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Flybe-9

Old 29th Mar 2020, 13:24
  #4021 (permalink)  
 
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Question: does anyone really, genuinely believe that Flybe would have survived anyway had Coronavirus not come along? Its financial woes (the latest round) hit the headlines in January and remained there all the way through February, when Coronavirus was a far-off, distant issue to so many of us. It was an airline in deep trouble and requiring Government bail-outs back in January. Although I know they said what they said at the time of closure, I really can't see how they'd have had a chance of survival without Government support, with or without Coronavirus.

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Old 29th Mar 2020, 13:44
  #4022 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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The Flybe pension scheme is, of course, based in the IOM, so not covered by the U.K. Pension Protection Fund. With no real assets left the government wouldn’t be rescuing an airline, but Being asked to take responsibility for the pensions?
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 14:13
  #4023 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Albert Hall View Post
Question: does anyone really, genuinely believe that Flybe would have survived anyway had Coronavirus not come along? Its financial woes (the latest round) hit the headlines in January and remained there all the way through February, when Coronavirus was a far-off, distant issue to so many of us. It was an airline in deep trouble and requiring Government bail-outs back in January. Although I know they said what they said at the time of closure, I really can't see how they'd have had a chance of survival without Government support, with or without Coronavirus.
Probably not. But if bankruptcy protection existed here like it does in the states, perhaps BE could have ditched all the E jets and closed all the silly bases it opened to keep them busy. They could have retrenched to their key bases that built them into the big player they became in the first place, and ticked along nicely. On paper I cannot see how a fleet of q400s operating from a few strategic bases on domestic routes and the key continental trunk routes could be any more of a profitable operation? Of course things aren't that simple, but its not like BE had much competition on those routes. I would love to know what part the lessors played in BE's demise, it looks like NAC lease both E jets and q400s to BE. Whilst a contract is a contract, you would like to think it would be better to allow BE to ditch the E jets than force the airline to collapse and have all the q400s also sitting idle. I suspect the coronavirus will be dishing sum long awaited humble pie to airline lessors.
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 15:57
  #4024 (permalink)  
 
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It would be a mere shadow of its former self if this all got the green light
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 15:59
  #4025 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Startledgrapefruit View Post
I am sure the government could find some experts on PPRuNe that could do it
Don't be ridiculous, surely you should know all the PPRuNe experts are currently instructing the government on policy and telling Boris exactly how to run things.
Once they have rescued the country and written a few Daily Mail articles then they will once again be available for all matters aviation related.
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 17:34
  #4026 (permalink)  
 
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Let's not forget the not-so-insignificant effect of them switching their selling and hosting systems from Shares to Amadeus. This would have added a massive cost e.g from £1-2 per sector to £6-7 per sector. A stupid decision taken under COW's watch.
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 17:49
  #4027 (permalink)  
 
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Although the switch to Amadeus wasn't helpful, I think there were some rather larger issues around!

RivetJoint, I'd been told that the lessors had afforded Flybe quite a lot of latitude as they did not want a load of parked and unsaleable Q400s. They have been bitten badly as all of the debts left after Flybe had negotiated revised payment terms at the airports have become their problem given how these things work. They have not only got a load of unwanted aircraft back but are having to pay a lot to the airports to un-impound them.

The thing that ultimately brought Flybe to a halt that night was a fuel supplier at Glasgow pulling its credit terms and then the airport reacting. Something was going to start the domino effect at some point, but in terms of the final trigger, that's what did it. Nothing to do with the lessors.
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 20:51
  #4028 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of the Dashes at SOU have been hangared for work over the last few days. On the move soon?
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 07:44
  #4029 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Albert Hall View Post
Although the switch to Amadeus wasn't helpful, I think there were some rather larger issues around!.
It was indicative of poor management decisions, perhaps? Why did a small regional, low cost airline with wafer thin, or negative margins need such a capable and expensive infrastructure? Presumably Amadeus promised the sun moon and stars in terms of additional revenue. EI for example still continue to use their archaic system because it is cheap.
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Old 30th Mar 2020, 07:51
  #4030 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jmccrew View Post

Can't see that happening, especially in the light of Loganair's statement today. Probably a journalist's opportunism.
Loganair stepped in after the Flybe collapse but now are in need of help.

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/1...rvive-says-md/.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:23
  #4031 (permalink)  
 
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https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...-deal-11966720

It looks like itís definitely over. Feel for them as aviation will be in a terrible state for years.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 05:39
  #4032 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly looks that way. I get the impression ex employees kept assuming that the airline would re-open in some way, which is positive thinking but futile thinking.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:07
  #4033 (permalink)  
MJR
 
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As an ex-Flybe employee, perhaps I can add some clarity to this thread.

On the 5th March, all 2000+ employees at Flybe were made redundant with no notice and no redundancy pay.

Shortly after, the government offered compensation to employees who were furloughed by companies that couldnít continue to trade following the Covid 19 outbreak. Because Flybe employees were redundant and not furloughed they were not entitled to compensation. Hence the idea came about for the government to buy Flybe in order for the staff to be eligible for this compensation.NOT for the purpose of reinstating the company as an operational airline.

Since then the government has now offered compensation for the employees of insolvent companies too, however the Administrators for Flybe have refused to invoke this right on a cost basis. This demand has been made by the IPA/BALPA and thus far has been rejected by Ernst Young. The request is now being made directly to the treasury.

I hope this helps.🧟‍♂️
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:39
  #4034 (permalink)  
 
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The idea of Flybe staff being able to access the same funding would be great, but I guess there are just lots of complications here.
  • Furloughing means you're still employed by a business that still exists, but Flybe became insolvent on 5th March and ceased to exist as a going concern on this date.
  • If furloughed, what happens to these individuals? The Flybe business is being administrated and bits of it sold off to the highest bidder so there will be no business to return too.
  • Many of those made redundant on 5th March will have already received and put to use redundancy payments. Wouldn't these need to be repaid by those individuals if they are to be furloughed instead?
No doubt there are others too. I really do have huge empathy for the situation at Flybe. I had many friends that worked there but as so often seems to be the case, it just comes down to timing and you either fall one side of the line or the other.
On this occasion, a business that has used up a number of lives in the past succumbed to its last.

What I'm really disappointed by is that not enough priority has been given to regional connectivity. I can't help but feel that what this country will need, more than anything else when all this is over, is not an operator with a heavy leisure bias, but one that is more business orientated to help build a recovery here in the UK. Flybe would've been able to offer this and help speed us through the recovery phase and get business moving again.

Last edited by JobsaGoodun; 3rd Apr 2020 at 13:38.
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 09:56
  #4035 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JobsaGoodun View Post
The idea of Flybe staff being able to access the same funding would be great, but I guess there are just lots of complications here.
  • Furloughing means you're still employed by a business that still exists, but Flybe became insolvent on 5th March and ceased to exist as a going concern on this date.
  • If furloughed, what happens to these individuals? The Flybe business is being administrated and bits of it sold off to the highest bidder so there will be no business to return too.
  • Many of those made redundant on 5th March will have already received and put to use redundancy payments. Wouldn't these need to be repaid by those individuals if they are to be furloughed instead?
  • No doubt there are others too....
I really do have huge empathy for the situation at Flybe, as many of my friends worked there but as so often seems to be the case, it just comes down to timing and I guess you either fall one side of the line, or the other.
On this occasion, a business that has used up a number of lives over the recent decade just couldn't hold on long enough.

What I'm really disappointed by is that not enough priority has been given to regional connectivity. I can't help but feel that what this country will need, more than anything else when all this is over, is not an operator with a heavy leisure bias, but one that is more business orientated to help build a recovery at hear in the UK. As it did in the past, Flybe would've been able to do that and help speed us through the recovery phase and get business moving again.
Letís give a little credit to Loganair and Eastern as they stepped in very quickly to pick up core domestic routes. Itís only for the unfortunate timing of COVID 19 that has derailed their new ventures. We can only hope that once this pandemic is over, these airlines will still be available to help the recovery for U.K. connectivity!
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 11:53
  #4036 (permalink)  
 
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MJR

I understand your points but if thats the case why is there numerous requests on facebook etc. by ex employees, to sign a petition for a state run airline. To be honest meaning a resurrection of flybe. Or the letter sent to the Chancellor by staff saying:Your government has committed to ‘levelling up the country’ and to supporting regional connectivity. In these difficult days, weeks and months this country will need the transport infrastructure that only Flybe can offer, which in turn will stimulate our economy not only though (sic) this connectivity but also by protecting jobs for pilots, cabin crew, engineers and support staff through airports and local suppliers.

“We believe this can be achieved quickly with a dynamic workforce of skilled professionals who are ready to ‘get back to work’ to support our economy, business, travel and tourism by providing regional connectivity that is accessible across the United Kingdom.

All i was saying is that the chances of a resurrection based on the above is virtually nil . Other regionals have and will step in to fill the profitable gaps. This I am sure will offer opportunities to ex flybe staff and I hope the best for them. However, it is extremely important for expectations to be founded in a sense of reality regarding the situation.

Just for clarity.

Last edited by jamestkirk; 3rd Apr 2020 at 13:27. Reason: Spelling mistake
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Old 3rd Apr 2020, 13:15
  #4037 (permalink)  
 
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A Q400 (G-PRPH) positioned from LHR to EXT this morning. The first flight of any ex-BEE aircraft since administration?
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 21:38
  #4038 (permalink)  
 
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What I never understood is if Virgin wanted Flybe to become a Virgin brand, why buy it when you could have just given them a US style franchise, Virgin control the costs, the routs, the branding, customer services etc, Flybe still keep their AOC and would have stayed afloat. I still think the only reason they bought Flybe was for the Heathrow slots, the coronavirus amongst other things scuppered that.

However once this is all over we are still going to have a massive hole in regional connectivity, whilst Loganair & Blue Islands might have filled some of those flights, they will be in a very weak position as will all airlines, I wouldn't be surprised to see Loganair, Eastern & Blue Islands merge or join together in some sort of way.
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Old 13th Apr 2020, 06:56
  #4039 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airsouthwest View Post
What I never understood is if Virgin wanted Flybe to become a Virgin brand, why buy it when you could have just given them a US style franchise, Virgin control the costs, the routs, the branding, customer services etc, Flybe still keep their AOC and would have stayed afloat. I still think the only reason they bought Flybe was for the Heathrow slots, the coronavirus amongst other things scuppered that.

However once this is all over we are still going to have a massive hole in regional connectivity, whilst Loganair & Blue Islands might have filled some of those flights, they will be in a very weak position as will all airlines, I wouldn't be surprised to see Loganair, Eastern & Blue Islands merge or join together in some sort of way.
I know Heathrow slots are valuable but it seems a lot of trouble to go to for slots that would not have belonged to them. I can't see Cyrus capital letting them have them for free. They'd have to have paid for them somehow either through purchase or leasing if either were possible as Cyrus would've wanted a return on their investment.
Personally I think that Virgin just bit off more than they could chew.
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Old 13th Apr 2020, 10:49
  #4040 (permalink)  
 
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It is strange they didn't realise (or maybe they did) that the business model was just nothing more than road kill. Maybe they got convinced by the various highly incompetent senior management statements over the years that 'our strategy is working'. Clearly not. There is a Sky news article where is looks like they were burning £10 million a month. It is incredulous that with 8 million passengers and a turnover of £800 million that they couldn't make any money. Again, highly incompetent management. Now the staff have to pay for their ineptitude.

Last edited by cabsav; 13th Apr 2020 at 10:49. Reason: deletion
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