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-   -   Flybe-V1 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html)

TOM100 14th Mar 2021 18:40

SWBKCB

Didn’t Loganair and their parent (Airline Investment Limited) also not wipe out a load of debts by allowing bmi Regional (who they also owned) to go bust (along with its debts) and cherry pick the best bits/routes to Loganair ? I don’t profess to know the exact detail. So not sure they can claim to be holier than thou in such matters - not sure what harm this did or didn’t do to BEE in the process in terms of the competitive environment.

Albert Hall 14th Mar 2021 18:54

I'd be surprised if Flybe even noticed when bmi Regional went out of business. Except for those who had the misfortune to work there at the time of its collapse, I'm sure the same could be said of most others.

If this is a "slot play" as rumoured, the nub of the issue is surely that this has only gone on because of the Coronavirus airport slot waivers from the 80/20 rules. If it wasn't for that, the slots would be long gone by now. I don't know what the "New Flybe" has planned but it does seem as though the Coronavirus rules might be used and abused to revive an airline which was in trouble long before we'd ever heard that dreaded C word? If that's so, I can see why others might be quite exercised about it.

Are the submissions to the CAA hearing panel in the public domain anywhere, or is there any (legal) way of obtaining them?

TOM100 14th Mar 2021 18:57

There is a link to something in Post #161

cavokblues 14th Mar 2021 19:09

TOM100

Yep. And then lost a TUPE claim by the pilots they took on. Not sure that precedent would be helpful for Flybe MKII, should it ever happen.

Jamie2009 18th Mar 2021 16:29

Flybe’s administration has been extended to 3 years

airsouthwest 28th Mar 2021 01:48

There seems to be a lot of things going on at the moment.
1) It seems the CAA are playing hardball and not wanting to give Thyme Opco an easy ride, Although I'm unable to work out if they have suspicions this is a grab and go by T.O or if it's the usual CAA/Gov body bureaucracy.
2) Thyme Opco are making accusations about the CAA and throwing their toys out of the pram.
3) Lots of media speculation about the current situation
4) Several people not wanting to see Flybe return, I note comments of "Just let the airline die".

In my personal opinion I fail to see why TO would buy two second hand aircraft and risk wasting thousands of pounds to buy a few slots at Heathrow & Manchester. Yes the rewards would be great if they got them but the risks of this all going tits up are far too high. It also seems that the CAA is in a situation it has never been in before or something along those lines as judging from the letter to the administrators they don't really know what to do and keep putting red tape in the way.

biddedout 28th Mar 2021 09:33

I agree ASW, it does seem odd that the CAA are being extraordinarily pernickety with TO considering how easy going they are in approving so many other new ragtag multi-jurisdiction multi ownership layered so called “UK” operators to nail a brass plate on a broom cupboard door. I wonder why?

Dorking 28th Mar 2021 10:19

Maybe the CAA are wary of trying to make a souffle rise twice

davidjohnson6 28th Mar 2021 10:36

Is allowing a company to buy the licences of a bankrupt airline solely to sell off slots that would otherwise go into a pool compatible with what an intelligent observer would regard as an orderly competitive market ? Would the CAA risk a legal challenge from other airlines if a pseudo-Flybe was allowed to revive that operated no passenger flights but did sell LHR slots before closing again ?

I don't know the answers but it must be at least on the minds of CAA and/or DfT lawyers

southamptonavgeek 28th Mar 2021 14:07

airsouthwest

You do always seem to be the voice of reason on here. From what I can see, your opinion makes complete sense - I am one of those hoping for the relaunch to be a success.

On a side note, it appears that Farrell, who resigned following the CAA news last month, was listed on Companies House as a 'partner' with Peachey being the 'director'. I am not experienced in this kind of business so please do correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'd guess that his departure is not the sign of failure that many news outlets want it to be. Amongst others, I remember one article which said that the airline was 'grounded' - that very same day, G-CLXC took off from Exeter!

OwnNav 28th Mar 2021 14:09

G-ECOJ
 
G-ECOJ en-route Iceland today, still in Flybe livery.

Pistonprop 28th Mar 2021 14:29

And I believe onwards to Abbotsford BC., to be converted to an air tanker capable of carrying just over 2600 gallons of retardant. They will (sadly) replace the airline's Convair 580 fleet.

airsouthwest 28th Mar 2021 17:33

Southamptonavgeek

The media aren't very good when it comes to aviation anyway. I've seen incident reports on the news before about an Airbus 787!

I don't exactly know what's going on inside T.O but this idea they are only interested in slots doesn't make sense to me. One it's a got a high level of failure and very likely to cost of lot of money before they even get anywhere. Second, if they really wanted the Heathrow slots why not keep the original Flybe going on a scaled down basis? Presumably everyone in the business would have known the situation.

airsouthwest 28th Mar 2021 17:38

davidjohnson6

Again, How do you know this is what the plan is? Firstly it's very likely to fail, It's not possible to take over bankrupt airlines AOC so any new company would need to get a new one, To do that they need to have proof of an airline ready to go. The very high capital needed just to start an airline would eat away any profits from the Heathrow slots which I presume are still for regional flights anyway. Second if all they were interested in was the Heathrow slots, Why didn't the just scale down Flybe until they got the grandfather rights, Why keep a big loss making airline going, let it go bankrupt and then try revive it under the same name?

southside bobby 28th Mar 2021 17:53

Venture Capitalism very possibly the two resonant words as answer.

airsouthwest 28th Mar 2021 22:24

That doesn't mean anything quite frankly. A second hand Q400 would at least cost £3 million each. Plus all the legal costs of getting an AOC, additional approvals etc and the costs of buying the Flybe brand. By the time all these costs have added up it's probably close to what they will get for the Heathrow sots. Which still can only be used for European routes NOT long-haul.

Every time I ask someone to explain why the believe it's a cut and dash job they have no real answer other than "It's a capitalist firm" I can only conclude that it's either people who are against Capitalism or people who hated Flybe want just want the airline to stay bankrupt. Now especially given the covid pandemic I suspect slots will become more freely available by next year as airlines try to rebuild, Therefore prices will likely be low.

southside bobby 29th Mar 2021 04:07

..."concluded" wrongly in some instances then.

cavokblues 29th Mar 2021 07:08

airsouthwest

The CAA report into their refusal didn't make particularly good reading for many other conclusions, IMO. They wanted to restart the airline and continue it as legal entity without any of the legacy debt. Further to that, the resignation of one of their directors around the time of that report does add fuel to the fire they were only after a few things.

It doesn't all quite add up, the EY administrators report state that whilst Flybe has been granted grandfathering rights the administrators will want to sell those to repay creditors.

If they can grab the slots and sell them we know, in pre Covid times, the value is huge. Air NZ sold their slot for $27m only last March. The potential value of the slots Thyme could gain far outweighs the costs of a few second hand Dash's and start up costs. (I appreciate they're currently only able to be used for a few destinations but I guess one could argue that was made by an EU court regulating the sale of BMI - could that be potentially challenged in a post Brexit UK courtroom?)

If they really wanted to restart an airline surely they could just buy the brand off the administrator and restart as a new legal entity / or start afresh with a clean new image?

airsouthwest 29th Mar 2021 19:25

Air NZ slots were long haul, Flybe's can only be used for short haul even with grandfather rights so the idea they would make millions out of it isn't true. 3 time i've said that now.

airsouthwest 29th Mar 2021 19:27

southside bobby

We both know you're a Flybe hater so I suspect it's more you don't want them to come back rather than actually believing the nonsense you spout.


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