the next next EMB comes online, so next week.

[AirLCY]

I hear the plan once all E190's delivered is to have 4 x E190 and 2 x E170 daily, unless they decide to add more daily flights.

[WHBM]

BA have a corporate sales agreement on the EDI-LCY route with Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), who have headquarters buildings in both Edinburgh and Canary Wharf. As you may have read in the press, following the financial difficulties at RBS it is to be broken up and the English banks it owns (Nat West etc) are to be separated out from the Scottish. This can only mean an end to the very substantial travel by execs of the organisationbetween the two cities, and almost certainly a significant reduction in travel on the route which has effectively been an RBS shuttle.

[CheekyVisual]

Everybody knew the RBS contract wasn't forever even in the good times. London - Edinburgh is always going to be a major business trunk route even without RBS and as the good times return so will the business. With the investment in the E Jets BA must be looking long term and that wouldn't have included RBS. I hope.

[ELondonPax]

@WHBM. Errrm, I think you are wide of the mark.
First - RBS do not have any offices in Canary Wharf - their London offices are in the City.
Second - RBS will continue to own NatWest - the divestment affects only seven NatWest branches north of the border and some RBS branches (mainly in northern England).

I have no insight on whether RBS will continue the existing commercial arrangements with BA. But there is nothing in the announcements this week that will change the need for business travel between London and Edinburgh.

[BAladdy]

I see that BACF's 4th E170 (G-LCYG) has arrived at EXT today.

I was wondering how the E170 is performing??. I know from a pax point of view it is a great improvement. However how are they doing operationally.

Was in NCL on business and noticed a BACF E170 on a remote stand and a rather large queue at the BA ticket desk last Wednesday around 09:00. Guessing it was BA8700 diverted from EDI. Does anyone know if it was a weather related diversion or a tech problem?.

Finally does anyone know when BACF will publish their S10 timetable?.

Thanks in advance for any info?

[SWBKCB]

Was in NCL on business and noticed a BACF E170 on a remote stand and a rather large queue at the BA ticket desk last Wednesday around 09:00. Guessing it was BA8700 diverted from EDI. Does anyone know if it was a weather related diversion or a tech problem?.

Weather related (cross winds)

[DutchBird-757]

Remember reading 200/38G50 on the TAF that day. Same ish for GLA.

[towser]

It was weather related. They had 2 go-arounds due to windshear and in view of the fact the wind in GLA was the same or worse elected to go to Newcastle. In response to BAladdy they are performing pretty well so far. There have been a few minor issues as you might expect when introducing a new fleet but generally its been pretty good.

[cornishsimon]

any idea if they are likely to take the options / purchase rights ?

[32SQDN]

What is the difference between an 'option' and a 'purchase right'? Does anyone know?

[RJ100]

My understanding is: Options, if exercised you buy the aircraft at the same price you paid with the firm order. A purchase right just gives slots on the production line with the price to be negotiated when a deal is signed.

BACF have Options on 3 (I believe 190's) And Purchase rights on a further 15.

RJ.

[32SQDN]

Ah right - thanks for that.

15! - I didn't they had purchase rights on that many. Where would they use them?

[DutchBird-757]

An "option" gives an airline a right to a future aircraft under a predefined business arrangement. Each option has a defined delivery position as well as an option exercise date and requires a non-refundable option deposit to secure each option position.

A purchase right is where an airline will predefine a business arrangement for future aircraft. Typically the right will be valid for a defined period of time but has no delivery position assigned. Purchase rights require no deposits, which means an airline can only exercise a purchase right if there is an available aircraft within their purchase right "window".

Hope that helps.

[32SQDN]

Thanks DB.
What advantage is there in having a purchase right, then. As the manufacturer would not put it into the build plan without an order, presumably.

[seat 13a]

OK - as a regular into LCY, does a mainline dispute over longhaul cabin staffing levels affect BA Cityflyer - and when will the long-suffering SLF know???

[cornishsimon]

shouldnt have any effect at LCY, as far as i am aware the cityflyer staff are on totally seperate contracts to mainline staff.

CS

[seat 13a]

Best news I've had all year - with 40 roundtrips a year into City and the odd F and J longhaul, I still get better service on the LCY routes. Long may it remain so...

[DutchBird-757]

Should indeed have no effect for LCY at all. Other news that does affect BA at LCY:

==
This morning we are announcing two new routes to popular Spanish sun spots direct from London City.

The new flights to Palma, Majorca and Ibiza will take off from London City Airport in May 2010.

Travelling direct from The Docklands, on the brand new Embraer 190 aircraft, passengers can be on the beach in the Balearics is less than three hours.

It’s the first time British Airways has operated leisure only flights from London City Airport but there is a growing demand for flights to the sun, particularly with customers looking for short breaks.

The initial three-times-a-week service will operate on Friday, Sunday and Monday, offering an ideal schedule for passengers looking for a weekend or longer break. There are plans to increase the frequency in the peak summer months, when demand for business travel is reduced.

All inclusive one way fares are available from £69, and will be available to book on ba.com later this morning.

:ok:
==

[Skipness One Echo]

Actually they're a different company. Part of the BA group but beyond that any action would be secondary which is of course illegal.

[wxjedi]

shouldnt have any effect at LCY, as far as i am aware the cityflyer staff are on totally seperate contracts to mainline staff.

yes, but the JFK service will be in trouble.

Tom

[DutchBird-757]

Forgot about that one as well. Still getting used to the Airbus at LCY.

Anyway, managed to find the flight schedueles;

London City – Ibiza 21MAY10 – 12SEP10
BA8461 LCY0700 – 1015IBZ E90 FRI
BA8461 LCY1105 – 1420IBZ E70 MON
BA8461 LCY1300 – 1620IBZ E90 SUN
BA8462 IBZ1100 – 1225LCY E90 FRI
BA8462 IBZ1505 – 1630LCY E70 MON
BA8462 IBZ1750 – 1910LCY E90 SUN

London City – Palma Mallorca 21MAY10 – 13SEP10
BA8483 LCY0710 – 1025PMI E70 FRI
BA8483 LCY1215 – 1530PMI E90 MON
BA8483 LCY1420 – 1735PMI E90 SUN
BA8484 PMI1055 – 1210LCY E70 FRI
BA8484 PMI1615 – 1730LCY E90 MON
BA8484 PMI1845 – 2000LCY E90 SUN

Basically ideal for a long weekend. Friday morning to monday evening. Even handy if your working on monday, especially the PMI return.

[RJ100]

The LCY-JFK route is crewed from Gatwick. Gatwick CC are on a different contract to that of the LHR crews which already included the reduced crew number of crew onboard. So the routes out of LGW should not be affected. Number I heard was that 80% of the crew in LGW are not part of the strike action. But please check with BA regarding LGW routes, as my info may not be accurate.


RJ.