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Doncaster Sheffield-3

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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 9th Feb 2024, 09:51
  #1401 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 22/04
£138M is not a lot of money and the first question is what could be achieved with it.

LBA and EMA do exist - but EMA actually doesn't do that well as a passenger airport as it is and is reliant on cargo for viability. LBA is no the best operationally but it is local catchment and log term airport airline bases which matter. LTN is arguably similar. No one suggests it should be closed.

Objectively, the DSA experiment failed I'm afraid - let it go. Don't let it raise people's hope as a political football.
Think EMA does alright given its own proximity to BHX and LTN to the South. Even so, there are investment programs ongoing at EMA (£120m) and LBA (£100m) funded entirely by their private sector owners to increase capacity and improve the passenger experience. LBA are to build new stands starting next winter which will eventually see 10 extra stands, which is a 30% increase. They are clearly gunning for more based airlines.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 09:54
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EMA just about survives and it relatively easy to get to from Nottingham, Derby and Leicester and it's not too hard from Birmingham and Stoke. DSA is really Sheffield & Doncaster

Look how hard it is a Cardiff
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 10:31
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
EMA just about survives and it relatively easy to get to from Nottingham, Derby and Leicester and it's not too hard from Birmingham and Stoke. DSA is really Sheffield & Doncaster

Look how hard it is a Cardiff
Referring back to the Cardiff discussion the Doncaster / Sheffield region suffers from many of the same socio-economic issues as does South Wales in terms of affluence. Solve those and, as with Cardiff the case for a thriving passenger driven airport improves.

Its not the fault of the population but of lack of investment over decades. A familiar UK problem.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 15:00
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just look at Aberdeen since the oil price started falling 10 years ago..................
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 14:58
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Outline budget approved. Now on to next stage and full budget..
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 15:03
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So when does the business class outlining how V2 is going to attract more traffic than V1 get produced?
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 15:58
  #1407 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
So when does the business class outlining how V2 is going to attract more traffic than V1 get produced?
When they’ve agreed a lease with Peel and chosen a preferred operator. Understand they can’t release a full business case until they know what the business will be, which would make sense.

None of this Gainshare stuff is new, they’ve been talking about it for months. This was just a formality to show they’re doing something.

Interesting comments from York Aviation.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:17
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Interesting comments from York Aviation.
What are they?
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:21
  #1409 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
What are they?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...e-68272394.amp

Louise Congdon, an expert on airport economics at the York Aviation consultancy, warned that while re-opening Doncaster-Sheffield Airport might create good employment opportunities, Doncaster Council should "not expect any money back".

"The market is focusing on bigger airports where airlines can make more money," she said.

"To get airlines to use marginal airports like Doncaster, you have to pay them large sums to get them to operate.

"In those circumstances, it's unlikely a smaller airport like Doncaster would be able to cover its operating costs."

Course she’s accused of being in Peels pockets, all part of the ‘peel just wanted the land’ narrative.

Who knows, perhaps the winning bidder, whoever it is, a revolutionary solution.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:26
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She's not the only one, though

The project could be funded by Doncaster’s £138m share of South Yorkshire’s devolution funding. The cash is due to be released in 26 annual instalments of around £5.3m.

The combined authority did note that costs are likely to exceed these annual allocations, so the council may have to borrow in the short term, and said the project involves ‘significant financial risk’.
https://www.localgov.co.uk/Major-ste...eopening/58848
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:31
  #1411 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
I genuinely wish them luck, if the people they appoint to run it can make things happen where Peel didn’t, or if there’s been some interest from more airlines than TUI and the ad/hoc cargo operators that used it before since it closed then it might work, but if they’re going out to offer free money to some operator for short term financial gain then they’ll be in a worse position for it.

Peel will want to build houses on it eventually. They were quick to voice caution when TVCA purchased Teesside, the market has changed from what it was 20 years ago that’s for sure.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:39
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I agree, I'm all for airports but can't see where they are going to get the business from to make it a successful airport. There seems to be talk of attracting aviation related businesses "the sustainable aviation hub", but if they want a business park with a runway in the middle there are different ways of going about it.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:49
  #1413 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
I agree, I'm all for airports but can't see where they are going to get the business from to make it a successful airport. There seems to be talk of attracting aviation related businesses "the sustainable aviation hub", but if they want a business park with a runway in the middle there are different ways of going about it.
Well, the South Yorks mayor keeps talking about Boeing, but neglects to mention the fact that Boeing have an R&D facility on top of what was the runway at Sheffield City airport. They clearly weren’t that bothered about having an airport attached when they went there.

Do wonder whether there has been some influence over the Gateway East site that Peel are involved in, which may have given the council a bit of bargaining power. Not beyond the realms of possibility that an operator of high calibre could rejouvinate the airport leading to Peel re-investing in the DSA company. Optimistic scenario maybe, but not impossible. Still struggle to see how it will pan out like that, what with a large investment package going in to LBA which will see stand capacity massively increased.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:58
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Yes, maybe there is somebody unexpected waiting in the wings. Remember the UPS DC-8's turning up at EMA and thinking "what's that all about?"
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 16:59
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Originally Posted by pug
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...e-68272394.amp




Course she’s accused of being in Peels pockets, all part of the ‘peel just wanted the land’ narrative.

Who knows, perhaps the winning bidder, whoever it is, a revolutionary solution.
It is economies of density. The marginal cost of an additional passenger at the larger airports is lower and airlines can negotiate a better deal and have a bigger market to sell into. There is no reason, unless all other markets are saturated or a network airline is looking for network growth, for an airline to go to a small airport unless they are offered a similar deal. The only way a small airport can offer that cheaper deal is if some other party pays a subsidy.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 17:08
  #1416 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by runway30
It is economies of density. The marginal cost of an additional passenger at the larger airports is lower and airlines can negotiate a better deal and have a bigger market to sell into. There is no reason, unless all other markets are saturated or a network airline is looking for network growth, for an airline to go to a small airport unless they are offered a similar deal. The only way a small airport can offer that cheaper deal is if some other party pays a subsidy.
That was the Peel MO. Cheap and cheerful as long as you put x number of passengers through our terminal so we can generate revenue through ancillaries. Won them a court case against Bmibaby which provided a rare public example of the commercial terms on offer, got FlyBe in at a cost to themselves rumoured to be £1million per year. Only really worked at LPL because they have a bigger population to draw from. It’s why I can’t understand where the high charges rumours come from but it seems to be accepted that this was the case. Probably only half a story, airlines wanting the freebies but not putting the volume through would be my guess.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 17:36
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Originally Posted by pug
That was the Peel MO. Cheap and cheerful as long as you put x number of passengers through our terminal so we can generate revenue through ancillaries. Won them a court case against Bmibaby which provided a rare public example of the commercial terms on offer, got FlyBe in at a cost to themselves rumoured to be £1million per year. Only really worked at LPL because they have a bigger population to draw from. It’s why I can’t understand where the high charges rumours come from but it seems to be accepted that this was the case. Probably only half a story, airlines wanting the freebies but not putting the volume through would be my guess.
The problem, if you are a public body or wealthy owner of the airport paying the subsidy, is picking to right airline. If the airline tries to renege on the deal or goes out of business, the passengers leave with them. This is not always understood by those providing the subsidy.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 18:01
  #1418 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by runway30
The problem, if you are a public body or wealthy owner of the airport paying the subsidy, is picking to right airline. If the airline tries to renege on the deal or goes out of business, the passengers leave with them. This is not always understood by those providing the subsidy.
Thats assuming they have a choice. An airport in the North East was fairly recently said to be trying to buy in an airline who ended up going elsewhere and paying what everyone else does. Doesn’t all come down to cost, have to have the market to start with or its unsustainable for everyone concerned.
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 18:47
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In its favour..space and a great long runway!
If Teesside can work with massive investment..who is to say DSA can’t?
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Old 13th Feb 2024, 18:58
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Originally Posted by highwideandugly
In its favour..space and a great long runway!
If Teesside can work with massive investment..who is to say DSA can’t?
If the mayor's money supply to MME suddenly stopped... I'm wondering what might happen long term.
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