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Old 28th Jul 2023, 08:25
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IAG has converted 6 Boeing 787-10 options into firm orders for British Airways.

These will be delivered between 2025 & 2026 to restore pre-pandemic long haul capacity.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 03:08
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Oddly I know some well off folk who really object to shelling out for PE etc on short haul - anything under 4 hours they're happy to suffer in the back if the upgrade has to come out of their pocket .
With almost all BA short and medium haul now operated by A320-series/Neo aircraft, I’ve actually found the exit rows as being de facto PE and probably ends up being better than the business class product aside from not getting a meal. Because of the MCD, you probably get less legroom in business for the most part.

Useful on some of the longer 4-5 hour runs… double the price just for an extra airline meal!

Historically they used to operate the odd 747, 757, 767 on these routes. I guess maybe on the rare occasion you’d get the 787 now?
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 07:25
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Originally Posted by Dannyboy39
With almost all BA short and medium haul now operated by A320-series/Neo aircraft, I’ve actually found the exit rows as being de facto PE and probably ends up being better than the business class product aside from not getting a meal. Because of the MCD, you probably get less legroom in business for the most part.

Useful on some of the longer 4-5 hour runs… double the price just for an extra airline meal!

Historically they used to operate the odd 747, 757, 767 on these routes. I guess maybe on the rare occasion you’d get the 787 now?
Tel-Aviv is currently operated with a 789 and 350-1000 combination
Amman/Cairo/Larnaca/Paphos with 321NEO
Paphos from Gatwick with a Euroflyer 320 (sometimes a leased in one)

Whilst Sharm will be operated with a 77E over the winter

Fact is BA mid haul network has declined considerably in the years since BMED and their presence in Sub Saharan Africa is pathetic by comparison to Star and Team competitors.



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Old 29th Jul 2023, 09:04
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I think you will find that Sharm el Sheikh will be operated by BA Euroflyer A320/A321not a BA 777. They made that mistake last time.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 09:27
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Some may think the mid haul offering in terms of routes is ‘pathetic’ but it is profitable. BMED and BMA both failed owing to losses. Likewise most European airlines operate similar aircraft on these routes.
Others go on about the great inflight experience of Turkish airlines but they are chasing the one stop connections to Asia and East in competition with Emirates and others. BA and other European airlines are mainly point to point business and leisure.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 10:26
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Originally Posted by vectisman
BA and other European airlines are mainly point to point business and leisure.
That's true for easyJet but BA is a long haul network carrier with huge feed over a dominant hub. Anyone connecting off a long haul Club Suite flying onwards on "Club Europe" for 6 hours in a NEO is getting hosed. The same goes for Air France, Lufthansa etc. We've reverted to the bad old days of a "that'll do" cartel.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 11:57
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BA have been completely squelched by a range of carriers to Africa - not just the ME3, it's Turkish and Ethiopian as well. The nationalities of the passengers in the Ethiopian 737Max accident shows how things have gone - hardly any Ethiopians on board; fairly full flight, just 9 of the pax were Ethiopians.

For points previously served by BA just a few times a week, the prospect of daily operation, albeit by connections, is inviting. Fares are generally significantly less, and it's a pretty price-sensitive market, not just for personal but also business travel - many welfare agencies, charities, etc.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 16:24
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Originally Posted by WHBM
BA have been completely squelched by a range of carriers to Africa - not just the ME3, it's Turkish and Ethiopian as well. The nationalities of the passengers in the Ethiopian 737Max accident shows how things have gone - hardly any Ethiopians on board; fairly full flight, just 9 of the pax were Ethiopians.

For points previously served by BA just a few times a week, the prospect of daily operation, albeit by connections, is inviting. Fares are generally significantly less, and it's a pretty price-sensitive market, not just for personal but also business travel - many welfare agencies, charities, etc.
Sort of true however wasn’t much of the West African cull predicated on the Ebola outbreaks rather than financial consideration and not restored since ?
Isn’t the region supposed to be served via the RAM (not that they seem to work particularly closely yet) and Iberia codeshares these days.

Not expecting BA to serve N’Djamena, however Abidjan, Freetown , Monrovia and Dakar should still perform well enough .
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 16:27
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
That's true for easyJet but BA is a long haul network carrier with huge feed over a dominant hub. Anyone connecting off a long haul Club Suite flying onwards on "Club Europe" for 6 hours in a NEO is getting hosed. The same goes for Air France, Lufthansa etc. We've reverted to the bad old days of a "that'll do" cartel.
Primarily the reason for restoration of widebody and business product to Tel Aviv. Rather less so Amman and Cairo.

Air France are using a A359 to Tel Aviv and Cairo and maintain Beirut with either a 789 or 359 depending on day of operation

Only Lufthansa continues to use the 321 Neo into Tel Aviv albeit multiple daily for both hubs

Last edited by Rutan16; 29th Jul 2023 at 16:46.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 16:33
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Originally Posted by vectisman
Some may think the mid haul offering in terms of routes is ‘pathetic’ but it is profitable. BMED and BMA both failed owing to losses. Likewise most European airlines operate similar aircraft on these routes.
Others go on about the great inflight experience of Turkish airlines but they are chasing the one stop connections to Asia and East in competition with Emirates and others. BA and other European airlines are mainly point to point business and leisure.
It is pathetic through .

BMI failed not because of mid haul but rather carrying far too many passengers for others at a penny in the pound and sure were also victims of the flexible fares expansion and poor planning particularly with their inherited Brazilian fleet and use three 330s they could get right .

And saying it’s Profitable is unknown without direct knowledge of planning . We can I suppose and make an assumption Tel Aviv is a profit centre based on range of onward connections westwards but can’t categorically state it to be so .

Cairo and Amman may be contributing to revenue less so profit .


Last edited by Rutan16; 29th Jul 2023 at 18:27.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 17:17
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Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 17:35
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Originally Posted by Mayfield62
Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.
You need to tell the 15+ rows of CE passengers who fall for it eveyday… a huge number of which are not (contrary to urban myth) full of Avios redemptions. BA will be in no hurry to change that moneyspinner.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 18:13
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Originally Posted by Mayfield62
Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.
Not happening in Europe where flexibly is the key , as stated blocked seats allow BA and every other ( caveat Air Serbia) to market and deploy same frame on a domestic thirty minute rotation a summer hop to Santorini or that flight to Cairo each with very differing profiles

US market profiles are vastly different via their mega hubs and contracts that demand a so called domestic First class product of certain transcontinental routes.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 18:20
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Originally Posted by CabinCrewe
You need to tell the 15+ rows of CE passengers who fall for it eveyday… a huge number of which are not (contrary to urban myth) full of Avios redemptions. BA will be in no hurry to change that moneyspinner.
Who suggests Europe upfront is full of redemptions . It’s full of feed to the long haul and certain key business centres from London ( both can attain high levels of revenue)
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 20:49
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Originally Posted by Mayfield62
Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.
It’s comparable or better than almost every other European short haul business class. And while BA’s seat may be smaller on a lot of routes the offering is far better than many of the US carriers who don’t allow lounge access and serve a snack basket or less on shorter routes. You win some you lose some.
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Old 29th Jul 2023, 21:44
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Originally Posted by BA318
It’s comparable or better than almost every other European short haul business class. And while BA’s seat may be smaller on a lot of routes the offering is far better than many of the US carriers who don’t allow lounge access and serve a snack basket or less on shorter routes. You win some you lose some.
They're all c***. All of 'em The Business Class hard product across (most) legacy European A320 fleets (and KLM's B737s) is the bare minimum they can get away with and they literally do not compete on product because they're all inferior to the wider global market. It's a cosy wee cartel where no one upsets the applecart of a high revenue low cost business offering by actually offering a higher cost quality product. What saves them all is the power of their loyalty programmes. BA would be nowhere without the status chasers of the Executive Club. And there's a massive misnomer in 2023 let's be honest.
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Old 30th Jul 2023, 08:05
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
They're all c***. All of 'em The Business Class hard product across (most) legacy European A320 fleets (and KLM's B737s) is the bare minimum they can get away with and they literally do not compete on product because they're all inferior to the wider global market. It's a cosy wee cartel where no one upsets the applecart of a high revenue low cost business offering by actually offering a higher cost quality product. What saves them all is the power of their loyalty programmes. BA would be nowhere without the status chasers of the Executive Club. And there's a massive misnomer in 2023 let's be honest.
Spot on Skip those loyalty (bribe) programmes are specifically designed to lock in and gain upfront CASH, maintain that at a high(er) margin and actually deliver relatively cheap “awards” down the line . They also include an elemental risk assessment that many many many hundreds of thousand perhaps millions of points are unlikely to ever be redeemed.

Further add hidden expiry criteria and constant reviews of “offers” and redemption rates and it’s simply a license to print money for these companies at your expense (They got your money upfront at x2 x5 and x10 base price and its in their bank making them and the partners money but not yours)

That said people “value” the concept and at a physiological level potential for future “Free Stuff yes please “ sells !

For the average person that travels to a beech for 14 days or even that millennial that weekends in Ibiza the number of points gained on a typical credit card in a year might just pay for a basket of Christmas goodies, however its alluring to think you could someday get that free trip and bath tube seat , on tap champers and a Maldives hut on a coral reef someday.

Scam is a loaded word through they aren’t far from it !


Last edited by Rutan16; 30th Jul 2023 at 11:18.
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Old 30th Jul 2023, 12:58
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is there anything different between Avios and any other loyalty maketing scheme ?
Large chunks of marketing theory are all about getting customers to spend a lot more money for a product which costs only slightly more to produce.
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Old 30th Jul 2023, 17:09
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
is there anything different between Avios and any other loyalty maketing scheme ?
Large chunks of marketing theory are all about getting customers to spend a lot more money for a product which costs only slightly more to produce.
Correct whatever the bribe to concept is exactly that again generating CASH now for promises later .
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Old 2nd Aug 2023, 09:55
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New route Heathrow-Belgrade
https://www.exyuaviation.com/2023/08...-belgrade.html
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