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Ribble56 18th Sep 2017 08:15

Manchester-2
 
I had the misfortune use Manchester a couple of times recently, and not having passed through this airport for some time preferring to fly from elsewhere, I was absolutely appalled by my travel experience,both times through T1 which is bursting at the seams, cues for every eatery and bar no seating, but the British public will continue to book and cues will get longer as airlines continue to add new routes to an Airport which hasn't changed for 20yrs, I HAD to use this airport, but will think long and hard next time.

AndrewH52 18th Sep 2017 09:15


Originally Posted by Navpi (Post 9894208)
"They might as well close 23L and turn that into a carpark as it hardly fulfills much of it's potential as second runway anyway".

No idea on the Manchester experience but like MAG'S other major offering STN. I assume it's functional.

My main point however is runways.I would ask somebody in Air traffic if they agree with the statement above ?

Given the eyewatering figures for a new runway at Heathrow I would say the cost of the second runway at Manchester was a bargain.

Brighter people than me will know the figures but I doubt Manchester could achieve 28m on a single runway operation due to the close proximity of the terminal.

In terms of cost be in no doubt it was a bargain if compared to a similar structure of
8,000,000,000 million at Heathrow.

I agree Navpi, 8 trillion is a bit much...

MANFOD 18th Sep 2017 09:25

Sorry, tried to delete and made a mess of it. I see now that navpi also included the word million.

Apparently there is a long version of 8 billion which would include 12 'zeros' and a shorter version that would only be 9 'zeros'. That puzzles me, but hey ho.

As to the criticisms of MAN, I really do think it is down to personal experience. My own have been not too bad over the past 2 years but T1 worse than T2. Last arrival at T2 we were off the a/c, through Border Control and had collected cases in just under 15 minutes.

However, I really do feel MAG/MAN ought to be announcing some plans for T3 if there are any. If some airlines do move over in due course to the expanded T2, it will still leave Ryanair in T3 presumably (and flybe?), but that may be a few years off with conditions deteriorating further in the meantime.

MANFOD 18th Sep 2017 09:56


Originally Posted by MANFOD (Post 9895257)
Apparently there is a long version of 8 billion which would include 12 'zeros' and a shorter version that would only be 9 'zeros'. That puzzles me, but hey ho. .

One web site explains that the old UK definition of a billion was a million million (12 zeros), whereas the US version is a thousand million (9 zeros). Now I've no idea whether this trivia is correct, but it could prove useful in trying to determine just how much is being spent on major infrastructure projects in a certain part of the country. No?

Meanwhile, how close will MAN get to 28 million passengers in 2017 (just 6 zeros).

AndrewH52 18th Sep 2017 10:33

Following last week's departure woes, last night's return was, on the whole, much more smooth (apart from the flight itself being late, again).

However, we were allocated stand 12 which meant the long walk down Pier B to Border Control and baggage reclaim. It got me thinking about the process for arrivals once the redevelopment of T2 is complete? Will pax arriving at Pier B have to walk all the way to T2?

Barnstable 18th Sep 2017 11:13

Quick question - upon arrival in Manc T2, is it possible to get into the airside bars in the departure area, possibly by following the transfer signs, if you aren't doing a transfer? I have a short window to meet with someone for a pint next week and we would be more relaxed if she'd cleared security first

Navpi 18th Sep 2017 12:59

Trillion (short scale) (1,000,000,000,000; one million million; 1012; SI prefix: tera-), the current meaning in both American and British English
Trillion (long scale) (1,000,000,000,000,000,000; one million million

million; 1018; SI prefix: exa-), the former meaning in British English and current usage in many non-English-speaking countries

Usually a "million" is added at the end ?

AndrewH52 18th Sep 2017 13:41


Originally Posted by Navpi (Post 9895484)
Trillion (short scale) (1,000,000,000,000; one million million; 1012; SI prefix: tera-), the current meaning in both American and British English
Trillion (long scale) (1,000,000,000,000,000,000; one million million

million; 1018; SI prefix: exa-), the former meaning in British English and current usage in many non-English-speaking countries

Usually a "million" is added at the end ?

No, not if you don't want to confuse the situation...

lplsprog 18th Sep 2017 20:18

They could always use the correct word for 1,000million which is a Milliard!!

Mr A Tis 19th Sep 2017 08:17

Not so much a view, as actual experience. I guess if you're only using T3 five times a year at the same times, then you probably haven't got the true nature of this "facility"

gojmc 20th Sep 2017 11:31

With easyjet now having released its early summer schedule has anyone done the analysis of how many based aircraft will be required?

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 14:07

It looks like 12 based still, but will try and have a look later.

Routes/Frequencies pe:

ALC: 9
AMS: 21
AYT: 2
ATH: 4
BSL: 7
BFS: 16
SXF: 13
BIO: 6
CPH: 11
CFU: 5
BIA: 1
HER: 4
PFO: 7
DLM: 5
DBV: 2
GVA: 14
GIB: 3
GRX: 2
HAM: 6 (back to normal after capacity slug out with RYR/EW)
EFL: 2
KRK: 3
FNC: 2
PMI: 7
AGP: 7
MLA: 7
RAK: 2
MRS: 2
MXP: 7
MUC: 5
JMK: 2
CDG: 9
PSA: 3
OPO: 3
PRG: 6
PVK: 2
KEF: 2
JTR: 3
OLB: 3
CTA: 4
SOF: 3
SPU: 3
TLV: 2
TFS: 5
SKG: 3
TIV: 2
VCE: 3
VIE: 3

Not loaded:

AGA (2)
LPA (2) (winter only)
LYS (1) (winter only)
TRN (1) (winter only)

MANFOD 20th Sep 2017 14:46

Thanks for that. Those weekly frequencies add up to 243 flights if my maths is correct. Not sure how that compares with April-June 2017.

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 18:17

Interesting to note that EGCC has just won a TTG award for the 'Best U.K. Airport'......Especially considering some of the recent comments on 'Manchester 1'.

Good to have a new discussion forum though.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 18:19

Just checked Easyjet and it requires 12 based every morning. Not sure about afternoons as its always more difficult to work out.

roverman 20th Sep 2017 18:33


Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 9898267)
Interesting to note that EGCC has just won a TTG award for the 'Best U.K. Airport'......Especially considering some of the recent comments on 'Manchester 1'.

Good to have a new discussion forum though.


The vastly contrasting accounts and opinions of the MAN experience (and other airports) shows how much it can be down to individual user travel patterns - when and where you go to and through can have a marked influence on your experience of the service and facilities.

The myriad of travel industry journal awards in the UK rather undermines the value of any of them. No doubt the booze up in tuxedo and party dress makes it worthwhile for those involved.

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 18:48

It's like 'the music business', roverman........Too many meaningless award ceremonies, and a lack of quality in 'The marketplace'.......Wherever that is.

Betablockeruk 20th Sep 2017 21:02

Ever heard the phrase 'vanity award'?

http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wi...usiness_awards

I'm not saying this is one but I doubt any of the voters have endured non business class, no lounge and the massive border control queue to get back into Blighty (not sure how they can dodge the latter) but MAN is not a great customer experience.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 21:03

Royal Air Maroc increasing Casablanca-Manchester to 4 weekly with a new Friday flight starting 30th March.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 21:15

This isn't a 'MAN apologist' view, but one in general, as most UK airports suffer 'long' border queues, even the mighty Heathrow.

I often see sensationalist headlines and quotes of 'many stuck in border queue' and so on.

'Ooh Barbara, there must be 150 in this queue, it's totally not on'.

Yes Geoff. Of course there is 150 in front of you, you were last ones off a plane that holds 189 people, not to mention the flight from Munich parked up alongside you that also holds about 150 people, so what the hell are you expecting exactly? Where is it people think that your fellow passengers go once you exit the aircraft! You all have to go through the same blooming door!

It's just a British thing, we love to moan about Weather, the darkness level of a cuppa and how long the queue is. A queue could be 1 person deep and the person still find it unacceptable. What is this obsession with a queue, I just don't get it!

Came through MAN T1 last night, border took 8 minutes and people still moaning 'this is bloody ridiculous'. What were they planning to do with that 8 minutes they 'lost'?

Just baffles me, it really does!

Mr A Tis 20th Sep 2017 21:21

LAX_LHR Try 15 minutes for a marshaller + 10 minutes for an airbridge + 50 minutes for bags & you are the only arrival.

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 21:46

A queue results from a system's failure to cope with the demand on offer.,,,,,,Whether it be a supermarket checkout, a motorway, or one of the multitude of scenarios at EGCC, or any other airport.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 21:51

I wouldn't know as its never really happened to me (travel too many times to mention but longest wait for bags at MAN has been about 45 minutes on very few occasions. Unless I'm just 'lucky' nearly every single time I fly, in which case I must really buy a lotto ticket!)

Honestly hand on heart never had to wait for a marsheller, jetbridge or steps have always been there within 5 minutes. Not saying iyour events dont happen as I'm certain they do from time to time, but, apart from the long depressing walk down B pier at T1 or the naff domestic arrivals corridor in T3, that's about as bad as it gets for me.

Last night I was one of 4(?) arrivals (may have been a 5th but didn't read the boards properly) and it took me no more than 35 minutes from arriving on stand to getting outside arrivals. 5 or so minutes of that was getting the steps attached, 7 or so minutes walking down B pier, 8 minutes at Border, 10 minutes for bags and then the last few minutes walking out of baggage.

Like I say, that may make me a MAN apologist, but I can only report my own personal experiences. I know the actual terminal space is a depressing, crampt and no longer fit for modern day passengers, but as we know MAN are working on that, as we know how long it takes for infrastructure projects to get moving in the UK (look at LHR T5, the late 1980's was when that was first put for discussion to the public!).

MAN is far from perfect, I know, you know and we all know. But, it does the job and with growing passenger numbers, it's clearly doing something right, as if this forum was indicative of the issues, passenger numbers would be falling with the amout of people opting to fly from elsewhere.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 21:55


Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 9898501)
A queue results from a system's failure to cope with the demand on offer.,,,,,,Whether it be a supermarket checkout, a motorway, or one of the multitude of scenarios at EGCC, or any other airport.

But how do you deal with that issue? You say it's a failure, but, how would you process say, the 615 passengers coming off the Emirates A380 in the evening, without a queue forming? Basing that the 615 could all be couples as an example, that's 306-ish 'travelling parties'. Do you have 306 border desks, all manned and ready to receive, as that's the only way to stop a queue forming and thus, 'a failiure'?

So, it's inevitable that a queue will form. and completely inconceivable that you can prevent a queue forming in such a scenario. Even if you staggered and held people back, all you are doing is pushing the queue to somewhere else....

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 22:07

If an A388 arrival is expected, then every possible resource should be mustered to process the passenger load as quickly as can be achieved. ACDM should provide the advance warning that an influx of inbound bods is imminent. The simultaneous arrival of large numbers of pax is not a new phenomenon.......It was identified as an issue when the 747-100s first started operating about 45 years ago.

mickyman 20th Sep 2017 22:09

People are like sheep,one has a minor issue with a delay (because obviously THEY are in a hurry and THEY are so important) and everyone jumps on it.People think they can moan about everything instead of just chilling and waiting their turn.The internet is the perfect vessel for these moaners - one of its faults is that it lets anybody 'start a fight' so to speak.
From my own experience of Manchester I can say I have never had much of a delay at any stage of progressing through it at all times of the day and night - indeed the only delay I have had recently was at Stansted getting through control - but I made my flight so everything was okay.In fact the only reason TOO moan is if you miss your flight - everything else is just piffle by people who spend their whole life moaning and can never be satisfied.

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 22:56

Around the late 1980s, a 'ground-breaking' system was installed at EGCC called 'FMCS'. This provided information about the progress of individual flights to and from the airport, and this data was routinely available to all interested parties. I believe passenger loadings were included in the data that was routinely transmitted.
Yet, a quarter of a century later, EGCC is still 'behind the drag curve' in respect of handling a/c and pax.

How can this be?

mickyman 20th Sep 2017 23:17

ZOOKER

...because 'PROGRESS' isnt a lot of the time in this day and age - the thought that everything gets better and we live in a progressive age is to be scientific about it - BOLLOX !

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 02:37


Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 9898523)
If an A388 arrival is expected, then every possible resource should be mustered to process the passenger load as quickly as can be achieved. ACDM should provide the advance warning that an influx of inbound bods is imminent. The simultaneous arrival of large numbers of pax is not a new phenomenon.......It was identified as an issue when the 747-100s first started operating about 45 years ago.

But that's the crux isn't it. You originally stated that a queue is formed by a failiure to cope with demand.

So, let's take that A380 scenario again, with 615 pax, and assuming all pax travelling in 2's so 306-308-ish travelling parties. They all disembark at the 'same time' (obviously via regular 2 door flow) and border force have been informed, so they open all 12 desks (let's just ignore the e-gates for now as we know some people can't use them for various reasons and I think it's 12 desks, but can't remember). Space is limited at any airport, doesn't matter if that Singapore Changi or Doncaster airport.

That means there is still going to be a queue of 25.5 people at each desk, which will still give the image of a large queue. Then what if the LH2500 arrives, the LH947, the LS901 etc etc.

So, the question then goes back to 'what do people expect'. You have informed of the volume, you have opened every desk, you are doing the job as quickly as you can but you still have a large queue. It's not a failiure, it's just volume and thus people need to learn to be a little more patient.

We all have to be somewhere, we all want the same thing so sometimes we just have to realise that these things take time.

DP. 21st Sep 2017 10:58

The MAN experience isn't as bad as some would make out, but there are plenty of issues that can't simply be put down to 'the airport experience'.

A colleague arrived on an evening domestic flight last weekend. Between a lack of ground staff to get them off the aircraft, problems actually getting them into the terminal, and the long wait for taxis with their "official taxi partner", it took him almost two hours to reach the city centre. That is not acceptable.

ZOOKER 21st Sep 2017 16:33

LAX,
If the scenario you describe happens, then all 12 lanes should be open, tactically there is no excuse for it not to happen.

Strategically, maybe more lanes should have been provided? There are 3 double-decker buses arrive each day, and they didn't start arriving un-announced.

Much of the Manchester forum on PPRuNe is about new services, or increasing frequencies of the services already established. What is the point of that if the airport is struggling to cope with the situation existing at present?

A colleague of mine recently flew LSGG-EGCC, arriving mid-afternoon. It took 30 minutes longer from arriving on stand at T1 to his home in Bramhall, than it did to fly from Switzerland to Stand 6.

The airport, as Mr A Tis observes, sadly, seems to be constantly playing 'catch-up'. Car-parking is now a major issue, and will only get worse as 'Airport City' is developed. Public transport to anywhere south and east of the airport site is virtually non-existant. Due to a lack of foresight/investment 20 years ago, it has in 05R/23L, one of the most inefficient runways in The U.K.

The airports own FB page strongly advises people to turn up 3 hours before departure time, that doesn't include travel time required to get to EGCC. I can foresee more pax opting to go via Yeadon or John Lennon for certain services. Had it not had its misfortunes over the last few years, even Blackpool would have been a viable alternative, being only an hour by road from Manchester city-centre.

The 'Halcyon Days' of 'MIA - Serving the business-end of Britain', and Manchester Airport, 'Gateway Airport', (with the 'Terry's Chocolate Orange' logo), seem to be, (like the aircraft that carried that name), long gone.

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 16:46

Well, Manchester growing at a faster rate both percentage and volume rate than LPL and LBA so clearly MAN doing something right.

And an hour by road from Manchester city centre to BLK? On a very good day maybe! Can take an hour to get out of Manchester itself some days!

You also need to remember that out of 27.4 million passengers, we seem to be taking about 200 or so 'disgruntled' tweets and forum posters as gospel that the MAN experience is sh*t. That's much less than 1% of the total, about a B737-800 worth of passengers.

What about the other 27.3999 passengers that didn't complain? What brings them back?

Skipness One Echo 21st Sep 2017 18:32

Sorry but who cares if MAN is growing faster than LBA or LPL? That's bragging rights.
How about has existing capacity been well planned? Is there sufficient contingency? How much better is the customer experience?

Bottom line is that senior decision makers have been able to get away with short term planning decisions on a tactical basis and that only gets you so far. The fact that the second runway is decidedly sub optimal hasn't helped. If they'd rebuilt the terminals rather than focussing on a parallel runway then I believe they'd be in a better place. The layout remains a counter intuitive nightmare, even today. Gatwick still just about manages to get by on one runway and have some of the best terminal facilities in the UK as they've spent a fortune in recent years. MAN is now going to rebuild the terminals, so pain today, gain tomorrow, but they're way behind the curve here. If you think only 200 people were less than impressed you're fooling yourself. One can be a supporter of MAN but be open and honest without defending every single aspect of the operation.

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 18:48

1500 passengers in the immigration queue. You know as well as I do you can count on one hand the amount of times that has happened!

Yes, border queues can get long, just as they do at LHR, LGW, BHX, USA airports, even DSA and LPL have experienced long queues at one time or other. Show me one single airport in the UK handling over 1mil pax that hasn't experienced a border queue at various times and then I will aknowledge MAN has a particular problem.

Look, as we have gone over it time and again, is MAN perfect? No. I too could list many 'trivial' problems with the site, it's clearly old, it's aesthetically crap and in dire need of the renovations it's getting.
But is MAN unique in having issues? No, not by a long shot. Has the renovation started too late, yes, one could easily argue they are late, but the point is, things are now being addressed.

MAN is trying to sort out some remedial problems too.

-They have created more space in T3 security by moving the police interview/watch rooms and the managers podium. I believe they are also making lane 2 into the new dedicated fast track line, but that is a bit slower coming as I also believe they have to add a new biometric gate to access the extra lane. This new dedicated fast track lane will also free up lane 5 to be more available to passengers.

-T3 itself is obviously very space constrained. They are adding more walkways to reach the further stands, they have added a new lounge to try and appease the higher end passenger and added a new fast food option, which fits in with some of the Ryanair crowds. There's not a huge amount more they can do in T3 so I suppose any more work has to wait until T3 gets its turn for a full refurb. I suppose the only other thing they could do is expand the floor with the lounges to create more of a food court and then leave downstairs for seating (or vice versa), but, that's just my suggestion and not an indication of what will happen.

-I don't suppose T1 could have much done to it given in the next few years some elements will start to be knocked down.

I have also heard more consultations are taking place with Border control about staffing, but an issue in both T1/T3 is not so much staffing, but space to expand so it's going to be a work in progress and therefore a like it or lump it situation for now, you can't just click your fingers and magic up more space, it needs to be planned and agreed.

Ribble56 21st Sep 2017 19:07

200 disgruntled out of 27million, get real will ye!

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 19:17

I said 200 disgruntled social media and forum members. Obviously there will be more, but I'd still be surprised if that number exceeds 2-3% of the overall total.

Ribble56 21st Sep 2017 19:46

810,000 OR 4,378 737-800s, blimey that many 3%

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 21:36

Yes exactly, even the tiny number of 3% complaining seems extortionately high, doesn't it, which is unlikely 810,000 people complained.

Let's just say even if 20,000 'complained'. In this context, I mean, wrote in, commented on a social media site, took part in a survey and scored it badly, EI, a written complaint of some sort. Even that is less that 0.1% of the total, which means 99.9% of those passengers using MAN didn't feel disgruntled enough to complain in any 'formal/written' manner. Yes people may 'talk' but how many in reality would carry out a vow 'never use it again' etc.

Doesn't this prove the point that the majority of people are either happy or at worst, 'so/so' about MAN, thus showing what people write in here is clearly a minority view? Clearly shows an exaggerated problem to me, in that we all know MAN isn't great but thus proving MAN obviously isn't as bad as being portrayed by some!

ZOOKER 21st Sep 2017 22:41

But how many of the 'disgruntled masses' didn't bother to make their views known on the various internet portals?

Dobbo_Dobbo 21st Sep 2017 23:06

MAN is obviously not perfect, in T1/3 (i.e. where most passengers are processed) the experience is poor.

The TP is late. Easy with hindsight, but it should have been performed several years previously. However, we are where we are and MAN is well placed to take advantage of new technology and distinguish its self from other UK regional airports. Whether the TP achieves this remains to be seen.

The reality of a modern day airport's business model is that most money is made by passengers parking their car, buying food and drink and shopping. I'd expect the TP to reflect that (whilst conforming to a very high standard of airport functionality) and if it achieves this it will do okay.

The second runway was obviously a good idea. It's a shame it's not a true independent runway, but it looks like good value.


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