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Rutan16 27th Jul 2018 13:32

FF MAN I smell the sent of a rat with this love fest for Heathrow !

An idea suddenly springs to mind, lets build out Heathrow scrap regional long haul and regional jobs spend more billions in Spelthorne , Hillingdon and Hounslow that will relieve the pressure and you can perhaps still get your reward mileage whilst the economy of the region declines further !

Tin hat off !

I am critical of the time MAG group took to get the TP underway however they had to convince a rather large and none local shareholder to sign off first.

I have acknowledged the failings of T1 and T3 both unfit for their current purposes.

Indeed in hindsight T1BA was a waste of resources designed specifically for a use that would quickly disappear.

Both Manchester and Birmingham got lumbered with infrastructure unfit to meet the sudden changed landscape.

Then Central Government decrees some knee jerk imho - on security rendered T2 landslide difficult whilst T1 airside almost impossible to achieve.

Still we are where we are and better late than never.

As for Mr Atis he is big enough to fight his own battles , he is normally insightful however simply called in bluff the throw away last resort comment.

He chooses the train to Edinburgh itís workable via York less so via the direct service- TPE trains being little more than regional commuter units of 4 coaches.
Southampton I stand my ground nightmare via rail from and to Manchester period.




PapaEchoNovember 27th Jul 2018 13:50

Manchester is an absolute disgrace to the region and there is only one fesable solution..

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...11ee37e041.gif

GEB74 27th Jul 2018 14:02

Some of Apologisms on here for Manchester Airport management are mind blowing...........
The utter lie that the new T2 is going to sort the airports problems out needs calling out.
Demand continues to grow and is probably at suppression point about now.

Where is the refurbishment / expansion / rebuild / plan for T3?
Has a FINAL decision been made on what (if any) is going to be left of T1 by the end of the T2 redevelopment period? Because if there is much left, it's gonna need a lot of re-work........
Where's the planned fourth pier for T2 been buried??
Assuming the existing development work continues until 2023 and the airport does not want major works on another part of the airport to commence until they've finished the existing programme - does that mean essentially that T3 will be 'As Is' until what, 2025? Anyone on here looking forward to another 7 years of that sh*te?!
Do the usual apologists think this is acceptable??
Remember, we all pay Manchester Airport the Passenger Facilities Charge as part of our ticket price - I believe in summer and at peak times, it's over £11. Throw in the Security Charge and the total is around £17 per person, per departure (happy to be corrected, discounts may apply etc). What should we have the right to expect for our monies?
Too little, too late, too slow.

MANFOD 27th Jul 2018 14:34

Mr A Tis, re your comments:
"The trouble at T3 (like the others) there is no consistency, will the process take 10 minutes or two hours to get airside? Their own agreed security service level is 15 minutes, which is in their gift to provide if they employed enough staff.
Reports of the free drop off area are that some people are waiting 45 minutes for a free shuttle because the 15 minute service is full. Again within their gift but ignored. At a recent meeting they discussed either upping the service to 10 minutes or providing dedicated terminal buses- but decided the existing plan was enough.
Again at their recent meeting they discussed cleanliness etc- again kicked into long grass.
The User committee asked for more resources rather than continuing to inflate their already record profits"


Do I take it you are either on the User Committee as a passenger representative or have a good contact who is?

As regards security queues at T3, and T1 for that matter, do we know some hard facts such as how many security channels and scanners are there? Is there physical space to accommodate more (if there were staff to do so)? On average, how many security lanes are open and staffed at peak periods in each terminal?

In an earlier post you stated:
" Hence a number of airlines bosses, The CAA & Dept for Transport are monitoring the situation- I can't say more than that here".

Is it just 'monitoring' or are you implying notice has in effect been served on MAN to improve with the threat of action if they don't? From an airline perspective I can appreciate they could halt expansion plans or in theory even pull out altogether however unlikely that may seem for the larger carriers. Apart from fines, I guess the CAA could reduce the current capacity limits at peak times, could they?

I'm just trying to understand what the feeling is inside the industry (as opposed to passengers who can't wait to vent their anger on social media and the M.E.N., although I accept some of those views may be perfectly justified). Bearing in mind, easyjet have announced significant expansion at MAN this winter and next summer and some new long haul routes are starting this winter.

Incidentally, I'm sure the original announcement about drop-off charges at terminals but free shuttle buses available for drop-off at a remote park, mentioned a service every 10 minutes. It was only later not long before the new system started if I'm not mistaken that the frequency was to be every 15 minutes. I think the first I heard it was from the spokeswoman on GMR the day before drop-off fees were activated.

Skipness One Foxtrot 27th Jul 2018 14:44


Then Central Government decrees some knee jerk imho - on security rendered T2 landslide difficult whilst T1 airside almost impossible to achieve.
Interesting, how so?

Rutan16 27th Jul 2018 14:54

Rolling programme of works build out the northwestern end of T2 move Jet2 and TCX out of T1 ease some pressure .

There Will be a slow down in growth realised and potential over the next few years imho.

Regretably I donít see any easy quick or dirty solutions to T3 other than it needs to come down even before T1 it simply doesnít function in today environment from a business or security point of view.

T1 with some pressure easied by a few tenants being persuaded to move north would be remodelled sufficiently to remain for a further decade imho.
Pier B could be replaced with a parallel structure been done before .


Yes a hodgepodge and a compromised approach however the site is now so constrained where could you go .

A completely new terminal WOULD be a shed similar to Spekes nothing glamorous but where to put it your answers on post card !

North East Cheshire certain wonít help or part fund it anywhere west or south of current structure.

Hell they wonít support a few buses from Wilmslow into the Greater Manchester these days.

Rutan16 27th Jul 2018 15:16

Skip primarily I refer to the UK governments blind instance that the EU levels of screening practices are somehow unacceptable yet they are happy to receive the advance passenger manifests !

Many EU airports have managed to build in Schengen and Rest of world separation far more effectively.

I think the UK should have done similar but a blind one rule applies.

The Post Glasgow Land slide traffic rules are the epitome of knee jerk imho.

And yes I think the post security at least within the EU of fully screens passenger flows up and down piers via stairs and maze of corridors is simply grandstanding.

As for outside the EU and perhaps the US I accept thatís different. Again many of the competing EU mainland airports have squared that circle already.

Still the UK does things differently and will do more so in the years ahead whether the solutions are better or worse Who knows.

For certain departure level security delivery oft outsourced is not the most effective or efficient at quite few UK airports right now.

Very present - effective more questionable imho.







Curious Pax 27th Jul 2018 16:28


Originally Posted by Rutan16 (Post 10207721)
Regretably I donít see any easy quick or dirty solutions to T3 other than it needs to come down even before T1 it simply doesnít function in today environment from a business or security point of view.

I only rarely fly through T3, so donít quite grasp the antipathy to it - not denying itís an issue, just curious, comes with the name I guess! From my limited observation it mostly seems to be the constrained Ďhanging aroundí area airside before you head towards the gates. Security outbound and Immigration inbound donít strike me as an issue if (a big if I know) properly manned so all lanes/scanners are in use.

If that that area is indeed the case, then as part of the transformation shuffle I would think that if they could empty T3 for a year then completely gut the place they would have options to shrink the current check in area depth in order to expand airside, and remodel the shopping area. Also, if you look at an aerial view, there seems to be redundant space behind the pier containing the 50s gates towards landslide that could be used to make a much wider pier, possibly giving an alternative location for some shops.

FFMAN 27th Jul 2018 18:25


Originally Posted by Rutan16 (Post 10207721)
Yes a hodgepodge and a compromised approach however the site is now so constrained where could you go .
A completely new terminal WOULD be a shed similar to Spekes nothing glamorous but where to put it your answers on post card !

A good question.
I have thought for some time (given that my line of work is major projects) that the most logical way to deal with the T1 and T3 problem is to extend T2 eastwards, more or less in a straight line towards the old Ringway Road towards the end of the T3 50s stands.
Much of what is there now is empty space particularly that area between the T1 MSCP and the Rail Station. The majority of the construction could take place whilst the present T1 is in operation. Once built, both T1 and T3 would be flattened leaving a lot more airside space for building out however many piers are needed for decades to come.
The end result would be a single large linear terminal with linear drop-off / pick-up ramp instead of the spaghetti mess of the current road system twisting round the current terminals. This terminal would also be much closer to the rail station or even integrated with it.. It would make Manchester a more attractive place to transfer too - which it most definitely isn't at the moment.

I've found that over all the years I worked in projects that almost nothing is impossible. This 'can't do' attitude just seems to be the case in Britain particularly outside London. As a nation we are just not very good at this sort of problem fixing, everything is too difficult or too expensive here and it is why I prefer to work on projects in other countries.....but then I have to use MAN to do that .....(!)
Maybe I should give up and take an early retirement :)

chinapattern 27th Jul 2018 18:25


Originally Posted by Manezytom (Post 10207391)
any news on primera slots for EWR & IAD ?

Theyíve handed them back. Doubtful Malaga will start either.

Mr A Tis 27th Jul 2018 18:35

Rutan 16
Don't want to prolong non MAN info- but my trip on TPE to Edinburgh the other week was 8 coaches- with a First at back and front. Most intermediate stops have now been removed (eg non stop Piccadilly to Preston) wins hands down. Keep up.

RAS_2001 28th Jul 2018 07:07

I personally prefer TPE over Northern or any other network rail company i.e. Arriva, Cross Country, or even VS.
they provide the most valuable and excellent customer service compared to other companies which operate out of Piccadilly. Although, things may have improved as I have not been on a train in around 5-6 months. Then again, what has changed in the past 6 months... ? Ive travelled on first class both with virgin train and TPE, and I have to say, TPE's first class was clean, the quality of the food was on point, and the staff were very friendly and welcoming.

My experience with VS on the other hand was the complete antithesis. First of all, they're standard of service is nowhere near where they proclaim it to be. Also, when I got served, half of the food was COLD. The only positive I could come out with was the desert and coffee, both of which were freshly made and actually edible and enjoyable.

rkenyon 28th Jul 2018 12:39


Originally Posted by Mr A Tis (Post 10206276)
6am T1 =90 minutes for security or 50 minutes fast track- thatís my experience.
have to face it yet again this Sunday at 8am.

Now airport of last resort.

I travel through T1 weekly, and it's never taken me more than about 10 minutes to get through FastTrack security (I go at various different times). I do think you are exaggerating your case somewhat.

nigel osborne 28th Jul 2018 12:48


Originally Posted by chinapattern (Post 10207861)


Theyíve handed them back. Doubtful Malaga will start either.

Lucky escape Manchester. Been a disaster at BHX !

MANFOD 28th Jul 2018 13:36

Yes Nigel, I doubt too many tears are being shed.

That said, it would be nice to get IAD back on the MAN departure boards but preferably with a rather more reliable airline!

Johnny [email protected] Pants 28th Jul 2018 14:45


Originally Posted by Mr A Tis [img]images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img]
6am T1 =90 minutes for security or 50 minutes fast track- thatís my experience.
have to face it yet again this Sunday at 8am.
6am this morning - drop off was a breeze, no queuing approaching the terminal like there used to be. Check in was quick and efficient, and no real dramas at security, from stepping out of the taxi to being through security was less than 1/2 an hour. I speak as I find, and this morning I found MAN T1 to be very good despite the huge numbers transitting the place.

RAS_2001 28th Jul 2018 16:41

Personally I think Primera would be the more viable option from Manchester should they decide to launch IAD and/or EWR using the A321NEO.

chaps1954 28th Jul 2018 18:56

I hope they don`t start as they are damaged goods in the UK now, the only thing in their favour is aircraft size in that TCX and VS operate aircraft that are
too large for IAD.

FRatSTN 28th Jul 2018 19:31

https://www.ttgmedia.com/wtm/wtm-ins...nfidence-14885

Allegedly there's no plans currently to fly transatlantic from Manchester

RAS_2001 28th Jul 2018 23:04


Originally Posted by chaps1954 (Post 10208679)
I hope they don`t start as they are damaged goods in the UK now, the only thing in their favour is aircraft size in that TCX and VS operate aircraft that are
too large for IAD.

Youre not making any sense. Firsrly, IAD can handle anywhere from 10-12 777s at a time, with still some spare capacity for aircraft like 767s and 787s.
Also, the largest aircraft in TCX's fleet is an Airbus A330-200 , which is smaller than a Boeing 777-200er...
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