MANCHESTER 1
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Sidenote: no trailing carry-on on the escalators any more - and the esclator tends to takes ages here and there.
Join Date: Jul 2009
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hainan
This whole episode is curious to say the least. There did seem to be serious indications that Hainan were about to launch scheduled to China from Manchester and Sarah's input by virtue of email correspondence with the airline bore this out. Also in previous posts i seem to remember someone saying that personnel were already in post at Man to see this service through.
So what happened? In truth, only Hainan can answer that. But we can all speculate....
Two options that appear to me might be a) Hainan have been impressed by the interest in this (charter) service and have decided to jump in with both feet to see it establish into a fully-fledged scheduled service, or b) the charter operation is not doing as well as it did last year on a much smaller offering and have decided/been persuaded to step in and increase pax.
Are there any other options? Have BHX made such a spectacular presentation to Hainan based on the commercial trade links between China and the Midlands region economy?. Only recently it was reported that the West Midlands region is the fastest growing regional economy outside the southeast; and much of this growth comes from trading links with China. Where historically so much of the West Midlands engineering structure was based on UK investment, so much of it now is China owned.
If what is happening with Hainan leads to a dedicated air link with China, then maybe Chinese airlines and businesses really do know where their future lies.
So what happened? In truth, only Hainan can answer that. But we can all speculate....
Two options that appear to me might be a) Hainan have been impressed by the interest in this (charter) service and have decided to jump in with both feet to see it establish into a fully-fledged scheduled service, or b) the charter operation is not doing as well as it did last year on a much smaller offering and have decided/been persuaded to step in and increase pax.
Are there any other options? Have BHX made such a spectacular presentation to Hainan based on the commercial trade links between China and the Midlands region economy?. Only recently it was reported that the West Midlands region is the fastest growing regional economy outside the southeast; and much of this growth comes from trading links with China. Where historically so much of the West Midlands engineering structure was based on UK investment, so much of it now is China owned.
If what is happening with Hainan leads to a dedicated air link with China, then maybe Chinese airlines and businesses really do know where their future lies.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
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Could be complete nonsense, but this is a rumour site, yes ?
Hainan added Shanghai to the equation late on and it added hurdles, hurdles that could not be over come quickly. Flight was to route MAN-Beijing-Shanghai.
We'll see...or maybe we won't !!!
Hainan added Shanghai to the equation late on and it added hurdles, hurdles that could not be over come quickly. Flight was to route MAN-Beijing-Shanghai.
We'll see...or maybe we won't !!!
Join Date: Jan 2011
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I don't really think PVG was ever in the mix at this stage; Hainan were rumoured to open MAN-PEK, MAN expressed interest in gaining a link to PEK as well, Hainan then announced PEK-BOS and bizzarely someone put two and two together and came up with nineteen!
Join Date: Jul 2007
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This article from Bloomberg has a few more specifics about future growth targets for MAN based on O'Toole's comments that were surprisingly missing from the M.E.N stories. No real surprises but it's good to see them mentioned again after a period in which only China seemed to get a look in.
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Nothing new here but it's Mr O'Toole's first piece for the M.E.N since he was appointed MD of MAN.
Opinion: Our thriving gateway - Manchester Evening News
Opinion: Our thriving gateway - Manchester Evening News
"…..Contrary to recent reports claiming that Heathrow expansion is good for the regions and is the best option for the country’s future aviation needs, we strongly believe that the north does not need another runway at Heathrow to connect to global markets."
Unfortunately for him, everyone else (including overseas) appears to think otherwise, including many in the north. Like it or not, there are some destinations that could support a Heathrow route (capacity permitting) but not a Ringway route.
An "inconvenient truth" perhaps, because most Ringway longhaul routes are also at Heathrow, so there is no way that Ringway can act as a Heathrow third rwy.
The reality is that the Uk needs both a properly functioning hub airport with plenty of capacity and gateway airports.
Yet another one suggests MAN targeting China, LA, Boston, San Francisco. ......oh AND India !
India ?
India ?
Would agree that India is unlikely at present, unless 9W moves its scissor hub from BRU.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I think the Hainan debacle shows why CA would be a much better option. CA have more connections at PEK and are at T3, where as Hainan fly out of the old terminal. Hainan are also announcing routes here there and everywhere. They are good to fly on internally, my first flight on a 787 was with them, but I would not trust their long haul.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I agree with FDF at least I think I do ?
Whilst we do see Lhr as a major threat in terms of "possible" funding, Manchester has its own distinct markets and great potential on a number of niche routes , but these are specific to It's own catchment area.
We simply want a level playing field.
Whilst it "might" be an unavoidable although unlikely consequence, i am pretty sure none of us want to benefit simply because Heathrow is mired in planning issues !
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The press release strategy this time was very odd for MAN. It was either very lengthy and different media outlets have pulled out there own bits or different agencies were given a different spin. All very odd.
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Re Hainan. Is BHX a designated airport re bilaterals ?
Whilst we do see Lhr as a major threat in terms of "possible" funding, Manchester has its own distinct markets and great potential on a number of niche routes , but these are specific to It's own catchment area.
We simply want a level playing field.
Whilst it "might" be an unavoidable although unlikely consequence, i am pretty sure none of us want to benefit simply because Heathrow is mired in planning issues !
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The press release strategy this time was very odd for MAN. It was either very lengthy and different media outlets have pulled out there own bits or different agencies were given a different spin. All very odd.
______________________________________________
Re Hainan. Is BHX a designated airport re bilaterals ?
Join Date: Jul 2007
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This quote is taken from a post on a.net and has rather different wording to anything else I've seen, which exemplifies Bagso's point. I hope the contributor doesn't mind. Is it from the full report on Business Desk I wonder, where I can't register.
The first para. is quite intriguing. Is it just referring to normal visits by the Route Development team, or indicating staff have been posted there for a longer period which would certainly show serious intent.
"Manchester Airport has posted staff in both Asia and America in a bid to lure new airlines. It has workers on the ground in both Beijing and the mid-west of the States, who are working to woo the carriers.
Airport chiefs have made no secret of their desire to secure direct flights to mainland China, with Beijing and other cities in the south a priority. It is also hoping to talk to airline that service Korea, Indonesia and Japan.
The west coast of America is another priority, particularly Los Angeles, and it is monitoring the work of low cost carrier WestJet, which is looking to operate transatlantic flights from Canada to UK airports."
The first para. is quite intriguing. Is it just referring to normal visits by the Route Development team, or indicating staff have been posted there for a longer period which would certainly show serious intent.
"Manchester Airport has posted staff in both Asia and America in a bid to lure new airlines. It has workers on the ground in both Beijing and the mid-west of the States, who are working to woo the carriers.
Airport chiefs have made no secret of their desire to secure direct flights to mainland China, with Beijing and other cities in the south a priority. It is also hoping to talk to airline that service Korea, Indonesia and Japan.
The west coast of America is another priority, particularly Los Angeles, and it is monitoring the work of low cost carrier WestJet, which is looking to operate transatlantic flights from Canada to UK airports."
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Personal opinion - Admitted copy and paste of my comments in another place.
Why Hainan are playing Chinese whispers !
Reports of twitters are clear evidence of the potency of those
With HU releasing new routes everywhere BUT the UK and todate in 2015 the ONLY Chinese growth to the UK being China Eastern going daily and AirChina moving their second flight out of the usual waiting rooms, it certain there is more going on politically - Whitehall or Beijing who knows but the UK as a whole is not getting preferential treatment is it ?
Add to the play by Hainan go to their site and the side banner offers are from both Manchester and Heathrow prominently flashing (via Brussels).
Clearly they planned to be in this market RIGHT NOW but are be being prevented.
Further go to the interactive route map - they have added the Birmingham charter route - but try to get the scheduled and book - You can't -they will also route you via SN and Brussels.
Next visit the ACL slot site and you will find HU DO have Manchester slots post 2nd September-these haven't been handed back !
IMO the UK elections may have something to do with the delays and its likely the revised bi-laterals haven't been ratified yet.
So i suspect none of the prime candidates i.e. Edinburgh, Manchester and Birmingham has any form of official designation at the current point in time !
With a September/October or Winter schedules there is yet still time for 2015.
Why Hainan are playing Chinese whispers !
Reports of twitters are clear evidence of the potency of those
With HU releasing new routes everywhere BUT the UK and todate in 2015 the ONLY Chinese growth to the UK being China Eastern going daily and AirChina moving their second flight out of the usual waiting rooms, it certain there is more going on politically - Whitehall or Beijing who knows but the UK as a whole is not getting preferential treatment is it ?
Add to the play by Hainan go to their site and the side banner offers are from both Manchester and Heathrow prominently flashing (via Brussels).
Clearly they planned to be in this market RIGHT NOW but are be being prevented.
Further go to the interactive route map - they have added the Birmingham charter route - but try to get the scheduled and book - You can't -they will also route you via SN and Brussels.
Next visit the ACL slot site and you will find HU DO have Manchester slots post 2nd September-these haven't been handed back !
IMO the UK elections may have something to do with the delays and its likely the revised bi-laterals haven't been ratified yet.
So i suspect none of the prime candidates i.e. Edinburgh, Manchester and Birmingham has any form of official designation at the current point in time !
With a September/October or Winter schedules there is yet still time for 2015.
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Why Hainan are playing Chinese whispers !
And to me, this is why the Hainan route 'confusion' is such an odd one, and so baffling as to what is stopping the route from happening.
We have rumours all the time, most often from a 3rd party source, but this time the parties involved have added plenty of fuel to the fire.
1- On September 4th in Paris, at the launch of Paris-Xi-an, the vice chair of Hainan Airlines clearly and undoubtedly said that 'Manchester is our next target, to launch some time in 2015'. The articles are out there to back this up (albeit in French).
2- Then, a leaked memo from Hainan appeared on a Chinese site, stating that amongst other routes, MAN would be launched in May, 2015.
3-Hainan staff had been spotted at MAN on at least 3 occasions last year, in quite quick succession, which, to me, is just a bit more than 'scoping the airport' or signing a diversion contract (aside from the BHX charters, no Hainan aircraft gets closer to MAN than Brussels, so, what would be diverting anyway?)
4- Hainan still hold slots for Sept 2nd, and were not handed back. But, ets also remember, while they have said no MAN in 2015, thise slots can be used until March 28th 2016, and, Cathay launched in winter, so, not beyond the realms of possibility that Hainan could launch in winter too.
5- At the back end of 2014, Charlie Cornish stated MAN was just '3 months away from announcing a flight to Beijing at 5 weekly'. Not only is that very unusual wording (normally nothing much is given away from the bigwigs until its official), but, it seemed quite a confident statement. What went wrong in those 3 months to go from a 'dead cert' to then, well, nothing?
6- The very confusing statements from the customer services teams. Yes, the last confusion was a mistake on their part, but, there were seversl communications which seem to suggest MAN was on the cards.
7- September 28th 2014 (ish), George Osbourne states that Hainan have the rights to serve MAN (presumably the rights at the UK end).
So, from the UK end, everything seemed a dead on cert, so, what about the Chinese end?
I was under the impression that Air China had the Chinese end rights, back from 2007, to operate 7 weekly MAN-PEK, which, they were intending to start in 2009. China operates a 1 airline per route policy, so, if Air China still hold the rights at that end, is it them stopping the flight?
If so, MAN could be stuck in a very bad stalemate. CA holding the China end, HU holding the UK end, and neither willing to back down.
Food for thought?
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Good analysis there by Lax.
If the problem was potentially at the UK end I am sure MAN would be holding current cabinet and shadow ministers to account re firm assurances in respect of this should they get into Parliament, that said they can be a bit timid when it comes to vocalising a grievance in the national press preferring "hopefully" quiet diplomacy.
Never thought I would say this but MAN might be advised to steer well clear re HU if there performance thus far is a thing to go by.
If the problem was potentially at the UK end I am sure MAN would be holding current cabinet and shadow ministers to account re firm assurances in respect of this should they get into Parliament, that said they can be a bit timid when it comes to vocalising a grievance in the national press preferring "hopefully" quiet diplomacy.
Never thought I would say this but MAN might be advised to steer well clear re HU if there performance thus far is a thing to go by.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Yes, a good, fair summary by LAX. The only thing I would add is that before Charlie Cornish's more direct comments, were there not a couple of quotes from MAN indicating they were in talks with a number of Chinese carriers?
That was in response to being asked specifically about the Hainan story.
Also, if Air China do still hold the rights for MAN - PEK and it is only 1 airline per route, shouldn't that fact have been known to the UK Government and MAN? Perhaps it was and that's why MAN were not just focused on Hainan.
Just to speculate further: while it would usually be quite normal for an airport to be in discussions with several (competitor) airlines over potential new services, would this be the protocol when dealing with China? If MAN were talking to say Air China as well, and for the same route, it might just suggest they didn't have full confidence in the Hainan negotiations coming to fruition even if that airline was regarded as the front runner, especially if it was Air China that held traffic rights.
Nevertheless, LAX's scenario that it could be a stalemate over conflicting traffic rights in the two countries sounds feasible.
My guess is that Ken O'Toole could be announcing a new long haul route before China but it's very unfortunate MAN finds itself in this position.
That was in response to being asked specifically about the Hainan story.
Also, if Air China do still hold the rights for MAN - PEK and it is only 1 airline per route, shouldn't that fact have been known to the UK Government and MAN? Perhaps it was and that's why MAN were not just focused on Hainan.
Just to speculate further: while it would usually be quite normal for an airport to be in discussions with several (competitor) airlines over potential new services, would this be the protocol when dealing with China? If MAN were talking to say Air China as well, and for the same route, it might just suggest they didn't have full confidence in the Hainan negotiations coming to fruition even if that airline was regarded as the front runner, especially if it was Air China that held traffic rights.
Nevertheless, LAX's scenario that it could be a stalemate over conflicting traffic rights in the two countries sounds feasible.
My guess is that Ken O'Toole could be announcing a new long haul route before China but it's very unfortunate MAN finds itself in this position.
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The whole China scenario is just going to have to be 'one to watch' for the forseeable I think.
I suppose we should be grateful we have a link to China with Cathay, even if people dont fully see it as 'China'. There is scope for daily, and I would not be surprised in the slightest of we have 10 weekly by the end of 2016.
In terms of long haul, I agree fully with MANFOD that there is very likely to be one, maybe even up to 3 or 4 new long haul links announced before Beijing.
Look at it this way, Thomas Cook added Boston and Los Angeles to their booking engine for 2016, much in the same way Miami and New York were added months before any announcement. To me that signals intent, as I doubt TCX and their IT guys spend that time making the code for the booking engines 'just for fun'.
We then have WestJet, who, have stated in the past MAN is on their radar, are going to soon be announcing new TATL flights and MAN has said they are talking to them.
Thirdly, Iraqi Airways have said that Baghdad is a possibility from MAN. Its served from LGW, so, one to watch again.
Lastly, Thomson and VS/DL could be one to watch. Thomson as they have said MAN-HKT is possible, and in terms of VS/DL, I don't think we have seen the last of their expansion at MAN.
So yes, not getting PEK this year is disappointing, but, on the whole, there is still a few possibilities to keep us on the positive vibes.
I suppose we should be grateful we have a link to China with Cathay, even if people dont fully see it as 'China'. There is scope for daily, and I would not be surprised in the slightest of we have 10 weekly by the end of 2016.
In terms of long haul, I agree fully with MANFOD that there is very likely to be one, maybe even up to 3 or 4 new long haul links announced before Beijing.
Look at it this way, Thomas Cook added Boston and Los Angeles to their booking engine for 2016, much in the same way Miami and New York were added months before any announcement. To me that signals intent, as I doubt TCX and their IT guys spend that time making the code for the booking engines 'just for fun'.
We then have WestJet, who, have stated in the past MAN is on their radar, are going to soon be announcing new TATL flights and MAN has said they are talking to them.
Thirdly, Iraqi Airways have said that Baghdad is a possibility from MAN. Its served from LGW, so, one to watch again.
Lastly, Thomson and VS/DL could be one to watch. Thomson as they have said MAN-HKT is possible, and in terms of VS/DL, I don't think we have seen the last of their expansion at MAN.
So yes, not getting PEK this year is disappointing, but, on the whole, there is still a few possibilities to keep us on the positive vibes.
Join Date: Jan 2013
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And another one to ponder, didn't Charlie Cornish also say quite recently 'we will soon be announcing a long haul route only available at Heathrow currently'. (cant remember when that was, Im sure someone can link that article for me)
What happened to that? Was that again referencing Beijing? Be interested to know what that was all about, as, I don't recall any routes being announced since that quote.
What happened to that? Was that again referencing Beijing? Be interested to know what that was all about, as, I don't recall any routes being announced since that quote.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I hope the new CEO is open to options for all aspects of growth .......
My gut feeling is that Manchester sees itself as serving an outbound clientele, with MUFC/MCFC, Retail, Lake District, plus lots more etc there is much untapped potential in the inbound market.
AND what of cargo, some nice increases predicted at our "ugly sister", with China Southern and Qatar. That would fill some gaps up in the PM but no real mention of that here.
Is this market totally lost to EMA and STN and of course our pax holds ?
My gut feeling is that Manchester sees itself as serving an outbound clientele, with MUFC/MCFC, Retail, Lake District, plus lots more etc there is much untapped potential in the inbound market.
AND what of cargo, some nice increases predicted at our "ugly sister", with China Southern and Qatar. That would fill some gaps up in the PM but no real mention of that here.
Is this market totally lost to EMA and STN and of course our pax holds ?
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Bagso, I guess many see Manchester as a "been there, done that" destination. What Manchester and its suroundings has to offer for a normal leisure traveller is limited - only people with special interests like football will visit Manchester again and again.
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It's not surprising if MAN's management sees the airport as serving a primarily outbound market - 80% of its pax are UK residents after all. By all means try to boost inbound tourism, but never forget your bread and butter market.