Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.

Manchester-3

Old 24th Jul 2023, 06:39
  #2921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 3,177
Received 510 Likes on 302 Posts
Originally Posted by Navpi
Maybe we should align with the EU where this nonsense does not
Of course the UK should, but 'British Exceptionalism' is probably in play, along with current political dogma.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2023, 12:25
  #2922 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: SYD
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
The daft rule applies across the board in the UK. Shortly before the covid downturn, I flew Dubrovnik - Birmingham - Manchester with Freebird Europe.

Guess what? We all had to get off at BHX, go out through arrivals, join the lengthy security queue in the departures building (PIA B77W pax in the mix), go through the full security thing AGAIN ... and then get back to the aircraft. They told us we had an hour to do all this. Inevitably, it took much longer. Especially for me, as the gate staff couldn't find the transit boarding pass with my name on as we disembarked the aircraft. I was given a hand-written one about ten minutes after everyone else had set off. The whole thing is an absolute nonsense, of course.

But seriously, if a bad actor was intent on mischief, would they sit there quietly on the three hour DBV - BHX leg, risk getting caught at BHX security (if somehow not detected at DBV), and then do their worst on a 15 minute BHX - MAN hop?

Only a BRITISH DfT official could come up with a system so utterly ludicrous. Knowing what they've done to railways outside the SE as well, I can only despair at the level of talent evident in the DfT.
OzzyOzBorn is online now  
Old 24th Jul 2023, 19:11
  #2923 (permalink)  
RMC
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sutton
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Chalk and cheese

Originally Posted by TheFiddler
And Norse's / Norweigan's track record to pilots over the last 4 years is...
Norwegian, majorly anti union, screwed pilots during covid whilst management paid themselves massive bonuses.

Norse, only flying for just over a year. Pro union (positively encourages union membership) with close to 100% in the UK AOC. Long haul only operation with 15 aircraft vs Norwegian’s combined L/H and short haul operation with over ten times as many aircraft. Spoken to the founder on many occasions and would not treat people the way Norwegian did. These are a few of the dozens of differences, and, whilst there are many irrelevant overlaps, (eg using ex Norwegian aircraft, these are leased through a different company on a vastly superior contract). We could discuss every apparent overlap in detail but they are covered elsewhere. Norse’s fundamental culture, growth and people strategies are at different ends of the spectrum. If you want to believe Norse is Norwegian 2.0 that is up to you. Those who join will understand they are not.Time will tell.
RMC is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2023, 21:22
  #2924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just wading in on the discussion about transiting and screening… In 2009 I flew with Excel Airways FUE-LGW-MAN, we stayed onboard at LGW and arrived in MAN as international pax.

Besides the point but I do recall chaos in FUE as there was a flight to MAN, another to LGW and a third to LGW and MAN all scheduled to depart at the same time, all the MAN pax on our flight were flummoxed when they found out we were stopping en route.
YorkshirePud is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 10:12
  #2925 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 65
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
It's actually an affront to other countries security arrangements!

Navpi is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 10:27
  #2926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Blighty
Posts: 788
Received 88 Likes on 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Navpi
It's actually an affront to other countries security arrangements!
The USA don't seem to mind.
HOVIS is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 10:32
  #2927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 8,811
Received 187 Likes on 127 Posts
Originally Posted by Navpi
It's actually an affront to other countries security arrangements!
So going back to my earlier unanswered questions - how would you work it? How are you assessing other countries security arrangements or do you just take them on trust? How often do you review them? What do you do if you find issues in your review? How many other countries/airports are you assessing?

SWBKCB is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 13:24
  #2928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: SYD
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
So going back to my earlier unanswered questions - how would you work it? How are you assessing other countries security arrangements or do you just take them on trust? How often do you review them? What do you do if you find issues in your review? How many other countries/airports are you assessing?
Security checks at Singapore Changi are world class. Security checks at Houston Intercontinental are world class. Likewise at many other primary gateway airports. There could be an 'approved' list, with vetting and ongoing inspections coordinated by a recognised international body such as ICAO. In fact, doesn't this happen already?
You haven't been paying attention ... your question was not unanswered. ​​​​​​​
OzzyOzBorn is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 17:47
  #2929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 65
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
National tourism agency Visit Britain and Visit England has announced that it has selected Birmingham as the location for its new headquarters from April 2024.

The body – which raises Britain’s profile worldwide to develop the country’s visitor economy – picked Birmingham thanks to its strong international and UK transport links and availability of local talent.

'Er Hang on has there been a bidding process for this?
Who decided on this move ,was it independent or did they themseleves choose the location ?

I would have thought Liverpool, Leeds, Chester, York and even Manchester with its airport would all have been a more appropriate location?

Manchester Airport is of course sandwiched between all these cities nestled betwixt the tourist hotspots of;
The Lake District
Peak District
Yorkshire Dales
North Wales Castles

I'm really struggling to understand why they chose Birmingham unless it allows civil servants to continue to live in London with a paid daily commute by the taxpayer?

As for local talent thee largest University campus in Europe is actually in Manchester hence why a tsunami of high tech companies have shifted their back end processes there and why the largest GCHQ hub outside Cheltenham is located in the city, so not sure that stacks!

National tourism agency Visit Britain and Visit England has announced that it has selected Birmingham as the location for its new headquarters from April 2024. The body – which raises Britain’s profile worldwide to develop the country’s visitor economy – picked Birmingham thanks to its strong international and UK transport links and availability of local talent.


Navpi is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 18:02
  #2930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 8,811
Received 187 Likes on 127 Posts
Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
You haven't been paying attention ... your question was not unanswered.
Do ICAO undertake checks or provide policy/standards that they expect members to follow?

And on a seperate point, why the excitement over where Visit England are to be based, and whats the relevance to the Manchester Airport thread? Surely anywhere outside London is an improvement!
SWBKCB is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 18:28
  #2931 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 65
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Do ICAO undertake checks or provide policy/standards that they expect members to follow?

And on a seperate point, why the excitement over where Visit England are to be based, and whats the relevance to the Manchester Airport thread? Surely anywhere outside London is an improvement!
Well i would say it's highly relevant personally, lets not kid ourselves this has more to do with a commute than a relocation !

It has nothing to do with regional stakeholders be they individuals or groups, such as tourism professionals, public authorities, the press and other media who can actually influence the tourism industry and activities at a particular tourist destination.....

....it has everything to do with civil servants being able to stay living in London and being able to commute to Birmingham on a daily basis. That is why a number of other government departments have chosen Birmingham.
The heads and senior managers simply commute.

In effect it's paying lip service. It matters as far as Visit England is concerned as this was an ideal opportunity to change the narrative, personnel actually based in the regions are more likely to promote those regions.

Its crucial, as the impact could be dramatic, was Manchester or indeed Liverpool or Leeds included in this bid process?
i would happily support a relocation to any of those cities.

As Manchester Airport is the gateway airport for a significant number of these tourist hotspots alongside Liverpool Airport and Leeds and is at the epi centre of the largest tourist offering outside London i would have thought an office in a Northern England city was far more appropriate ( and cheaper).

Inbound tourism effects airports so its highly relevant to Manchester Airport given its intercontinental network.
Navpi is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 18:31
  #2932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 8,811
Received 187 Likes on 127 Posts
So is this thread now going to feature every investment decision that doesn't end up in Manchester?
SWBKCB is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 19:54
  #2933 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 65
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
So is this thread now going to feature every investment decision that doesn't end up in Manchester?
I'm pro Manchester Airport and this subject (in my view only) is an area worth discussing and a point worth making, you either agree or disagree, we all get the salty views

That's fine.

It would be splendid however if occasionally you argued points on facts rather than what quite frankly just throwing in miserable opinion pieces with nothing by way of support in terms of data.

It comes across as anti Manchester, anti Manchester Airport, infact anti anyone who has the temerity to support the airport as a driver of the economy in the North.

Cheer up man , it might nerver happen.....


Last edited by Navpi; 25th Jul 2023 at 21:48.
Navpi is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 20:26
  #2934 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London
Age: 43
Posts: 1,638
Received 11 Likes on 8 Posts
This thread continues to get hijacked by two people who were previously banned for exactly that.
Skipness One Foxtrot is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 20:52
  #2935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 3,177
Received 510 Likes on 302 Posts
Navpi,

It is possible and reasonable that government agencies can choose locations other than your beloved Manchester for a national base.

Actually given the London centric nature of the UK we should celebrate any agency leaving London for another location.

I really don't see the relevance to Manchester, or for that matter Birmingham Airports.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 21:21
  #2936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 62
Received 6 Likes on 4 Posts
This year I have transitted through Brussels, Dublin, Frankfurt, Madrid and Stockholm. Each time I have had to go through security again.

I didn't have to do it at Copenhagen.
Mayfield62 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 22:38
  #2937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Birmingham
Age: 63
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why wouldn’t Visit England choose the UK’s second biggest city ?
BHX5DME is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 23:17
  #2938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: SYD
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
Do ICAO undertake checks or provide policy/standards that they expect members to follow?
I'm not sure. That's why I included the question mark in my earlier response on this. Hopefully, if someone knows the answer they will speak up?

​​​​​​​ This year I have transitted through Brussels, Dublin, Frankfurt, Madrid and Stockholm. Each time I have had to go through security again.

I didn't have to do it at Copenhagen.
This is fairly standard and understandable if a change of flight is involved. The anomaly under discussion arises when passengers on the same two-sector flight are obliged to disembark, re-do security, and reboard the same aircraft instead of just remaining aboard during the interim stopover. Everything they have with them will have been security-checked at the airport of initial embarkation.
OzzyOzBorn is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2023, 23:32
  #2939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,528
Received 37 Likes on 21 Posts
I sincerely hope that those who know the answer won't be posting details of the UK National Aviation Security Programme on an open forum.

This isn't going to change any time soon. I'd give up and move on. Doing some kind of one-sided battle with DFT from an internet forum is completely futile. The UK's policy is what the UK's policy is - there are certain reasons and rationale for it, even though I might not agree with all of them - and it's not especially bright to be initiating a debate on specific details of national airport security policy.
Flightrider is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2023, 01:00
  #2940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: SYD
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
I sincerely hope that those who know the answer won't be posting details of the UK National Aviation Security Programme on an open forum.
That reply comes across as unnecessarily pompous. Nobody has asked for anything of this sort. Enquiring whether ICAO is the recognised authority for coordinating security standards between member states doesn't seem controversial to me. They're heavily involved and trusted in other safety-critical areas of this industry.

​​​​​​​ Doing some kind of one-sided battle with DFT from an internet forum is completely futile.
And we're not doing that either. We're discussing a very specific anomaly which puts UK airports bidding for transit flights at a commercial disadvantage vis-a-vis airports in neighbouring countries where no similar illogical rule is applied. Additional fifth-freedom services could be very beneficial at airports such as MAN and BHX. There is already the Singapore Airlines SIN-MAN-IAH operation, and there are other historical precedents. Others mooted in recent times include Biman rerouting their stopovers from IST to MAN, and Ethiopian combining DUB-MAN-ADD. However, the transit flight disembarkation requirement is a major disincentive for such operations to choose MAN over continental competitors, and that is particularly damaging at an airport which has significant long-haul demand but no home-based hub carrier. It has knock-on effects on the region's economy from an opportunity cost perspective, and it is quite legitimate to discuss lobbying for relaxing that one specific rule which no other country seems to consider necessary to impose. The reasons why it is safe to do so have been discussed upthread.

Nobody here has been asking for online publication of criteria used by UK airport security providers applied to passengers boarding flights at our airports. It would be irresponsible to solicit that, but nobody has. Your outrage is misplaced.

​​​​​​​ it's not especially bright to be initiating a debate on specific details of national airport security policy.
If one very specific rule appears illogical in it's application, then public bodies should not be immune from questioning by those businesses adversely affected. If our institutions are treated as 'untouchable', then beneficial change can never come. They do their best, no doubt, but they don't get everything right. The DfT, in particular, gets a lot wrong. If something can be done better, I fully endorse putting that proposal forward for consideration. In this specific case, a rule which appears superfluous is costing UK regional airports (and our economy) valuable fifth freedom flight opportunities, with no apparent upside in terms of enhanced security. We know that government 'experts' don't get everything right, and we should not allow an unnecessary regulation to disadvantage our economy in a major way without asking the question as to whether it can be changed. Again, nobody is asking for their sensitive security data to be published online. That is a wayward interpretation of this debate.
OzzyOzBorn is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.