PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Airlines, Airports & Routes (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes-85/)
-   -   Flybe-V1 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html)

BA318 9th Apr 2021 15:55

A good attitude to take. One which would make it even harder for Flybe2 to succeed if adopted by more companies.

Jamie2009 9th Apr 2021 16:15

Its show business not show friends...... and no, the worlds not fair.... BUT Logan didn't mind trying to put the boot in over the recent OL and RL CAA meeting and I doubt easy are making cash on BHX/MAN to Scotland on a 200 seat Jet.

I do feel for the companies owed cash and even the other regional airlines that have battled trough COVID and racked up debt to survive.
They will have a debt free, well run, low cost airline thats competing hard against them on regional routes and they will struggle to compete and service their debt.

Flybe was in bad health and Covid was the final nail in its coffin, it is ironic that it may actually be the best thing to happen to them going forward.

oapilot 9th Apr 2021 16:33

Don't think you can blame Loganair after Flybe put the boot in following the break up of the franchise. As you say though, allís fair...

If they do get going it will be interesting to see if you really can run a low cost airline using 78 seat turboprops without racking up huge debts long term.

Will be interesting to see if BALPA go for a class action on TUPE too.

SWBKCB 9th Apr 2021 16:40


Originally Posted by oapilot (Post 11025184)
Don't think you can blame Loganair after Flybe put the boot in following the break up of the franchise. As you say though, allís fair...

Remind me what happened with BMIR and Loganair?

cavokblues 9th Apr 2021 17:26

I think there's a difference between wanting an airline to fail and saying it's all about slots.

I've no axe to grind with Flybe, I very nearly worked for them, but likewise I have a horrible nagging suspicion this is all about slots. I think it is possible, from my perspective anyway, to wish any new airline well but remain suspicious around the motives. That's purely based on my conclusions around the venture capitalists who were involved and reading the EY reports and CAA reports.

If it isn't slot related was the Flybe brand really that revered that it's worth all these legal battles to resurrect?

RogueOne 9th Apr 2021 18:16

Just remember whilst you're throwing muck at this new venture, it is exactly that. A BRAND NEW AIRLINE. The name and intellectual property were acquired.. it's a clean beginning.

The bad management gone, airframes gone, routes gone, bases gone, staff gone, the AOC, OL, RL might also be gone, and the slots may go too.

However, what isn't gone, is the willingness to give hope to those who've spent their own money, time, resources to be ready to step up if called to. Aviation professionals.

For these people, have a bit of compassion. I'm sure the naysayers on here would feel different if it were their company.

southamptonavgeek 9th Apr 2021 19:48

Very well said. I could not have put it better myself. I do hope that this new Flybe succeeds - it may be all about slots but I think that, at this stage, it's very unlikely. I guess that only time will tell now.

SWBKCB 9th Apr 2021 20:06


Just remember whilst you're throwing muck at this new venture, it is exactly that. A BRAND NEW AIRLINE. The name and intellectual property were acquired.. it's a clean beginning.
Can somebody just clarify this point? If so, why the long dance with the CAA and the receivers?

BA318 9th Apr 2021 21:11

southamptonavgeek

Can you give any reasons you expect success? Given it failed in the past, most airlines are barely making any money and it now has competition on the routes it previously operated (often with a monopoly). It’s also chosen to use a brand which was tarnished and most public will remember as that airline that covid killed leaving people out of pocket and stranded. The cards are just not in its favour.

As I said before we all want airlines to succeed. But we also have to be realistic. What are the gaps in the market you see this airline with a couple of Dash 8s serving?

RogueOne 9th Apr 2021 22:36

SWBKCB

Due diligence & keeping the existing OL, RL & AOC is substantially easier than setting up new ones. There are many examples of functioning airlines being bought for their AOCs rather than start that process from scratch.

& if there are remedy slots available, albeit limited in what can be flown on them - wouldn't you at least try?

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take!

Atlantic Explorer 9th Apr 2021 22:38

BA318

Agreed. I think the reality is that if they get off the ground, there’s not nearly enough regional business to sustain everyone currently and at least one airline will go to the ground.

The Flybe brand is trashed, and I really just can’t see any gap in the market for a new ‘Flybe’ in the current climate. Loganair are clearly worried about the new adventure commencing operations given their involvement thus far which probably highlights the fragile nature of UK domestic at the moment and the near to mid future.

RogueOne 9th Apr 2021 22:57

southamptonavgeek can add to this.... but here's my take. Which again I assert, you probably don't care for. I think you're here for the skepticism, the Flybe bashing sycophantic posting and trolling.


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11025323)
Can you give any reasons you expect success? Given it failed in the past, most airlines are barely making any money and it now has competition on the routes it previously operated (often with a monopoly).

All the old dead wood is gone, the bad management has gone, all the old airframes are gone, all the expensive jets - with expensive lease and maintenance deals are gone, the big spread of unprofitable routes and bases are gone, the debt is gone... it's a clean slate


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11025323)
It’s also chosen to use a brand which was tarnished and most public will remember as that airline that covid killed leaving people out of pocket and stranded. The cards are just not in its favour.

Whilst not the best brand, it certainly was the most recognisable in regional aviation and that in itself is valuable. Brands can heal, and those outside of aviation (SLF), give little regard for some lost luggage, or if covid cost someone they don't know the price of a ticket. All companies and airlines get bad press, fortunes turn. They don't sit on twitter and PPrune reading how much you don't like airline x.


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11025323)
As I said before we all want airlines to succeed. But we also have to be realistic. What are the gaps in the market you see this airline with a couple of Dash 8s serving?

Nobody knows at this point, but why can't they focus on Flybe's old profitable routes, from the profitable bases and go from there. The Dash was a great weapon of choice for these. Birmingham, Southampton, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast... maybe with LHR and LCY & some PSO flights to NQY etc. Keep it simple for now. The Dash (even though no future fleet has been decided on) was a better prospect than an ATR or a Saab et al. Flies faster, flies higher, flies further, carries more people.

Here's a challenge to anyone hoping this new airline fails.... before asking why won't it work, I dare you to come up with 1 or 2 reasons it will.

If you've nothing nice to say, say nothing! Good luck to them.

BA318 10th Apr 2021 08:20

You seem to think I want them to fail. Personally I don’t care. I hope they do succeed but history shows there is only room for so many carriers flying the same routes. I am not one of those who believe they just want the slots. I just don’t think the airline will work because the market has moved on and the gap it once filled has gone.

We don’t have to be silent just because you want to see Flybe back. Everyone has a right to question and look into things.

As for the brand, very few airline brands get redirected after failure. People don’t need to read Pprune to know Flybe failed. It was all over the national media for a week.

The possible routes you list have already been taken over. Blue Islands, Loganair, Aurigny, Eastern have moved in. EasyJet has gone in the bigger ones. The NQY PSO is gone. And no carrier has made LHR-EDI/ABZ work except BA. Just look at the names who failed on it - BMI (even with Lufthansa backing), Virgin, Flybe 1. From most reports LCY lost them money too.

The new carrier will need to find niches. Perhaps London to some of the smaller destinations in Scandinavia/Germany might work. We will have to see how Brexit restrictions affect second homes in France and Spain as that could be another market like the SOU routes (although BA and Eastern have moved on them too).

That’s why I was asking how you think they can succeed. I’m not trolling. I’m just not seeing the same opportunities you seem to. So please stop the name calling and understand people can have a difference of opinion without it being just to wind someone up. And as I said if those optimistic about this can share some possible routes where they see a gap then do share - maybe I’m not aware of gaps in the market and missing part of the picture.

Asturias56 10th Apr 2021 08:25

"People don’t need to read PPRuNe to know Flybe failed."

especially those who used it and had bookings there - people have along memory for that sort of thing

As for the Dash - its been eaten alive by the ATR in just about every market in the world

cavokblues 10th Apr 2021 09:51

RogueOne

I do struggle to think of any. Most of the old profitable routes have been jumped on by other airlines and they're too thin to require two airlines competing against each other. There's probably a very good reason other airlines haven't jumped on the other routes.

This new airline will no doubt at some point be subject to a TUPE claim. And a new airline will not want the old airline's pilot agreements shackled to them.

As BA318 points out, where is the niche? What will set them aside to make them attractive over other airlines to pax?

willy wombat 10th Apr 2021 09:59

I would just add that this is not the “Flybe Appreciation” thread and people are allowed to give their views without it being considered trolling. I largely agree with BA318’s points. Additionally, I don’t believe that a reborn Flybe would create nett new jobs as there’s only so much space in the regional sector and any jobs generated by new Flybe would cause a similar number of jobs to be lost in those airlines that have taken over the ex Flybe routes. BTW I’m sticking to my guns in that I firmly believe that this is just a slots play. Time will tell.

SWBKCB 10th Apr 2021 10:12

RogueOne

Didn't take Aer Lingus too long... :ok:

Seems like the "BRAND NEW AIRLINE" is the old one without the debtors.

ATNotts 10th Apr 2021 10:26

willy wombat

The plan may be misguided, or doomed to failure but if it were to be just a "slots" game then they've gone to quite some extent to disguise it.

It's unlikely that any new carrier would create anything like the number of jobs that FlyBe supported at the end, but if they can build steadily, and turn a profit then who know where the new carrier might be in 5 years time. I don't know, neither does anyone else but a number of aviation professional appear to have taken the view that on balance it's worth a shot, and it's their careers not ours.

oldart 10th Apr 2021 10:27

Seems like the "BRAND NEW AIRLINE" is the old one without the debtors.

SWBKCB Exactly, I couldn't agree more, people seem to have forgotten that.

ATNotts 10th Apr 2021 10:52

Exactly! It's a variation on the "prepack administration" that I discussed several posting up the thread. It unethical, it's unfair and it's wrong - but in UK to name one country, it's legal! I suspect other countries have similarly distasteful processes.


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:06.


Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.