Cardiff-3

[vectisman]

What all of you ranting above seem to forget is that airlines will maintain services from an airport if it is financially viable to do so. Clearly airlines have decided that there is more money to be made elsewhere. Changing the management and stamping your feet will not change this simple truth.
In the summer leisure travel makes money for some operators less so in the winter. Domestic flying from most smaller airports is at best marginally profitable and at Cardiff less so.
You can all have wish lists as long as your arms and look for scapegoats, but that will not change the economic reality.

[SWBKCB]

This is the key. Public ownership simply doesn't work.

Except to rescue the private sector when it fails

Agree an increase of x2 daily M-F for EDI and Loganair… what about GLA ? NCL ? JER ?

Flybe Mk. 2?

[Sean North]

Originally Posted by vectisman

What all of you ranting above seem to forget is that airlines will maintain services from an airport if it is financially viable to do so. Clearly airlines have decided that there is more money to be made elsewhere. Changing the management and stamping your feet will not change this simple truth.
In the summer leisure travel makes money for some operators less so in the winter. Domestic flying from most smaller airports is at best marginally profitable and at Cardiff less so.
You can all have wish lists as long as your arms and look for scapegoats, but that will not change the economic reality.

But management do set the fees. Let's compare to Bristol:

Cardiff

Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £17.50 per passenger

Bristol

Fee over 3 tonnes = £16.90 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £16.35 per passenger

Then there are other fees, of which Bristol is cheaper. Bristol is cheaper to operate from.

Of course airlines maintain flights if it is financial viable. Airport charges are a part of that. Do you really support Cardiff Airport making itself uncompetitive? You are blind to the failings of management if you do not recognise overcharging compared to your biggest competitor is folly. Cardiff Airport should be undercharging.

[vectisman]

Originally Posted by Sean North

But management do set the fees. Let's compare to Bristol:

Cardiff

Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £17.50 per passenger

Bristol

Fee over 3 tonnes = £16.90 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £16.35 per passenger

Then there are other fees, of which Bristol is cheaper. Bristol is cheaper to operate from.

Of course airlines maintain flights if it is financial viable. Airport charges are a part of that. Do you really support Cardiff Airport making itself uncompetitive? You are blind to the failings of management if you do not recognise overcharging compared to your biggest competitor is folly. Cardiff Airport should be undercharging.

I think you also need to take into account economies of scale when looking at the pricing. Cardiff has to provide certain services and safety standards to be able to legally operate as an airport. These costs have to be spread over a smaller number of
operators and passengers compared to the much larger number of users at Bristol. Personally I have no feelings about Cardiff either way, I was just pointing out the economic reality of the situation.

[Sean North]

Originally Posted by vectisman

I think you also need to take into account economies of scale when looking at the pricing. Cardiff has to provide certain services and safety standards to be able to legally operate as an airport. These costs have to be spread over a smaller number of
operators and passengers compared to the much larger number of users at Bristol. Personally I have no feelings about Cardiff either way, I was just pointing out the economic reality of the situation.

The Welsh Govt is the owner. The airport has the ability to put off making a profit over the short-term. It certainly has the cash and capital to keep operating. The airport should make a loss on aircraft fees to incentivise passenger numbers, and aim to make the money back through passengers passing through the airport terminal and spending in shops (of which the airport could own the franchises of to make more money).

The Welsh Govt has written off debt equivalent to over 2m passengers worth. When you have them through your door, you get them spending. It's a loss leader. It's what Southend did.

[caaardiff]

Originally Posted by Sean North

But management do set the fees. Let's compare to Bristol:

Cardiff

Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £17.50 per passenger

Bristol

Fee over 3 tonnes = £16.90 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £16.35 per passenger

Then there are other fees, of which Bristol is cheaper. Bristol is cheaper to operate from.

Of course airlines maintain flights if it is financial viable. Airport charges are a part of that. Do you really support Cardiff Airport making itself uncompetitive? You are blind to the failings of management if you do not recognise overcharging compared to your biggest competitor is folly. Cardiff Airport should be undercharging.

Where did you find those charges? Because the charges I've found on each Airports website are different:

Cardiff
Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Parking fee = £240 (Free for first 2 hours)
Security charge - £2.85 per departing passenger
Passenger load charge = £17.30 per passenger

Bristol
"Runway fee" over 3 tonnes = £18.00 per tonne
Parking fee 0-30 tonne = £21.70 per aircraft + £1.50 per tonne
Airport Safety & Security Levy = £7.26 per departing passenger
Passenger load supplement = £17.50 per passenger

BRS also has an ATC fee - over 3 tonne = £6.10 per tonne

I can't find anything as an ATC fee on CWL's charges.

So based on that, CWL charges less for passenger load, considerably less for security per departing passenger, but based on the above CWL has higher landing fee and parking fee, despite having slightly different set ups.
Also lets not forget these are standard charges and don't reflect any commercial agreement with based or regular Airlines, which we're unlikely ever to see.

[Sean North]

Originally Posted by caaardiff

Where did you find those charges? Because the charges I've found on each Airports website are different:

Cardiff
Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Parking fee = £240 (Free for first 2 hours)
Security charge - £2.85 per departing passenger
Passenger load charge = £17.30 per passenger

Bristol
"Runway fee" over 3 tonnes = £18.00 per tonne
Parking fee 0-30 tonne = £21.70 per aircraft + £1.50 per tonne
Airport Safety & Security Levy = £7.26 per departing passenger
Passenger load supplement = £17.50 per passenger

BRS also has an ATC fee - over 3 tonne = £6.10 per tonne

I can't find anything as an ATC fee on CWL's charges.

So based on that, CWL charges less for passenger load, considerably less for security per departing passenger, but based on the above CWL has higher landing fee and parking fee, despite having slightly different set ups.
Also lets not forget these are standard charges and don't reflect any commercial agreement with based or regular Airlines, which we're unlikely ever to see.

My point is not so much the exact figures but rather what the figures show. That is Cardiff Airport is not clearly, beyond any doubt, cheaper as it should be. Refusing to waive the parking fee would motivate KLM to cut the flight. That's the best part of £100k a year in parking fees for Cardiff alone.

[SWBKCB]

Originally Posted by Sean North

My point is not so much the exact figures but rather what the figures show. That is Cardiff Airport is not clearly, beyond any doubt, cheaper as it should be. Refusing to waive the parking fee would motivate KLM to cut the flight. That's the best part of £100k a year in parking fees for Cardiff alone.

If KLM are paying the "walk up" rate - which would be surprising.

[cavokblues]

So what should the Welsh government be doing?

The airport was failing as a private enterprise, hence why they stepped in.

They could offer cheap rates to stimulate some activity, or do a Southend and pay an airline to operate routes for a summer, as they did with Flybe. But look where Southend are now, losing a lot more money then they ever were.

Equally, what happens when the incentives stop? Airlines like Ryanair are incredibly flexible so they'll just up and move to where they can get better yields.

I don't know what the answer is, tbh.

[caaardiff]

Originally Posted by Sean North

My point is not so much the exact figures but rather what the figures show. That is Cardiff Airport is not clearly, beyond any doubt, cheaper as it should be. Refusing to waive the parking fee would motivate KLM to cut the flight. That's the best part of £100k a year in parking fees for Cardiff alone.

The point you were trying to make wasn't a factual point though. CWL and BRS pricing structure is different in a number of ways, so unless you do a complete analysis of a certain aircraft type and passenger number, you wouldn't know if CWL is cheaper or not.

Also KLM have been flying from CWL for decades, you can't honestly suggest they are paying the standard rates. FR wouldn't be flying there is they were paying the standard rate. Wizz wouldn't have been coaxed under the standard rate. You cannot judge CWL's prices on the basis of standard rates.

[caaardiff]

Originally Posted by cavokblues

So what should the Welsh government be doing?

The airport was failing as a private enterprise, hence why they stepped in.

They could offer cheap rates to stimulate some activity, or do a Southend and pay an airline to operate routes for a summer, as they did with Flybe. But look where Southend are now, losing a lot more money then they ever were.

Equally, what happens when the incentives stop? Airlines like Ryanair are incredibly flexible so they'll just up and move to where they can get better yields.

I don't know what the answer is, tbh.

Flybe were effectively paid to operate the E95 routes, Vueling had a substantial marketing budget, there is talk, although not confirmed, that QR and Qatar had various subsidies and deals. Wizz would've had some form of benefit thrown at them and no doubt so have FR.
Vueling is the telling sign that since the 10 year deal ended they have gradually reduced. One would hope that CWL could throw some money at them and FR just to get people through the door and stimulate growth. In turn there'll be beneficial income from things such as parking and retail.

[davidjohnson6]

Throughout the world, when you have two adjacent regions each with their own airport, airlines will always base their aircraft in the region with larger population and higher incomes... and make the poor neighbours travel further. Airlines would be crazy to act otherwise.

Cardiff airport and its traffic reflects the local economy, much like Leeds airport. If you want to see a busy CWL... then you need a really buoyant and dynamic economy in south Wales. You might be able to persuade the odd airline (eg Qatar) to try you out... but in the long term, you need a robust local economy. Anything else is just trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. When you walk around places like Barry and see people struggling to make ends meet, it's not encouraging

Dublin airport used to be sleepy. In the last 30 years, the economy around Dublin has gained vast wealth and the airport is booming. Same with Cork. Yes, the airport is an important asset, just like good roads and a train station... but the way to revive CWL is by creating a strong economy first. Good education, strong skill base, etc...

[caaardiff]

Originally Posted by davidjohnson6

Throughout the world, when you have two adjacent regions each with their own airport, airlines will always base their aircraft in the wealthy region and make the poor neighbours travel further. Airlines would be crazy to act otherwise.

Cardiff airport and its traffic reflects the local economy, much like Leeds airport. If you want to see a busy CWL... then you need a really buoyant and dynamic economy in south Wales. when you walk around places like Barry and see people struggling to make ends meet, it's not encouraging

Dublin airport used to be sleepy. In the last 30 years, the economy around Dublin has gained vast wealth and the airport is booming. Yes, the airport is an important asset, just like good roads and a train station... but the way to fix CWL is by creating a strong economy first. Good education, strong skill base, etc...

Of course what you say is correct in theory, but why are well over 1m Welsh people using BRS, if not more than 1m? Even for routes operated from CWL. Quite simply, price. The Southwest region is more affluent than Wales, but there is definitely propensity to fly in Wales. It'll be interesting to see how the FR routes perform this summer. The timings are terrible but hopefully the prices will be right.

[davidjohnson6]

Before anybody takes offence, I write this with good intentions. Really, I do.

Debating propensity to travel within Wales and air fares is just tinkering at the edges. A sleepy CWL is merely a symptom. A lousy moribund economy in south Wales is the disease.

Cure the disease, instead of trying to cover the symptom with cosmetic make-up. The medicine is good education and high skills. Medicine takes a long time to act... but once it does, the cure is long-lasting.

[cymru]

Originally Posted by davidjohnson6

Before anybody takes offence, I write this with good intentions. Really, I do.

Debating propensity to travel within Wales and air fares is just tinkering at the edges. A sleepy CWL is merely a symptom. A lousy moribund economy in south Wales is the disease.

Cure the disease, instead of trying to cover the symptom with cosmetic make-up. The medicine is good education and high skills. Medicine takes a long time to act... but once it does, the cure is long-lasting.

Amen!

[GROUNDHOG]

I am an old man now, my commercial history with Cardiff goes back over 50 years.. I don't know the market today but davidjohnson6 and cymru are spot on. Nothing will change until the local economy changes.

[Sean North]

And who is to blame for a terrible South Wales economy? The Welsh Government

You have a completely incompetent government - who seem to be ideologically opposed to wealth creation to any extent - trying to operate an airport (admittedly at 'arm's length' whether we believe the claims or not) in an area their policies have repeatedly made poor. I concur with the above posters. EGFF's decline was inevitable.

[vectisman]

Originally Posted by Sean North

And who is to blame for a terrible South Wales economy? The Welsh Government

You have a completely incompetent government - who seem to be ideologically opposed to wealth creation to any extent - trying to operate an airport (admittedly at 'arm's length' whether we believe the claims or not) in an area their policies have repeatedly made poor. I concur with the above posters. EGFF's decline was inevitable.

Total disagree.

[Sean North]

Originally Posted by vectisman

Total disagree.

So who do you blame for the economy of Bristol and the surrounding areas growing and attracting businesses, and then the South Wales economy that does neither?

[GROUNDHOG]

One massive advantage Bristol has over Cardiff, those of us that live West of the Tamar might drive to BRS but could drive to LHR in the time it takes to get to CWL. That is a lot of potential sales.