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Old 10th Jan 2022, 09:21
  #1081 (permalink)  
 
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Of course we have all missed Air Lingus UK with 3 units
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 09:33
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Originally Posted by Navpi
The reference to "gold standard" was of course relative as a few snipers are I'm sure aware. The point remains there has been a tsunami of posters claiming limited facilities, no stands, no ramp space et al.

I am merely suggesting that a new pier which constrains space even more might be not be a priority at the moment given those constraints.

And yes as for the "spotting jibe", leave it out.
But we have a terminal that is or approaching life expired and which isnít the most practical plus another terminal which, whilst newer in part, isnít the practical for todayís traffic. So what gives? Donít redevelop the terminal facilities just so we can have a few freighters?

Iím no MAN apologist, the place can occasionally be a nightmare and MAN TP was instigated too late in the day in my opinion. However, I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill somewhat.

I stand by my spotter remark. If people these days take offence to the term, Ďspotterí, then Iím happy to use a different descriptor but I broadly stand by my comment.

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Old 10th Jan 2022, 15:35
  #1083 (permalink)  
 
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Of course we have all missed Air Lingus UK with 3 units
Good point. The Aer Lingus base is a very welcome development. Though curiously, cutbacks by Virgin and US carriers mean that they will barely eat into the Thomas Cook long-haul void. I think the other reason that Aer Lingus did not arise in discussion is because their aircraft do not park on the West Apron overnight.

I stand by my spotter remark. If people these days take offence to the term, ‘spotter’, then I’m happy to use a different descriptor but I broadly stand by my comment.
I tend to use either 'enthusiast' or 'avgeek' in this respect. The word 'spotter' risks coming across as a put-down on forums like this. But whatever label we use, we should not be dismissive. Many of the most successful professionals within the industry got through the door based on knowledge picked up in their formative spotting years. And in almost any team within the industry, they tend to be the ones with the most drive and enthusiasm to attract new business and deliver success. Someone who actually wants to be there and enjoys their work is likely to provide a better service than another who is there just because they need the money and any job will do. Enthusiasts are motivated.

As for the implication that 'spotters' would like to see Longtail, Nordwind and others at MAN, that is undoubtedly true. 100%. I'd photograph them if they turned up - I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But, as you know, we have spent much of this exchange discussing Jet2 and Ryanair aircraft turned away on diversion requests, and past instances of Ryanair expansion proposals not being accommodated. Because I want to see MAN maximise ALL business opportunities out there, and if that includes some aircraft with different paint jobs, that's great. But when passenger throughput is down by around 80% (yes, just think about that number!), and cargo throughput down by more than 50% from a level which was never even close to optimised anyway, then I do feel inclined to comment when management appears most interested in keeping the routes team furloughed to save wages, saying no to cargo operators, and issuing no-div notams week after week. I want to see convincing EVIDENCE that they're back on the front foot and chasing up all new business leads out there. I don't yet see that, hence this discussion. I for one would be very happy to see new operators at MAN, but no more so than by seeing increased ops by familiar based carriers. I want to see MAT's 29,510,599 pax and 113,248 Tonnes cargo regained and surpassed. That will require a long-term 'can do' team effort which appears to be conspicuously absent at MAN. It would be nice to see Mr Cornish commit to addressing this.

Perhaps blaming 'spotters' uses a convenient scapegoat to avoid facing up to the real issue. Maybe we need to question those who rush to defend a culture of negativity, shrug the shoulders, not my problem, muddling along is fine, I don't know or care, no-can-do, just say NO to everything, regardless of actual circumstance.
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 16:35
  #1084 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry if this has been asked and answered but why didn't T2 get a parallel satelitte building instead of the old school piers and cul de sacs?
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 16:44
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Ozzy.

Passenger numbers in November were back to over 50% of pre-Covid levels and movements over 60%. Use of the year-on-year comparison is misleading at best in the context of the current discussion. Also bear on mind that terminal capacity remains reduced through the ongoing closure T3.

You keep referencing Jet2 diversions that were turned away? How many are we talking about and when was this? Are you sure you're not conflating it with the (one) Ryanair flight that departed back to Leeds and then had to divert to Liverpool?

Navpi

I'm sure you'll be delighted to know that R2 (23L/5R) is back in action for a number of nights this week to allow maintenance to R1.
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 16:49
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Ozzy, Aer Lingus UK have been parking on the Western Apron since they arrived in September.
You are not seeing any right now because there's only two aircraft on site and both operate daily. When the other A330 comes off heavy maintenance next month you'll be seeing one parked up again.

Anyway, I spotted a prime example of MAN's problems today. Nearly 20 vehicles queued up waiting to get airside through West Gate. Only two lanes open. That's a wait of nearly two hours for the ones at the back.
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 18:15
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AndrewH52 - November stats were a step in the right direction, but we've since seen a sudden kneejerk reintroduction of covid restrictions in the UK (since rescinded again) which the industry had been led to believe would not happen. This seriously damages confidence amongst regular folks who worry they might be caught out by sudden quarantine mandates or unanticipated costs if they dare to make new advance bookings for air travel. Uncertainty is a major barrier to recovery. Re data sets for comparison: the stats I used are the best we have available - and, actually, they tell the story right down to the last passenger and the last tonne of freight. If you wish to present alternative stats, we can discuss them. The non-availability of T3 can be changed at the discretion of management. Current demand justifies the mothballing of T3, but MAG makes the call on when traffic merits bringing it back online. Passenger throughput isn't depressed because T3 is closed; T3 is closed because passenger numbers remain depressed.

I haven't retained a record of diversion activity since the start of December (maybe others have?), but they certainly extend well beyond the one aircraft you keep referring to (it = singular), and I certainly recall instances of Jet2 and KLM having to divert from LBA.

HOVIS - Covid measures and the delayed lifting of US border restrictions meant that Aer Lingus UK had to delay their Manchester transatlantic launch. As with all carriers hit by covid mandates, they parked up aircraft until circumstances changed. Going forward, their based fleet will be scheduled to fly most days of the week. So moving into Summer '22, EUK aircraft parked overnight should not be an issue (unless politicians panic again).

Your West Gate account again underlines the need for MAG to redouble efforts to bring back resilience as a priority, and rebuild the capability of the business across all departments. I'm asking them to show some desire to get MAN back to the highs, and that means sweeping away the the negative 'no-can-do' culture.
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 18:22
  #1088 (permalink)  
 
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Can we assume that any major infrastructure development such as T2 at MAN or those recent/ongoing at other airports are designed in conjunction with the airlines?
I find it hard to believe that certain design "flaws" being flagged here were not agreed by the end users at some stage. Surely, effectively, some of the airlines' money is funding elements of such projects - if I were an airline boss then I'd want my say in how an airport/terminal etc would be designed and operated... hopefully to best suit my airline and customers.
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 19:13
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Given the nature of present discussions on here, this may surprise some. But we need to acknowledge the T2 TP as a job well done to date, given the tight budget and the challenges faced. Not one passenger was disrupted during that whole huge construction process ... most T2 customers were barely aware that work-in-progress was an ongoing issue. The new section of terminal and Pier 1 are a major asset to the campus and will remains so for years to come. We can debate matters of aesthetics and whether the terminal should have been pitched to a more business-orientated clientele, but IMHO they got it right. MAN's bread and butter is leisure travel, with a welcome proportion of business travel backing that up. But keep in mind that most passengers who fly via MAN on the prestige long-haul carriers do so in economy seats, having paid the lowest fare they can source. No-frills carriers' customers are not the only budget travellers. The smaller cohort of business customers will have lounge options available once everything is fully reopened following the covid nightmare.

'Out of sight, out of mind' also means that the gamechanging programme to realign and double-up much of MAN's taxiway network passes largely unacknowledged. It should be acknowledged. It will prove hugely beneficial when traffic levels return to something resembling the old normal. Kudos for that too. And several new remote stands were constructed as part of the programme.

Going forward, we know that covid struck before the TP reached its end-stage. The design calls for more piers to be constructed, and for legacy T2 to be revamped. Let's hope all that can be put back on track, but time will tell. On the negative side, most here would acknowledge that the T1/T3 complex is in dire need of some TLC, as they will host millions more customers yet. And we certainly need a solution to the defunct travellator issues in the Skylink ... the current debacle cannot be left to fester. Elderly customers simply cannot be expected to traipse those kind of distances with heavy luggage.

So, big plaudits where they are due, and strategic prods where they are not. There is still plenty of work to be done. But in the short term, much of that relates to building up staff resilience across several frontline departments, and reintroducing the long-lost 'CAN DO' culture which was a routine hallmark of using MAN just afew years ago. That may mean paying workers more. So be it ... it is not a bad thing to remunerate staff beyond the absolute minimum. I approve! It will cost money, but you've got to invest to accumulate. Well-managed businesses will commit to that.
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Old 10th Jan 2022, 22:24
  #1090 (permalink)  
 
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If anyone has not got passed caring:
A) EGCC B) 2201102005 C) 2202102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 10 Jan 2022 20:06:00

After the last extension of only 3 days, they've now decided to go for 3 weeks as I assume that means until 1st Feb. Perhaps it would take several other major UK airports to adopt the same blanket policy for the CAA to take action?
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 05:35
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Originally Posted by MANFOD
If anyone has not got passed caring:
A) EGCC B) 2201102005 C) 2202102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 10 Jan 2022 20:06:00

After the last extension of only 3 days, they've now decided to go for 3 weeks as I assume that means until 1st Feb. Perhaps it would take several other major UK airports to adopt the same blanket policy for the CAA to take action?
Or the positition (that nobody is aware of on this list is fully aware of) has been explained to the CAA and they are content?
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 13:48
  #1092 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MANFOD
If anyone has not got passed caring:
A) EGCC B) 2201102005 C) 2202102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 10 Jan 2022 20:06:00

After the last extension of only 3 days, they've now decided to go for 3 weeks as I assume that means until 1st Feb. Perhaps it would take several other major UK airports to adopt the same blanket policy for the CAA to take action?
Actually until 10th Feb.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 15:01
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Quite right Suzeman. Read some of the numbers back to front not for the first time!
Oh well, makes the renewal for 4 weeks and 3 days then, not 3 weeks. Cumulatively it will be over 7 weeks - and counting

Last edited by MANFOD; 11th Jan 2022 at 15:24.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 16:53
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
Given the nature of present discussions on here, this may surprise some. But we need to acknowledge the T2 TP as a job well done to date, given the tight budget and the challenges faced. Not one passenger was disrupted during that whole huge construction process ... most T2 customers were barely aware that work-in-progress was an ongoing issue. The new section of terminal and Pier 1 are a major asset to the campus and will remains so for years to come. We can debate matters of aesthetics and whether the terminal should have been pitched to a more business-orientated clientele, but IMHO they got it right. MAN's bread and butter is leisure travel, with a welcome proportion of business travel backing that up. But keep in mind that most passengers who fly via MAN on the prestige long-haul carriers do so in economy seats, having paid the lowest fare they can source. No-frills carriers' customers are not the only budget travellers. The smaller cohort of business customers will have lounge options available once everything is fully reopened following the covid nightmare.

'Out of sight, out of mind' also means that the gamechanging programme to realign and double-up much of MAN's taxiway network passes largely unacknowledged. It should be acknowledged. It will prove hugely beneficial when traffic levels return to something resembling the old normal. Kudos for that too. And several new remote stands were constructed as part of the programme.

Going forward, we know that covid struck before the TP reached its end-stage. The design calls for more piers to be constructed, and for legacy T2 to be revamped. Let's hope all that can be put back on track, but time will tell. On the negative side, most here would acknowledge that the T1/T3 complex is in dire need of some TLC, as they will host millions more customers yet. And we certainly need a solution to the defunct travellator issues in the Skylink ... the current debacle cannot be left to fester. Elderly customers simply cannot be expected to traipse those kind of distances with heavy luggage.

So, big plaudits where they are due, and strategic prods where they are not. There is still plenty of work to be done. But in the short term, much of that relates to building up staff resilience across several frontline departments, and reintroducing the long-lost 'CAN DO' culture which was a routine hallmark of using MAN just afew years ago. That may mean paying workers more. So be it ... it is not a bad thing to remunerate staff beyond the absolute minimum. I approve! It will cost money, but you've got to invest to accumulate. Well-managed businesses will commit to that.
Er, sorry, but it's already falling apart. Brand new airbridges with bits hanging off. The ground electrical power fails on a regular basis.
It was built on the cheap and it shows.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 16:57
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It was built to a budget. We know that. But it is a decent facility and MAN is very fortunate to have it. Teething problems are normal and can be fixed.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 18:09
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Originally Posted by AndrewH52
Ozzy. You keep referencing Jet2 diversions that were turned away? How many are we talking about and when was this? Are you sure you're not conflating it with the (one) Ryanair flight that departed back to Leeds and then had to divert to Liverpool?
.
Further to Ozzy's comments in reply, I can recall 2 x Jet2 flights diverting from Leeds to Newcastle, 1 to Edinburgh and 1 to Glasgow when the RVR at LBA was <200m on R32. There may have been others. Usually, Jet2 would use MAN as their alternate from LBA if available. In addition, a KLM diverted to NCL that sometimes might take MAN. Ryanair tend to prefer LPL for their Leeds diversions but use MAN as well.

We may have a repetition if the fog forecast over the next few days affects certain airports, although I guess the number of flights will be less than the build up over the Christmas period. Not that it will be of any concern to MAN unless it causes problems for its own flights.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 20:31
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
It was built to a budget. We know that. But it is a decent facility and MAN is very fortunate to have it. Teething problems are normal and can be fixed.
Built to a budget sounds ominous. How can bits falling off air bridges and ground electrical power failures be "teething problems"? The original T2 was really impressive in 1992 and definitely not a "budget" design.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 21:18
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Surely problem with airbridges and ground power units is the responsibility of the suppliers and should be handled by them - unless of course it is the result of the users who, and please correct me if I'm wrong, are the handling agents?

Edited due autocorrect error!!

Last edited by Sioltach Dubh Glas; 12th Jan 2022 at 07:33.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 21:18
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
It was built to a budget. We know that. But it is a decent facility and MAN is very fortunate to have it. Teething problems are normal and can be fixed.
Hahahah. Teething problems! 😁

When electrical power drops out on a 787 or 350 it's more than teething trouble it's bloody expensive. Causes huge delays and can damage the aircraft.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 23:43
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Sorry, but I'm not impressed.
Well at least you must know or care on this issue then. A big improvement in your demeanour.

I presume that you are offering feedback and suggesting remedies to those who can address the issues you identify?
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