Manchester-3
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Oh boy, diversions and ad hoc cargo again. This one will never go away, it seems.
I think Skipness 1F came closest in his assessment of the situation. I was part of the MAN Ops team for many years up to 2020. The airport runs a remarkably tight ship in terms of the ATMs/annual passenger throughout from what is really a rather small and certainly a very awkwardly laid out site. As Suzeman points out, the business ethos changed away from local pride etc over the years as MAG (a national group of airports) emerged. The small revenues gained from cargo and diversions don't outweigh the logistical challenges such traffic presents, and in the cost-benefit analysis there's a good chance that that revenue can still be captured via another MAG airport better able to accept it. Believe me, the logisitics puzzle of stand allocation at MAN is is a headache. Some very skilled and experienced people still juggle the plan day by day to make it work. It's easy to look out at any time and see vacant stands ("what's the problem?") but those vacant stands are like the spaces on a solitaire board - if one of them becomes occupied a fraction longer than expected then the whole plan falls over and cascades 12 or 24 hours ahead, making multiple stand changes necessary. And that is often the nature of cargo traffic, especially ad hoc - these flights book slots and then don't operate in accordance because the cargo has been delayed on the roads etc. Diversions by their nature don't operate to a schedule, and once they're on the ground they can stay there as crews go out of hours and so forth. Over the past 3 or 4 years it is MAN that has taken the brunt of the UK airline collapses - Monarch, Thomas Cook and FlyBe - plus the TUi 737 MAX grounding. These events have left MAN with all sorts of airframes lying around the apron and taxiways, for months in some cases. On a recent visit I noted 2 x Virgin A332s in long-term storage sitting on prime T2 stands. MAN cannot be a storage airfield and also accept diversions and ad hoc cargo, there's simply not the space. I think the management are doing their best to keep regular customers happy with the real estate they have. Building more is expensive.
I think Skipness 1F came closest in his assessment of the situation. I was part of the MAN Ops team for many years up to 2020. The airport runs a remarkably tight ship in terms of the ATMs/annual passenger throughout from what is really a rather small and certainly a very awkwardly laid out site. As Suzeman points out, the business ethos changed away from local pride etc over the years as MAG (a national group of airports) emerged. The small revenues gained from cargo and diversions don't outweigh the logistical challenges such traffic presents, and in the cost-benefit analysis there's a good chance that that revenue can still be captured via another MAG airport better able to accept it. Believe me, the logisitics puzzle of stand allocation at MAN is is a headache. Some very skilled and experienced people still juggle the plan day by day to make it work. It's easy to look out at any time and see vacant stands ("what's the problem?") but those vacant stands are like the spaces on a solitaire board - if one of them becomes occupied a fraction longer than expected then the whole plan falls over and cascades 12 or 24 hours ahead, making multiple stand changes necessary. And that is often the nature of cargo traffic, especially ad hoc - these flights book slots and then don't operate in accordance because the cargo has been delayed on the roads etc. Diversions by their nature don't operate to a schedule, and once they're on the ground they can stay there as crews go out of hours and so forth. Over the past 3 or 4 years it is MAN that has taken the brunt of the UK airline collapses - Monarch, Thomas Cook and FlyBe - plus the TUi 737 MAX grounding. These events have left MAN with all sorts of airframes lying around the apron and taxiways, for months in some cases. On a recent visit I noted 2 x Virgin A332s in long-term storage sitting on prime T2 stands. MAN cannot be a storage airfield and also accept diversions and ad hoc cargo, there's simply not the space. I think the management are doing their best to keep regular customers happy with the real estate they have. Building more is expensive.
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Oh boy, diversions and ad hoc cargo again. This one will never go away, it seems.
I think Skipness 1F came closest in his assessment of the situation. I was part of the MAN Ops team for many years up to 2020. The airport runs a remarkably tight ship in terms of the ATMs/annual passenger throughout from what is really a rather small and certainly a very awkwardly laid out site. As Suzeman points out, the business ethos changed away from local pride etc over the years as MAG (a national group of airports) emerged. The small revenues gained from cargo and diversions don't outweigh the logistical challenges such traffic presents, and in the cost-benefit analysis there's a good chance that that revenue can still be captured via another MAG airport better able to accept it. Believe me, the logisitics puzzle of stand allocation at MAN is is a headache. Some very skilled and experienced people still juggle the plan day by day to make it work. It's easy to look out at any time and see vacant stands ("what's the problem?") but those vacant stands are like the spaces on a solitaire board - if one of them becomes occupied a fraction longer than expected then the whole plan falls over and cascades 12 or 24 hours ahead, making multiple stand changes necessary. And that is often the nature of cargo traffic, especially ad hoc - these flights book slots and then don't operate in accordance because the cargo has been delayed on the roads etc. Diversions by their nature don't operate to a schedule, and once they're on the ground they can stay there as crews go out of hours and so forth. Over the past 3 or 4 years it is MAN that has taken the brunt of the UK airline collapses - Monarch, Thomas Cook and FlyBe - plus the TUi 737 MAX grounding. These events have left MAN with all sorts of airframes lying around the apron and taxiways, for months in some cases. On a recent visit I noted 2 x Virgin A332s in long-term storage sitting on prime T2 stands. MAN cannot be a storage airfield and also accept diversions and ad hoc cargo, there's simply not the space. I think the management are doing their best to keep regular customers happy with the real estate they have. Building more is expensive.
I think Skipness 1F came closest in his assessment of the situation. I was part of the MAN Ops team for many years up to 2020. The airport runs a remarkably tight ship in terms of the ATMs/annual passenger throughout from what is really a rather small and certainly a very awkwardly laid out site. As Suzeman points out, the business ethos changed away from local pride etc over the years as MAG (a national group of airports) emerged. The small revenues gained from cargo and diversions don't outweigh the logistical challenges such traffic presents, and in the cost-benefit analysis there's a good chance that that revenue can still be captured via another MAG airport better able to accept it. Believe me, the logisitics puzzle of stand allocation at MAN is is a headache. Some very skilled and experienced people still juggle the plan day by day to make it work. It's easy to look out at any time and see vacant stands ("what's the problem?") but those vacant stands are like the spaces on a solitaire board - if one of them becomes occupied a fraction longer than expected then the whole plan falls over and cascades 12 or 24 hours ahead, making multiple stand changes necessary. And that is often the nature of cargo traffic, especially ad hoc - these flights book slots and then don't operate in accordance because the cargo has been delayed on the roads etc. Diversions by their nature don't operate to a schedule, and once they're on the ground they can stay there as crews go out of hours and so forth. Over the past 3 or 4 years it is MAN that has taken the brunt of the UK airline collapses - Monarch, Thomas Cook and FlyBe - plus the TUi 737 MAX grounding. These events have left MAN with all sorts of airframes lying around the apron and taxiways, for months in some cases. On a recent visit I noted 2 x Virgin A332s in long-term storage sitting on prime T2 stands. MAN cannot be a storage airfield and also accept diversions and ad hoc cargo, there's simply not the space. I think the management are doing their best to keep regular customers happy with the real estate they have. Building more is expensive.
With respect to Rovermans comments I respectfully disagree we seem to have collective amnesia in respect of the 2 miles of tarmac lying idle which stretches out to Mobberley and towards Jodrell bank, by all mean lets get the excuses in now, but I'll wager if the CEO of Bournemouth was running Manchester they would be utilising every available metre of that runway in some capacity or another.
Quick quiz , how many aircraft did Bournemouth find space for during lockdown, it was a billion pounds worth,
ker ..ching !
And whilst there might be an abscence of civic pride there is surely a prerogative from our current CEO to add to their CV ?
We used to have thee best ops team and thee best cargo management team in the country, their input is sorely missed. Its a shame they don't offer consultancy to the current team who appear somewhat light on their feet.
Last edited by Navpi; 2nd Jan 2022 at 22:20.
[QUOTE]
Quick quiz , how many aircraft did Bournemouth find space for during lockdown it was a billion pounds worth,
ker ..ching ! [/QUOTE]
To be fair, the main base is just up the road along with their maintenance teams. Those aircraft needed fettling while in storage.
Quick quiz , how many aircraft did Bournemouth find space for during lockdown it was a billion pounds worth,
ker ..ching ! [/QUOTE]
To be fair, the main base is just up the road along with their maintenance teams. Those aircraft needed fettling while in storage.
Last edited by HOVIS; 3rd Jan 2022 at 13:13.
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I’m not sure I’d want MAN to handle anymore aircraft. They can’t handle the half full ones they have now.
The pax experience is abysmal. Departing T1 pre Christmas- the PIDs not updating check in information, means you have to hunt the desk,all the open food outlets were rammed full with nowhere to sit, yet swathes of empty tables & chairs were roped off around the closed units.
Coming back domestic you are dumped into T3 to a non functioning baggage belt with a blaring siren for half an hour. Then you have to trudge over to T1 with luggage to be picked up, & charged £5 for that privilege.Those unfamiliar with the layout appear lost.
Departing T2 pre New Year 45 minutes to clear security (SLA is 15).
that’s all aside from the non working skylink walkways- that they have no plans to re-instate.
The pax experience in T1/T3 is grim - there are next to no staff & those you encounter are bereft of any hint of caring.
The management appear to be way behind the curve on everything.
Those that have decided to fly during these challenging times are treated with disdain.
From my very recent experiences I’d say MAGs inability to provide for their current customers means the chances of providing resources for new cargo or diversions are pretty close to zero.
The pax experience is abysmal. Departing T1 pre Christmas- the PIDs not updating check in information, means you have to hunt the desk,all the open food outlets were rammed full with nowhere to sit, yet swathes of empty tables & chairs were roped off around the closed units.
Coming back domestic you are dumped into T3 to a non functioning baggage belt with a blaring siren for half an hour. Then you have to trudge over to T1 with luggage to be picked up, & charged £5 for that privilege.Those unfamiliar with the layout appear lost.
Departing T2 pre New Year 45 minutes to clear security (SLA is 15).
that’s all aside from the non working skylink walkways- that they have no plans to re-instate.
The pax experience in T1/T3 is grim - there are next to no staff & those you encounter are bereft of any hint of caring.
The management appear to be way behind the curve on everything.
Those that have decided to fly during these challenging times are treated with disdain.
From my very recent experiences I’d say MAGs inability to provide for their current customers means the chances of providing resources for new cargo or diversions are pretty close to zero.
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I imagine Ozzy, roverman and Suzeman have at least 75 years of experience between them in various capacities at MAN, so their views are always worth reading and taking on board. Interesting that 3 key elements mentioned that have affected the ethos & attitudes at the airport, and among the partner agencies, are the advent of lo-cost carriers with the squeeze on costs, the change in share ownership and the fact that MAN is simply part of a larger UK group rather than a stand-alone 'jewel in the crown' for the region.
Reading those comments and the pressure on parking stands, I do wonder what management's vision and ambition now is in terms of creating extra space in the medium to long term subject to the airport's land boundaries. While it's true we've seen some expansion from Jet2, easyjet and Ryanair in the years preceding the pandemic, the loss of Monarch, TCX and flybe has meant a significant reduction of their based a/c, even allowing for the fact that half of TCX and part of MON would be long haul aircraft arriving in the morning and not occupying stands overnight.
Reading those comments and the pressure on parking stands, I do wonder what management's vision and ambition now is in terms of creating extra space in the medium to long term subject to the airport's land boundaries. While it's true we've seen some expansion from Jet2, easyjet and Ryanair in the years preceding the pandemic, the loss of Monarch, TCX and flybe has meant a significant reduction of their based a/c, even allowing for the fact that half of TCX and part of MON would be long haul aircraft arriving in the morning and not occupying stands overnight.
Was just reading this MAN related story on the MEN website - I think you've missed another key component from your list, and that's the growth of out-sourcing, and the corresponding diluting of ownership and responsibility.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...rport-22626876
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...rport-22626876
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I've been through T3 recently and in the baggage claim area it was deserted apart from the inbound passengers and there was dozens of unattended bags that someone could have picked from and walked away with
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Was just reading this MAN related story on the MEN website - I think you've missed another key component from your list, and that's the growth of out-sourcing, and the corresponding diluting of ownership and responsibility.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...rport-22626876
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...rport-22626876
No it doesn't - a MAN respresentative trots the 'nowt to do with us, gov' line while BA say "We apologise unreservedly to customers" and "It’s clear that our service and communications fell short on this occasion and we’re taking the necessary steps with our third party handlers and couriers to ensure we avoid a similar situation in future" after fobbing the guy off to a string of contractors. Pretty sure he paid his money to BA. Ah well, lessons will be learnt...
But as stated, it's not about this specific issue its the "cost of everything, value of nothing approach" which leads to the lack of accountability and decline in service. And its not just "pay peanuts, get monkeys" either - I've worked on teams when the pay was crap and we got ran ragged, but you knew what you were doing and why, and didn't want to let people down. You got satisfaction from an ontime departure and felt crap at a delay.
But as stated, it's not about this specific issue its the "cost of everything, value of nothing approach" which leads to the lack of accountability and decline in service. And its not just "pay peanuts, get monkeys" either - I've worked on teams when the pay was crap and we got ran ragged, but you knew what you were doing and why, and didn't want to let people down. You got satisfaction from an ontime departure and felt crap at a delay.
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Rule 101 for an outsourcer is getting payment for everything as per the contract, and charging extra (and at a premium) for anything above and beyond.
Having been outsourced in the past, I know from first hand experience that former colleagues used to you going the extra mile when we were all on the same side, don’t take it well when your new boss in the outsourcing company actively prevents you from doing so without extra payment agreed in advance.
Another reason why the ‘pulling out the stops’ behaviour of the 70s argument advanced above is rarely relevant to the real world of 21st century business.
Having been outsourced in the past, I know from first hand experience that former colleagues used to you going the extra mile when we were all on the same side, don’t take it well when your new boss in the outsourcing company actively prevents you from doing so without extra payment agreed in advance.
Another reason why the ‘pulling out the stops’ behaviour of the 70s argument advanced above is rarely relevant to the real world of 21st century business.
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You can outsource a service. You can't outsource the responsibility of ensuring that the service is being delivered. Someone either from BA or HAL should have noticed that no luggage had been loaded.
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Welcome to the discussion Roverman, Suzeman and the artist formerly know as S1E, all sensible thoughts are welcome good or bad.
With respect to Rovermans comments I respectfully disagree we seem to have collective amnesia in respect of the 2 miles of tarmac lying idle which stretches out to Mobberley and towards Jodrell bank, by all mean lets get the excuses in now, but I'll wager if the CEO of Bournemouth was running Manchester they would be utilising every available metre of that runway in some capacity or another.
Quick quiz , how many aircraft did Bournemouth find space for during lockdown, it was a billion pounds worth,
ker ..ching !
And whilst there might be an abscence of civic pride there is surely a prerogative from our current CEO to add to their CV ?
We used to have thee best ops team and thee best cargo management team in the country, their input is sorely missed. Its a shame they don't offer consultancy to the current team who appear somewhat light on their feet.
With respect to Rovermans comments I respectfully disagree we seem to have collective amnesia in respect of the 2 miles of tarmac lying idle which stretches out to Mobberley and towards Jodrell bank, by all mean lets get the excuses in now, but I'll wager if the CEO of Bournemouth was running Manchester they would be utilising every available metre of that runway in some capacity or another.
Quick quiz , how many aircraft did Bournemouth find space for during lockdown, it was a billion pounds worth,
ker ..ching !
And whilst there might be an abscence of civic pride there is surely a prerogative from our current CEO to add to their CV ?
We used to have thee best ops team and thee best cargo management team in the country, their input is sorely missed. Its a shame they don't offer consultancy to the current team who appear somewhat light on their feet.
A financial incentive to leave a runway idle. That's all we need. Maybe MAG might be tempted to shut the other one too, then nobody will face the inconvenience of doing any work!
What is the point of having 2 runways in use when traffic does not require it, at one point there were less than 50 movements a day when traffic requires
it it will reopen which I think is slated nor summer season 2022. It can be used if needed ie maitenance or an emergency same as Heathrow did.
it it will reopen which I think is slated nor summer season 2022. It can be used if needed ie maitenance or an emergency same as Heathrow did.
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No - but that wasn't my point. Sh*t pay doesn't necessarily mean sh*t service like has been implied. It's more complex than that. Just like paying more doesn't mean you'll get better results.Helps, though.
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I can't be certain but I suspect that Runway 2 has been withdrawn from use as an asset in the medium term (Financial Year 21/22) to extract a considerable reduction in business rates. This would prevent use for aircraft parking and the saving will be calculated to outweigh any lost revenues.
Many airports in the UK created what i "assume" were revenue opportunities by parking aircraft on every available piece of tarmac during lockdown , except of course you know who.
At the time the excuse was wait for it, "oil dripping on the tarmac and causing contamination, "hang on, we are not talking, B707s, DC8s and Coronados", damn those " leaky old 787s and A380s", in terms of an excuse that did seem something of a stretch, maybe a reduction in rates is more plausible ? although quite why other airports didn't take that route is open to question.
MAN must have been able to somehow decapitate RW2 from the airport footprint more easily than those who grasped the opportunity that prevailed.
I can only think there was some head scratching from some of MAN customers that they were not allowed to park here and were forced to send aircraft to European airports.
Last edited by Navpi; 3rd Jan 2022 at 23:03.
What is the point of having 2 runways in use when traffic does not require it
My own concern would be that if there is a financial incentive to keep a runway closed (beyond direct operational savings), this could delay reinstatement beyond the optimum point of reopening. But hopefully that issue won't arise.
What an utterly disrespectful thing to say. You may have a beef with some of the management team at MAG
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Re contamination of RW2
[QUOTE]At the time the excuse was wait for it, "oil dripping on the tarmac and causing contamination, "hang on, we are not talking, B707s, DC8s and Coronados", damn those " leaky old 787s and A380s", in terms of an excuse that did seem something of a stretch, maybe a reduction in rates is more plausible ? although quite why other airports didn't take that route is open to question./QUOTE]
The majority of RW 2 is Asphalt/Bitumen which as you probably know can soften and degrade if it comes into contact with solvents (Jet A1, Hydraulic fluid, Oil.)
I think keeping RW2 expensive surface in pristine condition is a good call.
[QUOTE]At the time the excuse was wait for it, "oil dripping on the tarmac and causing contamination, "hang on, we are not talking, B707s, DC8s and Coronados", damn those " leaky old 787s and A380s", in terms of an excuse that did seem something of a stretch, maybe a reduction in rates is more plausible ? although quite why other airports didn't take that route is open to question./QUOTE]
The majority of RW 2 is Asphalt/Bitumen which as you probably know can soften and degrade if it comes into contact with solvents (Jet A1, Hydraulic fluid, Oil.)
I think keeping RW2 expensive surface in pristine condition is a good call.